Guild Wars 2

Well, seeing as revealed/anti-stealth mechanics (that are extremely easy to land) are being handled around like candy on Christmas to other classes while stealth is main mechanic of thief class (attacks requiring stealth, whole defensive trait line based on stealth) and they struggle vs every single class right now, i think it is time that thieves receive ways to hardcounter other classes.

My suggestion: change steal trait (example serpent’s touch) to apply Belladona effect (3? sec) – you are partially paralyzed unable to use some mechanics. Those mechanics depend class that was hit by steal.

Guardian: gains resistance to heals and blocks – meaning guardian hit by steal is unable to heal himself or get affected by block on himself for duration of the debuff.

Mesmer – unable to create clones.

Engineer – unable to swap kits, unable to block.

Warrior – unable to swap weapon, gains resistance to heals.

Ranger – unable to swap weapons, unable to command pet.

Thief – unable to stealth.

Ele – gains resistance to heals and boons – meaning ele won’t be able to receive boons or heals for duration of the debuff.

Necro – entire life force is stolen if steal hits.

Also, i would highly suggest to add trait “Cheat Death” in one of the defensive trees. Cheat death – an attack that otherwise would have kill you, brings you to 10% (arguable) HP, 60? sec ICD.

Discuss.

That was actually the idea behind my Arcane Thief Elite Spec suggestion — it would have been better for the Thief to arcane steal abilities using focus than to be a staff wielding monkey.

Whatever, too late for that — maybe the next Elite Spec (if any)?

Better solution is to remove this revealed for everyone in the first place and replace it with a new “status” Exposed. It would also enable shadow arts to not be invalidated by a single status that can be chained on you with 0 diminishing returns.

This new status would let you stealth still but they could see you and you could literally steal the ! from metal gear as an icon for it.

See Eve’s stealth from league of legends to get a better idea of what the de-buff would do.

Revealed should only apply to non-Thief.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Revealed should only apply to non-Thief.

This, +10,000. At the very least have in shadow arts a trait that gives complete immunity to reveal. Since reveal didn’t previously exists buff other traits to avoid shadow arts having a net nerf effect.

I’d be happier if steal stripped all invulerability, and X number of boons, as currently that’s thieves biggest issue when fighting other classes, too many of them can completely negate our damage. Running away often means you just died being tired, thanks to revealed and/or other CC effects.

When my stealth completely negates AoE’s and cleave, then there might be an argument to the contrary.

I remember the discussions on these forums when they introduced the first abilities that would reveal us. I am going to say the same now as then: what the hell are ANet thinking?!

Thief are the only profession in the game that have certain skills and abilities that completely shut down its profession mechanic and an entire trait line! Yes, we have enough “survivability” with evades and shadow steps available, but that do not justify those skills.

Let us thieves trait into steal shutting down other profession mechanics then.

- Mesmer: can’t create clones.
- Engineer: can’t use kits or tool belt skills
- Guardian: lose all boons and deny them for the duration and won’t be able to use virtues.
- Warrior: Lose all adrenaline, deny any more to charge and can’t swap weapons.
- Ranger: pet won’t do anything.
- Elementalist: Can’t swap attunements
- Necromancer: Lose all life force, can’t apply conditions and can’t regenerate any life force for the duration.

Sounds about right if you ask me.

Even if I like these suggestions I think it’s worth it for us to suggest something easier to implement. I don’t want to be mean but looking at what A-Net has doing against thieves I don’t think they will implement something like totally negate death shroud on steal. We should ask for something that makes thieves valuable to have in a team, and no, mobility is not anymore a specific thief thing. I would like to have more spec option for pvp that don’t rewuire only d/p and stealth for survive. At the moment we have only one spec that can barely compete and for this reason we are easily counterable nowadays.

Lets face it. Anet will never implement something so long winded and time consuming as a mechanic to deny other classes of their core abilities/mechanics. Not to say they’re lazy, but they’d probably all gather in their little meeting room and the dude who’d have to program it would raise his hand and say “kitten that”.

We should be asking for a counter to the real problem. We need to be able to remove or negate Reveal. Whether it be from a Grandmaster Trait in SA or tack on a Reveal Remove to an existing ability which could use some love, cough Signet of Shadows cough.

I could go on all day about how I think it should be done, and my opinion will differ to yours and the devs over at Anet.

At the end of the day we need Reveal Removal on a similar cooldown to abilities that Reveal to keep the balance in check.

Anet pls.

Revealed has not aged well as a mechanic. It was implemented and buffed in a really heavy-handed way in response to the constant “nerf thief!” cries of 2013. It should be obvious in 2015 that we’re not currently a meaningful threat to anyone, so now would be a good time to tone down Revealed and make it more consistent (or better yet remove it entirely).

I think the toolbelt skill on the Scrapper elite is the right direction to go. It appears to take people out of Stealth WITHOUT causing Revealed, which would be a better way to handle Stealth and anti-Stealth abilities in general.

meepeY.2867:

Lets face it. Anet will never implement something so long winded and time consuming as a mechanic to deny other classes of their core abilities/mechanics. Not to say they’re lazy, but they’d probably all gather in their little meeting room and the dude who’d have to program it would raise his hand and say “kitten that”.

We should be asking for a counter to the real problem. We need to be able to remove or negate Reveal. Whether it be from a Grandmaster Trait in SA or tack on a Reveal Remove to an existing ability which could use some love, cough Signet of Shadows cough.

I could go on all day about how I think it should be done, and my opinion will differ to yours and the devs over at Anet.

At the end of the day we need Reveal Removal on a similar cooldown to abilities that Reveal to keep the balance in check.

Anet pls.

Something able to completely remove the reveal mechanic would be too OP for me and even if I like it, I guess that never it will be implemented. Also something like that would be too mandatory for a thief to have and will result in even less thief differentiation, something like the trickery line is nowadays.
I don’t mind reveal, if we can get some other powerfull options that don’t require stealth at all, and I don’t mean only one other spec that uses evasion as the main source of defense. I mean at least 3 or 4 equally strong and different options (I know it’s pure utopy) for the thief, so that other classes are not forced in taking an anti stealth tool for countering our only decent spec at the moment.
Of course I hate these anti stealth things, since their only purpose is to completely negate what the thief class can do at the moment. And it’s wrong.

Kolly.9872:

I don’t think they will implement something like totally negate death shroud on steal.

Not that I think it’ll work mechanically at the moment, but I kind of like the idea of being able to literally grab a Necromancer by the collar and pull them out of their shroud.
Show those nerds who the real masters of shadows are.

Actually, a “Dispelling Steal” trait might not be a half bad idea, though it’s exact mechanics probably need more thought than “crap on the other classes”

Though I agree Revealed is dumb

Keep seeing “Ranger: pet won’t do anything.” Think most rangers would thank us for that.

As to the main topic. I just wish thief had skills or traits that did it as well. Mesmers would be fun to fight again.

lets be real about revealed.

• rangers slot sic ’em, mostly because mesmer population needs to be countered somehow.
• engies barely exist, and they dont slot goggles, EVER. also, new stealth elite is not a good choice for PvP next to elixir X or supply drop. For large WvW, new stealth elite provides a much needed group role for clearing mesmers out of keeps, but is not as strong as mortar. for roaming, it might be a good choice, but that will depend on cooldown, and if its taken it will be for escapability, and it will be a tough choice over elixir and supply drop which do way more to actually win the fight.
• guardians …there is little indication guardians have ANY interest in speccing traps. the general concensus is, DH is absolute garbage, traps are garbage, the bow has potential for zergs but not PvP or roaming.

am i missing anyone? did revenants get something?

thats just one class that would commonly carry the counter, and thats probably reasonable.

“discuss”

Raven.9603:

lets be real about revealed.

• rangers slot sic ’em, mostly because mesmer population needs to be countered somehow.
• engies barely exist, and they dont slot goggles, EVER. also, new stealth elite is not a good choice for PvP next to elixir X or supply drop. For large WvW, new stealth elite provides a much needed group role for clearing mesmers out of keeps, but is not as strong as mortar. for roaming, it might be a good choice, but that will depend on cooldown, and if its taken it will be for escapability, and it will be a tough choice over elixir and supply drop which do way more to actually win the fight.
• guardians …there is little indication guardians have ANY interest in speccing traps. the general concensus is, DH is absolute garbage, traps are garbage, the bow has potential for zergs but not PvP or roaming.

am i missing anyone? did revenants get something?

thats just one class that would commonly carry the counter, and thats probably reasonable.

“discuss”

Revenants get one with Glint. 20s cd, stunbreak, blind, not sure how crippling the cost is but they get it from ending a perma-fury stance.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Raven.9603:

lets be real about revealed.

• rangers slot sic ’em, mostly because mesmer population needs to be countered somehow.
• engies barely exist, and they dont slot goggles, EVER. also, new stealth elite is not a good choice for PvP next to elixir X or supply drop. For large WvW, new stealth elite provides a much needed group role for clearing mesmers out of keeps, but is not as strong as mortar. for roaming, it might be a good choice, but that will depend on cooldown, and if its taken it will be for escapability, and it will be a tough choice over elixir and supply drop which do way more to actually win the fight.
• guardians …there is little indication guardians have ANY interest in speccing traps. the general concensus is, DH is absolute garbage, traps are garbage, the bow has potential for zergs but not PvP or roaming.

am i missing anyone? did revenants get something?

thats just one class that would commonly carry the counter, and thats probably reasonable.

“discuss”

Revenants get one with Glint. 20s cd, stunbreak, blind, not sure how crippling the cost is but they get it from ending a perma-fury stance.

whelp, glint is gonna be pretty kitten popular. way more popular than sic’em on rangers. on the other hand, 360 radius is pretty short range, and as the only stunbreak on glint (and a skill that requires being prepped ahead of time for upkeep), its going to be a tradeoff if they use it in a fight. you can essentially force them to blow it with basklisk.

Guess the purpose of this thread is to show what “reveal” would do to other classes.

so +1 from me

Jana.6831:

Guess the purpose of this thread is to show what “reveal” would do to other classes.

so +1 from me

Except most of that is exaggerated. I play thief often; I know what sic em (for example) does, and it isn’t to the extent of shutting you down completely. At worst, you blind, LoS and reset the fight. The thing is, a thief’s time is very valuable. You should not be getting into fair fights as a thief. Yes, you can win them…but it’s a waste of time. Better to find a fair fight and make it an unfair fight via your arrival. That way, you get more kills more quickly, and when you cap the point your teammate there can defend it while you continue to roam. Daredevil will be different: an on-point fighter with evades instead of stealth as the primary defensive mechanic.

I know what I’m doing come HoT, unless DD gets some serious fixes and enhancements…

…playing a different class as main.

It’s not even about the “reveal” skills/traits for me. It’s more about how the current DD is pathetic compared to the other e-specs. Thief already melts, and with HoT, they will melt even faster with some of those e-specs.

The 3rd dodge is nothing, but a nerfed version of “Feline Grace”.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Jana.6831:

Guess the purpose of this thread is to show what “reveal” would do to other classes.

so +1 from me

Except most of that is exaggerated. I play thief often; I know what sic em (for example) does, and it isn’t to the extent of shutting you down completely. At worst, you blind, LoS and reset the fight. The thing is, a thief’s time is very valuable. You should not be getting into fair fights as a thief. Yes, you can win them…but it’s a waste of time. Better to find a fair fight and make it an unfair fight via your arrival. That way, you get more kills more quickly, and when you cap the point your teammate there can defend it while you continue to roam. Daredevil will be different: an on-point fighter with evades instead of stealth as the primary defensive mechanic.

But simply joining a fight is something any class can do. If the class can’t 1 vs. 1 it’s underpowered, period.

Agemnon.4608:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Jana.6831:

Guess the purpose of this thread is to show what “reveal” would do to other classes.

so +1 from me

Except most of that is exaggerated. I play thief often; I know what sic em (for example) does, and it isn’t to the extent of shutting you down completely. At worst, you blind, LoS and reset the fight. The thing is, a thief’s time is very valuable. You should not be getting into fair fights as a thief. Yes, you can win them…but it’s a waste of time. Better to find a fair fight and make it an unfair fight via your arrival. That way, you get more kills more quickly, and when you cap the point your teammate there can defend it while you continue to roam. Daredevil will be different: an on-point fighter with evades instead of stealth as the primary defensive mechanic.

But simply joining a fight is something any class can do. If the class can’t 1 vs. 1 it’s underpowered, period.

I never said that thieves can’t 1v1 (in fact, I said the exact opposite). I said it is a waste of a thief’s valuable time to do so. Other professions don’t +1 nearly as well because they don’t have the mobility to be where they should, when they should.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Except most of that is exaggerated. I play thief often; I know what sic em (for example) does, and it isn’t to the extent of shutting you down completely.

It is.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

At worst, you blind, LoS and reset the fight.

D/D thief, no blind on my weapon set – I might also be out of initative.

Edit: And blind doesn’t save me from aoe which can be better thrown into my direction when knowing my position.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

The thing is, a thief’s time is very valuable. You should not be getting into fair fights as a thief. Yes, you can win them…but it’s a waste of time. Better to find a fair fight and make it an unfair fight via your arrival. That way, you get more kills more quickly, and when you cap the point your teammate there can defend it while you continue to roam. Daredevil will be different: an on-point fighter with evades instead of stealth as the primary defensive mechanic.

I’m a wvw player, I don’t care about pvp or the mechanics in pvp (no offense to pvp players – you know what I mean) – I really want to have a fair chance in a 1 vs 1 – reveal is destroying a good part of that – we already discussed this multiple times and in fact you can compare it to the OP – reveal really is bad.

Jana.6831:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Except most of that is exaggerated. I play thief often; I know what sic em (for example) does, and it isn’t to the extent of shutting you down completely.

It is.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

At worst, you blind, LoS and reset the fight.

D/D thief, no blind on my weapon set – I might also be out of initative.

Edit: And blind doesn’t save me from aoe which can be better thrown into my direction when knowing my position.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

The thing is, a thief’s time is very valuable. You should not be getting into fair fights as a thief. Yes, you can win them…but it’s a waste of time. Better to find a fair fight and make it an unfair fight via your arrival. That way, you get more kills more quickly, and when you cap the point your teammate there can defend it while you continue to roam. Daredevil will be different: an on-point fighter with evades instead of stealth as the primary defensive mechanic.

I’m a wvw player, I don’t care about pvp or the mechanics in pvp (no offense to pvp players – you know what I mean) – I really want to have a fair chance in a 1 vs 1 – reveal is destroying a good part of that – we already discussed this multiple times and in fact you can compare it to the OP – reveal really is bad.

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target, and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower. Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Agemnon.4608:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Jana.6831:

Guess the purpose of this thread is to show what “reveal” would do to other classes.

so +1 from me

Except most of that is exaggerated. I play thief often; I know what sic em (for example) does, and it isn’t to the extent of shutting you down completely. At worst, you blind, LoS and reset the fight. The thing is, a thief’s time is very valuable. You should not be getting into fair fights as a thief. Yes, you can win them…but it’s a waste of time. Better to find a fair fight and make it an unfair fight via your arrival. That way, you get more kills more quickly, and when you cap the point your teammate there can defend it while you continue to roam. Daredevil will be different: an on-point fighter with evades instead of stealth as the primary defensive mechanic.

But simply joining a fight is something any class can do. If the class can’t 1 vs. 1 it’s underpowered, period.

I never said that thieves can’t 1v1 (in fact, I said the exact opposite). I said it is a waste of a thief’s valuable time to do so. Other professions don’t +1 nearly as well because they don’t have the mobility to be where they should, when they should.

I agree; thief should have its name changed to SB5. It’s the only thing keeping the class alive after all.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target, and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower. Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

So?

Jana.6831:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target, and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower. Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

So?

If you run a less efficient setup, you’re going to have more problems. That’s just the way it is, with any profession in the game. You chose to run d/d, so you accepted the limitations of the weapon set. I don’t like the lack of options that plague so many professions, but I still have to live with them.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

If you run a less efficient setup, you’re going to have more problems. That’s just the way it is, with any profession in the game. You chose to run d/d, so you accepted the limitations of the weapon set. I don’t like the lack of options that plague so many professions, but I still have to live with them.

With the difference that any class still can beat thief without equipping sic em etc. A thief has to play the "one and only weaponset " to have a chance – no argument pro these “skills”.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target

You can HS your way out of AoE without requiring a target.

and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower.

Or Sleight of Hand. Or with my favorite, Scorpion Wire.

Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

Competitive in terms of what?

In PvP, Thieves can easily use D/D if they are not subjected to a roaming/capping/decapping duty.

In PvE and WvW, D/D is the best set to use because D/P lacks the ability to tag multiple targets where D/D can easily to that with DB and Dancing Daggers.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Jana.6831:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target, and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower. Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

So?

If you run a less efficient setup, you’re going to have more problems. That’s just the way it is, with any profession in the game. You chose to run d/d, so you accepted the limitations of the weapon set. I don’t like the lack of options that plague so many professions, but I still have to live with them.

That would be temporarily fine if /d wasn’t gutted for no reasons especially since it barely scratched d/p which was already superior. War is seeing more diversity, guard uses everything, mesmer fine, necro has official “change is coming” on weapons, with ranger it’s just the class despite sword AA, revenant fine, ele also has “he who knows his name” but staff has it’s place, engi fine. That was all weapon wise.

Thief you come with something other than d/p in PvP you are asking your team to lose, anything works in WvW and PvE.

Just wanted to say: D/D is suicidal in wvw – because you guys claim it’s “the best weaponset” and “anything goes in wvw” – no – it doesn’t

Edit (one post without edit would be so great – in my next life probably) :

You can however build full offensive and hope that your opponent doesn’t add active invulnerability to his already passively applied ones.
Or you can outskill them.

Edit²: Allthough both means to outskill them.
So let’s put it like this: “D/D is fine if you outskill all your opponents”.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target

You can HS your way out of AoE without requiring a target.

and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower.

Or Sleight of Hand. Or with my favorite, Scorpion Wire.

Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

Competitive in terms of what?

In PvP, Thieves can easily use D/D if they are not subjected to a roaming/capping/decapping duty.

In PvE and WvW, D/D is the best set to use because D/P lacks the ability to tag multiple targets where D/D can easily to that with DB and Dancing Daggers.

Tagging? Shortbow is better than dancing daggers for that, and the mobility is useful anywhere. Shortbow is the alternate weapon for thieves, sort of like necro staff in that regard. Also, d/p already tends to have sleight of hand as well as headshot, giving you more interrupts without sacrificing anything significant. If there is an appropriate target available, shadow shot is both faster and more initiative efficient as a mobility skill than heartseeker. It also has the blind as a defensive mechanic. Let me turn the question on its head: what benefit do you get from d/d that is not present in d/p?

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target

You can HS your way out of AoE without requiring a target.

and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower.

Or Sleight of Hand. Or with my favorite, Scorpion Wire.

Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

Competitive in terms of what?

In PvP, Thieves can easily use D/D if they are not subjected to a roaming/capping/decapping duty.

In PvE and WvW, D/D is the best set to use because D/P lacks the ability to tag multiple targets where D/D can easily to that with DB and Dancing Daggers.

Tagging? Shortbow is better than dancing daggers for that, and the mobility is useful anywhere. Shortbow is the alternate weapon for thieves, sort of like necro staff in that regard.

So you’re saying that D/P is so bad at tagging that you have to pull out the Shortbow…ok.

If there is an appropriate target available, shadow shot is both faster and more initiative efficient as a mobility skill than heartseeker.

I disagree. Just by relying on a target makes it weaker.

It also has the blind as a defensive mechanic. Let me turn the question on its head: what benefit do you get from d/d that is not present in d/p?

AoE tagging. I thought I already post that.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target

You can HS your way out of AoE without requiring a target.

and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower.

Or Sleight of Hand. Or with my favorite, Scorpion Wire.

Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

Competitive in terms of what?

In PvP, Thieves can easily use D/D if they are not subjected to a roaming/capping/decapping duty.

In PvE and WvW, D/D is the best set to use because D/P lacks the ability to tag multiple targets where D/D can easily to that with DB and Dancing Daggers.

Tagging? Shortbow is better than dancing daggers for that, and the mobility is useful anywhere. Shortbow is the alternate weapon for thieves, sort of like necro staff in that regard.

So you’re saying that D/P is so bad at tagging that you have to pull out the Shortbow…ok.

If there is an appropriate target available, shadow shot is both faster and more initiative efficient as a mobility skill than heartseeker.

I disagree. Just by relying on a target makes it weaker.

It also has the blind as a defensive mechanic. Let me turn the question on its head: what benefit do you get from d/d that is not present in d/p?

AoE tagging. I thought I already post that.

Why is needing to pull out a shortbow to tag such a disadvantage? You use the proper weapon for the job. Shortbow is better at tagging than d/d, so for tagging you use shortbow. D/p is better at roaming and 1v1 than d/d, so for roaming and 1v1 you use that. Why would camping a single weapon be a goal when you have a weapon swap?

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Raven.9603:

lets be real about revealed.

• rangers slot sic ’em, mostly because mesmer population needs to be countered somehow.
• engies barely exist, and they dont slot goggles, EVER. also, new stealth elite is not a good choice for PvP next to elixir X or supply drop. For large WvW, new stealth elite provides a much needed group role for clearing mesmers out of keeps, but is not as strong as mortar. for roaming, it might be a good choice, but that will depend on cooldown, and if its taken it will be for escapability, and it will be a tough choice over elixir and supply drop which do way more to actually win the fight.
• guardians …there is little indication guardians have ANY interest in speccing traps. the general concensus is, DH is absolute garbage, traps are garbage, the bow has potential for zergs but not PvP or roaming.

am i missing anyone? did revenants get something?

thats just one class that would commonly carry the counter, and thats probably reasonable.

“discuss”

Revenants get one with Glint. 20s cd, stunbreak, blind, not sure how crippling the cost is but they get it from ending a perma-fury stance.

It’s extra silly because a Rev can get 40% crit on Fury.
If they add in the Mallyx trait line whose name I forget and just a few pieces of Precision-heavy gear, they’ll be able to hit 30% crit… with Fury uptime all the time that’s 70%
Then in combat, any time they don’t get a crit it goes up by 10% every second.

I didn’t bother to do the math since I could just try it in BWE, but that combo basically made the Rev able to crit as well as my Thief with no gear investment, for a couple of traits… which means they can get all power gear and do absurd damage.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target

You can HS your way out of AoE without requiring a target.

and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower.

Or Sleight of Hand. Or with my favorite, Scorpion Wire.

Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

Competitive in terms of what?

In PvP, Thieves can easily use D/D if they are not subjected to a roaming/capping/decapping duty.

In PvE and WvW, D/D is the best set to use because D/P lacks the ability to tag multiple targets where D/D can easily to that with DB and Dancing Daggers.

Tagging? Shortbow is better than dancing daggers for that, and the mobility is useful anywhere. Shortbow is the alternate weapon for thieves, sort of like necro staff in that regard.

So you’re saying that D/P is so bad at tagging that you have to pull out the Shortbow…ok.

If there is an appropriate target available, shadow shot is both faster and more initiative efficient as a mobility skill than heartseeker.

I disagree. Just by relying on a target makes it weaker.

It also has the blind as a defensive mechanic. Let me turn the question on its head: what benefit do you get from d/d that is not present in d/p?

AoE tagging. I thought I already post that.

Why is needing to pull out a shortbow to tag such a disadvantage? You use the proper weapon for the job. Shortbow is better at tagging than d/d, so for tagging you use shortbow.

Ah, but we’re not comparing D/D with S/B now are we?

D/p is better at roaming and 1v1 than d/d, so for roaming and 1v1 you use that. Why would camping a single weapon be a goal when you have a weapon swap?

Ah, yes 1v1, of course. No one is deying the superiority of D/P in 1v1.

You asked me what D/D can do that D/P cannot and I answered you.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target

You can HS your way out of AoE without requiring a target.

and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower.

Or Sleight of Hand. Or with my favorite, Scorpion Wire.

Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

Competitive in terms of what?

In PvP, Thieves can easily use D/D if they are not subjected to a roaming/capping/decapping duty.

In PvE and WvW, D/D is the best set to use because D/P lacks the ability to tag multiple targets where D/D can easily to that with DB and Dancing Daggers.

Tagging? Shortbow is better than dancing daggers for that, and the mobility is useful anywhere. Shortbow is the alternate weapon for thieves, sort of like necro staff in that regard.

So you’re saying that D/P is so bad at tagging that you have to pull out the Shortbow…ok.

If there is an appropriate target available, shadow shot is both faster and more initiative efficient as a mobility skill than heartseeker.

I disagree. Just by relying on a target makes it weaker.

It also has the blind as a defensive mechanic. Let me turn the question on its head: what benefit do you get from d/d that is not present in d/p?

AoE tagging. I thought I already post that.

Why is needing to pull out a shortbow to tag such a disadvantage? You use the proper weapon for the job. Shortbow is better at tagging than d/d, so for tagging you use shortbow.

Ah, but we’re not comparing D/D with S/B now are we?

D/p is better at roaming and 1v1 than d/d, so for roaming and 1v1 you use that. Why would camping a single weapon be a goal when you have a weapon swap?

Ah, yes 1v1, of course. No one is deying the superiority of D/P in 1v1.

You asked me what D/D can do that D/P cannot and I answered you.

You should always be carrying shortbow. Always. Because thieves get weapon swap (gasp), we’re comparing d/p + sb to d/d + sb. Using dancing dagger to tag is stupid and a waste of initiative. You get the same tagging potential as the auto attack on shortbow, and a good deal less than shortbow 2. There is no reason to camp d/d when you’re tagging. The bottom line is that you’re using an inferior weapon set, and wondering why you aren’t doing as well.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target

You can HS your way out of AoE without requiring a target.

and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower.

Or Sleight of Hand. Or with my favorite, Scorpion Wire.

Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

Competitive in terms of what?

In PvP, Thieves can easily use D/D if they are not subjected to a roaming/capping/decapping duty.

In PvE and WvW, D/D is the best set to use because D/P lacks the ability to tag multiple targets where D/D can easily to that with DB and Dancing Daggers.

Tagging? Shortbow is better than dancing daggers for that, and the mobility is useful anywhere. Shortbow is the alternate weapon for thieves, sort of like necro staff in that regard.

So you’re saying that D/P is so bad at tagging that you have to pull out the Shortbow…ok.

If there is an appropriate target available, shadow shot is both faster and more initiative efficient as a mobility skill than heartseeker.

I disagree. Just by relying on a target makes it weaker.

It also has the blind as a defensive mechanic. Let me turn the question on its head: what benefit do you get from d/d that is not present in d/p?

AoE tagging. I thought I already post that.

Why is needing to pull out a shortbow to tag such a disadvantage? You use the proper weapon for the job. Shortbow is better at tagging than d/d, so for tagging you use shortbow.

Ah, but we’re not comparing D/D with S/B now are we?

D/p is better at roaming and 1v1 than d/d, so for roaming and 1v1 you use that. Why would camping a single weapon be a goal when you have a weapon swap?

Ah, yes 1v1, of course. No one is deying the superiority of D/P in 1v1.

You asked me what D/D can do that D/P cannot and I answered you.

You should always be carrying shortbow. Always. Because thieves get weapon swap (gasp), we’re comparing d/p + sb to d/d + sb.

Nope. S/B was never part of our discussion until you realize and acknowledge that D/P sucks at tagging.

Why should I trap myself to 10s swapping CD just to tag target? Counter-productive since I can tag them without swapping.

Using dancing dagger to tag is stupid and a waste of initiative. You get the same tagging potential as the auto attack on shortbow, and a good deal less than shortbow 2.

lol, not even close. The initiative cost of Dancing Dagger is worth it for the effect it can do.

So basically what you’re trying to say is, it takes both D/P + S/B to do what D/D can do by itself.

That make sense and I totally agree.

There is no reason to camp d/d when you’re tagging.

10s swapping cooldown is a very good reason. Another good reason is proc’ing a sigil.

So, yes, you’re wrong.

The bottom line is that you’re using an inferior weapon set, and wondering why you aren’t doing as well.

The weapon set only seems inferior to those who doesn’t know its value.

Sometimes you don´t want to change weapons and has to use other possibilities. I actually use dancing dagger on S/D a lot more now after the speed-buff some time ago. Using it as rangecleave and projectile-finisher can be very rewarding.
Of course its a little bit different on D/D, but still, if its a bad situation to swap weapons in that moment, throw a knife ^^
I actually like the idea of giving CiS to C&D and remove CiS from SA, itd not needed for anything else.

If you want to run an inferior weapon set just for those few situations when you want to tag without having to switch, then you accept that it will get you killed sometimes because it lacks the tools that d/p has. You have the right to complain about being beaten due to your own weapon choice, you do not have the right to be taken seriously when you do so.

There are way more things that remove chill which Reaper is supposed to utilize to be sticky than there is to stealth, and stealth is a way more “broken” mechanic.

Also OP you got it wrong: getting bursted out of nowhere or guys pressing one button to disengage any fight is the problem, giving out reveals is the counterplay to THAT, and definitly needed. There isn’t nearly as much revealing as you make it out to be, and almost all of it is on situational skills not everybody might use. Heck, some forms are depending on which traitlines they take.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

If you want to run an inferior weapon set

What is “all of them”?

Try playing S/P. Try it.

Shiki.7148:

There are way more things that remove chill which Reaper is supposed to utilize to be sticky than there is to stealth, and stealth is a way more “broken” mechanic.

Also OP you got it wrong: getting bursted out of nowhere or guys pressing one button to disengage any fight is the problem, giving out reveals is the counterplay to THAT, and definitly needed. There isn’t nearly as much revealing as you make it out to be, and almost all of it is on situational skills not everybody might use. Heck, some forms are depending on which traitlines they take.

Plays an engi…. what a surprise. You don’t get bursted out of nowhere unless you never look at map or unable to use interrupts. One button to disengage? Okkkkk
Ok, let’s assume counterplay to stealth is needed, WHY CAN’T WE HAVE COUNTERPLAY TO ENGI SKILLS THEN? I am sure there should be just as much counterplay that locks out their entire trait line just to be fair. Why should thieves be only class being completely locked out of defensive (and offensive) abilities? I think it is time other classes get same threatment like thieves!

Cynz.9437:

Shiki.7148:

There are way more things that remove chill which Reaper is supposed to utilize to be sticky than there is to stealth, and stealth is a way more “broken” mechanic.

Also OP you got it wrong: getting bursted out of nowhere or guys pressing one button to disengage any fight is the problem, giving out reveals is the counterplay to THAT, and definitly needed. There isn’t nearly as much revealing as you make it out to be, and almost all of it is on situational skills not everybody might use. Heck, some forms are depending on which traitlines they take.

Plays an engi…. what a surprise. You don’t get bursted out of nowhere unless you never look at map or unable to use interrupts. One button to disengage? Okkkkk
Ok, let’s assume counterplay to stealth is needed, WHY CAN’T WE HAVE COUNTERPLAY TO ENGI SKILLS THEN? I am sure there should be just as much counterplay that locks out their entire trait line just to be fair. Why should thieves be only class being completely locked out of defensive (and offensive) abilities? I think it is time other classes get same threatment like thieves!

And you massively failed. I do not even have an Engi created, I play Necro and nothing else. Too bad you just wasted your credibility, huh?

Shiki.7148:

Cynz.9437:

Shiki.7148:

There are way more things that remove chill which Reaper is supposed to utilize to be sticky than there is to stealth, and stealth is a way more “broken” mechanic.

Also OP you got it wrong: getting bursted out of nowhere or guys pressing one button to disengage any fight is the problem, giving out reveals is the counterplay to THAT, and definitly needed. There isn’t nearly as much revealing as you make it out to be, and almost all of it is on situational skills not everybody might use. Heck, some forms are depending on which traitlines they take.

Plays an engi…. what a surprise. You don’t get bursted out of nowhere unless you never look at map or unable to use interrupts. One button to disengage? Okkkkk
Ok, let’s assume counterplay to stealth is needed, WHY CAN’T WE HAVE COUNTERPLAY TO ENGI SKILLS THEN? I am sure there should be just as much counterplay that locks out their entire trait line just to be fair. Why should thieves be only class being completely locked out of defensive (and offensive) abilities? I think it is time other classes get same threatment like thieves!

And you massively failed. I do not even have an Engi created, I play Necro and nothing else. Too bad you just wasted your credibility, huh?

Doesn’t change my point? Why should thief be only class that gets completely locked out of defensive trait line (and offensive high dmg) ? Why can’t thieves have ways of hardcounter other classes in same way? Why do other classes not get same kind of “threatment” from devs? Why are they getting silverspooned while thieves are forced to eat horse crap?

wow guys bottom right corner. It’s a lot worse than we thought.. 6 seconds..??

http://i.imgur.com/sxEMt8j.jpg

Kocoff.7582:

wow guys bottom right corner. It’s a lot worse than we thought.. 6 seconds..??

http://i.imgur.com/sxEMt8j.jpg

gg, i wish i could get my money back for HoT

Kocoff.7582:

wow guys bottom right corner. It’s a lot worse than we thought.. 6 seconds..??

http://i.imgur.com/sxEMt8j.jpg

6 Second Reveal. AOE 900 Range. 20 Second Cooldown. Massive Daze AOE Spam. Constant Stability. Constant Super Speed. Access to Stealth themselves. The list goes on and on.

The final nail in the coffin. Next BWE I’m gonna test other professions and then re roll to the one I enjoy the most.

Daredevil pails in comparison. Not to say we got shafted… But we didn’t get exactly as much or so much.

Does that elite thing give stealth in intervalls?

at this point i think all thieves should gather and write letter to Anet with complains about discrimination from dev team

Wow…. wait up. the Stealth drone lasts 30 seconds and the CD is 30 seconds… The Stealth boon lasts 4 seconds and the interval of application is 3 seconds.

That means in WvW, the Scrapper will be rocking permanent stealth to them and 5 person.

That’s more stealth than a Thief could ever dream of. Permanent stealth roaming?
If you don’t see a flying little gyro miles away you are already dead.