Guild Wars 2

McFribble.2349:

Master of Timespace.2548:

McFribble.2349:

Master of Timespace.2548:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Thieves are hard to catch? They can stealth too much? They also have (one) of the lowest HP pools, and also are one of the squishiest classes.

You are just clueless if you think so. Roll a real thief build and see how squishy you actually are xD.

You mean how even with full Vit/Toughness gear they can only manage to get 18k HP even with food?

My Warrior gets that in full Zerker and not a single point on Vit. Yes, Thieves ARE squishy. They just have a lot of evasive options. Learn the difference.

If you feel that you are somehow “easy to kill” / “squishy” as a thief, you are just a bad player. I’m not even a good thief yet I hardly ever die. If I do it’s because I did something super stupid. (like ran to legendary defenders)

Learn the difference.

I have already: evasion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face tanking.

You are denying that Thieves can’t take much abuse before dying. That is what squishy means. Try to save face all you want, but you are wrong, plain and simple.

McFribble.2349:

Master of Timespace.2548:

McFribble.2349:

Master of Timespace.2548:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Thieves are hard to catch? They can stealth too much? They also have (one) of the lowest HP pools, and also are one of the squishiest classes.

You are just clueless if you think so. Roll a real thief build and see how squishy you actually are xD.

You mean how even with full Vit/Toughness gear they can only manage to get 18k HP even with food?

My Warrior gets that in full Zerker and not a single point on Vit. Yes, Thieves ARE squishy. They just have a lot of evasive options. Learn the difference.

If you feel that you are somehow “easy to kill” / “squishy” as a thief, you are just a bad player. I’m not even a good thief yet I hardly ever die. If I do it’s because I did something super stupid. (like ran to legendary defenders)

Learn the difference.

I have already: evasion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face tanking.

You are denying that Thieves can’t take much abuse before dying. That is what squishy means. Try to save face all you want, but you are wrong, plain and simple.

AVOIDING an attack is very different from eating one. And under the right circumstances, any class can force a Thief to eat a hefty number of attacks either killing him or forcing him to run away.

By your logic guard is squishy as well. xD Let’s look at the facts:
1. Guard and Thief have same low base health.
2. Guard has ~200 more armor. So he takes about 10% less damage, and so has only 10% better EHP.

You just have to realise that in this game “squishiness” has nothing to do with base stats / armor. It’s all just a matter of how you spec your character.

And under the right circumstances, any class can force a Thief to eat a hefty number of attacks either killing him or forcing him to run away.

Well under the right circumstances true is false and false is true. But kitten comments aside, it’s certainly easier to force any other class, except perhaps mesmer, to eat up damage than it is to force a thief. That is the reason so many thieves (and mesmers) run a glass build: because they can.

Did anyone even see the thief? from the video he was either in perma stealth or culled out or not rendered by you client due to your settings.

If in deed he is in perma stealth that is just kitten how can you fight or target something you can’t see further more how is that balanced? sure i can see tell tales of stealth application but he is long gone from that spot rather quickly.

Axle.5182:

Did anyone even see the thief? from the video he was either in perma stealth or culled out or not rendered by you client due to your settings.

If in deed he is in perma stealth that is just kitten how can you fight or target something you can’t see further more how is that balanced? sure i can see tell tales of stealth application but he is long gone from that spot rather quickly.

Your point? Was he going to backstab one shot the gate? It’s not like the thief is drawing a battle marker, he’s just being a nuisance.

Dual.8953:

Axle.5182:

Did anyone even see the thief? from the video he was either in perma stealth or culled out or not rendered by you client due to your settings.

If in deed he is in perma stealth that is just kitten how can you fight or target something you can’t see further more how is that balanced? sure i can see tell tales of stealth application but he is long gone from that spot rather quickly.

Your point? Was he going to backstab one shot the gate? It’s not like the thief is drawing a battle marker, he’s just being a nuisance.

Honestly, this.
I see so much “OMG LOOK @ PERMA STEALTH” but I never see “OMG look…he didn’t do a single thing to anyone nor can he!” Yes it can be bloody annoying but really, what’s he gonna do in there? Port players in? Gank every character as they get out? Solo the entire keep? Kill all your outter wall siege? No. All he’s doing is kitten ing you off and guess what, people let him.

so i watched this youtube video and laughed….thieves cant portal anyone in…….they cant solo flip it unless its a tower……. so the thieve is only in there laughing at the N**bs that are chasing after a ghost that cant do anything….. wtf is the point?

well i think we have here another case of the waterfield syndrome…

first thing first : this game is/was not designed for any classes to use unlimited stealth at will at any time

so with this premise lets look what makes the perma stealth thief so OP:
the possibility to reset the whole fight for himself while using a minimum of utility skills and have no need to use these to kill someone else.

My experience with d/p thieves as a p/d (playing more for the lulz):

Round 1
he comes at me, kills of 30% of my hp i use caltrops, steal with poison, c&d then the one. he has like 10-15 bleeding stacks, he goes to stealth.
Round 2
after 5sec. he comes back at me again. full health, not a single bleeding stack no poison and even some might stacks while i am lurking at 80% hp… same procedure as above i fight left reght then i see my health is low .. refuge .. he just stealths away.
Round 3
he comes for the kill (with 100% life no conditions).. i use my signet blind him use dagger storm he backs off phew
Round 4
he comes again, calltrops still on 4 sec. cooldown,.. using heal signet.. health still dropps c&d, runaway but then down from autoattack.. i die, he is with 70% hp…

this repeated 3 times then i gave the supp camp and the dollys up.

in this fight every single of my utility was able to help me fend off the thief (at this point dear reader please remember not every class has such usefull utility skills), but every time i got the edge, put pressure on him, he vanished and reseted the fight for him while keeping most of the utility up and ready. somebody above said it a tactics to kill tanks.. well it doesnt kill only tanks, it kills everything with a 99% success ratio…

you say this has no uses in wvw? destroying siege, killing caravans, farming people runnig from spawn to the keep while its under siege… these things are crucial and the perma stealth thief excel so good at this things its just retarted…

tl;dr
perma stealth thieves have no valid counters besides 10 supplys and a stealth trap and that’s why they are OP

Honestly, if thieves bother you, bring stealth traps and run in a group. When they start harassing your group, have a player drop a trap.

We did this today and I bet that DB General was really confused when his shadow refuge was followed quickly by his death.

lunoh.1963:

well i think we have here another case of the waterfield syndrome…

first thing first : this game is/was not designed for any classes to use unlimited stealth at will at any time

so with this premise lets look what makes the perma stealth thief so OP:
the possibility to reset the whole fight for himself while using a minimum of utility skills and have no need to use these to kill someone else.

My experience with d/p thieves as a p/d (playing more for the lulz):

Round 1
he comes at me, kills of 30% of my hp i use caltrops, steal with poison, c&d then the one. he has like 10-15 bleeding stacks, he goes to stealth.
Round 2
after 5sec. he comes back at me again. full health, not a single bleeding stack no poison and even some might stacks while i am lurking at 80% hp… same procedure as above i fight left reght then i see my health is low .. refuge .. he just stealths away.
Round 3
he comes for the kill (with 100% life no conditions).. i use my signet blind him use dagger storm he backs off phew
Round 4
he comes again, calltrops still on 4 sec. cooldown,.. using heal signet.. health still dropps c&d, runaway but then down from autoattack.. i die, he is with 70% hp…

this repeated 3 times then i gave the supp camp and the dollys up.

in this fight every single of my utility was able to help me fend off the thief (at this point dear reader please remember not every class has such usefull utility skills), but every time i got the edge, put pressure on him, he vanished and reseted the fight for him while keeping most of the utility up and ready. somebody above said it a tactics to kill tanks.. well it doesnt kill only tanks, it kills everything with a 99% success ratio…

you say this has no uses in wvw? destroying siege, killing caravans, farming people runnig from spawn to the keep while its under siege… these things are crucial and the perma stealth thief excel so good at this things its just retarted…

tl;dr
perma stealth thieves have no valid counters besides 10 supplys and a stealth trap and that’s why they are OP

So you stood toe-to-toe with this guy?
Why didn’t you back off and give yourself some time to heal or gain cooldowns?
If he had to chase a little he would be at a disadvantage, losing initiative and probably missing attacks.
Perhaps you did, I dunno, but simply moving around a lot, dodging and AOEing usually deters them enough to move on.

Sounds like you wanted to prove a point, but it just showed that his build was better than yours for that scenario.

Excalibur.9748:

why would you disable comments/ratings for the video?

Because all you’d see is ‘L2P’, ‘noob’, ‘haha you suck’, and maybe a ‘thieves are op’. Basically, nothing constructive, so why even let them?

OP, while I am on the side of ‘stealth is broken’, one mistake I noticed is that everyone clustered together hitting the same area, very easy for a thief to avoid. Spread out and you have a better chance to catch them. Not too far, don’t want to get ganked.

In this current game state, thieves have superior hiding and getaway skills, so it’s best just to ignore them when you can. In this case, I’d have followed him around to make sure he didn’t tag up with a Mesmer and then just left. The thief can’t kill the Castle Lord on his own and cap before anyone notices.

Clownmug.8357:

CC seems to stop most thieves. They usually have the same two utilities: shadow refuge and signet of shadows. That means they only have one stun breaker if they’re even using one and their only access to stability is dagger storm.

Yup. They are my primaries. I have less tho since I find pistols boring and only occasionally use em for, well, a change of pace before they bore me again. DD/SB thief is me and mobility/agility caltrops flying as I regen endurance. Ya die more, but I find it more fun. Guys need to roll a thief and find out how they work and get back to it. Playing em learns ya them. Got one of each prof now but mez and engi. Played one long enough to know I find it boring as all hell. Not my style. I lobe flying thru a breach Storming everyone then caltrop dodge and heal/poof. Dun always work, but it’s fun :} Lootbags like crazy tagging everything in sight with trickshot/clusterbomb thru a poison field is awesome too.

wish.1027:

@Escthiil.3210
Thats a horrible, horrible game. It’s a WoW clone with an FF logo and nothing more.

@this thread, lol, thats my favorite thing to do, I always play the benny hill song while doing it too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9RUoExrTsg
I come out of stealth sometimes though so they chase me more, I find it gets their hopes up and keeps them around longer wasting their time.

lololol

EnemyCrusher.7324:

The simple solution is to make any weapon skill usage cause reveal rather than only ones that hit. This would prevent the Smoke Screen / Cluster Bomb combo from granting unlimited stealth without destroying the stealth mechanic itself.

Yeah. That’s dumb. How are you supposed to ‘know’ someone has used a weapon if it doesn’t hit anything? Oh look maa, I swung my dagger, everyone can see that!

Thobek.1730:

testpig.5018:

solutions:
-if damage is taken while in stealth.. the damage numbers should appear the the player delivering the attack.
-If hit by a critical attack while stealth, you should be revealed
-All traps triggered by a stealth player should cause the player to be revealed
-Any attack from stealth if blocked should reveal the player
-If targeting a player that enters stealth, and not acquiring a new target before the stealth player reappears, should automatically re-target
-The first attack from dropping from stealth OR from being stealth should have the same bonuses as the attack from stealth.

-signed.

I like all these ideas.

currently a thief can just stealth and no damage will effect that stealth at all. nothing can break it. Which is stupid.

As for the video the OP posted – that’s just a disgustingly good example on how stupid stealth is in this game. Come on Anet – start thinking a bit harder. You started off saying “stealth is a incredibly powerful mechanic that should be used sparingly.” Now you let thieves have a perma stealth build option.

No it isn’t. That video was an excellent example of how to stupidly try to find a thief. Run round like chickens with your head cut off, don’t communicate, drop traps in non-choke points, overlap traps to minimize coverage, spam aoe on where the smoke IS, or trap has gone off, rather then in places the thief might go…..

It’s a perfect example of how to hunt for a thief WRONG.

Thobek.1730:

Nikola.3841:

Sunflowers.1729:

Svarty.8019:

Advice to budding developers (because Anet’s won’t learn): NEVER put stealth classes in a mulitplayer game.

Well, stealth is alright if it is implemented properly.

Look at games like LoL/Dota – there is stealth there too but because there are counters (wards, dust of appearance) and because stealthed characters don’t have the best mobility and burst in the game it can be balanced.

Or DAOC…any damage takes you out of stealth, and you cant restealth as long as someone is watching you or you have DOT on you, and while stealthed you move way slower

someone posted DAOC stealth mechanics in another thread but missed some of those points. I think DAOC had it done brilliantly. Never played the game but it sounds great. Thieves already have the highest mobility so stealth should be dealt this way and it wouldn’t completely destroy the class, some skills would need a rework of course.

Have no problem with moving slower in stealth. Depending on what is causing the stealth. If it’s some ‘field’ where I’m being sneaky,I should be moving slower so as to be sneaky. If I threw powder in your face so you can’t see kitten, well, you can’t see kitten regardless of how fast I’m moving.

Sleel.8365:

No it isn’t. That video was an excellent example of how to stupidly try to find a thief. Run round like chickens with your head cut off, don’t communicate, drop traps in non-choke points, overlap traps to minimize coverage, spam aoe on where the smoke IS, or trap has gone off, rather then in places the thief might go…..

It’s a perfect example of how to hunt for a thief WRONG.

please do tell us you sure fire ways to hunt down a thief. In that video he had 360 degree exit points since it was in open ground. So what choke points are you talking about. walk around dropping AoE on all the stairs leading to the walls in Stonemist?

Come on, I’d like to hear your ideas that are so good on how to hunt a thief that is invisible 100% of the time and can teleport large distances.

bhagwad.4281:

KStudios.2850:

A profession that does little outside pestering the enemy and pwning in 1v1’s

Lol. Pestering and pwning in 1v1s gives far more satisfaction and is much more rewarding than taking some impersonal tower or keep.

1v1s are what really matter from an emotional point of view. Group play is overrated.

Then why are you in WvW and not PvP?

Master of Timespace.2548:

McFribble.2349:

Master of Timespace.2548:

McFribble.2349:

Master of Timespace.2548:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Thieves are hard to catch? They can stealth too much? They also have (one) of the lowest HP pools, and also are one of the squishiest classes.

You are just clueless if you think so. Roll a real thief build and see how squishy you actually are xD.

You mean how even with full Vit/Toughness gear they can only manage to get 18k HP even with food?

My Warrior gets that in full Zerker and not a single point on Vit. Yes, Thieves ARE squishy. They just have a lot of evasive options. Learn the difference.

If you feel that you are somehow “easy to kill” / “squishy” as a thief, you are just a bad player. I’m not even a good thief yet I hardly ever die. If I do it’s because I did something super stupid. (like ran to legendary defenders)

Learn the difference.

I have already: evasion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face tanking.

You are denying that Thieves can’t take much abuse before dying. That is what squishy means. Try to save face all you want, but you are wrong, plain and simple.

McFribble.2349:

Master of Timespace.2548:

McFribble.2349:

Master of Timespace.2548:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Thieves are hard to catch? They can stealth too much? They also have (one) of the lowest HP pools, and also are one of the squishiest classes.

You are just clueless if you think so. Roll a real thief build and see how squishy you actually are xD.

You mean how even with full Vit/Toughness gear they can only manage to get 18k HP even with food?

My Warrior gets that in full Zerker and not a single point on Vit. Yes, Thieves ARE squishy. They just have a lot of evasive options. Learn the difference.

If you feel that you are somehow “easy to kill” / “squishy” as a thief, you are just a bad player. I’m not even a good thief yet I hardly ever die. If I do it’s because I did something super stupid. (like ran to legendary defenders)

Learn the difference.

I have already: evasion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face tanking.

You are denying that Thieves can’t take much abuse before dying. That is what squishy means. Try to save face all you want, but you are wrong, plain and simple.

AVOIDING an attack is very different from eating one. And under the right circumstances, any class can force a Thief to eat a hefty number of attacks either killing him or forcing him to run away.

By your logic guard is squishy as well. xD Let’s look at the facts:
1. Guard and Thief have same low base health.
2. Guard has ~200 more armor. So he takes about 10% less damage, and so has only 10% better EHP.

You just have to realise that in this game “squishiness” has nothing to do with base stats / armor. It’s all just a matter of how you spec your character.

And under the right circumstances, any class can force a Thief to eat a hefty number of attacks either killing him or forcing him to run away.

Well under the right circumstances true is false and false is true. But kitten comments aside, it’s certainly easier to force any other class, except perhaps mesmer, to eat up damage than it is to force a thief. That is the reason so many thieves (and mesmers) run a glass build: because they can.

yeah….. that’s why I can pop my heal on my guard and be back to almost full health, from 1k, while if I do that on my thief, he’s at 1/3 heatlh….. yeah, a guard is a squishy (all classes but engi and mez)

Sleel.8365:

bhagwad.4281:

KStudios.2850:

A profession that does little outside pestering the enemy and pwning in 1v1’s

Lol. Pestering and pwning in 1v1s gives far more satisfaction and is much more rewarding than taking some impersonal tower or keep.

1v1s are what really matter from an emotional point of view. Group play is overrated.

Then why are you in WvW and not PvP?

I share the same sentiment as the person you quoted. In short, the reason I mostly play WvW more the sPvP is because WvW players are soooo bad at PvP so there is an abundance of delicious tears.

Sleel.8365:

yeah….. that’s why I can pop my heal on my guard and be back to almost full health, from 1k, while if I do that on my thief, he’s at 1/3 heatlh….. yeah, a guard is a squishy (all classes but engi and mez)

Um, while Guardians are less squishy than Thieves even though they have the same health, you can’t just use something that is flat out wrong to support your point

These two abilities have the same cool down, both grant some defensive bonus, and the Thief one heals more.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shelter – 4555/30 = 151 hp/second
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows – 5240/30 = 174 hp/second (didn’t factor in regeneration)

Even if you use the highest healing skill per cooldown, Thieves outstrip Guardians

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Resolve – 8150/40 = 203 hp/second
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw – 4344/15 = 289.6 hp/second (almost 50% more than the Guardian! and it gives a dodge + condition removal too)

To get the result that you have, your Guardian would need incredibly low HP (or very high healing), and the Thief would need lots of vitality beyond what is usually required.

In short, stop using bad examples.

Edit: Okay technically you can be right, but it doesn’t give the entire picture at all.

Thobek.1730:

Sleel.8365:

No it isn’t. That video was an excellent example of how to stupidly try to find a thief. Run round like chickens with your head cut off, don’t communicate, drop traps in non-choke points, overlap traps to minimize coverage, spam aoe on where the smoke IS, or trap has gone off, rather then in places the thief might go…..

It’s a perfect example of how to hunt for a thief WRONG.

please do tell us you sure fire ways to hunt down a thief. In that video he had 360 degree exit points since it was in open ground. So what choke points are you talking about. walk around dropping AoE on all the stairs leading to the walls in Stonemist?

Come on, I’d like to hear your ideas that are so good on how to hunt a thief that is invisible 100% of the time and can teleport large distances.

Had a nice narrowed area between the two open ones they could have dropped their traps in. Never did once. He just ran back and forth between the two big zones. And when he did hit the spike trap and was bleeding, did nothing. Just nailed where he was not in areas he would have been dodging to. Crippled doesn’t mean immobilized. Like another post said. they put their aoes on top of each other, not spread out to find him. Not that they were going to with the small number they had in that vid. And we can’t teleport all that far. Hell, a warrior can leap farther then our ranged weapons shoot. None of our weapons are that long ranged.
Not that I run this type of build. Not the type that finds this kinda fight fun. Prefer a mobility/agility build with some escape stealth if it going bad. More fun for me. Guess others like it better cause it means they can catch me sometimes when I Leroy Jenkins into a group, cause that’s the way I am x] Well, not a kittenedly big group, but I find bouncing around caltrops flying, singing “Can’t Touch This” to myself hilarious. Get caught sometimes, but meh, I just dun find stealth thieving fun. Ain’t my thing.

Worried about getting my kitten kicked when I start taking my other toons into WvW. Not used to playing with them, and guards are just so kitten slow. (no, I hate the staff skills, don’t waste my time with their 8 second speed :P )

So yeah, ramble rambly. Thief trolled guys back and forth, not dying and not getting anything done but wasting their time. Success for him, I guess, I could never do it cause from my side, that is boring as all hell. They coulda repaired that breach OP mentioned in another post, gotten more ppl there and dealt with him then, rather then run around like the closing scene in a Benny Hill episode.

Sunflowers.1729:

Sleel.8365:

yeah….. that’s why I can pop my heal on my guard and be back to almost full health, from 1k, while if I do that on my thief, he’s at 1/3 heatlh….. yeah, a guard is a squishy (all classes but engi and mez)

Um, while Guardians are less squishy than Thieves even though they have the same health, you can’t just use something that is flat out wrong to support your point

These two abilities have the same cool down, both grant some defensive bonus, and the Thief one heals more.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shelter – 4555/30 = 151 hp/second
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows – 5240/30 = 174 hp/second (didn’t factor in regeneration)

Even if you use the highest healing skill per cooldown, Thieves outstrip Guardians

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Resolve – 8150/40 = 203 hp/second
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw – 4344/15 = 289.6 hp/second (almost 50% more than the Guardian! and it gives a dodge + condition removal too)

To get the result that you have, your Guardian would need incredibly low HP (or very high healing), and the Thief would need lots of vitality beyond what is usually required.

In short, stop using bad examples.

Edit: Okay technically you can be right, but it doesn’t give the entire picture at all.

Yeah…. and I don’t play both classes and know from using them rather then spec sheets and assumptions on what build I’m using either…

Sleel.8365:

Sunflowers.1729:

Sleel.8365:

yeah….. that’s why I can pop my heal on my guard and be back to almost full health, from 1k, while if I do that on my thief, he’s at 1/3 heatlh….. yeah, a guard is a squishy (all classes but engi and mez)

Um, while Guardians are less squishy than Thieves even though they have the same health, you can’t just use something that is flat out wrong to support your point

These two abilities have the same cool down, both grant some defensive bonus, and the Thief one heals more.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shelter – 4555/30 = 151 hp/second
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows – 5240/30 = 174 hp/second (didn’t factor in regeneration)

Even if you use the highest healing skill per cooldown, Thieves outstrip Guardians

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Resolve – 8150/40 = 203 hp/second
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw – 4344/15 = 289.6 hp/second (almost 50% more than the Guardian! and it gives a dodge + condition removal too)

To get the result that you have, your Guardian would need incredibly low HP (or very high healing), and the Thief would need lots of vitality beyond what is usually required.

In short, stop using bad examples.

Edit: Okay technically you can be right, but it doesn’t give the entire picture at all.

Yeah…. and I don’t play both classes and know from using them rather then spec sheets and assumptions on what build I’m using either…

I have both a Guardian and a Thief at 80 too, and never get the results that you are describing.

The numbers described in the wiki don’t lie. I’m more inclined to believe something that can be checked, than an anecdote from a probably biased person.

Edit: And if that was your best argument, just an “oh I think I’m right so I must be”, then there is no reason to ever read anything that you post from now on.

Sunflowers.1729:

Sleel.8365:

Sunflowers.1729:

Sleel.8365:

yeah….. that’s why I can pop my heal on my guard and be back to almost full health, from 1k, while if I do that on my thief, he’s at 1/3 heatlh….. yeah, a guard is a squishy (all classes but engi and mez)

Um, while Guardians are less squishy than Thieves even though they have the same health, you can’t just use something that is flat out wrong to support your point

These two abilities have the same cool down, both grant some defensive bonus, and the Thief one heals more.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shelter – 4555/30 = 151 hp/second
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows – 5240/30 = 174 hp/second (didn’t factor in regeneration)

Even if you use the highest healing skill per cooldown, Thieves outstrip Guardians

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Resolve – 8150/40 = 203 hp/second
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw – 4344/15 = 289.6 hp/second (almost 50% more than the Guardian! and it gives a dodge + condition removal too)

To get the result that you have, your Guardian would need incredibly low HP (or very high healing), and the Thief would need lots of vitality beyond what is usually required.

In short, stop using bad examples.

Edit: Okay technically you can be right, but it doesn’t give the entire picture at all.

Yeah…. and I don’t play both classes and know from using them rather then spec sheets and assumptions on what build I’m using either…

I have both a Guardian and a Thief at 80 too, and never get the results that you are describing.

The numbers described in the wiki don’t lie. I’m more inclined to believe something that can be checked, than an anecdote from a probably biased person.

Check your own biases, and check again what was said about assuming what builds I use. I don’t use either of those thief heals, cause I don’t play the style that benefits from them.

Sleel.8365:

Sunflowers.1729:

Sleel.8365:

Sunflowers.1729:

Sleel.8365:

yeah….. that’s why I can pop my heal on my guard and be back to almost full health, from 1k, while if I do that on my thief, he’s at 1/3 heatlh….. yeah, a guard is a squishy (all classes but engi and mez)

Um, while Guardians are less squishy than Thieves even though they have the same health, you can’t just use something that is flat out wrong to support your point

These two abilities have the same cool down, both grant some defensive bonus, and the Thief one heals more.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shelter – 4555/30 = 151 hp/second
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows – 5240/30 = 174 hp/second (didn’t factor in regeneration)

Even if you use the highest healing skill per cooldown, Thieves outstrip Guardians

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Resolve – 8150/40 = 203 hp/second
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw – 4344/15 = 289.6 hp/second (almost 50% more than the Guardian! and it gives a dodge + condition removal too)

To get the result that you have, your Guardian would need incredibly low HP (or very high healing), and the Thief would need lots of vitality beyond what is usually required.

In short, stop using bad examples.

Edit: Okay technically you can be right, but it doesn’t give the entire picture at all.

Yeah…. and I don’t play both classes and know from using them rather then spec sheets and assumptions on what build I’m using either…

I have both a Guardian and a Thief at 80 too, and never get the results that you are describing.

The numbers described in the wiki don’t lie. I’m more inclined to believe something that can be checked, than an anecdote from a probably biased person.

Check your own biases, and check again what was said about assuming what builds I use. I don’t use either of those thief heals, cause I don’t play the style that benefits from them.

Yes, you are technically correct in this one case. Your post is still misleading.

I can also be ‘technically correct’ and say “Look at this 30/30/10/0/0 build Elementalist, he sucks at healing. All Elementalists must have terrible healing abilities”. Obviously in this one case he does have next-to-zero healing, but to extend that to “all Elementalists have crap healing” is obviously stupid and flat out wrong.

I like how this entire thread is a circular argument of people not reading previous posts or a game of word semantics.

Grumpy.8365:

I like how this entire thread is a circular argument of people not reading previous posts or a game of word semantics.

I challenge thee to a game of word semantics, Ill begin by reading your post!

Castaliea.3156:

Dual.8953:

Axle.5182:

Did anyone even see the thief? from the video he was either in perma stealth or culled out or not rendered by you client due to your settings.

If in deed he is in perma stealth that is just kitten how can you fight or target something you can’t see further more how is that balanced? sure i can see tell tales of stealth application but he is long gone from that spot rather quickly.

Your point? Was he going to backstab one shot the gate? It’s not like the thief is drawing a battle marker, he’s just being a nuisance.

Honestly, this.
I see so much “OMG LOOK @ PERMA STEALTH” but I never see “OMG look…he didn’t do a single thing to anyone nor can he!” Yes it can be bloody annoying but really, what’s he gonna do in there? Port players in? Gank every character as they get out? Solo the entire keep? Kill all your outter wall siege? No. All he’s doing is kitten ing you off and guess what, people let him.

Yep it always comes down to this, 90% of thief kitten and moan threads all stink of: “I am kitten ed that I cannot kill this guy, even though killing him does nothing but satisfy my need to kill him”. The thief isnt gonna port people in, so unless there is a mesmer just leave the thief, and do not allow him to troll you.

Last night, in EB one server had SM walls down. I ran in on my thief just to get some intel for my server, as we neither owned SM nor had taken the wall down. I was laughing my kitten off the whole time as the defending server sent 3-4 of the 20 defending the breach after me. 2 minutes later 3-4 turned into 5-6, 10 minutes after that 10-12, etc…..

Eventually they had enough chasing me that the server that actually downed the wall in the first place was able to at least push in, because the “defenders” left their post to chase “one annoying thief”…

another example of a thread where everyone arguing pro-thief with “L2P” plays a thief himself. hilarious. i’ve lost my trust in Anet that they even can fix it. because where there is no problem, there is no solution and this 3 second revealed crap showed me they dont see no problem so nvm about thief.. just build tank or get instagibbed by invisibles in wvw, thats how its supposed to be by design.

Some are..those are the ones i dont bother with.But thiefs that Do like a fight more instead of hiding and running away and stealthing,can be fun to play against.Those other perm stealth cowards i will not waste my time on,suggest you do the same and only fight thiefs who know how to fight back.

Ignore them. Hes just messing with you but is doing no actual harm there.

As you said in OP the only thing he can do is res a dead memser.. so why dont you instead of trying to chase a perma stealth thieve around SM, just go guard the dead memsers corpse and put a stealth trap on it?

Forzani.2584:

I sit back and watch Thieves from my server terrorize small groups to mini zergs. That way I can actually get an idea what the Thief is doing since I can see him even when stealthed. Thief kills someone, stealths, teleports away and watches from total safety as the zerg runs around like a chicken with it’s head cutoff using aoes and swinging their weapons in the air. Laughable.

The biggest problem isn’t stealth …or mobility…it’s stealthed mobility. Daoc had it right. Even though they had perma stealth, your mobility was severly hampered. Your movement speed was maybe 50% slower than not stealthed.

GW2 ? Two different shadowsteps that teleport you 1200+ units away in a blink. Spam heartseekers…use SB and you can put a ton of distance between you and the enemy. Never mind Fleet shadows that is a 50% movement speed while in stealth…..which is kind of weird imo. The fastest movement speed in the game is while stealthed ? Hopefully I have that wrong.

So the Thieves that come on here telling us to use AOE …yea right. Unless you have a 1200 unit aoe spell I don’t know about good luck hitting a thief with it.

Currently there is zero penalty to be stealthed. No movement speed penalty and zero counters. Plus when you are stealthed you can’t even be damaged to take you out of stealth. Yes, you can get hit while in stealth ….but you are also likely under a very strong regen and condition removal….and as mentioned earlier, very unlucky if you do take a ton of damage while stealthed with all the mobility.

Very poor game design.

Stealth in GW2 is pretty much total immunity.

Agreed, I keep saying this since the launch, stealth has to be broken by damage, or your speed slowed down, or at least certain abilities disabled, especially the ones used to escape fast. Either you stay in stealth and sneak away slowly.. or teleport away to the horizon in 2 seconds. Not both hat once.

It’s ridiculously OP both in PvP and PvE for the thief to be able to move away miles in two seconds, beyond reach. Who even cares about stealth here, the mobility itself is OP, there is no way a good thief can be killed if he doesn’t want to be dead, he’ll blink away and that’s about it.

Currently thief’s stealth and mobility combo is as OP as perma-stun ability in some games. You can’t do much if you’re stunned 100% of the fight. Neither can you do much if the thief is either invisible, or beyond any reach.

Castaliea.3156:

Dual.8953:

Axle.5182:

Did anyone even see the thief? from the video he was either in perma stealth or culled out or not rendered by you client due to your settings.

If in deed he is in perma stealth that is just kitten how can you fight or target something you can’t see further more how is that balanced? sure i can see tell tales of stealth application but he is long gone from that spot rather quickly.

Your point? Was he going to backstab one shot the gate? It’s not like the thief is drawing a battle marker, he’s just being a nuisance.

Honestly, this.
I see so much “OMG LOOK @ PERMA STEALTH” but I never see “OMG look…he didn’t do a single thing to anyone nor can he!” Yes it can be bloody annoying but really, what’s he gonna do in there? Port players in? Gank every character as they get out? Solo the entire keep? Kill all your outter wall siege? No. All he’s doing is kitten ing you off and guess what, people let him.

I would agree to just move on, except one night my guildies and I had to waste much of a night in WvW because of this. The reason being,..there was a dead mesmer who wouldn’t release inside the keep. This mesmer/thief combo did this to eeeevery keep we took. While the rest of the zerg mindlessly moved on and took keeps we had to sit there and get trolled by a thief. Otherwise we would lose a keep which we invested gold and resources to D up to a cheap one-trick pony class.

Refreshing this topic with another example. This time he was not only annoying but also dangerous to our siege.
He didn’t come back after this video… and we wasted 5 stealth traps in case he did and 10 ppl to guard.

I don’t want opinions. I want only 1 thing: someone from ANet give us short answer if they think it needs fixing or not. Only this, so I know if I should just leave or wait and hope.

bottomline – no class should be able to spend such a high % of their time invisible.

I really enjoy playing wvw but the permastealth thieves are really beginning to suck the joy out of the game for me.

Did you know that thief can easily chain 12 seconds of stealth from just 1 black powder? (4 x hs)

So much failure in here. It’s bizarre.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Did you know that thief can easily chain 12 seconds of stealth from just 1 black powder? (4 x hs)

To start he’d be lucky to get 4 hs on a black powder. I can only manage 3 at the best of times but whatever.
And then what?
Zero initiative… some will regen while in stealth but what’s the point?

Do you realise certain spec Guardians are almost impossible to kill.
Do you realise Mesmers can port lots of people inside keeps.
Do you realise whine whine whine…

So what! Get on with your life.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Did you know that thief can easily chain 12 seconds of stealth from just 1 black powder? (4 x hs)

Yeah, and if you attack someone while stealthed…you’re no longer stealthed. That’s 12 seconds where the thief is useless at doing anything but hiding.

Hickeroar.9734:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Did you know that thief can easily chain 12 seconds of stealth from just 1 black powder? (4 x hs)

Yeah, and if you attack someone while stealthed…you’re no longer stealthed. That’s 12 seconds where the thief is useless at doing anything but hiding.

No, its 12 sec of him wasting time of few other ppl, because if they justleave him, he will kill dolly, destroy siege or w/e

Terkov.4138:

Hickeroar.9734:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Did you know that thief can easily chain 12 seconds of stealth from just 1 black powder? (4 x hs)

Yeah, and if you attack someone while stealthed…you’re no longer stealthed. That’s 12 seconds where the thief is useless at doing anything but hiding.

No, its 12 sec of him wasting time of few other ppl, because if they justleave him, he will kill dolly, destroy siege or w/e

You don’t need to be a thief to destroy a dolyak or siege. :-P

Hickeroar.9734:

Terkov.4138:

Hickeroar.9734:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Did you know that thief can easily chain 12 seconds of stealth from just 1 black powder? (4 x hs)

Yeah, and if you attack someone while stealthed…you’re no longer stealthed. That’s 12 seconds where the thief is useless at doing anything but hiding.

No, its 12 sec of him wasting time of few other ppl, because if they justleave him, he will kill dolly, destroy siege or w/e

You don’t need to be a thief to destroy a dolyak or siege. :-P

Nope, you only need to be a thief if you want to destroy a dolyak or siege with 5+ people guarding it.

Mek.2947:

Hickeroar.9734:

Terkov.4138:

Hickeroar.9734:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Did you know that thief can easily chain 12 seconds of stealth from just 1 black powder? (4 x hs)

Yeah, and if you attack someone while stealthed…you’re no longer stealthed. That’s 12 seconds where the thief is useless at doing anything but hiding.

No, its 12 sec of him wasting time of few other ppl, because if they justleave him, he will kill dolly, destroy siege or w/e

You don’t need to be a thief to destroy a dolyak or siege. :-P

Nope, you only need to be a thief if you want to destroy a dolyak or siege with 5+ people guarding it and get away.

Fixed that for you. Any high burst build can do it easily, its the getting away part that is hard for anyone but a thief.

Zikory.6871:

Mek.2947:

Hickeroar.9734:

Terkov.4138:

Hickeroar.9734:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Did you know that thief can easily chain 12 seconds of stealth from just 1 black powder? (4 x hs)

Yeah, and if you attack someone while stealthed…you’re no longer stealthed. That’s 12 seconds where the thief is useless at doing anything but hiding.

No, its 12 sec of him wasting time of few other ppl, because if they justleave him, he will kill dolly, destroy siege or w/e

You don’t need to be a thief to destroy a dolyak or siege. :-P

Nope, you only need to be a thief if you want to destroy a dolyak or siege with 5+ people guarding it and get away.

Fixed that for you. Any high burst build can do it easily, its the getting away part that is hard for anyone but a thief.

Touche…everyone else needs to WP back afterwards.

Zikory.6871:

Mek.2947:

Hickeroar.9734:

Terkov.4138:

Hickeroar.9734:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Did you know that thief can easily chain 12 seconds of stealth from just 1 black powder? (4 x hs)

Yeah, and if you attack someone while stealthed…you’re no longer stealthed. That’s 12 seconds where the thief is useless at doing anything but hiding.

No, its 12 sec of him wasting time of few other ppl, because if they justleave him, he will kill dolly, destroy siege or w/e

You don’t need to be a thief to destroy a dolyak or siege. :-P

Nope, you only need to be a thief if you want to destroy a dolyak or siege with 5+ people guarding it and get away.

Fixed that for you. Any high burst build can do it easily, its the getting away part that is hard for anyone but a thief.

Getting away on a D/D ele or mesmer is trivial

Oh, topic moved to thief forum… get ready for “L2P n00b!” spam!

Terkov.4138:

Oh, topic moved to thief forum… get ready for “L2P n00b!” spam!

What you expect? WvW it’s for WvW talking not specific class. It finally was moved, about time.

thiagoperne.7340:

Zikory.6871:

Mek.2947:

Hickeroar.9734:

Terkov.4138:

Hickeroar.9734:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Did you know that thief can easily chain 12 seconds of stealth from just 1 black powder? (4 x hs)

Yeah, and if you attack someone while stealthed…you’re no longer stealthed. That’s 12 seconds where the thief is useless at doing anything but hiding.

No, its 12 sec of him wasting time of few other ppl, because if they justleave him, he will kill dolly, destroy siege or w/e

You don’t need to be a thief to destroy a dolyak or siege. :-P

Nope, you only need to be a thief if you want to destroy a dolyak or siege with 5+ people guarding it and get away.

Fixed that for you. Any high burst build can do it easily, its the getting away part that is hard for anyone but a thief.

If I have time I would show you every class killing dolyak with 5 ppl guarding it and getting away. Unfortunately I don’t.

I didn’t say other classes can’t do it, I meant thakittens easier for thieves because of stealth and shadow steps.

Back on point, the dudes in the video had no idea what they were doing.

To be completely fair, almost every time you tried to do anything about the thief, you did something to mess it up. You did good to run towards the black powder. That made it so he could no longer use the field to chain stealth… but you shouldn’t have ran into it. You hit the thief multiple times but every time it missed cause you blinded yourself. On top of that, if you or an ally had continued to get into those fields and fast, the thief could not have continued to chained stealth. Also every time you threw your traps, you threw where the thief was instead of where he was headed. You could have cut off choke points so either he’d damage himself big and let all you know exactly where he was and where he was heading. That OR he’d be forced into a smaller area. At around the 1 min mark in the vid, you got blinded then just kept running forward. That was your queue that the thief was running past you in the opposite direction.

It would have been really hard to do anything to take the thief out of his sr with your setup (2 rangers, 2 warriors) but if you had one of any other class, it would have been easy. I know the situation sucks for you and it would have taken some very strong play to counter that thief but it was doable. I agree that something should be done to decrease the effectiveness of d/p stealth but stealth itself isn’t nearly as bad as most people seem to think.

Put it this way. Exactly how much damage were you taking while the thief was spamming his stealth?? How many people could the thief have portaled in to the keep if you let him go? How much damage could he have done to anything if he was left to roam free (think about all the vets guarding everything and all the traffic that flows through sm)? And what could do more damage. You and your 3 friends doing something else or that 1 thief sitting inside the walls, alone, with no way to bring anyone else inside?

Another often underrated stratagem is to exploit their often oversized ego. Make baits, get them to make a choice between leaving for recovery OR finishing the job, you’d be surprised about the number of thieves choosing the latter option just to get completly wrecked when falling for it. Of course, it’s all psychology, and being an Engineer surely does help, but I’m sure that alot of other classes can eventually pull it off, the Guardian, the Warrior, the Mesmer, the Elementalist, and maybee… the Ranger.