Guild Wars 2

sorry for double posting there and now again.. but that statement is ridiculous:)

Daecollo.9578:

Looks like your group is pulling you, because there is no way your surviving melee without some kind of group buff helping you.

In PvE, I solo almost everything with my thief. I don’t even need a group for most events. Thieves have some of the best AoE CC skills in this game as well as the ability to escape situations that would kill many others. If you are trying to stand toe-to-toe with the baddies, it’s no wonder you are having a bad time.

Cluster Bomb is Slow, the slowest AOE in the game…
I don’t think so. Elementalist has some slow AoEs. Regardless, in PvE you can just aim and time it so it hits…..and guess what? If you miss, you can do it again. Not to mention you can just explode it in the air and apply up to 4 stacks of bleed with a low-initiative skill while kiting your enemy. Pro-tip: You can shoot backwards with this skill.

Shadow Refuge is on a LOOONG cooldown…
If you need to use it more often than this on a regular basis, you have bigger problems. This skill is fantastic. If it had less of a cooldown, it would be waaaaaay too good.

Scorpion Wire Is ignored by bosses.
Why use Scorpion Wire in PvE? That’s generally one of the last skills I’d choose to have on my bar in PvE.

Basilisk Venom lasts 1 second.
…and works on everything! There’s a trait that speads venoms to your team If you want to spread it around. Not that I’d use this in PvE. A 1 second stun in PvE is not really worth it….in PvP, mind you, it’s fantastic. For PvE, you should be using Thieves Guild or Whirling Dagger Doom….I prefer Thieves Guild. It does pretty decent damage and I can pop an invis to de-aggro myself very easily.

Pistol offhand spammable smokecloud is cool, until you play a 80 warrior and realize 100b kills them, who cares about a stupid smokecloud if they are all dead?
If you can insta-kill level 80 mobs with 100b, I’d like to see how. And, again, if you want to play a warrior type character, PLAY A WARRIOR! Personally, I prefer to be a more subtle death ;-)

I play an 80 warrior, thief, my first toon was a thief, and then I realized how useless they were in pve and rerolled to warrior.
Yeah, you obviously just didn’t understand how a thief works in PvE. They are strong. I’m not just saying this to disagree, mind you. I mean it. PvE thief is strong. You hit everything, apply conditions to everything, reap the exp and loot from everything, and do damage to everything around you if you play it right. Thief may not cut through targets like a hot knife through butter, but it will certainly bleed groups of them to death with 1000 cuts. I’d say you should give it another chance but I really don’t think you should. It sounds to me like you should just play another class and be happy with that. Just do me a favor and don’t come back later complaining about thieves being OP :-P

edit:
Warriors AUTOATTACK does more damage then CB.
Warrior’s auto is a very different skill. You can CB your entire initiative away without being hit if you play it right. You really can’t compare melee skills to ranged ones. They are meant to be nothing alike.

People have this idea that Thieves suck in PvE because they don’t have many utilities that interact whit them direcly.Well thats just ignorant.

Daecollo.9578:

My warriors hundred blades hits for 18000 damage.

I’m glad you like doing that to mobs who are immune to those effects.

Stop linking prenerf videos where all the thief does is press 2, the thief has suffered about 4-5 damage nerfs since then.

Wrong;

A large portion (read, the majority) of what you fight in dungeons are not champions, and are fully susceptible to the aforementioned abilities.

Wrong #2;

Champions are not immune to those abilities. Tactical strike not only removes one stack of defiant, but it also still interrupts – unless you think that interrupts aren’t worth anything, in which case we’re not playing the same game. Not to mention blind is only 10% effective.

Would you rather a champion hit you 100% of the time (if he manages to land a hit from dodges etc) or would you rather the champion hit you 90% of the time? It’s not a difficult question to answer.

And, as for your warrior hitting for 18k; that’s great and all, but 1), I would imagine that this is with full berserkers gear and if not, I would request pictures for proof and 2) Don’t use the high damage of the warrior as a talking point as to why the thief sucks. Obviously as many other users have posted, we’re perfectly happy with the class and see few to no issues with balance and what it brings to the table.

If you think warrior damage is too high compared to thief damage, why wouldn’t you complain that warrior is overpowered instead of, “waaaah, thief suks aside from burst”.

Warrior’s auto-attack doesn’t cover a massive area like shotgun clusterbomb.

It also doesn’t come with the most usable blast finisher in the game. AoE 18 stacks of might from a fire combo field, and extremely long weakness with a poison field is pretty dang useful.

My Warrior is in full Knights, and has 15 points in toughness for higher regeneration, and the trait that gets you another 200 toughness when impaired, which happens a lot.

Warriors hit like trucks with the right traits, but mine is a tank as well as a DPSer.

if I was in Full berserkers, I would probably be hitting more then 18k.

And your being ignorant yourself, if i’m doing more damage then the fight naturally does not last as long.

The shorter the fight is, the better everything goes because of how CDs work.

Would you rather have a fight that you ignore 10% of the damage (blinds.) that lasts 10 minutes…or…

Would you rather have a fight that you ignore 0% of the damage, and lasts 5 minutes?

I think you can awnser this one for me.

Mixchimmer.7230:

What? Really…?

Sword/Dagger is actually really good sustained DPS and support. I’m not speced full berserkers and the third attack in the chain regularly crits for 3K+, and Cloak and Dagger can crit for 4K+.

Not to mention, because of traits,
>Every 4 seconds (because of revealed) I stealth and apply 3 stacks of weakness(Cloak and Dagger)
*>Every time I stealth I 2 second daze (tactical strike) *
>Every time I stealth I get 2 stacks of might (Hidden Assasin)
>Every time I stealth, I blind every foe near me (cloaked in shadow)
>Every time I stealth I regain 2 of the initiative spent to cast Cloak and Dagger (Infusion of Shadow) — this trait allows this combo to be almost endlessly spammed.
-see last nerf

Tell any experienced dungeon go-er that you can not only blind ALL MOBS around you every 4 seconds, but dish out a 2 second daze every 4 seconds – trust me, they’ll consider it AMAZING support. I’ve gotten more compliments on that build in dungeons than I can count.

I think the problem here may be that OP isn’t thinking of support in the traditional sense, but the way I see it, thief is probably one of the best professions at combat control and disabling.

please do tell me where is the 2 second daze skill, i want it too !
also for the rest of the skills, are you sure you play the same game as us ???

DanH.5879:

Mixchimmer.7230:

What? Really…?

Sword/Dagger is actually really good sustained DPS and support. I’m not speced full berserkers and the third attack in the chain regularly crits for 3K+, and Cloak and Dagger can crit for 4K+.

Not to mention, because of traits,
>Every 4 seconds (because of revealed) I stealth and apply 3 stacks of weakness(Cloak and Dagger)
*>Every time I stealth I 2 second daze (tactical strike) *
>Every time I stealth I get 2 stacks of might (Hidden Assasin)
>Every time I stealth, I blind every foe near me (cloaked in shadow)
>Every time I stealth I regain 2 of the initiative spent to cast Cloak and Dagger (Infusion of Shadow) — this trait allows this combo to be almost endlessly spammed.
-see last nerf

Tell any experienced dungeon go-er that you can not only blind ALL MOBS around you every 4 seconds, but dish out a 2 second daze every 4 seconds – trust me, they’ll consider it AMAZING support. I’ve gotten more compliments on that build in dungeons than I can count.

I think the problem here may be that OP isn’t thinking of support in the traditional sense, but the way I see it, thief is probably one of the best professions at combat control and disabling.

please do tell me where is the 2 second daze skill, i want it too !
also for the rest of the skills, are you sure you play the same game as us ???

Well tactical strike and cloak and dagger are the only skills in the build, the rest of the benefits for stealthing are coming from traits

Your damage comes from traits too.That argument is so silly.And TS and CaD are not the only beneficial skills.Flanking strikes is amazing .Might not be good for PvP but in PvE you wont have problems whit it.Nice evasion good damage .What more would you want.

Daecollo.9578:

My Warrior is in full Knights, and has 15 points in toughness for higher regeneration, and the trait that gets you another 200 toughness when impaired, which happens a lot.

Warriors hit like trucks with the right traits, but mine is a tank as well as a DPSer.

if I was in Full berserkers, I would probably be hitting more then 18k.

And your being ignorant yourself, if i’m doing more damage then the fight naturally does not last as long.

The shorter the fight is, the better everything goes because of how CDs work.

Would you rather have a fight that you ignore 10% of the damage (blinds.) that lasts 10 minutes…or…

Would you rather have a fight that you ignore 0% of the damage, and lasts 5 minutes?

I think you can awnser this one for me.

Following you’re logic, everyone in dungeons would be full berserkers specced. This is not the case, and if it were, I would imagine you’d encounter some issues. Sure I’d like the fight to end sooner rather than later, but none of that will matter if you keep dying because there’s no support or heals or what have you in your group.

You were arguing that the thief brings nothing to the table but burst damage, so we demonstrated with several build examples that this is not the case, and now you’re arguing that damage is really the only thing that matters anyways…? This doesn’t make any sense and now you’re calling me ignorant for trying to explain an opposing position.
It’s obvious now that you’re here for one reason, and that’s to argue and I refuse to cave in to this level of immaturity.

If we can’t have real discussion without contradicting ourselves and saying things like “You’re just being ignorant” like a three year old throwing a board game across the room out of anger and saying “I win!!” would, then I will no longer be part of the conversation.

Good luck on your future trolling endeavors.

Daecollo.9578:

My Warrior is in full Knights, and has 15 points in toughness for higher regeneration, and the trait that gets you another 200 toughness when impaired, which happens a lot.

Warriors hit like trucks with the right traits, but mine is a tank as well as a DPSer.

if I was in Full berserkers, I would probably be hitting more then 18k.

And your being ignorant yourself, if i’m doing more damage then the fight naturally does not last as long.

The shorter the fight is, the better everything goes because of how CDs work.

Would you rather have a fight that you ignore 10% of the damage (blinds.) that lasts 10 minutes…or…

Would you rather have a fight that you ignore 0% of the damage, and lasts 5 minutes?

I think you can awnser this one for me.

I’m glad you enjoy your warrior and I’m sorry thief did not work out for you. I really think you just don’t get it. A thief doesn’t play like a warrior and each adds a different kind of something to a group.

You may not notice or understand how much a thief adds (maybe it’s just not flashy enough?) but I assure you, a good thief is doing his fair share of damage and well as his share of utility.

I don’t really understand why you feel so passionately about this. You obviously don’t want to listen to a word we say and you obviously are done with the thief class so why not just let it go?

Fact of the matter is there are plenty of us thieves who run around solo’ing events, minor bosses, and large mobs with little to no trouble. I generally see other classes, including warriors, die when they try to jump into a fray like I do. I’d be curious to see how large of a mob your warrior could solo without dying. I pretty much guarantee I could do better ;-)

Maybe we should find an event that is unsolo-able and have a challenge across the board to see which class can get the furthest……..that would actually be kind of cool :-)

I think some of you hurt Thief pride here and its understadible because you’re wrong.Thief might not have THE best sustainable DPS of em all and might suck against long range single targets but Thief does NOT suck in PvE.If you claim that you’re nothing but a fool.

Fritz.5026:

i can show you why thieves get complained about and why you get nerfed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgMCb3Z5RxE

skip to about 3 minutes when he actually starts fighting.

all he does is press #2 and then a stealth skill when he runs out of initiative.

….and he is still killing people with those impressive tactics.

im not trying to hate, i wanted to play a thief when i bought the game, but i think the class should be more challenging than this. i would feel lame to play this class right now.

sweet lets quote a video that is over 3 months old

Published on Jul 11, 2012 by Vudani

Its not like heartseeker, base dps, stealth was nerfed recently at all.

Thieves no doubt have have a design that benefits them in PvP disproportionately. This means that as they are ‘tweaked’ for balanced PvP they are simultaneously crippled in PvE where their baseline design as front-loaded glass cannons isn’t as advantageous. Consequently, thieves have a lot of issues in PvE that render them clearly inferior to other professions.

- Damage is bursty and front-loaded, which is much more useful in PvP than it is in PvE. Sustained DPS is in line with other classes if not slightly inferior, which is a major issue when combined with their total lack of attrition in any sort of difficult PvE fight.

- Health is too low for a class that is designed to spend a lot of time in melee range. Their squishiness makes them overly reliant on tactics and mobility to do well in PvE. While this doesn’t sound like it’d be a bad thing, “having a higher skill curve” really just means “the player has to be good enough to compensate for profession’s limitations”. The resulting inequality is a problem.

- Stealth was nerfed to suit PvP and is therefore very inadequate in PvE. The problem is most obvious with the downed state, where Smoke Bomb has a typical 3 second duration, which is so hilariously useless that it actually feels like a bug when you vanish for a couple of seconds and the enemy starts to walk away from you then immediately turns around and resumes attacking you. Stealth should have a longer duration in PvE than it does in PvP. Stealth issues, IMO, is one of the major, major contributors to thieves feeling both OP in PvP and UP in PvE and addressing it should be a top priority.

- D/D and Shortbow are very clearly better than other weapon sets. S/P, S/D, and P/D are mediocre sets that can shine occasionally while D/P and P/P don’t even reach mediocre. I feel like Pistol should be a single target DD like the Warrior’s rifle, and that they should get a new weapon (maybe a crossbow) for conditions.

- Their offensive utility is fairly strong, but their defensive utility is pretty bad, which, apart from being another thing contributing to their survivability issues, helps pigeon-hole them into being built as one-trick-ponies.

Now that that rant is over, I will say that thieves seem to have above average traits and skills, which means that as you get higher level PvE gets easier, especially if you build it in ways that exploit strong synergy.

Einlanzer.1627:

Thieves no doubt have have a design that benefits them in PvP disproportionately. This means that as they are ‘tweaked’ for balanced PvP they are simultaneously crippled in PvE where their baseline design as front-loaded glass cannons isn’t as advantageous. Consequently, thieves have a lot of issues in PvE that render them clearly inferior to other professions.

- Damage is bursty and front-loaded, which is much more useful in PvP than it is in PvE. Sustained DPS is in line with other classes if not slightly inferior, which is a major issue when combined with their total lack of attrition in any sort of difficult PvE fight.

- Health is too low for a class that is designed to spend a lot of time in melee range. Their squishiness makes them overly reliant on tactics and mobility to do well in PvE. While this doesn’t sound like it’d be a bad thing, “having a higher skill curve” really just means “the player has to be good enough to compensate for profession’s limitations”. The resulting inequality is a problem.

- Stealth was nerfed to suit PvP and is therefore very inadequate in PvE. The problem is most obvious with the downed state, where Smoke Bomb has a typical 3 second duration, which is so hilariously useless that it actually feels like a bug when you vanish for a couple of seconds and the enemy starts to walk away from you then immediately turns around and resumes attacking you. Stealth should have a longer duration in PvE than it does in PvP. Stealth issues, IMO, is one of the major, major contributors to thieves feeling both OP in PvP and UP in PvE and addressing it should be a top priority.

- D/D and Shortbow are very clearly better than other weapon sets. S/P, S/D, and P/D are mediocre sets that can shine occasionally while D/P and P/P don’t even reach mediocre. I feel like Pistol should be a single target DD like the Warrior’s rifle, and that they should get a new weapon (maybe a crossbow) for conditions.

- Their offensive utility is fairly strong, but their defensive utility is pretty bad, which, apart from being another thing contributing to their survivability issues, helps pigeon-hole them into being built as one-trick-ponies.

Oh! Someone calmly explaining a position that I am opposed to! I should probably flame fest you haha.

In all seriousness though, I would have to disagree with you as I tank a lot of dungeon groups with sword/dagger, if you notice my previous post on this same thread; I can AoE blind every 4 seconds and single target 2 second daze every 4 seconds as well. If that doesn’t work, I can pull off a timely flanking strike and avoid damage altogether as well.

All in all, I can actually solo most non champion without taking any damage (or close to none)… no joke.

Let me get it straight for you infidels.Thief is not good at survivability , its the best.I’ll give you some time to process that .
Wait what am I saying !
..you’re right folks .Thief sucks !
ANET do something !

P/D, D/D and S/P seem do be doing me good justice.

There’s a boss? COOL LETS PISTOL WHIP IT which in turn I can do almost infinitely (there’s a 2 second period where I can’t pistol whip because my initiative is regenerating and this is without anything into trickery).

There’s multiple mobs? Lets drop caltrops, group them up and pistol whip them too.
Or I can spam dancing dagger and kite all day.

If that’s not feeling too good then I can Dagger Storm with that caltrop and take out a good 6 mobs solo in a few seconds.