Guild Wars 2

Good change, thieves perma stealthing is getting out of hand.

Well, Swimsasa. There are folk on the other side of the divide who’d think “Bunker” Ele
(and/or Guard) are OP to the max. Especially with the massive boon-uptime/high-scaling Healing Power stat. Now, I’ve run Ele (80) and have a Guard I’m working on (41), so I realize that those aspects are the main power-boost for those two classes.
Just goes to that old phrase, “The grass is always greener on the other side.”

The funny part there, is they modded Healing on PvP-side, but didn’t touch it for WvW. And I must say, Bunker Ele (especially FotM D/D) is still a sick customer
to deal with. I can generally kill ‘em, but I’d better be on my P’s and Q’s. Otherwise, they’re getting away, pronto. Especially on my Mesmer.

Yeah, Advent, the Thieves here probably aren’t as used to seeing an enemy run away as us poor, slow Mesmers :-)

Oh well, we control team fights much better. Apples and Oranges.

If you listen to all that they are saying in the interview, it is looking pretty good to me. They are trying to open up the viable options for Thieves, give them more options versus Bunkers (the Thief’s hardest opponent), make Thieves the king of what they are supposed to be king of, and make Thieves more useful for groups.

I think always being revealed after stealthing is worth the above.

yet people who can’t handle stealth already still wont be able to and they’ll most likely complain when the targets thieves have issues with no longer give them issues.

I mean lets be honest this is a major change for 7 months in. We don’t know ho w this will affect refuge might stacking and a number of other things. What we do know is that we get no defensive buffs in stealth and good player always drop an aoe or swings so getting chained to death with CnD is (I am sorry) noob kitten to a whole nother level.

What we have here is a situation where stealth should be nerfed but buffed to compensate ie protection in stealth or a similar trait. I don’t know what comes next for this class. I haven’t been one shot by a thief 1v1 in months.

In Spvp this will be fine but in PvE /Wv3 it could be the end of the class. I cant remember the number of times I had to chain stealth to save a run. Honestly I love thief but I’ll run to ele til they nerf that into the ground and then go to warrior since its untouchable.

I honestly hoe they know what the hell they are doing.

Edit; @Sebrent

If they actually do it. All we know is stealth nerf goes in this patch and they were murky at best about the mobility. Even with a kitten load of mobility that doesn’t equal survival its chase. And if you go high init regen you can do that already.

Advent.6193:

Well, Swimsasa. There are folk on the other side of the divide who’d think “Bunker” Ele
(and/or Guard) are OP to the max.

It all depends on the game-mode.

• In sPvP bunkers rule the point defense style while stealth actually can be harmful to the thief.

• In WvW even full bunkers have little to defend against the wrath of a whole zerg while a thief can simply stealth to escape/attack.

Bringing stealth down a bit and giving thief anti-bunker mechanics (other than burst) is a good direction to bring thief in balance in WvW (getting nerfed here) and sPvP (getting buffed here).

We will still have the same stealth as before if you were actually killing somebody. The only real nerf to my play-style is I can no longer go for a steal-stab then choose to back off and do BP^HS^Mug^BS as soon as stealth wears off.

The changes sound like:

No non stacked chain stealth (not going to effect refuge, he clearly said when you exist stealth and used the C&D spam example)
Mug dmg reduction or removal
More mobility
Anti boon mechanics

Mobility is just as powerful as stealth. They want us to be more mobile than Eles and we will still have the same combat stealth as before. If you were fighting to kill someone you won’t even notice the changes and now when we do run, no one will be able to keep up. All the while they want us to be able to slice thru boon tanks like butter. Sounds ok to me.

On another note, Mug is also supposedly being nerfed. While I never use the burst build that incorporates it, what’s the point of having the trait at all if the damage is non-significant? Instead of doing damage at all, it should be something like a short knockback that steals one boon. That sounds more “Mug”-ish to me, and it can be incorporated in to multiple builds as it’s not for one cheesy burst that was the complaint the devs themselves had about the trait.

I posted this aswell in the wvwvw stealth change topic, but i guess since this the discussion place about it might aswell drop the post here.

In smaller fights and Spvp the revealed change won’t be that bad it will suck however in the bigger fights, as thieves don’t have the range other classes have, nor have the hp, tankyness, immunites or buffs the frontline have, so they now simply can go in once and run away, or stay and die, while before you could harrass in the backline, and chain a stealth to get that aggro off and go again.

Also if they do remove Mug in it’s current form they take a big part of the thief burst, while the burst perhaps could use a little damage nerf overall, removing a big part of the burst on a 36-45 sec cd, while mesmers engi wars etc can still spam for these amounts on aoe every 10 seconds at least is rather silly.

I thought the Devs would assume just culling fixing regarding stealth would be enough for now but seems they have given in to the Columba’s on the forum, enough people could and knew how to deal with it but instead they now choose that it’s not the enemy that has to deal with it but the thief simply has to decide to run now and not have any form of substain like other classes have.

Overall a bit dissapointing with these upcoming changes but let’s see how it is when it’s there.

This is my honest opinion so if you get offended I don’t mind. The way I look at it is this;

If you rely on perma stealth chain, that is your problem. It is not a general thief’s problem because another thief over-abusing a “spam” (either hs or stealth) does not reflect the standard game play of a thief. Don’t confuse what most thieves do with what a thief can do .

What reflects the standard nature of the profession is adapting not relying on skill exploitation. Thief is a profession that will constantly need you to adapt. If you haven’t played other mmorpgs as a thief, you should know that through Guild Wars 2 by now.

I don’t mind the change because I have started to rely less on skill exploitation and more to adaptive reactions.

And before I forget, there is a difference between nerf and adaptation. If there is a spam that needs to be changed, that is called balancing it out not nerfing it.

Stiv.1820:

We will still have the same stealth as before if you were actually killing somebody. The only real nerf to my play-style is I can no longer go for a steal-stab then choose to back off and do BP^HS^Mug^BS as soon as stealth wears off.

The changes sound like:

No non stacked chain stealth (not going to effect refuge, he clearly said when you exist stealth and used the C&D spam example)
Mug dmg reduction or removal
More mobility
Anti boon mechanics

Mobility is just as powerful as stealth. They want us to be more mobile than Eles and we will still have the same combat stealth as before. If you were fighting to kill someone you won’t even notice the changes and now when we do run, no one will be able to keep up. All the while they want us to be able to slice thru boon tanks like butter. Sounds ok to me.

I think if you are an aggressive thief that knows when to get back off you wont really notice a difference. There will be some adjustments for all thieves it just depended on your playstyle.

I never really zerg surfed. Most of the time I would hop in to kill someone and before anyone could react reveal was over anyway and I could restealth. Im on the same page it sound fine to me honestly.

If I had to choose between the ridiculous suggestion I seen in these forums (damage break stealth rofl) and this I’m ok with this.

People can still be trolled and that is what is important!

Gamblit.5041:

Last Refuge Use Blinding Powder when your health reaches 25% (90-second cooldown.
Descent of Shadows Release blinding powder when you take falling damage. Take 50% less damage from falling.

Instinctual Response Use feathers to blind and stealth when you take more than 10% of your health in a single strike. This effect can only trigger once every 60 seconds.

Now we have Traits that gives us 3 second reveal debuff every time we hit 25% HP, or fall down, or on hit.

Hip hip Hooray for 3 useless traits now!

Super sad face…

Gamblit.5041:

Last Refuge Use Blinding Powder when your health reaches 25% (90-second cooldown.
Descent of Shadows Release blinding powder when you take falling damage. Take 50% less damage from falling.

Instinctual Response Use feathers to blind and stealth when you take more than 10% of your health in a single strike. This effect can only trigger once every 60 seconds.

Now we have Traits that gives us 3 second reveal debuff every time we hit 25% HP, or fall down, or on hit.

Hip hip Hooray for 3 useless traits now!

unfortunately this is what happens when you hear a few complaints about a few specific things and then blanket nerf an entire mechanic because of it rather than fix the specific problems.

oZii.2864:

Stiv.1820:

We will still have the same stealth as before if you were actually killing somebody. The only real nerf to my play-style is I can no longer go for a steal-stab then choose to back off and do BP^HS^Mug^BS as soon as stealth wears off.

The changes sound like:

No non stacked chain stealth (not going to effect refuge, he clearly said when you exist stealth and used the C&D spam example)
Mug dmg reduction or removal
More mobility
Anti boon mechanics

Mobility is just as powerful as stealth. They want us to be more mobile than Eles and we will still have the same combat stealth as before. If you were fighting to kill someone you won’t even notice the changes and now when we do run, no one will be able to keep up. All the while they want us to be able to slice thru boon tanks like butter. Sounds ok to me.

I think if you are an aggressive thief that knows when to get back off you wont really notice a difference. There will be some adjustments for all thieves it just depended on your playstyle.

I never really zerg surfed. Most of the time I would hop in to kill someone and before anyone could react reveal was over anyway and I could restealth. Im on the same page it sound fine to me honestly.

If I had to choose between the ridiculous suggestion I seen in these forums (damage break stealth rofl) and this I’m ok with this.

People can still be trolled and that is what is important!

Yep! That trolling will just require a bit more skill as you will be forced to unstealth for 3 seconds which makes it appear fine in my book.

I’m actually more concerned about it being too big of a nerf for the thief (where’s your compensation?) than I am it not being enough of a nerf… but it’s not a big concern. Those 3 seconds are much less time than many other classes have to deal with being visible.

I’m more concerned about my Mesmer’s ability to escape now.

Gamblit.5041:

Last Refuge Use Blinding Powder when your health reaches 25% (90-second cooldown.
Descent of Shadows Release blinding powder when you take falling damage. Take 50% less damage from falling.

Instinctual Response Use feathers to blind and stealth when you take more than 10% of your health in a single strike. This effect can only trigger once every 60 seconds.

Now we have Traits that gives us 3 second reveal debuff every time we hit 25% HP, or fall down, or on hit.

Hip hip Hooray for 3 useless traits now!

I don’t see how this changes these traits. I can’t think of one time I took fall damage then instantly had to go into stealth when stealth wore off?

Last refuge and DiS are still the same as well. They are only good if you aren’t fighting to begin with otherwise they would boht screw you over with reveal anyway. Nothing changes there.

Don’t forget they are going to bump our mobility as well. So if you need to get away, you will be able to when any one of those pop (we already can for the most part)

Sebrent.3625:

oZii.2864:

Stiv.1820:

We will still have the same stealth as before if you were actually killing somebody. The only real nerf to my play-style is I can no longer go for a steal-stab then choose to back off and do BP^HS^Mug^BS as soon as stealth wears off.

The changes sound like:

No non stacked chain stealth (not going to effect refuge, he clearly said when you exist stealth and used the C&D spam example)
Mug dmg reduction or removal
More mobility
Anti boon mechanics

Mobility is just as powerful as stealth. They want us to be more mobile than Eles and we will still have the same combat stealth as before. If you were fighting to kill someone you won’t even notice the changes and now when we do run, no one will be able to keep up. All the while they want us to be able to slice thru boon tanks like butter. Sounds ok to me.

I think if you are an aggressive thief that knows when to get back off you wont really notice a difference. There will be some adjustments for all thieves it just depended on your playstyle.

I never really zerg surfed. Most of the time I would hop in to kill someone and before anyone could react reveal was over anyway and I could restealth. Im on the same page it sound fine to me honestly.

If I had to choose between the ridiculous suggestion I seen in these forums (damage break stealth rofl) and this I’m ok with this.

People can still be trolled and that is what is important!

Yep! That trolling will just require a bit more skill as you will be forced to unstealth for 3 seconds which makes it appear fine in my book.

I’m actually more concerned about it being too big of a nerf for the thief (where’s your compensation?) than I am it not being enough of a nerf… but it’s not a big concern. Those 3 seconds are much less time than many other classes have to deal with being visible.

I’m more concerned about my Mesmer’s ability to escape now.

They said they would give Thief more mobility and boon hate mechanics.

I never even noticed reveal on a Mesmer? Is it a thing? The stelath don’t stack like a Thief, decoy is it’s own boon that overlaps with MassInvis or Torch4. Do they even use that mechanic?

Stiv.1820:

Gamblit.5041:

Last Refuge Use Blinding Powder when your health reaches 25% (90-second cooldown.
Descent of Shadows Release blinding powder when you take falling damage. Take 50% less damage from falling.

Instinctual Response Use feathers to blind and stealth when you take more than 10% of your health in a single strike. This effect can only trigger once every 60 seconds.

Now we have Traits that gives us 3 second reveal debuff every time we hit 25% HP, or fall down, or on hit.

Hip hip Hooray for 3 useless traits now!

I don’t see how this changes these traits. I can’t think of one time I took fall damage then instantly had to go into stealth when stealth wore off?

Last refuge and DiS are still the same as well. They are only good if you aren’t fighting to begin with otherwise they would boht screw you over with reveal anyway. Nothing changes there.

Don’t forget they are going to bump our mobility as well. So if you need to get away, you will be able to when any one of those pop (we already can for the most part)

Anet also said they will buff Ranger’s useless utilities and it has been 5 months…

Buffs/nerfs will be in the game if they say it is in the patch note like they did with the reveal debuff.

If not, everything is subject to change and based on their track record I wouldn’t hold my breath (regarding the buffs).

MIrra.3604:

Stiv.1820:

Gamblit.5041:

Last Refuge Use Blinding Powder when your health reaches 25% (90-second cooldown.
Descent of Shadows Release blinding powder when you take falling damage. Take 50% less damage from falling.

Instinctual Response Use feathers to blind and stealth when you take more than 10% of your health in a single strike. This effect can only trigger once every 60 seconds.

Now we have Traits that gives us 3 second reveal debuff every time we hit 25% HP, or fall down, or on hit.

Hip hip Hooray for 3 useless traits now!

I don’t see how this changes these traits. I can’t think of one time I took fall damage then instantly had to go into stealth when stealth wore off?

Last refuge and DiS are still the same as well. They are only good if you aren’t fighting to begin with otherwise they would boht screw you over with reveal anyway. Nothing changes there.

Don’t forget they are going to bump our mobility as well. So if you need to get away, you will be able to when any one of those pop (we already can for the most part)

Anet also said they will buff Ranger’s useless utilities and it has been 5 months…

Buffs/nerfs will be in the game if they say it is in the patch note like they did with the reveal debuff.

If not, everything is subject to change and based on their track record I wouldn’t hold my breath (regarding the buffs).

Well the reveal change by itself isn’t that bad. I would only be sad if they removed Mug and did not add anything else. Hopefully they at least release the Mug nerf with the rest of the package.

Daendur.2357:

The only problem is:
does revelaed trigger when a stealth ends or when you leave stealth?
1- will broke the class
2- not a real big problem

what I mean is SR pulses stacking stealth if revealed trigger when the first pulse goes off then we have to think to big changes to our builds… otherwise you just have to time well you skills to not leave stealth.

sounded like the later, but obviously can be just misleading.
He said “when they come out of stealth, there usually isn’t much a chance to get hold of them”, which probably aimed at CnD, since bp-hs stealth isn’t so quick to produce.

he also said “reveal is gonna apply when you come out of stealth”, not “when stealth duration ends”. So it seemed just when you let the stealth buff blink off, reveal will come in, and as long as you don’t let that wear off it’d be ok.

From d/p perspective, this wouldn’t change things much, and if we could take advantage of the mobility changes then it will be a general buff,
Right now I’m running d/p on both swaps and forest map really isn’t friendly to shortbowless thieves.

This ranking board had me worried though. It seemed like a handy tool for the dev to target certain spec or build for nerfs. Say all thief builds take a dive and only one remains strong, leaderboard will make that obvious, and we all know what could happen from there.

I think these people need to realize there are large skill margins between players, whether it’s experience, knowledge (of classes and builds) or just APM, you can’t judge a build or profession by how certain player(s) do with it. You also cannot raise playing level of the bads simply by shifting the power of build and specs 1-dimensionally. I like the approach of adding new elements (like boon punishment). Give direct counters as options, maybe utilities, or better yet, elites. Give more color to the class, and let players decide whether they want those or not.

Don’t forget they are going to bump our mobility as well. So if you need to get away, you will be able to when any one of those pop (we already can for the most part)

Stop spreading lies. They said “Looking to increase mobility for sets other than the shortbow”. LOOKING INTO IT. Do you understand what that means?

Also i find it rather disappointing that they didn’t mention anything about our AOE. No shortbow? No aoe.

Stiv.1820:

I never even noticed reveal on a Mesmer? Is it a thing? The stelath don’t stack like a Thief, decoy is it’s own boon that overlaps with MassInvis or Torch4. Do they even use that mechanic?

You never noticed it probably because most Mesmers you faced didn’t break stealth by attacking and/or didn’t take more than one stealth skill.

Sebrent.3625:

Stiv.1820:

I never even noticed reveal on a Mesmer? Is it a thing? The stelath don’t stack like a Thief, decoy is it’s own boon that overlaps with MassInvis or Torch4. Do they even use that mechanic?

You never noticed it probably because most Mesmers you faced didn’t break stealth by attacking and/or didn’t take more than one stealth skill.

I mean playing my memser. I have never noticed having reveal, maybe because I don’t attack from stealth directly ever unless it’s to Shatter. Still, decoy does not stack with other stealth, I know that for sure.

I run decoy, torch and MassInvis for stealth. I think we will still be able to get away doing all three of those back to back. MassInvis and Torch4 do stack so you can avoid revel by timing it if you are running. I wonder if decoy will stealth you under revel since it’s a separate type of buff? I’m going to mess around with this tonight.

Stiv.1820:

I mean playing my memser. I have never noticed having reveal, maybe because I don’t attack from stealth directly ever unless it’s to Shatter. Still, decoy does not stack with other stealth, I know that for sure.

I run decoy, torch and MassInvis for stealth. I think we will still be able to get away doing all three of those back to back. MassInvis and Torch4 do stack so you can avoid revel by timing it if you are running. I wonder if decoy will stealth you under revel since it’s a separate type of buff? I’m going to mess around with this tonight.

Do please make a post and/or whisper me with the results of your testing. I have a wife and kids so I don’t have as much free-time for testing, helping others, doing dailies, and general playing as I’d like to.

Gamblit.5041:

Zog.3954:

Don’t forget they are going to bump our mobility as well. So if you need to get away, you will be able to when any one of those pop (we already can for the most part)

Stop spreading lies. They said “Looking to increase mobility for sets other than the shortbow”. LOOKING INTO IT. Do you understand what that means?

Also i find it rather disappointing that they didn’t mention anything about our AOE. No shortbow? No aoe.

" Sets other then shortbow"? What does it means?
Daggers have Heartseeker 450 range.
Sword have Infiltrator’s Strike 600 range.
Pistol – only weapon with out any ranged mobility skills.

Are they going to increase range on Daggers and Swords mobility skills ( why?), or add something to Pistols?

No idea. They didn’t specified anything expect what you can find in that quote. But as i said in other posts too, they didn’t said we will get them this patch. More like “its on the table” thing.

Zog.3954:

Gamblit.5041:

Zog.3954:

Don’t forget they are going to bump our mobility as well. So if you need to get away, you will be able to when any one of those pop (we already can for the most part)

Stop spreading lies. They said “Looking to increase mobility for sets other than the shortbow”. LOOKING INTO IT. Do you understand what that means?

Also i find it rather disappointing that they didn’t mention anything about our AOE. No shortbow? No aoe.

" Sets other then shortbow"? What does it means?
Daggers have Heartseeker 450 range.
Sword have Infiltrator’s Strike 600 range.
Pistol – only weapon with out any ranged mobility skills.

Are they going to increase range on Daggers and Swords mobility skills ( why?), or add something to Pistols?

No idea. They didn’t specified anything expect what you can find in that quote. But as i said in other posts too, they didn’t said we will get them this patch. More like “its on the table” thing.

They said “we’re looking into xxxx” to string us along. You guys remember that post from Anet regarding buffing pistol in a meaningful way?

We go 5% more damage and that was it.

Oh BTW, be careful about using stealth stomp from now on. That kitten will probably get you killed.

Authority.6145:

This is my honest opinion so if you get offended I don’t mind. The way I look at it is this;

If you rely on perma stealth chain, that is your problem. It is not a general thief’s problem because another thief over-abusing a “spam” (either hs or stealth) does not reflect the standard game play of a thief. Don’t confuse what most thieves do with what a thief can do .

What reflects the standard nature of the profession is adapting not relying on skill exploitation. Thief is a profession that will constantly need you to adapt. If you haven’t played other mmorpgs as a thief, you should know that through Guild Wars 2 by now.

I don’t mind the change because I have started to rely less on skill exploitation and more to adaptive reactions.

And before I forget, there is a difference between nerf and adaptation. If there is a spam that needs to be changed, that is called balancing it out not nerfing it.

Define skill exploitation please.

Becuase among the non “spam” builds that wont be touched are. P/D hit 5 spam 1 from ranged when they close the gap do it again. DD Death Blossom Spam 3 hit a stealth spam 3. S/P pistol whip spam. How about PP unload spam.

Shockingly the only builds that require more than 2 skills to use or where the other skills are actually useful are D/P and S/D.

What I find funny is that even a backstab combo with DD requires more skills to pull off then the majority of our builds. If we cut the BS most of our builds are spam. The worst don’t even involve stealth.

The standard nature my fellow thief is literally to exploit single moves.

Edit:

Different topic altogether but the real question is how is stacking stealth going to work?

wish.3102:

ensoriki.5789:

Dasorine.1964:

So much for the “we wont be nerfing professions again”

A lot of this is going to not only cripple some thieves in pvp but many pve thieves.

Also the lack of stacking stealth makes shadow refuge useless, sure fixing being able to stack it via spamming attacks through a smoke fields maybe worthwhile doing, but stealth doesn’t last that long regardless and the majority of times of letting stealth fade and going back into it is for escape rather than assault in both pve and pvp.

If these changes go through without a LOT of discussion and some boost or things given back to us then I’ve lost all faith in ANET and their dirty dirty lies.

Watch the interview.
Hear when they say they want thieves to be better in team fights and think we are too weak in that department.
Hear where they say we could probably remove more boons.
Hear where they say our mobility should be better and Eles are doing our job.

Buffs are coming our way, they’re just reducing the cheese.

Ya, and those changes won’t be in this update. So THF is officially craptier.

K see you later brah.

Gamblit.5041:

Zog.3954:

Don’t forget they are going to bump our mobility as well. So if you need to get away, you will be able to when any one of those pop (we already can for the most part)

Stop spreading lies. They said “Looking to increase mobility for sets other than the shortbow”. LOOKING INTO IT. Do you understand what that means?

Also i find it rather disappointing that they didn’t mention anything about our AOE. No shortbow? No aoe.

" Sets other then shortbow"? What does it means?
Daggers have Heartseeker 450 range.
Sword have Infiltrator’s Strike 600 range.
Pistol – only weapon with out any ranged mobility skills.

Are they going to increase range on Daggers and Swords mobility skills ( why?), or add something to Pistols?

Or they may start by making Acrobatics a more significant trait-line for one.

to the above you. The sword hits 3 people minimum with auto-attack-inf strike, Pistol whip/Flanking strike, Dancing daggers hits what 5 people max? Black Powder affects 5 people as well.
You have melee multi-target and range multi target. Melee single target and range single-target…

Auesis.7301:

On another note, Mug is also supposedly being nerfed. While I never use the burst build that incorporates it, what’s the point of having the trait at all if the damage is non-significant? Instead of doing damage at all, it should be something like a short knockback that steals one boon. That sounds more “Mug”-ish to me, and it can be incorporated in to multiple builds as it’s not for one cheesy burst that was the complaint the devs themselves had about the trait.

Ive been hit for 8k by mug out in wvw, this is just crazy on top of the other hits. 8k mug, 8k cloak and dagger, 8k+ backstab all in 1.5 seconds = anyone dead. Yes I know cloak and dagger recieved a nerf, but out in wvw I still get hit by the occasional 8k surprisingly. IMO mug should only be critting for 3k max, 8k is just silly.

Edenwolf.6328:

Auesis.7301:

On another note, Mug is also supposedly being nerfed. While I never use the burst build that incorporates it, what’s the point of having the trait at all if the damage is non-significant? Instead of doing damage at all, it should be something like a short knockback that steals one boon. That sounds more “Mug”-ish to me, and it can be incorporated in to multiple builds as it’s not for one cheesy burst that was the complaint the devs themselves had about the trait.

Ive been hit for 8k by mug out in wvw, this is just crazy on top of the other hits. 8k mug, 8k cloak and dagger, 8k+ backstab all in 1.5 seconds = anyone dead. Yes I know cloak and dagger recieved a nerf, but out in wvw I still get hit by the occasional 8k surprisingly. IMO mug should only be critting for 3k max, 8k is just silly.

You just ignored everything I said. Completely.

Auesis.7301:

Edenwolf.6328:

Auesis.7301:

On another note, Mug is also supposedly being nerfed. While I never use the burst build that incorporates it, what’s the point of having the trait at all if the damage is non-significant? Instead of doing damage at all, it should be something like a short knockback that steals one boon. That sounds more “Mug”-ish to me, and it can be incorporated in to multiple builds as it’s not for one cheesy burst that was the complaint the devs themselves had about the trait.

Ive been hit for 8k by mug out in wvw, this is just crazy on top of the other hits. 8k mug, 8k cloak and dagger, 8k+ backstab all in 1.5 seconds = anyone dead. Yes I know cloak and dagger recieved a nerf, but out in wvw I still get hit by the occasional 8k surprisingly. IMO mug should only be critting for 3k max, 8k is just silly.

You just ignored everything I said. Completely.

It would be pretty cool if Mug got the old Peg Leg effect attached to it… great for kittenin the JP.

If the proposed changes are to be made, then traits and utilities regarding stealth need to be re-looked at.

These are my opinions of course.

Hide in shadows – This should not be bound to any revealed debuff. It’s one of our main heals and a signature of what a thief is, plus other profession’s heals aren’t penalized due to innate mechanics.

Last refuge, Instinctual Response – In order for these to be worthwhile, they shouldn’t be bound to any revealed debuff either, for them to work as advertised (and we do not have a choice whether we use it or not if we put points into Shadow Arts in Last Refuge’s case. It’s almost a detriment in many situations)

Hard to Catch – This can stay as-is, if they make a change that if you have the revealed debuff while it’s triggered, you still get the movement portion of it and get a stun break, Aegis or Protection perhaps. It has a 60 second CD, so it should be worth something, especially since it’s a grandmaster trait.

Then there are the indirect little nerfs that will affect us, such as might on stealth. This means less stacks in the long run, as the longer we can’t stealth, the less often we can re-apply those stacks. Maybe add a couple seconds duration to each stack to compensate so there isn’t a change in overall duration.

The same could be said for our regen upon entering stealth, and other benefits in the shadow arts line.

Anet really needs to take a look at how this change will affect thieves on the micro scale, and not just make a sweeping change and hope for the best. Even if they don’t give any buffs like they commented on, making adjustments is almost mandatory imo, to try to keep things balanced.

Sebrent.3625:

Without getting to play with it, the change from this basically just means that every time someone stealths, you know there will be a 3 second window in which they cannot stealth.

Those fighting a thief should plan to use the first 2 seconds for damage and maybe CC the 3rd sec to keep the thief unstealthed longer.

Those fighting as a thief should plan to use dodge rolls, interrupts, etc. during those 3 seconds.

As I said before, it could be good, but it could also not be enough or be too much of a nerf. It also affects Mesmers.

Sebrent I understand that mesmers will be affected, don’t get me wrong, but thieves get hit much harder since stealthing in a lot of builds is like our bread and butter.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Sebrent.3625:

Without getting to play with it, the change from this basically just means that every time someone stealths, you know there will be a 3 second window in which they cannot stealth.

Those fighting a thief should plan to use the first 2 seconds for damage and maybe CC the 3rd sec to keep the thief unstealthed longer.

Those fighting as a thief should plan to use dodge rolls, interrupts, etc. during those 3 seconds.

As I said before, it could be good, but it could also not be enough or be too much of a nerf. It also affects Mesmers.

Sebrent I understand that mesmers will be affected, don’t get me wrong, but thieves get hit much harder since stealthing in a lot of builds is like our bread and butter.

It’s extremely marginal.
Just played a few games. This will not be significant.

Yay! Finally some good news. So happy about that, even though I don’t have a thief.

ensoriki.5789:

RedSpectrum.1975:

Sebrent.3625:

Without getting to play with it, the change from this basically just means that every time someone stealths, you know there will be a 3 second window in which they cannot stealth.

Those fighting a thief should plan to use the first 2 seconds for damage and maybe CC the 3rd sec to keep the thief unstealthed longer.

Those fighting as a thief should plan to use dodge rolls, interrupts, etc. during those 3 seconds.

As I said before, it could be good, but it could also not be enough or be too much of a nerf. It also affects Mesmers.

Sebrent I understand that mesmers will be affected, don’t get me wrong, but thieves get hit much harder since stealthing in a lot of builds is like our bread and butter.

It’s extremely marginal.
Just played a few games. This will not be significant.

I mean to be clear, in a typical scenario this wont be too bad, you figure backstabbing when a bit of those auto attacks and 3 seconds will be up like that. But if you have to use HiS, this may be room for complaint, and last refuge, and descent to shadows

Yay! Finally some good news. So happy about that, even though I don’t have a thief.

And youre happy about it because you dont have a thief.

Not quite, because if you use HiS after a backstab you have reveal on you regardless.

If your using HiS after you flee, than you have 3s of untargetted time to maneuver and remove yourself from the equation. Once those mobility buffs come in this should be be better, even if they don’t it’s honestly easy enough with Shadowstep/IA/inf strike+ Shadow return.

The significance is really if you use HiS mid battle and then plan to follow immediately after with Cnd+Steal. In which case it’ll flop If you backstab however during the HiS and use it’s stealth offensively, then again no change.

It diminishes the ability to use stealth back-to-back at whim, and puts it into a temporary strategic decision.

Im very glad they acknowledged some thief sets have trash mobility (P/P).

Auesis.7301:

Edenwolf.6328:

Auesis.7301:

On another note, Mug is also supposedly being nerfed. While I never use the burst build that incorporates it, what’s the point of having the trait at all if the damage is non-significant? Instead of doing damage at all, it should be something like a short knockback that steals one boon. That sounds more “Mug”-ish to me, and it can be incorporated in to multiple builds as it’s not for one cheesy burst that was the complaint the devs themselves had about the trait.

Ive been hit for 8k by mug out in wvw, this is just crazy on top of the other hits. 8k mug, 8k cloak and dagger, 8k+ backstab all in 1.5 seconds = anyone dead. Yes I know cloak and dagger recieved a nerf, but out in wvw I still get hit by the occasional 8k surprisingly. IMO mug should only be critting for 3k max, 8k is just silly.

You just ignored everything I said. Completely.

Im sorry I wasnt more clear, I was just pointing out that reducing it from 8k potential damage to 3k max would still keep it useful if they were to keep the trait as is.

Edenwolf.6328:

Auesis.7301:

Edenwolf.6328:

Auesis.7301:

On another note, Mug is also supposedly being nerfed. While I never use the burst build that incorporates it, what’s the point of having the trait at all if the damage is non-significant? Instead of doing damage at all, it should be something like a short knockback that steals one boon. That sounds more “Mug”-ish to me, and it can be incorporated in to multiple builds as it’s not for one cheesy burst that was the complaint the devs themselves had about the trait.

Ive been hit for 8k by mug out in wvw, this is just crazy on top of the other hits. 8k mug, 8k cloak and dagger, 8k+ backstab all in 1.5 seconds = anyone dead. Yes I know cloak and dagger recieved a nerf, but out in wvw I still get hit by the occasional 8k surprisingly. IMO mug should only be critting for 3k max, 8k is just silly.

You just ignored everything I said. Completely.

Im sorry I wasnt more clear, I was just pointing out that reducing it from 8k potential damage to 3k max would still keep it useful if they were to keep the trait as is.

It would make it a useless trait, since it does less damage then auto-attack does.

Mug does about 504 base damage.

Autoattack does 269-437

Your wanting mug to deal about 201 damage.

So basicly, less damage then autoattack?

Steal has a 45 second cooldown, so every 45 seconds I can deal less damage then sword Autoattack, HOW IS THAT A USEFUL TRAIT?!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Air Would out damage “Mug.” and it has a 5 second cooldown, how does that even make sense?

It would be useful because it’s an upfront burst of damage.
I don’t see the point in making suggestions.
Unless Sundering strikes is improved, Mug will be kept (or should be) somewhat proportional to it at an upfront burst vs the increase over time that is Sundering Strikes.

Personally, I don’t chain stealth a lot, but I can see that this can be an issue when I CnD someone, and they decide to run quickly away before I can backstab them. With this change, I won’t be able to get back in stealth for a BS for 3s, which is rather game changing.

If this goes through, won’t they have to revert the lowered damage of CnD that was originally put in because people chained CnD for damage?

This also prevents the certain playstyle of thieves tailing zergs and spying, and confusing the enemy lol. :/

If they do indeed have this go through, then they’ll have to buff cnd back to what it was back then.

ensoriki.5789:

It would be useful because it’s an upfront burst of damage.
I don’t see the point in making suggestions.
Unless Sundering strikes is improved, Mug will be kept (or should be) somewhat proportional to it at an upfront burst vs the increase over time that is Sundering Strikes.

Change Mug to do less then half its current damage.

Mug
Damage: 202
10 Vulnerability: 10 s
Knockdown: 2 s

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

It would be useful because it’s an upfront burst of damage.
I don’t see the point in making suggestions.
Unless Sundering strikes is improved, Mug will be kept (or should be) somewhat proportional to it at an upfront burst vs the increase over time that is Sundering Strikes.

Change Mug to do less then half its current damage.

Mug
Damage: 202
10 Vulnerability: 10 s
Knockdown: 2 s

You’re a funny poster.

ensoriki.5789:

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

It would be useful because it’s an upfront burst of damage.
I don’t see the point in making suggestions.
Unless Sundering strikes is improved, Mug will be kept (or should be) somewhat proportional to it at an upfront burst vs the increase over time that is Sundering Strikes.

Change Mug to do less then half its current damage.

Mug
Damage: 202
10 Vulnerability: 10 s
Knockdown: 2 s

You’re a funny poster.

Sorry, it wasn’t powerful enough.

Mug
Steals two defensive boons from the target, giving it to the Thief.
Damage: 202
Knockdown: 2 s

While I agree this will affect Mesmers less than Thieves, I think people are blowing this way out of proportion. Most of you are always telling others that you can expect a backstab when the Thief stealths. If that’s the case, you could also expect that Thief to have Revealed when they popped out of stealth from using backstab.

The only thing that changes is that now when you pop out, it doesn’t matter if it was because you backstabbed, tactical_striked, etc. or stealth just wore off, you’ll be revealed. So according to what has been told to those who have complained about the thief class, this isn’t an issue.

… or the advice given about thieves wasn’t completely honest. Catch-22 thieves :-)

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

It would be useful because it’s an upfront burst of damage.
I don’t see the point in making suggestions.
Unless Sundering strikes is improved, Mug will be kept (or should be) somewhat proportional to it at an upfront burst vs the increase over time that is Sundering Strikes.

Change Mug to do less then half its current damage.

Mug
Damage: 202
10 Vulnerability: 10 s
Knockdown: 2 s

You’re a funny poster.

Sorry, it wasn’t powerful enough.

Mug
Steals two defensive boons from the target, giving it to the Thief.
Damage: 202
Knockdown: 2 s

That would be even more irritating than the spike Mug already had. Now you don’t even need Basilisk Venom if you want to guarantee your Backstab.

I can see it already:

1) C+D prep
2) Steal
3) Target is knocked down
4) Free Backstab
5) Spam HS

What it offers in both your suggestion and in the original form was too much for an Adept trait. A boon steal and a knockBACK, not a knockDOWN, without damage at all, would be more than sufficient.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Sebrent.3625:

Without getting to play with it, the change from this basically just means that every time someone stealths, you know there will be a 3 second window in which they cannot stealth.

Those fighting a thief should plan to use the first 2 seconds for damage and maybe CC the 3rd sec to keep the thief unstealthed longer.

Those fighting as a thief should plan to use dodge rolls, interrupts, etc. during those 3 seconds.

As I said before, it could be good, but it could also not be enough or be too much of a nerf. It also affects Mesmers.

Sebrent I understand that mesmers will be affected, don’t get me wrong, but thieves get hit much harder since stealthing in a lot of builds is like our bread and butter.

I think it’s going to hit my Mesmer much harder than my Thief. The reason is I almost always attack from stealth on my Thief. On my Mesmer it’s only once in a while and most of the time I’m timing it with Torch#4’s explosion which happens after stealth anyway. So, my memser has never been hit by reveil in any meaningful way before. Now I’ll have to really pay attention to when I can decoy and torch4/MassInvis. If you are trying to run by stacking stealth and mass invis a half second too late (long cast time) you could end up blowing a 90 sec CD into reveal which would never have happened before.

Edenwolf.6328:

Ive been hit for 8k by mug out in wvw, this is just crazy on top of the other hits. 8k mug, 8k cloak and dagger, 8k+ backstab all in 1.5 seconds = anyone dead. Yes I know cloak and dagger recieved a nerf, but out in wvw I still get hit by the occasional 8k surprisingly. IMO mug should only be critting for 3k max, 8k is just silly.

I always have a hard time figuring why people make comments like this about the burst combo… 8k+8k+8k… I’ve heard 10k+10k+10k too, both from victims of the combo and even from thieves themselves exaggerating about how hard they hit someone.

To start, the abilities don’t hit for the same damage. Backstab hits substantially harder than the others. Mug and C&D both hit for about the same as the middle damage tier on Heartseeker – basically a medium direct damage quantity. It just doesn’t make sense to claim that they all crit and all did roughly the same damage.

Second… Even for backstab to crit for 8k, you have to either hit a nearly paper thin target (little or no toughness), have damage cooldown (signet) and buffs, or have gear with an obscene amount of crit multiplier – or some combination of all that. To have the other two abilities both crit for that much (and backstab obviously for even more because it hits harder) you pretty much need celestial alignment.

It’s enough to complain about the combo with realistic numbers. Something like 4k Mug crit + 7.2k Backstab crit + 1.8k C&D non-crit (no particular order) on a decently built character. 13k in nearly an instant is worth complaining about.

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

It would be useful because it’s an upfront burst of damage.
I don’t see the point in making suggestions.
Unless Sundering strikes is improved, Mug will be kept (or should be) somewhat proportional to it at an upfront burst vs the increase over time that is Sundering Strikes.

Change Mug to do less then half its current damage.

Mug
Damage: 202
10 Vulnerability: 10 s
Knockdown: 2 s

You’re a funny poster.

Sorry, it wasn’t powerful enough.

Mug
Steals two defensive boons from the target, giving it to the Thief.
Damage: 202
Knockdown: 2 s

There’s a 30 point tickery trait that gives steal 1s daze as a bonus effect. While i still think this trait is not as powerful as it should be, gutting it with a far superior 10 point one isn’t a good idea.

It’s enough to complain about the combo with realistic numbers. Something like 4k Mug crit + 7.2k Backstab crit + 1.8k C&D non-crit (no particular order) on a decently built character. 13k in nearly an instant is worth complaining about.

Glass on glass is more like 6.5-7.5k Mug, 6-8k CND, 9-14k backstab, just under 2k air proc.

In WvW at least, since you can get +110% crit damage without too much trouble. which you can’t in sPvP.