Guild Wars 2

Been on my thief a slight bit to level up and I have some suggestions…

1. Shortbow feels really meh. I would suggest combining cluster bomb and choking gas and keep it in the 4th attack slot. Speed up the projectile as well. Having moved and combine the aoes, I would add in some type of single target attack in the #2 slot.

2. I would like to see some major sensible changes to the class as a whole. I’m not going to go into specific details and numbers, but I believe following these suggestions will have the best long term positive impact on gameplay and future balance…

- Thieves are way too reliant on layering and investing in stealth for overall survival and performance. While some of you may like this gameplay design and would argue for it until the end of the universe, you will eventually come to understand that having the devs pour everything important into this “1 trick” is bad. Doing so limits growth potential in many other critical areas that need work and will force any future changes and improvements to revolve around the “we can’t do stuff because of stealth this and stealth that” scenarios. You will ultimately find yourself asking why thieves can’t have “nice things” and that answer will be because of the current stealth designs and mechanics.

-I would like to see thief become a “heartier” profession without the stealth reliance crutch.

-Stealth should be an attack opener and as an emergency elite ability escape which still sets the tone for combat and still provides the best potential retreats.

-Change all mid combat stealth powers, and things that affect stealth, to something like a visible “mist” type form or visible “shadow shroud” of sorts that reduces damage from all sources when struck. These forms or shrouds would still allow the thief to perform normally and traits can be tailored to provide bonuses and enhance these states.

Before you all jump in here and start foaming at the mouths, just realize that my general suggestions allow for the developers to create more diversity with builds and future specializations. It puts thieves in a more survivable category during combat naturally. It still provides the best combat mobility while still offering stealth and stealth-like abilities. It becomes a lot more interesting in combat for both the player and opponent.

I’ll keep messing with my thief so I’m less of a newbie, but I think this profession needs a lot of work and could be in a much-much-much better place overall.

I would agree thief needs some work…lets look at some common issues we have

>1. Condi clearance / we simply cannot keep up with condi builds even if you max out SA

>2. Heavily reliant on stealth/blinds to stay alive (again for condi clearing, and our low health ((Im gona be stuck at 12k health after the whole guard stack going away…))

>3.many would argue we are 1 trick pony’s being backstab or pure spam condi builds

>4. Lets face it traps suck as far as pvp/wvw goes (ambush, spike pit, trip wire, scorpion wire, smoke screen) I would love to see some better skills implemented or maybe reconfigured to be more usefull roaming or in small havoc teams

>5. UP OUR HEALTH POOL PLEASE!!! not by much but at least if youre going to keep nerfing damage output…
>
>6. we have very little versiltility as far as defense goes, very little stability, zero cc.. however I understand this were thieves were supposed to get in and get out/evade

Ive playing thief since beta (Happy 1000 days of gw2 today!) as we continually get nuked down by damage nerfs, ferocity, and condi changes, I would gladly welcome so more variety, I remember back in early release you could litteraly 1 shot any class with dd this is no longer the case, (prob for a better more fair gameplay i suppose) again my issue goes back to balance.. were in a tough spot right now.

ades.1386:

>1. Condi clearance / we simply cannot keep up with condi builds even if you max out SA

actually if you max out SA condition builds are pretty simple due to high amount of condi removal + heal
unless they are kiting a lot and you are d/d

ades.1386:

>2. Heavily reliant on stealth/blinds to stay alive (again for condi clearing, and our low health ((Im gona be stuck at 12k health after the whole guard stack going away…))

true that, but rather “stealth/blind/evade” because of 20066 SA

ades.1386:

;3.many would argue we are 1 trick pony’s being backstab or pure spam condi builds

gotta disagree here, play something but x66xx D/D, D/P or so… go for 20066 S/D or 60206 D/P and then things are quite different, nothing like being a 1-trick-pony

but well…
SB being meh? no sir, its just more of a utility weapon
1 = aoe against multiples [immob on stealth]
2 = game’s best blast finisher
3 = nice evade/kiting ability
4 = poison to reduce healing
5 = mobility + spammeable teleport for ledges & so on

i agree with trait changes though (like the loved \cough/ Last Refuge aka Get f___ed by a Minor)
better condi remove apart from SE
overwork of SA as it gives too much passive stuff atm (stealth without SA is pretty lackluster, stealth with SA is really really strong with all the passivity and sustain)

Gona have to try that later, thanks for the ideas! im running the dp meta and its not doing me any favors at the moment :P

ades.1386:

Gona have to try that later, thanks for the ideas! im running the dp meta and its not doing me any favors at the moment :P

Actually the two builds i mentioned are also the meta – just in pvp not in wvw :P
i use them in wvw as well though and they work just fine, short simple tips:

S/D 20066 – you mostly use 1-3, rarely 4 (unless you want some minor ranged dmg if you dont wanna switch to shortbow) and sometimes (from time to time against warriors/guards and so on) 5 for the daze
with pack runes you got perma furt and its important to hit your steal
a short tip that helps as well from sizer iirc:
“spam less 3 and more 2”

D/P 60206 – i play it full berserker like everything on my thief because of the low crit chance due to lack of CS (critical strikes) – panic strike + improvisation are nice traits, along with the fully buffed steal (make sure to hit it)
also, this relies less on the bp+hs-combo but opens up way more for some tactical shadow shots and head shots in between

both take some time to learn to play though as they are way more active than anything like x66xx

I agree that there should be more builds out there for thieves to utilize, however I don’t think that lessening the reliance on stealth is the solution. We are squishy, yes, but we also have the some of the scariest burst in the game. Making us tankier and more of a “warrior” type would mean that we would have to sacrifice something else, and that something could be our strong spike damage. Stealth is our defense. We use it to run, we use it to clear conditions, we use it to regen, we use it to gain the upper hand in fights. Without stealth we are nothing.

Not to mention, stealth is the sole reason many thieves (including me) play thief. It’s just fun. The stealth & burst gameplay has been a thieves role since launch, and I don’t see them changing it any time soon. Even if they did do something this drastic, they would have to change the whole SA traitline too.

Buell.3701:

I agree that there should be more builds out there for thieves to utilize, however I don’t think that lessening the reliance on stealth is the solution. We are squishy, yes, but we also have the some of the scariest burst in the game. Making us tankier and more of a “warrior” type would mean that we would have to sacrifice something else, and that something could be our strong spike damage. Stealth is our defense. We use it to run, we use it to clear conditions, we use it to regen, we use it to gain the upper hand in fights. Without stealth we are nothing.

Not to mention, stealth is the sole reason many thieves (including me) play thief. It’s just fun. The stealth & burst gameplay has been a thieves role since launch, and I don’t see them changing it any time soon. Even if they did do something this drastic, they would have to change the whole SA traitline too.

yes, we need more build options so I’m brainstorming other ideas for various reasons.

I never mentioned anything about being a tank or “warrior” type and that was not the intent of my suggestions. Maybe I could have explained the “heartier” comment a bit more directly, but it is better explained with the comments below it.

The suggestions that I mentioned still makes a thief a thief with the best burst, mobility, stealth options and escapes, but changes the mid fight mechanics with the visible “forms”. These ’forms" could provide baseline defense against damage and traits could be used to enhance these “forms” in different ways such as improved health, stability, condition removal, initiative, movement… Think of mid combat “forms” as a revamped stealth that could provide better core gameplay options, build flexibility and add a different dynamic to combat.

edit- I am also aware that we can all talk about each specific weapon, attack, trait, skill…, but that’s not what this thread was started for so put the numbers and stats away and focus on these ideas in general terms.

Condition clearing has to be made more accessible, and/or health pools need to increase. Especially with the absolutely absurd incoming buffs to condi builds and some of the conditions that the thief kit simply has very tough times dealing with, such as confusion and torment (cannot be removed by HiS/Pain Response).

DeceiverX.8361:

Condition clearing has to be made more accessible, and/or health pools need to increase.

Practiced Tolerance will get a buff from 7% vit to 10% vit.

Especially with the absolutely absurd incoming buffs to condi builds and some of the conditions that the thief kit simply has very tough times dealing with, such as confusion and torment (cannot be removed by HiS/Pain Response).

Tricks will have condition removal when spec’d to Trickster so Withdraw, which will be a Trick skill class, will remove movement impairs + x condition(s) (not sure how many conditions yet).

So it seems that ArenaNet is aware of these imbalances and giving us more access to cleanse and vitality.

One thing to consider in light of the new systems coming into place is how the Theif traditionally received boons in game.

Unlike other classes our weapon sets on their own provide NO sources of boons. We have no warhorn to give might/fury/swiftness or attacks that provide retaliation. Obviously part of the reason for this was so we could not spam said boons due to the INI system albeit some other classes have limited availability on a weapon Auto attack.

Nor do we have much in the way of sources in our Utilities. There no signet of rage that offers might/fury/swiftness or retreat that offers every boon. How we got our boons was through traits such as might on stealth , furious retaliation , and swiftness on a kill.

Many of those sources have been removed and I think that my own major concern.

How will we get boons many of which will be much more easily acquired by other classes? If our sources of swiftness/fury/might/stability and the like much LOWER then other classes does that make our relative spike damage less and our mobility less?

babazhook.6805:

One thing to consider in light of the new systems coming into place is how the Theif traditionally received boons in game.

Unlike other classes our weapon sets on their own provide NO sources of boons. We have no warhorn to give might/fury/swiftness or attacks that provide retaliation. Obviously part of the reason for this was so we could not spam said boons due to the INI system albeit some other classes have limited availability on a weapon Auto attack.

Nor do we have much in the way of sources in our Utilities. There no signet of rage that offers might/fury/swiftness or retreat that offers every boon. How we got our boons was through traits such as might on stealth , furious retaliation , and swiftness on a kill.

Many of those sources have been removed and I think that my own major concern.

How will we get boons many of which will be much more easily acquired by other classes? If our sources of swiftness/fury/might/stability and the like much LOWER then other classes does that make our relative spike damage less and our mobility less?

Funny enough, we have pretty good (compared to our other sources) source of boon on S/D via boon stripping – It’s not that we have lots of access to boons that makes this work… it’s that our enemies have lots of access to boons that this works. Which is pretty troll…

There was a discussion sometime ago how thieves are reliant on the surrounding environment (mainly wvw), well with that they also seem to be reliant on their enemies to get boons (like mesmers if you steal, or those eles if you strip).

Zero Day.2594:

babazhook.6805:

One thing to consider in light of the new systems coming into place is how the Theif traditionally received boons in game.

Unlike other classes our weapon sets on their own provide NO sources of boons. We have no warhorn to give might/fury/swiftness or attacks that provide retaliation. Obviously part of the reason for this was so we could not spam said boons due to the INI system albeit some other classes have limited availability on a weapon Auto attack.

Nor do we have much in the way of sources in our Utilities. There no signet of rage that offers might/fury/swiftness or retreat that offers every boon. How we got our boons was through traits such as might on stealth , furious retaliation , and swiftness on a kill.

Many of those sources have been removed and I think that my own major concern.

How will we get boons many of which will be much more easily acquired by other classes? If our sources of swiftness/fury/might/stability and the like much LOWER then other classes does that make our relative spike damage less and our mobility less?

Funny enough, we have pretty good (compared to our other sources) source of boon on S/D via boon stripping – It’s not that we have lots of access to boons that makes this work… it’s that our enemies have lots of access to boons that this works. Which is pretty troll…

There was a discussion sometime ago how thieves are reliant on the surrounding environment (mainly wvw), well with that they also seem to be reliant on their enemies to get boons (like mesmers if you steal, or those eles if you strip).

Which MIGHT suggest our new spec having an even greater ability to outright steal boons off others.

babazhook.6805:

Which MIGHT suggest our new spec having an even greater ability to outright steal boons off others.

Doubtful… If it is a rifle, steeling boons from a distance? Maybe just removing boons – “Piercing through them”.

I would be surprised if it brings a lot to the table, besides the 1200 range – the rifle.

On topic though, don’t really disagree with any of them. The thing is though, I doubt any sort of intense work will be done.
MAYBE over the span of ~3 years (based on the rate of “balance” patches) we might see some sort of change in that direction (as in, rework of stealth and being stealthless), but yeah… Not going to put in the care for those 3 years or however long it takes them.
(Of topic…) The game is nice, in the sense that when I’m frustrated with how things are be it balance, be it lack of rewards, be it lack of any incentive to do anything in the game… I can just not play it for a while, troll the forums, do other things. They really nailed it with B2P and not P2P.

It is not very convincing to start with " i have been leveling up x class" and then start telling how the class should be changed…

Shortbow is absolutely fine as it is, it has crazy good utility pve and pvp wise and good damage unless you are trying to use clusterbomb from max distance. There is a reason why you see every thief using it in every gamemode.

I don’t think the stealth reliance is a problem either, a lot of people really like that way of play and there are surely ways to make class interesting even if anet have to always balance it around stealth. And then there are builds like s/d which is still really good, and less common builds like d/d condi which is also better than many expect it to be, that use stealth very little.

Swagger.1459:

1. Shortbow feels really meh. I would suggest combining cluster bomb and choking gas and keep it in the 4th attack slot. Speed up the projectile as well. Having moved and combine the aoes, I would add in some type of single target attack in the #2 slot.

As much of a newbie as I am, the main thing I use the shortbow for in PvP is Infiltrator’s Arrow to get to a point quickly. I would definitely be interested in the ability (even traited) to be able to shoot two different arrows at once, assuming I have enough initiative.

The main use for me would be the Choking Gas/Cluster Bomb combo. As it is now, it feels so slow to get the blast finisher before the poison field wears off. Personally, I wish the Cluster Bomb was either faster (for obvious reasons) or even slower. Currently, I can launch a Cluster Bomb first, then shoot Choking Gas immediately… and I only get the successful combo at the absolute extremity of my range. It would be nice if I could do that at any range.

But being able to shoot multiple arrows at once seems like it could bring in some interesting combinations. For example, Disabling Shot with Infiltrator’s Arrow. An evasive retreat with an immediate shadowstep to/behind the target upon landing. Oh, the joys of being a thief!

In the immortal words of the movie Topgun…

“Where’d he go?”
“Where’d WHO go???”

Swagger.1459:

Been on my thief a slight bit to level up and I have some suggestions…

1. Shortbow feels really meh. I would suggest combining cluster bomb and choking gas and keep it in the 4th attack slot. Speed up the projectile as well. Having moved and combine the aoes, I would add in some type of single target attack in the #2 slot.

2. I would like to see some major sensible changes to the class as a whole. I’m not going to go into specific details and numbers, but I believe following these suggestions will have the best long term positive impact on gameplay and future balance…

- Thieves are way too reliant on layering and investing in stealth for overall survival and performance. While some of you may like this gameplay design and would argue for it until the end of the universe, you will eventually come to understand that having the devs pour everything important into this “1 trick” is bad. Doing so limits growth potential in many other critical areas that need work and will force any future changes and improvements to revolve around the “we can’t do stuff because of stealth this and stealth that” scenarios. You will ultimately find yourself asking why thieves can’t have “nice things” and that answer will be because of the current stealth designs and mechanics.

-I would like to see thief become a “heartier” profession without the stealth reliance crutch.

-Stealth should be an attack opener and as an emergency elite ability escape which still sets the tone for combat and still provides the best potential retreats.

-Change all mid combat stealth powers, and things that affect stealth, to something like a visible “mist” type form or visible “shadow shroud” of sorts that reduces damage from all sources when struck. These forms or shrouds would still allow the thief to perform normally and traits can be tailored to provide bonuses and enhance these states.

Before you all jump in here and start foaming at the mouths, just realize that my general suggestions allow for the developers to create more diversity with builds and future specializations. It puts thieves in a more survivable category during combat naturally. It still provides the best combat mobility while still offering stealth and stealth-like abilities. It becomes a lot more interesting in combat for both the player and opponent.

I’ll keep messing with my thief so I’m less of a newbie, but I think this profession needs a lot of work and could be in a much-much-much better place overall.

I, literally, disagree with every single letter you posted. Thief needs help, but your suggestions are not the “help” we need.