Guild Wars 2

WonderfulCT.6278:

Why would thieves have highest single target dps? Where is the logic here, does this feel enjoyable for pvp to you?

Highest burst would be fine but highest sustainable single target dps?

Are they supposed to lose duels?

Have you ever faced a war as thief?

Do you often lose?

I think most thieves beat wars in open combat (at least I do in wvw, spvp can be very different).

Now a good war can beat a good thief but in my experience thieves usually win. Giving them a damage boost would create too big of an imbalance in pvp.

The d/d auto attack could be buffed a bit but not to do more damage than a war.

Does any class often lose to a warrior in a duel? Warriors are not balanced in pvp imo and shouldn’t be used a measure of balance. You could argue any profession is OP by that standard.

If we look at the pve side of things then warrior is very strong, possibly too strong. They generally offer the best dps while also having good staying power with options for good group support. Thieves have lower armor, health and less access to abilities to mitigate incoming damage. All professions should have something to bring to the group that they are one of the best at, yet thieves currently have nothing to offer really.

@ensign……speak it brotha lol…..and hitting a BS every 4 secs is insane…..would never happen but that just goes to show u how the sustained dmg of a thief isnt near warrior.

Travlane.5948:

warriors have always had the highest dps melee aoe in game….thieves HAD the highest single target. now thieves are tied for 2nd/3rd with warriors even tho warriors deal more dmg by atleast double. speed of their gs is faster than our 1hs? wierd. dmg is higher too and targets up to 5 in 130 range. when mug was nerfed thief went from 1st on single target dps to 3rd.

Thief sword and warrior GS have the same cast times of 1/2 second. The damage is higher because they can’t stealth and they only hit 3 targets, not five. So the extra 3k-4k (?) damage from the crit drops the thief two spots? Not saying warriors dont have high damage, just dislike when people throw inaccurate stats around in arguments.

WonderfulCT.6278:

Why would thieves have highest single target dps? Where is the logic here, does this feel enjoyable for pvp to you?

Well, they want to assassinate everyone and disappear in the shadows like a true shadow ninja assassin, so yes, I suppose.

WonderfulCT.6278:

Are they supposed to lose duels?

They are supposed to be deadly duelists.

WonderfulCT.6278:

Have you ever faced a war as thief?

Do you often lose?

For my part yes, I did, and no, I only barely lose, Warriors only really counter hard CC packing classes, and they need a build for that most of the time. I barely need to use stealth at all, I could be slotting my bar with dodge rolls and I’d be just fine.

The only thing that prevents a Thief from being completly gamebreakingly overpowered is that the damage can be soaked if having a bit of protection.

Now let’s be honest in here, anything that isn’t a Warrior or a Mesmer is frowned at in PvE. The Warriors could use a nerf in the damage and a buff in durability/utility/mechanics based skills, not Thieves being buffed.

Zyaq.6945:

Travlane.5948:

warriors have always had the highest dps melee aoe in game….thieves HAD the highest single target. now thieves are tied for 2nd/3rd with warriors even tho warriors deal more dmg by atleast double. speed of their gs is faster than our 1hs? wierd. dmg is higher too and targets up to 5 in 130 range. when mug was nerfed thief went from 1st on single target dps to 3rd.

Thief sword and warrior GS have the same cast times of 1/2 second. The damage is higher because they can’t stealth and they only hit 3 targets, not five. So the extra 3k-4k (?) damage from the crit drops the thief two spots? Not saying warriors dont have high damage, just dislike when people throw inaccurate stats around in arguments.

sorry i thought whirl hits 5….. idk thief whirl that is stolen from warriors hits more than 3 im pretty sure…could be wrong but i assumed warriors skills (excluding auto attacfk obviously) would be the same. lets exclud crits. lets say a thief hits 1 target for 800 per attack and the warrior hits about 700 per attack… that means the thief would have to hit 2200 per hit just out out dmg a warriro in a zerg fight….and thats only 100….(yes i know granted its potential 3 per attack for warrior but still lets just say its 2….) still outweighs thief. ther has to be some advantage to such low hp/defnse/lack of blocks/invul than just medium to good dmg.

Zyaq.6945:

Travlane.5948:

warriors have always had the highest dps melee aoe in game….thieves HAD the highest single target. now thieves are tied for 2nd/3rd with warriors even tho warriors deal more dmg by atleast double. speed of their gs is faster than our 1hs? wierd. dmg is higher too and targets up to 5 in 130 range. when mug was nerfed thief went from 1st on single target dps to 3rd.

Thief sword and warrior GS have the same cast times of 1/2 second. The damage is higher because they can’t stealth and they only hit 3 targets, not five. So the extra 3k-4k (?) damage from the crit drops the thief two spots? Not saying warriors dont have high damage, just dislike when people throw inaccurate stats around in arguments.

Warrior gs has hundred blades and whirlwind, both increase dps. Thief sword has shadowstep and pistol whip. Neither increase dps, they are just utility abilities. If you’re complaining about inacurate information then at least post all the facts

randomfightfan.4091:

Zyaq.6945:

Travlane.5948:

warriors have always had the highest dps melee aoe in game….thieves HAD the highest single target. now thieves are tied for 2nd/3rd with warriors even tho warriors deal more dmg by atleast double. speed of their gs is faster than our 1hs? wierd. dmg is higher too and targets up to 5 in 130 range. when mug was nerfed thief went from 1st on single target dps to 3rd.

Thief sword and warrior GS have the same cast times of 1/2 second. The damage is higher because they can’t stealth and they only hit 3 targets, not five. So the extra 3k-4k (?) damage from the crit drops the thief two spots? Not saying warriors dont have high damage, just dislike when people throw inaccurate stats around in arguments.

Warrior gs has hundred blades and whirlwind, both increase dps. Thief sword has shadowstep and pistol whip. Neither increase dps, they are just utility abilities. If you’re complaining about inacurate information then at least post all the facts

yeah what he said. but also you cant compare just one weapon…. only dagger has a good auto attack….sword is kinda good too but its super slow and very readable/visible so its easy to dodge…almost pretty much between each auto lol….pistol auto is just a joke for dmg…and sb is too….so dagger is the most used…not only bc of BS but its auto attack. if you take out backstab….then take the warriors biggest direct attack 1 target …..the warrior will incredibly out dmg thieves …atleast until under 33%

Heartseeker and backstab are both good damaging abilities but they both have 1 fatal flaw, they are both situational. Hs does good damage… as long as the target is already bellow 25% hp. Backstab does good damage… as long as you’re positioned just right. Nothing is wrong with having the skills be situational, just the thief should be compensated a little more considering all the limitations put on the abilities. Imo the above 50% and below 25% hs should stay the same but the 50%-25% should be buffed slightly and backstab should be buffed by about 10%. Please don’t flip out about 10% on backstab idea though, the skill does 6-7k dmg. If that +700dmg every 4ish seconds is really such a big deal then you would be straight up po’d if you ever saw sigil of flame. That’s a 1300 damaging ability that comes free almost every 5s.

well said. …. but keep in mind the % of successful hits of these powerful attacks at 130 range. always comes with a % and a price.

Doggie.3184:

Meow.

“Thief
Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post1061889

a bunch of lies, pve wise:
1.traps suck big time
2.venoms have to small range for sharing
3.burst is meh
4.dps is far behind a warrior
5.mobility is NOT so very good without 15 in acrobatics
6.let’s say that the lowest hp/med armor combo compensates with stealth to stay alive, but the new “dont drop agro on stealth mechanic make things difficult”
7.almost NO boons, no team support except stealth res
8.blindness ineffective at bosses, also 1/2 duration of vulnerability&weakness
9.shared initiative system on all weapons

warrior:
1.banners 600 range: 2 super boons up for everyone in party !
2.invulnerability
3.top dps
4.highest hp/heavy armor
5.good condition remover (remove 1 condition on shout+ Shake It Off!=2 on 1 skill, Mending-remove 2 conditions then heal etc.)-contrary to “low condition removal” stated by a-net
6.good bursts
7.boons like 3 might stacks and fury for everyone in party
8.mobility via rush and other skills
9.switching weaponsets you get fresh skills

etc.
HAHAHA

owned….. :P yeah thief is rocked in pve. especially at bosses.

DanH.5879:

Doggie.3184:

Meow.

“Thief
Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post1061889

a bunch of lies, pve wise:
1.traps suck big time
2.venoms have to small range for sharing
3.burst is meh
4.dps is far behind a warrior
5.mobility is NOT so very good without 15 in acrobatics
6.let’s say that the lowest hp/med armor combo compensates with stealth to stay alive, but the new “dont drop agro on stealth mechanic make things difficult”
7.almost NO boons, no team support except stealth res
8.blindness ineffective at bosses, also 1/2 duration of vulnerability&weakness
9.shared initiative system on all weapons

warrior:
1.banners 600 range: 2 super boons up for everyone in party !
2.invulnerability
3.top dps
4.highest hp/heavy armor
5.good condition remover (remove 1 condition on shout+ Shake It Off!=2 on 1 skill, Mending-remove 2 conditions then heal etc.)-contrary to “low condition removal” stated by a-net
6.good bursts
7.boons like 3 might stacks and fury for everyone in party
8.mobility via rush and other skills
9.switching weaponsets you get fresh skills

etc.
HAHAHA

It’s not lies, just development failure.

Doggie.3184:

DanH.5879:

Doggie.3184:

Meow.

“Thief
Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post1061889

a bunch of lies, pve wise:
1.traps suck big time
2.venoms have to small range for sharing
3.burst is meh
4.dps is far behind a warrior
5.mobility is NOT so very good without 15 in acrobatics
6.let’s say that the lowest hp/med armor combo compensates with stealth to stay alive, but the new “dont drop agro on stealth mechanic make things difficult”
7.almost NO boons, no team support except stealth res
8.blindness ineffective at bosses, also 1/2 duration of vulnerability&weakness
9.shared initiative system on all weapons

warrior:
1.banners 600 range: 2 super boons up for everyone in party !
2.invulnerability
3.top dps
4.highest hp/heavy armor
5.good condition remover (remove 1 condition on shout+ Shake It Off!=2 on 1 skill, Mending-remove 2 conditions then heal etc.)-contrary to “low condition removal” stated by a-net
6.good bursts
7.boons like 3 might stacks and fury for everyone in party
8.mobility via rush and other skills
9.switching weaponsets you get fresh skills

etc.
HAHAHA

It’s not lies, just development failure.

the could fix the thief intiatived shared thru each weaponsets perhaps by giving 3-4 intiative per swap back….gives atleast 1 skill back :P i mean giving full intiative would be ideal but i could see a dummy going 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 and another 2 2 for good measure….but hard to ask for that with all the intiative return we get already….just sux we have to spec into defensive lines for them :/

Travlane.5948:

the could fix the thief intiatived shared thru each weaponsets perhaps by giving 3-4 intiative per swap back….gives atleast 1 skill back :P i mean giving full intiative would be ideal but i could see a dummy going 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 and another 2 2 for good measure….but hard to ask for that with all the intiative return we get already….just sux we have to spec into defensive lines for them :/

Grandmaster Quick Pockets Gain 3 initiative on weapon swap while in combat.
Adept Kleptomaniac Stealing gives you 3 initiative.
Grandmaster Hastened Replenishment You receive 4 initiative when using a heal skill.

We do already have a lot of good burst ini recovery but the problem is the more reliable ones are grandmaster traits If they were brought down to master or something it would really help to balance the whole issue. I always have points in trickery just b/c I LOVE the burst ini on steal. It really helps when you use it right.

i know thats what i was saying…would be better to not have it in traits and just be inherent mechanically by giving like 33% extra per weapon switch or something. cant increase the regen as that would be slightly OP but idk might be worth a try if its done only a lil. yeah i like 5 0 30 30 5 for poison and 3 intiative on steal…both really help when in a 1 v1 when u need to prevent healing and when u miss a crucial cnd.

randomfightfan.4091:

MrForz.1953:

randomfightfan.4091:

^
Didn’t hear a single word of them saying they wouldn’t be able to have the highest single target dps. They are supposed to have the highest mobility (sadly aren’t there yet) and highest burst (also don’t have). Doesn’t look like what is supposed to be, is.

Mobility I could almost understand, but for the rest: high =/= highest, and you have Doggie’s text strapped on your face this time.

Time to move on.

don’t understand a word of what you said but for higher burst, mesmers get their blured frenzy and 4 shatters off (self-shatter) near instantly. It’s hard to set up but it is a very possible burst combo. I’ve seen blured do 10k and each shatter of the 4 do 6k a piece. That’s a potential 34k burst. I’ve also seen warriors hit 18k kill shots. That is also vs full exotic lvl 80s. The highest I’ve ever seen a thief backstab someone (that wasn’t using frenzy) was 9k. Now that mug is nerfed we have a maximum of a 5k cnd and 9k backstab. 14k damage. How is that 14k spike higher than the warrior 1 hit 18k or the mesmer dream spike of 34k?

And for mobility, ele used to have better mobility but now it’s only very close. Warriors still do have slightly better mobility with gs and sword warhorn and if they use rush, then they beat us by a solid margin.

Please I beg you show me a link of a Mesmer combo doing 34k damage… I want to see this in a death breakdown… I have hit and been hit with mindwrack combos that maxed at around 15k when all the stars aligned (3 different skills diversion+mindwrack+blurred frenzy) this is with full zerker gear, proper traits, against other glass targets.

jportell.2197:

Please I beg you show me a link of a Mesmer combo doing 34k damage… I want to see this in a death breakdown… I have hit and been hit with mindwrack combos that maxed at around 15k when all the stars aligned (3 different skills diversion+mindwrack+blurred frenzy) this is with full zerker gear, proper traits, against other glass targets.

Not saying it’ll do 34k every time, that’s why I said it was the dream mesmer burst. Watch the vid and you’ll see 10k blurs and 6k shatters. It’s just like the 50k hundred blades. Def won’t happen every time but it is possible to achieve it.

I forgot to say I also wasn’t paying attention to might stacks during the vid so it might actually be higher than 34k but really that’s just stacking the odds and looking for the biggest numbers possible.

randomfightfan.4091:

jportell.2197:

Please I beg you show me a link of a Mesmer combo doing 34k damage… I want to see this in a death breakdown… I have hit and been hit with mindwrack combos that maxed at around 15k when all the stars aligned (3 different skills diversion+mindwrack+blurred frenzy) this is with full zerker gear, proper traits, against other glass targets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnM3spSyjEI

Not saying it’ll do 34k every time, that’s why I said it was the dream mesmer burst. Watch the vid and you’ll see 10k blurs and 6k shatters. It’s just like the 50k hundred blades. Def won’t happen every time but it is possible to achieve it.

You are showing me a video from when shattered strength gave 3stacks of might per illusion shattered (miss those days)… I know this because at 1:07 Osi did a mindwrack and after the last illusion shattered he had 9 stacks of might… Please show me evidence in the current game of mesmers hitting these insane numbers…. because in mesmers current state I am over 90% sure that it is impossible to hit 34k damage from the combo.

jportell.2197:

You are showing me a video from when shattered strength gave 3stacks of might per illusion shattered (miss those days)… I know this because at 1:07 Osi did a mindwrack and after the last illusion shattered he had 9 stacks of might… Please show me evidence in the current game of mesmers hitting these insane numbers…. because in mesmers current state I am over 90% sure that it is impossible to hit 34k damage from the combo.

You’re probably right about that but it still doesn’t change the fact that thief burst is sorely lacking when it’s supposed to be the best burst class. Even if mesmer can no longer hit that dream 34k they still blow the thief out of the water.

“but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game.”

very sad that we don’t even come close to the highest

bs is slightly forgiving….out of 360 degrees around a player…bs can be hit from the rear 180…..which is nice and fair i think…… i mean it only connects at less than 50% now….and thats with the forgiving ways……….. if u really wanna see forgiving ways…check out tactical strike…ive hit head on and still stunned before….well almost head on.

randomfightfan.4091:

jportell.2197:

You are showing me a video from when shattered strength gave 3stacks of might per illusion shattered (miss those days)… I know this because at 1:07 Osi did a mindwrack and after the last illusion shattered he had 9 stacks of might… Please show me evidence in the current game of mesmers hitting these insane numbers…. because in mesmers current state I am over 90% sure that it is impossible to hit 34k damage from the combo.

You’re probably right about that but it still doesn’t change the fact that thief burst is sorely lacking when it’s supposed to be the best burst class. Even if mesmer can no longer hit that dream 34k they still blow the thief out of the water.

“but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game.”

very sad that we don’t even come close to the highest

as a GC, i’ve been combo’ed by a thief for 6k mug, 6k cnd, 13.5k backstab.

thats enough total burst to oneshot any GC target, even warriors. thieves pull off this combo instantaneously with haste. warriors can not achieve the same burst, they need to cc their target first, often multiple times due to stun breaks/blinks.

theres no point talking about sustained dps in pvp or wvw. if you’re talking about pve, then who cares, go roll a warrior if you want to do pve.

wads.5730:

randomfightfan.4091:

jportell.2197:

You are showing me a video from when shattered strength gave 3stacks of might per illusion shattered (miss those days)… I know this because at 1:07 Osi did a mindwrack and after the last illusion shattered he had 9 stacks of might… Please show me evidence in the current game of mesmers hitting these insane numbers…. because in mesmers current state I am over 90% sure that it is impossible to hit 34k damage from the combo.

You’re probably right about that but it still doesn’t change the fact that thief burst is sorely lacking when it’s supposed to be the best burst class. Even if mesmer can no longer hit that dream 34k they still blow the thief out of the water.

“but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game.”

very sad that we don’t even come close to the highest

as a GC, i’ve been combo’ed by a thief for 6k mug, 6k cnd, 13.5k backstab.

thats enough total burst to oneshot any GC target, even warriors. thieves pull off this combo instantaneously with haste. warriors can not achieve the same burst, they need to cc their target first, often multiple times due to stun breaks/blinks.

theres no point talking about sustained dps in pvp or wvw. if you’re talking about pve, then who cares, go roll a warrior if you want to do pve.

you should use COULD have instead of CAN in your response :P since…you know….thieves CANT do that anymore lol….its past tense….now they just have a combo ….cnd to bs…..no more burst available. (burst requires more than a chain of attacks…..basically 3-4 skills that can be used without waiting for one to finish or a combo there of) and if ur running that 13k backstab build ur really not intelligent bc you are dead as soon as you do it. ….. granted there is anyone around to attack u once u tried

yeah…they are going to make steal like a str8 shadowstep without a target soon too….well maybe…they mentioned they might. thinks like that owuld be small but letus be the most mobile class like we are supposed to be….also boosting steal a lil more to get on the lvl of other classes F mechanics.

Warriors’ damage are not all about themselves : they bring FGJ / banners while thieves have Smoke Screen / Black Powder and stuff. Just because they have both high damage output does not mean you have to compare them or want thieves damage to be the same as warriors’.

its less of a comparison between the two ….it could be mesmers we compare….its just that our weak hp/defense/blocks/invulnerability/boons/stability/conditions dont pay off as the highest burst as we are “stated by anet” to have. thats all. dont think of it as warriors vs thieves…think as it “supposed burst king” vs “supposed to NOT be burst king(s)”…………… if that helps?

Travlane.5948:

its less of a comparison between the two ….it could be mesmers we compare….its just that our weak hp/defense/blocks/invulnerability/boons/stability/conditions dont pay off as the highest burst as we are “stated by anet” to have. thats all. dont think of it as warriors vs thieves…think as it “supposed burst king” vs “supposed to NOT be burst king(s)”…………… if that helps?

I believe burst has more sense in PvP considering the health pools. You can’t maintain a burst phase for 30 sec long or it’s just natural DPS or whatever it’s call.
So in terms of PvE, have to deal with it and keep bursting Cursed Shore Risens.