Guild Wars 2

I know I’m just beating a dead horse, but honestly, who came up with the way these weapon sets work? It seems like they were created with levels of difficulty in mind instead of balance.

Let’s use Dagger/Pistol as the standard set. Everything else is compared to it.

Dagger/Pistol
Best Stealth Attack. Best finisher. Full gap closer. Blinds. Interrupts. On-demand Stealth (condi-removal/health regen).

Dagger/Dagger
No full gap closers, blinds, or interrupts. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.

Sword/Dagger
Slow Auto-Attacks. No damaging conditions. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.

Sword/Pistol
Slow Auto-Attacks. No damaging conditions. No access to Stealth. High damage attack roots you in place.

Pistol/Dagger
Slow Auto-Attacks. No interrupts or blinds. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.

Pistol/Pistol
Slow Auto-Attacks. No gap opener. No evades. No damaging AoE or cleave. No access to Stealth.

Shortbow
Weak damage on most attacks. High damage skill is super-slow. Stealth Attack is very weak.

Really, if your life depended on it, why would you not choose Dagger/Pistol? It seems to be the “Super” weapon set… the true Elite.

I love the Sword, though. But having to choose between Stealth or Interrupts/Blinds is not fun.
Dagger/Dagger would be amazing if it had a shadowstep gap closer or Interrupts or Blinds… or on-demand Stealth.

And yes, I dislike the Shortbow. It’s great for mobility, but I hate getting stuck with it in combat. It would be perfect as it is if I had instant-weapon swap… or if it was an F3 mode. But that’s not the case, sadly.

I hate SB as well. If we had weapon swap cooldown reduction like Warriors, it would be a better set. On that note, why does Warrior get swap cooldown? Aren’t we supposed to be the masters of weapons?

You’re also looking at it wrong. You’re forgetting the amount of Evades that S/D gets and how you can basically keep an enemy at max distance w/ P/D while inflicting conditions. There’s a bunch of synergy with the rest of the game mechanics and stealth is not the end all-be all mechanic for us. But yeah, D/P is the most versatile set. D/D gives you access to damaging backstabs, P/P allows you to pew pew from range for >5~7k per unload. You can’t look at these sets in a vacuum based on stealth, aa speed, and cleave.

Lamuness.3570:

I hate SB as well. If we had weapon swap cooldown reduction like Warriors, it would be a better set. On that note, why does Warrior get swap cooldown? Aren’t we supposed to be the masters of weapons?

You’re also looking at it wrong. You’re forgetting the amount of Evades that S/D gets and how you can basically keep an enemy at max distance w/ P/D while inflicting conditions. There’s a bunch of synergy with the rest of the game mechanics and stealth is not the end all-be all mechanic for us. But yeah, D/P is the most versatile set. D/D gives you access to damaging backstabs, P/P allows you to pew pew from range for >5~7k per unload. You can’t look at these sets in a vacuum based on stealth, aa speed, and cleave.

Indeed, the other weapon sets have their perks, but I was comparing them to Dagger/Pistol for the most part…. seeing what they lacked. I’ve edited the original post to reflect that.

Again, I love the Sword. I used to run with a Sword/Dagger in one set with Dagger/X in another. I loved switching fighting styles in mid-combat. But after playing with Dagger/Pistol, I just feel very lacking without Blinds and Interrupts. It’s especially true when I do run Shadow Arts (I tend to use Critical Strikes instead), because it’s much more difficult to get into Stealth.

And the reason I see Stealth kitten vital is because of the condi-removal and health regeneration.

I’ve been running Dagger/Dagger recently. It feels great, but again, it’s lacking so much. Once I’ve used Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet, I’m in a world of hurt against ranged opponents.

If it weren’t for that darn Infiltrator’s Arrow, I wouldn’t touch the Shortbow. But I’ve been reluctantly taking it because I want to become a better Thief.

All of this is coming from a PvP perspective, though. I tend to run power/crit builds there. I used to run Dire P/D in WvW, but I’ve given it up for D/P to have more Stealth, Backstabs, and Tormenting Interrupts. And again, the second “weapon” slot is reserved for the Shortbow… which I’m really starting to despise.

Maybe I’ll make a ranking system for the weapon sets based on pros/cons later. I’m pretty sure Dagger/Pistol will be the undisputed champion, though. I wouldn’t mind so much if the Shortbow weren’t required so I could have an alternate set. Again, some sets are so close… they are just lacking one or two things.

It’s amazing how a small change or two can completely change the viability of something. For example, traps became viable (in WvW) because direct damage was removed, making Trapper’s runes worth taking. Having Trapper’s Respite set a trap on heal just made it even better. If Shortbow’s Choking Gas didn’t do any direct damage (as before), it would be so much more useful for condi builds. If Cloak and Dagger had a Blind attached or gave you Stealth without requiring a successful melee strike… or if Dancing Dagger shadowstepped you to the target like Shadow Shot, Dagger/Dagger would be amazing!

Kageseigi.2150:

Dagger/Pistol
Best Stealth Attack. Best finisher. Gap closer. Blinds. Interrupts. On-demand Stealth (condi-removal/health regen).

---

Dagger/Dagger
Complete lack of gap closers, blinds, and interrupts. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.

Sword/Dagger
Slow Auto-Attacks. No damaging conditions. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.

Sword/Pistol
Slow Auto-Attacks. No damaging conditions. No access to Stealth. High damage attack roots you in place.

Pistol/Dagger
Slow Auto-Attacks. No interrupts or blinds. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.

The standard is D/D and the extremes are D/P and P/D (see the following);

D/P > S/P > D/D < S/D <P/D

The left side is more concentrated on an aggressive playstyle while the ones on the right side is more focused on tactical playstyle.

Pistol/Pistol
Slow Auto-Attacks. No gap opener. No evades. No damaging AoE or cleave. No access to Stealth.

Shortbow
Weak damage on most attacks. High damage skill is super-slow. Stealth Attack is very weak.

The same applies to the ranged weapon sets. P/P is more aggressive and SB is more tactical.

Really, if your life depended on it, why would you not choose Dagger/Pistol? It seems to be the “Super” weapon set… the true Elite.

I’f my life depends on it, I’d use P/D or SB…D/P may get me killed.

I love the Sword, though. But having to choose between Stealth or Interrupts/Blinds is not fun.

What’s the difference between blind and stealth? Either way your target can’t see you.

Joking aside. S/D is not about stealth so your dilemma is non-existence.

Dagger/Dagger would be amazing if it had a shadowstep gap closer or Interrupts or Blinds… or on-demand Stealth.

Nah. You’re just playing the weapon set wrong. You want D/P functionality in D/D, so why not just use D/P?

With D/D, you can be really aggressive or you can be tactical — that’s why this weapon set is hard to balance, maybe because it already is. What it needs is DB to be more reliable.

And yes, I dislike the Shortbow. It’s great for mobility, but I hate getting stuck with it in combat. It would be perfect as it is if I had instant-weapon swap… or if it was an F3 mode. But that’s not the case, sadly.

Shortbow is fine as is. With the buff to Potent Poison, it’s a good 2ndary weapon for P/D. It just need its projectile to move faster.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Joking aside. S/D is not about stealth so your dilemma is non-existence.

Indeed, it may just be my playstyle. I was actually running a “bunker” build with S/D and S/P at one point. The objective was to be able to fight on point, but also to survive. After Acro got nerfed, I was using Shadow Arts so I could heal up in Stealth. I would actually use S/D off-point to Stealth if I got ambushed, then used S/P on-point for Interrupts and Blinds. But eventually, the Pistol wasn’t enough to sustain me, so I would have to switch back to the Dagger for evades and Stealth.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Dagger/Dagger would be amazing if it had a shadowstep gap closer or Interrupts or Blinds… or on-demand Stealth.

Nah. You’re just playing the weapon set wrong. You want D/P functionality in D/D, so why not just use D/P?

With D/D, you can be really aggressive or you can be tactical — that’s why this weapon set is hard to balance, maybe because it already is. What it needs is DB to be more reliable.

I think that’s my main issue. D/P feels very “tactical.” It has so much utility and versatility, I can choose how to play. It’s a power set, not a condi set, but that doesn’t make it less tactical. It gives me everything I need… all of the needed tools.

If I see a big attack coming, I can Interrupt. If I need to get close or Blind, I Shadow Shot. If I need to Stealth or Backstab, I can Black Powder + Heartseeker.

D/D doesn’t seem to have nearly as much ability. Yes, it can be used as a condi/hybrid set, but it’s still lacking utility. It may have the raw damage output, but it doesn’t give me enough tools to apply it effectively. The main thing it could use is a full gap closer… or at least better/longer evasions.

I will equate D/D to a very short fighter going up against a very tall fighter. Once the shorter fighter is “hugging” the taller fighter, he can use knees and elbows to tremendous effect. But before he can get there, he has to get past the long reach (“kill zone”) of the taller fighter.

I just feel that D/P has a tool for almost every situation, but other weapon sets are lacking when compared to it.

Kageseigi.2150:

Indeed, it may just be my playstyle. I was actually running a “bunker” build with S/D and S/P at one point. The objective was to be able to fight on point, but also to survive. After Acro got nerfed, I was using Shadow Arts so I could heal up in Stealth. I would actually use S/D off-point to Stealth if I got ambushed, then used S/P on-point for Interrupts and Blinds. But eventually, the Pistol wasn’t enough to sustain me, so I would have to switch back to the Dagger for evades and Stealth.

Sadly, no matter what weapon you choose, you cannot solo-cap a point.

I think that’s my main issue. D/P feels very “tactical.” It has so much utility and versatility, I can choose how to play. It’s a power set, not a condi set, but that doesn’t make it less tactical. It gives me everything I need… all of the needed tools.

If I see a big attack coming, I can Interrupt. If I need to get close or Blind, I Shadow Shot. If I need to Stealth or Backstab, I can Black Powder + Heartseeker.

lol, that’s a funny way to play D/P…as tactical — because doing so you lose a lot of effectiveness.

When you see a big attack coming, you don’t interrupt — instead you need to use Shadow Shot to blind the attacker and get in melee range for counter-attack. The only ability you should be interrupting is healing skills…everything else can be dodged or blinded.

In the same way, when a big attack is coming to hit a D/D, you don’t dodge the attack, instead you use DB to evade it and counter-attack at the same time. It’s a higher skill level of playstyle that requires practice but very effective. If I need to interrupt, I use Steal(SoH spec).

D/D doesn’t seem to have nearly as much ability. Yes, it can be used as a condi/hybrid set, but it’s still lacking utility. It may have the raw damage output, but it doesn’t give me enough tools to apply it effectively. The main thing it could use is a full gap closer… or at least better/longer evasions.

I disagree. D/D is the most flexible weapon set. It can close gap using HS and it can create gap by using Dancing Daggers. I’m not one of those who build a hybrid around D/D but it works for other people.

I will equate D/D to a very short fighter going up against a very tall fighter. Once the shorter fighter is “hugging” the taller fighter, he can use knees and elbows to tremendous effect. But before he can get there, he has to get past the long reach (“kill zone”) of the taller fighter.

That’s also true using S/D. The only real difference is the damage output.

I just feel that D/P has a tool for almost every situation, but other weapon sets are lacking when compared to it.

D/P is good at dueling and single target, it loses effectiveness for each target added into the fray, this is why it’s not a tactical set. Compare that to x/D where it has the ability to cripple and control the situation. D/P’s option at the point is to stealth and run away, while x/D can keep that party going.

My point in all these is that, what we perceived to be a lack of balance can mean that we simply not seeing the big picture. This is the kind of things that ArenaNet Devs has to consider before they even remotely agree with us. Meaning, what we see as lacking in balance, the Dev see it very differently.

However, in order for them to prevent this kind of perception taking into effect, they need to make many significant quantifiable changes.

For instance, D/D has a damage output problem and buffing the number to increase damage is not the solution. By simply removing after-cast delays from DB, for example, will increase the weapon set’s damage output without tweaking the damage. Same goes with P/P, by reducing the cost of Unload will increase the weapon set’s damage output. All these changes without touching the base damage or damage coefficient.

That’s what we need to see coming from the Devs.

i have played P/P for 2 days now, its not that bad people call me OP etc.

the problem is, all u can do is either stealth > 1 > 3 > 3 > 3 or just 3 3 3 steal > 3 and hope he died
on the other hand with P/P i completely kitten pretty much everything in 1v1 i guess cus people dont understand that i basically have 3 times a burst which is 3 3 3 and after that whole burst has dropped to below zero..

none the less since S/D is so crappy nowadays and i still love my thief i just had to give P/P a go well and now im loving it..

when mesmers call you a overpowered kitten and that i can enjoy my OP P/P build for next few weeks till Anet nerfs it i guess its not bad ? :P

tho im not running full berzerker anyway but my dmg is enough to rip apart most classes in two times unload guardians/warriors take a bit more to kill but go down quite easy..

now i have to admit that im not used to P/P i guess using 4 on critical moments will help alot also so its not a 3 3 3 build but w/e :p

1 is meh feels really slow but okay its an auto attack
2 = bad skill on P/P
3 is eating initiative
4 i dunno if it interupts people who try to res teamm8 etc but i guess once i got used to build its pretty good
5 ye well 5 + 3 vs ranger = lol ranger assuming he is using long shot but i dont really use it cus i pretty much waste all ini on 3

anyway just go with the flow since Devs wont do a jackkitten tbh..

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I disagree. D/D is the most flexible weapon set. It can close gap using HS and it can create gap by using Dancing Daggers.

Ty, the first who agrees with me (unwillingly).
I still want access to CiS and Shadow Rejuvenation though and Dancing Daggers seem a bit unreliable to me – but maybe that’s me.

Anyway, I agree with the “bigger picture” and for that also the skills of other classes have to be taken into account.
Not so sure how to solve the “damage output problem” and if I understood what you meant and if I agree.
When I use DB it’s usually followed by CnD and BS – the three skills take me less than 2 seconds – I never felt as if DB was clunky. And I was running without trickery before, without infusion of shadows and hardly ever had troubles with my initative – so I don’t think that lowering the initative costs would increase my damage output.
And I think something went terribly wrong when the recalculation of the stats took place and thief got the short end. I’d have to look in all of the classes traits to see which “gain power for x percent of your toughness” should be tweaked. And that would be the bigger picture in my opinion – and I’m too lazy to do that.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I disagree. D/D is the most flexible weapon set. It can close gap using HS and it can create gap by using Dancing Daggers.

Ty, the first who agrees with me (unwillingly).
I still want access to CiS and Shadow Rejuvenation though and Dancing Daggers seem a bit unreliable to me – but maybe that’s me.

Anyway, I agree with the “bigger picture” and for that also the skills of other classes have to be taken into account.
Not so sure how to solve the “damage output problem” and if I understood what you meant and if I agree.
When I use DB it’s usually followed by CnD and BS – the three skills take me less than 2 seconds – I never felt as if DB was clunky.

The clunkiness of DB happens after the skill due to the after-cast delay — now add that delay to the casting time of CnD — it’s not very fluid. By removing the after-cast delay, your CnD’s chances of hitting will greatly improve thus increasing your damage output. The sooner you can follow-up your attacks, the more damage you can output because you’re not being gated by pre-cast and after-cast delays.

And I was running without trickery before, without infusion of shadows and hardly ever had troubles with my initative – so I don’t think that lowering the initative costs would increase my damage output.

Think about it, in 12 initiative bar, you can use DB 3x at a cost of 4 init (currently) vs. using DB 4x at a cost of 3init.

So yes, changing the cost increases your damage output.

However, DB don’t need a cost reduction, just delay reductions. Unload, on the other hand, needs its cost reduced. Shadow Shot deals 1k damage, blind, teleport, instant for 4 init. Unload barely deals 1k damage after 1.75 seconds, no utility, no healing, its stupid and unreasonable for the cost of 5 init.

And I think something went terribly wrong when the recalculation of the stats took place and thief got the short end. I’d have to look in all of the classes traits to see which “gain power for x percent of your toughness” should be tweaked. And that would be the bigger picture in my opinion – and I’m too lazy to do that.

Not really sure what you’re talking about here.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The clunkiness of DB happens after the skill due to the after-cast delay — now add that delay to the casting time of CnD — it’s not very fluid. By removing the after-cast delay, your CnD’s chances of hitting will greatly improve thus increasing your damage output. The sooner you can follow-up your attacks, the more damage you can output because you’re not being gated by pre-cast and after-cast delays.

In theory you’re right, in reality I cast DB when the opponent is running towards me, so we’re back to back after DB ends and I need to turn around to hit him with CnD – that alltogether is fluid for me.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Think about it, in 12 initiative bar, you can use DB 3x at a cost of 4 init (currently) vs. using DB 4x at a cost of 3init.

Yes, great for hybrid or condi builds. If they can pull that off often enough as DB can be interrupted and most classes have an interrupt.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

However, DB don’t need a cost reduction, just delay reductions. Unload, on the other hand, needs its cost reduced. Shadow Shot deals 1k damage, blind, teleport, instant for 4 init. Unload barely deals 1k damage after 1.75 seconds, no utility, no healing, its stupid and unreasonable for the cost of 5 init.

Not sure about that as a raw unload is really powerful. So people could either use the remaining initative to create a smoke field or spam unload once more, I somehow bet they’d do the latter. And with that they would be even more annoying than rangers.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Not really sure what you’re talking about here.

The problem why thieves’ damage output seems so low is that other’s classes damage output is so high and they’re still tanky. Thief didn’t really gain damage with the June patch, most other classes did, some skills were buffed, some traits were buffed but maybe they forgot to tweak some percentage traits to make tanky classes not more powerful than they should be.

ETA; if you buff thieves damage it would lead to “balance in a vaccum” once again – thieves would one shot each other while they still might only have a slightly better chance against other classes. And with that we would be at pre ferocity again with the difference that soldier’s (and the likes) still isn’t viable cause all other classes have gained a lot more “power”.

I played thief initially because I wanted to insta-gib people. But damage and tankiness have shifted over time, and I feel like other classes do this much better. An Engie can drop me in a second, as well as power necros, and any good mesmer / ele.

Always thought that SB was snitched and soldered into our 2nd slot, leaving us really with 1 slot of choice which will be the main build.

At DrD reveal, saw vault, and automatically thought “maybe staff can compete with SB for the 2nd slot…” – And then reality spanned back in, staff didn’t turn out so well from what I’ve read (despite DrD seemingly getting a positive overall review in the current official thread).

Not with the way the have vault set up mechanically. You might have the height to clear a wall but due to there mechanics you end up hitting blank air and falling. It is extremly annoying. i meant to take a video of it but i forgot…

Sir Vincent III.1286:

lol, that’s a funny way to play D/P…as tactical — because doing so you lose a lot of effectiveness.

When you see a big attack coming, you don’t interrupt — instead you need to use Shadow Shot to blind the attacker and get in melee range for counter-attack. The only ability you should be interrupting is healing skills…everything else can be dodged or blinded.

In the same way, when a big attack is coming to hit a D/D, you don’t dodge the attack, instead you use DB to evade it and counter-attack at the same time. It’s a higher skill level of playstyle that requires practice but very effective. If I need to interrupt, I use Steal(SoH spec).

Perhaps so, but at least D/P gives me the ability to choose how to play, Interrupting or Blinding. D/D doesn’t afford me that luxury.

Indeed, it takes more skill to play D/D effectively, I’m not denying that at all. But I believe it is because of the lack of utility. My main issue with it is staying close enough to melee against ranged opponents. Dancing Daggers and Heartseeker can help slow down and reach an opponent, but they have their own issues. First, Heartseeker isn’t a full gap closer, it is only partial. Secondly, it has no evade frames to avoid attacks while closing the gap. That is why I view Shadow Shot and Infiltrator’s Strike as superior skills.

I do love having an evading skill, but I’d much rather have Interrupts… even with a set like D/P. Trying to Blind or evade skills like Rapid Fire or Unload seems less effective. Not to mention that multiple Interrupts come in very handy in many situations. Stripping Stability, stopping rez’s and stomps, stopping channeling, preventing another D/P Thief from Stealthing. These are things that really do take multiple Interrupts.

I understand that D/D has access to Thief traits, utilities, and mechanics, but the set itself is lacking in utility. The problem with that is that it also seems to require the same mechanics/utilities for different purposes…

Stealing: Needed for gap closing and an Interrupt.

Infiltrator’s Signet: Needed for gap closing and a Stun Break.

Shadow Step: Needed for gap closing/opening, condition removal, and a Stun Break.

They all have “long” cooldowns, and they are all needed in different situations. You really have to make the difficult choice of when you’re going to use one, because you may need it for something else in a few moments.

That’s what I find amazing about D/P. I can Interrupt, Blind, and fully close gaps as long as I have initiative. If I’m out, I only need to buy a few seconds to have it ready again. Not to mention being able to Stealth on demand. I’m able to do things with it that I have extremely limited access to with D/D. On top of that, D/P still has access to utilities/mechanics/utilities. And because of its inherent utility, it even frees the user up to select different traits and utilities, making a build even more versatile.

I’m definitely not saying that D/P is best at everything or requires the most skill. But it does feel like it has so many useful things built into it, I’m rather shocked that the other sets don’t have more utility build in.

Whatever the case, I am all for adding more goodies to the other sets. Again, I love the Sword. In fact, I’d be very excited to see what we would get with an off-hand Sword… if that day ever comes. Here’s to hoping!

The topic owner has a good point.
Basically D/P has every thief utility available to them opposed to the other weapons, while dealing the highest damage.
Even with Daredevil coming out it will still be the obvious best weapon choice.

I really hope they change thief core machanic maybe altering the base stats of our class can help with that.I cant see d/p da/sa/tr going away since its still better then DD in almost every way (especially 1v1 d/p will remain superior)
But having in mind how much reveal will be available after x-pac i dont see thief provide much for any group in terms of support, almost every other class can provide something usefull.
I`m playing only thief and i`m kinda sad that probably i will have to change the class soon if the things remain in their current state.As a power thief i feel i`m lacking on almost every aspect (power/sustain).We are still the only class that doesnt have any form of reliable invuln skill, protection or resistance buffs or in general we dont have access to dmg mitigation in the “o …t moment”.
But in the same time i dont wanna be op and ez mode i just wanna be able to compete with the rest classess and do well if played correctly.

tl;dr; we dont do nothing to exclusivly well that others cant do (pls dont bring the stealth thing i would be happy to throw stealth away if they give me good stealthless mechanic that can compete with the rest of the classess.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The clunkiness of DB happens after the skill due to the after-cast delay — now add that delay to the casting time of CnD — it’s not very fluid. By removing the after-cast delay, your CnD’s chances of hitting will greatly improve thus increasing your damage output. The sooner you can follow-up your attacks, the more damage you can output because you’re not being gated by pre-cast and after-cast delays.

In theory you’re right, in reality I cast DB when the opponent is running towards me, so we’re back to back after DB ends and I need to turn around to hit him with CnD – that alltogether is fluid for me.

The after-cast delay is noticeable and it creates a larger window of opportunity than it should. For me that’s clunky.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Think about it, in 12 initiative bar, you can use DB 3x at a cost of 4 init (currently) vs. using DB 4x at a cost of 3init.

Yes, great for hybrid or condi builds. If they can pull that off often enough as DB can be interrupted and most classes have an interrupt.

That’s my point about pre-cast delay, it’s unnecessary and it allows it to be interruptible when it should be an evade. It is clunky because of the delay making it an unreliable skill to evade attacks.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

However, DB don’t need a cost reduction, just delay reductions. Unload, on the other hand, needs its cost reduced. Shadow Shot deals 1k damage, blind, teleport, instant for 4 init. Unload barely deals 1k damage after 1.75 seconds, no utility, no healing, its stupid and unreasonable for the cost of 5 init.

Not sure about that as a raw unload is really powerful. So people could either use the remaining initative to create a smoke field or spam unload once more, I somehow bet they’d do the latter. And with that they would be even more annoying than rangers.

How is it annoying?

The Unload damage output sucks and it cost too much (both initiative and casting time) to make it even remotely a threatening skill. Ranger can do their “unload” at 1500 range that causes vulnerability — not even close.

Even when you compare Ranger’s shortbow to Thief’s P/P, Ranger’s auto-attack has no casting time, makes it a 100 times better weapon than P/P. P/P has to unload just to keep up with that damage output.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Not really sure what you’re talking about here.

The problem why thieves’ damage output seems so low is that other’s classes damage output is so high and they’re still tanky. Thief didn’t really gain damage with the June patch, most other classes did, some skills were buffed, some traits were buffed but maybe they forgot to tweak some percentage traits to make tanky classes not more powerful than they should be.

Yeah, that’s part of the problem. While they make everyone tanky, they never buff our damage. However, instead of increasing the numbers, they can simply take away all the hurdles and hoops that we have to jump through and let us play however we want to.

Meaning, Pistol #1 no casting time, DB no pre-cast and after-cast delay, Reduce cost of Unload, etc.

ETA; if you buff thieves damage it would lead to “balance in a vaccum” once again – thieves would one shot each other while they still might only have a slightly better chance against other classes. And with that we would be at pre ferocity again with the difference that soldier’s (and the likes) still isn’t viable cause all other classes have gained a lot more “power”.

That’s why they should tweak something else other than finagling the numbers.

Lamuness.3570:

I hate SB as well. If we had weapon swap cooldown reduction like Warriors, it would be a better set. On that note, why does Warrior get swap cooldown? Aren’t we supposed to be the masters of weapons?

No, warriors are supposed to be the masters of weapons. That’s why they have so freakin’ many. That was key to their role during launch reveals as well. The idea was that, because warriors are thematically a pure martial and brute force class they’re the best at picking up any martial weapon and using it effectively, but don’t have many “tricks” like magic or adventurer classes do. I believe they specifically called warriors “masters of weapons” in the class breakdowns at one point pre-release.

We’re supposed to be the masters of creative finesse with small weapons, which is why we have initiative, dual, and stealth attacks, but no truly huge weapons (until we pick daredevil, which is an elite spec and thus intended to sort of “break the mold”)

Here is the rub with the class currently. It has almost no AoE, its group combo fields are relatively useless, has few tank abilities, no quality elites and the class relies heavily on positional direct damage. The class has also not kept up with the Jones either. Thieves used to have the highest damage output, best stealth and highest mobility. Now I can barely keep pace with half the classes in the game and Mesmer’s still have more effective combat stealth. Basically the thief has become outdated in the current AoE/Condi meta.

The only build I have running really well right now is a pure zerk d/d with either d/p or p/p as a secondary weaponset. It is a pure skill build to maximize damage output and cherry pick fights. Any mistake is a near instant death. Fun, but incredibly fragile.

Kageseigi.2150:

I know I’m just beating a dead horse, but honestly, who came up with the way these weapon sets work? It seems like they were created with levels of difficulty in mind instead of balance.

Let’s use Dagger/Pistol as the standard set. Everything else is compared to it.

Dagger/Pistol
Best Stealth Attack. Best finisher. Full gap closer. Blinds. Interrupts. On-demand Stealth (condi-removal/health regen).

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Dagger/Dagger
No full gap closers, blinds, or interrupts. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.

Sword/Dagger
Slow Auto-Attacks. No damaging conditions. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.

Sword/Pistol
Slow Auto-Attacks. No damaging conditions. No access to Stealth. High damage attack roots you in place.

Pistol/Dagger
Slow Auto-Attacks. No interrupts or blinds. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.

Pistol/Pistol
Slow Auto-Attacks. No gap opener. No evades. No damaging AoE or cleave. No access to Stealth.

Shortbow
Weak damage on most attacks. High damage skill is super-slow. Stealth Attack is very weak.

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Really, if your life depended on it, why would you not choose Dagger/Pistol? It seems to be the “Super” weapon set… the true Elite.

I love the Sword, though. But having to choose between Stealth or Interrupts/Blinds is not fun.
Dagger/Dagger would be amazing if it had a shadowstep gap closer or Interrupts or Blinds… or on-demand Stealth.

And yes, I dislike the Shortbow. It’s great for mobility, but I hate getting stuck with it in combat. It would be perfect as it is if I had instant-weapon swap… or if it was an F3 mode. But that’s not the case, sadly.

What if I told you that I, in PVE, Vs champs solo all the time, and can easily out DPS the average D/P user’s with my P/D build? It takes practice, but all of the weapon sets have their place. Don’t let the vocal Minority of the Forums fool you. Ive seen all the weapons used by different players and been impressed by each set at some point since the last big changes.(condition re-balance.) You’d be hard pressed to pin down a Sword user who is good at what they do, and they can maintain it very well. Same is true for the other weapons.
I saw one 2 days ago that was scary good at fighting multiple foes, keeping them all locked down and separated.

Alright then, all weapons viable in PvE – we’re good then!