I’ll be adapting by playing a different, undoubtedly better game.
Not immediately, no. I’ll probably try the DB spam/Evade build for a few days, until pressing 1 button in between dodges gets boring. Then I’ll do what ANet is clearly telling thieves to do, and go D/P, because it’s head and shoulders better than any of our other weaponsets post patch. Then I’ll get bored being pigeonholed into a single playstyle, say to myself “kitten these morons”, and go play something run by competent developers.
If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
this build got nerfed like crazy in the recent patch. is it even viable anymore? infiltrator return no longer stun breaks.
Well they made again some controversial changes as always.
On the bright side, I assume two type of builds for D/P
1. 0/30/0/20/20 for Might + Initiative regen build or
or allocating the traits and utilities for more defensive-sustain D/P style with Runes of Lyssa
2. 10/30/0/0/30 Might stacking build which might be going to be flavor of the month.
Either way 10 seconds of might instead of 5 is a huge advantage topping that up with reduced steal cool down.
I am not in game yet so I am just naively theory-crafting here.
Lyssa and BoonManica dont sound to me to be a good idea…
a Necro with Corrupt Boons will kill you with the press of 1 button…
True. However,
A. Every build has a counter.
B. Thieves are becoming more “team players”;
- Passing 5 boons to the team every 21 seconds
- Rezzing players – Popping up Last Refuge more frequently + Basilisk Venom (activates all boons) + Blind from signet.
C. With post-patch notes, you just need to change the way you start off a fight and not waste all these boons (i.e activating Basilisk Venom + D/P Combo)
I will be sticking with this for a month or so just to see how far I am able to push it for the sake of fun. Thank you for the criticism and I am always up for it.
d/p if played perfect will never lose to s/d…… and d/p has blinds for group play which is better than what sword does…..s/d doesnt do anything for group play other than being able to hit more than 1 target if they group up. p/d does the most for group play when running condi hp build.
S/D strips boon and splits attention – you either ignore the S/D thief teleporting around and stealing protection/stability/vigor/regen while doing solid DPS, or you attempt to engage, at which point the S/D thief teleports away/plays evasively effectively making that player waste his time. Bonus points if you become annoying enough to garner the attention of 2 or more players and waste their time.
D/P takes advantage of surprise and burst, S/D takes advantage of making players waste a disproportionate amount of resources attempting to deal with them.
i agree def but theres one thing you failed to mention….everything u said is in 2 v 2 or 1 v 1 or MAYBE 3 v 3. anythign larger and the aoe dmg/ccs/stuns own you espeically with that tiny bit of life with the high vulnerability squishiness. yes it works but if its 5 v 5 you are going to have an ele or necro or a hammer user etc. it will happen. now that we lost our stun break s/d is going to die unless you bring stealth as backup.
Would be nice if someone posted changes with S/D, preferably for TPvP.
I listened to Jumper discussing the patch notes on Blu’s stream. It sounded like his build was staying pretty much the same.
the stun break loss is killing the build. calling it now. 1 v 1 u can still kinda get by but anything too big you lose alot of mobility bc ur stun in a certain place. eles/warriors/guardians can all knock u down/back and mesmers pull/push too. so all these things really hurt when u lose your main stunbreak.
Would be nice if someone posted changes with S/D, preferably for TPvP.
I listened to Jumper discussing the patch notes on Blu’s stream. It sounded like his build was staying pretty much the same.
the stun break loss is killing the build. calling it now. 1 v 1 u can still kinda get by but anything too big you lose alot of mobility bc ur stun in a certain place. eles/warriors/guardians can all knock u down/back and mesmers pull/push too. so all these things really hurt when u lose your main stunbreak.
Shadow return is still usable while stunned. You can park it 1200 range away and use it to vacate the premises and wait out the stun in safety.
any reasons you moved away from it in particular? Ive never really went for D/P before, was having fun with my S/D pre patch, but good to hear jumper’s still using it.
any reasons you moved away from it in particular? Ive never really went for D/P before, was having fun with my S/D pre patch, but good to hear jumper’s still using it.
The problem will all might stacking builds (max 15-17 stacks of might with dodge + steal) has always been the following;
1.If you play with two signets, then you need a stun breaker so by using Shadow Step you end up replacing Last refuge.
2. With new condition builds and new conditions, it is not about DPS anymore as a Thief; i.e a good necromancer will strip off that 15-17 stacks of might immediately.
3. Initiative Regen for D/P is way better by investing 20 or 30 points on Shadow Arts
Overall, Might-stacking is just really too dangerous to invest with how things are.It used to be very viable a long time ago where you would easily out-dps a typical glass cannon D/P Thief from my perspective..
The problem right now is to make a D/P build that will be able to be effective vs i.e two Necromancers but at the same time taking advantage of the new steal cooldown reductions.
This is the most experimental I can get with D/P. The concept was to fine a way to maintain boons on you, remove conditions and apply as much as possible perma stealth without losing 30 points on Critical Strikes.
Overall, the problem with DP in terms of pushing it to the extreme for TPvP for me is that Trait of increasing your damage for overall 20% when below 50% HP.
Has the new weakness really changed things that drastically? Perhaps theres no answer yet and we’ll have to see how things flesh out.
But it seems to me that d/p and thief builds in general still suffer from the age old problem of needing to go full glass just to meet any form of viability in Tpvp.
Which, being something that Anet has literally admitted to, is kind of disappointing as I dont see how they addressed it with this patch. I dont see how the steal changes can address this.
My only hope is that it was indirectly addressed through other class changes where the meta is moving away from the necessity of burst (via weakness etc.) that you mentioned. But we can only speculate on that now and time will tell. Personally I don’t believe much has changed.
Has the new weakness really changed things that drastically? Perhaps theres no answer yet and we’ll have to see how things flesh out.
But it seems to me that d/p and thief builds in general still suffer from the age old problem of needing to go full glass just to meet any form of viability in Tpvp.
Which, being something that Anet has literally admitted to, is kind of disappointing as I dont see how they addressed it with this patch. I dont see how the steal changes can address this.
My only hope is that it was indirectly addressed through other class changes where the meta is moving away from the necessity of burst (via weakness etc.) that you mentioned. But we can only speculate on that now and time will tell. Personally I don’t believe much has changed.
I haven’t jumped on my S/D yet to comment. I can’t really comment on the two “new builds” with D/P at the moment because double necros or tripple necros in tournament matches so far is not a good feedback to evaluate until I am able to find one team composition that I am personally feeling comfortable not only playing as a Thief but also a D/P Thief.
So far, what some other thieves told me is that the new torment is not such a “big deal”.
Shadow return is still usable while stunned. You can park it 1200 range away and use it to vacate the premises and wait out the stun in safety.
In theory perhaps, in actual combat you’ll never get that range and what you get is insufficient. Waiting out doesn’t work so well as you’re still targeted and any skill that has slightly more then melee range will still hit.
Yesterday night I played a couple of tournaments with S/D. Regardless of whether it was a fresh air using D/P after patch straight away and enjoying the things that D/P is bringing with the new patch, I would advice most thieves to stick to S/D on tournaments until things settle down.
Double Necros or Necro+Engie are currently lethal combos in TPvP and it seems to me that until a new patch comes to tone things down, D/P is really suicidal. I would be probably using “Boon Slayer S/D” but I would have to talk with a couple more people to decided whether investing 30 on Trickery is more beneficial to the team (passing boons to the team every 21 seconds) or whether I should invest the ten points on critical strikes (20% damage when target is below 50% HP).
Just my 2cents of my experience playing both D/P and S/D yesterday for a couple of hours.
Shadow return is still usable while stunned. You can park it 1200 range away and use it to vacate the premises and wait out the stun in safety.
In theory perhaps, in actual combat you’ll never get that range and what you get is insufficient. Waiting out doesn’t work so well as you’re still targeted and any skill that has slightly more then melee range will still hit.
His plan is sound. It just means being more mindful and mobile. It won’t work with the results you’d want 100% of the time, but it is still a lot better than nothing if you choose not to pick up Shadowstep.
I really do not think that Arena intended to do it like that.
The reason is simple;
By being able to shadow step back/teleport (sword #2) while being stunned is still a stunbreaker regardless whether you are still stunned while teleported back.
Shadow return is still usable while stunned. You can park it 1200 range away and use it to vacate the premises and wait out the stun in safety.
In theory perhaps, in actual combat you’ll never get that range and what you get is insufficient. Waiting out doesn’t work so well as you’re still targeted and any skill that has slightly more then melee range will still hit.
His plan is sound. It just means being more mindful and mobile. It won’t work with the results you’d want 100% of the time, but it is still a lot better than nothing if you choose not to pick up Shadowstep.
No, it isn’t ’sound’’ enough to not bring stunbreakers in your utilities. You can’t ‘park’ shadow return at 1200 range while in combat, it just doesn’t work with Infiltrator’s Strike on a 600 range. If you IS 600 units and run another 600, you loose the immobile on IS, so now you’ve lost both the stun breaker ánd the immobilize. Without the stunbreaker on shadow return you have to bring utilities for it, and if you do, you might as well go D/D and get more bang on the ‘bugs’.
I really do not think that Arena intended to do it like that.
The reason is simple;
By being able to shadow step back/teleport (sword #2) while being stunned is still a stunbreaker regardless whether you are still stunned while teleported back.
I believe there are other skills that already functioned this way and have remained, it may be Anets way of giving a cushion to the nerf— and I doubt it will be changed (tho never rule it out knowing Anet)
Its still a pretty big nerf to what was a very powerful skill, and having it this way will still keep you in a bad spot against almost every class.
This is my current S/D set for pvp.
This set gives higher focus on steal, and works best against classes relying on boons.
High dmg % achieved by maintaining high initiatives, in other words, relying more on auto-atk than skill spamming.
Basic rotation = infiltrator strike, 3 auto atk, shadow return, repeat.
Taking Thieves’ guild over basilisk because it is more a high dmg sustain build than a burst one.
Any thoughts on S/P builds? Are they just not viable at all with the current condi-heavy meta? I would trade FS/LS for head shot black powder any day.
My personal opinion post-patch is still that D/P is suicidal. I believe I can justify that if you require me to do so.
S/D builds are still viable. Not in the sense of pre-patch but in the sense that with Shadow Trap you are able to do great decaps and force the enemy team to send sometimes even two people to take care of you.
Any thoughts on S/P builds? Are they just not viable at all with the current condi-heavy meta? I would trade FS/LS for head shot black powder any day.
My personal opinion post-patch is still that D/P is suicidal. I believe I can justify that if you require me to do so.
S/D builds are still viable. Not in the sense of pre-patch but in the sense that with Shadow Trap you are able to do great decaps and force the enemy team to send sometimes even two people to take care of you.
Any thoughts on S/P builds? Are they just not viable at all with the current condi-heavy meta? I would trade FS/LS for head shot black powder any day.
My personal opinion post-patch is still that D/P is suicidal. I believe I can justify that if you require me to do so.
S/D builds are still viable. Not in the sense of pre-patch but in the sense that with Shadow Trap you are able to do great decaps and force the enemy team to send sometimes even two people to take care of you.
what do u mean by decaps?
Decaping the enemy’s close point as many times as possible.
Any thoughts on S/P builds? Are they just not viable at all with the current condi-heavy meta? I would trade FS/LS for head shot black powder any day.
My personal opinion post-patch is still that D/P is suicidal. I believe I can justify that if you require me to do so.
S/D builds are still viable. Not in the sense of pre-patch but in the sense that with Shadow Trap you are able to do great decaps and force the enemy team to send sometimes even two people to take care of you.
I was asking about S/P – seems like no one runs it – I’m assuming a big part of it is that it’s hard to land a full pistol whip? Still, sword 2,4,5 still make it seem pretty sexy to me.
Any thoughts on S/P builds? Are they just not viable at all with the current condi-heavy meta? I would trade FS/LS for head shot black powder any day.
My personal opinion post-patch is still that D/P is suicidal. I believe I can justify that if you require me to do so.
S/D builds are still viable. Not in the sense of pre-patch but in the sense that with Shadow Trap you are able to do great decaps and force the enemy team to send sometimes even two people to take care of you.
I was asking about S/P – seems like no one runs it – I’m assuming a big part of it is that it’s hard to land a full pistol whip? Still, sword 2,4,5 still make it seem pretty sexy to me.
Just posting it because maybe in the future it might be an option.
Q.Why runes of Lyssa?
A. Since you would never run out of initiative to perform “perma-stealth” or “perma-blind” and thus remove conditions you can use Withdraw to gain boon(s) or use it with your combo for mobility purposes (aggressive or defensive).
Lets say you are in mid fight and you can see an opening to the enemies close but you do not have shadow refuge on to get unnoticed. You can stealth, then rollbackwards switch to Shortbow, teleport to the enemy’s closepoint and decap.
Q.Why Shadow Step instead of Shadow Trap?
A.D/P is usually known for being in mid-close points most of the time. Thus Shadow Trap is more team-centric (tactical) where as Shadow Step is more class-centric. Sometimes you just want to go or reach a specific point in map. You do not have the option to change your mind after placing Shadow Trap in map.
Q.Hidden Killer or Executioner?
A.I believe that the more initiative regen means more backstabs so less need for autoattacks. .
-mind you steal w/ the capstone trait is 21.5 not 26.75 secs…. This build highly relies on the steal skillS (being both the initial shadowstep, stealth, fury might swiftness buffs, daze, rip 2 boons and get them AS WELL AS the stolen skill from the opponent).
-mind you steal w/ the capstone trait is 21.5 not 26.75 secs…. This build highly relies on the steal skillS (being both the initial shadowstep, stealth, fury might swiftness buffs, daze, rip 2 boons and get them AS WELL AS the stolen skill from the opponent).
Love IT!
RogueTigeR
drop sigil of earth for sigil of doom and idk but ur traits kill ur dmg like 50%. :P i like the idea and have tried a variation but i lost way too much dmg. seems very hard to play that traitline without going rampagers/carrion.
Concept is to deal with Necromancer(s) since CC is their weakness; getting immobilize + daze or blinded + daze.
Improvisation seems another trick in the book.
“Stealing recharges all skills of one type (venoms, signets, traps, tricks, or deceptions). Deal 10% more damage while wielding a bundle”.
This is a work in progress and by no means do I suggest any “viability”. They are both experimental like my other build was “10/30/0/0/30” until new patch showed up and brought some life into it.Maybe it might happen in the future as well.
For the people who would like to experiment more with that; my best guess would be to leave 30 on SA (Stealth + Daze, repeat – see examples of D/P with perma stealth) and put the other 30 on CS or Trickery line.
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