Guild Wars 2

I was checking the Ranger forum to see if I could find more information in the upcoming Ranger buff mentioned on gw2guru interview, and I found this bit that is basically the same we’ve been telling all the time to Thief haters, only that this time comes from a dev (which gives him lots of credibility) and a dev that is usually found on Ranger forums (so not particularly a Thief lover or someone who doesn’t wants his profession to be nerfed).

Very wise words and as I said it’s basically the same we’ve been telling for ages to all those players screaming for Thief nerfs instead of trying to learn to counter one of the less versatile classes in the game and probably the most predictable of them all:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

VitalSuit.1980:

Thieves as well? I hope this is only for pve and not pvp because thieves are the last thing that needs a buff.

Most thieves don’t make it out of the lower tiers because you can mitigate them very easily. As a ranger I shut thieves down all the time who don’t use venoms, especially if you have something like healing spring and Lightning reflexes. One fixes stun, one fixes immob/cripple, and then it’s just dodge rolls at the right moment and CC to shut them down. Also bring wolf for f2 and stay nearby when thieves start doing their stealthy bit, and then be ready to watch them flee in terror.
That of course means their build options are highly limited, and when that happens people can hard counter you more easily.

The changes for rangers coming in this next patch are a step in the right direction for them. I am not part of that team so I won’t be announcing any of the changes unless told otherwise.

And he’s able to counter thieves with a Ranger, one of the professions in most need of a buff, so imagine how well one of the strong classes can counter a Thief when the player learns to predict them instead of calling for nerfs without even trying to guess an strategy to beat a super predictable Thief.

Thanks Robert Hrouda for this, we really needed this from someone whose opinion wouldn’t be dismissed as if he was trying to save his class from nerfing.

Rob needs to be part of the balance team. He’s great as a dungeon guy but he at least has SOME idea of what’s going on, in comparison to what changes we actually get.

Yeah, I often check the Ranger forums for my alternate character and I always like Robert’s posts, he always has words of wisdom about the game. I wish we had someone like him writing in the Thief forums every now and then.

Ah good to hear that he can beat bad thief on ranger in 1v1, thief`s must be really fine or our dev just is not completely handicapped. Good news either way.

My only issues with rangers atm is that kitten root skill! Hate that bloody thing!

Leeto.1570:

Ah good to hear that he can beat bad thief on ranger in 1v1, thief`s must be really fine or our dev just is not completely handicapped. Good news either way.

So if a ranger beat a thief, then the thief must be bad, but if a thief beats bads in videos, he must be OP. The double standards again, welcome to MMO forums.

Bazeleel.8219:

My only issues with rangers atm is that kitten root skill! Hate that bloody thing!

Word…
Actually, with S/P, you’d have plenty ways of dealing with it
It’s friggin annoying tho. Especially with ranged weapons, you have to click the roots manually. I mean, a mesmer just swaps to sward, becomes invulnerable and mows the thing away. Or swaps to staff and phase retreats out, or, or, or, or…
Thief only got shadow shot, shadowstep, infiltrators strike, steal, infiltrators arrow, pistol whip, … Well and Death Blossom, which would be a huge waste of initiative tho

naphack.9346:

Bazeleel.8219:

My only issues with rangers atm is that kitten root skill! Hate that bloody thing!

Word…
Actually, with S/P, you’d have plenty ways of dealing with it
It’s friggin annoying tho. Especially with ranged weapons, you have to click the roots manually. I mean, a mesmer just swaps to sward, becomes invulnerable and mows the thing away. Or swaps to staff and phase retreats out, or, or, or, or…
Thief only got shadow shot, shadowstep, infiltrators strike, steal, infiltrators arrow, pistol whip, … Well and Death Blossom, which would be a huge waste of initiative tho

There is a major flaw with the Rangers Entangle elite.

It applies a 1 second immobilise every 1 second, but when the 1 second immobilise wears off, it’s possible to walk out of the area before the next one is applied and completely negate the entire 150 second elite skill.

there is stuff like condition duration increments…
you may be able to dodge out of 1 second immobilize every second but you can’t dodge out of 1.1 seconds immobilize every second.

Hating thieves is my passion. It is true, I haven’t investigated the class well enough but some day I will! As a passionate hater I would like to be separated from the noobs that simply blame thieves for being OP – they really aren’t. Mostly I find that people just doesn’t know how to play their own classes, i.e. if you solo roam a necro you are just gonna have to suit yourself.

I hate you thieves, but I love our incredibly engaging battle! I run a somewhat thief-nightmare guardian – tougher than an overcooked rack of lamb, and too stubborn to ever give up.

FYI, I’m not selling myself out to be Zeus, I’ve died, and I’ve run crying to the nearest keep. I just don’t see the point in raging! Let’s just keep the hate on passionate hate-love-kinda level :]

What’s wrong with solo roaming a necro?
I can tell you two necro builds right off the bat without ever having played one higher than level 9, which would just rip the thief apart. Just cause they have marks and wells doesn’t mean, they can only do group actions. Power-necros and critmancers are scary things.

Good guy Robert Hrouda:

Even when everybody else is complaining about how “OP” thieves are, he manages to prove them wrong.

I have to wonder, though…

… Are we the only community that actually goes to the other forums to tell people how to counter us, and then praises people who give correct advice on how to counter us? :P just a side effect of being one of/the most hate profession in the game, I suppose.

Arganthium.5638:

I have to wonder, though…

… Are we the only community that actually goes to the other forums to tell people how to counter us, and then praises people who give correct advice on how to counter us? :P just a side effect of being one of/the most hate profession in the game, I suppose.

I think this is perfect strategy for easing a lot of the backlash we receive. There can hardly be a valid argument or complaint if the resources exist to educate other classes about Thieves and clear up any misconceptions.

This is especially true Thieves are the primary ones providing said resources (build clarifications/limitations, counter advice, situational awareness about Stealth), and providing the positive feedback to those who reiterate the same information correctly.

A lot of players just want to faceroll around, mash a couple (perceived) IWIN buttons, and win at everything. When reality does not match perception (and vice versa) and no research is done with respect to one class or another, that is when the complaining and hating starts in. :(

True. I love face rolling in single player games, but on MMORPG’s I want to win because I pressed all the right buttons at all the right times. It’s especially gratifying when I’m winning on a difficult to master class against a one-button wonder. Then you know you won because you were more skilled, not because your class won for you.

Strayhand.8216:

Leeto.1570:

Ah good to hear that he can beat bad thief on ranger in 1v1, thief`s must be really fine or our dev just is not completely handicapped. Good news either way.

So if a ranger beat a thief, then the thief must be bad, but if a thief beats bads in videos, he must be OP. The double standards again, welcome to MMO forums.

Ye cause ranger can totally log into wvwvw and kill group of 5 people and then escape any zerg… everybody is annoyed by thief in wvwvw not in sPVP environment. You may say wvwvw doesnt matter or whatever but theres no reason why 7 professions should play wvwvw one way and then thief just walks wherever he wants in god mode.

I find CCing a S/x thief is very hard and that’s whom I have most problems with countering, especially if they play somewhat tankier than pure glass cannons.
I started playing my thief again in spvp recently, so I’m well aware of how thief works with their skills and so in general. But with S/X builds, thieves can break immobilize and stuns easily with pretty much non existant cool downs. Though their damage compared to D/X suffers. So thieves can be very tricky to CC.

I’ve got a lvl 80 ranger too as well that I play bunker BM build in spvp with. I usually have no problems killing thieves with it 1v1. Using GS/SB and can tank thieves damage most of the time while my panther is shredding the thief to pieces In WvW however, my biggest problem is that despite my armor/hp (not full bunker, but still pretty decent) the thieves just do insane amount of damage that you get almost no chance to recover from it.

Depends on the thief you fight. Some thief battles are doable (close range ones will die to any ranger who happens to have traps on usually), but others turn into utter impossible matches, such as fighting long range thieves. Close range you can do something about them, but long range…UGH. Probably also doesn’t help that the difference between 1v1ing somebody in sPvP and WvW is pretty big.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Depends on the thief you fight. Some thief battles are doable (close range ones will die to any ranger who happens to have traps on usually), but others turn into utter impossible matches, such as fighting long range thieves. Close range you can do something about them, but long range…UGH. Probably also doesn’t help that the difference between 1v1ing somebody in sPvP and WvW is pretty big.

I find almost every ranger easy as thief, you suddenly have ranged single target dps w/ shortbow thanks to the pet bouncing it back or you have a stealth applying tool chasing you around. Hardly any rangers play it smart…

Leeto.1570:

Strayhand.8216:

Leeto.1570:

Ah good to hear that he can beat bad thief on ranger in 1v1, thief`s must be really fine or our dev just is not completely handicapped. Good news either way.

So if a ranger beat a thief, then the thief must be bad, but if a thief beats bads in videos, he must be OP. The double standards again, welcome to MMO forums.

Ye cause ranger can totally log into wvwvw and kill group of 5 people and then escape any zerg… everybody is annoyed by thief in wvwvw not in sPVP environment. You may say wvwvw doesnt matter or whatever but theres no reason why 7 professions should play wvwvw one way and then thief just walks wherever he wants in god mode.

Eles can do that too pretty much. And for roaming, all you need is a regular speed buff and a good sense of map awareness.

I also like Tyler, he posts in the Engineer forum.
Here is an example of one of his posts.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Tpvp-Turret-Engineer-videos/page/3#post1802222

check the rest of his posts in this tread as well, he even shares his own build and tactics wile playing engi.

Dual.8953:

Leeto.1570:

Strayhand.8216:

Leeto.1570:

Ah good to hear that he can beat bad thief on ranger in 1v1, thief`s must be really fine or our dev just is not completely handicapped. Good news either way.

So if a ranger beat a thief, then the thief must be bad, but if a thief beats bads in videos, he must be OP. The double standards again, welcome to MMO forums.

Ye cause ranger can totally log into wvwvw and kill group of 5 people and then escape any zerg… everybody is annoyed by thief in wvwvw not in sPVP environment. You may say wvwvw doesnt matter or whatever but theres no reason why 7 professions should play wvwvw one way and then thief just walks wherever he wants in god mode.

Eles can do that too pretty much. And for roaming, all you need is a regular speed buff and a good sense of map awareness.

From what I heard D/D eles are going to be heavily nerfed soon while their other weapons are going to get buffed. I hope that’s the case, so I stop seeing D/D eles. They are the ONLY eles I cannot kill as any class.

Lokheit.7943:

I was checking the Ranger forum to see if I could find more information in the upcoming Ranger buff mentioned on gw2guru interview, and I found this bit that is basically the same we’ve been telling all the time to Thief haters, only that this time comes from a dev (which gives him lots of credibility) and a dev that is usually found on Ranger forums (so not particularly a Thief lover or someone who doesn’t wants his profession to be nerfed).

Very wise words and as I said it’s basically the same we’ve been telling for ages to all those players screaming for Thief nerfs instead of trying to learn to counter one of the less versatile classes in the game and probably the most predictable of them all:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

VitalSuit.1980:

Thieves as well? I hope this is only for pve and not pvp because thieves are the last thing that needs a buff.

Most thieves don’t make it out of the lower tiers because you can mitigate them very easily. As a ranger I shut thieves down all the time who don’t use venoms, especially if you have something like healing spring and Lightning reflexes. One fixes stun, one fixes immob/cripple, and then it’s just dodge rolls at the right moment and CC to shut them down. Also bring wolf for f2 and stay nearby when thieves start doing their stealthy bit, and then be ready to watch them flee in terror.
That of course means their build options are highly limited, and when that happens people can hard counter you more easily.

The changes for rangers coming in this next patch are a step in the right direction for them. I am not part of that team so I won’t be announcing any of the changes unless told otherwise.

And he’s able to counter thieves with a Ranger, one of the professions in most need of a buff, so imagine how well one of the strong classes can counter a Thief when the player learns to predict them instead of calling for nerfs without even trying to guess an strategy to beat a super predictable Thief.

Thanks Robert Hrouda for this, we really needed this from someone whose opinion wouldn’t be dismissed as if he was trying to save his class from nerfing.

so Anet is based on class balance on 1 vs 1 now? LOL.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I consider things like “hundred nades bug” to be OP, where a single attack dos 26k damage in an AOE.

/sigh that photoshopped picture keeps on making the rounds doesn’t it?

I seriously don’t understand the problem with thieves getting 10k spike crits… When you think about it, engis have always had the infamous 100 nades, warrior kill shot is about 7k but at 1200 range, eviserate is 8k but easier to avoid, ele scepter has crazy spike, zerker staff ele can do 3k autos at ranged, mesmer spike is WAY higher than thief and at ranged, etc. etc. Sure thief has invis but all these classes have protection, block, and invuln.

If people are having so much trouble with thieves that they need to rage on the forums, then why aren’t all these classes getting equal hate?

Oh and I’d also like to state, thanks Rob for telling people the seemingly obvious tactic of playing the class to help learn to counter it. I had no idea, like at all, how to beat an engi in pvp or wvw. They would either pull me somehow and wreck me with their turrets while tanking me with healing bombs/wrench thing. I still don’t know all that much but I know enough about the abilities to counter each kit and get the better of each situation.

Ex. Bomb, shoot them in the face and poison them, they can’t do anything about that.
Nades, be sporatic and bouncy.
Wrench, you can actually dodge their pull! Don’t unload on them fast, that shield is a powerful defensive tool.
Elixir gun, just walk away. Far too annoyingly tanky if they’re using that and my grandma hits harder than them. Unless they’re conditioning down a zerg you can still burst their allies enough to counter the stupid amounts of healing they give.

If I didn’t play and play against engis just to learn these things, I’d still be eating fixer wrenches to the face as my source of fibre for the day.

I would like to point in that there is alot of ppl who dont hate Thiefs but rather see them as one of the more interesting classes to play versus.

To be able to play versus a good thief like Robert H say you need to know the class moves and abilitys. When you do this it become like a good battle between 2 fencers, you try to precipitate hes move to counter what you not see comming but expect.

With many love to the thiefs i encounter in wvwvw I add this vid, show why I find thiefs so interesting to battle.

/Osicat

And the balance is … where ? Also if you give them the possibility to spike so high, could please provide us with means to counter it ? As a necro I do not have time to Consume Conditions, if I do it is already too late and the skill is either interrupted while channeling or the heal is actually not working because I am already downed. I also do not have a jump or a teleport other than a worm which takes another 2 seconds to channel. I dodged warrior kill shots before so l2p or quick reflexes are not the case. Whatever you would say the thief is unbalanced and overpowered because it HAS the possibility to trait likewise. That being said I am going to hide my Knight warrior 15k kill shot which btw takes about 15 seconds to build in adrenaline, not 2 seconds.

Just another example on how not to QA properly.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

steal/pistolwhip/quickness/unload type builds out there, but that D/D thief overpowers and obscures the potential for other builds to rise up. In my eyes they could use some more versatility… I know that when I play my ranger I can many different things at once – I have a large tool box of sometimes very useful tools, and that makes me harder to bring down since I am not so easily countered.

Well this is longer than I was thinking it would be, and now I have subjected the thief forum to my punctuation, so I better stop. Also I’ll admit to being little on edge in this forum… I’m a ranger in the middle of a thieves den!

Well, that’s exactly WHY I made a thief. I want to be able to go the spike damage route. By “adding more versatility” that usually means a nerf to that aspect instead of buffs to other aspects and other ways to build it. People whine because their class does’t do glass cannon as well. Well there SHOULD be one or two classes that do. And if you want that sort of class, play that class!

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I consider things like “hundred nades bug” to be OP, where a single attack dos 26k damage in an AOE.

/sigh that photoshopped picture keeps on making the rounds doesn’t it?

There was actually a super awesome video of it in WvW, where I watched a single engi take out a group of guardians and warriors by jumping into the middle of them, lol. I looked for the video, but this is all I could find. I feel it’s good enough to represent it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gXAliTpRwk

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Full disclosure: imo anything that can down someone in less than 3 seconds alone is bad regardless of which class does it except for pure glass vs pure glass. I’m not defending 100nades.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Hey folks, I figured I would swoop in and drop a reply.

[…]

Hey Robert thanks for droping a reply, so long since last time we got a Dev talking with us here hehe.

The example of playing a bit of Thief to know how to counter it is another we’ve been telling other players, thanks for adding your own experience with it. Once you play as a Thief you learn the motions and sequences and you can identify them from outside.

Of course it takes a bit of practice, but I’ve learned even to evade invisible backstabs in the right moment just by mentally counting time and imagining his position (and I’m not a backstabber myself but I still predict them). Sometimes I even standstill and evade when I think they’re throwing it and I manage to evade them.

Thanks again Robert, we apreciate that you took a moment to give us aditional input in the topic

lare.9512:

And the balance is … where ? Also if you give them the possibility to spike so high, could please provide us with means to counter it ? As a necro …

what are you complaining about… sorry but this is a complete l2play issue. You’re necro, activate your 2nd health bar and use that to soak up the burst that the thief has already channelled coming after he has initiated. Odds are your ds will soak up the backstab and at least 1 hs. Your super high base hp means the steal/cnd won’t do any more than half (which you can instantly heal up after you leave ds) so you shouldn’t have any problems getting away. Depending on the thief you should either be able to push him away enough to get to safety or be able to condition him enough to scare him away.

Seriously what’s the problem. It certainly isn’t in balance.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

There was actually a super awesome video of it in WvW, where I watched a single engi take out a group of guardians and warriors by jumping into the middle of them, lol. I looked for the video, but this is all I could find. I feel it’s good enough to represent it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gXAliTpRwk

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Full disclosure: imo anything that can down someone in less than 3 seconds alone is bad regardless of which class does it except for pure glass vs pure glass. I’m not defending 100nades.

That was 1 ability that, in melee range, is near-instant cast/instant land. Thief burst does less damage than that entire combo and only to a single target and it takes 2s to pull off. After that combo is done, the thief is HIGHLY vulnerable whereas the engi has just cleared a MASSIVE aoe of any threat while having shield and invuln to fall back on for the ranged threats.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

And unlike backstab burst, 100nades required a setup of Net Shot or Magnet or else it would be impossible to land. Precasting CnD→Steal→Backstab can be done almost instantly. Both are instagib burst builds with very little opportunity for the defender to do anything about it, but 1 got removed while the other remains.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

That build is just really really good at spiking, and it overpowers almost any other build the thief can bring to deal damage. There are a few builds you don’t see often with thieves that are pretty good, because players weigh efficiency in murdering something quickly to be greater than surviving a drawn out encounter, so they’ll bring the most efficient build to accomplish that… which in my experience has been the D/D heart seeker.

Its less that murdering something quickly is the favoured thing and more the fact that even a full bunker thief is far far more glassy than anyone else in the game due to complete lack of any sort of damage reduction, they get 3 ways to defend themselves, stealth thats upto 50% damage reduction (if they still want to attack) IF the enemy stops all hostilities the moment you go stealth (as pointed out, once players have learnt about it, they keep up the damage), a selection of evasions which if built for is about the best survivability you can gain but is still incredibly limited and 2 shadowsteps away for our “mobility”, theres no 33% damage reduction boons, constant regen boons, stability boons, blocks, aoe pushback/downs etc etc that others have access to.

Which means to realistically survive an encounter the thief needs to kill the enemy or hope very much that they are either a new player that has yet to learn about stealth or hasn’t brought an immobilize to lock down the evades. Once you stop the thieves initial burst (which considering a warrior killshot to volley does more damage from upto at least 1200 range in less gear if it lands) they really don’t have much hope for beating you unless you happened to drop low enough for heartseeker to do good damage (if your above 50% heartseekers just going to waste their limited initiative compared to auto attacking).

PS: Omg omg omg a anet person posting in the thief forum properly? The end is nigh, the apocalypse has come, run! FLEE! HIDE! the end times is upon us!

Thank you Robert.

Please tell your friends that it’s not that hard to post here….

Also let the devs that play the Thief profession know that they can safely come out of stealth and share they’re stories like you just did.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

There is no “play” in mug – backstab combo.

zexion.5842:

There is no “play” in mug – backstab combo.

There is, learn to gauge distance and watch for pre-casting. Seriously, what it it with all these posts?

Pro tip. What’s a thief looking to do as soon as they get into range for steal?

The answer is steal.

Nope, definitely not. If you really didn’t like the huge amount of time you had for you to dodge that Magnet Pull there is nothing we can do for you.

Besides… I’m sure that if 100nades was strapped on a Warrior they wouldn’t even look at it, doesn’t feel like “Nobody’s supposed to burst for 24k damage” but rather “Hell no, Engineers shouldn’t do that much damage”.

zexion.5842:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

There is no “play” in mug – backstab combo.

That’s debatable. I use BV, I have mug, and I primarily backstab, but I’m not the typical 25/30/x/x/x, Im 10/30/30/0/0 which every thief and their mother knows is the balanced build right now. As you can guess, unless they are uplvlds or very squishy targets, I don’t down people in three seconds. It is uncommon for me do the typical thief burst and have it actually down someone because as the dev said, it’s not one skill we use, its a chain which can, and is sometimes, interrupted. My backstabs only hit for 6k, 7k when sig of fire is factored in and works….. most of the battles I’m in are pretty decently battles in terms of length. This one fight I had with a mesmer went on for about a minute an a half which on paper doesn’t sound like a long time. But it is, it’s a painstakingly long time when you’re such a squishy class, and I traded dmg for survivability so that’s saying something. I don’t use BV and mug to burst people down, unless I know for a fact that it will be very effective. I use it as an opening/ momentum breaker. I especially love it when Im fighting another thief, it can literally turn the tide of the fight. My point is that just because we mug and backstab doesn’t mean we don’t need a sense of awareness and caution. If anything in my opinion I would say that the balanced build takes more skill than the GC one. Don’t get me wrong, you GC’s out there that don’t die, nice job. That 11k health must be hard to work with, But they believe in killing the opponent before they even know what hit them. And it’s ok if the backstab doesn’t down, the 8k heartseeker afterwards will do the trick. With me it’s like I initiate a burst on a guardian and their health barely goes down, then they slowly turn to look at me saying, “My turn” with an evil grin. At which it then becomes evident Im going to need a not more than raw damage to win the fight.

zexion.5842:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

There is no “play” in mug – backstab combo.

let me brake it down for you (and i do not play BS spec)

Basilisk Venom (Elite Skill) > Assassin’s Signet > Cloak and Dagger > Steal > move behind the target > Backstab

By now if you cant avoid a backstab on a 1v1 you are doing it wrong man.
When I’m caught off guard and unprepared is one thing but if I see him coming, no way he will be able to backstab me even once during the fight.

MrForz.1953:

Nope, definitely not. If you really didn’t like the huge amount of time you had for you to dodge that Magnet Pull there is nothing we can do for you.

Besides… I’m sure that if 100nades was strapped on a Warrior they wouldn’t even look at it, doesn’t feel like “Nobody’s supposed to burst for 24k damage” but rather “Hell no, Engineers shouldn’t do that much damage”.

No possible way to land it other than with magnetic pull? Do you not know how the ability works? It’s a massive aoe that hits HARD and is very hard to miss. If something jumps on YOU (not you on it) you can still drop it on them and insta them. You can also jump to the enemy, dodge to them, walk towards them casually while you’re fighting, corner them, they corner you, etc. There’s far more ways to land tool belt nades skill then you want to let people know about. Stop trying to sell something short to win b/c right now, you point has more falsehoods in them than facts.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Volrath.1473:

let me brake it down for you (and i do not play BS spec)

Basilisk Venom (Elite Skill) > Assassin’s Signet > Cloak and Dagger > Steal > move behind the target > Backstab

By now if you cant avoid a backstab on a 1v1 you are doing it wrong man.
When I’m caught off guard and unprepared is one thing but if I see him coming, no way he will be able to backstab me even once during the fight.

Pretty much this. There’s a lot of play in that build/combo, and so long as you keep your wits about you, you should be okay. There’s also some really interesting feints that can happen withb that build, where at the moment of cloaking, if you let them blow their invulns and dodge rolls early, you can take advantage of it. Everyone expects the damage to come ASAP, but if you delay it even a couple seconds players will blow their skills by over-reacting to it.

And none of that could be done by netshotting someone and fooling them into burning their defenses without firing the grenades?

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Volrath.1473:

let me brake it down for you (and i do not play BS spec)

Basilisk Venom (Elite Skill) > Assassin’s Signet > Cloak and Dagger > Steal > move behind the target > Backstab

By now if you cant avoid a backstab on a 1v1 you are doing it wrong man.
When I’m caught off guard and unprepared is one thing but if I see him coming, no way he will be able to backstab me even once during the fight.

Pretty much this. There’s a lot of play in that build/combo, and so long as you keep your wits about you, you should be okay. There’s also some really interesting feints that can happen withb that build, where at the moment of cloaking, if you let them blow their invulns and dodge rolls early, you can take advantage of it. Everyone expects the damage to come ASAP, but if you delay it even a couple seconds players will blow their skills by over-reacting to it.

I can attest to this. I have found that by playing “patiently” I am more successful. I have four seconds of stealth which is a decent time to stick by them, or clones/pet/minions, and wait for them to stop moving and get a clear opening to restealth and proceed to go about fighting. I I rush, Im the one who ends up suffering, especially with necromancers. It feels good when Im invisible and start running along side them while the place their marks on the ground behind them not even knowing they are missing me, and when they are done, I’ll backstab

Volrath.1473:

zexion.5842:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

There is no “play” in mug – backstab combo.

let me brake it down for you (and i do not play BS spec)

Basilisk Venom (Elite Skill) > Assassin’s Signet > Cloak and Dagger > Steal > move behind the target > Backstab

By now if you cant avoid a backstab on a 1v1 you are doing it wrong man.
When I’m caught off guard and unprepared is one thing but if I see him coming, no way he will be able to backstab me even once during the fight.

Usually followed by one or two Heartseekers if they’re not upleveled.
And it’s single target. Disturbingly, 100nades was not not, and neither is Killshot.

Grimwolf.7163:

Volrath.1473:

zexion.5842:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

There is no “play” in mug – backstab combo.

let me brake it down for you (and i do not play BS spec)

Basilisk Venom (Elite Skill) > Assassin’s Signet > Cloak and Dagger > Steal > move behind the target > Backstab

By now if you cant avoid a backstab on a 1v1 you are doing it wrong man.
When I’m caught off guard and unprepared is one thing but if I see him coming, no way he will be able to backstab me even once during the fight.

Usually followed by one or two Heartseekers if they’re not upleveled.
And it’s single target. Disturbingly, 100nades was not not, and neither is Killshot.

Calling a 120 radius aoe a multitarget attack in pvp is laughable. You’re never going to hit more than 1 person with that unless it’s a zerg or someone being rezzed.

randomfightfan.4091:

It’s a massive aoe that hits HARD and is very hard to miss.

You understand that the kit refinement of grenade kit would hit next to nothing if you weren’t inside the hitbox of the target, right?
Which means it is very EASY to miss without cc.