Guild Wars 2

Good thing that open field 1v1 in WvW is actually not a balanced game mode

GG

As promised…

It’d be nice if some of you tried to have an actual conversation about it instead of:

• Beating a poor defenseless horse while it tries to nap
• Complain that Thieves are OP
• Complain that people complain that Thieves are OP

Some people have made good points, but they get drowned out by the people doing these other things.

Since stealth seems to be the thing that annoys most people, here’s a simple question:

If the Thief class had less access to Stealth … let’s say the same amount of stealth as a Mesmer … what do you think they’d need in order to retain their survivability ?

• Access to protection?
• Access to stability?
• Even more evasion?
• Even more mobility?
• Higher base hitpoints?

… do we just need to have that discussion in a thread that doesn’t have this thread’s name … I’m personally not a fan of it either and I don’t even main a Thief (just dabble)

There is no constructive conversation because it is unnecessary – Major overhauls to class mechanics DO NOT happen 3+ years into the life span of the game

Ranger will always have a pet – Necro will always have deathshroud -Thief will always have stealth

Learn to Play or find a different game – simple

It could be argued that Thief’s class mechanic is Steal.

Some weapons have received changes throughout the life of the game.

Weapon changes could potentially reduce the level of access to stealth that Thieves have.

So it could happen.

As far as learn to play, please see post history. This is not my topic and I’m not for Thieves being nerfed. I think Thief is a class with an awesomely high skill ceiling.

I merely wish to discuss. Again, see my post history and you’ll see that. It’s far from a L2P issue.

@Sebrent.
In regards to the “revealed” reversion in PvE/WvW: (IIRC-) It was reverted due to the idea that a typical Thief AA cycle is ~3 seconds. Having to work around that additional second thus screws with a Thief player’s rotations.

As for Stealth, it’s quite simple.

• There need to be equivalent options in both Shadow Arts and Acrobatics.

Fact is, until that is the case, you will always see more folk going heavy into SA.
Take Assassin’s Reward versus Shadow’s Rejuvenation, as an example. Let’s also not even discuss that Assassin’s Equilibrium — an Acrobatics GM Trait — relies on stealth for its bonus to trigger … Frankly, it’s a matter of front-loading the absolute hell out of stealth-oriented setups, so that the devs can sweep overall design issues under the rug.

Sebrent.3625:

It’d be nice if some of you tried to have an actual conversation about it instead of:

• Beating a poor defenseless horse while it tries to nap
• Complain that Thieves are OP
• Complain that people complain that Thieves are OP

…

:D But people like beating dead horses… Here let’s go to the general forums and open up a topic on capes or Cantha. Never mind, the thread about Cantha is still going on, don’t think it ever stopped.

People don’t really want change, instead they either come here to vent or to make suggestions in making their own (and like minded people) lives easier.

And complaining about the complaining, well after +2 years, their complaining is getting old.

You also won’t haven any sort of meaningful discussion because someone that’s buthurt will eventually step in to say something about their rash – and that’s when the thread will go down hill.

@Advent:
Thanks. Some good points.
Any specific ideas you have in mind for any moving/replacing/tweaking you think would improve things for everyone (Thieves and non-Thieves) ?

I’ve always been a fan of Acrobatics. I’ve seen some sick Sword+Dagger Thieves that focus on:

• Gain back some Endurance when you Dodge Roll
• Vigor up-time
• Initiative regen

They evade/dodge for days and it’s pretty awesome to watch … though they frustate the heck out of me when I have to fight them … but I always respect them. It’s harder than it looks to evade/dodge that much and still tear people apart.

@Zero Day:
Someone saying something rash doesn’t force anyone else to join in. People can choose to be mature, ignore it, and move on.

Just as there are several examples of immaturity on the forums, there are also several examples of maturity being shown as well.

Which examples you provide is up to each individual.

@Sebrent

While that’s true in most social situation that would happen in real life…
On the forums it’s a bit different. There’s nothing preventing the “immature” person from continuing with their actions and even attacking/provoking those that are “mature”. To add to this, besides those participating in the discussion right now, more can come and go at any time, and typically the amount of “immaturity” will increase. So while you’re trying to have some sort of meaningful discussion the toxic background noise (I don’t think mature/immature is too correct of a term) will continuously increase.

A good example of a thread that exhibited this would be:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/whole-team-beat-by-single-thief/

The OP got the best answers on the first page, everything after the first page… Eventually the mods closed the thread down…

So they got one good page and then people couldn’t be mature/non-toxic.

Doesn’t mean we can’t have this discussion. I’m hoping to hear back from Advent about my earlier questions … and any others that wish to have an actual conversation (note: not argument).

You don’t have to be able to physically deal with people to have an environment where you can have a discussion.

There are a few things that could be done to somewhat normalize the SA/Acro divide.

• Assassin’s Reward needs better scaling than it currently possesses.
• Pain Response should be retweaked to remove Torment … especially when one considers that PR also handles other “pain” conditions (i.e. Burning, Bleeding, Poison).
• I would not be adverse to adding another Might stack to Power of Inertia.
• Fleet of Foot removes Cripple/Weakness. I’m a bit surprised that Immob. wasn’t added to that.
• Assassin’s Equilibrium … seriously, it’s an insult to hand Revenants Stability-on-dodge, when AE should have honestly been the original Dodge-Stability.

Although, these are just from my opinion. I’d think others on this side of the forum jungle would mostly agree.

Advent.6193:

There are a few things that could be done to somewhat normalize the SA/Acro divide.

• Assassin’s Reward needs better scaling than it currently possesses.
• Pain Response should be retweaked to remove Torment … especially when one considers that PR also handles other “pain” conditions (i.e. Burning, Bleeding, Poison).
• I would not be adverse to adding another Might stack to Power of Inertia.
• Fleet of Foot removes Cripple/Weakness. I’m a bit surprised that Immob. wasn’t added to that.
• Assassin’s Equilibrium … seriously, it’s an insult to hand Revenants Stability-on-dodge, when AE should have honestly been the original Dodge-Stability.

Although, these are just from my opinion. I’d think others on this side of the forum jungle would mostly agree.

Yeah… I also noticed that when I was reading Revenant’s traits and noticed the 3 point master trait which resembled AE quite a bit… The duration on revenant’s version (from wiki) is 2.5 while the thief’s is 1.5. The trait for revenants is placed into a tank-type tree, ours is in acro…
O well, seems balanced.

@Advent: Awesome :-)

For Assassin’s Reward, would you accept better scaling or better base healing or pretty set on the scaling coefficient being more thkitten ? I can see good reasons for either, but I’m curious about your thoughts.

For Pain Response, I agree. There are several non-Thief traits/skills that are like this as well and should likely be updated to account for this new damaging trait … though maybe we’re wrong … none of them mention Confusion either.

I’m not sure about another stack of Might from Power of Inertia given how much a Thief can Dodge with Feline Grace and Vigor; especially given the base 15s duration on that Might.

Fleet of Foot would be hard-pressed to remove immobilize when you Dodge since when you’re immobilized you can’t dodge :-)

I actually think Assassin’s equilibrium isn’t that bad. Thief just has some really darn good choices for GM. I think the logic behind that one is that most classes wait for the Thief to come out of stealth and then we CC you to death while killing you. This prevents that initial CC. Now, whether or not it needs a tweak is another question. At least it doesn’t have an ICD :-) I think it has more use for a non-Sword Thief as a Sword Thief is already going to Daze their target with their attack from Stealth.

Any other Trait lines?

Well, either idea can work on Assassin’s Reward, tbh. The main issue is that it’s a GM and, even after it was (so-called!) “buffed,” it’s still not honestly worth a GM slot.

As for Fleet of Foot? That same argument can be made for being “Crippled,” but we see how that works out in code-logic. You could lore-blame it on that “Denial” Magic both Thieves and Mesmers are known for.

And, it’s less that AE is bad, and more that it seems (as currently designed) suited for SA than for Acro. Of course, I could make the same argument for Fleet Shadow. As for Traits with ICDs, you’ve seen my opinion of the mess ANet made of Mesmer Traits with ICDs … the less of the same crap I see on the Thief side, the better. >_<

Aye, I could see Assassin’s Reward better fitting into Shadow Arts. That makes sense.

I’m not understanding your point with FLeet of Foot. You can dodge roll when you are crippled/chilled. You can not dodge roll when immobilized. So a trait that says dodge rolls remove immobilize doesn’t seem useful to me since the condition is cleansed by doing something the condition prevents.

Are you saying you want the trait to also read “Immobilize does not prevent dodge rolls” ? That’d be an interested concept … but that would be extremely powerful since most burst are lead by a stun or immobilize … especially against slippery Thieves :-p

Aye, I hate what they did with the ICDs for Mesmer. Whenever I feel like being a tanky Mesmer I get a little sad and mad because I can’t do it nearly as well as I used to … and I was never a PU build … just got nerfed because of the griping about it :-/

Sebrent.3625:

Aye, I could see Assassin’s Reward better fitting into Shadow Arts. That makes sense.

Heh. I meant Equilibrium, there. (Unfortunate side-effect of multiple Traits with the same first word ) And, I only mean Assassin’s Equilibrium as currently coded. I still think that should have been Stability-on-Dodge. After all, that would at least be a more “Acrobatic” concept.

Sebrent.3625:

I’m not understanding your point with FLeet of Foot. You can dodge roll when you are crippled/chilled. You can not dodge roll when immobilized. So a trait that says dodge rolls remove immobilize doesn’t seem useful to me since the condition is cleansed by doing something the condition prevents.

My point there is that: the Trait already has a base benefit of cancelling out two “movement-imparing” Conditions (i.e. Chill/Cripple). I merely suggest enhancing its known functionality, since Immobilize can also be considered a “movement-imparing”
Condition.

Are you saying you want the trait to also read “Immobilize does not prevent dodge rolls” ? That’d be an interested concept … but that would be extremely powerful since most burst are lead by a stun or immobilize … especially against slippery Thieves :-p

Now, that’s something I didn’t even consider … I’d like to see others’ opinions on something like this.

Sebrent.3625:

Aye, I hate what they did with the ICDs for Mesmer. Whenever I feel like being a tanky Mesmer I get a little sad and mad because I can’t do it nearly as well as I used to … and I was never a PU build … just got nerfed because of the griping about it :-/

I’ve run Condition and/or Interrupt since start. We’ll save my Glamour-nerf rants for the Mes Forums.
(Although, this kind of thing is why I always say Mesmers and Thieves should honestly stick together: both have eaten some annoying nerfbat, due to QQ about the opponent having to fight a “slippery” class. I say, learn the Mindkitten … love the Mindkitten.)

Zero Day.2594:

@Sebrent

While that’s true in most social situation that would happen in real life…
On the forums it’s a bit different. There’s nothing preventing the “immature” person from continuing with their actions and even attacking/provoking those that are “mature”. To add to this, besides those participating in the discussion right now, more can come and go at any time, and typically the amount of “immaturity” will increase. So while you’re trying to have some sort of meaningful discussion the toxic background noise (I don’t think mature/immature is too correct of a term) will continuously increase.

A good example of a thread that exhibited this would be:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/whole-team-beat-by-single-thief/

The OP got the best answers on the first page, everything after the first page… Eventually the mods closed the thread down…

I don’t think the OP in that thread knew anything about how to fight thieves. I got about halfway through the first page and he says the thiefwas running S/P +SB, was stealthing continually, and had high condition damage and bleeds.

-.-

Maugetarr.6823:

I don’t think the OP in that thread knew anything about how to fight thieves. I got about halfway through the first page and he says the thief was running S/P +SB, was stealthing continually, and had high condition damage and bleeds.

-.-

Oh yeah I doubt it… it just it started to turn into a kitten show after the first page, and even on the first page there were some posts that… well, didn’t help the OP much at all.

I haven’t heard so much kittening about stealth since Burning Crusade.

noynek.8953:

I haven’t heard so much kittening about stealth since Burning Crusade.

Well, I think it is a crusade of some sort….

Zero Day.2594:

Maugetarr.6823:

I don’t think the OP in that thread knew anything about how to fight thieves. I got about halfway through the first page and he says the thief was running S/P +SB, was stealthing continually, and had high condition damage and bleeds.

-.-

Oh yeah I doubt it… it just it started to turn into a kitten show after the first page, and even on the first page there were some posts that… well, didn’t help the OP much at all.

Well, I think therein lies the problem. There are a few distinct flavors of thief and when people don’t know how to handle one or two of them they all get lumped under “OP thief.”

Well it might not be op, but it sure is not very well created. They call it stealth but it’s really not, if it were stealth it might be more enjoyable to fight a thief.

aspirine.6852:

Well it might not be op, but it sure is not very well created. They call it stealth but it’s really not, if it were stealth it might be more enjoyable to fight a thief.

I go invisible at times and people can’t find me for a few seconds. Looks a lot like stealth to me. What’s your definition of video game stealth?

Turk.5460:

aspirine.6852:

Well it might not be op, but it sure is not very well created. They call it stealth but it’s really not, if it were stealth it might be more enjoyable to fight a thief.

I go invisible at times and people can’t find me for a few seconds. Looks a lot like stealth to me. What’s your definition of video game stealth?

Stealth is more very hard to see. Invisibility is not that.

Turk.5460:

I go invisible at times and people can’t find me for a few seconds. Looks a lot like stealth to me. What’s your definition of video game stealth?

Planetside 2 stealth I suppose. The cloak would only give you partial invisibility if you were running around, but not many people would pay attention to you if they’re worried about getting shot by the huge number of enemies around.

If stealth was only partial invisibility or something like that, opponents would remain wary of both visible and cloaked opponents, I’m afraid, they’d have enough focus for that unless the battles were extremely large.

Also, I do tend to be tired of abused stealth mechanics, I’ve seen more exciting things than playing cat and mouse while baiting 2 to 3 get out of jail free cards before coming to a conclusion. I suppose it’s more fun for the opponent. I’ve been ruining some people’s days comboing Smoke bomb into Supply Crate, despite hating the Bomb Kit itself, and using the thrown Elixir S. It’s not against the Thieves and Mesmers themselves, just stealth. It’s a delicate change to ask for, too delicate to actually be changed, understandable.

It’s my opinion that most of the people who quit PvP/WvW do so because of stealth.

Svarty.8019:

It’s my opinion that most of the people who quit PvP/WvW do so because of stealth.

Let’s make sure to emphasize that cough cough lag,MMR etc. cough.

The biggest problem with stealth in this game is that it cannot be broken. Most games invisibility or stealth is removed upon taking damage. For some reason Anet does not understand the balance aspects of that and decided to avoid that in this game.

From a logical perspective it doesnt even make sense how something can remain stealthed after being crippled stunned etc…

MrForz.1953:

Turk.5460:

I go invisible at times and people can’t find me for a few seconds. Looks a lot like stealth to me. What’s your definition of video game stealth?

Planetside 2 stealth I suppose. The cloak would only give you partial invisibility if you were running around, but not many people would pay attention to you if they’re worried about getting shot by the huge number of enemies around.

If stealth was only partial invisibility or something like that, opponents would remain wary of both visible and cloaked opponents, I’m afraid, they’d have enough focus for that unless the battles were extremely large.

You obviously didn’t play Planetside 2 for very long. Cloaking in that game was useless. The predator light bending thing was so easy to spot. Even in pitched battles, I could spot an infiltrator from a hundred leagues. Mobility is such a huge aspect in both games, implementing that kind of stealth mechanic in GW2 would effectively break stealth completely.

Soon… I will post my obligatorily picture of beating a dead horse….
Soon….

noynek.8953:

You obviously didn’t play Planetside 2 for very long. Cloaking in that game was useless. The predator light bending thing was so easy to spot. Even in pitched battles, I could spot an infiltrator from a hundred leagues. Mobility is such a huge aspect in both games, implementing that kind of stealth mechanic in GW2 would effectively break stealth completely.

Only a mere 2 years. And and I don’t talk about using hunter cloak (or even stalker cloak) to go blindly through long distances without the use of your recon tools, of course you’ll get spotted, infact you’d deserve to get spotted, the cloaking was just a little thumbs up, not a crutch, that’s what separated basic infiltrators from excellent, and especially annoying ones, if you were to go SMG. It’s much, much easier with a sniper rifle.

Aaaand, I merely pointed out that one mechanic. There’s also the Tribes stealth, completly invisible, the more you moved the more energy you drained and you’d be revealed when taking damage or when out of energy.

The problem with partial stealth is a technical issue.

Everything is a client-server communication. If your machine (the client) doesn’t need to see anything about the completely invisible player, then the server doesn’t have to send you any information about where it is so your client has no clue.

If stealth is partial, then the server needs to send to the client the information about where the partially stealthed entity is so that the client can show whatever is shown for that partially stealthed entity. This can be exploited as the Client can be modified to ignore the partial stealth effect and just show the entity as fully unstealthed.

For this reason, I’m not a fan of partial stealth, transparent stealth, etc..

I think many people’s issue with Thief stem from:

(1) Getting hit by burst that has no telegraph … Thief isn’t the only one that can do this, but probably has some of the most encountered.

(2) Great mobility … so when “build wars” occurs and Thief hard counters you… you’re not likely to escape … while the Thief is likely to escape if you hard counter them.

@Advent:
I’d be okay with stability if the Thief still had a window of time where they were both able to be CC’d and not stealthed. That is the big issue with stability on a Thief. Top-level Thieves are usually stealthed or evading … or have CC’d/LOS’d you so they don’t have to be evading/stealthed for a moment.

I’m all about there being counterplay. If there was a way to have Thief have telegraphs for everything like the Warrior does … but still retain a similar level of survivability and uniqueness, then I would say that was the perfect direction to go.

I use Warrior as an example as practically everything, if not everything they do (especially their “big hits”) has a telegraph that allows their opponent to try to react.

… Your Thief Steal and Backstab don’t allow this.
… My Mesmer Mantras (Pain & Distraction) don’t allow this.
… and so on.

Sebrent.3625:

I’m all about there being counterplay. If there was a way to have Thief have telegraphs for everything like the Warrior does … but still retain a similar level of survivability and uniqueness, then I would say that was the perfect direction to go.

I’ve said this so many times, but Thief stealth is telegraphed – heavily. In the case of D/P Thieves it is one of the easiest telegraphs to recognize in the entire game and the BP+HS combo takes 1.25 seconds to complete (same time as Kill Shot) with a down payment of 9 non-refundable initiative if your HS gets interrupted, or you get CCed, knocked back, etc.

Backstab has no telegraph, but its prerequisite does. If we give Backstab a telegraph, are Thieves going to get the ability to instantly stealth at will?

Edit: And even better, in the case of something like Kill Shot or Earthshaker, if the opponent fails to respond to the telegraph – they get hit with the skill. If the opponent fails to respond to a stealth skill, there is still counter play to stop a backstab and Thieves often get no backstab after gaining stealth.

How hasn’t this thread switched to page 4.

@morbidillusion:
Aye, I never said that methods for gaining stealth did not have telegraphs. In fact, there are few ways to get stealth without some telegraph.

From my personal opinion, all abilities that affect your opponent(s) should have some telegraph as it generates additional chances for counterplay.

Now, if you believe adding a telegraph to any currently non-telegraphed abilities needs some compensation for them to remain viable, I’m all ears.

Currently, I don’t believe that stealth requiring a telegraph should dictate whether or not other abilities should/shouldn’t have telegraphs as stealth alone has its own benefit(s) … largely dependent on build, of course.

@Zero:
Can you please refer to our earlier discussion and choose the “mature” route. I feel that if you did you could contribute something meaningful.

Sebrent.3625:

@Zero:
Can you please refer to our earlier discussion and choose the “mature” route. I feel that if you did you could contribute something meaningful.

Barely, most of topics/themes discussed have been discussed to death already for the past ~2 years – with barely to no outcome in terms of what’s been patched in and the QQ’ing communities ability to adept, develop, and grow in a way that would benefit themselves (as in taking advice on say dodging, AoE’ing, or not standing still).

It is fun though, watching the two sides (well, not really two sides, sometimes it’s a free-for-all) bashing their heads against each other, while waiting for the “balance” patch that’s coming around the time of HoT. Hence I’m here

States.6387:

The biggest problem with stealth in this game is that it cannot be broken. Most games invisibility or stealth is removed upon taking damage. For some reason Anet does not understand the balance aspects of that and decided to avoid that in this game.

From a logical perspective it doesnt even make sense how something can remain stealthed after being crippled stunned etc…

Do you not see the trade off? What other games offer only a few seconds of stealth at a time? The ones you are referring to are permanent stealth mechanics that are meant for sneaking around before a fight. GW2 stealth is made to be a part of the fight. You’re comparing two whole different worlds here…

Turk.5460:

States.6387:

The biggest problem with stealth in this game is that it cannot be broken. Most games invisibility or stealth is removed upon taking damage. For some reason Anet does not understand the balance aspects of that and decided to avoid that in this game.

From a logical perspective it doesnt even make sense how something can remain stealthed after being crippled stunned etc…

Do you not see the trade off? What other games offer only a few seconds of stealth at a time? The ones you are referring to are permanent stealth mechanics that are meant for sneaking around before a fight. GW2 stealth is made to be a part of the fight. You’re comparing two whole different worlds here…

I do not agree with you. See Guild Wars: Assassin-True Assassin Master Profession. They Never need Perma-stealth or even stealth for sneaking around before a fight. Even Ninja Profession in other mmo game-True Stealth Master Profession Perma-stealth have nothing to do with sneaking around before a fight. It is very bad excuse for thief class.

Perma=Permanant. Again, what do Permanant have to do with stealth? Here is Perma-Permanant def- “existing perpetually; everlasting, especially without significant change”.

Where in permanat definition do you see the word “permanent stealth mechanics that are meant for sneaking around before a fight” ? I do not see it?

What do Permanant have to do with challenge? Nothing! at all. It is opposite to challenge and it destroy fun.

Example: Car Race- some cars are allowed to have boost but something bad happen: there is a car (thief) has Perma-boost. The race start, the perma-boost win: should perma-boost car win award? Obvious No!

Not only thief have Perma but othre class too: that is reason why they are not challenge and fun.

See this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QVy_C-Z0-k

Turk is 100% correct.

Man… people get the definition of permanent correct, but seem to mess up when they try to apply it..

Sebrent.3625:

@morbidillusion:
Aye, I never said that methods for gaining stealth did not have telegraphs. In fact, there are few ways to get stealth without some telegraph.

From my personal opinion, all abilities that affect your opponent(s) should have some telegraph as it generates additional chances for counterplay.

Now, if you believe adding a telegraph to any currently non-telegraphed abilities needs some compensation for them to remain viable, I’m all ears.

Currently, I don’t believe that stealth requiring a telegraph should dictate whether or not other abilities should/shouldn’t have telegraphs as stealth alone has its own benefit(s) … largely dependent on build, of course.

@Zero:
Can you please refer to our earlier discussion and choose the “mature” route. I feel that if you did you could contribute something meaningful.

I agree and disagree. The prerequisites for stealth are what have to be avoided, and the animation on the stab itself is rather long. This creates a dynamic where the enemy player still has a chance to avoid the big burst of incoming damage even if they were hit with the move that got the thief into stealth (referring to X/D). It is D/P and builds using stealth utilities or steal on stealth to engage that make this arguable. Frankly, I think the problem exists more with those abilities themselves rather than the damage source thereafter. Too much of a tell, and the offhand and mainhand daggers become effectively useless for stealth-based attacks and burst builds.

I agree however, in that all incoming damage sources should be avoidable in terms of knowing your foe. I will say it straight: I often greatly outplay other thieves while playing my signet stab build. On average I would say, conservatively, that I avoid around 70% of all incoming steals and steal effects (mug, daze, confusion) from enemy thieves through anticipation and knowing the class and how people play it. Mind you, I play D/D, so I’m either doing this with normal rolls or the very small evade frame on Death Blossom.

What I have a big problem with is fire and air sigils contributing so heavily to damage. In many instances of fighting these thieves (or really any class) which I out-play, I find myself losing a lot of fights on the basis that the one or two hits that I do allow myself to be hit by because of their low scaling/damage or anticipated follow-up bomb, I’ll end up eating an additional 3-5k damage from nowhere on a crit. One can predict being attacked. One can predict the chances of being critically hit. It becomes very difficult to predict the chances of being critically hit based on damage from what may not even be damage from a past attack and whether or not that hit, if a critical strike, will proc fire/air. All of a sudden being at 7k health and taking a 1-3k damage auto-attack doesn’t feel so safe. Being able to only calculate risk when at or near maximum health just seems like poor design. That kind of lack of tell is something which I think should be removed more than anything else.

States.6387:

The biggest problem with stealth in this game is that it cannot be broken. Most games invisibility or stealth is removed upon taking damage. For some reason Anet does not understand the balance aspects of that and decided to avoid that in this game.

From a logical perspective it doesnt even make sense how something can remain stealthed after being crippled stunned etc…

erm, why should something be “unstealthed” if hit? did you manage to hit the on and off switch or something?

@DeceiverX:
I think we are very much on the same page :-)

I also strongly dislike Air & Fire sigils … though I use them in some builds because I’m not going to handicap myself. In my opinion, those allow RNG to play too big of a part in a fight. Thief MH Dagger loves this though because it hits so darn quickly.

I agree that the utilities that provide instant stealth with no counterplay could likely be part of the problem. If you Thief could only gain stealth via their interruptible heal or dodgeable/interruptable attacks, I think it would be a completely different story. In fact, the more I think about it the more I think you might be onto something there.

Going back to telegraphs, I was discussing this with a friend last night in TeamSpeak. Given 5 Thieves or 5 Warriors, I’m dead either way, but with the 5 Thieves I have no real chance as I have to anticipate 5 different Thieves’ burst. Against the Warriors I a much better chance of surviving a little bit longer given that I can see their telegraphs and react … I’ll just eventually run out of them and anyone that can’t dodge/block/etc. Warrior attacks is in for a pain train :-p

Sebrent.3625:

@DeceiverX:
I think we are very much on the same page :-)

I also strongly dislike Air & Fire sigils … though I use them in some builds because I’m not going to handicap myself. In my opinion, those allow RNG to play too big of a part in a fight. Thief MH Dagger loves this though because it hits so darn quickly.

I agree that the utilities that provide instant stealth with no counterplay could likely be part of the problem. If you Thief could only gain stealth via their interruptible heal or dodgeable/interruptable attacks, I think it would be a completely different story. In fact, the more I think about it the more I think you might be onto something there.

Going back to telegraphs, I was discussing this with a friend last night in TeamSpeak. Given 5 Thieves or 5 Warriors, I’m dead either way, but with the 5 Thieves I have no real chance as I have to anticipate 5 different Thieves’ burst. Against the Warriors I a much better chance of surviving a little bit longer given that I can see their telegraphs and react … I’ll just eventually run out of them and anyone that can’t dodge/block/etc. Warrior attacks is in for a pain train :-p

There’s only 1 non-interruptable, non-dodgeable way though which is blinding powder (Last Refuge by extension). Everything else can be interrupted, knocked out of, or dodged.

You can’t forget traits

• Hidden Thief … (stealth when stealing … stealing has no telegraph either)
• Instinctual Response … (takes more than 10% hp from a single hit)
• Last Refuge … (when at 25% hp)

IR and LR take some awareness from the Thief to not immediately break them, but they are instant.

There is also the leap finisher combo … though that can be expensive Initiative-wise … especially without points in Shadow Arts.

Generally, when talking about Zerker vs Thief that one instant stealth (or stealth from another source such as a pet, random mob, etc.) is more than enough to gain a solid advantage. There is a reason (actually, multiple reasons) that Thief is a top-dog in zerker meta :-)

DarkSyze.8627:

snip

I’m pretty sure you and everyone else understood exactly what I meant when I described “permanent” stealth before a fight. Picking apart the literal definition rather than the colloquial implied definition means you have nothing else to counter with.

Most of the people QQing about stealth and how it works seem to have this notion that all stealth must work like DAoC, or WoW or any other MMO with a stereotypical “rogue” archetype. They just need to realize that its not the same stealth, it never will be the same stealth, and it’s a pretty unique take on the stealth “norm.”

As far as the people who think this game would be better without stealth. You’re entitled to your opinion, however boring an opinion like that may be.

mako.2431:

No class should be able to attack, stealth when you attack them back, heal and clease while stealthed, then come out of steath and reattack you, rinse, repeat until you are dead.

I have no problem with thieves having escapability, none at all. My problem is in and out of stealth fighting bullspit. Enough, peroid. I don’t know of any other game that allows such crap. They should hit like a truck, they should be able to sneak around, they should be able to poof and escape AFTER their kill or to get out of a tough fight….but they should not be able to repeatedly re-stealth in the middle of a fight to heal and cleanse over and over, it is absolutely absurd.

/rant off….let the flaming begin

kitten another QQ thief stealth OP thread?

It’s getting old already. Thieves got enough nerfs already and they are not powerful as before and yet if u still QQ about it thats L2P problem. stop QQing and l2p

FYI Stealth mechanic is the same age as all other professions mechanics.

Volrath.1473:

FYI Stealth mechanic is the same age as all other professions mechanics.

If it was a profession mechanic…

Zero Day.2594:

Volrath.1473:

FYI Stealth mechanic is the same age as all other professions mechanics.

If it was a profession mechanic…

I think when everyone is QQing about “thief stealth” – they’re talking about certain traits interacting with stealth that they (wrongfully) think are too much.

Turk.5460:

DarkSyze.8627:

snip

I’m pretty sure you and everyone else understood exactly what I meant when I described “permanent” stealth before a fight. Picking apart the literal definition rather than the colloquial implied definition means you have nothing else to counter with.

Most of the people QQing about stealth and how it works seem to have this notion that all stealth must work like DAoC, or WoW or any other MMO with a stereotypical “rogue” archetype. They just need to realize that its not the same stealth, it never will be the same stealth, and it’s a pretty unique take on the stealth “norm.”

As far as the people who think this game would be better without stealth. You’re entitled to your opinion, however boring an opinion like that may be.

You can not make Opinion boring: it make no sense at all. You say it boring because you make it boring to you

In the end: opinion is still opinion