Guild Wars 2

EasymodeX.4062:

It’s enough to complain about the combo with realistic numbers. Something like 4k Mug crit + 7.2k Backstab crit + 1.8k C&D non-crit (no particular order) on a decently built character. 13k in nearly an instant is worth complaining about.

Glass on glass is more like 6.5-7.5k Mug, 6-8k CND, 9-14k backstab, just under 2k air proc.

In WvW at least, since you can get +110% crit damage without too much trouble. which you can’t in sPvP.

Why use Glass on Glass numbers though? It’s extreme and represents a small minority of real situations…plus the targets are probably dead after the 12k damage taken anyway. It has no more value than giving bunker vs. bunker numbers on the other end of the spectrum that are half as big as the ones I used.

Plus, it’s not reasonable to complain about someone winning statistical lotteries and getting all crits. Even if they are GC geared with 50% crit chance, it’s only 1/8 chance to get all crits, and folks running those type of builds to hit that hard aren’t using Hidden Killer. For people running reasonable gear, they’re looking at more like 2% chance, maybe less.

Because it’s a good baseline. Not only is it possible and semi-likely depending on your opinion, but you can use the numbers to interpolate damage against targets with toughness, protection, etc.

Furthermore, the exception context is not “non-Berserker”. It’s any build that doesn’t use toughness in particular. Hence Carrion, Valkyrie, and other gear compositions that have no/low toughness will also be hit with the same damage levels. Thus, that level of damage is more common than most Thieves want to advertise (if they ran with max DPS).

It’s the same discussion as why you don’t see Mesmers advertising that they can do 4k crits on their autoattack, 8k on their phantasms, or 12k+ shatters.

This stealth nerf is absolutely nothing. Heaven forbid you actually have to think about anything other than damage stats on your thief. The ONLY people impacted this are the ones that abused stealth to begin with. Otherwise those of us that didn’t abuse stealth won’t really notice it. I run with blinding power, shadow refuge and even C&D some myself and I know it won’t be an issue. I already space my stealths out, I don’t want to be that perma-stealth abusing thief that has zero skill outside stealth. Of course I can see why those that do abuse it are upset, now they need to actually learn to play the class and won’t see huge numbers because they will have to pick up some defense.

^There is no need to make any defense adjustments.

EasymodeX.4062:

Because it’s a good baseline. Not only is it possible and semi-likely depending on your opinion, but you can use the numbers to interpolate damage against targets with toughness, protection, etc.

Furthermore, the exception context is not “non-Berserker”. It’s any build that doesn’t use toughness in particular. Hence Carrion, Valkyrie, and other gear compositions that have no/low toughness will also be hit with the same damage levels. Thus, that level of damage is more common than most Thieves want to advertise (if they ran with max DPS).

It’s the same discussion as why you don’t see Mesmers advertising that they can do 4k crits on their autoattack, 8k on their phantasms, or 12k+ shatters.

Possible, yes. Semi-likely…basic statistical analysis on getting 3 crit rolls eliminates that by itself. It’s more like “semi-likely at being possible” based on the number of people that run low toughness.

And if a player runs a paper build, it’s partly their own fault (or at least a calculated choice) and any class can hit them for obscene numbers.

I play a thief myself and I honestly don’t see what all the fuss is about.

Ok, the Revealed buff on exiting stealth is going to make some traits a bit ickier, such as Last Refuge. It will also put a pretty decent dent on D/P permastealthers. And, of course, it’ll make it so that you cannot just use CnD or smoke fields to get indefinite stealth.

But majority of thieves actually use their stealth skills. P/D uses it, D/D uses it, D/P uses it and S/D uses it. So for those purposes, the change doesn’t do anything: you were already getting Revealed.

As for Mug, changing it makes sense. The only purpose it served was to get a 900 range teleport that dealt ridiculous damage. The only thing it really does is make CnD+Backstab comboing even more ridiculous. So even if they made it so that Mug dealt negligible damage, it’d be just fine.

Because it’s a good baseline. Not only is it possible and semi-likely depending on your opinion, but you can use the numbers to interpolate damage against targets with toughness, protection, etc.

It’s only a good baseline if you use it properly. Right now, people are using the gc vs gc figures as some kind of “average”, which it obviously isn’t. The numbers that gc vs gc fights produce are maximums, so the average damage you’ll get is going to be lower. In most cases, it’ll be much, much lower.

And even then, there’s some shadiness in those numbers. Are we talking one, two or three crits? Are we talking 100% crit rate from stealth or 20% damage increase when target has less than 50% hp?

Olba.5376:

So even if they made it so that Mug dealt negligible damage, it’d be just fine.

I agree, however it would also be a negligible value trait at that point. They would need to replace it with something else or just put some sort of alternate effect on the trait.

Olba.5376:

I play a thief myself and I honestly don’t see what all the fuss is about.

Ok, the Revealed buff on exiting stealth is going to make some traits a bit ickier, such as Last Refuge. It will also put a pretty decent dent on D/P permastealthers. And, of course, it’ll make it so that you cannot just use CnD or smoke fields to get indefinite stealth.

But majority of thieves actually use their stealth skills. P/D uses it, D/D uses it, D/P uses it and S/D uses it. So for those purposes, the change doesn’t do anything: you were already getting Revealed.

As for Mug, changing it makes sense. The only purpose it served was to get a 900 range teleport that dealt ridiculous damage. The only thing it really does is make CnD+Backstab comboing even more ridiculous. So even if they made it so that Mug dealt negligible damage, it’d be just fine.

Because it’s a good baseline. Not only is it possible and semi-likely depending on your opinion, but you can use the numbers to interpolate damage against targets with toughness, protection, etc.

It’s only a good baseline if you use it properly. Right now, people are using the gc vs gc figures as some kind of “average”, which it obviously isn’t. The numbers that gc vs gc fights produce are maximums, so the average damage you’ll get is going to be lower. In most cases, it’ll be much, much lower.

And even then, there’s some shadiness in those numbers. Are we talking one, two or three crits? Are we talking 100% crit rate from stealth or 20% damage increase when target has less than 50% hp?

You’re missing one of the key points. CnD and others did get revealed but sometimes CnD and other skills are used defensively i.e massive zerg headed my way and I find myself in the middle. The point is that we will get essentially punished for skills like Hide in Shadows or traits like Last refuge. If we CnD offensively and they evade our backstabs, thats another 3 seconds.

Olba.5376:

I play a thief myself and I honestly don’t see what all the fuss is about.

Ok, the Revealed buff on exiting stealth is going to make some traits a bit ickier, such as Last Refuge.

That’s one of the major things, it’s further restricting builds by making traits (That currently aren’t too great) even worse, including a 5 point minor trait that is forced upon anyone who goes into the stealth line.

It also forces the basic heal – Hide in Shadows – make you to become vulnerable for 3 seconds when using it (While currently, if you don’t attack while in the stealth you are free to re-stealth after it fades)

Olba.5376:

But majority of thieves actually use their stealth skills. P/D uses it, D/D uses it, D/P uses it and S/D uses it. So for those purposes, the change doesn’t do anything: you were already getting Revealed.

As far as combat goes, the difference will be minor but if you attempt to use a stealth skill and it gets dodged? Well, not only is your damage from the attack negated but you cannot restealth for another 3 seconds.

If some changes are being made that they’re suggesting revolving around lowering base damage but giving boon hate mechanics then it’ll force more damage to come from stealth attacks (Thus making the dodged attacks forcing revealed even worse)

While the positive aspects from the change:

No CnD cheese.
Stealth Stomping becomes suicide if other people are around (Unless using Shadow Refuge) – Which isn’t really positive from the point of view of a thief, but in the eyes of other classes it does get some complaints.
…
…
That’s all I can think of.

Taril.8619:

Olba.5376:

I play a thief myself and I honestly don’t see what all the fuss is about.

Ok, the Revealed buff on exiting stealth is going to make some traits a bit ickier, such as Last Refuge.

That’s one of the major things, it’s further restricting builds by making traits (That currently aren’t too great) even worse, including a 5 point minor trait that is forced upon anyone who goes into the stealth line.

It also forces the basic heal – Hide in Shadows – make you to become vulnerable for 3 seconds when using it (While currently, if you don’t attack while in the stealth you are free to re-stealth after it fades)

Olba.5376:

But majority of thieves actually use their stealth skills. P/D uses it, D/D uses it, D/P uses it and S/D uses it. So for those purposes, the change doesn’t do anything: you were already getting Revealed.

As far as combat goes, the difference will be minor but if you attempt to use a stealth skill and it gets dodged? Well, not only is your damage from the attack negated but you cannot restealth for another 3 seconds.

If some changes are being made that they’re suggesting revolving around lowering base damage but giving boon hate mechanics then it’ll force more damage to come from stealth attacks (Thus making the dodged attacks forcing revealed even worse)

While the positive aspects from the change:

No CnD cheese.
Stealth Stomping becomes suicide if other people are around (Unless using Shadow Refuge) – Which isn’t really positive from the point of view of a thief, but in the eyes of other classes it does get some complaints.
…
…
That’s all I can think of.

The stealth stomping part isnt entirely true. It can and will still be done. I actually see little change in this safety procedure. Looking at it down to the wire, You come out of stealth right as the flag lands, and stay in that bad kitten pose for almost a second. This gives you two seconds of evasion time to re stealth

The end of Zerg lowbees slaying.

Gamblit.5041:

Olba.5376:

I play a thief myself and I honestly don’t see what all the fuss is about.

Ok, the Revealed buff on exiting stealth is going to make some traits a bit ickier, such as Last Refuge. It will also put a pretty decent dent on D/P permastealthers. And, of course, it’ll make it so that you cannot just use CnD or smoke fields to get indefinite stealth.

But majority of thieves actually use their stealth skills. P/D uses it, D/D uses it, D/P uses it and S/D uses it. So for those purposes, the change doesn’t do anything: you were already getting Revealed.

You don’t see it do you?
They are puting Stealth on a Cooldown mechanic. It’s a game breaking event for the Thief proffession.

Speak for yourself…

I just wanna see how they will make us more slippery than an ele is now O.O

Hopefully that’ll happen in this same patch and thief won’t just get nerfed without anything to help balance it out.

With their POV on guardians being boon warriors and being fine as they are though… when other classes generate/stack boons better than a guardian does… and no mention of giving a guardian a good long ranged weapon (don’t make me lol @ scepter)… and a buff to eng turrets of all things >.> it makes me lack faith in these devs. Jeeze even the mesmers were like… “Don’t you think that a peircing beam might be op?” & they basically answered “We dunno? Lets wait and see…” Seriously… what the frick… They just seemed SO clueless. I don’t know how much more obvious it is that this game needs a test server. Instead we just have to deal with this stuff as is without any tweaking/feedback -.-

Thankfully I have alts so I can deal with these potentially massive nerf/buffs. I just wish they would sort everything out… Until then I’ll just keep holding onto my laurels/gold/globs/etc so I don’t invest in ascended/legendary gear just to have that class/spec nerfed into the ground and all of those hours wasted. Seriously it’s getting REALLY old at this point.

Taril.8619:

It also forces the basic heal – Hide in Shadows – make you to become vulnerable for 3 seconds when using it (While currently, if you don’t attack while in the stealth you are free to re-stealth after it fades)

Well hopefully that’ll make people consider the other heals. Because let’s face it, there’s very few people who use Withdraw or Signet of Malice. Heck, if they added the condition removals of Hide in Shadows to Signet of Malice, I could see tons of people using it, myself included.

As far as combat goes, the difference will be minor but if you attempt to use a stealth skill and it gets dodged? Well, not only is your damage from the attack negated but you cannot restealth for another 3 seconds.

But I don’t think that’s such a bad thing. You failed at doing your job, you should pay a price. Any other class would be faced with a cooldown, whereas a Thief all we get is a negligible cost in initiative.

Honestly, it’s not going to have much of an effect on the D/D Backstabbers, which I find funny considering that they specifically mentioned that build in that context. It also won’t have much of an effect on P/D Sneak Attack setups, other than making sure that they don’t just apply bleeds and then stealth for 8 seconds to wait for the bleeds to tick while healing 5k hp.

Maybe because I do not rely on chain stealth, I do not think think this will hinder me playing my Thief. Obviously I use stealth in circumstances where I am about to die and need to run away. I also use it to stealth a fallen ally and myself to rez. But, other than that I can’t think of an instance where I depend on chain stealth to beat someone.
If you are a Thief that loves to run a build where you are stealthed 80% of a fight, using conditions + C&D over and over and over to wear down your opponents without ever worrying about dying, then sure, I bet you are not too happy with this change.

Even if this changes my desire to run as a D/P thief, then I will just move onto another weapon set that’s less dependent on stealth.

(Being that I PUG 100% of my spvp/tpvp games(and don’t WvW), I usually only see two types of thieves. The BS → HS till you are dead Thief, and the condition stacking, I’m just going to stealth over and over till you are dead Thief. Rarely are there other builds that I see. Yesterday I saw a Pistol Whip Thief, it blew my mind as I couldn’t think of the last time I ran up against one of those specs.)

Out of all the ways they could have nerfed stealth, this is the best way they could have. Thieves who stay on the attack will be mostly untouched because they’ll have gotten revealed anyways. Out right vanishing when the fight goes bad will be harder to do, but we’ve still got Shadowsteps, speed and Roll for Initiative, and there’s still terrain to hide behind.

i have seen my playstyle beeing nerfed twice ,i think i will be able to adept again in one more change.Maybe now playing a thief will be a bigger challenge and maybe all the qq will stop.Cant wait for the new patch

It seems that nobody is actually reading the comments in this topic…..most of you just come here to say how happy you are with the nerf just shows how incompetent you are playing against thieves as I’ve seen plenty of people handle thieves with any class.

It’s a learn to play issue and the real problem will be dealt with the culling fix.

grind.3681:

i have seen my playstyle beeing nerfed twice ,i think i will be able to adept again in one more change.Maybe now playing a thief will be a bigger challenge and maybe all the qq will stop.Cant wait for the new patch

This will not be the last change I bet, and the complaints will continue unabated in anycase.

As for the alluded “buffs” I doubt we’ll see them. The track record for this sort of thing seems poor. And should they actually materialize…they will be used again as further proof the class must be nerfed. It will just feed the nerf frenzy.

Just irks me that I don’t even play this pvp/wvw type of play yet my toon gets altered like the weather due to the endless nerf cycle. It gets old.

As far as I can tell this + culling will hopefully get rid of all the bad thieves who relied on using a tactic which was borderline exploitation. I’m all for a stealthy class but there’s no fun in fighting something which hits like a truck and appears so little you can blink and miss them (hyperbole but you get the point) Pretty sure most of the the thieves who are upset the most don’t realise you can dodge in this game since they relied on almost perma stealth.

Can’t wait so can finally see more thieves who don’t abuse mechanics If I’m gonna die to a thief, it would be nice to actually see them for once!

nglcpyro.4906:

As far as I can tell this + culling will hopefully get rid of all the bad thieves who relied on using a tactic which was borderline exploitation. I’m all for a stealthy class but there’s no fun in fighting something which hits like a truck and appears so little you can blink and miss them (hyperbole but you get the point) Pretty sure most of the the thieves who are upset the most don’t realise you can dodge in this game since they relied on almost perma stealth.

Can’t wait so can finally see more thieves who don’t abuse mechanics If I’m gonna die to a thief, it would be nice to actually see them for once!

It’s hard imagine thieves NOT dodging..but as I don’t do wvw I do not know what goes on exactly, and can’t say.

But…wow, I never stand still in pve….I can’t imagine not dodging/evading a lot. My friends are quite amused at my antics. They don’t quite get that a thief just HAS to dodge and be very mobile…except for one friend, who recently made a thief and is learning the hard way!

They mentioned changes to mobility in discussing this patch ; it would be cool to see some added ability to evade/dodge or something. I just have my doubts that this will happen, though.

I have the awful feeling that after the changes are made ,the outcry will still continue…..and things will be as rancorous as ever. I’d like to be wrong about that, and just see people have some fun for a change. But it is hard to be optimistic.

^ Exactly. Find a few other games (non MMO) not as fun now simply because I can’t dodge. “Bad” thieves would just stealth instead of dodge cos no need to dodge if opponent can’t see you most of the time(hyperbole) Only hurts them in the long run as dodging is an essential part of the game and everything is based on the fact it’s possible to do so.

Oh well, well see after the patch what happens. QQ will be from those who can’t adapt and if the posts in this thread are anything to go by, players who didn’t rely as much on stealth could potentially be buffed in a big way as long as the class changes don’t mess things up a lot. Nothing more terrifying than thieves who don’t rely on stealth or try instgib in 2 seconds since hey know how to play the class to its true potential.

Aervius.2016:

Good thing I just dropped my Shadow-Troll build and went back to CDBurst.
I’m on the fence about the change to Stealth, it could be exactly what is necessary to balance out the few remaining vestiges of “OP” that the Thief has.
(Shadowing an entire 5-man whilst simply spamming CnD every 4s to down someone without ever leaving Stealth for more than 1/2-1s was over the top. I’m sorry Troll Thieves, it is/was.)

More to the point, D/P Stealth sloots will still be able to do what they do best- there’s just no safety net to ease your fall if you kitten-up your Stealth rotation (*insert a clever comment about Risk/Return).

Personally, I’m running a D/D + SB build and I usually spend most of my time in SB anyway, relegating D/D to ONLY the Burst rotation (i.e. the downing of my target), then quickly back to SB while I wait on my cooldowns to come up.

I will say that 3s of Revealed for popping HiS is a tad steep- maybe a revitalized trait from BWE2 might be just what the Thief needs to compliment the surge in ‘No-Stealth’ builds. My suggestion:

(Shadow Arts, Adept Tier)
Veiled Assault/Shadow’s Protection
Gain 3s of Protection and Regeneration whenever you are Revealed.

Really though, fellow Thieves, this change will be inconsequential if you know your classes capabilities and deficiencies and compensate accordingly.

If you’re honestly telling us that 5 people don’t realize to use AOE to kill 1 thief that’s CnDering them…something is wrong with you.

Stealth is not a problem, it’s players whining and sucking at the game that’s a problem. The developers should not cater to this and nerf stealth because a bunch of bad players whine.

Stealth is a huge part of the thief class…otherwise what is the point…i’d play a warrior or guardian.

nglcpyro.4906:

^ Exactly. Find a few other games (non MMO) not as fun now simply because I can’t dodge. “Bad” thieves would just stealth instead of dodge cos no need to dodge if opponent can’t see you most of the time(hyperbole) Only hurts them in the long run as dodging is an essential part of the game and everything is based on the fact it’s possible to do so.

Oh well, well see after the patch what happens. QQ will be from those who can’t adapt and if the posts in this thread are anything to go by, players who didn’t rely as much on stealth could potentially be buffed in a big way as long as the class changes don’t mess things up a lot. Nothing more terrifying than thieves who don’t rely on stealth or try instgib in 2 seconds since hey know how to play the class to its true potential.

‘Good’ thieves use everything and play every spec. Removing a playstyle and buffing another has a net effect of removing a playstyle because we already play the other anyway.

i dont even want to hear about this….

I don’t even wanna talk about how i feel about this because i could get banned for it…
Just saying thx for the nerf.I can’t whait to see what is the next thing arena net will take away from thief.

Tbh I’m actually looking forward to these changes with some degree of expectation.
I see what they are doing and agree with it (I’m a thief myself and play with 30 in Shadow Arts). They mentioned how they want the thief to be the MOST mobile profession in game and take back that role from the ele (that has it all… mobility/dmg/bunker/healing).

BUT (there is always a but) although im exited about the upcoming changes I’m kind of afraid the “compensation” for losing stealthiness and in some degree survivability my be not enough since it it a company policy to not do drastic changes and tweak things little by little.

Punishing stealth builds by triggering Revealed every time one gets out of stealth (not only wen attacking wile in stealth) IS in fact a drastic change.

Will the “compensation” for such nerf be also drastic? or simply small tweaks here and there and we will only see some kind of compensation for this nerf after the next 3-4 patches considering the little by little policy?

Bah double post sorry.

Edenwolf.6328:

Daeqar.8965:

Edenwolf.6328:

Ive been hit for 8k by mug out in wvw, this is just crazy on top of the other hits. 8k mug, 8k cloak and dagger, 8k+ backstab all in 1.5 seconds = anyone dead. Yes I know cloak and dagger recieved a nerf, but out in wvw I still get hit by the occasional 8k surprisingly. IMO mug should only be critting for 3k max, 8k is just silly.

I always have a hard time figuring why people make comments like this about the burst combo… 8k+8k+8k… I’ve heard 10k+10k+10k too, both from victims of the combo and even from thieves themselves exaggerating about how hard they hit someone.

To start, the abilities don’t hit for the same damage. Backstab hits substantially harder than the others. Mug and C&D both hit for about the same as the middle damage tier on Heartseeker – basically a medium direct damage quantity. It just doesn’t make sense to claim that they all crit and all did roughly the same damage.

Second… Even for backstab to crit for 8k, you have to either hit a nearly paper thin target (little or no toughness), have damage cooldown (signet) and buffs, or have gear with an obscene amount of crit multiplier – or some combination of all that. To have the other two abilities both crit for that much (and backstab obviously for even more because it hits harder) you pretty much need celestial alignment.

It’s enough to complain about the combo with realistic numbers. Something like 4k Mug crit + 7.2k Backstab crit + 1.8k C&D non-crit (no particular order) on a decently built character. 13k in nearly an instant is worth complaining about.

I know they dont have same base values and no the numbers arnt exact, but those numbers are what they all AT LEAST hit me for within the 8000 range. It was more like 8.04, 8.3 and 8.9k. Its not impossible with variables like might stacking and assassin signent, I should mention he was running around with a friend and yes I instantly checked my combat log.

Volrath.1473:

Tbh I’m actually looking forward to these changes with some degree of expectation.
I see what they are doing and agree with it (I’m a thief myself and play with 30 in Shadow Arts). They mentioned how they want the thief to be the MOST mobile profession in game and take back that role from the ele (that has it all… mobility/dmg/bunker/healing).

BUT (there is always a but) although im exited about the upcoming changes I’m kind of afraid the “compensation” for losing stealthiness and in some degree survivability my be not enough since it it a company policy to not do drastic changes and tweak things little by little.

Punishing stealth builds by triggering Revealed every time one gets out of stealth (not only wen attacking wile in stealth) IS in fact a drastic change.

Will the “compensation” for such nerf be also drastic? or simply small tweaks here and there and we will only see some kind of compensation for this nerf after the next 3-4 patches considering the little by little policy?

Sounds to me like they may have to spec a little into survivability if they want to last longer like every other class. Being able to spec glass cannon and hide in stealth on command is a little too powerful IMO.

Edenwolf.6328:

Volrath.1473:

Tbh I’m actually looking forward to these changes with some degree of expectation.
I see what they are doing and agree with it (I’m a thief myself and play with 30 in Shadow Arts). They mentioned how they want the thief to be the MOST mobile profession in game and take back that role from the ele (that has it all… mobility/dmg/bunker/healing).

BUT (there is always a but) although im exited about the upcoming changes I’m kind of afraid the “compensation” for losing stealthiness and in some degree survivability my be not enough since it it a company policy to not do drastic changes and tweak things little by little.

Punishing stealth builds by triggering Revealed every time one gets out of stealth (not only wen attacking wile in stealth) IS in fact a drastic change.

Will the “compensation” for such nerf be also drastic? or simply small tweaks here and there and we will only see some kind of compensation for this nerf after the next 3-4 patches considering the little by little policy?

Sounds to me like they may have to spec a little into survivability if they want to last longer like every other class. Being able to spec glass cannon and hide in stealth on command is a little too powerful IMO.

Survivability on a thief is the stealth line. See the problem?

Faeyd.5094:

Survivability on a thief is the stealth line. See the problem?

Yup, I see it. The problem is that even with no points in the stealth line, stealth is still incredibly easy to access.

That’s what you meant right?

Sunflowers.1729:

Faeyd.5094:

Survivability on a thief is the stealth line. See the problem?

Yup, I see it. The problem is that even with no points in the stealth line, stealth is still incredibly easy to access.

That’s what you meant right?

With no points into the stealth line, the stealth doesn’t provide much in terms of surviving. The stealth line provides condition removing and pretty decent life regen while in stealth, not to mention easier access to stealth due to lower initiative costs.

Thieves are not invincible while in stealth. Knockbacks, knockdowns, immobilizes, dazes, stuns, AoEs all work wonderfully against a thief.

Olba.5376:

Thieves are not invincible while in stealth. Knockbacks, knockdowns, immobilizes, dazes, stuns, AoEs all work wonderfully against a thief.

No. 1 excuse Thieves are using that stealth is not overpowered. The problem is, you can’t see the Thief, so you don’t know where, when to hit, and when you hit, how do you know you have hitted him?

Sunflowers.1729:

Faeyd.5094:

Survivability on a thief is the stealth line. See the problem?

Yup, I see it. The problem is that even with no points in the stealth line, stealth is still incredibly easy to access.

That’s what you meant right?

do you honestly believe that with the change to Reveled thieves will have less access to stealth?! I didn’t heard anything about stealth abilities being removed from the game, it will still stack, and the cooldowns are the same so sorry… I guess you’ll have to complaint a bit more.

this changes will make it a lot harder for a thief to survive wile in a numerical disadvantage situation (wvwvw, 2v1 3v2 5v3 etc.)

on a 1v1 this will change nothing on a thief game-play since he is always braking its own stealth by attacking thus triggering Reveled debuff anyway.

I can easily adapt to this nerf, no prob, what worries me is not knowing what will be done to compensate the thieves for this survivability nerf.
Something about increasing mobility besides the mandatory Shorbow which is a good thing but by itself wont be enough of a compensation i believe….

Riselight.3695:

Olba.5376:

Thieves are not invincible while in stealth. Knockbacks, knockdowns, immobilizes, dazes, stuns, AoEs all work wonderfully against a thief.

No. 1 excuse Thieves are using that stealth is not overpowered. The problem is, you can’t see the Thief, so you don’t know where, when to hit, and when you hit, how do you know you have hitted him?

well if you have played this game for more that a week you should KNOW by now that if the thief is stealthed, he is positioning himself behind you or one of your friends…

is it really that hard to predict were the thief will be? i have zero problems with that. wile fighting other thieves i ALWAYS pull of a CnD on them wile they ARE in stealth and that is a melee attack so why wouldn’t any other profession learn how to do it? specially the ones with AoE capabilities?

… aw yeah… it is allot easier to come to the forums and complaint that actually train yourself and learn how to counter other professions…

Riselight.3695:

No. 1 excuse Thieves are using that stealth is not overpowered. The problem is, you can’t see the Thief, so you don’t know where, when to hit, and when you hit, how do you know you have hitted him?

The where is about experience. If you know how a thief plays, you know where they will be going.

The when is a no-brainer: You do it right now.

As for how to know that you hit them. The simplest way is to use your 1 skill, because if you hit the thief, it’ll begin the rotation.

And as a thief myself, I’ll tell you one thing. If you’re using CCs like immobilizes, knockbacks, knockdowns, cripples, chills, it’s going to be effective.

And honestly, a thief is going to stealth for one of two reasons. Either they’re running away or they’re going for a stealth attack. There’s exactly two stealth skills that do not benefit from being behind your enemy: Sneak Attack and Surprise Shot. So in all likelihood, the Thief will try to get to your backside for the increased effect.

Riselight.3695:

The problem is, you can’t see the Thief

While that is true, it’s not the major thing people make it out to be.

so you don’t know where

I generally do know where to attack when a Thief uses stealth, they’re either running directly towards the back of either myself or a nearby ally or they’re running directly away/towards the nearest cover to break LoS and escape.

The easiest time to hit a Thief is if they’re using Shadow Refuge, as it paints a very noticeable circle that they cannot move out of (If they do they lose stealth and get revealed) thus confining where they can be stood (Also AoE’s can be planted down inside it, can even use Knockbacks to push them out forcing the revealed onto them)

Then if you manage to get Cripple/Chill/Immobilise/Knockdown/Knockback/Stun off onto them you can further ensure that they won’t be moving very far (The only issue can come from the condi-removal in stealth that triggers instantly then once per 3 seconds. But not all specs use that trait and if covered with another condition it only has a chance of getting the movement impairing effect)

when to hit

When to hit is all the time, just mash #1 and chances are you’ll hit a Thief with most of them.

and when you hit, how do you know you have hitted him?

The way you know when you’ve hit them is because:

Any weapon with a chain attack on it’s #1 will progress through the chain on a successful attack.

After 3-4 seconds you’ll notice a Thief lying on the floor trying to revive themself due to being downed by various hits coming at them that they can’t avoid (Stealth neither reduces nor avoids damage meaning if damage isn’t dodged it’s taken in full)

When WvWing on any of my characters, I kill more Thieves than any other profession (Rivalled only by Rangers due to the sheer number of them) it doesn’t even matter what build they’ve gone for, it’s just so easy to shut down their stealth once you realise common movement patterns for stealth (It lasts for between 3-4 seconds at most outside Shadow Refuge, they’ll want to use their stealth attack before it wears off and so will try to reach your back (Backstab/Tactical Strike)

This of course isn’t taking into account the ability to shut down them getting into stealth when they’re using Dagger offhand (S/D, P/D, D/D) as it’s a melee attack with a decently long animation that can be spotted and therefore dodged/interrupted.

Maybe it’s now time for all non thief players to say: L2p
At least thats what you always told us, when we complained about thieves.

Despina.6970:

Maybe it’s now time for all non thief players to say: L2p
At least thats what you always told us, when we complained about thieves.

I can guarantee that even if they do nerf stealth the majority of people who complained on these forums about stealth still will complain due to still not having learnt that stealth isn’t invincibility and instant death to all.

Daeqar.8965:

\Why use Glass on Glass numbers though?

Glass D/D >>> ALL.

Ah well, yett another nerf to my S/D build where it will end up in a worse position than the rest.

All in all, exactly what the theif needed. ANet hit the nail on the head- doing massive burst whilst only appearing for a fraction of a second is not balanced, nor is having the highest burst DPS, highest mobility, and ability to stealth for 90% of the time all in one class.

Theif still has much more than, say, tf2 spy- where the high mobility was sequestered to a separate class (scout), and one had to wait through a reveal exiting stealth before they could attack at all.

All said though, this should bring better balance to the game. If it does indeed turn out to be overkill, I’m sure ANet will react acordingly.

Piogre.2164:

All in all, exactly what the theif needed. ANet hit the nail on the head- doing massive burst whilst only appearing for a fraction of a second is not balanced, nor is having the highest burst DPS, highest mobility, and ability to stealth for 90% of the time all in one class.

Theif still has much more than, say, tf2 spy- where the high mobility was sequestered to a separate class (scout), and one had to wait through a reveal exiting stealth before they could attack at all.

All said though, this should bring better balance to the game. If it does indeed turn out to be overkill, I’m sure ANet will react acordingly.

WAT

?!“Having the highest burst DPS, highest mobility”?!

Thats kinda funny considering the devs themselves said that Ele is filling the mobility role intended for thieves… also not the highest burst in the game, perhaps one of the more difficult to avoid bursts, but by far not the highest

Application of the revealed debuff, regardless of whether or not you broke stealth with an attack, and a substantial nerf to Mug have both been badly, badly needed for a long time.

The revealed debuff popping on when stealth times out is really minor. There are some edge cases where you’d want to Heartseeker / Mug+C&D out of stealth wearing off from a disengage stealth, but losing those is just not a big deal. This really just breaks up C&D spam, dealing chip damage while remaining in stealth indefinitely. That mechanic was toxic and absolutely needed to go.

Mug is really toxic to the Thief kit. The fact that it exists forces a lot of downward pressure on all the other Thief burst skills. It’s incredibly dangerous because it stacks damage on top of whatever other burst you have with 0 activation time. If your burst has to be balanced with Mug taken into account, then a low damage Mug would allow more damage to be put, and kept, on the other skills. That would give the Thief both more staying power and flexibility, both of which are good things.

Once those two changes are in, they’ll be free to start patching up the holes in the Thief kit without the danger of one of those two major problems becoming amplified and crapping all over the game.

The proud carebear community should rejoice , they been crying for 8 months now about a class they don’t have a clue about. It seems that spamming the forums over and over gets you places and brakes classes. I wonder how much more they can nerf the thief untill a big chunk of players will ditch it and leave the game aswell.

Piogre.2164:

All in all, exactly what the theif needed. ANet hit the nail on the head- doing massive burst whilst only appearing for a fraction of a second is not balanced

It’s a good thing they nerfed CnD damage a while back so CnD spam didn’t do massive burst damage. Nor any kind of burst damage. It is a moderate hit every 3-4 seconds (4 if going more than 15 points into the stealth tree)

nor is having the highest burst DPS, highest mobility, and ability to stealth for 90% of the time all in one class.

Well it’s a good thing that Warriors and Engineers have highest burst damage (15-25k 100Blades, 18-25k Kill Shots, 22-24k 100 Nades) and that Elementalists have the highest mobility (Even noted by the Developers. Whom state they want to bring Thieves up to Elementalist level and even further as they’re supposed to be hit and run burst class with highest mobility)

Theif still has much more than, say, tf2 spy- where the high mobility was sequestered to a separate class (scout), and one had to wait through a reveal exiting stealth before they could attack at all.

TF2 spies relied mostly on disguises for the pre-attack mobility, having stealth relegated to traversing large portions of the map in relative safety since decloaking near someone will not only be visible but also make a very noticeable sound to alert everyone.

Thieves in GW2 use stealth in combat in order to have some defences and to set up for backstabs (Think Dead Ringer spies just without the extra loud decloak sound)

if you cant figure out how to kill someone without needing to chain stealths together it may be a learn to play issue. at the point where you are needing to hide 3x in a row you already lost and are trying to reset and get a second chance. sad to say you may get downed once or twice because you are forced to play instead of hide.

thieves have all the tools to win almost every 1v1 fight vs any profession even if they are able to see you for 3 seconds.

zaxon.6819:

if you cant figure out how to kill someone without needing to chain stealths together it may be a learn to play issue. at the point where you are needing to hide 3x in a row you already lost and are trying to reset and get a second chance. sad to say you may get downed once or twice because you are forced to play instead of hide.

thieves have all the tools to win almost every 1v1 fight vs any profession even if they are able to see you for 3 seconds.

Except builds that rely on stealth damage exist (intentionally so) and builds that use stealth as a defensive mechanic exist (intentionally so) yet others don’t get locked out of there main rotation or defensive skills because they used one, they can happily chain together their cooldowns until they’ve burnt them all.

Again, if they want to fix specific problems they should fix specific problems not blanket nerf.

they are not taking away stealth. stealth using thieves can still use stealth. they just cant chain it. if you are a thief that relys on stealth to do your damage this change will have 0 effect on you because when you do damage you will get the reveal buff anyway.