Guild Wars 2

Hi

I know there have been lots of posts about this, but it’s a really important issue so I will repost anyways. Recently there has been a “surge” of trapper thieves (in WVW) that somehow find pleasure in playing this horribly buggy build. This “trapper condi” build is definitely the unfortunate result of terrible skill/trait interactions that should not exist. I “don’t mind” thieves (or PU mesmers) (or trolls in general) running condi/dire mix, at least I can see them sometimes, which is nice. But this perma invis trapper build where you (as the victim) just walk around and suddenly you are immobilized on top of aoe condi and then die 3 seconds later to confus./bleeds/poison is NOT ONLY something that is “op” and shows a lack of skill, it’s also obviously the manifestation of misplaced skill interactions, and thus, a bug. This is why I’m urging everyone here to report players using trapper/invis builds as bugusers (if you ever manage to see them) (there should be a “mild bugusing” report button because this is still just a build after all). Also, if you see someone from your server using this build, please send them a mail with an ASCII picture of an erect phallus. Also write a short message about how you admire their creativity in build making and how you have to wear sunglasses when near them because they simply radiate pure skill.

In all honesty, I know it’s a game, everyone does what they want etc. etc., but it ruins the fun for everyone else when you actively use this build. Also, before some thief player from this subforum actually tries to defend this “amazingly hard to play build with many counters (?? like everyone walks around using a trapper condi thief counter build (basically only condi removal and try to run away ASAP) just because of those thief players..?)” saying “yeah but you have to use traps” and bla bla mobility and you have to “land the burst” and some other ridiculous pseudo arguments that only cover the small spectrum of “hypothetical issues” this build has that are nothing compared to what this build is actually capable of doing to any player in a normal, non- ideal wvw setting, consider being the non- thief player for a while. Just walking around with class X after creating a new build that you are eager to test in a nice duel against a skilled opponent, and suddenly you see a red circle and you cant move, 4 seconds later you are lying on the ground, and then, out of nowhere, a flag, a dolyak, a rainbow or whatever appears on your newly dead body.. It’s not fun and it’s something that is in the hand of thief players (atm).This is something that needs to be fixed ASAP… I understand nobody wants to see their class nerfed, just keep in mind that fixing buggy interactions =/= nerf.

You shouldn’t mix “bugged” with “badly designed”. And it’s not breaking any rules in any way, so reporting it is pointless. All it might do is get yourself banned for falsely reporting a ton of people.

Heres a nice quote from Gaile Gray: "If a player or a group of players is found to engage in false reporting, their own account could be in jeopardy of account suspension or termination. "

But I agree. This build isn’t fair in any way, and should be fixed.

Trapper condi application is so weak that clearing a few of the damaging conditions and having a break immobilize/blink skill is all that is needed to avoid additional application. I’ve been attacked by this build before and barely noticed it.

Recently one tried to kill me and I saw him run back into the nearby Tower (Langor) after he failed. If he had stayed around I would have offered him a more effective build to try.

WvW is harsh, it is unfair, you are outnumbered, and you will die. If I die when developing a new build I think about what I could do differently. In this case, if a build is dying to trapper condi then it is either (1) the build’s fault or (2) the players fault.

Trapper-condi, from what I understand at least, is not a hard build to play and it’s not a hard build to counter. “Running away” doesn’t mean running very far. Run 1,000 maybe 1,200 distance from where you are hit. That is hardly an unreasonable request in WvW.

If you don’t have anti-stealth abilities, consider a stealth trap if they are bothering you. Or prepare a gravity well or lightning field or other AoE knockdown and watch for the red circles of the black powder he is using to remain in stealth. Hit him where you know he has to be.

Finally, it’s not a bug. Nor is it a partial bug. It’s just an extreme bunker build that can only kill zerker builds, on a limited number of classes for that matter, whose players don’t know what is going on.

First off if you are dying to the build its your fault, you can literally walk away from them if you have a single condie cleanse…
Second the Devs at Anet wanted it this way it is design as intended

Direct quote of June 23rd 2015 patch notes:

Tripwire: This trap no longer deals strike damage, which would previously bring the thief out of stealth.
Needle Trap: This trap no longer deals minimal strike damage, which would previously bring the thief out of stealth.
./quote end

Trapper Runes have been part of the game since February 2014, also even without the runes thieves could still keep the stealth up long enough.

The traps apply negligible amounts of condies, again if you die to them that is your fault, nothing op about it.

Needle Trap
Immobilize (3s): Unable to move.
Poison (10s): 335 Damage, -33% Healing Effectiveness
3 Bleeding (10s): 660 Damage

Trip Wire
Crippled (5s): -50% Movement Speed
Knockdown Knockdown: 3s
Number of Targets: 5
Unblockable Unblockable

The confusion is from steal on a 20sec CD and you get vulnerability from traps due to a trait, again negligible amount of damaging condies and most likely your own inability to run a proper WvW build, in any pvp mode condie cleanse is needed

saerni.2584:

Trapper condi application is so weak that clearing a few of the damaging conditions and having a break immobilize/blink skill is all that is needed to avoid additional application. I’ve been attacked by this build before and barely noticed it.

Recently one tried to kill me and I saw him run back into the nearby Tower (Langor) after he failed. If he had stayed around I would have offered him a more effective build to try.

WvW is harsh, it is unfair, you are outnumbered, and you will die. If I die when developing a new build I think about what I could do differently. In this case, if a build is dying to trapper condi then it is either (1) the build’s fault or (2) the players fault.

Trapper-condi, from what I understand at least, is not a hard build to play and it’s not a hard build to counter. “Running away” doesn’t mean running very far. Run 1,000 maybe 1,200 distance from where you are hit. That is hardly an unreasonable request in WvW.

If you don’t have anti-stealth abilities, consider a stealth trap if they are bothering you. Or prepare a gravity well or lightning field or other AoE knockdown and watch for the red circles of the black powder he is using to remain in stealth. Hit him where you know he has to be.

Finally, it’s not a bug. Nor is it a partial bug. It’s just an extreme bunker build that can only kill zerker builds, on a limited number of classes for that matter, whose players don’t know what is going on.

A build that has pretty much no other viable “counters” other than running away, or using a consumable that costs money and 10 supply, or randomly throwing skills around (which in the end achieves nothing because of the dire gear), is pretty broken and unfair.

It doesn’t even matter if it can’t kill you. A build that can kill SOMETHING while being invisible and almost immortal for the whole fight, is broken, and should not exist.

I’m saying it’s not “running away” to move 1000 distance. If you can’t do that it’s a build problem.

And you aren’t throwing skills randomly. There are red circles he needs to jump through repeatedly to get that stealth. Hit him with a stun and block him from staying invisible. Or hit his landing zone with an AoE. He is hardly immortal.

Or stand in the red circle so he hits you and reveals himself omg he’s Condi and hits like a wet noodle

Only one trap delivers conditions. If people die to this trap they have issues with their own gameplay. Said trap delivers 3 bleed stacks and one poison stack and the trap on a 30 second cooldown.

In order to deliver the confusion a thief traits for BA and hidden thief. This has nothing to do with trapper runes or traps in any way shape or form. The amount of confusion delivers is 5 stacks and even added to the needle trap can not kill anyone who is aware of his or her surroundings. A Mesmer can deliver more confusion stacks while stealthed via his clones being shattered.

In order to maintain stealth DP is used for over 80 percent of the stealth , again having little to do with trappers. A person using D?P can be spotted by the smoke field they generate.

Caltrops and uncatchable are not traps and leave a distictive red circle on the map giving you a very clear idea where the theif is and which area to avoid. Using an immobile in conjunction with Caltrops is no more an issue then is any other class that uses an Immob to lock you into AOE. These have always allowed a user to remain stealthed BY design.

The fact the thief in question is stealthed does not prevent you from dodging, using a condition cleanse, Porting, using an immob break, using a stun break, blocking, using an Invuln or simply moving about in an unpredictable fashion so the thief has issues as to where to place his next needle trap. This is not just “randomly using skills”. It is countering the build you complain about using skills available to you just as skills are used to counter people you can see.

This build is a nuisance build , nothing more.

I strongly agree that rune of the trapper is bugged — it should be affected by Meld with Shadows — 2s stealth is just too short.

OP (and anyone else who has issues with this build), let me tell you how to deal with it.

1) Take a stun or immob break (if you don’t already have one what are you doing in PvP/WvW)

2) Don’t stand in caltrops

3) Do stand in black powder, or use a reveal skill or WvW stealth trap

4) Take at least some condi clear, you don’t need much (again, if you don’t already have this what are you doing in PvP/WvW)

Combining these tips invalidates the efforts of the thief, and should require no build changes since you should already have a stun break and condi clear, and anyone can stand in the right place to avoid caltrops or deny stealth by standing in black powder. If you want easy mode, grab a WvW stealth trap, but it isn’t necessary.

I understand why people get frustrated with this build, but it’s so easy to counter with literally any class and decent build if you know what to do.

Josa.5067:

A build that has pretty much no other viable “counters” other than running away, or using a consumable that costs money and 10 supply, or randomly throwing skills around (which in the end achieves nothing because of the dire gear), is pretty broken and unfair.

Well except for Engis, Scrappers and Heralds which own this build… and to a lessor degree DH. Rangers and other Thieves running knockdown traps park this build. Oh and any face roll Bunker Tempest can basically spam the build to death.

Every build isn’t meant to be effective against every other build. Rock, paper, scissors is in full effect here. There are a dozen plus builds that dispatch this build with ease. Either be the rock to their scissor or don’t engage. Just a thought but you shouldn’t hang in against a build designed to troll then come to the forums when you allow it to troll you.

Straegen.2938:

Josa.5067:

A build that has pretty much no other viable “counters” other than running away, or using a consumable that costs money and 10 supply, or randomly throwing skills around (which in the end achieves nothing because of the dire gear), is pretty broken and unfair.

Well except for Engis, Scrappers and Heralds which own this build… and to a lessor degree DH. Rangers and other Thieves running knockdown traps park this build. Oh and any face roll Bunker Tempest can basically spam the build to death.

Every build isn’t meant to be effective against every other build. Rock, paper, scissors is in full effect here. There are a dozen plus builds that dispatch this build with ease. Either be the rock to their scissor or don’t engage. Just a thought but you shouldn’t hang in against a build designed to troll then come to the forums when you allow it to troll you.

Except none of these builds are actually able to kill the thief, if the thief is actually good enough to do something other than camp in stealth. I guess that is a little unlikely though, since all the actually good thieves I know hate playing this build, because it is indeed very boring to play, and they can still kill people on builds that are alot more fun to play, and play against.

The reveals from these classes last only a few seconds, and a thief with dire gear can still dodge and avoid the damage the incoming damage during that time (assuming the thief isn’t complete garbage), and stealth again before they are even close to dying.

The only thing most classes can do against this build is run away without even trying to fight it. That doesn’t sound like a build that is healthy for the game.

I have played this build. I know what it can do. And I can remember only ONE time I actually lost a fight with it (I don’t count the enemy getting away as a loss.), and that was only because I played badly. I play all the classes and alot of different builds, but none of them come even close to the risk/reward ratio of this build. There is almost 0 risk with this build, and it can still get the rewards. It’s not balanced.

Josa it sounds like you lack any real knowledge on how to counter this troll build a 6 second reveal on a 20 sec CD will kill this on a build that has it pre built in can kill it easily for one example on top of being able to disrupt the stealth without wasting a CD or any consumable, just because you have played a lot of classes and builds doesn’t mean you know how to play them well, I have kill a few of these thieves on my D/P build as well as my S/D build its not hard and I have no access to forcing reveal besides standing in BP

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Josa it sounds like you lack any real knowledge on how to counter this troll build a 6 second reveal on a 20 sec CD will kill this on a build that has it pre built in can kill it easily for one example on top of being able to disrupt the stealth without wasting a CD or any consumable, just because you have played a lot of classes and builds doesn’t mean you know how to play them well, I have kill a few of these thieves on my D/P build as well as my S/D build its not hard and I have no access to forcing reveal besides standing in BP

Just how do you kill it exactly? You could post a video or something, since you seem to be able to do it pretty reliably, and it’s not hard to find someone that plays this build.

It could actually help alot of people if you posted a video, since theres quite alot of people complaining about this build.

As far as im aware, even a regular thief won’t die to a 6 second reveal all the time, if they are good enough. Now add in the vitality and toughness from the dire gear. How are you supposed to kill it?

I’ve never really recorded gameplay but I will try and give it a try tonight and upload, no promises been trying to break through diamond to legendary these last few nights.

Josa.5067:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Josa it sounds like you lack any real knowledge on how to counter this troll build a 6 second reveal on a 20 sec CD will kill this on a build that has it pre built in can kill it easily for one example on top of being able to disrupt the stealth without wasting a CD or any consumable, just because you have played a lot of classes and builds doesn’t mean you know how to play them well, I have kill a few of these thieves on my D/P build as well as my S/D build its not hard and I have no access to forcing reveal besides standing in BP

Just how do you kill it exactly? You could post a video or something, since you seem to be able to do it pretty reliably, and it’s not hard to find someone that plays this build.

It could actually help alot of people if you posted a video, since theres quite alot of people complaining about this build.

As far as im aware, even a regular thief won’t die to a 6 second reveal all the time, if they are good enough. Now add in the vitality and toughness from the dire gear. How are you supposed to kill it?

I run a D/P Trapper, in fact I ran it last night. Killed a mesmer 3 times (yes she’s angry for dying and was hunting me down), a Ranger and a Thief. The one that shut me down was a Condi Herald, you know why? This build has no anti-condition other than embrace, but once denied stealth, even with Dire set, the build is toast. So the notion that this build is unkillable is non-factual.

A lot of people make the same mistake when facing a trapper is that they are not paying attention to the kind of conditions they have. Using skills or attacking while confused is usually what kills them. Also roaming alone with a Berserker gear will kill you no matter what build the other person have.

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Josa it sounds like you lack any real knowledge on how to counter this troll build a 6 second reveal on a 20 sec CD will kill this on a build that has it pre built in can kill it easily for one example on top of being able to disrupt the stealth without wasting a CD or any consumable, just because you have played a lot of classes and builds doesn’t mean you know how to play them well, I have kill a few of these thieves on my D/P build as well as my S/D build its not hard and I have no access to forcing reveal besides standing in BP

Just how do you kill it exactly? You could post a video or something, since you seem to be able to do it pretty reliably, and it’s not hard to find someone that plays this build.

It could actually help alot of people if you posted a video, since theres quite alot of people complaining about this build.

As far as im aware, even a regular thief won’t die to a 6 second reveal all the time, if they are good enough. Now add in the vitality and toughness from the dire gear. How are you supposed to kill it?

I run a D/P Trapper, in fact I ran it last night. Killed a mesmer 3 times (yes she’s angry for dying and was hunting me down), a Ranger and a Thief. The one that shut me down was a Condi Herald, you know why? This build has no anti-condition other than embrace, but once denied stealth, even with Dire set, the build is toast. So the notion that this build is unkillable is non-factual.

A lot of people make the same mistake when facing a trapper is that they are not paying attention to the kind of conditions they have. Using skills or attacking while confused is usually what kills them. Also roaming alone with a Berserker gear will kill you no matter what build the other person have.

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

I can run the build just fine, while carrying atleast Shadowstep for some condi cleanses.

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.

Also, I never said that absolutely nothing can kill the build. There just are very few things that can do it (If the thief is playing correctly).

Josa.5067:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Josa it sounds like you lack any real knowledge on how to counter this troll build a 6 second reveal on a 20 sec CD will kill this on a build that has it pre built in can kill it easily for one example on top of being able to disrupt the stealth without wasting a CD or any consumable, just because you have played a lot of classes and builds doesn’t mean you know how to play them well, I have kill a few of these thieves on my D/P build as well as my S/D build its not hard and I have no access to forcing reveal besides standing in BP

Just how do you kill it exactly? You could post a video or something, since you seem to be able to do it pretty reliably, and it’s not hard to find someone that plays this build.

It could actually help alot of people if you posted a video, since theres quite alot of people complaining about this build.

As far as im aware, even a regular thief won’t die to a 6 second reveal all the time, if they are good enough. Now add in the vitality and toughness from the dire gear. How are you supposed to kill it?

I run a D/P Trapper, in fact I ran it last night. Killed a mesmer 3 times (yes she’s angry for dying and was hunting me down), a Ranger and a Thief. The one that shut me down was a Condi Herald, you know why? This build has no anti-condition other than embrace, but once denied stealth, even with Dire set, the build is toast. So the notion that this build is unkillable is non-factual.

A lot of people make the same mistake when facing a trapper is that they are not paying attention to the kind of conditions they have. Using skills or attacking while confused is usually what kills them. Also roaming alone with a Berserker gear will kill you no matter what build the other person have.

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

I can run the build just fine, while carrying atleast Shadowstep for some condi cleanses.

Then that’s not a perma-stealth trapper build, but a variant of it. The full build requires Needle, Trip and Shadow to get a large stack of might and longer stealth time. Switching any of these skills no longer qualify the build as perma-stealth trapper.

I run a variant of this using P/P and 2 traps since I won’t need all three and I can stack might with Unload, instead I bring a venom. Even then, I can’t afford to switch something out for a condition cleanse.

What you’re suggesting is a weak version of the build relying on a 50sec cooldown skill to remove conditions with a very low stealth uptime.

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.

I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Josa it sounds like you lack any real knowledge on how to counter this troll build a 6 second reveal on a 20 sec CD will kill this on a build that has it pre built in can kill it easily for one example on top of being able to disrupt the stealth without wasting a CD or any consumable, just because you have played a lot of classes and builds doesn’t mean you know how to play them well, I have kill a few of these thieves on my D/P build as well as my S/D build its not hard and I have no access to forcing reveal besides standing in BP

Just how do you kill it exactly? You could post a video or something, since you seem to be able to do it pretty reliably, and it’s not hard to find someone that plays this build.

It could actually help alot of people if you posted a video, since theres quite alot of people complaining about this build.

As far as im aware, even a regular thief won’t die to a 6 second reveal all the time, if they are good enough. Now add in the vitality and toughness from the dire gear. How are you supposed to kill it?

I run a D/P Trapper, in fact I ran it last night. Killed a mesmer 3 times (yes she’s angry for dying and was hunting me down), a Ranger and a Thief. The one that shut me down was a Condi Herald, you know why? This build has no anti-condition other than embrace, but once denied stealth, even with Dire set, the build is toast. So the notion that this build is unkillable is non-factual.

A lot of people make the same mistake when facing a trapper is that they are not paying attention to the kind of conditions they have. Using skills or attacking while confused is usually what kills them. Also roaming alone with a Berserker gear will kill you no matter what build the other person have.

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

I can run the build just fine, while carrying atleast Shadowstep for some condi cleanses.

Then that’s not a perma-stealth trapper build, but a variant of it. The full build requires Needle, Trip and Shadow to get a large stack of might and longer stealth time. Switching any of these skills no longer qualify the build as perma-stealth trapper.

Well… My build has traps and permanent stealth. Sounds like a permastealth trapper to me, even though it has Shadowstep.

Im only running Needle Trap and Shadow Trap. Actually im just going to take a picture… Maybe even a video to show that it does indeed stealth forever.

Traits and stuff…

You keep claiming if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief you won’t kill them, all classes can reveal the thief stand in the BP since you can see it you don’t need a skill to cause revealed that just makes it a lot easier to kil them

BlaqueFyre.5678:

You keep claiming if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief you won’t kill them, all classes can reveal the thief stand in the BP since you can see it you don’t need a skill to cause revealed that just makes it a lot easier to kil them

The thief can blackpowder a bit further away from the fight, since they aren’t doing any direct damage anyway. Unless you have a blink or something, you aren’t going to reach the blackpowder before the thief has leaped in it atleast a few times.

And most classes have some for of leap or teleport.

Josa.5067:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Josa it sounds like you lack any real knowledge on how to counter this troll build a 6 second reveal on a 20 sec CD will kill this on a build that has it pre built in can kill it easily for one example on top of being able to disrupt the stealth without wasting a CD or any consumable, just because you have played a lot of classes and builds doesn’t mean you know how to play them well, I have kill a few of these thieves on my D/P build as well as my S/D build its not hard and I have no access to forcing reveal besides standing in BP

Just how do you kill it exactly? You could post a video or something, since you seem to be able to do it pretty reliably, and it’s not hard to find someone that plays this build.

It could actually help alot of people if you posted a video, since theres quite alot of people complaining about this build.

As far as im aware, even a regular thief won’t die to a 6 second reveal all the time, if they are good enough. Now add in the vitality and toughness from the dire gear. How are you supposed to kill it?

I run a D/P Trapper, in fact I ran it last night. Killed a mesmer 3 times (yes she’s angry for dying and was hunting me down), a Ranger and a Thief. The one that shut me down was a Condi Herald, you know why? This build has no anti-condition other than embrace, but once denied stealth, even with Dire set, the build is toast. So the notion that this build is unkillable is non-factual.

A lot of people make the same mistake when facing a trapper is that they are not paying attention to the kind of conditions they have. Using skills or attacking while confused is usually what kills them. Also roaming alone with a Berserker gear will kill you no matter what build the other person have.

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

I can run the build just fine, while carrying atleast Shadowstep for some condi cleanses.

Then that’s not a perma-stealth trapper build, but a variant of it. The full build requires Needle, Trip and Shadow to get a large stack of might and longer stealth time. Switching any of these skills no longer qualify the build as perma-stealth trapper.

Well… My build has traps and permanent stealth. Sounds like a permastealth trapper to me, even though it has Shadowstep.

Im only running Needle Trap and Shadow Trap. Actually im just going to take a picture… Maybe even a video to show that it does indeed stealth forever.

Traits and stuff…

I can use Scavenger rune, Shadow Refuge plus Shadow trap but that won’t make the build the perma-stealth trapper that everyone is complaining about.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

And most classes have some for of leap or teleport.

Even if they do, how will you kill the thief in 3 seconds?

That teleport will be on atleast a 30 second cooldown afterwards, unless you are a thief, so you won’t be able to do it again in a while.

Josa.5067:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

And most classes have some for of leap or teleport.

Even if they do, how will you kill the thief in 3 seconds?

That teleport will be on atleast a 30 second cooldown afterwards, unless you are a thief, so you won’t be able to do it again in a while.

Withdraw + Vault…see comments above.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Josa it sounds like you lack any real knowledge on how to counter this troll build a 6 second reveal on a 20 sec CD will kill this on a build that has it pre built in can kill it easily for one example on top of being able to disrupt the stealth without wasting a CD or any consumable, just because you have played a lot of classes and builds doesn’t mean you know how to play them well, I have kill a few of these thieves on my D/P build as well as my S/D build its not hard and I have no access to forcing reveal besides standing in BP

Just how do you kill it exactly? You could post a video or something, since you seem to be able to do it pretty reliably, and it’s not hard to find someone that plays this build.

It could actually help alot of people if you posted a video, since theres quite alot of people complaining about this build.

As far as im aware, even a regular thief won’t die to a 6 second reveal all the time, if they are good enough. Now add in the vitality and toughness from the dire gear. How are you supposed to kill it?

I run a D/P Trapper, in fact I ran it last night. Killed a mesmer 3 times (yes she’s angry for dying and was hunting me down), a Ranger and a Thief. The one that shut me down was a Condi Herald, you know why? This build has no anti-condition other than embrace, but once denied stealth, even with Dire set, the build is toast. So the notion that this build is unkillable is non-factual.

A lot of people make the same mistake when facing a trapper is that they are not paying attention to the kind of conditions they have. Using skills or attacking while confused is usually what kills them. Also roaming alone with a Berserker gear will kill you no matter what build the other person have.

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

I can run the build just fine, while carrying atleast Shadowstep for some condi cleanses.

Then that’s not a perma-stealth trapper build, but a variant of it. The full build requires Needle, Trip and Shadow to get a large stack of might and longer stealth time. Switching any of these skills no longer qualify the build as perma-stealth trapper.

Well… My build has traps and permanent stealth. Sounds like a permastealth trapper to me, even though it has Shadowstep.

Im only running Needle Trap and Shadow Trap. Actually im just going to take a picture… Maybe even a video to show that it does indeed stealth forever.

Traits and stuff…

Then that’s not a perma-stealth trapper build, but a variant of it. The full build requires Needle, Trip and Shadow to get a large stack of might and longer stealth time. Switching any of these skills no longer qualify the build as perma-stealth trapper.

Does this not look like a permanent stealth build that uses traps…?
(Do note that this was in the PVP lobby, so I couldn’t use dire/trailblazer gear.)

And I honestly don’t believe that you can kill a trapper thief by using Vault on them. I think you are forgetting that the thief doesn’t need to spend all their dodges for caltrops. They can actually save some of them so they can use the dodges to actually dodge attacks.

The damage you were doing against that golem (although it is the biggest HP one) is super low.

saerni.2584:

The damage you were doing against that golem (although it is the biggest HP one) is super low.

This is the PvP lobby. I couldn’t use food or my actual gear. My condition damage stat is about 800 lower than it would be in WvW.

And the video wasn’t about the damage. It was to show that the build can permanently stealth, even while having Shadowstep, since someone commented above that my build has a low stealth uptime.

Anyway, I think you are all understanding me wrong. I don’t have issues surviving against this build. What I do have an issue with is that it can still kill SOME people, while being invisible for the whole time, without even putting much effort into it, and basically not putting themselves in any kind of danger.

I would gladly accept damage and other buffs to the traps, if they ended up revealing the thief in the process. All I want is more counterplay. An actual chance to kill the thief. Right now, if the thief knows how to dodge, you aren’t going to kill the thief during the 5-6 second reveals (that not all classes have), unless you do a massive condi bomb on them, and they aren’t running condi cleanses.

Why do you think thief gets revealed when they cause direct damage? Because it’s not healthy for the game when players get killed by things they cannot ever see, even if they are running a glassy build.

Im done arguing about this on the thief forums though. It’s pretty clear that everyone is heavily biased in some way. (Including me.)
I might reply again once someone posts a video guide on how to reliably kill this build.

One more time, the issue with the build is not traps or trappers runes. The bulk of the stealth comes from dp NOT traps.

I can build with torment runes. I can use an Asura using hidden thief, caltrops and or Shadow Refuge. I can trait BA and use Pain Inverter.

I can use HIS as the heal with lower deception cooled down. This will get me access to the ability to stack 8 confusion , get the bleeds off caltrops and 2 torment on every heal.

I could maintain stealth simply with a combo of SR/DP using smoke field and HS and HIS. No traps no trapper runes.

Like the trappers version I would find it pretty hard to kill anyone remotely aware of his or her surroundings and how to play but those players would not see me.

Josa.5067:

And I honestly don’t believe that you can kill a trapper thief by using Vault on them. I think you are forgetting that the thief doesn’t need to spend all their dodges for caltrops. They can actually save some of them so they can use the dodges to actually dodge attacks.

Then they’re not doing anything to me if they choose to save their dodges. Either way, my point being is that with my Soldier/Valk gear, I had a fighting chance when you said there’s none. You’re going off to a different line of conversation instead of following the one you’ve started.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

Josa.5067:

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.

Do you follow now?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

And I honestly don’t believe that you can kill a trapper thief by using Vault on them. I think you are forgetting that the thief doesn’t need to spend all their dodges for caltrops. They can actually save some of them so they can use the dodges to actually dodge attacks.

Then they’re not doing anything to me if they choose to save their dodges. Either way, my point being is that with my Soldier/Valk gear, I had a fighting chance when you said there’s none. You’re going off to a different line of conversation instead of following the one you’ve started.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

Josa.5067:

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.

Do you follow now?

Okay fine, one last reply.

There is a difference between fighting and not dying.

You aren’t putting the trapper thief if any real danger, so even if you consider it a fight, from the trapper thieves perspective, you aren’t a threat at all. What kind of a fight is that?

The trapper thief most likely has 20k hp and 3k armor. Even if you landed a vault on them with your soldier/valkyrie gear, it wouldn’t do enough damage to win the fight.

As I said before. You aren’t fighting the thief, you are simply buying yourself more time. (In this case indefinitely.)

All this time I have been asking for a way to KILL the trapper thief reliably. I know you can survive against it, but how do you KILL it reliably? And before someone comes in and says that “We have given you a ton of ways to kill it already!”, I have already pointed out in the previous comments why the ways you have given me aren’t reliable ways to kill the thief.

So far there has been only 1 reliable way to kill it, which was a condi bomb combined with a reveal, and even that won’t be really reliable if the thief is carrying Shadowstep, which I proved that they can have.

Josa.5067:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

And I honestly don’t believe that you can kill a trapper thief by using Vault on them. I think you are forgetting that the thief doesn’t need to spend all their dodges for caltrops. They can actually save some of them so they can use the dodges to actually dodge attacks.

Then they’re not doing anything to me if they choose to save their dodges. Either way, my point being is that with my Soldier/Valk gear, I had a fighting chance when you said there’s none. You’re going off to a different line of conversation instead of following the one you’ve started.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

Josa.5067:

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.

Do you follow now?

Okay fine, one last reply.

There is a difference between fighting and not dying.

You aren’t putting the trapper thief if any real danger, so even if you consider it a fight, from the trapper thieves perspective, you aren’t a threat at all. What kind of a fight is that?

If that is the case, then from my perspective the trapper is not a threat either. So I guess we agree that it wasn’t a fight to begin with. Which makes your statement false.

Josa.5067:

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance...

And if you change your mind (again) that it was a fight after all, then my argument stands unrefuted.

The trapper thief most likely has 20k hp and 3k armor. Even if you landed a vault on them with your soldier/valkyrie gear, it wouldn’t do enough damage to win the fight.

How is it not a win if I didn’t lose?

I’m on the defense when fighting a perma-stealth trapper, thus if the attacker failed to break my defenses, they lose, I win.

As I said before. You aren’t fighting the thief, you are simply buying yourself more time. (In this case indefinitely.)

Meh. If you’re playing in WvW, you should have all the time in the world, otherwise, you’re in a wrong place. I can dance with the Thief all day. Vault cost is only 5 initiatives which replenish in 5 seconds. Withdraw recharges every 15 seconds. Traps’ fastest cooldown is 24 seconds. That’s a lot of down time for the trapper. That’s hardly buying myself time.

All this time I have been asking for a way to KILL the trapper thief reliably. I know you can survive against it, but how do you KILL it reliably? And before someone comes in and says that “We have given you a ton of ways to kill it already!”, I have already pointed out in the previous comments why the ways you have given me aren’t reliable ways to kill the thief.

Didn’t you already answered that question yourself?

Josa.5067:

…using a consumable that costs money and 10 supply…

So why are you still insisting on the answer?

So far there has been only 1 reliable way to kill it, which was a condi bomb combined with a reveal, and even that won’t be really reliable if the thief is carrying Shadowstep, which I proved that they can have.

lol at the self-contradiction. For Grenth’s sake, make up your mind.

Trapper thieves tend to run low on init because of stealthing and most if not all their utilities are tied to offense which doesn’t leave a lot of room for escape when they get revealed. Dire isn’t much protection from anything with CC, heavy spike or condi (basically all the decent roamers these days).

Given the MANY ways I have been killed, I have never been dropped by this build. It is an incredibly weak build in dueling and its hybrid condi variants are far more dangerous.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

And I honestly don’t believe that you can kill a trapper thief by using Vault on them. I think you are forgetting that the thief doesn’t need to spend all their dodges for caltrops. They can actually save some of them so they can use the dodges to actually dodge attacks.

Then they’re not doing anything to me if they choose to save their dodges. Either way, my point being is that with my Soldier/Valk gear, I had a fighting chance when you said there’s none. You’re going off to a different line of conversation instead of following the one you’ve started.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

Josa.5067:

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.

Do you follow now?

Okay fine, one last reply.

There is a difference between fighting and not dying.

You aren’t putting the trapper thief if any real danger, so even if you consider it a fight, from the trapper thieves perspective, you aren’t a threat at all. What kind of a fight is that?

If that is the case, then from my perspective the trapper is not a threat either. So I guess we agree that it wasn’t a fight to begin with. Which makes your statement false.

Josa.5067:

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance...

And if you change your mind (again) that it was a fight after all, then my argument stands unrefuted.

The trapper thief most likely has 20k hp and 3k armor. Even if you landed a vault on them with your soldier/valkyrie gear, it wouldn’t do enough damage to win the fight.

How is it not a win if I didn’t lose?

I’m on the defense when fighting a perma-stealth trapper, thus if the attacker failed to break my defenses, they lose, I win.

As I said before. You aren’t fighting the thief, you are simply buying yourself more time. (In this case indefinitely.)

Meh. If you’re playing in WvW, you should have all the time in the world, otherwise, you’re in a wrong place. I can dance with the Thief all day. Vault cost is only 5 initiatives which replenish in 5 seconds. Withdraw recharges every 15 seconds. Traps’ fastest cooldown is 24 seconds. That’s a lot of down time for the trapper. That’s hardly buying myself time.

All this time I have been asking for a way to KILL the trapper thief reliably. I know you can survive against it, but how do you KILL it reliably? And before someone comes in and says that “We have given you a ton of ways to kill it already!”, I have already pointed out in the previous comments why the ways you have given me aren’t reliable ways to kill the thief.

Didn’t you already answered that question yourself?

Josa.5067:

…using a consumable that costs money and 10 supply…

So why are you still insisting on the answer?

So far there has been only 1 reliable way to kill it, which was a condi bomb combined with a reveal, and even that won’t be really reliable if the thief is carrying Shadowstep, which I proved that they can have.

lol at the self-contradiction. For Grenth’s sake, make up your mind.

Are you getting frustrated? It almost seems like you are trying to insult me, by focusing on me contradicting myself, instead of even trying to provide meaningful advice. I never said that you were fighting the thief. I was saying that you indeed weren’t fighting the thief, you were simply not dying.

Also, you don’t necessarily win, if you don’t lose. Have you ever heard of a draw?

From that reply, it seems that you are agreeing with me that the only “reliable” way to kill the thief is with the Stealth Disruptor Trap, which costs money and 10 supply. I believe that there should not be a build that can only be reliably defeated by using a consumable.

I suggest that you stop replying to this thread, if you can’t come up with any more actual advice.

Straegen.2938:

Trapper thieves tend to run low on init because of stealthing and most if not all their utilities are tied to offense which doesn’t leave a lot of room for escape when they get revealed. Dire isn’t much protection from anything with CC, heavy spike or condi (basically all the decent roamers these days).

Given the MANY ways I have been killed, I have never been dropped by this build. It is an incredibly weak build in dueling and its hybrid condi variants are far more dangerous.

The problem here is that the thief doesn’t get revealed, if they play well. And they CAN run stunbreaks/condicleanse, if they wan’t to, even if it does take their already low damage even lower.

The problem with the build is that it can still do damage to kill some things, while being invisible, and running tanky stats. I just don’t think that an invisible thing should be doing damage that is enough to kill another player, no matter what build the player is running.

Josa.5067:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

And I honestly don’t believe that you can kill a trapper thief by using Vault on them. I think you are forgetting that the thief doesn’t need to spend all their dodges for caltrops. They can actually save some of them so they can use the dodges to actually dodge attacks.

Then they’re not doing anything to me if they choose to save their dodges. Either way, my point being is that with my Soldier/Valk gear, I had a fighting chance when you said there’s none. You’re going off to a different line of conversation instead of following the one you’ve started.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

Josa.5067:

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.

Do you follow now?

Okay fine, one last reply.

There is a difference between fighting and not dying.

You aren’t putting the trapper thief if any real danger, so even if you consider it a fight, from the trapper thieves perspective, you aren’t a threat at all. What kind of a fight is that?

If that is the case, then from my perspective the trapper is not a threat either. So I guess we agree that it wasn’t a fight to begin with. Which makes your statement false.

Josa.5067:

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance...

And if you change your mind (again) that it was a fight after all, then my argument stands unrefuted.

The trapper thief most likely has 20k hp and 3k armor. Even if you landed a vault on them with your soldier/valkyrie gear, it wouldn’t do enough damage to win the fight.

How is it not a win if I didn’t lose?

I’m on the defense when fighting a perma-stealth trapper, thus if the attacker failed to break my defenses, they lose, I win.

As I said before. You aren’t fighting the thief, you are simply buying yourself more time. (In this case indefinitely.)

Meh. If you’re playing in WvW, you should have all the time in the world, otherwise, you’re in a wrong place. I can dance with the Thief all day. Vault cost is only 5 initiatives which replenish in 5 seconds. Withdraw recharges every 15 seconds. Traps’ fastest cooldown is 24 seconds. That’s a lot of down time for the trapper. That’s hardly buying myself time.

All this time I have been asking for a way to KILL the trapper thief reliably. I know you can survive against it, but how do you KILL it reliably? And before someone comes in and says that “We have given you a ton of ways to kill it already!”, I have already pointed out in the previous comments why the ways you have given me aren’t reliable ways to kill the thief.

Didn’t you already answered that question yourself?

Josa.5067:

…using a consumable that costs money and 10 supply…

So why are you still insisting on the answer?

So far there has been only 1 reliable way to kill it, which was a condi bomb combined with a reveal, and even that won’t be really reliable if the thief is carrying Shadowstep, which I proved that they can have.

lol at the self-contradiction. For Grenth’s sake, make up your mind.

Are you getting frustrated? It almost seems like you are trying to insult me, by focusing on me contradicting myself, instead of even trying to provide meaningful advice. I never said that you were fighting the thief. I was saying that you indeed weren’t fighting the thief, you were simply not dying.

You sure about that? Do you have a short-term memory loss?

As I said before. You aren’t fighting the thief, you are simply buying yourself more time.

I’m not trying to insult, just wanting you to stop contradicting yourself so that we can at least take you seriously. It seems like every post you make is a contradiction to your last post.

Besides, what “meaningful advice” have you offered?

Also, you don’t necessarily win, if you don’t lose. Have you ever heard of a draw?

No such thing. If you attack me and I defended myself well, you lost because my defense won. It’s not a draw.

A draw only happens in a fair duel — like fencing.

From that reply, it seems that you are agreeing with me that the only “reliable” way to kill the thief is with the Stealth Disruptor Trap, which costs money and 10 supply. I believe that there should not be a build that can only be reliably defeated by using a consumable.

I was never talking about “reliable” ways, you’re the one demanding it, so no, I never agree with you, just pointing out that you already answered that question yourself. And if you think that “there should not be a build that can only be reliably defeated by using a consumable”, then why did you say this?

Josa.5067:

I couldn’t use food or my actual gear. My condition damage stat is about 800 lower than it would be in WvW.

So much flip flapping, man.

I suggest that you stop replying to this thread, if you can’t come up with any more actual advice.

So using Soldier/Valk, Withdraw, and Vault aren’t advice?

What “actual” advice have you posted?

The problem here is that the thief doesn’t get revealed, if they play well. And they CAN run stunbreaks/condicleanse, if they wan’t to, even if it does take their already low damage even lower.

You only matter if you’re a threat. Low damage is not a threat and not worth killing. My trapper variant is a threat and I don’t perma-stealth, even though I can, just to mock my target and give them a false sense of victory. lol @ stun-break and cleanse…you may be perma-stealth, but you’re not a trapper.

The problem with the build is that it can still do damage to kill some things, while being invisible,

That’s not true — proven by your build.

…and running tanky stats. I just don’t think that an invisible thing should be doing damage that is enough to kill another player, no matter what build the player is running.

Meh. I’ve shown you a build that your trapper build cannot kill. You’re simply cherry picking a scenario where a bad player, uplevel player, and/or berseker geared player died to a this troll build.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Josa.5067:

And I honestly don’t believe that you can kill a trapper thief by using Vault on them. I think you are forgetting that the thief doesn’t need to spend all their dodges for caltrops. They can actually save some of them so they can use the dodges to actually dodge attacks.

Then they’re not doing anything to me if they choose to save their dodges. Either way, my point being is that with my Soldier/Valk gear, I had a fighting chance when you said there’s none. You’re going off to a different line of conversation instead of following the one you’ve started.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

Josa.5067:

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.

Do you follow now?

Okay fine, one last reply.

There is a difference between fighting and not dying.

You aren’t putting the trapper thief if any real danger, so even if you consider it a fight, from the trapper thieves perspective, you aren’t a threat at all. What kind of a fight is that?

If that is the case, then from my perspective the trapper is not a threat either. So I guess we agree that it wasn’t a fight to begin with. Which makes your statement false.

Josa.5067:

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance...

And if you change your mind (again) that it was a fight after all, then my argument stands unrefuted.

The trapper thief most likely has 20k hp and 3k armor. Even if you landed a vault on them with your soldier/valkyrie gear, it wouldn’t do enough damage to win the fight.

How is it not a win if I didn’t lose?

I’m on the defense when fighting a perma-stealth trapper, thus if the attacker failed to break my defenses, they lose, I win.

As I said before. You aren’t fighting the thief, you are simply buying yourself more time. (In this case indefinitely.)

Meh. If you’re playing in WvW, you should have all the time in the world, otherwise, you’re in a wrong place. I can dance with the Thief all day. Vault cost is only 5 initiatives which replenish in 5 seconds. Withdraw recharges every 15 seconds. Traps’ fastest cooldown is 24 seconds. That’s a lot of down time for the trapper. That’s hardly buying myself time.

All this time I have been asking for a way to KILL the trapper thief reliably. I know you can survive against it, but how do you KILL it reliably? And before someone comes in and says that “We have given you a ton of ways to kill it already!”, I have already pointed out in the previous comments why the ways you have given me aren’t reliable ways to kill the thief.

Didn’t you already answered that question yourself?

Josa.5067:

…using a consumable that costs money and 10 supply…

So why are you still insisting on the answer?

So far there has been only 1 reliable way to kill it, which was a condi bomb combined with a reveal, and even that won’t be really reliable if the thief is carrying Shadowstep, which I proved that they can have.

lol at the self-contradiction. For Grenth’s sake, make up your mind.

Are you getting frustrated? It almost seems like you are trying to insult me, by focusing on me contradicting myself, instead of even trying to provide meaningful advice. I never said that you were fighting the thief. I was saying that you indeed weren’t fighting the thief, you were simply not dying.

You sure about that? Do you have a short-term memory loss?

As I said before. You aren’t fighting the thief, you are simply buying yourself more time.

I’m not trying to insult, just wanting you to stop contradicting yourself so that we can at least take you seriously. It seems like every post you make is a contradiction to your last post.

Besides, what “meaningful advice” have you offered?

Also, you don’t necessarily win, if you don’t lose. Have you ever heard of a draw?

No such thing. If you attack me and I defended myself well, you lost because my defense won. It’s not a draw.

A draw only happens in a fair duel — like fencing.

From that reply, it seems that you are agreeing with me that the only “reliable” way to kill the thief is with the Stealth Disruptor Trap, which costs money and 10 supply. I believe that there should not be a build that can only be reliably defeated by using a consumable.

I was never talking about “reliable” ways, you’re the one demanding it, so no, I never agree with you, just pointing out that you already answered that question yourself. And if you think that “there should not be a build that can only be reliably defeated by using a consumable”, then why did you say this?

Josa.5067:

I couldn’t use food or my actual gear. My condition damage stat is about 800 lower than it would be in WvW.

So much flip flapping, man.

I suggest that you stop replying to this thread, if you can’t come up with any more actual advice.

So using Soldier/Valk, Withdraw, and Vault aren’t advice?

What “actual” advice have you posted?

The problem here is that the thief doesn’t get revealed, if they play well. And they CAN run stunbreaks/condicleanse, if they wan’t to, even if it does take their already low damage even lower.

You only matter if you’re a threat. Low damage is not a threat and not worth killing. My trapper variant is a threat and I don’t perma-stealth, even though I can, just to mock my target and give them a false sense of victory. lol @ stun-break and cleanse…you may be perma-stealth, but you’re not a trapper.

The problem with the build is that it can still do damage to kill some things, while being invisible,

That’s not true — proven by your build.

…and running tanky stats. I just don’t think that an invisible thing should be doing damage that is enough to kill another player, no matter what build the player is running.

Meh. I’ve shown you a build that your trapper build cannot kill. You’re simply cherry picking a scenario where a bad player, uplevel player, and/or berseker geared player died to a this troll build.

Im not even sure what to tell you anymore. You claim that Im constantly contradicting myself, even when Im not. You even quote two replies where Im saying that you “weren’t fighting the thief” in both of them, and you claim that Im contradicting myself. It’s just that you appearently cannot understand written words, or you somehow twist them in your head to mean things that they do not.

I kindly ask you to read everything I have said again, and try to understand what the words mean. I understand if it’s too difficult for you, and I forgive you.

As for you not trying to insult me. Why do you make comments like “You sure about that? Do you have a short-term memory loss?” and “So much flip flapping, man.”, if you aren’t trying to insult?

Also you pointed out that Im not providing advice, which is true, because im the one ASKING for advice. Im asking you how to KILL this build. You failed to answer it properly. And now you are trying to insult me.

Also, Im very sure you know that the build is capable of killing other players. Why do you think there are so many people playing it?

And since when did changing one utility skill make the entire build different?

You are nothing but a bully at this point, desperately trying to find some way to make me look stupid. Im done talking to you. And if you really aren’t looking for a fight, I suggest that you do the same.

Josa.5067:

Im not even sure what to tell you anymore. You claim that Im constantly contradicting myself, even when Im not. You even quote two replies where Im saying that you “weren’t fighting the thief” in both of them, and you claim that Im contradicting myself. It’s just that you appearently cannot understand written words, or you somehow twist them in your head to mean things that they do not.

You have a very twisted definition of what “fighting” is. If someone is assaulting you and you are defending yourself, to you, that’s not a fight?

The problem here is that you cannot follow a conversation.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.

Josa.5067:

And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.

Josa.5067:

You aren’t fighting the thief, you are simply buying yourself more time. (In this case indefinitely.)

So I have a fighting chance in an encounter that isn’t a fight in the first place? What kind of a messed up line of thinking is that?

I kindly ask you to read everything I have said again, and try to understand what the words mean. I understand if it’s too difficult for you, and I forgive you.

lol @ “I forgive you”, ad hom much?

When someone is running away from their assaulter, that’s not a fight. But when someone stood their ground in an act of self-defense, that’s a fight. Just because you don’t understand the difference and you’re redefining what a “fight” is, doesn’t make it so.

As for you not trying to insult me. Why do you make comments like “You sure about that? Do you have a short-term memory loss?” and “So much flip flapping, man.”, if you aren’t trying to insult?

Stating a fact is not an insult. What’s insulting is that you not remember what you’ve posted.

- First you ask a question forgetting that you’ve already answered it about using trap as a reliable counter.

- Second, you can’t even understand what a fight is even though I’ve even stated that gearing Soldier/Dire is giving someone a fighting chance…meaning, so that they can fight back and not die from the first trap rotation.

- Third, you mention that a counter shouldn’t be relying on consumables, yet you complain that your condition damage in PvP is low without food — which is a consumable. Consumables exists for a reason.

Now you’re denying everything event hough everyone can read what you’ve posted.

Also you pointed out that Im not providing advice, which is true, because im the one ASKING for advice. Im asking you how to KILL this build. You failed to answer it properly. And now you are trying to insult me.

Advice has been given and you’ve even provided a reliable counter using the trap consumable. What more do you want?

Also, Im very sure you know that the build is capable of killing other players. Why do you think there are so many people playing it?

I know that my variant build is capable of killing other players…your build, I’m not so sure. I can use a different rune and still kill people. Many players use this build not because they can kill people, that’s a wrong notion, it’s because they can perma-stealth, which can also be accomplished without the trapper rune.

And since when did changing one utility skill make the entire build different?

The anger behind the [erma-stealth trapper build revolves around Needle trap and Trip wire. Removing Trip wire so that you can have a cleanse is not the build that everyone is complaining about. The anger stems from the fact that after being immobilized, trip wire interrupts their cleanse, so they sit they helplessly taking damage.

So just because you can perma-stealth, uses trap and trapper runes, doesn’t make your build the build that everyone is complaining about. Yours is a weaker variant.

You are nothing but a bully at this point, desperately trying to find some way to make me look stupid. Im done talking to you. And if you really aren’t looking for a fight, I suggest that you do the same.

How am I a bully? Calling me names doesn’t make it so. Just like calling a fight not a fight doesn’t make it so.

Sir Vincent. Just let it go.

You are the one that is twisting his words and taking them out of context. Whats even worse is that you keep bringing this up over and over again even when hes trying to put an end to it. You really are acting like a bully at this point.

I read through the whole conversation, and never noticed him really contradicting himself. All i noticed was that you really didnt answer his question after he pointed out what flaws your advice had.

He actually never was asking how to not die to this build. He was asking for a reliable way to kill it. Do you honestly think that the build is balanced if the only way to reliably kill it is with a consumable that costs money and supplies?

Again it doesn’t take a consumable to reliably kill it, people just panic when they start getting attacked by it and don’t fight it effectively literally standing in the BP circles will make the the thief reveal and then proceed to kill him.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again it doesn’t take a consumable to reliably kill it, people just panic when they start getting attacked by it and don’t fight it effectively literally standing in the BP circles will make the the thief reveal and then proceed to kill him.

What if the thief stops leaping when you enter the BP? That way he doesnt get revealed. You need pretty fast reflexes if you want to get into the BP before he leaps in it atleast once or twice.

And even if he does get revealed, how will you kill him before he stealths again? He does have lots of hp and armor and he could still have his dodges left.

Carrot.5670:

Sir Vincent. Just let it go.

You are the one that is twisting his words and taking them out of context. Whats even worse is that you keep bringing this up over and over again even when hes trying to put an end to it. You really are acting like a bully at this point.

I read through the whole conversation, and never noticed him really contradicting himself. All i noticed was that you really didnt answer his question after he pointed out what flaws your advice had.

He actually never was asking how to not die to this build. He was asking for a reliable way to kill it. Do you honestly think that the build is balanced if the only way to reliably kill it is with a consumable that costs money and supplies?

No kidding man. I usually like Sir Vincent’s posts but this thread isn’t his best side. No. If no one wins, that’s not a “win”. it’s a draw. Bring up fencing to the discussion? Geez. Give it up.

I’ve ran into these thieves where I had to refuge and simple walk away. Tried my best to bait a reveal to no avail so the best I could hope for was a draw and I took it. I’m also curious to a counter to this build. It’d be nice if we leave our egos out the door so we can have a discussion instead of nit-picking every word.

People really complain about trap thief? I think you are all trolling me.

I kill this or foce him to run off using a d/d condition build. Yes you whirl with your DB in that smokefield. They soon dead if he hangs around.

Again people focus on the wrong thing here when they speak of a stealthed thief. I can permastealth without a single trap traited and do damage. Adding a reveal to traps based on damage accomplished nothing but making traps next to useless. I want to set a trap so that when a person triggers it I can attack from stealth. Shadow step is designed for this. I do not want a trap that works against me like last refuge out of the SA did when it forced on the thief.

As in you are immobed/knocked down , I come out of stealth with my AA attack meant to take advantage of that rather then dam my trap revealed me and now I can not get my backstab in before the immob breaks or he gets up.

The build is a nuisance little more. There no need to ruin an entire set of utilities and marginalize SA yet more with forced reveals. (That all said I do find it strange that the Thief as a class has no reveal . Matsers of stealth should be best at detecting it but that a diffeent argument.)

babazhook.6805:

I kill this or foce him to run off using a d/d condition build. Yes you whirl with your DB in that smokefield. They soon dead if he hangs around.

Again people focus on the wrong thing here when they speak of a stealthed thief. I can permastealth without a single trap traited and do damage. Adding a reveal to traps based on damage accomplished nothing but making traps next to useless. I want to set a trap so that when a person triggers it I can attack from stealth. Shadow step is designed for this. I do not want a trap that works against me like last refuge out of the SA did when it forced on the thief.

As in you are immobed/knocked down , I come out of stealth with my AA attack meant to take advantage of that rather then dam my trap revealed me and now I can not get my backstab in before the immob breaks or he gets up.

The build is a nuisance little more. There no need to ruin an entire set of utilities and marginalize SA yet more with forced reveals. (That all said I do find it strange that the Thief as a class has no reveal . Matsers of stealth should be best at detecting it but that a diffeent argument.)

Nobody is asking for the traps to be completely ruined. Infact, they could be even get buffed if they change the fact that you can kill people without ever getting seen with them.

How does a change like this sound like? : The traps now have an effect similiar to Pulmonary Impact that would proc after like 5 seconds or something after the trap has been triggered. That way you won’t instantly get revealed, but you can’t kill people with them without ever being revealed. The traps could also get some damage/whatever buffs to make them better outside of the niche permastealth builds.

You are complaining about literally 2 damaging condies that are applied in very small stacks on top of Confusion which is not even applied by confusion if you are dying to that its not the thief build its your own build/skill

BlaqueFyre.5678:

You are complaining about literally 2 damaging condies that are applied in very small stacks on top of Confusion which is not even applied by confusion if you are dying to that its not the thief build its your own build/skill

Why are you defending it so heavily though? Can’t you see that the traps could get buffed if they removed the broken aspect from them, which is that they can do damage that is enough to kill people, without getting revealed.

Right now they literally can’t buff the traps, because it would cause alot of rage. People are already complaining even now, when the traps are relatively weak.

They don’t do enough damage to kill any skilled player or player with a condie cleanse most condie cleanses have shorter Cd than the traps, there are builds out there that kill you if you attack them, I.e. Scrapper and Perplex Mesmer, I couldn’t care less about the build I’m just astounded by people that are being killed by a very low damage build which points to your build being useless or you being highly unskilled at the game, In a pvp game mode you should always have at least 1 stun break, and at least 1 condie cleanse. If you have both of those this build becomes useless,

It just sounds like you are mad that you will never get the stomp on the thief is all more so than that he can kill anything.

I have seen a few videos of people getting "rekt"by these thieves and they most panic or don’t respond correctly like one guy had confusion and kept auto attacking a dolyak instead of cleansing and died because his own lack of attention/skill

BlaqueFyre.5678:

They don’t do enough damage to kill any skilled player or player with a condie cleanse most condie cleanses have shorter Cd than the traps, there are builds out there that kill you if you attack them, I.e. Scrapper and Perplex Mesmer, I couldn’t care less about the build I’m just astounded by people that are being killed by a very low damage build which points to your build being useless or you being highly unskilled at the game, In a pvp game mode you should always have at least 1 stun break, and at least 1 condie cleanse. If you have both of those this build becomes useless,

It just sounds like you are mad that you will never get the stomp on the thief is all more so than that he can kill anything.

I have seen a few videos of people getting "rekt"by these thieves and they most panic or don’t respond correctly like one guy had confusion and kept auto attacking a dolyak instead of cleansing and died because his own lack of attention/skill

So you don’t want the traps to be useful outside of the permastealth builds then?

And yes. I am mad that I can never get a stomp on the thief. It’s really annoying…

Traps ARE useful now outside permastealth as I indicated. Shadow step as example is a beaut , a long range port that allows you to immediately do a backstab or hook strike from stealth with might and vulnerability.

Needle trap is excellent in a p/X build hybrid or Condition. You set it up and stealth and when triggered come out with your sneak attack while vuln and might runs. The target is immobed so generally eats that attack or uses something to break the same which to the thieves advantage as they can followup with body shot.

Consider the following Combo. Trappers Runes using p/p hybrid. Load on an added venom (spiders as example). Needle trap triggered for 1 poison 3 bleed and immb, come out of stealth with venom loaded with sneak attack , thats 5 more bleeds 5 more poison stacks. Use head shot for 3 stacks torment (1 more posion) and interrupt using pressure strike.

Follow up with unload for might stacking so as to get all of those conditions ticking higher along with what would be very good damage from the power as well.

No permastealth involved and the traps are not forcing a reveal that could end up killing you.

When you get right down to it , you are in essence just making an anti-stealth arguement. The fixes you suggest are affecting legitimate stealth builds further marginalizing the SA line. Given the thief as a profession has attacks that are very specifically designed to take advantage of stealth, those all on the AA , forcing more reveals when a thief uses a utility simply means those utilities become less advantageous. They go to the not used category.

That is where traps were before the changes made and the damage component removed. They were not used.

Carrot.5670:

Sir Vincent. Just let it go.

You are the one that is twisting his words and taking them out of context. Whats even worse is that you keep bringing this up over and over again even when hes trying to put an end to it. You really are acting like a bully at this point.

I read through the whole conversation, and never noticed him really contradicting himself. All i noticed was that you really didnt answer his question after he pointed out what flaws your advice had.

He actually never was asking how to not die to this build. He was asking for a reliable way to kill it. Do you honestly think that the build is balanced if the only way to reliably kill it is with a consumable that costs money and supplies?

That’s what he considered “reliable” I don’t believe the revealed trap is necessary.

What I’ve offered is a way to fight the perma-stealth. Using Soldier/Valk, I can withstand the traps and negates the conditions with Withdraw. I use Vault to leap to his black powder whenever it comes us. He has to rely on the leaps into BP to stay in stealth while his traps are on cooldown but my Vaults limits his chances to extend the stealth. Even if they wear Dire set, they’ll still take massive damage from Vault and auto-attacks. If I successfully fight him off, that’s a win, not a draw because I have turned the table around. Then he go about not calling it a fight…

I’ve also given an example that a well played Herald can kill the trapper build, yet he doesn’t think it to be reliable enough because he can bring Shadowstep, replacing Trip Wire. Then that’s no longer the trapper build that everyone is complaining about — he took it out of context first, I just went with it.

Here’s the context. The non-variant perma-stealth trapper build is weak and has no way to kill anyone unless you’re AFK. This build is also squishy against condition damage but slightly resistant against power because they wear Dire. This build uses Needle Trap and Trip Wire as a combo because Trip can interrupt cleanse and heals. Hide in Shadows is a horrible heal to use due to its 30s cooldown. Withdraw is the better choice where traps can be used every 15s instead of the long 30s CD of HiS. This build also opt for Sleight of Hand for interrupt and short Steal cooldown to trigger Hidden Thief instead of Bewildering Ambush. Now he changed a lot from this build just so he can complain that it’s unkillable.

If trying to debunk someone trying to divert from that context is considered “bullying” then I’ll just agree on everything he or anybody says and nobody will ever learn anything.