Guild Wars 2

Empyre.2531:

Trueshots.9456:

@Empyre, thief can’t cap in spvp in stealth. they must be in the open.

That was exactly my point, if thief you want the high mobile builds. Perma stealth thieves are useless (more or less) in spvp, that’s why the problem/annoyance we face in wvw isn’t gonna be addressed by ANet.

It’s only an annoyance though…. it’s not like thieves are the best in 1v1, group fights, defending, capping, insert other more important WvW things here than you not getting a loot bag, etc. It’s also not like you can’t prevent or counter all of their stealth other than blinding powder…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Haha no i am an Engineer. My ele would be 1 shot by that attack :/
My Engineer has just over 22,000 health, 1,500 Toughness

You are an engi, and you have the guts to complain about thieves?
You are playing the most (atm) broken class.
If you die against a thief you must be really bad or you don’t have any idea on how to properly build your engi.
So, before starting other QQ threads, go learn your class.

I have only one problem with thieves. They are annoying.
Almost every day I found at least one perma stealth thief trying to kill me. He fail. But he just keeps following me for several minutes doing kitten damage but slowing me down.
Annoying, that is what thieves are.

Daendur.2357:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Haha no i am an Engineer. My ele would be 1 shot by that attack :/
My Engineer has just over 22,000 health, 1,500 Toughness

You are an engi, and you have the guts to complain about thieves?
You are playing the most (atm) broken class.
If you die against a thief you must be really bad or you don’t have any idea on how to properly build your engi.
So, before starting other QQ threads, go learn your class.

Dude eng is hardly the most broken class atm. They are a solid thief counter, but it’s not like eng doesn’t have counters of its own. Heck, I wouldn’t call any class broken right now, but some are a little to strong in a few ways and could use some tweaking (and I wouldn’t even put eng in that category)… but str8 up broken? Nah. Sound like a L2P issue.

Aberrant.6749:

Empyre.2531:

Trueshots.9456:

@Empyre, thief can’t cap in spvp in stealth. they must be in the open.

That was exactly my point, if thief you want the high mobile builds. Perma stealth thieves are useless (more or less) in spvp, that’s why the problem/annoyance we face in wvw isn’t gonna be addressed by ANet.

It’s only an annoyance though…. it’s not like thieves are the best in 1v1, group fights, defending, capping, insert other more important WvW things here than you not getting a loot bag, etc. It’s also not like you can’t prevent or counter all of their stealth other than blinding powder…

Yep. A skilled thief can reset a fight to 100% hp at any point she/he wishes if running builds focused around that (regen on stealth, regen in stealth, 4+ skills to go invis and stack further invis from there). It’s not as much damage in a single burst as other builds but it will surely wear you down, while the thief has a free ~1.5-2k heal every time the revealed buff is gone while still sporting 2.8k armor and 15+k hp. Again, only in wvw.

Empyre.2531:

Aberrant.6749:

Empyre.2531:

Trueshots.9456:

@Empyre, thief can’t cap in spvp in stealth. they must be in the open.

That was exactly my point, if thief you want the high mobile builds. Perma stealth thieves are useless (more or less) in spvp, that’s why the problem/annoyance we face in wvw isn’t gonna be addressed by ANet.

It’s only an annoyance though…. it’s not like thieves are the best in 1v1, group fights, defending, capping, insert other more important WvW things here than you not getting a loot bag, etc. It’s also not like you can’t prevent or counter all of their stealth other than blinding powder…

Yep. A skilled thief can reset a fight to 100% hp at any point she/he wishes if running builds focused around that (regen on stealth, regen in stealth, 4+ skills to go invis and stack further invis from there). It’s not as much damage in a single burst as other builds but it will surely wear you down, while the thief has a free ~1.5-2k heal every time the revealed buff is gone while still sporting 2.8k armor and 15+k hp. Again, only in wvw.

You do know you can counter all stealths other than blinding powder… which has a decent cooldown… right? It is somewhat class dependent on how many you can counter though. What stealth skill are you having problems with specifically and what class do you use? If it’s one of the ones that I play I can help you. If it’s not one that I play you can ask in your class forums and I’m SURE they can help you out.

Btw I’ve never been worn down by a stealth spamming thief. What normally happens is they just run away as they aren’t making any real progress and they are just putting themselves in danger. Heck, I often allow them to get me to around 50% hp just to see if they’ll over-commit lol.

Aberrant.6749:

Dude eng is hardly the most broken class atm. They are a solid thief counter, but it’s not like eng doesn’t have counters of its own. Heck, I wouldn’t call any class broken right now, but some are a little to strong in a few ways and could use some tweaking (and I wouldn’t even put eng in that category)… but str8 up broken? Nah. Sound like a L2P issue.

Condition builds are over the top. They have to fix the way conditions work.
A power build requires power, precision, critical damage, while a condition build requires only condition damage leaving room for toughness and vitality.
+ perplexity runes are broken aswell.
Some professions can abuse that and engi is one of those

Daendur.2357:

Aberrant.6749:

Dude eng is hardly the most broken class atm. They are a solid thief counter, but it’s not like eng doesn’t have counters of its own. Heck, I wouldn’t call any class broken right now, but some are a little to strong in a few ways and could use some tweaking (and I wouldn’t even put eng in that category)… but str8 up broken? Nah. Sound like a L2P issue.

Condition builds are over the top. They have to fix the way conditions work.
A power build requires power, precision, critical damage, while a condition build requires only condition damage leaving room for toughness and vitality.
+ perplexity runes are broken aswell.
Some professions can abuse that and engi is one of those

I don’t find cond over the top myself, but I have found it to be more necessary now to bring more things do deal with conditions as well as avoid them from being applied in the first place.

As far as cond damage only needing that stat… there is a large tradeoff between direct damage which has the damage applied instantly and conditions which deal it over time and can be removed and tossed back at the player that sent them to you. For that sort of gameplay it’s not unreasonable to give more stats that work well with attrition.

Plus you’re going to either give up power (thus be completely dependant on condition damage) or precision (no on crit procs/critical hit damage). You still can’t have it all.

Also say you’re running a power build. You start getting hit with conds. You can pop your food to reduce it 40% at any time you choose (I do this often on my power mes). Then when you’re not facing conds you can use your normal food. There is nothing out there for direct damage that reduces it THAT much. That’s a pretty kitten sweet deal right there.

Perplexity runes are kittened and need to be nerfed I 100% agree. However, that’s an item balance thing and not a class balance thing. I refuse to use them on my eng in any build and have no respect for people that do use them.

Condition eng hasn’t changed much at all since launch other than the runes. I still get hate from people who do the party invite despite me not using perplexity though. I get a lot thinking that I’m using perplexity just because of prybar and static shot xD

Aberrant.6749:

Empyre.2531:

Aberrant.6749:

Empyre.2531:

Trueshots.9456:

@Empyre, thief can’t cap in spvp in stealth. they must be in the open.

That was exactly my point, if thief you want the high mobile builds. Perma stealth thieves are useless (more or less) in spvp, that’s why the problem/annoyance we face in wvw isn’t gonna be addressed by ANet.

It’s only an annoyance though…. it’s not like thieves are the best in 1v1, group fights, defending, capping, insert other more important WvW things here than you not getting a loot bag, etc. It’s also not like you can’t prevent or counter all of their stealth other than blinding powder…

Yep. A skilled thief can reset a fight to 100% hp at any point she/he wishes if running builds focused around that (regen on stealth, regen in stealth, 4+ skills to go invis and stack further invis from there). It’s not as much damage in a single burst as other builds but it will surely wear you down, while the thief has a free ~1.5-2k heal every time the revealed buff is gone while still sporting 2.8k armor and 15+k hp. Again, only in wvw.

You do know you can counter all stealths other than blinding powder… which has a decent cooldown… right? It is somewhat class dependent on how many you can counter though. What stealth skill are you having problems with specifically and what class do you use? If it’s one of the ones that I play I can help you. If it’s not one that I play you can ask in your class forums and I’m SURE they can help you out.

Btw I’ve never been worn down by a stealth spamming thief. What normally happens is they just run away as they aren’t making any real progress and they are just putting themselves in danger. Heck, I often allow them to get me to around 50% hp just to see if they’ll over-commit lol.

As if you can counter CnD on mobs, grey mobs. Teleporting away to do such etc…
Still, it’s an annoyance more then a problem (and certainly far from game breaking).

Empyre.2531:

Aberrant.6749:

Empyre.2531:

Aberrant.6749:

Empyre.2531:

Trueshots.9456:

@Empyre, thief can’t cap in spvp in stealth. they must be in the open.

That was exactly my point, if thief you want the high mobile builds. Perma stealth thieves are useless (more or less) in spvp, that’s why the problem/annoyance we face in wvw isn’t gonna be addressed by ANet.

It’s only an annoyance though…. it’s not like thieves are the best in 1v1, group fights, defending, capping, insert other more important WvW things here than you not getting a loot bag, etc. It’s also not like you can’t prevent or counter all of their stealth other than blinding powder…

Yep. A skilled thief can reset a fight to 100% hp at any point she/he wishes if running builds focused around that (regen on stealth, regen in stealth, 4+ skills to go invis and stack further invis from there). It’s not as much damage in a single burst as other builds but it will surely wear you down, while the thief has a free ~1.5-2k heal every time the revealed buff is gone while still sporting 2.8k armor and 15+k hp. Again, only in wvw.

You do know you can counter all stealths other than blinding powder… which has a decent cooldown… right? It is somewhat class dependent on how many you can counter though. What stealth skill are you having problems with specifically and what class do you use? If it’s one of the ones that I play I can help you. If it’s not one that I play you can ask in your class forums and I’m SURE they can help you out.

Btw I’ve never been worn down by a stealth spamming thief. What normally happens is they just run away as they aren’t making any real progress and they are just putting themselves in danger. Heck, I often allow them to get me to around 50% hp just to see if they’ll over-commit lol.

As if you can counter CnD on mobs, grey mobs. Teleporting away to do such etc…
Still, it’s an annoyance more then a problem (and certainly far from game breaking).

Why are you fighting players near mobs regardless of their class? o.O Do you want them to have a chance at getting a rally off of a moa?

Just move away from the mobs. If they chase you then no more problem… if they don’t… no more problem…

At WORST you could kill the stupid mobs while you wait for them to come out of stealth. If you’re good you could use the mobs to bodyblock a backstab and have them help you take them down.

As far as teleporting away… who cares? Any class can be built to be able to get away and they don’t have other limitations that the thief class does.

Thieves are annoying but you shouldn’t have too many problems dealing with and killing your typical WvW thief. There are very few in WvW who are actually good at the class (those ones will get away, but again… who cares).

I would still like to know the class you’re playing if you wouldn’t mind sharing. I might be able to give you some good pointers on fighting thieves.

Handin.4032:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Corvindi.5734:

Last time I was in WvW (admittedly awhile back) Mesmers scared me far more than thieves and they have some stealth and mobility, too.

Mesmer is quite slow really, in combat you can easily out run them. Focus being the main swiftness skill. They have blinks and such but they arent that great.

I actually like Mesmer stealth – its not to much and its not to little. Even better its more of a “use at right time” type of stealth rather then spamming it.

The moment you said blinks arent great, I just stopped reading, since it was very laughable.

On an engi, there is A LOT you can do against thieves. And as an ele well…you have PLENTY of survival abilities…great mobility and heals in combat! Thief stealth, while annoying, isn’t OP. It’s just a pain in the butt. However, most thieves Ive faced run off the moment you hit them hard a few times.

But Blink isnt that great, i take Decoy, Mirror Images and such over Blink i just never have been fond of it Its okay during movement but in combat i just find it lacklustre compared to what else the other utilities offer.

Maybe its just my build that it just doesnt suit. As for Ele, Yeah shame they all have insane cool downs and lock you out of the damaging attunements for up to 15 seconds.

Though i have less trouble on my Ele then i do on my Engineer. As soon as i see one i am ready with Shocking Aura. I find the Air auto attack great, same with Fire auto for hitting Thieves in stealth.

The problem is that they have 100% of the benefit if they see you first, no downside what so ever If its say 2 other classes that cant stay in stealth for ever when they see each other at least they can get ready that little bit better

Thieves just jump in Backstab if they arent dead jump about spamming attacks blindly until they are and if they do survive that jump into stealth, run reset the fight and do it over again knowing they have cool downs and the thief just has Initiative. Another failed experiment by Anet, they should have just been given cool downs like the rest of us.

Hmm, that might have come across wrong. I have no problem with thieves, I only see the point that people make when they say perma stealth is annoying in wvw.

I’m playing mesmer for solo roaming atm, but never sticking to any class and prolly made the mistake of bringing a spvp build to wvw instead of using stealth myself too (e.g. Prismatic Understanding, kinda the stealth regen of thieves just for mesmer).
And the good thieves, as you said, are rare, even more annoying if they run perma stealth builds basically nullyfying what could be a good fight.

Saying that thief teleport is equal to other classes teleport is just wrong. Shadow step, Infiltrator’s strike, Infiltrator’s arrow is much more then e.g. the mesmer could pursuit at any given time (blink, forward phase retreat).

Often you can’t pick where fights take place, then you gotta take what you got and those grey mobs are everywhere.

Empyre.2531:

Hmm, that might have come across wrong. I have no problem with thieves, I only see the point that people make when they say perma stealth is annoying in wvw.
I’m playing mesmer for solo roaming atm, but never sticking to any class and prolly made the mistake of bringing a spvp build to wvw instead of using stealth myself too (e.g. Prismatic Understanding, kinda the stealth regen of thieves just for mesmer).
And the good thieves, as you said, are rare, even more annoying if they run perma stealth builds basically nullyfying what could be a good fight.

I agree that perma stealth is annoying, but idk what they could do to stop perma stealth that wouldn’t cripple the thief class (which isn’t in the best of standing as is).

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say. Text can be tricky like that some times.

Seigfried.5938:

16k?! ROFL what are you wearing if anything at all?? L2P without a glass cannon setup.

Not Glass Cannon, 23,000 health and around 1,400-1,500Toughness

Aberrant.6749:

I agree that perma stealth is annoying, but idk what they could do to stop perma stealth that wouldn’t cripple the thief class (which isn’t in the best of standing as is).

What i think they should do, reduce the stealth and damage but increase the Toughness/armor. Stealth is just to powerful – Healing, Removing Conditions, 100% crit chance, regaining initiative which would be fine IF they could spam it. Make it so that stealth can not be stacked and reduce the number of skills that offer it.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Aberrant.6749:

I agree that perma stealth is annoying, but idk what they could do to stop perma stealth that wouldn’t cripple the thief class (which isn’t in the best of standing as is).

What i think they should do, reduce the stealth and damage but increase the Toughness/armor. Stealth is just to powerful – Healing, Removing Conditions, 100% crit chance, regaining initiative which would be fine IF they could spam it. Make it so that stealth can not be stacked and reduce the number of skills that offer it.

The downside to thief is that your defenses are too tied to stealth to limit it that much… plus SR works by pulsing and stacking stealth… so many things would need to be overhauled.

I’m not saying it wouldn’t be a good thing… I don’t see the devs willing to put that much time into it unfortunately. Although they did say a while ago they wanted to give thief more abilities to help them stay in the fight… I haven’t seen much of anything come around to help in that department. I mean… that’s one of the big reasons I stopped playing my thief. In a group fight you kinda discount the thief as even being there to a large extent. That just sucks for everyone involved.

As far as the damage… to hit those large numbers the thief had to give up all defences in order to do that. You can do similar things on any class. If you had blocked/invulned/cc-ed/whatevered the thief he would have been unable to do diddly squat until all of his cd’s recharged. That’s a pretty large price to pay for one chance at a gank.

Aberrant.6749:

The downside to thief is that your defenses are too tied to stealth to limit it that much… plus SR works by pulsing and stacking stealth… so many things would need to be overhauled.

I’m not saying it wouldn’t be a good thing… I don’t see the devs willing to put that much time into it unfortunately. Although they did say a while ago they wanted to give thief more abilities to help them stay in the fight… I haven’t seen much of anything come around to help in that department. I mean… that’s one of the big reasons I stopped playing my thief. In a group fight you kinda discount the thief as even being there to a large extent. That just sucks for everyone involved.

Of course AoE skills that pulse as part of its mechanic would be left alone, its the fact they can use all the Stealth skills right after each other stacking the stealth – it is that which needs to be stopped.

Well i think it is about time they did some overhaul work on quite a few classes. Ele need some work as well, Engi i think it is about time that getting Ascended weapons were actually worth it seeing as the damage stats dont affect kit damage.

So it would be nice if they just went through every class and just tweaked them/fixed them all. Of course this is Anet so not a chance that will happen….but i can hope

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Aberrant.6749:

The downside to thief is that your defenses are too tied to stealth to limit it that much… plus SR works by pulsing and stacking stealth… so many things would need to be overhauled.

I’m not saying it wouldn’t be a good thing… I don’t see the devs willing to put that much time into it unfortunately. Although they did say a while ago they wanted to give thief more abilities to help them stay in the fight… I haven’t seen much of anything come around to help in that department. I mean… that’s one of the big reasons I stopped playing my thief. In a group fight you kinda discount the thief as even being there to a large extent. That just sucks for everyone involved.

Of course AoE skills that pulse as part of its mechanic would be left alone, its the fact they can use all the Stealth skills right after each other stacking the stealth – it is that which needs to be stopped.

Well i think it is about time they did some overhaul work on quite a few classes. Ele need some work as well, Engi i think it is about time that getting Ascended weapons were actually worth it seeing as the damage stats dont affect kit damage.

So it would be nice if they just went through every class and just tweaked them/fixed them all. Of course this is Anet so not a chance that will happen….but i can hope

Out of all of the classes, to change thief would take the most work. OMG yes please make my kits scale with my weapon damage btw lol.

1. Make thief.
2. Roam and kill solo people.
3. Profit.

I did that and roam with my thief. Can also join zerg and be spammable blast finisher and kill people that wander out of pain train.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Seigfried.5938:

16k?! ROFL what are you wearing if anything at all?? L2P without a glass cannon setup.

Not Glass Cannon, 23,000 health and around 1,400-1,500Toughness

16k not possible.

Solution, stealth as an escape method fine, give them a debuff that makes them not able to attack 30 or what ever seconds after they did their stealth.
They are pretty weak right now, thiefs I play against have to do cheap tactics like backstabbing players who just battled with others so they are on low health or skills cooldown. Annoying and not a fun thing in my book.

The 3 main issues with wvw thieves which could be fixed are

Perma-stealth:
Change heartseeker into a combo finisher Whirl , or change the 2 free initiative regained on stealth to have a 10 sec Cooldown.

Perma-cure:
Change condition cure in stealth so that it doesnt instantly cure every time you refresh stealth, so that 3 heartseeekers in a blackpowder field doesnt instantly remove 3 conditions as well as removing a 4th 3 sec later. This is far too much condition removal on demand without sacrificing any utility slots.

Perma-blind:
Change the AoE blind on stealth to have a 20 sec cooldown, an AOE blind every 3 sec is far too strong. Most active blind skills are single target with 20sec + cooldowns.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Oozo.7856:

The fundamental problem is that it takes far more skill to kill a good thief than it does to play one. The windows of opportunity to kill one are narrow, while their margin for error is substantial.

Yep. The amount of thieves i have seen just go around spamming the same attack and still kill people is very high. What other class can kill a class just using the same attack over and over and over.

Stealth is WAY to much reward and no risk, if you are losing you can just stealth, run and reset…

What other class only has one attack skill, or one condi skill or or one of each on thier weapon bar? Their weapon skills aren’t like other class’ where most skills are damage, usually only one skill on thier weapon set is damage focused, compared to say Warrior GS where all thier skills are damage focused. Also, thanks to initiative, unlike other classes, thieves can’t simply swap to another weapon set, when they’ve spent thier init, where as all other classes have the capacity to endlessly blow thier weapon CDs and swap to another weapon, and have at least some skills off CD.

I dont use Traveler and i dont have 10, 20 or 30 into Inventions. You you think that someone HAS to go into there just for ONE class being balanced?

and as i have said, for SOME it might be nice, for most its not i would take Decoy over it all day every day for example. That is 20 seconds, now try doing that permanently…

Maybe you will realize that your engineer has everything he needs to kill thieves.

Your mesmer sure has.

As your Necro.

If you’re having trouble with thieves on an engie, sad to say, you aren’t that good. I generally go 20/20/0/30/0 on my engie with a mix of Rabid and apothecary, and I have no trouble against Thieves. (Nor did I have trouble with them when I took a level 3 engie into WvW for funzies)

Dual.8953:

If you’re having trouble with thieves on an engie, sad to say, you aren’t that good. I generally go 20/20/0/30/0 on my engie with a mix of Rabid and apothecary, and I have no trouble against Thieves. (Nor did I have trouble with them when I took a level 3 engie into WvW for funzies)

I know i am not the best, but when the fight is won thanks to the first attack doing 16,000 damage then it doesnt really take much. I can hold my own against all other classes but no counter when you are seen first to a thief.

At least with other classes you have those few seconds to get ready. You are seen by a thief and they are in stealth – Boom Back stab, Heartseeker spam and then dead. How do you counter a burst like that?

I have killed plenty of them – its the ones that spam the same attack over and over, jump into stealth gaining all them benefits and then them either running away or just repeating the same thing over after they have reset the fight and you are left with loads of cool downs while they have none (on weapons)

Thief QQ = L2P issue… nothing to see here move along ( not a thief).

nihasa.5067:

As an engineer I find thieves to be the most annoying class present on the eternal battlegrounds……… I still think that stealth mechanic is a little bit broken. It saves the thief from dying way too many times ……….. Stealth is the perfect mechanic to reset a bad fight and helps thieves get a free get out of jail card. This I find to be the only real problem. With other classes I do not encounter this issue. But thieves are something else.

Hmmm so as an Eng, instead of allowing a thief to reset a fight. You would rather make him stand and fight you in the spot you threw your elite skill along with a net turret or some other aoe, plus you spamming grenades? Yea that sounds exactly the kind of fight i want to stay around for. Why in the world would a thief stay around while getting owned by your OP elite skill and your insane grenade dps.
On the other hand I see it fair that you must stand there, not use healing skills, not use grenades, and not bunker down on your elite skill…that seems fair to me…..

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Dual.8953:

If you’re having trouble with thieves on an engie, sad to say, you aren’t that good. I generally go 20/20/0/30/0 on my engie with a mix of Rabid and apothecary, and I have no trouble against Thieves. (Nor did I have trouble with them when I took a level 3 engie into WvW for funzies)

I know i am not the best, but when the fight is won thanks to the first attack doing 16,000 damage then it doesnt really take much. I can hold my own against all other classes but no counter when you are seen first to a thief.

At least with other classes you have those few seconds to get ready. You are seen by a thief and they are in stealth – Boom Back stab, Heartseeker spam and then dead. How do you counter a burst like that?

I have killed plenty of them – its the ones that spam the same attack over and over, jump into stealth gaining all them benefits and then them either running away or just repeating the same thing over after they have reset the fight and you are left with loads of cool downs while they have none (on weapons)

Just want to say, if a thief is backstabbing you for 16k then he doesn’t have 30 points in Shadow Arts for all those neat on stealth traits you mention. He also has like 2k armor and 14-16k hp at most. Still I’ve never seen a backstab hit that high on a non-upscale. I was however killshotted with 2700 armor for 18k the other day from a warrior on a hill I could not see which was a 1 shot kill.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I know i am not the best, but when the fight is won thanks to the first attack doing 16,000 damage then it doesnt really take much. I can hold my own against all other classes but no counter when you are seen first to a thief.

I have killed plenty of them – its the ones that spam the same attack over and over, jump into stealth gaining all them benefits and then them either running away or just repeating the same thing over after they have reset the fight and you are left with loads of cool downs while they have none (on weapons)

All these “expert” and those shown in video has one things in common that you don’t have.
1)They see the thief and strike before the thief can react
Most of the thief when moving around do not have the skill as those who attack.
One of them in video above use a shortbow.
2)the thief stay and fight to the death. Some thieves prefer to fight and die rather than running away. Not saying good or bad,it just a choice
3)Thieves are impatient and jump into a trap.
Due to server lag, in WvW you can’t avoid the steal, C&D, BS attack. (due to less lag/smaller map in spvp , it is possible to avoid that )

stealth means nothing when you’re an engi with perplexity runes

Da Sonic.6521:

A thief who is stealthed is doing no damage to you. A thief who isn’t stealthed with “obscene damage” is about as durable as wet tissue paper.

There are a vast amount of skills with which to hit a stealthed Thief. All ground targetable AoEs, many cleaving auto-attacks, channeled attacks that are cast before the thief enters stealth.

Is stealth strong? Yes.
Is Death Shroud strong? Yes.
Are Eviscerate, clones, and (properly managed) pets strong? Yes.

Is there a counterplay mechanic to all of these strong things that make classes different?

I think you’ll find the answer is yes.

Also, my boss would like me to provide the information that you are approximately the 160,647th person to make a “[Class] is [Overpowered for some reason]” thread, and the 23,195th one to make one specific to thieves.

LOL. I love this.

Roll thief → Shadowstep to opponent and crit backstab for 7k → stealth and shadow return to safe distance → Watch 7 opponents swing at the air around them as if attacked by bees.

Laugh hysterically.

Repeat.

KOK.2650:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I know i am not the best, but when the fight is won thanks to the first attack doing 16,000 damage then it doesnt really take much. I can hold my own against all other classes but no counter when you are seen first to a thief.

I have killed plenty of them – its the ones that spam the same attack over and over, jump into stealth gaining all them benefits and then them either running away or just repeating the same thing over after they have reset the fight and you are left with loads of cool downs while they have none (on weapons)

All these “expert” and those shown in video has one things in common that you don’t have.
1)They see the thief and strike before the thief can react
Most of the thief when moving around do not have the skill as those who attack.
One of them in video above use a shortbow.
2)the thief stay and fight to the death. Some thieves prefer to fight and die rather than running away. Not saying good or bad,it just a choice
3)Thieves are impatient and jump into a trap.
Due to server lag, in WvW you can’t avoid the steal, C&D, BS attack. (due to less lag/smaller map in spvp , it is possible to avoid that )

How do i see a Thief while they are IN stealth?
No trouble when you BOTH see each other, it becomes VERY one sided when 1 can see the other and walk up behind them and deal silly amount of damage instantly.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

KOK.2650:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I know i am not the best, but when the fight is won thanks to the first attack doing 16,000 damage then it doesnt really take much. I can hold my own against all other classes but no counter when you are seen first to a thief.

I have killed plenty of them – its the ones that spam the same attack over and over, jump into stealth gaining all them benefits and then them either running away or just repeating the same thing over after they have reset the fight and you are left with loads of cool downs while they have none (on weapons)

All these “expert” and those shown in video has one things in common that you don’t have.
1)They see the thief and strike before the thief can react
Most of the thief when moving around do not have the skill as those who attack.
One of them in video above use a shortbow.
2)the thief stay and fight to the death. Some thieves prefer to fight and die rather than running away. Not saying good or bad,it just a choice
3)Thieves are impatient and jump into a trap.
Due to server lag, in WvW you can’t avoid the steal, C&D, BS attack. (due to less lag/smaller map in spvp , it is possible to avoid that )

How do i see a Thief while they are IN stealth?
No trouble when you BOTH see each other, it becomes VERY one sided when 1 can see the other and walk up behind them and deal silly amount of damage instantly.

Thieves hold most of their steath for combat, or about to go into combat. They cannot sit around for minutes at a time in the open field in stealth. If you are looking around when roaming, you can almost always spot the thief coming at you. You might not know he’s a thief, but you’ll get a clue when he disappears right before he gets to you.

As for your seeming lack of understanding about blink and mesmer mobility…mesmers have OUTSTANDING mobility in combat (not out). What build for mesmer are you running? I’m currently running a stealth+interupt build, using s/p+GS and blink+decoy+arcane thiever+MI. With a combination of those I can survive many thief attacks, though there are a few skilled ones who still smoke me. I’ve also had no problems with thieves with reflect builds, or glamour builds (when they were still run). You can even do really well against thieves with phantasms, since they (especially duelist) tend to follow the thief in combat and will fire the moment it pops out of stealth.

I think youre biggest problem is your builds. What are they for mesmer and engi? WvW is something where you really have to put care into your build. For many classes, 1 build won’t be good for everything.

Most thieves should not be an issue for a mesmer with a good roaming build. If you’re going to roam, you have to TRAIT. You cannot just pick a pure dps build and expect to roam..you’ll most likely get smoked by any class that can kite or manuever you. Mesmers especially have some great mechanics built into them for dealing with people like this. With the interupts, phantasms, blinds, mobility you should be able to deal with them. However, if you’re a pure dps shatter build (just an example), a thief will probably kill you. Mesmers are squishy, so you HAVE to have that toughness and vit (I run rabid armor right now with Sentinel stat accessories). Make sure too your armor build is appropriate for your trait build. WvW is a lot more sensitive to builds than PvE (I’d even argue sPvp..).

Aberrant.6749:

Zacchary.6183:

Aberrant.6749:

Oozo.7856:

The fundamental problem is that it takes far more skill to kill a good thief than it does to play one. The windows of opportunity to kill one are narrow, while their margin for error is substantial.

Thief has a lower skill ceiling as well. You obviously don’t understand game design if you think that this pairing is a bad thing. It gives new players something they can pick up and feel strong/competitive with… but at the same time there are more powerful classes to have with you in a fight (but take more pratice/skill to use).

If people still don’t understand… here is a very good video on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

It has a low floor, not a low ceiling. A noob can make one, copy the flavour of the month and kill people.

However, thieves will get wrecked or flee from decent/experienced players. The reason here is because thieves raw power stops progressing earlier than most professions and continues on in the realm of utility as a thief’s skill level increases. The utility side of our skills is what makes the thief devastating in knowledgeable hands.

In addition to this, thieves have to manage a universal resource to these utility-heavy skills so just spamming 1 skill will again only do so much.

EDIT: Another thing that contributes to the thief’s high skill ceiling is the fact that they are squishy, have almost no damage/CC mitigation and below average healing/cleansing (unless using s/x).

Thieves do have evades up the wazoo but since evasion periods blink in and out they can fail. They also require timing unlike mitigations which are mostly fire before and forget until off cooldown.

I would argue that it has both a low floor and ceeling.

Once another player gets above a certain skill level it becomes very hard to beat them even if the thief is equally skilled. That’s when the thief has hit the ceiling.

It would be like saying E-Honda has a high ceiling because you would need a lot of skill to beat other characters with him… and I disagree with that. Instead I see it as you’ve reached that character’s limit and are trying to push beyond that with little success (because you’ve hit the ceiling). That’s just semantics though.

A low skill cieling means that it doesn’t take much to master it but that isn’t the case though. You are probably confusing it with the low skill floor where it doesn’t take as much skill to compete.

sometimes I play warrior, when I want to hurt pplz hard with my hammer, other times I play guard when I wanna be an invincible healing swaggernaut. Sometimes I play engi when Im lazy and wanna kite. but when I wanna be a god… I play thief. 16k vit, 2.9k armor 115% crit damage, 3.2k attack and 100% crit chance from stealth anyone? lets not forget crit damage/power food and bloodlust with a sharpening stone now

Handin.4032:

As for your seeming lack of understanding about blink and mesmer mobility…mesmers have OUTSTANDING mobility in combat (not out). What build for mesmer are you running? I’m currently running a stealth+interupt build, using s/p+GS and blink+decoy+arcane thiever+MI. With a combination of those I can survive many thief attacks, though there are a few skilled ones who still smoke me. I’ve also had no problems with thieves with reflect builds, or glamour builds (when they were still run). You can even do really well against thieves with phantasms, since they (especially duelist) tend to follow the thief in combat and will fire the moment it pops out of stealth.

Like i said for SOME people it might be great for me, i think its weak. Dont like it and never have done. I take Focus for Out of combat mobility and i have clones, Phantams, ALOT of cripple and Decoy for inside combat i take the staff as well for that quick get out button.

I run Scepter+Pistol and Staff in a condition build.

Also as i stated i have no worries with Thieves on my Mesmer, sure i might die to them the odd time but i kill more then i die or it ends in a draw. Ele i can normally survive long enough to escapee with D/D and ALOT of Toughness and might kill the odd one with ALOT of stuns and auto attacks to force them out of stealth. Though Engineer i dunno i just cant seem to survive if they see me and i dont see them i am pretty much dead. Though if i SEE them coming and then i am more prepared for the attack.

Where as on mesmer i have plenty of skills that i can press as a counter from Decoy, Phase Retreat and Distortion. I see them on Ele and i go into Air ready for Static Aura. I just dont seem to have that quick press get out skill on Engineer, Rocket Boots fails quite often.

No. I main an Engie who eats thieves for breakfast, I was laughing at people who play thieves, use this tactic and then talk about AoEs and Cleaves on the forums to further perpetuate the myth that you could hit a thief who is smart enough to use shadowstep/return. I just imagine them, in stealth, just over the rise laughing themselves into a trolly fervor at all the people swinging at empty air.

Trueshots.9456:

OMG this guy is an Eng, who right now is one of the most dominate classes out there. Not to be kitteny here but I run a p/d build cond damage, toughness, vit max. I have 1900 tough and 21500 health. I very rarely die against any amount of numbers and maybe once or twice daily in a 1v1.
I fought a Eng today that threw a grenade at me once and i was put to 10k health from full health and then immobilized me and hit me again with grenade til I was at 3k. I stealthed and ran like a little girl!
You’re doing something wrong if you’re not facerolling with an Eng right now. Take a look on Eng forums everyone says grenades are op, so i’d suggest you trying them out.

I laughed at this. Did you just insinuate that no amount of players can regularly kill you? Then did you go on to say that the most OP (in your opinion) class in the game was so OP that he couldn’t kill you 1v1?

Because that is what I read. Thieves you have to understand people hate stealth. Is this your first thief class in an MMO? This argument has been going on since the dawn of MMOs.

Good thieves don’t need perma stealth. I welcome a reduction of stealth on my thief with open arms since I spec evade. Scrub thieves need perma stealth as a crutch to troll.

I play thief cause I love to stealth and spawn camp lowbie , true story.

What I dont like is you dont know if you hit them or not when they are stealthed. Should see a number or something.

Kilger.5490:

What I dont like is you dont know if you hit them or not when they are stealthed. Should see a number or something.

I know when I hit one is when my auto attack chain goes up a step, usually.

Zacchary.6183:

Aberrant.6749:

Zacchary.6183:

Aberrant.6749:

Oozo.7856:

The fundamental problem is that it takes far more skill to kill a good thief than it does to play one. The windows of opportunity to kill one are narrow, while their margin for error is substantial.

Thief has a lower skill ceiling as well. You obviously don’t understand game design if you think that this pairing is a bad thing. It gives new players something they can pick up and feel strong/competitive with… but at the same time there are more powerful classes to have with you in a fight (but take more pratice/skill to use).

If people still don’t understand… here is a very good video on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

It has a low floor, not a low ceiling. A noob can make one, copy the flavour of the month and kill people.

However, thieves will get wrecked or flee from decent/experienced players. The reason here is because thieves raw power stops progressing earlier than most professions and continues on in the realm of utility as a thief’s skill level increases. The utility side of our skills is what makes the thief devastating in knowledgeable hands.

In addition to this, thieves have to manage a universal resource to these utility-heavy skills so just spamming 1 skill will again only do so much.

EDIT: Another thing that contributes to the thief’s high skill ceiling is the fact that they are squishy, have almost no damage/CC mitigation and below average healing/cleansing (unless using s/x).

Thieves do have evades up the wazoo but since evasion periods blink in and out they can fail. They also require timing unlike mitigations which are mostly fire before and forget until off cooldown.

I would argue that it has both a low floor and ceeling.

Once another player gets above a certain skill level it becomes very hard to beat them even if the thief is equally skilled. That’s when the thief has hit the ceiling.

It would be like saying E-Honda has a high ceiling because you would need a lot of skill to beat other characters with him… and I disagree with that. Instead I see it as you’ve reached that character’s limit and are trying to push beyond that with little success (because you’ve hit the ceiling). That’s just semantics though.

A low skill cieling means that it doesn’t take much to master it but that isn’t the case though. You are probably confusing it with the low skill floor where it doesn’t take as much skill to compete.

Skill ceiling = when it maxes out in terms of skill→power. Yes you can eek out a little bit more here (just like with all classes it takes ever increasing skill to keep getting more out of them) and there but thief is pretty much done with the vast majority of that pretty early on (especially when compared to most other classes). The floor is just what it takes to use it at all.

I’m a pretty nooby engineer (admittingly) and I run normally either an HGH/FT build or an interupt/perp build and I rarely have problems with thieves. Engi’s have plenty of survivability. You don’t necessarily need mobility to beat a thief (maybe to catch if you’re dead set on chasing one), but you need a bit of survivability. A well built engi shouldn’t really have a problem with a thief…

To be honest the only thing overpowered obout stealth is that they can run away and you cant kill them.Stealth thief play is annoying but i have to agree that scenarios that at 1st seem impossible to win/survive, with experience they become almost a reflex to counter.

Also experience teached me to fear a a non stealth thief and nevet a stealth one , except if 2v1 or more where that burst can really hurt if you are busy countering another player too.That is where they excel, not in 1v1s, pretty much like the new (b) stun 100b warriors.
I always roamed only with my warrior and even since release i barely had any problems once i switched from my pve build.Once you get some cc and armor you are fine but the trick is to use it smartly and have patience to use the right skills.If you panic and burn all cds basicly the thief won, or anyone else for the matter.

S/d needs a nerf though:D

I am really concerned that people in this thread talk about 15-16k BS crits…. i mean seriously. You would have to be naked and traited for 0 defense while fighting a full glass cannon thief that can get 2 shotted himself.

On a squishy target i crit about 6k or 7k on my thief. I don’t usually care about threads like this since i love my Thief. But blatant lies to trash another class is pretty gross.

Heizero.9183:

I am really concerned that people in this thread talk about 15-16k BS crits…. i mean seriously. You would have to be naked and traited for 0 defense while fighting a full glass cannon thief that can get 2 shotted himself.

On a squishy target i crit about 6k or 7k on my thief. I don’t usually care about threads like this since i love my Thief. But blatant lies to trash another class is pretty gross.

As a matter of fact it is not bs at all xd.Check the warrior forums for 11.5 k crits backstab on 3400 armor.There are builds allowing huge backstabs especially in wvw.Heck even s/d thieves can do 5-7k.Maybe you are not using a heavy dps focused build.

Heizero.9183:

I am really concerned that people in this thread talk about 15-16k BS crits…. i mean seriously. You would have to be naked and traited for 0 defense while fighting a full glass cannon thief that can get 2 shotted himself.

On a squishy target i crit about 6k or 7k on my thief. I don’t usually care about threads like this since i love my Thief. But blatant lies to trash another class is pretty gross.

I can back stab >10K routinely. I’ve even talked to the people i’ve killed that way in chat after I’ve invited them. several have armor >3K. So your belief is inaccurate.