Guild Wars 2

Thief is a profession with night burst and the one that already suffered the most for missing a combo or a CnD. Other burst professions like warrior/ele/mesmer suffer alot less for missing they’re burst than the thief.

Just so you know the reveled changes is not supposed to be a penalty for thieves that miss 1 CnD (6 init. Half the init pool is by itself a high penalty) it to avoid trolling by only using CnD to stay in stealth (which is harmless).

I accept the change, but if they are going to put the revealed debuff on us then they should fix the channeled attacks through stealth.

Wonderer.1790:

Every thread its ranger’s complaining. Its quite funny actually, since trap rangers counter thieves hard. I understand that rangers need some different build options, but wanting more and more nerfs to thieves doesn’t change the fact that your class’s diversity is just bad right now (the main problem with most classes). Yes I understand they’re changing thieves, and yes it will good in the long run. I’m just tired of ranger players raging hardcore at thief players. It gives other good ranger players a bad name.

I am wondering about this too reading this last few pages. I think rangers maybe just get mad that a off hand dagger thief can negate their pets pretty easily.

I still see many whines about thieves in scenario’s in 1v3’s etc and I can never take a argument about a thieves damage seriously anymore since I started playing warrior. The damage I do on my warrior is crazy and I can pop it pretty much every 10 secs, compared to my thief and warrior can run full glass and get away with it wayyy more than a thief can. Its built into the traits.

+200 toughness when you are chilled, immobilized, cripple no cooldown(trait) +90 toughness just for having a shield (trait) 80 toughness just equipping dolyak signet, endure pain, stability activated if your hit with any cc effects and the larger health pool. Mobility is less than a thief and I would say tied with a ele(depending on your weapons and traits)

I don’t think a-net wants the thief to have much thoughness, they want it to evade/dodge/stealth to avoid dmg, not tank it.
Still it’s not even close to an ele that besides evading and dodging they also have immunitys AND are able to tank.

Volrath.1473:

I don’t think a-net wants the thief to have much thoughness, they want it to evade/dodge/stealth to avoid dmg, not tank it.
Still it’s not even close to an ele that besides evading and dodging they also have immunitys AND are able to tank.

And yet they are striping thiefs only defence tool – stealth.

Mobility is defense.

vespers.1759:

Ruggan.4102:

Distaste.4801:

This stealth nerf is absolutely nothing. Heaven forbid you actually have to think about anything other than damage stats on your thief. The ONLY people impacted this are the ones that abused stealth to begin with. Otherwise those of us that didn’t abuse stealth won’t really notice it. I run with blinding power, shadow refuge and even C&D some myself and I know it won’t be an issue. I already space my stealths out, I don’t want to be that perma-stealth abusing thief that has zero skill outside stealth. Of course I can see why those that do abuse it are upset, now they need to actually learn to play the class and won’t see huge numbers because they will have to pick up some defense.

Yea but you have to keep in mind… the stealth line is what controls a thieves condition removal, stun breaks, buffs, and heals. So basically, if a thief uses cnd comes out of it and gets hit by oooh i dont know… how about 3 ranger traps where the ranger has condition damage trait of oooh… 1.2k… so the trap ticks a very nice amount of dmg… well the thief now has to wait 3 seconds for their Hide In Shadows to be of use even though it isnt on cooldown… wow yea that makes lots of sense. Lets keep a Ranger from using Healing Spring for an additional 3 seconds past the cooldown of the ability just because one of their trait line abilities gave them regen… wow the fire that would be fueled then.

only a thief could complain that he has to be visible for an extra 3 seconds while dishing out 7k heartseekers and 9k backstabs!

if you die in that 3 seconds, you’re unpseakably awful.

Oooh 7k Heart-Seekers and 9K Backstabs…. In order to get off a 9k BS, for one… the thief has to get around a person to their backside and then actually land it while still stealthed. So they have to 1) go stealth 2) move behind an opponent who just saw them go stealth 3) Hit Back-Stab before stealth wears off and hope they hit. So this unto itself is a 3 key move at best…. So if a person who sees the thief go invis just stands there like an idiot… they deserve a 9k Back-Stab. Now, compare this to a Warrior who can deal out 12k in dmg with the push of a SINGLE button. Since Thieves have maybe 18k health…. some have 20k but the higher your health rating, the more you degrade the dmg output… 12k becomes over 2/3 of their health in ONE shot… So umm yea a 9k BS seems soooo overpowered doesnt it. Now lets look at Heart-Seeker. For Heart-Seeker to do any decent dmg, the target needs to be below 50% health at minimum, it has a defining animation making it easy to time a dodge to… and it uses init just like any other thief ability… lets not forget that the dmg to Heart-Seeker, Cloak and Dagger, Dancing Dagger, Dagger Storm, and BS have all been nerfed down by an average of 50% since Sept 9 2012… in those same number of patches, every other prof has received increases in the effectiveness of their abilities and weapon skills.

Ruggan.4102:

vespers.1759:

Ruggan.4102:

Distaste.4801:

This stealth nerf is absolutely nothing. Heaven forbid you actually have to think about anything other than damage stats on your thief. The ONLY people impacted this are the ones that abused stealth to begin with. Otherwise those of us that didn’t abuse stealth won’t really notice it. I run with blinding power, shadow refuge and even C&D some myself and I know it won’t be an issue. I already space my stealths out, I don’t want to be that perma-stealth abusing thief that has zero skill outside stealth. Of course I can see why those that do abuse it are upset, now they need to actually learn to play the class and won’t see huge numbers because they will have to pick up some defense.

Yea but you have to keep in mind… the stealth line is what controls a thieves condition removal, stun breaks, buffs, and heals. So basically, if a thief uses cnd comes out of it and gets hit by oooh i dont know… how about 3 ranger traps where the ranger has condition damage trait of oooh… 1.2k… so the trap ticks a very nice amount of dmg… well the thief now has to wait 3 seconds for their Hide In Shadows to be of use even though it isnt on cooldown… wow yea that makes lots of sense. Lets keep a Ranger from using Healing Spring for an additional 3 seconds past the cooldown of the ability just because one of their trait line abilities gave them regen… wow the fire that would be fueled then.

only a thief could complain that he has to be visible for an extra 3 seconds while dishing out 7k heartseekers and 9k backstabs!

if you die in that 3 seconds, you’re unpseakably awful.

Oooh 7k Heart-Seekers and 9K Backstabs…. In order to get off a 9k BS, for one… the thief has to get around a person to their backside and then actually land it while still stealthed. So they have to 1) go stealth 2) move behind an opponent who just saw them go stealth 3) Hit Back-Stab before stealth wears off and hope they hit. So this unto itself is a 3 key move at best…. So if a person who sees the thief go invis just stands there like an idiot… they deserve a 9k Back-Stab. Now, compare this to a Warrior who can deal out 12k in dmg with the push of a SINGLE button. Since Thieves have maybe 18k health…. some have 20k but the higher your health rating, the more you degrade the dmg output… 12k becomes over 2/3 of their health in ONE shot… So umm yea a 9k BS seems soooo overpowered doesnt it. Now lets look at Heart-Seeker. For Heart-Seeker to do any decent dmg, the target needs to be below 50% health at minimum, it has a defining animation making it easy to time a dodge to… and it uses init just like any other thief ability… lets not forget that the dmg to Heart-Seeker, Cloak and Dagger, Dancing Dagger, Dagger Storm, and BS have all been nerfed down by an average of 50% since Sept 9 2012… in those same number of patches, every other prof has received increases in the effectiveness of their abilities and weapon skills.

Thieves that do that kind of damage will not have 18-20k health.

They will have 10.5kish health.

ensoriki.5789:

Mobility is defense.

At what cost?

Other professions have they’re offensive and defensive cooldowns, thief has initiative, if the thief has to burn it all in mobility there will be nothing left to spend offensively.

it is strange that other classes can just swap weapons and be able to use other skills
but when i miss 1 c&d i loose 1/2 of my ini AND is of no use if i weapon switch unless i have 30 in acrobatics (which, usually, i do not have)

you guys are just clueless how the thief initiative works…
when stealth is nerfed, did anyone think that my Hide in Shadows will NOT work properly anymore when i get the revealed debuff ?? and all my traits “on stealth” will be useless. So, let me know about the op-ness here

i also want that other classes have penalties at their traits!!! because mine won’t work while revealed debuff is active !

vespers.1759:

ensoriki.5789:

vespers.1759:

ensoriki.5789:

vespers.1759:

huehuehue cry thieves cry! hopefully there’ll be a few more nerfs coming after this.

i’d love to see the tears if thieves were rendered as trashy as rangers, necros and engis but alas i don’t think it’ll happen. i’ll just content myself with the bitter tears of reduced OPness.

You know how I know you need to play more?

nope, but i’d love to see you try to defend thieves. 10 points if it isn’t a L2P comment or a comment about how one must play a thief to know thief.

Considers rangers, and engi’s trashy. Engi’s are plenty strong in WvW and Spvp.
Ranger’s are wreckers in spvp, ow-pve, and will be improving in fractals in 9 days.
No but they’re trashy lol wot. Mind boggling the things people say.

Defend what? This changes means jack diddly and was gladly welcomed.
It’s only funny how kitten you are from your clear personal dislike for a profession that you scream for nerfs without shame only highlighting your inability to play. Or in other words, so long as your personal ego is no longer injured you wouldn’t care what happened to the state of the profession.

i don’t play spvp and nobody is bad at open world pvp. they are absolute kitten at wvwvw and dungeons (which is what i play). if you think rangers being acceptable in spvp and open world pvp means they are good and well and don’t need balancing in dungeons and wvwvw you’re really dumb. it’s just a fact.

classes should be balanced for each game mode individually. i don’t care if the ranger is the god of spvp if it blows at wvwv and dungeons.

also minus 5 points for using the “L2P” argument. see my post above if you’re confused. it seems the only arguments thieves can muster to counter the mountains of evidence showing they are OP is L2P and go play thief to understand them.

Ok you want an argument that does not tell you to play a thief to see what we are talking about… fair enough. So lets put it into empirical evidence that you can understand:
1) You dont care if a class is OP in one area but Weak as hell in another… see, here is the issue… if a class is OP in WvW, and they are using the same equipment, trait lines, stats, trinkets, ect ect… then it really does stand to reason that they will be OP in PvE situations. The reason is simple… though there may be minor tweaks with certain abilities in WvW, those minor tweaks are meant to weaken the class in WvW thus making them stronger in PvE. The same is true in sPvP except the fact that in sPvP you can switch up your outfit and gear as you like without spending the gold. However, the tweaks in sPvP are meant to weaken a class from their abilities in PvE… thus if a Ranger is kitten as you put it in Dungeons, then they should be in PvP as well. Its called Logic… try it.
2) In 23 Patches, thieves have seen 10 reductions in their abilities. Of these 10, 7 are reductions in weapon skill damage levels. These have been, on average, a 50% decline in dmg across the board. Of the remaining 3 nerfs, the utility of skills has been changed. For example, Bask venom originally was immune to stun breakers because of its very very short stun duration. Now, with only a slight increase to its duration, it can be broken by any and all stun breakers. In those same 23 patches, all other classes COMBINED have only seen 4 survivability or dmg related reductions. One of those was Engineer grenades and that was because they now give sigil benefits to Engineer bundles… so there was a fair trade off. In the Last pacth, however, All other Classes COMBINED received 23 upgrades to surviviability and dmg skills…. that is in one patch.. ONE!!!
3) Perma-Stealth was mostly caused by Culling… Culling, as admitted by ANET, was an intentional part of their WvW model so as to decrease server side burden. EVERY, and I do mean, EVERY class got 2 seconds of stealth thanks to culling because there was a 2 second delay from when a person entered into the graphics zone to when the graphics would actually be rendered. Granted, this did increase stealth.. But it was not an inate ability of the thief… it was a side effect of a programming decision by the devs… therefore it was not part of the thief class as most people seem to think. To quote one of my earlier posts “There is no button on the thief hotbar that says CULLING, grant 2 extra seconds of perma-stealth”. The other problem with stealth, as pointed out by people was thieves using walls and other inanimate objects to stack stealth… guess what… they cant no more… and guess what… that was an exploit that was unintentional and NOT PART OF THE THIEF BUILD… once again, there was no button stating, hit inanimate object to obtain perma stealth. BTW, that change was welcomed by the thief community.

Daecollo.9578:

Ruggan.4102:

vespers.1759:

Ruggan.4102:

Distaste.4801:

This stealth nerf is absolutely nothing. Heaven forbid you actually have to think about anything other than damage stats on your thief. The ONLY people impacted this are the ones that abused stealth to begin with. Otherwise those of us that didn’t abuse stealth won’t really notice it. I run with blinding power, shadow refuge and even C&D some myself and I know it won’t be an issue. I already space my stealths out, I don’t want to be that perma-stealth abusing thief that has zero skill outside stealth. Of course I can see why those that do abuse it are upset, now they need to actually learn to play the class and won’t see huge numbers because they will have to pick up some defense.

Yea but you have to keep in mind… the stealth line is what controls a thieves condition removal, stun breaks, buffs, and heals. So basically, if a thief uses cnd comes out of it and gets hit by oooh i dont know… how about 3 ranger traps where the ranger has condition damage trait of oooh… 1.2k… so the trap ticks a very nice amount of dmg… well the thief now has to wait 3 seconds for their Hide In Shadows to be of use even though it isnt on cooldown… wow yea that makes lots of sense. Lets keep a Ranger from using Healing Spring for an additional 3 seconds past the cooldown of the ability just because one of their trait line abilities gave them regen… wow the fire that would be fueled then.

only a thief could complain that he has to be visible for an extra 3 seconds while dishing out 7k heartseekers and 9k backstabs!

if you die in that 3 seconds, you’re unpseakably awful.

Oooh 7k Heart-Seekers and 9K Backstabs…. In order to get off a 9k BS, for one… the thief has to get around a person to their backside and then actually land it while still stealthed. So they have to 1) go stealth 2) move behind an opponent who just saw them go stealth 3) Hit Back-Stab before stealth wears off and hope they hit. So this unto itself is a 3 key move at best…. So if a person who sees the thief go invis just stands there like an idiot… they deserve a 9k Back-Stab. Now, compare this to a Warrior who can deal out 12k in dmg with the push of a SINGLE button. Since Thieves have maybe 18k health…. some have 20k but the higher your health rating, the more you degrade the dmg output… 12k becomes over 2/3 of their health in ONE shot… So umm yea a 9k BS seems soooo overpowered doesnt it. Now lets look at Heart-Seeker. For Heart-Seeker to do any decent dmg, the target needs to be below 50% health at minimum, it has a defining animation making it easy to time a dodge to… and it uses init just like any other thief ability… lets not forget that the dmg to Heart-Seeker, Cloak and Dagger, Dancing Dagger, Dagger Storm, and BS have all been nerfed down by an average of 50% since Sept 9 2012… in those same number of patches, every other prof has received increases in the effectiveness of their abilities and weapon skills.

Thieves that do that kind of damage will not have 18-20k health.

They will have 10.5kish health.

Thats why i put in there that the higher the health rating, the more you sacrifice dmg output.

Ruggan.4102:

Daecollo.9578:

Ruggan.4102:

vespers.1759:

Ruggan.4102:

Distaste.4801:

This stealth nerf is absolutely nothing. Heaven forbid you actually have to think about anything other than damage stats on your thief. The ONLY people impacted this are the ones that abused stealth to begin with. Otherwise those of us that didn’t abuse stealth won’t really notice it. I run with blinding power, shadow refuge and even C&D some myself and I know it won’t be an issue. I already space my stealths out, I don’t want to be that perma-stealth abusing thief that has zero skill outside stealth. Of course I can see why those that do abuse it are upset, now they need to actually learn to play the class and won’t see huge numbers because they will have to pick up some defense.

Yea but you have to keep in mind… the stealth line is what controls a thieves condition removal, stun breaks, buffs, and heals. So basically, if a thief uses cnd comes out of it and gets hit by oooh i dont know… how about 3 ranger traps where the ranger has condition damage trait of oooh… 1.2k… so the trap ticks a very nice amount of dmg… well the thief now has to wait 3 seconds for their Hide In Shadows to be of use even though it isnt on cooldown… wow yea that makes lots of sense. Lets keep a Ranger from using Healing Spring for an additional 3 seconds past the cooldown of the ability just because one of their trait line abilities gave them regen… wow the fire that would be fueled then.

only a thief could complain that he has to be visible for an extra 3 seconds while dishing out 7k heartseekers and 9k backstabs!

if you die in that 3 seconds, you’re unpseakably awful.

Oooh 7k Heart-Seekers and 9K Backstabs…. In order to get off a 9k BS, for one… the thief has to get around a person to their backside and then actually land it while still stealthed. So they have to 1) go stealth 2) move behind an opponent who just saw them go stealth 3) Hit Back-Stab before stealth wears off and hope they hit. So this unto itself is a 3 key move at best…. So if a person who sees the thief go invis just stands there like an idiot… they deserve a 9k Back-Stab. Now, compare this to a Warrior who can deal out 12k in dmg with the push of a SINGLE button. Since Thieves have maybe 18k health…. some have 20k but the higher your health rating, the more you degrade the dmg output… 12k becomes over 2/3 of their health in ONE shot… So umm yea a 9k BS seems soooo overpowered doesnt it. Now lets look at Heart-Seeker. For Heart-Seeker to do any decent dmg, the target needs to be below 50% health at minimum, it has a defining animation making it easy to time a dodge to… and it uses init just like any other thief ability… lets not forget that the dmg to Heart-Seeker, Cloak and Dagger, Dancing Dagger, Dagger Storm, and BS have all been nerfed down by an average of 50% since Sept 9 2012… in those same number of patches, every other prof has received increases in the effectiveness of their abilities and weapon skills.

Thieves that do that kind of damage will not have 18-20k health.

They will have 10.5kish health.

Thats why i put in there that the higher the health rating, the more you sacrifice dmg output.

Well, they pretty much sacrifice over “half.” that damage to have that survivability.

Piogre.2164:

Ruggan.4102:

destroying aggro reduction on stealth (which also destroyed a thief’s ability to get out of trouble in PvE

Avoidance of trouble in PvE is not that difficult- even without stealth. Takes practice, in particular, practice without using a crutch stealth. Run laps of the cursed shore without stealth a few times, then describe how hard it is to avoid PvE trouble when you have stealth on you.

tl;dr: Those who have trouble avoiding trouble in PvE despite being able to use stealth, may need to learn 2 play.

Ruggan.4102:

Jeebus!!!!

>_<

Yea when i say avoid trouble… i mean when a thief is downed and the only way to actually get up from that was to stealth, let the mobs move away, and then hit our weak kitten heal ourselves… now the mobs dont move. Now, before you say well you still have the self heal… umm ever seen a ranger use his pet to heal him when he is down? I have… and let me tell you, every time my theif goes down and the pet starts to heal me… i get right back up. Cant say that on a thief

vespers.1759:

Dasorine.1964:

I wouldn’t argue with vesper, he rolls a greatsword glass cannon ranger! wooo!

Funny thing is the bits of the thief that he complains about are the ones that aren’t going to get effected, its all the other thieves that will feel it because Anet doesn’t know how to fix small issues without wide nerfs

i do? no, i don’t use greatsword. i use longbow and sword/axe. i said GS 2 is our highest hitting skill (except maybe path of scars after the buff) and that it hits about 3.5k in full zerk on most enemies, compared to the 9k a thief can do. it seems rather lackluster doesn’t it? i wish i could hit greatsword 2, 3 times in a row and hit 7k with it each time like a thief can with heartseeker but that would be OP wouldn’t it? even considering we still wouldn’t have stealth.

i’ll complain until anet listens and actually tries to balance the game. if it takes 6 months then it takes 6 months (i wouldn’t be surprised if it does).

If you use Long Bow then you know rapid fire can do up to and over 12k of dmg with the press of a single key. I know, I play a ranger specd for crit/cond and my longbow does that plus some because of the cond dmg

Thief condition removal is not all in the stealth line, there is a removal in the acrobatics line(when hit at 75% health it removes etc), you have a removal on a signet(just 1 condition but it’s AOE for other friendlies), shadowstep will remove 3 conditions, inf strike return will remove 1 condition, and you also have your heal that removes burning, bleeding, and poison regardless if it puts you in stealth or not. Also a condition removed every 3s is not bad by any means, I believe the guardian trait removes 1 every 10, same for the ranger signet so I don’t think having to wait 3s to stealth and remove some conditions is too bad at all. Again I will say that thieves that relied far too much on stealth will actually have to learn how to play the class.

Stealth is FAR too powerful, that is what people are not understanding. It not only gives you a huge advantage offensively but defensively as well. The fact that stealth can heal you, remove conditions, reduce your cooldowns(regen initiative), increase your crit, give you might, and blind all on top of being able to pick your battles, ambush your enemy, and get away if things go south is imbalanced. What makes it even worse is that it is spammable via C&D and the initiative system. ArenaNet took stealth, which is already a huge balancing act, and dialed it up to 11.

The initiative system is inherently bad. Most decent theorycrafters knew this way back in beta, we had long discussion threads about it. Initiative allows people to spam skills and since C&D applies stealth that means stealth is spammable. As I already said though, stealth is too powerful. That leads us down the road of how do you balance C&D? One way is just placing a cooldown on it but that negates the purpose of the initiative system. The other is to remove the stealth completely and replace it with some other defensive mechanic. The final way is to move the cooldown that should have been on it to stealth itself to prevent the spam abuse. The choice is pretty clear considering they don’t want to remove the initiative system or put in a new defensive mechanic.

Bottom line, the thief has spammable skills with stealth attached to one. No other class can spam their 2-5 skills like the thief so it’s quite obvious why the thief is the only class that will be limited defensively for a short period by one of the things they can spam. If you don’t want stealth to be changed like it is then it needs to be 1-2 things. Either stealth gets removed from weapon skills OR the initiative system gets removed and all our skills get cooldowns. Until either of those happens stealth needs the revealed debuff to keep it from being abused.

Only once we get stealth back under control can we start to iron out the other issues that thieves have. [/quote]

1) Pain response only removes if the thief is already at 75% health and THEN struck with a condition… it does not remove at 75% health
2) The signet cures a condition for each ally nearby… this is true
3) Shadow step does as you say
4) Inf Strike assumes 1 weapon combination
5) The heal that you speak of is a stealthing heal
If you look at the abilities of a thief, they center around stealth… there is a reason for that… just like a necro’s abilities center around death magic and an elementalist centers around elemental magic. So lets take away stealth from thieves… what you have then? A warrior with little to no defense, toughness, vitality, or any other advantage… yup that makes loads of sense

TheGuy.3568:

Authority.6145:

This is my honest opinion so if you get offended I don’t mind. The way I look at it is this;

If you rely on perma stealth chain, that is your problem. It is not a general thief’s problem because another thief over-abusing a “spam” (either hs or stealth) does not reflect the standard game play of a thief. Don’t confuse what most thieves do with what a thief can do .

What reflects the standard nature of the profession is adapting not relying on skill exploitation. Thief is a profession that will constantly need you to adapt. If you haven’t played other mmorpgs as a thief, you should know that through Guild Wars 2 by now.

I don’t mind the change because I have started to rely less on skill exploitation and more to adaptive reactions.

And before I forget, there is a difference between nerf and adaptation. If there is a spam that needs to be changed, that is called balancing it out not nerfing it.

Define skill exploitation please.

Becuase among the non “spam” builds that wont be touched are. P/D hit 5 spam 1 from ranged when they close the gap do it again. DD Death Blossom Spam 3 hit a stealth spam 3. S/P pistol whip spam. How about PP unload spam.

Shockingly the only builds that require more than 2 skills to use or where the other skills are actually useful are D/P and S/D.

What I find funny is that even a backstab combo with DD requires more skills to pull off then the majority of our builds. If we cut the BS most of our builds are spam. The worst don’t even involve stealth.

The standard nature my fellow thief is literally to exploit single moves.

Edit:

Different topic altogether but the real question is how is stacking stealth going to work?

Apologies for the late reply. My views have been changed since experimenting with other builds and increasing my rating in SPvP. So my points expanded will be countering the point in my initial post.

I used to see a lot of HS spam (doing it to the enemy with full health) but HS is just more than that and I understood that clearly when I switched builds. Plus HS spam doesn’t work at all in SPvP as you increase your rating. I also agree with your other statements.

• However, mobility “boost” for me is not welcomed. I don’t consider mobility to be an issue at all right now as thief since we can adjust our set up to maximize mobility.
• Touching our stealth assumingly means re-adjusting trickery (which I am extremely uncomfortable and stubborn to do at the moment since having 15 points in trickery is a must for me (3 extra initiatives are way too fundamental)
• Thus, in the long run it will affect X/D users or DPS/Stealth users which is the main nature of a thief. High DPS, Stealthiness and Squishiness.
• Thus cooling down your DPS traits is a no go.

Note: To answer to another player on why a 5m permenant stealth skill with one minute cooldown in Aion was and is superior to chain stealth is simple; ganking mass enemies without feeling the heat and getting away easily without feeling the heat.

As for me, I am already seeing signs in being forced to change my D/D (being forced is debatable but D/D in an all around perspective in SPvP is not viable since in higher and higher SPvP ratings enemies are not as squishy anymore)

Ideally, I would have liked; a boost on an attack speed trait or interlinking attack speed with an essential trait and introducing more cc control. An appropriate paralyzer on our dagger procing with 1-10 percent success and not the 15 percent stun duration. Or something that will have us invulnerable for 3 seconds.

In all honesty I think the way our traits are and the patterns we take (what sigils and utilities to use) need to be fixed somehow because every time I change slightly in there I am feeling I am sacrificing something which I am not sure it is even worth doing so and it gets tiresome this “sacrificing” adjustment instead of feeling that it is something to adapt.

I am probably and ignorantly theorycrafting but that is how I feel/see about it at the moment.

Stealth is one of the ways to make a thief as good as the other classes. While using stealth as a thief is not necessary to be good it certainly is useful and it would be a shame if they made it not as effective.. stealth in GW2 is already under powered compared to most MMOs

thenivekproject.4139:

All this blabber about thieves being able to stealth and all. Players that don’t improve or simply can’t learn to predict how to play against a thieve conveniently blame it all on the stealth?

Anet is simply removing another build thieves use and that IMHO is lame. It’s like removing mesmer’s shatter build or a guardian’s zerker build. And you don’t hear thieves complaining about an ele’s mist form or a necro’s deathshroud. Should those be removed too cos its kinda imba considering DS gives you a second life and mist form you basically negate most dmg. We’re not even talking about a ranger’s pet cos its mainly a 2v1 if you look at it that way. Hell…we should just have 1 class so there’s nothing for you all to complain about.

qfe

Here comes the funny part thief can burst only glass canon. Thief can never kill a decent guardian 1 vs 1 no matter how much damage you do. Engie will laugh if we try attack em they have protection if you crit 7 sec block. More condi remover then you ever will have.

After those nerfs i say r.i.p thief and play my lv 80 engie. 25 might stacks ftw.

Enjoyluck.2618:

Here comes the funny part thief can burst only glass canon. Thief can never kill a decent guardian 1 vs 1 no matter how much damage you do. Engie will laugh if we try attack em they have protection if you crit 7 sec block. More condi remover then you ever will have.

After those nerfs i say r.i.p thief and play my lv 80 engie. 25 might stacks ftw.

How many of these ‘decent’ guardians are there? Most guardians die 1v1 sitting on a point in there bunker spec, calling for back up.

let make me clear:
i do NOT agree that my whole “Shadow Arts” trait line to be useless for 4 seconds every time i come out of stealth not breaking it via attacking, reduce revealed to 1-2 seconds and MAYBE we have a deal

DanH.5879:

let make me clear:
i do NOT agree that my whole “Shadow Arts” trait line to be useless for 4 seconds every time i come out of stealth not breaking it via attacking, reduce revealed to 1-2 seconds and MAYBE we have a deal

Master of Deception
Slowed Pulse
Power shots
Leeching Venoms
Venomous Aura.

ensoriki.5789:

DanH.5879:

let make me clear:
i do NOT agree that my whole “Shadow Arts” trait line to be useless for 4 seconds every time i come out of stealth not breaking it via attacking, reduce revealed to 1-2 seconds and MAYBE we have a deal

There are 4 traits in the shadow arts line that do not care at all about stealth.
“Whole Shadow arts trait line” is false.

Master of Deception
Slowed Pulse
Power shots
Leeching Venoms
Venomous Aura.

Whole line? Please do not lie hombre.

Master of Deception – Really good, because deception is one of our best skills.

Slowed Pulse – “Ok.”, but too long of a cooldown to be worth it.

Power Shots – Worthless, Short Bow is mostly condition damage, and its not worth 20 points to get 5% damage. Why would you invest 20 points in the stealth tree for a non-stealth weapon? The Power tree offers far more % damage and power as well.

Leeching Venoms – Worthless. (lol venoms, Little to no healing…)

Venomous Aura – Worthless. (lol venoms, lol 300 range.)

Ruggan.4102:

1) Pain response only removes if the thief is already at 75% health and THEN struck with a condition… it does not remove at 75% health
2) The signet cures a condition for each ally nearby… this is true
3) Shadow step does as you say
4) Inf Strike assumes 1 weapon combination
5) The heal that you speak of is a stealthing heal
If you look at the abilities of a thief, they center around stealth… there is a reason for that… just like a necro’s abilities center around death magic and an elementalist centers around elemental magic. So lets take away stealth from thieves… what you have then? A warrior with little to no defense, toughness, vitality, or any other advantage… yup that makes loads of sense

Pain Response actually triggers when below 75% health and struck, which assuming we are talking about the ranger traps doing mad damage will get you below 75% damage and I find it hard to believe the ranger won’t be trying to hit you. The stealthing part of the heal doesn’t matter if you really need to get some conditions off you, you need to make that tactical decision just like guardians who have a 1per10 removal on their heal, do I heal and not be able to remove a condition? Or same thing for a warrior, do I heal and give up regen? The point was that if you want on demand condition removal without worrying about reveal, you have options. Heaven forbid that thieves don’t get everything in a single build.

Thief skills/traits aren’t all focused around stealth either, some deal with dodging/evading, some deal with stealing, and some deal with traps and others venoms. The thief isn’t based solely on stealth and all the thieves here complaining prove that stealth was far too powerful if it “breaks” the class for them. A good build tries to make use of multiple things, that is why the good thieves that use stealth in addition to dodging, evading, shadowstepping, traps, etc will not be majorly impacted while the “OMG STEALTH IS EVERYTHING!” thieves think the sky is falling.

Do you even have a clue what a thief can do out of stealth? A shadowstepping thief can make you want to pull your hair out. A dodging thief is stupidly slippery especially if they are condition based and using dodgetrops. I have 20k hp, 2600 armor, and a ton of dodging on my thief so your description of no defense, vitality, and toughness is PURELY your decision. Get some PVT gear, spec into acrobatics, learn to use shadowsteps, get a trait for vigor; the options are there but YOU aren’t taking them. Don’t get me wrong, the base 8k health and 200+ armor some classes get for no apparent reason is stupid, I’ve been posting about that since launch :P

Distaste.4801:

Ruggan.4102:

1) Pain response only removes if the thief is already at 75% health and THEN struck with a condition… it does not remove at 75% health
2) The signet cures a condition for each ally nearby… this is true
3) Shadow step does as you say
4) Inf Strike assumes 1 weapon combination
5) The heal that you speak of is a stealthing heal
If you look at the abilities of a thief, they center around stealth… there is a reason for that… just like a necro’s abilities center around death magic and an elementalist centers around elemental magic. So lets take away stealth from thieves… what you have then? A warrior with little to no defense, toughness, vitality, or any other advantage… yup that makes loads of sense

Pain Response actually triggers when below 75% health and struck, which assuming we are talking about the ranger traps doing mad damage will get you below 75% damage and I find it hard to believe the ranger won’t be trying to hit you. The stealthing part of the heal doesn’t matter if you really need to get some conditions off you, you need to make that tactical decision just like guardians who have a 1per10 removal on their heal, do I heal and not be able to remove a condition? Or same thing for a warrior, do I heal and give up regen? The point was that if you want on demand condition removal without worrying about reveal, you have options. Heaven forbid that thieves don’t get everything in a single build.

Thief skills/traits aren’t all focused around stealth either, some deal with dodging/evading, some deal with stealing, and some deal with traps and others venoms. The thief isn’t based solely on stealth and all the thieves here complaining prove that stealth was far too powerful if it “breaks” the class for them. A good build tries to make use of multiple things, that is why the good thieves that use stealth in addition to dodging, evading, shadowstepping, traps, etc will not be majorly impacted while the “OMG STEALTH IS EVERYTHING!” thieves think the sky is falling.

Do you even have a clue what a thief can do out of stealth? A shadowstepping thief can make you want to pull your hair out. A dodging thief is stupidly slippery especially if they are condition based and using dodgetrops. I have 20k hp, 2600 armor, and a ton of dodging on my thief so your description of no defense, vitality, and toughness is PURELY your decision. Get some PVT gear, spec into acrobatics, learn to use shadowsteps, get a trait for vigor; the options are there but YOU aren’t taking them. Don’t get me wrong, the base 8k health and 200+ armor some classes get for no apparent reason is stupid, I’ve been posting about that since launch :P

when the 25 max bleed stack limit is lifted, then you may dare talk
for pvp/wvw it may be good, but in pve when you also have a necro in the party, then your damage is severely reduced because extra bleeds are “dropped” without doing damage, not to mention if you have 15 sec and 3/4 bleed time… chopping the 3/4 part without any apparent reason.
until those 2 issues are fixed, bleeding thief is crap in pve unless he is the solo bleeder in the party. (fyi caltops alone tend to spam 10+stacks)

forums seem to degenerate so quickly into kitten fests. so many crys and qqs on every single forum. you go here and hear qq stealth, you go to the guardian forum and see qq boon hate you go to the mesmer forum and see qq shatter (may shave off some shatter damage). no wonder anet likes to just sit back and say nothing ignoring the community(refusing to say a date or time something will be done) because people are ready to spout tears at a moments notice. learn to play with the game you are given or leave. in less then 5 mins of class future speculation they inspired 100s of tears. i do not think it was the things that were said that inspired tears but the squishy spines of children on the internet.

Ruggan.4102:

vespers.1759:

Dasorine.1964:

I wouldn’t argue with vesper, he rolls a greatsword glass cannon ranger! wooo!

Funny thing is the bits of the thief that he complains about are the ones that aren’t going to get effected, its all the other thieves that will feel it because Anet doesn’t know how to fix small issues without wide nerfs

i do? no, i don’t use greatsword. i use longbow and sword/axe. i said GS 2 is our highest hitting skill (except maybe path of scars after the buff) and that it hits about 3.5k in full zerk on most enemies, compared to the 9k a thief can do. it seems rather lackluster doesn’t it? i wish i could hit greatsword 2, 3 times in a row and hit 7k with it each time like a thief can with heartseeker but that would be OP wouldn’t it? even considering we still wouldn’t have stealth.

i’ll complain until anet listens and actually tries to balance the game. if it takes 6 months then it takes 6 months (i wouldn’t be surprised if it does).

If you use Long Bow then you know rapid fire can do up to and over 12k of dmg with the press of a single key. I know, I play a ranger specd for crit/cond and my longbow does that plus some because of the cond dmg

of course, and it also does that dmg over 10 hits that may or may not crit. considering that a dodge will negate 67- of those shots, you don’t do any dmg at all.

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

DanH.5879:

let make me clear:
i do NOT agree that my whole “Shadow Arts” trait line to be useless for 4 seconds every time i come out of stealth not breaking it via attacking, reduce revealed to 1-2 seconds and MAYBE we have a deal

There are 4 traits in the shadow arts line that do not care at all about stealth.
“Whole Shadow arts trait line” is false.

Master of Deception
Slowed Pulse
Power shots
Leeching Venoms
Venomous Aura.

Whole line? Please do not lie hombre.

Master of Deception – Really good, because deception is one of our best skills.

Slowed Pulse – “Ok.”, but too long of a cooldown to be worth it.

Power Shots – Worthless, Short Bow is mostly condition damage, and its not worth 20 points to get 5% damage. Why would you invest 20 points in the stealth tree for a non-stealth weapon? The Power tree offers far more % damage and power as well.

Leeching Venoms – Worthless. (lol venoms, Little to no healing…)

Venomous Aura – Worthless. (lol venoms, lol 300 range.)

Doesn’t diminish my point in the slightest.
Venoms are significantly potent when administered correctly.
Leeching Venoms puts +325 damage on all of your attacks at base.
If you are hitting for 1000 for instance it’s basically a 33% increase on your damage, that gives you some health and may or not may be doing the same thing to your allies if you are sharing Venoms.
Venom share allows you to potentially put 8s of might on an entire party, Cause them to do 325 or more extra damage per strike (that will also heal them) as a result of Leeching Venoms, and gives them a variety of effects to use on an enemy or multiple enemies.

With S/ due to Inf strike, you also have Stun break regardless as a result of Shadow return. Meaning your essentials are covered.

But again, doesn’t change the point is that the shadow arts line is not invalidated just on a basis of traits when 5 traits are independent of stealth. Of course you’re welcome to meaninglessly argue against it.

so its 1200 a hit.. pretty sure thief shortbow is alot better then that. it seems the only benefit to being a ranger in that situation is having to push less buttons. or you can just put auto shoot on your 1 button and pooof… you are a ranger.

zaxon.6819:

so its 1200 a hit.. pretty sure thief shortbow is alot better then that. it seems the only benefit to being a ranger in that situation is having to push less buttons. or you can just put auto shoot on your 1 button and pooof… you are a ranger.

yes assuming ever arrow crits and the target is a glass canon. but a dodge (or even simply running normally at long range) will make most of the shots miss.

the only time you can land all 10 is vs a stunned target or someone who runs away from you in a straight line. at 1000+ range you can literally just side step the arrows.

i fail to see how being able to do 12k dmg over 10 hits compares top being able to do 7k in 1 hit and be able to do that move repeatedly as a thief can with heartseeker.

a simple stun 2, 2 combo for 14k dmg will kill most players easily.

vespers.1759:

zaxon.6819:

so its 1200 a hit.. pretty sure thief shortbow is alot better then that. it seems the only benefit to being a ranger in that situation is having to push less buttons. or you can just put auto shoot on your 1 button and pooof… you are a ranger.

yes assuming ever arrow crits and the target is a glass canon. but a dodge (or even simply running normally at long range) will make most of the shots miss.

the only time you can land all 10 is vs a stunned target or someone who runs away from you in a straight line. at 1000+ range you can literally just side step the arrows.

i fail to see how being able to do 12k dmg over 10 hits compares top being able to do 7k in 1 hit and be able to do that move repeatedly as a thief can with heartseeker.

a simple stun 2, 2 combo for 14k dmg will kill most players easily.

First of all, 2 heartseekers rarely kills people, and unless they are under 50% health, they wont do nearly the 7k damage you keep saying they will. In fact, above 50% you’d be better off autoattacking. What you consider a weakness in a continuous channel I consider a strength. Blind will only last for 1 of the shots, a single block will only block for 1 shot, and it will follow a stealthed thief for almost the entire duration of stealth causing them to have to burn dodges in addition to using stealth.

Loading all the damage into 1 attack in the case of heartseeker means it can be easily negated by the aforementioned methods. In addition, rapid fire is a ranged attack while heartseeker is a melee attack. Ranged attacks will never be as powerful as melee attacks because they do not carry the risk that melee range does.

So they plan on nerfing the core ability of thieves? Does that mean we’re getting a new name for the profession too?

I’ve only ever seen bad play- I mean, players that have yet to understand the game and professions that they face, complain. Honestly, I run a p/d thief and I rarely die (trying not to sound like I got my head up my kitten ) but it’s really not that hard to kill a thief. Learn your opponent and stop with the QQing. In sPvP, I see people stand on the caltrops and after they die, they complain. This is a serious case of l2p. Again, learn your opponents (other professions), seek new builds, and try again.

I can’t help but feel as if the bad players are going to be rewarded (call of duty anyone? deathstreaks?). Just sayin’.

Edit: Yes, I know, Call of Duty is a horrible game but it’s true.

Maugetarr.6823:

vespers.1759:

zaxon.6819:

so its 1200 a hit.. pretty sure thief shortbow is alot better then that. it seems the only benefit to being a ranger in that situation is having to push less buttons. or you can just put auto shoot on your 1 button and pooof… you are a ranger.

yes assuming ever arrow crits and the target is a glass canon. but a dodge (or even simply running normally at long range) will make most of the shots miss.

the only time you can land all 10 is vs a stunned target or someone who runs away from you in a straight line. at 1000+ range you can literally just side step the arrows.

i fail to see how being able to do 12k dmg over 10 hits compares top being able to do 7k in 1 hit and be able to do that move repeatedly as a thief can with heartseeker.

a simple stun 2, 2 combo for 14k dmg will kill most players easily.

First of all, 2 heartseekers rarely kills people, and unless they are under 50% health, they wont do nearly the 7k damage you keep saying they will. In fact, above 50% you’d be better off autoattacking. What you consider a weakness in a continuous channel I consider a strength. Blind will only last for 1 of the shots, a single block will only block for 1 shot, and it will follow a stealthed thief for almost the entire duration of stealth causing them to have to burn dodges in addition to using stealth.

Loading all the damage into 1 attack in the case of heartseeker means it can be easily negated by the aforementioned methods. In addition, rapid fire is a ranged attack while heartseeker is a melee attack. Ranged attacks will never be as powerful as melee attacks because they do not carry the risk that melee range does.

so you talk about blind and block when i mentioned neither one of those things and ignore the dodge which i did mention and which is the skill that causes the majority of rapid fire to fail.

good job. i can’t wait to see what you come up with next to defend thieves.

vespers.1759:

Maugetarr.6823:

vespers.1759:

zaxon.6819:

so its 1200 a hit.. pretty sure thief shortbow is alot better then that. it seems the only benefit to being a ranger in that situation is having to push less buttons. or you can just put auto shoot on your 1 button and pooof… you are a ranger.

yes assuming ever arrow crits and the target is a glass canon. but a dodge (or even simply running normally at long range) will make most of the shots miss.

the only time you can land all 10 is vs a stunned target or someone who runs away from you in a straight line. at 1000+ range you can literally just side step the arrows.

i fail to see how being able to do 12k dmg over 10 hits compares top being able to do 7k in 1 hit and be able to do that move repeatedly as a thief can with heartseeker.

a simple stun 2, 2 combo for 14k dmg will kill most players easily.

First of all, 2 heartseekers rarely kills people, and unless they are under 50% health, they wont do nearly the 7k damage you keep saying they will. In fact, above 50% you’d be better off autoattacking. What you consider a weakness in a continuous channel I consider a strength. Blind will only last for 1 of the shots, a single block will only block for 1 shot, and it will follow a stealthed thief for almost the entire duration of stealth causing them to have to burn dodges in addition to using stealth.

Loading all the damage into 1 attack in the case of heartseeker means it can be easily negated by the aforementioned methods. In addition, rapid fire is a ranged attack while heartseeker is a melee attack. Ranged attacks will never be as powerful as melee attacks because they do not carry the risk that melee range does.

so you talk about blind and block when i mentioned neither one of those things and ignore the dodge which i did mention and which is the skill that causes the majority of rapid fire to fail.

good job. i can’t wait to see what you come up with next to defend thieves.

Because dodge affects heartseeker more than rapidfire and if you are ignoring those other aspects of defending yourself against heartseeker, then its no wonder you die quickly to 2 of them.

vespers.1759:

i fail to see how being able to do 12k dmg over 10 hits compares top being able to do 7k in 1 hit and be able to do that move repeatedly as a thief can with heartseeker.

a simple stun 2, 2 combo for 14k dmg will kill most players easily.

Lmfao, are you actually serious? Go roll a Thief and test your “combo” out by chaining Devourers Venom and two Heartseekers on a target at full health and then come back and post your results.

I think you’ll find that your so-called combo is 100% A-Grade BULLCRAP.

vespers.1759:

i fail to see how being able to do 12k dmg over 10 hits compares top being able to do 7k in 1 hit and be able to do that move repeatedly as a thief can with heartseeker.

a simple stun 2, 2 combo for 14k dmg will kill most players easily.

You are speaking from a position of such horrible, disgusting ignorance that it really doesn’t warrant a response but I’ll entertain you for a brief second: go use heartseeker twice in a row on a full health target. Then report back to me with your screenshot of your 14k combat log.

I’ll be here. See you in 2050. Perhaps you might find something credible to say on this entire topic by then.

Stealth is already only 3 seconds and has been nerfed into oblivion. Why do they keep on nerfing it even more? This sucks.

Seems like a lot of L2 kitten ues.

what does l2 kitten ues mean? what is being censored? I see it everywhere

P at the end of one word, iss at the start of the next. I have to wonder if carefully disguised cursing would not be better than the monster they’ve created to fight it.
If their goal was to teach everyone new and obscure profanities, it certainly succeeds in that.

Grimwolf.7163:

P at the end of one word, iss at the start of the next. I have to wonder if carefully disguised cursing would not be better than the monster they’ve created to fight it.
If their goal was to teach everyone new and obscure profanities, it certainly succeeds in that.

agreed
15 characters

DanH.5879:

when the 25 max bleed stack limit is lifted, then you may dare talk
for pvp/wvw it may be good, but in pve when you also have a necro in the party, then your damage is severely reduced because extra bleeds are “dropped” without doing damage, not to mention if you have 15 sec and 3/4 bleed time… chopping the 3/4 part without any apparent reason.
until those 2 issues are fixed, bleeding thief is crap in pve unless he is the solo bleeder in the party. (fyi caltops alone tend to spam 10+stacks)

Not sure what this all has to do with my post, but I’ll assume you take my post as get a condition build. You don’t need a condition build to get health, armor, etc, I used to run a 18k hp 2600 armor all around build. Also in PvE you can build completely differently, you’re not going to be worrying about stealthing up on the boss and having revealed when it slaps a condition on you. In PvE you’re stealth condition removal will be up when you need it, except maybe a boss that slaps conditions on you every 3s but I honestly can’t think of one that doesn’t require people first missing a dodge or moving out of a red circle. Honestly, how is this nerf going to impact you in PvE? Are you spamming C&D on certain bosses? You’re seriously going to need to explain this to me. It’s clearly dungeon related since I already run a heavy condition build in world PvE and have no issues tagging mobs and getting credit.

Condition caps do suck and it needs changed, I’ve also posted against them once again since release, but that doesn’t change that thieves have plenty of condition removal and defense available to them outside of stealth. If you can’t get all of them while maintaining a super high damage berserker build, GOOD. You should have to make decisions between damage and survivability like all the other classes need to. Sure some of your stats might be wasted on condition damage to get vigor on steal, but now you can dodge a whole lot more. Also I’ll state now that I HATE the trait system, you should honestly be able to put your stats into what you want and then pick traits in addition to that. Stats shouldn’t be forced on you because you want a certain trait, but you have to work with what you’ve got.

You guys realize this will change pretty much nothing? Thieves will still be able to stealth more than 50% of the fight, perma stealth will still work, etc.

The only thing that doesnt work anymore is CnD → Wait untill Stealth runs out → CnD → repeat

But that wasnt what people have been crying about before, so quote me on that, people will still complain as they do now… untill they might realize that they are just plain bad at the game and it has nothing to do with the thief being overpowered but oh well…

kittenzlenit.7648:

You guys realize this will change pretty much nothing? Thieves will still be able to stealth more than 50% of the fight, perma stealth will still work, etc.

The only thing that doesnt work anymore is CnD -> Wait untill Stealth runs out -> CnD -> repeat

But that wasnt what people have been crying about before, so quote me on that, people will still complain as they do now… untill they might realize that they are just plain bad at the game and it has nothing to do with the thief being overpowered but oh well…

+1 for you , I’ve been saying this for 7 months now , but don’t you worry people will still complain about it.

The complains will start after the major tweak patch this month , saying that “oh no they didn’t do nothing to stealth , thief is still 100% invisible bla bla bla”. Personally I play in the mists from now on casually even though I have invested everything in my high-end BiS thief. Im tired of these new tweaks and nerfs on a monthly basis forcing us to play the class in a different way.

It gets stressful tbh and in the end the gameplay should be rewarding and fun , it’s becomming more of a chore to login on the thief nowdays. The casuals must be happy. Good luck

maybe i need a ranger to show me how to play but i use heartseeker to close a gap and if i am in range i choose to use the basic meele over heartseeker almost every time.

It’d be nice if this only happened while in combat. That way you can’t CnD until you’ve fully regenerated your health but you could still use Hide in Shadows then Shadow Refuge after falling out of stealth while out of combat.

In any case, good Thieves will adapt. I’ve always found mobility to be our greater saving grace than stealth anyway. Only bad players struggle with stealthing Thieves. Good ones will be able to predict where you’re going or just AOE the area you’re in. If you stealth and then shadowstep to an unpredictable location then you’re completely out of harm’s way. A lot of the time in tPvP when people think you’re perma-stealthing, it’s actually just a 3 second stealth, shadowstep and line of sight.

For those citing that Ranger Rapid Fire is good damage…

… yes, it does good damage, but over a 5 second channel.

• 5 seconds – plenty of time to line of sight, dodge roll, etc. … not to mention that damage has to be divided over those 5 seconds … warrior axe can crit for 2k per auto-attack and hit easily 5 times in 5 seconds

• channel – can be interrupted by the enemy or if the ranger needs to dodge roll, etc.

Comparing Backstab to Rapid Fire is silly since Backstab is an instant attack that does the same damage. The advantage of Rapid Fire is range. The advantage of Backstab is being instant.

The issue people have is with Backstab’s instant being combined with Mug’s instant and C&D (non-instant). That Instant + Non-instant + Instant makes running glassy in a Thief heavy environment quite dangerous.

… hence why I don’t do it, lol. Cavalier ftw.

This, as a stealth using thief myself, is something I have suggested here before and I welcome this change.

Sebrent.3625:

For those citing that Ranger Rapid Fire is good damage…

… yes, it does good damage, but over a 5 second channel.

• 5 seconds – plenty of time to line of sight, dodge roll, etc. … not to mention that damage has to be divided over those 5 seconds … warrior axe can crit for 2k per auto-attack and hit easily 5 times in 5 seconds

• channel – can be interrupted by the enemy or if the ranger needs to dodge roll, etc.

Comparing Backstab to Rapid Fire is silly since Backstab is an instant attack that does the same damage. The advantage of Rapid Fire is range. The advantage of Backstab is being instant.

The issue people have is with Backstab’s instant being combined with Mug’s instant and C&D (non-instant). That Instant + Non-instant + Instant makes running glassy in a Thief heavy environment quite dangerous.

… hence why I don’t do it, lol. Cavalier ftw.

Single ability to single ability comparisons only ever go in circles. Worried about 5 second execution time, bang haste. if I bang haste then I can’t do ‘x’… ah but you can do ‘y’ instead using ability 27…. etc.

Spec/class combos need to be contrasted for a better discussion… for instance the trap ranger is simply amazing in PvP… I have an 80 ranger. It is amazing because of the sum total of area denial, pet management, conditions, etc. It’s a whole package. There are many rangers that consider thieves simply food. What they mean is they can destroy burst thieves… as a whole package it is a rock to the GC thief scissors.

The only concern I have is destroying class uniqueness… it’s what killed Dark Age of Camelot. There we had a company (Mythic) completely pander to the vocal few who whined like hell rather than work it out and over time everything got watered down into DAoC light with stabilizers on and the game died a horrible death as a result.

GW2 is good. Chipping away at classes and spreading abilities round will start the rot.