Guild Wars 2

I’m not talking about a large one like 900, but something around 400-300 would make it a bit easier to land as in my opinion the biggest problem with the skill is the unreliability when compared to bp->hs for example.

Do you have it set to a hotkey? Unless the target decides to evades you shouldn’t be missing them. We already have a lot of shadowstep skills you could use after using #5 I don’t think it CnD needs it.

Sounds like you want everything to be easy mode

Not easy, just somewhat viable against competent people without having to combo it with more expensive skills.

So what if I’d want to CnD from its max range cos getting next to my target would kill me? The port would just dumb the skill down.

There is enough brain dead play style in the game, let’s try to don’t bring it to */D as well. Combo it with steal, you can even precast it.

I want to say yes but at the same time…. “No Valid Path to Target” crap exists, unfortunately.

I literally got wrecked in wvw today for fighting in the harpy area because what seemed like relatively flat land was actually a big zone where no porting of any kind worked.

Seriously Anet. No valid path to target broke more than it fixed.

No just drop the vulnerability for blindness.

Sagat.3285:

No just drop the vulnerability for blindness.

^^this probably would be more reasonable buff to the set

Cynz.9437:

Sagat.3285:

No just drop the vulnerability for blindness.

^^this probably would be more reasonable buff to the set

I second this. Would be a HUGE improvement to both SA and Acro sets and help solve part of the issue of thieves getting destroyed in team fights when running anything other than a D/P set.

I’d rather not bring d/d up to par with d/p and promote some healthy decision making, d/p is way to easy to use. Like its been suggested, swap vulnerability with blind on CnD would be an incredible improvement all the while they can remove Cloaked in shadows and think of something new that can actually compete with SR and VA.

The only skill that ever needed blind-on-stealth was cnd anyways.

Sagat.3285:

No just drop the vulnerability for blindness.

Ok, but then I want the 1,5 quota back on it
Maybe the traits should be reworked first – the SA line is a mess in my opinion.

Anyway, someone else said that CnD was easy to land – it isn’t because of bugs, lags, culling or whatever- it misses more often than it hits, I need steal to land it most of the time. So in the end we don’t need a shadowstep on it; we either need a bug fix or a range buff for CnD – or maybe even a shadow step – would be great if some of the devs looked into it.

Last i tried, and that means not long ago, you still can CnD + steal for teleport and get hit in.

I think it would help d/d come into line with d/p. I might even add a blind to it.

Currently no reason to pick d/d over d/p…

swinsk.6410:

I think it would help d/d come into line with d/p. I might even add a blind to it.

Currently no reason to pick d/d over d/p…

Blind on CnD ? Yes please.
Shadowstep on CnD ? No ty. First thing that comes in mind – broken surfaces that makes shadowstep work weird or dont work at all (all kind of hills, rocks, stairs, wolf poops in the way…).

I would rather see a rollover (10sec) on Dancing Dagger after it successfully hits that allows you to shadowstep to your opponent and cripple (3sec) them. The shadow step should be instant cast so it could be combined with CnD, but it should cost more initiative (2ini) and require a combo rather than being made baseline. Attaching it to a successful DD leaves counterplay in it. I also like blind on CnD.

Edit: Remove the bounce and you can up the damage (slightly). The shadowstep shouldn’t deal any damage so you can use it while in stealth.

Karolis.4261:

swinsk.6410:

I think it would help d/d come into line with d/p. I might even add a blind to it.

Currently no reason to pick d/d over d/p…

Blind on CnD ? Yes please.
Shadowstep on CnD ? No ty. First thing that comes in mind – broken surfaces that makes shadowstep work weird or dont work at all (all kind of hills, rocks, stairs, wolf poops in the way…).

You realize shadow shot has this and it is just fine. Also allows you to port to players on objects. I think adding shadow step+blind to cnd would bring d/d in line with d/p.
My shadow shot works like 99% of the time…

swinsk.6410:

Karolis.4261:

swinsk.6410:

I think it would help d/d come into line with d/p. I might even add a blind to it.

Currently no reason to pick d/d over d/p…

Blind on CnD ? Yes please.
Shadowstep on CnD ? No ty. First thing that comes in mind – broken surfaces that makes shadowstep work weird or dont work at all (all kind of hills, rocks, stairs, wolf poops in the way…).

You realize shadow shot has this and it is just fine. Also allows you to port to players on objects. I think adding shadow step+blind to cnd would bring d/d in line with d/p.
My shadow shot works like 99% of the time…

Both would create a wave of nerfs I rather they add swiftness per foe or shadowstep to #4 and improve #3.

I realize D/P is our only saving grace right now, competitively, but I have grown tired of the set personally. I mainly PvP, but I prefer D/D as I think it does stealth right.

I’d like to see D/D change as follows:

Deadly Blossom – Increase the evade frame to 1/2 second.

Dancing Dagger – Increase damage to make this a more meaningful AoE skill, increase the duration of cripple, or perhaps add another condition to it. (Not all, but one or the other.)

Cloak and Dagger – I think a blind in addition to vulnerability would be excellent to bring this more in line with D/P.

I’d like to see D/P changed:

This one is more tricky to deal with as anything is a direct nerf to our only real competitive set. I still think the access to stealth in this build should be brought more in line with the X/D sets.

With X/D a miss on CnD, which is very easy to happen as it can be blinded, or dodged or latency can cause a miss on a target as they run by you, has severe downsides as it takes half your initiative with no stealth.

D/P no matter what it is a 100% chance to stealth on the leap finisher unless your opponent stuns or interrupts, which more often then not doesn’t happen. This especially true when it is precast prior to engaging. All other weapon combos require you to engage in melee, or to burn a utility to access stealth.

I realize this would nerf our best weapon (although evening it up with other weapons), but this could open us up for buffs in our other areas of defense in SA and Acrobat lines. Perhaps even a revert to SE trait would be more reasonable at this point.

The only thing I could think of really is:

Black Powder – Smoke Field to a Dark Field
- Which could synergize with a Heal on Crit, P/P, Signet of Malice combo. Giving P/P some more sustained defenses, since there is no real access to stealth in this set.

Shadow Shot – Increase initiative cost, but triggers stealth on hit. This would basically couple a shadowstep with cnd to keep the set really competitive, but would eliminate the no risk stealth from BP>HS as it can be dodged or blocked. It would fight the complaints of trolling thieves as you would see them engage, and make their escape or fight reset require a larger cooldown (ie: Shadow Refuge). All this while adding more reasonable counter play to our D/P stealth.

Utilities:
Venoms – Across the board need to have additional benefits to using the skills. Stun breaks or boons, outside of the life steal traits. This could really feed into thief’s support capabilities, with venom sharing or at least allow venoms to be a more viable utility choice for non venom sharing builds. OR substantial cooldown reduction.

Traps – These are in a good place, (perhaps buff tripwire?) but the bug to not give vulnerability and might when Ambush or Shadow Trap trigger when taking Deadly Trapper needs to be fixed.

Thoughts?

Edited for Formatting

It would be nice if the added blind to #5 and changed #3 to have shadow step with multi stab like a pistol whip but without the self root and less damage.

Current #3 is junk…

Why would you want to nerf D/P, no reason for it. Needs buffs not nerfs.

Sagat.3285:

No just drop the vulnerability for blindness.

This.

assassin.7895:

Why would you want to nerf D/P, no reason for it. Needs buffs not nerfs.

I’m assuming you are referring to my post.

As I said, I realize that changing the black powder combo field could be seen as a nerf, but with the added stealth at the end of shadow shot, I think it is a fair compromise that could bring D/P in-line with our other weapon sets. This would allow Anet to buff the thief in other areas, without making D/P just flat out better.

What I was trying to accomplish was to open up choice in our weapons with this change, and giving arena net space to buff our stealth lines and defenses without having to worry about their repercussions it would have due to the ease of stealth access through D/P.

Reece.7341:

Black Powder – Smoke Field to a Dark Field

this is maybe a bit too harsh but HSing through smoke field is way too cheesy indeed
(if you move stealth to d/p 3 they wont have any way to party stealth without refuge, would feel like justice as S/D tho)

Thanks for the reply, Kicker.

If party stealth is the goal, it can be achieved through utilities. Which I think is fair, as most party stealth is done prior to engaging or moving through enemies in WvW/PvE.

Smoke Screen, Shadow Refuge and to a lower level blinding powder can achieve this.

My opinion is this:

If we remove on demand stealth without having a target and limit it to utilities, we could really open up more room for buffs to stealth lines and utilities to improve thief build diversity (Strictly from a PvP perspective).

- From a thief who loves stealth builds.

Kicker.8203:

Reece.7341:

Black Powder – Smoke Field to a Dark Field

this is maybe a bit too harsh but HSing through smoke field is way too cheesy indeed
(if you move stealth to d/p 3 they wont have any way to party stealth without refuge, would feel like justice as S/D tho)

They really should find a way to remove repetitive stealth (in the case of d/p) so they can’t hang that over our heads as being the best stealth class. The only thing that CnD has over BPS→HS is that meld with shadows effects it, but the reliability of constantly adding 3 seconds vs potentially missing 4 seconds is clear as day.

I just wish there was better methods of skillful stealth and repositioning as well as entering/exiting stealth bonuses rather than having to sit in it. It’s boring to play, and boring to play against.

If CnD had a shadowstep than we’d be a stealthed Shiro. Currently shiro’s #5 ability does just that. CnD’s animation, shadowstep, and pull.

Look how pathetic you guys are. Trying to destroy a none broken wepon set plus a GrandMaster trait instead fixing those broken ones.

Reece.7341:

If we remove on demand stealth without having a target and limit it to utilities, we could really open up more room for buffs to stealth lines and utilities to improve thief build diversity (Strictly from a PvP perspective).

I think this way of thinking depends way too much on Anet’s ability to balance things. Sadly, I don’t have the confidence needed in them at this time.

Sagat.3285:

No just drop the vulnerability for blindness.

+1

I also like the idea of shadowstep on dancing dagger.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Sagat.3285:

No just drop the vulnerability for blindness.

+1

I also like the idea of shadowstep on dancing dagger.

I agree with dropping the vulnerability for blindness on Dagger5.
The only nerfs I would bring to D/P (and those two weapons), is to have DP3 blind on the dagger hit, so the blind doesn’t go through blocks. Also, Black Powder Shot shouldn’t include the shot and now it won’t be as much of a free blind on a blind spam build.

DD3 should be reworked altogether… aside from looking cool, sorting out failures in pvp play, and supplying bleeding with non-condi weapons, is there any reason to keep Death Blossom there? The reworked DD3 should be a quick melee attack with lifesteal, situational 1/4s daze, or short superspeed buff. Also, it’d be cool if it inherited Male Human Ele Dagger Fire1’s animation, since that uses both daggers.

D/D needs to become finally on par with the other Weapon Builds.

But lets compare first, what the other Builds have, where D/D lacks

S/D

• Strongest Cleave AA as it hits also 3 Targets and not only 2
• Cripple in AA
• On Demand Shadow Step
• Blind/Daze in Stealth Attack based on Positioning
• Integrated Evade Skill that steals Boons and is more effective, than Death Blossom.
  DB has only a f. ridiculous 1/4 Evade Time, while this Skill has a half second.
• Mid Range Multi Hit/Target Cripple
• Melee On Demand Stealth

S/P

• All the five first points above
• Heavy Damage Stun Attack that helps alot to interrupt foes in the right moments with integrated Evade that lasts longer than Death Blossom!!!
  this Skill lets you for 1 1/4s evade!!, so freaking 5x better than Death Blossom!!
• On Demand Blindness
• Medium Range Stun

D/P

• Weaker Cleave than Sword
• Poison on AA
• Mid Range Health Based Gap Closer Burst
• Unblockable 900 Range Blind with the Dual Skill with integrated Shadow Step
• Burst Damage on Stealth Attack when hit from behind
• On Demand Blindness
• Medium Range Stun

P/D

• Bleeding on AA, no Cleave naturally
• Multi Hit Medium Burst with Multi Stacks of Bleed on Stealth Attack
• Vulnerability/Immobilize
• Torment with Backwards Shadow Step to keep Distance
• Mid Range Multi Hit/Target Cripple
• Melee On Demand Stealth
  ——

Now, what offers D/D compared to that:

• Same 3 first Points as D/P
• Weakest Integrated Dodge Skill with Multi Target Multi Bleeds, that doens’t even last over its full Animation, so you can be practicalyl stunned in midst of being in the air of the animation!! Awesome!! GJ
• Last 2 Points that S/D and P/D also have.
  ——

So compared to all of this:

• D/D lacks Boon Control
• D/D lacks having a Hard CC with either Daze or Stun or knockdown whatever
• D/D lacks having a Damage Mitigator with Blind
• D/D has the weakest Cleave
• D/D Conditions that you can apply are the weakest, Pistols is much better at keeping up constant high bleeds, than D/D and the Posion from D/D is lauchable weak with its single Stack
• D/D lacks on the On Demand Shadow Step for mobility, Heart Seeker is not good enough as a Gap Closer with its ridiculous 450 range

So, to make D/D more on par with the other Weapon Combinations, I suggest to improve D/D this way via these changes:

• Increase the Cleave Amount from D/D either also to 3, or increase the Attack Speed of D/D by 25% so that you can complete faster its AA rotation.
• Exchange out the Poison from AA with the 2 Stacks of Torment from Shadow Strike, so that Shadow Strike deals Poison and the Dagger AA deals 2 Stacks of Torment.
• Change Heartseeker into a 600 Range Leap Attack, that lets the Thief also Evade Attacks
• Change Cloak and Dagger Vulnerability to Small AoE Blindness, which doesn’t pulse like Black Powder and reduce its Initiative Cost by 1 therefore that you need to take the Risk to go into Melee Combat for your Stealth
• Increase the Duration of the Evade from Death Blossom from 1/4s Second to the full duration of the Skill Animation. Increase the Number of Targets from 3 to 5 and let it Damage 5x instead of 3x so that it deals up to 5 Bleeding Stacks when DB is used out of Stealth.
  Death Blossom is called then when used out of Stealth instead “Night Blossom”
• Make Merges of some Traits, to create free space for a new Trait, that allows it Offhand Dagger Players to turn Dancing Daggers into a Skill with a different function that based on the Health Threshold of your Enemy does different things:

Trait: Master of Dagger Arts
turns Dancing Daggers into Merciless Daggers.

Merciless Daggers
You throw a Dagger for 3 Initiative at a foe, that will bounce between foes and if the bounced Dagger will hit the same foe twice, then that foe will get stunned. Hit that Dagger a foe twice that was over 50% Health, then that foe will also lose before the Dagger hits a Boon, making this attack unblockable.
If Anet just increases the Cleave only from 2 to 3, then this Trait should also increase the AA Attack Speed by 25%, when wielding 2 Daggers.

With these changes would be D/D more on par with the other Sets with one point receiving only, if you Trait for it to make D/D significantly better to give it a Hard CC, that it needs to be same as effective as, making it possible with Merciless Dagger when used at the right moment to practically hard cc with a Stun 2 Targets, if it bounces between both targets its full 3x successfully, while removing also that way of them 1 boon, for the cost, that the skill doesn’t cripple then anymore.

2k hours in D/D thief, here.

I have no problems CnD’ing. I think D/P is just so wildly strong compared to D/D that it not only feels weak to newer thieves/less-experienced D/D players, but its absurd toolkit of utilities prevents the thief as a whole from facing better viability buffs across its weapons. Buffing the thief as a profession simply cannot be done the way D/P is in regards to competitive play, and in regards to how absurdly [overpowered] P/D condi is in small-scale skirmishing. Both of these sets are pretty much 1/2-button winners and no real risk from the amount of soft CC, stickiness, and damage it offers.

Would like to see no changes aside maybe an initiative reduction to Dancing Dagger and Death Blossom – I play D/D + S/D a lot for WvW, and throwing loads of Dancing Daggers helps immensely for ranged/downed executions while defending towers and keeps. DB could use some love in regards to the gap closing, and it’d definitely help D/D a lot in regards to its engage/mobility potential (or just a directional attack like Whirlwind Attack from War’s GS as a mobility skill).