Guild Wars 2

Whoever designed thief in this game is really just bad, every time I play it, it kittenes me off, this might be the last time I spend money on this game. Always want to give this game a try, but it is just poorly designed, the pvp is really a mess.

A heavy armed warrior has better mobility, damage burst and defense, some other class can stealth too and can output better range damage burst.

On the other side, thief is light armed, damage burst is weak, the only thing good might be the mobility, but this is not a car racing game.

Looks like some one got rekt.

Thief is like marmite: great in the places it should be, beyond terrible in places it shouldn’t. If you don’t like the flavour, stop trying to put marmite in your corn flakes.

Just train to be better with thief, seriosly. Then you understand how stupid it sounds what you just said.

Reavan.8753:

Looks like some one got rekt.

Doesn’t change the fact profession is poorly designed and instead of fixing it everyone has been given stealth, which makes the thief completely useless in any other scenario than 1v1.

From my point of view thief was always a noobstomping class and had been constantly developed towards meeting that objective. It is useless in wvwvw (inb4. but flipping!), in spvp only good on skirmishes and no idea how about pve, but I don’t think they bring a lot of utility to the team.

I would say it’s class for lone wolves, solo players, people who don’t want to stick with group and prefer to follow their own path. On the other hand, in wvwvw for example even at roaming solo it is not the best option you got. Great for scouting though, but who wants to play the game to run around the map and reporting what’s going on?

But what to do to fix the class? There are some great suggestions in the other topic on this forum, no idea if anet reads it though.

Edit. Oh yeah, and thieves are “completely unpredictable class” xD

People who defend the Thief’s gameplay are largely people that have cultivated a high degree of skill with the 1v1 nature of it and who aren’t particularly analytical or critical of other game modes and haven’t main’d other classes.

I used to main a Thief, and now main a Rev, and can tell you without hesitation that the Revenant is far more generally effective at both staying alive and dealing out sustained DPS in virtually all of PvE. I agree with the OP – the Thief is a busted, poorly designed class whose kit is balanced around PvP and just straight-up doesn’t work well in PvE.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

On the other side, thief is light armed, damage burst is weak, the only thing good might be the mobility, but this is not a car racing game.

…haha, what?

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Thief is like marmite: great in the places it should be, beyond terrible in places it shouldn’t. If you don’t like the flavour, stop trying to put marmite in your corn flakes.

no, wait. Seriously can we go back to this please? Marmite is the most disgusting thing in the world. It does not matter what you put it on. Marmite is a foul death paste and should be burned from existence.

emkelly.2371:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Thief is like marmite: great in the places it should be, beyond terrible in places it shouldn’t. If you don’t like the flavour, stop trying to put marmite in your corn flakes.

no, wait. Seriously can we go back to this please? Marmite is the most disgusting thing in the world. It does not matter what you put it on. Marmite is a foul death paste and should be burned from existence.

Let me guess you eat Veggimite

vove.2768:

Reavan.8753:

Looks like some one got rekt.

Doesn’t change the fact profession is poorly designed and instead of fixing it everyone has been given stealth, which makes the thief completely useless in any other scenario than 1v1.

From my point of view thief was always a noobstomping class and had been constantly developed towards meeting that objective. It is useless in wvwvw (inb4. but flipping!), in spvp only good on skirmishes and no idea how about pve, but I don’t think they bring a lot of utility to the team.

I would say it’s class for lone wolves, solo players, people who don’t want to stick with group and prefer to follow their own path. On the other hand, in wvwvw for example even at roaming solo it is not the best option you got. Great for scouting though, but who wants to play the game to run around the map and reporting what’s going on?

But what to do to fix the class? There are some great suggestions in the other topic on this forum, no idea if anet reads it though.

Edit. Oh yeah, and thieves are “completely unpredictable class” xD

This is so incorrect,

In WvW i have a guild mate who always plays thief. The rest of us play something tanky so he can jump in and out of our roaming fights. We usually run 3-8 people not following the zerg in CD. We have been able to sneak towers and actually took the commander own zerg away from him since we were doing better. Thief has its spots in WvW.

Also thief was a main stay in EU and NA pre HOT. With players like toker, caed and sindrener. These dudes were winning 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2 which is why a thief has always been present pre HOT.

I dont know how you can blame a design when Anet took a good thing like core GW2 and made it spam and faster spam.

vove.2768:

It is useless in wvwvw (inb4. but flipping!)

kdaddy.5431:

We have been able to sneak towers (…) Thief has its spots in WvW.

I know, I already said that, why you quote if you haven’t read the post?

Anyways, I personally am disappointed with HoT thief-wise. I really hoped they will do something interesting with the class. I loved to play pistols in spvp (steamrolling with 2x quadruple pistols with my wife, funny times) and honestly hoped for a rifle and sniper like builds in HoT, kind of squishy backliner with high dps, but instead of that thief receives staff and they make snipers of warriors.

Now I play gs/rifle warrior as current thief meta is pretty boring, nevertheless I am still hoping one day I’ll get back to my thief. Of course this is just my opinion, I am sure many people enjoy that playstyle as you can still see quite many thieves running around, then it still is not as many as others professions.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

emkelly.2371:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Thief is like marmite: great in the places it should be, beyond terrible in places it shouldn’t. If you don’t like the flavour, stop trying to put marmite in your corn flakes.

no, wait. Seriously can we go back to this please? Marmite is the most disgusting thing in the world. It does not matter what you put it on. Marmite is a foul death paste and should be burned from existence.

Let me guess you eat Veggimite

No I eat Peanut Butter and Jelly like a good American!

I’d actually argue that the core thief, aside from condition cleanse access, is excellently-designed.

The problem is many of the other professions/mechanics, particularly elite specs, aren’t.

^ This. Exactly this.

vove.2768:

vove.2768:

It is useless in wvwvw (inb4. but flipping!)

kdaddy.5431:

We have been able to sneak towers (…) Thief has its spots in WvW.

I know, I already said that, why you quote if you haven’t read the post?

Anyways, I personally am disappointed with HoT thief-wise. I really hoped they will do something interesting with the class. I loved to play pistols in spvp (steamrolling with 2x quadruple pistols with my wife, funny times) and honestly hoped for a rifle and sniper like builds in HoT, kind of squishy backliner with high dps, but instead of that thief receives staff and they make snipers of warriors.

Now I play gs/rifle warrior as current thief meta is pretty boring, nevertheless I am still hoping one day I’ll get back to my thief. Of course this is just my opinion, I am sure many people enjoy that playstyle as you can still see quite many thieves running around, then it still is not as many as others professions.

I did and you started off with your comment being thieves are poorly designed.

The in your own comment you talk about not knowing PvE. Which i have many friends who mained thief in PvE, now in raids and other meta events. We named off spots in WvW and before HOT thief was mandatory for high level play.

When you start off a argument with “Doesn’t change the fact profession is poorly designed” then rattle on. its hard to understand what point you are trying to make especially since only thieves and rangers are using invisibility in PvP now.

With the nerf to gyros you are seeing less and less of engys and PU mesmer died when HOT came out.

So thief is in a good spot meta wise across the game. Its just spammy to play and watch.

this said said this is not a car racing games hahaha. That was good.
You gotta train man, keep playing. You’ll start seeing patterns everywhere, and dodge will be second nature.

Excelsior.

I am one of the lone wolves mentioned, so I do not care about “teams”, since I barely meet people worth talking to or playing with (I guess the Asuran attitude fits my real character pretty well). Either the dudes and dudettes I meet are dumb as bread or nerdy-elitist that I cringe all the time in close proximity of these people.

Also, PvP is something I would like try to, but the matchmaking is already not what I am looking for on paper (putting people together even though they are not in the same skill range, but queue times, so Put X and Z together, divide by two, done; have a good guy carry bobs like me and vice versa, no, thanks, we had this in League of Legends and dynamic queue. Well, I got lost there) and I really spend much time getting into the designs of the character – just like some sort of reverse-engineering the designers minds – and, I can’t help, but I friggin love this class!

Normally I am an archer (well, short bow does not count here) in video games but after being dragged into the game after watching an Engineer, I put my Scrapper into retirement after I tasted the sweet taste of this profession. It works so well together with my playstyle, my ingame race and the overall look’n’feel, so nope, thieves are not poorly designed.

Even though I think we are somewhat below-average, but that is mostly because we can not shine and lost a big junk of our identity. Random people stealthing around like there is no tomorrow makes me shake my head. . .

Warriors are not a big problem, actuallly no class is a problem for thief. Players that master a certain class are a big problem… i met a few dragonhunters that just humiliated me…and a ranger.

Also as thief you don’t really go 1 vs 1 too much, unless you are sure you can take that player down. You just stalk in the shadows and make a battle 2 vs 1

Akagami.9861:

Warriors are not a big problem, actuallly no class is a problem for thief. Players that master a certain class are a big problem… i met a few dragonhunters that just humiliated me…and a ranger.

Also as thief you don’t really go 1 vs 1 too much, unless you are sure you can take that player down. You just stalk in the shadows and make a battle 2 vs 1

so in other words a thief is so weak he has to fight 2 vs 1 or has to pick up a noob in a 1 vs 1 because against even skilled ppl the thief will always underpeform?
yeah nope no class should be that weak.

other classes can deal the same dmg as a thief (or even more) way easier and don’t have that much of a risk in order to do so.

sure there are some thiefs out there who can win a 1v6 but those are ppl with tons of exp under their belt you can’t take them as example …. everyone with 2+ years of exp can stomp 6 new players who don’t have that much exp in pvp/wvw.

thief is poorly designed compared to other classes. you always have to play your thief 2 times better then your enemy plays his class in order to have an equal chance in a 1v1 and that just isn’t right.
(and for those who’re crying “if you buff theif then those players will even be better” well yeah but imagine those players with better classes instead of a thief they would even be more efficient in a 1v1)

stealth already got a very hard nerf with all the revealt debuffs and bs having an icd and let’s not forget all those shields and invulnerability we have to deal with atm.

Nenshoukarasu.6598:

Akagami.9861:

Warriors are not a big problem, actuallly no class is a problem for thief. Players that master a certain class are a big problem… i met a few dragonhunters that just humiliated me…and a ranger.

Also as thief you don’t really go 1 vs 1 too much, unless you are sure you can take that player down. You just stalk in the shadows and make a battle 2 vs 1

so in other words a thief is so weak he has to fight 2 vs 1 or has to pick up a noob in a 1 vs 1 because against even skilled ppl the thief will always underpeform?
yeah nope no class should be that weak.

other classes can deal the same dmg as a thief (or even more) way easier and don’t have that much of a risk in order to do so.

sure there are some thiefs out there who can win a 1v6 but those are ppl with tons of exp under their belt you can’t take them as example …. everyone with 2+ years of exp can stomp 6 new players who don’t have that much exp in pvp/wvw.

thief is poorly designed compared to other classes. you always have to play your thief 2 times better then your enemy plays his class in order to have an equal chance in a 1v1 and that just isn’t right.
(and for those who’re crying “if you buff theif then those players will even be better” well yeah but imagine those players with better classes instead of a thief they would even be more efficient in a 1v1)

stealth already got a very hard nerf with all the revealt debuffs and bs having an icd and let’s not forget all those shields and invulnerability we have to deal with atm.

That’s why it’s called Thief and not… Warrior with Daggers. It’s a squishy class, high risk high reward kind of class.

True it’s hard playing a thief…but a thiefs role isn’t to 1 vs 1 all match long, it’s to cap and uncapp enemy points, and when there is a 1 vs 1 fight you jump in and help your teamate. You help downed members with stealth and in certain maps you do the extra stuff…take the artifacts, orbs etc… again high mobility.

Thief isn’t supposed to do what every class does, you can’t have a warriors hp and defense and a thies mobility and ability to jump in and out of combat easily.

I jumped into pvp yesterday for the first time in 1 year, and i lost 3 out of 10 matches.
The first match i had no idea what to do anymore, so i got killed all the time
after a few tweks to my build and rotation ideas i had a 5 wins streak against some decent teams.

I still don’t know how to counter every class, i met mesmers dragonhunters and rangers that wiped the floor with me…but there were others that had no idea what to do so i just stomped them easily while capping points.

It’s all learning to play the thief, learn what makes the class shine and what doesn’t.

No one is expecting a thief to 1 vs 1 all the time, just when you know when to win…if some guardian wipes the floor with you, next time you see him avoid him at all costs if you are alone. Wait for an opening, if you see a downed enemy you can easily stomp him thanks to stealth.

and i suck at being a thief…there are others wayyyy better than me. There are some videos on youtube that will blow your mind. Watch some of them and try to keep an open mind, and learn.

Cheers.

Akagami.9861:

Nenshoukarasu.6598:

Akagami.9861:

Warriors are not a big problem, actuallly no class is a problem for thief. Players that master a certain class are a big problem… i met a few dragonhunters that just humiliated me…and a ranger.

Also as thief you don’t really go 1 vs 1 too much, unless you are sure you can take that player down. You just stalk in the shadows and make a battle 2 vs 1

so in other words a thief is so weak he has to fight 2 vs 1 or has to pick up a noob in a 1 vs 1 because against even skilled ppl the thief will always underpeform?
yeah nope no class should be that weak.

other classes can deal the same dmg as a thief (or even more) way easier and don’t have that much of a risk in order to do so.

sure there are some thiefs out there who can win a 1v6 but those are ppl with tons of exp under their belt you can’t take them as example …. everyone with 2+ years of exp can stomp 6 new players who don’t have that much exp in pvp/wvw.

thief is poorly designed compared to other classes. you always have to play your thief 2 times better then your enemy plays his class in order to have an equal chance in a 1v1 and that just isn’t right.
(and for those who’re crying “if you buff theif then those players will even be better” well yeah but imagine those players with better classes instead of a thief they would even be more efficient in a 1v1)

stealth already got a very hard nerf with all the revealt debuffs and bs having an icd and let’s not forget all those shields and invulnerability we have to deal with atm.

That’s why it’s called Thief and not… Warrior with Daggers. It’s a squishy class, high risk high reward kind of class.

True it’s hard playing a thief…but a thiefs role isn’t to 1 vs 1 all match long, it’s to cap and uncapp enemy points, and when there is a 1 vs 1 fight you jump in and help your teamate. You help downed members with stealth and in certain maps you do the extra stuff…take the artifacts, orbs etc… again high mobility.

Thief isn’t supposed to do what every class does, you can’t have a warriors hp and defense and a thies mobility and ability to jump in and out of combat easily.

I jumped into pvp yesterday for the first time in 1 year, and i lost 3 out of 10 matches.
The first match i had no idea what to do anymore, so i got killed all the time
after a few tweks to my build and rotation ideas i had a 5 wins streak against some decent teams.

I still don’t know how to counter every class, i met mesmers dragonhunters and rangers that wiped the floor with me…but there were others that had no idea what to do so i just stomped them easily while capping points.

It’s all learning to play the thief, learn what makes the class shine and what doesn’t.

No one is expecting a thief to 1 vs 1 all the time, just when you know when to win…if some guardian wipes the floor with you, next time you see him avoid him at all costs if you are alone. Wait for an opening, if you see a downed enemy you can easily stomp him thanks to stealth.

and i suck at being a thief…there are others wayyyy better than me. There are some videos on youtube that will blow your mind. Watch some of them and try to keep an open mind, and learn.

Cheers.

a theif doesn’t need the defens of a warrior lol yes its squishy but the high risk high reward… sry i can’t see the high reward part of that

again i’m not saying thief needs the same hp as a warrior lol
everyone can win a 2v1 fight so thats not the point of beeing a thief
a thief isn’t the fastest class in the game u know… other classes also have +33% run speed and can actually fight

so basically you are just replying what i was saying… as a thief all you can do is run away or try to find ppl already on low health or else you don’t stand a chance in 1v1

i’ve seen those videos you speak of and all i can say is… you have to play your thief 2 times better then your enemy to even have an equal chance.
its easy to stomp noobs but guess what… every class can do that xD

no a thief should be a 1v1 class and not a “scout” that only can run for his life.
a thief has to fight 2 vs 1 or has to pick up a less skilled player or one with low health in a 1 vs 1 because against even skilled ppl the thief will always underpeform and lose…
and thats not what balance is.

actually yes the thief is the most mobile class in the game, besides the trait that gives you speed, you have shortbow and a utility skill that teleports you. Among all the classes that thief can reach a certain point fastest using all those. This is the main idea for a thief, cap and uncapp points. Turn the tide of battle in your teams favor. Let the tankier classes do the whole 1 vs 1 thing or 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3, while you take care of the points.

PvP is not a deathmatch….controling the points is important too.

And what you are complaining right now, every other player that i completely and utterly destroyed on the battlefield can complain too…only in reverse “OOO thief is OP, oooo so much burst damage…oooo stealth….ooo he can jump in and out of battle”.

Really it’s a matter of learning the class and knowing how to counter others while also knowing what is expected of you.

Thiefs are made to turn the tide of battles…that’s what i belive and that’s what i like…a good thief makes the difference between loosing and winning.

Sure a tankish dragonhunter can kill us and others…but just killing in 1 vs 1 doesn’t win you the game… strategy and wits do.

Is the thief as a class perfect? Hell no…i can’t even get into raids cause i don’t like other classes besides my thief…and sometimes squishy means 1 hit and you are dead. But it’s not boring, and it keeps you on your toes all the time.

Maybe you need to consider a re-roll if you don’t like thief that much. Find something that makes you happy…there are enough classes in the game. No reason you should be stuck with something you don’t like.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Whoever designed thief in this game is really just bad, every time I play it, it kittenes me off, this might be the last time I spend money on this game. Always want to give this game a try, but it is just poorly designed, the pvp is really a mess.

A heavy armed warrior has better mobility, damage burst and defense, some other class can stealth too and can output better range damage burst.

On the other side, thief is light armed, damage burst is weak, the only thing good might be the mobility, but this is not a car racing game.

Thief is one of the hardest classes in the game hands down. Once you clear a valley in that pile of salt to see your screen you can get started on practicing.

Thief is different in several aspects.

-First you don’t always just get to precast backstab into steal and one-shot. There are too many ways to mitigate damage that most decent players can avoid your burst. On the flip side, no class has the kill potential a thief has when your presence is unknown.

-Second you have to not only have to know your class mechanics, but you have to what your enemy does, as well as what they can do to lock you down. Each class has ways to not only stop you in your tracks, but also create moments of high vulnerability that you can easily punish.

-Lastly thief is not the class for walking up to a warrior (or any fighter class)and trying to brawl it toe to toe (staff DD may disagree however). Our class was designed on surprise and patience. Start with a burst, commit until you get them to react. If you can get their invuln down, disengage. Wait for invuln to clear and go back in to burst. Your mobility/evades is king at buying time for your next engage. If you cant out-burst someone, out-maneuver them. I can’t tell you how many times I could of lost a fight, but with shortbow to kite and using LOS around objects I was able to create favorable engages.

I do not claim to be the best thief, but I have had my fair share of fights. This is just my 2 cents.

thief indeed is full of terrible design as a squishy class that is meant to instakill the opponent without counterplay or otherwise get killed instantly

the meta d/p stealth-scrubbing only makes that issue much worse and the addition of HoT options (dodge spam and PI) didnt make it any better, just added some powercreep on thief to make up for powercreep on other classes

Lexander.4579:

thief indeed is full of terrible design as a squishy class that is meant to instakill the opponent without counterplay or otherwise get killed instantly

the meta d/p stealth-scrubbing only makes that issue much worse and the addition of HoT options (dodge spam and PI) didnt make it any better, just added some powercreep on thief to make up for powercreep on other classes

The insta-kill builds only do so when they devote their entire build to a single attack and lack any meaningful mid-fight potential, and quite frankly, in most cases they need to catch their opponent off-guard while not paying attention. Such builds usually aren’t even D/P, anyways. Mesmers, Warriors, and DH’s all bring equivalent or superior burst with objectively better mid-fight capacity.

The poor design stems mostly with Daredevil rather than any issues with core thief. Unlike most of the other specs and professions, the thief actually needs to make substantial build sacrifices to achieve what it’s trying to do.

Akagami.9861:

actually yes the thief is the most mobile class in the game, besides the trait that gives you speed, you have shortbow and a utility skill that teleports you. Among all the classes that thief can reach a certain point fastest using all those. This is the main idea for a thief, cap and uncapp points. Turn the tide of battle in your teams favor. Let the tankier classes do the whole 1 vs 1 thing or 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3, while you take care of the points.

PvP is not a deathmatch….controling the points is important too.

And what you are complaining right now, every other player that i completely and utterly destroyed on the battlefield can complain too…only in reverse “OOO thief is OP, oooo so much burst damage…oooo stealth….ooo he can jump in and out of battle”.

Really it’s a matter of learning the class and knowing how to counter others while also knowing what is expected of you.

Thiefs are made to turn the tide of battles…that’s what i belive and that’s what i like…a good thief makes the difference between loosing and winning.

Sure a tankish dragonhunter can kill us and others…but just killing in 1 vs 1 doesn’t win you the game… strategy and wits do.

Is the thief as a class perfect? Hell no…i can’t even get into raids cause i don’t like other classes besides my thief…and sometimes squishy means 1 hit and you are dead. But it’s not boring, and it keeps you on your toes all the time.

Maybe you need to consider a re-roll if you don’t like thief that much. Find something that makes you happy…there are enough classes in the game. No reason you should be stuck with something you don’t like.

hahaha don’t make me laugh x’D

nope thief isn’t a milkman who can only deliver points. a thief should be a close combat dd class (damage dealer) but the thief fails completely in that aspect.
so in pvp its purpose is to run and cap points while avoiding any battle
and in pve a thief is pretty much useless because there aren’t any points to cap lol

yeah sure a thief has the ability to travel with its short bow but guess what… it costs 5 initiantive (in case you can’t count thats 3 arrows max and that will leave you wihtout initiative to use any other kills but meh that doesn’t matter because you aren’t supposed to fight anyways xD) and the arrow’s range is 900 besides that even the smallest bumb on the road stops you from teleporting to your target.
and shadowstep? yeah good luck with that… 40s cd so it only let’s you travel a range of 1200 every 40s (and back but if i’m going with your mindset you don’t want to go back because your purpose as a thief is to cap)

well thats it for your so called “momentum advantage” for everything else you need a target in order to shadowstep to it.

considering a re-roll and useing a different class… well gues what that doesn’t change the problem a thief has…
the thief itself needs a buff… or even a redesign to be usefull again. your points are just blunt and only point out the problems a thief has… beeing only there for capping points shouldn’t be the purpose of a close combat dd class which the thief should be.

if i’m going with your mindset a thief doesn’t need any weapons besides the bow so why not simply take away all his other weapons? its current role (according to the majority of thiefs i met) is only to run and cap points in pvp for everything else its useless to play a thief.

well its true some thiefs out there are amazing but everyone can be amazing with 2+years of exp against others who haven’t played that much …
sad to see the thief so useless and nerfed…
thats not what balance and a thief should be .

Maybe partially it’s due to their bad design…

But it’s also partially due to dedicated tears and high levels of potassium over span of years. Refer to:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Nerf-Wish-List-1/page/2#post6415290

For evidence.

So from everything i said that’s what stuck with you? I didn’t say thief isn’t good for combat…it’s just not good at going toe to toe with a guardian or a ranger…or sometimes a good mesmer.

And yes the whole thing a thief has is it’s stealth, the bad design is mesmer also having stealth…makes no sense, should be a thief only.

I don’t know how many other games you played with a thief/assassin class, but being agile and stealthy is the whole point. Low defense means you gotta be careful when yo join a fight and when to abandon one.

What you want is a Highly mobile tank that can deliver the highest amount of damage in the shortest time posibile kind of thief.

Every class has it’s ups and downs….

If you complain about thief…what about necro? i haven’t met 1 necro yet that i could stomp.
And engi? rarely see one in pvp…and when i see one…well doesn’t matter that much unless he is teaming up with someone else and the fight becomes 2 vs 1 + all the kitten turrets…

Elementalist? sure there are some good ones here and there…but mostly they are good for warming up

Warriors that don’t use hammer….a joke….warriors that do use hammer…i prefer to avoid.

Guardians… i avoid mostly

Rangers…the trick with rangers is to get in close before they notice you…if they see you coming a mile away, you are gonna have a bad time.

other thieves…some are quite annoying…the ones with years of exp, the others…who gets the timing better.

This list is made from my perspective….a noob thief (i’ve been playing for quite a while…but i still consider myself a noob cause it’s a complicated class)

So as you can see you can take almost any class head on…and when i say head on i mean…like a good thief, take them by surprise cause you are no greatsword weilding warrior.

If you like to go guns blazing and beeing all “LEERROOYYY JENKINSSS” in a battle, don’t choose a thief…

like i said…the whole point of this class is to be….thiefy like, not to go through the arena like a tank not even noticing damage you take.

AGAIN, yes it’s not a perfect class….mainly cause everyone is complaining about the stealth and now there are so many way to counter stealth it’s not even funny anymore. Everytime there is a patch meant to equilibrate things … they make every class even worse.

Arenanet isn’t nerfing only the thief…every single class since the game launched…nerf this nerf that nerf this nerf that….in 2 years we are gonna trow sticks and rocks at each other cause will be more efective than any other build or skill xD.

But in the end, it’s a demanding class…maybe you should really just roll another character.

DeceiverX.8361:

Lexander.4579:

thief indeed is full of terrible design as a squishy class that is meant to instakill the opponent without counterplay or otherwise get killed instantly

the meta d/p stealth-scrubbing only makes that issue much worse and the addition of HoT options (dodge spam and PI) didnt make it any better, just added some powercreep on thief to make up for powercreep on other classes

The insta-kill builds only do so when they devote their entire build to a single attack and lack any meaningful mid-fight potential, and quite frankly, in most cases they need to catch their opponent off-guard while not paying attention. Such builds usually aren’t even D/P, anyways. Mesmers, Warriors, and DH’s all bring equivalent or superior burst with objectively better mid-fight capacity.

The poor design stems mostly with Daredevil rather than any issues with core thief. Unlike most of the other specs and professions, the thief actually needs to make substantial build sacrifices to achieve what it’s trying to do.

what you just described is basically d/p thief, which has nothing to it but spiking with backstabs and stealth-scrubbing both being garbage designs, after HoT thieves gained also p4 spam and bullcrap AA damage but neither of those serve towards mid-fight ability

and you can hate daredevil dodges all you want but its just an extra HoT survivability that every other class also gained, all the issues thief has are about 3 things: base stats, initiative mechanic and profession skills (steal and stolen skills)

Okie-donkie.. ehm… So, thief is really badly nerfed all the time against all other classes. (Thankfuly not this time). But it is class, as you can see, that is based on your skill. And it’s the hardest class to master from all classes from a whole game. Thief is my main, and I love it, even if it’s nerfed as it is.
I’m already tired of nerfing the class all the time, ANet doesn’t do anything about it, they just don’t care, they don’t read forums. I play this game from its launch, and thief was OP, rly, more then now. But it was gettin’ nerfs, all the time…
But after all that time I spend with thief, I came to conclusion – I could never main any other class, because the fun I have with the class is the best one I had in the whole game.
Theif has BIG BURST, so it’s not true, what you say. And as I said, it’s about skill, clearly and only. You can be as good as others, but you just need to give more effort to it, that’s it. (nothing offensive)

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Whoever designed thief in this game is really just bad, every time I play it, it kittenes me off, this might be the last time I spend money on this game. Always want to give this game a try, but it is just poorly designed, the pvp is really a mess.

A heavy armed warrior has better mobility, damage burst and defense, some other class can stealth too and can output better range damage burst.

On the other side, thief is light armed, damage burst is weak, the only thing good might be the mobility, but this is not a car racing game.

1.- Why 90% of the complaints are PVP oriented? This ain’t LoL, Anet should balance but you can’t say a class is badly designed based on ONE of the THREE game modes.
2.- ….IDK what to say when you talk about “low burst” lol

Lexander.4579:

DeceiverX.8361:

Lexander.4579:

thief indeed is full of terrible design as a squishy class that is meant to instakill the opponent without counterplay or otherwise get killed instantly

the meta d/p stealth-scrubbing only makes that issue much worse and the addition of HoT options (dodge spam and PI) didnt make it any better, just added some powercreep on thief to make up for powercreep on other classes

The insta-kill builds only do so when they devote their entire build to a single attack and lack any meaningful mid-fight potential, and quite frankly, in most cases they need to catch their opponent off-guard while not paying attention. Such builds usually aren’t even D/P, anyways. Mesmers, Warriors, and DH’s all bring equivalent or superior burst with objectively better mid-fight capacity.

The poor design stems mostly with Daredevil rather than any issues with core thief. Unlike most of the other specs and professions, the thief actually needs to make substantial build sacrifices to achieve what it’s trying to do.

what you just described is basically d/p thief, which has nothing to it but spiking with backstabs and stealth-scrubbing both being garbage designs, after HoT thieves gained also p4 spam and bullcrap AA damage but neither of those serve towards mid-fight ability

and you can hate daredevil dodges all you want but its just an extra HoT survivability that every other class also gained, all the issues thief has are about 3 things: base stats, initiative mechanic and profession skills (steal and stolen skills)

No D/P thief in this game is one-shotting anyone playing a reasonably good build without the opponent simply not paying attention, sorry. And any such build that can even come close isn’t to be considered even close to a reasonably good build, either. Anyone can build a profession to take advantage of getting the jump on someone not paying attention, either. My reaper can even deal almost 25k damage in a second. Rest assured, I absolutely know what I am talking about when it comes to the thief’s capacity to deal burst damage.

The Daredevil is poorly-designed because it fills in the gaps of only a few poorly-implemented/designed features of the profession. By far and large, the thief is excellently-designed because everything about it is fair. There is no build capable of doing it all, and the sacrifices made are huge for every build when compared to any given potential area of expertise achievable by the profession’s other builds.

There are some niche-exploit builds which are badly-implemented or exist and are strong for reasons beyond the thief, however the core profession is about as fair as it gets. Daredevil on the other hand is just needless, boring power creep that reduced available build diversity to keep the profession up to speed by letting the profesison abuse its core kit options and giving it some freebies.

The only thing poorly-designed about the thief is the ICD on stealth attacks. That’s it. The rest is entirely at the fault of other professions getting too much or not enough while lacking meaningful build options when dealing with either those blatantly superior options or lack thereof.

The thief isn’t overpowered or overly-strong because it’s fair, unlike most of the rest of the professions and builds currently running around in the game.

I am officially giving up this game, going back to Blizzard or Riot games. Bye.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

I am officially giving up this game, going back to Blizzard or Riot games. Bye.

Um…

Balance is kitten everywhere. And I doubt any game will be made perfectly balanced.

Riot and Blizzard both have F2P MOBAs (HotS and LoL)… Now when a new champ comes out, 90% of the time they’re broken AF. Why? Because they’re trying to get you to buy said champ, so you can own for however long before they nerf’em and release a new one.

If you say WoW… Now, I have heard rumors that they’re taking the gear out of the equation because back when I used to play it was gear > class > skill. Now it’s probably having similar issues as GW, and that’s IF they took gear out of the equation.

Overwatch? I play that as well. Anything not meta, you will get kitten on by your own team. They will tilt to the point where it’s a guaranteed a match lose (try playing bastion for a good number of games). Another fine example is Symmtra, which is getting reworked – but from everything I’ve seen, will still be bottom tier.

But one very advantageous thing for ones own ego in all those games are your own teammates – Which you can use as scapegoats for when you loose. Blaming everything on them and avoiding thinking it might be you. This will allow you to last in those games longer, before again realizing, there’s imbalances and potentially lack of your own skill.

And this might be on the extreme of things, but the only true way of creating a balanced game, where each hero/character is balanced with respect to all the others, is to give each character the same moves and reskin/redo the animations for them per character/hero – but then that will be very bland, don’t you think? But this will be perfectly balanced, since each hero will be doing the same X damage per second as every other. You will only be able to create so many moves before you start creating “OP” sequences of said moves, unintentionally.

:D Cheer up, and embrace the imbalance of things. Roll whatever you consider OP, so you could tip the imbalance in your favor.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

I am officially giving up this game, going back to Blizzard or Riot games. Bye.

obligatory “can I have your stuff” message

Zero Day.2594:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

I am officially giving up this game, going back to Blizzard or Riot games. Bye.

Um…

Balance is kitten everywhere. And I doubt any game will be made perfectly balanced.

Riot and Blizzard both have F2P MOBAs (HotS and LoL)… Now when a new champ comes out, 90% of the time they’re broken AF. Why? Because they’re trying to get you to buy said champ, so you can own for however long before they nerf’em and release a new one.

If you say WoW… Now, I have heard rumors that they’re taking the gear out of the equation because back when I used to play it was gear > class > skill. Now it’s probably having similar issues as GW, and that’s IF they took gear out of the equation.

Overwatch? I play that as well. Anything not meta, you will get kitten on by your own team. They will tilt to the point where it’s a guaranteed a match lose (try playing bastion for a good number of games). Another fine example is Symmtra, which is getting reworked – but from everything I’ve seen, will still be bottom tier.

But one very advantageous thing for ones own ego in all those games are your own teammates – Which you can use as scapegoats for when you loose. Blaming everything on them and avoiding thinking it might be you. This will allow you to last in those games longer, before again realizing, there’s imbalances and potentially lack of your own skill.

---

And this might be on the extreme of things, but the only true way of creating a balanced game, where each hero/character is balanced with respect to all the others, is to give each character the same moves and reskin/redo the animations for them per character/hero – but then that will be very bland, don’t you think? But this will be perfectly balanced, since each hero will be doing the same X damage per second as every other. You will only be able to create so many moves before you start creating “OP” sequences of said moves, unintentionally.

---

:D Cheer up, and embrace the imbalance of things. Roll whatever you consider OP, so you could tip the imbalance in your favor.

I think I know how to make a balanced game. Make a game with like 20 different classes right? so there are a bunch of them for everyone… YOU GET A CLASS AND YOU GET ONE AND YOU GET ONE.

And name them differently… Warrior, Thief, Ninja, Pirate, Jesus, God, Trump….anything you want as long as the names indicate clearly how different the classes are.

Now give all those classes the same 1 skill, something like “Hit” or “Bash” or “Kick” and a stick, that’s all.

No armor, no special skills, no trinkets…whoever hits the other one most times wins.

And as you can see this is 100% balanced.

PS: Copyright for this game pending…so don’t go stealin’ ma’ game.

Akagami.9861:

Zero Day.2594:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

I am officially giving up this game, going back to Blizzard or Riot games. Bye.

Um…

Balance is kitten everywhere. And I doubt any game will be made perfectly balanced.

Riot and Blizzard both have F2P MOBAs (HotS and LoL)… Now when a new champ comes out, 90% of the time they’re broken AF. Why? Because they’re trying to get you to buy said champ, so you can own for however long before they nerf’em and release a new one.

If you say WoW… Now, I have heard rumors that they’re taking the gear out of the equation because back when I used to play it was gear > class > skill. Now it’s probably having similar issues as GW, and that’s IF they took gear out of the equation.

Overwatch? I play that as well. Anything not meta, you will get kitten on by your own team. They will tilt to the point where it’s a guaranteed a match lose (try playing bastion for a good number of games). Another fine example is Symmtra, which is getting reworked – but from everything I’ve seen, will still be bottom tier.

But one very advantageous thing for ones own ego in all those games are your own teammates – Which you can use as scapegoats for when you loose. Blaming everything on them and avoiding thinking it might be you. This will allow you to last in those games longer, before again realizing, there’s imbalances and potentially lack of your own skill.

---

And this might be on the extreme of things, but the only true way of creating a balanced game, where each hero/character is balanced with respect to all the others, is to give each character the same moves and reskin/redo the animations for them per character/hero – but then that will be very bland, don’t you think? But this will be perfectly balanced, since each hero will be doing the same X damage per second as every other. You will only be able to create so many moves before you start creating “OP” sequences of said moves, unintentionally.

---

:D Cheer up, and embrace the imbalance of things. Roll whatever you consider OP, so you could tip the imbalance in your favor.

I think I know how to make a balanced game. Make a game with like 20 different classes right? so there are a bunch of them for everyone… YOU GET A CLASS AND YOU GET ONE AND YOU GET ONE.

And name them differently… Warrior, Thief, Ninja, Pirate, Jesus, God, Trump….anything you want as long as the names indicate clearly how different the classes are.

Now give all those classes the same 1 skill, something like “Hit” or “Bash” or “Kick” and a stick, that’s all.

No armor, no special skills, no trinkets…whoever hits the other one most times wins.

And as you can see this is 100% balanced.

PS: Copyright for this game pending…so don’t go stealin’ ma’ game.

Anet beat you too this…….it’s called Dragon Ball

DeceiverX.8361:

No D/P thief in this game is one-shotting anyone playing a reasonably good build without the opponent simply not paying attention, sorry. And any such build that can even come close isn’t to be considered even close to a reasonably good build, either. Anyone can build a profession to take advantage of getting the jump on someone not paying attention, either. My reaper can even deal almost 25k damage in a second. Rest assured, I absolutely know what I am talking about when it comes to the thief’s capacity to deal burst damage.

The Daredevil is poorly-designed because it fills in the gaps of only a few poorly-implemented/designed features of the profession. By far and large, the thief is excellently-designed because everything about it is fair. There is no build capable of doing it all, and the sacrifices made are huge for every build when compared to any given potential area of expertise achievable by the profession’s other builds.

There are some niche-exploit builds which are badly-implemented or exist and are strong for reasons beyond the thief, however the core profession is about as fair as it gets. Daredevil on the other hand is just needless, boring power creep that reduced available build diversity to keep the profession up to speed by letting the profesison abuse its core kit options and giving it some freebies.

The only thing poorly-designed about the thief is the ICD on stealth attacks. That’s it. The rest is entirely at the fault of other professions getting too much or not enough while lacking meaningful build options when dealing with either those blatantly superior options or lack thereof.

The thief isn’t overpowered or overly-strong because it’s fair, unlike most of the rest of the professions and builds currently running around in the game.

i didnt say that d/p thief is one-shotting anything, at least not anymore now that everyone has at least marauders or more often than not a mix of toughness/vitality on their gear

you keep mentioning my phrase about one-shotting taking it out of context, thats not nice and i mentioned it as a part of thief design, not the d/p meta if you are able of course to separate those 2 things

and yes thats what was kept in mind when thief was designed: we are not meant to stay in prolonged combat because we are limited by our resource and innately we are squishy without any means to survive in a direct fight so we either kill quickly or get killed quickly with some options to escape or avoid the fight

initiative mechanic was designed to allow thief to quickly release a huge burst of damage before enemies can render a response but that playstyle was nerfed in the first months of GW2 and on top of that it became completely unplayable once people realized they can use other stats than full zerk

however d/p meta is exactly that niche-exploit build you are talking which unsurprisingly became universal because it gives thieves the ability to infinitely apply combat pressure – something what thieves were never meant to do

instead of utilizing the initiative to do damage before HoT it was simply used for stealth-scrubbing and backstab spiking until you exhaust the opponent enough to land a kill, now there is also highly skilled P4 spam that is also unhealthy simply because no matter what decision the opponent takes they are punished for that by interrupt and 3-4k damage to the face

so as you can see, thats how thief design worked out in the end: having a resource instead of cooldowns led to a meta thief build that relies entirely on preventing any sort of response from the opponent, be it stealth-scrubbing or P4 spam

Lexander.4579:

DeceiverX.8361:

No D/P thief in this game is one-shotting anyone playing a reasonably good build without the opponent simply not paying attention, sorry. And any such build that can even come close isn’t to be considered even close to a reasonably good build, either. Anyone can build a profession to take advantage of getting the jump on someone not paying attention, either. My reaper can even deal almost 25k damage in a second. Rest assured, I absolutely know what I am talking about when it comes to the thief’s capacity to deal burst damage.

The Daredevil is poorly-designed because it fills in the gaps of only a few poorly-implemented/designed features of the profession. By far and large, the thief is excellently-designed because everything about it is fair. There is no build capable of doing it all, and the sacrifices made are huge for every build when compared to any given potential area of expertise achievable by the profession’s other builds.

There are some niche-exploit builds which are badly-implemented or exist and are strong for reasons beyond the thief, however the core profession is about as fair as it gets. Daredevil on the other hand is just needless, boring power creep that reduced available build diversity to keep the profession up to speed by letting the profesison abuse its core kit options and giving it some freebies.

The only thing poorly-designed about the thief is the ICD on stealth attacks. That’s it. The rest is entirely at the fault of other professions getting too much or not enough while lacking meaningful build options when dealing with either those blatantly superior options or lack thereof.

The thief isn’t overpowered or overly-strong because it’s fair, unlike most of the rest of the professions and builds currently running around in the game.

i didnt say that d/p thief is one-shotting anything, at least not anymore now that everyone has at least marauders or more often than not a mix of toughness/vitality on their gear

you keep mentioning my phrase about one-shotting taking it out of context, thats not nice and i mentioned it as a part of thief design, not the d/p meta if you are able of course to separate those 2 things

and yes thats what was kept in mind when thief was designed: we are not meant to stay in prolonged combat because we are limited by our resource and innately we are squishy without any means to survive in a direct fight so we either kill quickly or get killed quickly with some options to escape or avoid the fight

initiative mechanic was designed to allow thief to quickly release a huge burst of damage before enemies can render a response but that playstyle was nerfed in the first months of GW2 and on top of that it became completely unplayable once people realized they can use other stats than full zerk

however d/p meta is exactly that niche-exploit build you are talking which unsurprisingly became universal because it gives thieves the ability to infinitely apply combat pressure – something what thieves were never meant to do

instead of utilizing the initiative to do damage before HoT it was simply used for stealth-scrubbing and backstab spiking until you exhaust the opponent enough to land a kill, now there is also highly skilled P4 spam that is also unhealthy simply because no matter what decision the opponent takes they are punished for that by interrupt and 3-4k damage to the face

so as you can see, thats how thief design worked out in the end: having a resource instead of cooldowns led to a meta thief build that relies entirely on preventing any sort of response from the opponent, be it stealth-scrubbing or P4 spam

Only problem with this is all classes(bar Reaper) can infinitely pressure since they have defenses that allow them to wait out their CDs and reset the fight as well, and most classes have answers to Thieves, evades are blocked by Wards; Stealth is Countered by AoEs,Channeled Attacks, Reveals; Interrupt Spam is countered by Massive amounts of Stability/Passive Stun breaks/Cc Reflects; Thief Burst damage countered by Passive Invulns/Blocks/Heals.

Thieves aren’t a godly immortal class as you make them out to be, they have big flaws and weaknesses in each build, D/P just has the fewest flaws and has better tools than the other builds.

When the game came out thieves were very well designed. Its all the changes that have come along since that have removed their abilities slowly over time. Unlike warrior who was nerffed constantly for several patches in a row with thief it has been a very slow proccess of removing their core functionality. this makes it harder to fix the problems because restoring thwe thief functionality would require a massive change to what the class currently is.

Things that need fixed

• Bring back stealth, either by removing the revealed state or by increasing stealth times or ways to go into stealth. Reasoning: more and more classes are getting revealing abilities to the point where thieves cannot rely on stealth as much. But they still need to rely on stealth.
• Remove the Cooldown on stealth attacks. Reasoning: the Cooldown actually goes against the concept of initiative, and forces a thief to land EVERY SA in order to be effective. One missed SA ruins your day, and with the lack of stealth effectiveness this just hurts us more. It has been said before but there is no good reason for this nerf.

• Traits need to be moved to their correct Trait line. In my Thief redone post i outlined what needed to be done to fix the thief. The way I set it up actually ruins the Ginger Bread man (Trickery, Acrobatics, Daredevil) infinite dodge build, but it Massively improves the Condi Burst DD build (Trickery, Deadly Arts, Daredevil) build while still keeping it balanced. In that build (linked bellow) you either can choose to go full condi burst, For Damage Burst, or Full Evasion Sustain (which was tweaked to allow the thief to become a support build. Reasoning : As it stands three trait lines are so mandatory that you cannot take advantage of three other trait lines effectively. Thief redone attempts to fix this by giving each roll their own trait line. So every trait line has their place and each trait line is useful

Thief Redone
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10VLmRZU45W6aGotovBVhIcv2HYOGpkRDAz6g6ej9kFs/edit

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Only problem with this is all classes(bar Reaper) can infinitely pressure since they have defenses that allow them to wait out their CDs and reset the fight as well, and most classes have answers to Thieves, evades are blocked by Wards; Stealth is Countered by AoEs,Channeled Attacks, Reveals; Interrupt Spam is countered by Massive amounts of Stability/Passive Stun breaks/Cc Reflects; Thief Burst damage countered by Passive Invulns/Blocks/Heals.

Thieves aren’t a godly immortal class as you make them out to be, they have big flaws and weaknesses in each build, D/P just has the fewest flaws and has better tools than the other builds.

im not describing thief in the light of strengths of other classes, especially in the light of power creep introduced by HoT specs and post-HoT buffs to core specs/utilities

im describing thief’s stand alone design and in no way i have implied that thief is a godly immortal class as you try to mock me, if anything i actually mentioned the many flaws of thief that forced players to adjust to the uninteractive and unfun d/p playstyle

if thief wasnt a poorly designed profession we’d never have thief meta being stuck on its current d/p iteration that is only viable because it severely limits thief’s opponents options

if thief had real combat strengths there would be more fun and interactive options to play thief closest to such options currently are staff and s/d but even those arent anywhere close in their power level to other classes mostly because of the archaic baseline thief weaknesses that include low base stats, weak profession skill and initiative mechanic

emkelly.2371:

The way I set it up actually ruins the Ginger Bread man (Trickery, Acrobatics, Daredevil) infinite dodge build, but it Massively improves the Condi Burst DD build (Trickery, Deadly Arts, Daredevil) build while still keeping it balanced.
Thief Redone
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10VLmRZU45W6aGotovBVhIcv2HYOGpkRDAz6g6ej9kFs/edit

I looked through your redone thief but couldn’t find where it ruins the Acro/trick/DD build if there’s even a standard build in there, everyone here seems to have a different loadout, it almost seems like my build would be stronger with your changes. Whatever I’m missing, I would be pretty offended if my (ginger bread man? not calling it that) build were given gimmicky or compartmental changes in favor any condition build.

It’s because Thief was designed in the Mist instead of Tyria and their core design revolved around PvP with many PvP only skills that are completely useless in PvE. Because of that they were much stronger in PvP then other classes. It was powerful in PvP because it was the only class solely developed for PvP; which caused it to get nerfed over and over. They have a lot of broken mechanics afterwards because much of the time instead of being fully healed from nerfbat injuries they just end up going back into battle covered in bandaids that weigh it down.

kash.9213:

emkelly.2371:

The way I set it up actually ruins the Ginger Bread man (Trickery, Acrobatics, Daredevil) infinite dodge build, but it Massively improves the Condi Burst DD build (Trickery, Deadly Arts, Daredevil) build while still keeping it balanced.
Thief Redone
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10VLmRZU45W6aGotovBVhIcv2HYOGpkRDAz6g6ej9kFs/edit

I looked through your redone thief but couldn’t find where it ruins the Acro/trick/DD build if there’s even a standard build in there, everyone here seems to have a different loadout, it almost seems like my build would be stronger with your changes. Whatever I’m missing, I would be pretty offended if my (ginger bread man? not calling it that) build were given gimmicky or compartmental changes in favor any condition build.

It does not actually SAY it nerfs it. What it does is place all of the condition Traits into the Deadly arts line. This means that you can’t take Trickery, Acrobatic, Daredevil and constantly spam Bleeding, Torment, Confusion and Cripple through Caltrop+Lotus. You can still do the dodge spam, but the Gingerbread build would be pure sustain+support.

Also, yes it’s Gingerbread Man. “Run, run, as fast as you can, you can’t catch me, I’m the Gingerbread Man!”

Also, Also, The following builds are two flavors of Condition Builds.

Trickery, Deadly Arts, Daredevil

• Burst Condition Damage.
• Most use at least one Venom if not two or three.

Trickery, Shadow Arts, Deadly Arts

• Burst damage
• Focus on Remaining in stealth while harassing your foe with traps

Trickery, Acrobatics, Daredevil

• Condition pressure.
• Constantly applies bleeding, torment, cripple, And confusion while abusing evasion frames as much as possible. The build has much less burst damage, but once you get it going it stacks on massive bleeds.

Lexander.4579:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Only problem with this is all classes(bar Reaper) can infinitely pressure since they have defenses that allow them to wait out their CDs and reset the fight as well, and most classes have answers to Thieves, evades are blocked by Wards; Stealth is Countered by AoEs,Channeled Attacks, Reveals; Interrupt Spam is countered by Massive amounts of Stability/Passive Stun breaks/Cc Reflects; Thief Burst damage countered by Passive Invulns/Blocks/Heals.

Thieves aren’t a godly immortal class as you make them out to be, they have big flaws and weaknesses in each build, D/P just has the fewest flaws and has better tools than the other builds.

im not describing thief in the light of strengths of other classes, especially in the light of power creep introduced by HoT specs and post-HoT buffs to core specs/utilities

im describing thief’s stand alone design and in no way i have implied that thief is a godly immortal class as you try to mock me, if anything i actually mentioned the many flaws of thief that forced players to adjust to the uninteractive and unfun d/p playstyle

if thief wasnt a poorly designed profession we’d never have thief meta being stuck on its current d/p iteration that is only viable because it severely limits thief’s opponents options

if thief had real combat strengths there would be more fun and interactive options to play thief closest to such options currently are staff and s/d but even those arent anywhere close in their power level to other classes mostly because of the archaic baseline thief weaknesses that include low base stats, weak profession skill and initiative mechanic

And I disagree with this assertion due to the fact that all existences of the thief’s meta builds have effectively been in response to what the rest of the game is playing, and the profession’s usability has pretty much solely depended on the other professions’ balance state/the competitive meta.

Many components of the profession are well-designed. The problem largely consists of issues with the rest of the game that punish the profession more than not due to its good design.

@Emkelly, thieves were NOT well-designed or well-implemented at launch. Not at all. We came really close with some aspects pre-HoT, but a lot of that has been invalidated with decisions moving away from said good design or just the nature of elite specs in general invalidating most of the core game and consequently our well-designed core kit that currently stays afloat due to the power creep provided by the poorly-designed Daredevil.

thief as yeast extract is the best analogy i’ve heard so far, excepting the fact yeast extract has nutritional content

you claim thief is useless in conquest? That’s obviously why a team with a thief won tournament of legends. Just as example

torben.1532:

you claim thief is useless in conquest? That’s obviously why a team with a thief won tournament of legends. Just as example

Nobody actually tried in the ToL, though, even the team that won admitted that everyone from all teams were taking it as a joke.

*daredevil is poorly designed.
Thief is one of the best classes in the game