Guild Wars 2

i was thinking it would be cool if “initiator arrow” was removed from short bow and replaced with another skill.

But i thought it be even better if they moved infiltrator arrow to F3 skill on say 5 second CD (make it classed as a trick skill). allow thief to keep all it movement with every weapon set over having to carry a set just for 1 skill.

what i would replace skill 5 with be probably tether shot skill. that bounce off players within 70 range each player tether last 3 seconds. breaking the tether cause 1 second stun stealing 1 boons to the thief and share with allies.

Sounds good to me. Either that, or just make the F3 key enter into Shortbow mode so you can still retain all five skills. I’m all for having a second main weapon set :-)

i would love that idea too

Kageseigi.2150:

Sounds good to me. Either that, or just make the F3 key enter into Shortbow mode so you can still retain all five skills. I’m all for having a second main weapon set :-)

That is actually a really interesting idea. Ele and engi only get one weapon because of attunements and kits. Since all of our sets share the initiative pool, there’s no reason why we can’t have more than two sets.

I was thinking about our teleport skills lately. The concept was to reduce spamming and making them more tactical.
The basic idea was several skills like Infiltrators arrow, shadow shot, infiltrators strike creating shadow marks, that can be teleported to using an f3 skill.
The idea is pretty unpolished tho.

Nah I’d say give Theives an F3 stealth skill. It’s ridiculous how the masters of stealth don’t even have this as a profession skill. It’s like having an Ele only being able to use fire attunement and having to slot air, water and earth for their utility skills. Same with engi, imagine if all those F# skills were utility skills? Say goodbye to super speed and elixirs. It’s pathetic how I have to waste a utility slot for a 3s stealth on a 40s CD while DH gets an F1 pull/cc skill and an F2 healing skill like wtf? Heck, even Mesmers!!!! Imagine if shatters weren’t on F# keys and had to be slotted into a utility slot!!!! This game is a joke.

Edit: lol guess I went on a little rant

Hmm. You do have a point…sort of.
But thieves are not per se the ‘masters of stealth’
If you wish to play stealth you should have access, and you do. Using initiative for it seems much healthier than any cooldown.
Stealth itself should be more viable for us. Stealth access is ok.

Asrat.2645:

Hmm. You do have a point…sort of.
But thieves are not per se the ‘masters of stealth’
If you wish to play stealth you should have access, and you do. Using initiative for it seems much healthier than any cooldown.
Stealth itself should be more viable for us. Stealth access is ok.

Yes and no, here is the profession description.

“Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air”

The Devs say we are supposedly experts at stealth, have a trait line dedicated to stealth, yet have the worst skills for applying stealth, and one of the main ones virtually roots is in a tiny area and applies self reveal if you step out of it. All the while 2 other classes have easier access to stealth and better stealth skills, due to majority of ways Thieves access stealth they will most likely end up causing reveal on themselves due to having to use combo fields to gain stealth.

Stealth is not a Thief only mechanic true, but with so many resources that are dedicated to it we have the hardest time accessing it reliably if in fights which the shadow arts line would want to make use of reliable stealth access, outside of combat yes thieves have access to stealth if you blow all resources to keep it up which doesn’t help anyone in the long run. I would say having a 3 or 4 sec stealth on an f3 with a 25 sec CD would not hurt the game in any sense and help the thief feel less clunky.

Shovel Face.4512:

Nah I’d say give Theives an F3 stealth skill. It’s ridiculous how the masters of stealth don’t even have this as a profession skill. It’s like having an Ele only being able to use fire attunement and having to slot air, water and earth for their utility skills. Same with engi, imagine if all those F# skills were utility skills? Say goodbye to super speed and elixirs. It’s pathetic how I have to waste a utility slot for a 3s stealth on a 40s CD while DH gets an F1 pull/cc skill and an F2 healing skill like wtf? Heck, even Mesmers!!!! Imagine if shatters weren’t on F# keys and had to be slotted into a utility slot!!!! This game is a joke.

Edit: lol guess I went on a little rant

I would be all right with that if using it consumes initiative. It would make staff a lot better, since stealth access to use the knockdown followed by burst is one of it’s biggest weakness.

But if it didn’t cost initiative, I could see it having a number of implications that won’t be good.

thief is meant to be the king of movement and with all the changes anet has done to classes with rune set swiftness change. i think by giving them infiltrator arrow on F3 it would break away from just it becoming less out tempo an return to what thief should be a hit an run class. using tactical location to relocate gain the edge in fights.

like think of how amazing p/p could become if they had a 5 second teleport the re-positioning would be insane.

if we wanted to add stealth to it we could throw it in trait line of Cloaked in shadow just add F3 know apply stealth.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Asrat.2645:

Hmm. You do have a point…sort of.
But thieves are not per se the ‘masters of stealth’
If you wish to play stealth you should have access, and you do. Using initiative for it seems much healthier than any cooldown.
Stealth itself should be more viable for us. Stealth access is ok.

Yes and no, here is the profession description.

“Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air”

The Devs say we are supposedly experts at stealth, have a trait line dedicated to stealth, yet have the worst skills for applying stealth, and one of the main ones virtually roots is in a tiny area and applies self reveal if you step out of it. All the while 2 other classes have easier access to stealth and better stealth skills, due to majority of ways Thieves access stealth they will most likely end up causing reveal on themselves due to having to use combo fields to gain stealth.

Stealth is not a Thief only mechanic true, but with so many resources that are dedicated to it we have the hardest time accessing it reliably if in fights which the shadow arts line would want to make use of reliable stealth access, outside of combat yes thieves have access to stealth if you blow all resources to keep it up which doesn’t help anyone in the long run. I would say having a 3 or 4 sec stealth on an f3 with a 25 sec CD would not hurt the game in any sense and help the thief feel less clunky.

Exactly. Thieves spend way too much resources just to enter stealth for 3s. It’s ridiculous b/c those resources are better spent elsewhere and should be. An F3 skill that gives us 3s of stealth on a 40s CD WOULD NOT HURT ANYONE AT ALL. You have all these classes with their cool F# skills and here’s the thief class….bleh.

This, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Feathers, would be an excellent F3 skill. Please Anet, give this to us in the April balance patch!!!!!

But I have to agree with the rabbit that an initiative cost would be healthier.
+Maybe a cooldown to make weaponset stealth gain not completely obsolete and reduce spamming.
It just makes more sense for the profession.
And I still like the shadowstep version better, but thats only because I dont play stealth-builds.
And whilst talking about things that are never going to happen: weaponswap initiative cost, not cooldwon, tks.

Then shortbow becomes useless and the thief gets access to a ton of extra mobility.

In essence, it’s just straight power creep for the profession as a whole.

If stealth is given on F3, then it invalidates the use of smoke fields/CnD/many utility skills with again what is unnecessary power creep.

Just because the class description mentions something doesn’t mean that the entire class should be based around it. By sheer desriptions alone, eles should have the highest damage per hit in the game, warriors should be the most mobile (not thieves), guardians should be pure tank and support only, and rangers should feature archer-only gameplay with extensive adaptation (not featured in the class).

Not to mention the thief description doesn’t even mention initiative or not having cooldowns, which is one of the most significant aspects of the profession.

DeceiverX.8361:

Then shortbow becomes useless and the thief gets access to a ton of extra mobility.

In essence, it’s just straight power creep for the profession as a whole.

If stealth is given on F3, then it invalidates the use of smoke fields/CnD/many utility skills with again what is unnecessary power creep.

Just because the class description mentions something doesn’t mean that the entire class should be based around it. By sheer desriptions alone, eles should have the highest damage per hit in the game, warriors should be the most mobile (not thieves), guardians should be pure tank and support only, and rangers should feature archer-only gameplay with extensive adaptation (not featured in the class).

Not to mention the thief description doesn’t even mention initiative or not having cooldowns, which is one of the most significant aspects of the profession.

The problem is that thieves have to waste a lot more resources than any other class to get into stealth, which will majority of the time not even work. If opponent positions in Thieves Combo field, CnD needs to hit for it to stealth you, which is negated by all of the blocks, invulns and evades in game.

Yet Mesmer has the Prestige which gives 3 sec stealth, burning and blind on 30 sekittenraited CD doesn’t require the Mesmer to hit the target to enter stealth, compared to Blinding Powder which gives 3 sec stealth, blind and is on 40 sec. Cd and takes up a utility slot.

It’s not power creep it would be normalizing gameplay, again every other class with stealth access doesn’t have a full trait line alley depended on stealth they have 1 -2 traits max that use it and even then those traits are better than the equivalent Thief traits. I.e. Prismatic Understanding 50% longer duration and random Boon vs Meld with Shadows 1 sec duration increase.

and if you are worried about invalidating CnD then suggest remove the on hit part for CnD to provide stealth.

Just some food for thought. And recap

When a class is supposed to utilize stealth more than others yet is penalized more so than others to even try to enter stealth i.e.

Have to waste more resources, to include Initiative(effectively putting other skills on Cd),

Relying solely on combo fields which will more often than not cause self inflicted reveal if in combat even if you aren’t trying to attack opponent due enemy Ai, destroy able environmental ,

self inflicted reveal if you even step outside of SR, not even counting when knocked out of the small Aoe stealth field, or from the reveal spam brought on by other classes

having to rely on a skill actually hitting target to enter stealth,

there in lies the problem.

Sorry, I gotta ask: what was ‘sekittenraited’ supposed to be?

Asrat.2645:

Sorry, I gotta ask: what was ‘sekittenraited’ supposed to be?

I looked at it in editor it said 30 second un-traited, idk why they censored it.

you said 30 sec, didnt you? So as far as the filter is concerned you said the c-word. ^^ I love it. Recently got a WHO—-REsorted kittened. Its a little oversensitive.

I like the idea especially now, when thief totally lost its identity due to no stealth and no mobility compered to rev and engie

Asrat.2645:

you said 30 sec, didnt you? So as far as the filter is concerned you said the c-word. ^^ I love it. Recently got a kittenorted kittened. Its a little oversensitive.

Yeah I said 30 Sec. Bahaha this censor really does make some laughs.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The problem is that thieves have to waste a lot more resources than any other class to get into stealth, which will majority of the time not even work.

That’s kind of the point though and why I think an initiative cost would be needed on a stealth ability that was part of the class mechanics.

To enter stealth without spending initative, you have to invest in Shadow Arts to get stealth on steal or choose specific utility slots.

Entering stealth on demand with D/P consumes initiative and means you have less of an initative pool to use in a burst unless you are willing to wait to replenish the lost initiative.

So with that in mind, with the new ability and Shadow Arts for steal, you can use steal to enter stealth, have a full bar of initiative and all utility slots to devote to executing a burst combo, then use the new ability to retreat back into stealth defensively.

It would make D/P even stronger, because it still has on demand stealth access a thief can use to stealth abuse while waiting for steal and the new ability to cycle. Of course, they can use this same currently with cycling steal and blinding powder, but the key difference is you have to take blinding powder over a signet or physical skill that would increase the damage of your burst.

A stealth class mechanic that costs initative would just make the other weapon sets stronger, because it would be giving access to the biggest tactical advantage that D/P has.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

this censor really does make some laughs.

MadRabbit.3179:

That’s kind of the point

Sorry just having too much fun.

MadRabbit.3179:

…{W}ith that in mind ..It …is …the biggest tactical advantage…

thunderfall.8095:

MadRabbit.3179:

…{W}ith that in mind ..It …is …the biggest tactical advantage…

Can I help you with something?

MadRabbit.3179:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The problem is that thieves have to waste a lot more resources than any other class to get into stealth, which will majority of the time not even work.

That’s kind of the point though and why I think an initiative cost would be needed on a stealth ability that was part of the class mechanics.

To enter stealth without spending initative, you have to invest in Shadow Arts to get stealth on steal or choose specific utility slots.

Entering stealth on demand with D/P consumes initiative and means you have less of an initative pool to use in a burst unless you are willing to wait to replenish the lost initiative.

So with that in mind, with the new ability and Shadow Arts for steal, you can use steal to enter stealth, have a full bar of initiative and all utility slots to devote to executing a burst combo, then use the new ability to retreat back into stealth defensively.

It would make D/P even stronger, because it still has on demand stealth access a thief can use to stealth abuse while waiting for steal and the new ability to cycle. Of course, they can use this same currently with cycling steal and blinding powder, but the key difference is you have to take blinding powder over a signet or physical skill that would increase the damage of your burst.

A stealth class mechanic that costs initative would just make the other weapon sets stronger, because it would be giving access to the biggest tactical advantage that D/P has.

But it’s ok for another class to have access to on demand stealth that provides damage as well as a shorter Cd than the closest equivalent Thief skill Blinding powder? Which is inherently better than Thieves access from weapon skills, CnD needs to land in order to grant stealth, BP+HS both have after casts and animations that lock Thief in frames for it to grant stealth, not completely on demand, need to ensure there are no Ai or Destroyable environment nearby so you do not cause Self Reveal.

Now having an ini cost would be fine. but to enter stealth as a Thief with a high possibility of it failing, you need to waste 9 ini, which is either 75% or 60% of your ini pool. Which also makes the majority of your skills unusable, especially if trying to disengage you will not be able to swap and IA away in stealth.

Hidden Thief does help but even then you are taking a lack luster trait line due to the unreliable stealth access for thieves. Just for that one trait.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

DeceiverX.8361:

Then shortbow becomes useless and the thief gets access to a ton of extra mobility.

In essence, it’s just straight power creep for the profession as a whole.

If stealth is given on F3, then it invalidates the use of smoke fields/CnD/many utility skills with again what is unnecessary power creep.

Just because the class description mentions something doesn’t mean that the entire class should be based around it. By sheer desriptions alone, eles should have the highest damage per hit in the game, warriors should be the most mobile (not thieves), guardians should be pure tank and support only, and rangers should feature archer-only gameplay with extensive adaptation (not featured in the class).

Not to mention the thief description doesn’t even mention initiative or not having cooldowns, which is one of the most significant aspects of the profession.

The problem is that thieves have to waste a lot more resources than any other class to get into stealth, which will majority of the time not even work. If opponent positions in Thieves Combo field, CnD needs to hit for it to stealth you, which is negated by all of the blocks, invulns and evades in game.

Yet Mesmer has the Prestige which gives 3 sec stealth, burning and blind on 30 sekittenraited CD doesn’t require the Mesmer to hit the target to enter stealth, compared to Blinding Powder which gives 3 sec stealth, blind and is on 40 sec. Cd and takes up a utility slot.

It’s not power creep it would be normalizing gameplay, again every other class with stealth access doesn’t have a full trait line alley depended on stealth they have 1 -2 traits max that use it and even then those traits are better than the equivalent Thief traits. I.e. Prismatic Understanding 50% longer duration and random Boon vs Meld with Shadows 1 sec duration increase.

and if you are worried about invalidating CnD then suggest remove the on hit part for CnD to provide stealth.

Just some food for thought. And recap

When a class is supposed to utilize stealth more than others yet is penalized more so than others to even try to enter stealth i.e.

Have to waste more resources, to include Initiative(effectively putting other skills on Cd),

Relying solely on combo fields which will more often than not cause self inflicted reveal if in combat even if you aren’t trying to attack opponent due enemy Ai, destroy able environmental ,

self inflicted reveal if you even step outside of SR, not even counting when knocked out of the small Aoe stealth field, or from the reveal spam brought on by other classes

having to rely on a skill actually hitting target to enter stealth,

there in lies the problem.

That doesn’t mean the mesmer has better stealthing abilities. More reliable if not next to anyone maybe, but better? That’s not really reasonable to say, considering all of them have casting times and very long cooldowns with the same base duration. To gain a lot of stealth uptime on a mesmer, you need to run two trait lines, one specific weapon set, a full bar of utilities oriented explicitly for stealth, and an elite explicitly for stealth. Frankly, if a stealth-based mesmer gets hit by reveal, they’re worse off than any typical thief. I’m not justifying the amount of reveal other professions are capable of putting out, or the amount of blocks and invulns (I think both of these are way overdone at the moment), but your claims are strictly inaccurate and are a poor basis for comparison.

The mesmer has strictly less access to stealth. The thief can maintain it permanently, meaning that overall the thief’s access is objectively better, even if “harder” to gain access to.

The thief is a “master” of stealth because of the rate at which it can regain it, because with DD, now every single weapon set the thief has possesses the ability to acquire stealth, and can do so for an extended period of time. You’re comparing weapon skills with cast times to utilities which don’t have any. Your basis for comparison is relatively poor and is examining these abilities in a vacuum. Again, warriors are supposed to be the fastest class based on their description. Why don’t they have the 1200 range teleport/rush? After all, we’re not anywhere supposed to be able to hard-engage in our description. And frankly, even our description mentions that our core of defense is meant to be evasive-oriented, based on the following tidbit:

“Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.”

There’s just so much one can take out of context this way.

I’d rather see revealing effects nerfed and blocks/invulns cut (especially passive ones) than see the thief buffed so dramatically with weapon skills being effectively invalidated. The game’s power creep is way too crazy right now. It’s driving people away from the game at an alarming rate, and despite the thief’s weaknesses, it has a solid foundation that’s weak just because everything else is so overpowered at the moment.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

MadRabbit.3179:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The problem is that thieves have to waste a lot more resources than any other class to get into stealth, which will majority of the time not even work.

That’s kind of the point though and why I think an initiative cost would be needed on a stealth ability that was part of the class mechanics.

To enter stealth without spending initative, you have to invest in Shadow Arts to get stealth on steal or choose specific utility slots.

Entering stealth on demand with D/P consumes initiative and means you have less of an initative pool to use in a burst unless you are willing to wait to replenish the lost initiative.

So with that in mind, with the new ability and Shadow Arts for steal, you can use steal to enter stealth, have a full bar of initiative and all utility slots to devote to executing a burst combo, then use the new ability to retreat back into stealth defensively.

It would make D/P even stronger, because it still has on demand stealth access a thief can use to stealth abuse while waiting for steal and the new ability to cycle. Of course, they can use this same currently with cycling steal and blinding powder, but the key difference is you have to take blinding powder over a signet or physical skill that would increase the damage of your burst.

A stealth class mechanic that costs initative would just make the other weapon sets stronger, because it would be giving access to the biggest tactical advantage that D/P has.

But it’s ok for another class to have access to on demand stealth that provides damage as well as a shorter Cd than the closest equivalent Thief skill Blinding powder?

That class being one that is limited to cooldowns, doesn’t pool a resource it can use to do heavy burst and doesn’t have an alternative set of abilities that is enabled by entering stealth?

Then, yeah.

Not saying that mesmers don’t have balance issues or there isn’t some degree of offensive cheese associated with their stealth like building up clones without breaking stealth, but it’s primarily a defensive tool for them, not an offensive one like it is for us.

You can’t just say “Well, they have X, so therefore, it’s totally fine for us to have X, because we’re thieves and we should have it based on this idea of what thieves should or should not have”

Giving us an additional ability, seperate from weapon skills, utilities and traits that gave on demand stealth with no initative cost has a lot of impact on us.

DeceiverX.8361:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

DeceiverX.8361:

Then shortbow becomes useless and the thief gets access to a ton of extra mobility.

In essence, it’s just straight power creep for the profession as a whole.

If stealth is given on F3, then it invalidates the use of smoke fields/CnD/many utility skills with again what is unnecessary power creep.

Just because the class description mentions something doesn’t mean that the entire class should be based around it. By sheer desriptions alone, eles should have the highest damage per hit in the game, warriors should be the most mobile (not thieves), guardians should be pure tank and support only, and rangers should feature archer-only gameplay with extensive adaptation (not featured in the class).

Not to mention the thief description doesn’t even mention initiative or not having cooldowns, which is one of the most significant aspects of the profession.

The problem is that thieves have to waste a lot more resources than any other class to get into stealth, which will majority of the time not even work. If opponent positions in Thieves Combo field, CnD needs to hit for it to stealth you, which is negated by all of the blocks, invulns and evades in game.

Yet Mesmer has the Prestige which gives 3 sec stealth, burning and blind on 30 sekittenraited CD doesn’t require the Mesmer to hit the target to enter stealth, compared to Blinding Powder which gives 3 sec stealth, blind and is on 40 sec. Cd and takes up a utility slot.

It’s not power creep it would be normalizing gameplay, again every other class with stealth access doesn’t have a full trait line alley depended on stealth they have 1 -2 traits max that use it and even then those traits are better than the equivalent Thief traits. I.e. Prismatic Understanding 50% longer duration and random Boon vs Meld with Shadows 1 sec duration increase.

and if you are worried about invalidating CnD then suggest remove the on hit part for CnD to provide stealth.

Just some food for thought. And recap

When a class is supposed to utilize stealth more than others yet is penalized more so than others to even try to enter stealth i.e.

Have to waste more resources, to include Initiative(effectively putting other skills on Cd),

Relying solely on combo fields which will more often than not cause self inflicted reveal if in combat even if you aren’t trying to attack opponent due enemy Ai, destroy able environmental ,

self inflicted reveal if you even step outside of SR, not even counting when knocked out of the small Aoe stealth field, or from the reveal spam brought on by other classes

having to rely on a skill actually hitting target to enter stealth,

there in lies the problem.

That doesn’t mean the mesmer has better stealthing abilities. More reliable maybe, but better? That’s not arguable, considering all of them have casting times and very long cooldowns with the same base duration. To gain a lot of stealth uptime on a mesmer, you need to run two trait lines, one specific weapon set, a full bar of utilities oriented explicitly for stealth, and an elite explicitly for stealth. Frankly, if a stealth-based mesmer gets hit by reveal, they’re worse off than any typical thief. I’m not justifying the amount of reveal other professions are capable of putting out, or the amount of blocks and invulns (I think both of these are way overdone at the moment), but your claims are strictly inaccurate and are a poor basis for comparison.

The mesmer has strictly less access to stealth. The thief can maintain it permanently, meaning that overall the thief’s access is objectively better, even if “harder” to gain access to.

The thief is a “master” of stealth because of the rate at which it can regain it, because with DD, now every single weapon set the thief has possesses the ability to acquire stealth, and can do so for an extended period of time. You’re comparing weapon skills with cast times to utilities which don’t have any. Your basis for comparison is relatively poor and is examining these abilities in a Vacuum.

The main Weapon skill I mentioned that had any cast times were the Thief skills Bp 1/2 sec., HS 3/4 sec., now vault is near instant but not quiet and does Aoe damage, both of which will fail horribly if you cause damage to anything nearby while attempting, and since you know The Prestige is instant cast and has a much lower CD than the only equivalent skill thieves have without damage attached to it, I don’t know how that statement was going to help you.

Maintaining stealth outside of combat indefinitely is great and all but that doesn’t help or do anything in sPvP since you have to dump every resource and Cd you have to do so.

Being the masters of stealth means they should reliably be able to enter stealth which they cannot really do in combat when it actually matters, since all but 2 ways have a huge chance to cause self inflicted reveal in the act of trying to enter stealth.

MadRabbit.3179:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

MadRabbit.3179:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The problem is that thieves have to waste a lot more resources than any other class to get into stealth, which will majority of the time not even work.

That’s kind of the point though and why I think an initiative cost would be needed on a stealth ability that was part of the class mechanics.

To enter stealth without spending initative, you have to invest in Shadow Arts to get stealth on steal or choose specific utility slots.

Entering stealth on demand with D/P consumes initiative and means you have less of an initative pool to use in a burst unless you are willing to wait to replenish the lost initiative.

So with that in mind, with the new ability and Shadow Arts for steal, you can use steal to enter stealth, have a full bar of initiative and all utility slots to devote to executing a burst combo, then use the new ability to retreat back into stealth defensively.

It would make D/P even stronger, because it still has on demand stealth access a thief can use to stealth abuse while waiting for steal and the new ability to cycle. Of course, they can use this same currently with cycling steal and blinding powder, but the key difference is you have to take blinding powder over a signet or physical skill that would increase the damage of your burst.

A stealth class mechanic that costs initative would just make the other weapon sets stronger, because it would be giving access to the biggest tactical advantage that D/P has.

But it’s ok for another class to have access to on demand stealth that provides damage as well as a shorter Cd than the closest equivalent Thief skill Blinding powder?

That class being one that is limited to cooldowns, doesn’t pool a resource it can use to do heavy burst and doesn’t have an alternative set of abilities that is enabled by entering stealth?

Then, yeah.

Not saying that mesmers don’t have balance issues or there isn’t some degree of offensive cheese associated with their stealth like building up clones without breaking stealth, but it’s primarily a defensive tool for them, not an offensive one like it is for us.

You can’t just say “Well, they have X, so therefore, it’s totally fine for us to have X, because we’re thieves and we should have it based on this idea of what thieves should or should not have”

Giving us an additional ability, seperate from weapon skills, utilities and traits that gave on demand stealth with no initative cost has a lot of impact on us.

One thing I find wrong with this currently is that Thieves get 1 skill per weapon set that is available in stealth, not a whole new set of skills, and currently the best skill in stealth BA is weaker than the Thieves AA so there is almost no point in using it with the effort needed to set it up, through positioning. Granted if they fixed the issues with thief stealth and provided a reliable access to it say like your suggestion an f3 that requires ini use then yes it would be fine but as of currently it’s counterproductive to enter stealth as a thief in combat to use it offensively since most time you will inflict self reveal while attempting to enter stealth.

Backstab is considered ineffective/wasteful for the sole purpose that too much power creep has been put into the game to the point where thief’s AA chains weren’t good enough to justify it as a DPS class in raids, despite even before HoT having the best single-target DPS in the game (aside from eles/exploiting the targeting bug on Ice bow/FGS/MS), and despite the thief’s high damage, it couldn’t kill the new professions even if using all of its initiative running full glass. So they fixed two problems with one “solution.”

This is why I fundamentally disagree with giving the thief strictly better options than it has now and claim that the place to start is by nerfing other professions, because power creep has invalidated most of the thief’s balance state to begin with, and we’ve always been behind this curve because there are blatant balance concerns with buffing various aspects of the thief.

DeceiverX.8361:

Backstab is considered ineffective/wasteful for the sole purpose that too much power creep has been put into the game to the point where thief’s AA chains weren’t good enough to justify it as a DPS class in raids, despite even before HoT having the best single-target DPS in the game (aside from eles/exploiting the targeting bug on Ice bow/FGS/MS), and despite the thief’s high damage, it couldn’t kill the new professions even if using all of its initiative running full glass. So they fixed two problems with one “solution.”

This is why I fundamentally disagree with giving the thief strictly better options than it has now and claim that the place to start is by nerfing other professions, because power creep has invalidated most of the thief’s balance state to begin with, and we’ve always been behind this curve because there are blatant balance concerns with buffing various aspects of the thief.

I do agree with you there, I just doubt Anet Devs will remove the power creep from other classes, so that’s why I proposed the ideas I have, if they did dial back all the elite specs then yes with a few tweaks Thieves would be at a good point mainly the only thing I would ask for is having a more reliable stealth access either by as you suggested toning back some of the reveal spam and , block/invulns being thrown around.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

One thing I find wrong with this currently is that Thieves get 1 skill per weapon set that is available in stealth, not a whole new set of skills, and currently the best skill in stealth BA is weaker than the Thieves AA so there is almost no point in using it with the effort needed to set it up, through positioning. Granted if they fixed the issues with thief stealth and provided a reliable access to it say like your suggestion an f3 that requires ini use then yes it would be fine but as of currently it’s counterproductive to enter stealth as a thief in combat to use it offensively since most time you will inflict self reveal while attempting to enter stealth.

I think it’s a seperate issue and one related to power creep. It’s DPS loss also has to do with the time associating entering stealth to use it in the first place in PvE and it’s a sustained damage issue.

But as far as setting up a burst combo which is a mixture of high spike damage and cc abilities, Backstab still has its usages.

Like with a no initiative stealth ability that doesnt take up an utility slot, I could reasonably do…

Assassin’s Signet + Impairing Daggers + Start Auto Attack Chain + Steal into their backside, enabling Stealth (Backstab lands, daggers lands, target is immobilized) + Fists of Flurry + Palm Strike for stun + Full bar of initiative into heartseeker spam with 25% health bonus + New Stealth ability to retreat into stealth to recover initiative and begin using Heartseeker + Black Powder combo to stay in stealth while my abilities cycle.

Is that enough spike to kill everyone in the game? Probably not. Is that straight up power creep? Yes. Why? Because you can invest all your resources into going full burst, because the new stealth ability always leaves you with an out. You don’t neccessarily have to trade an utility slot into Blinding Powder or Shadow Refuge to give you an out or save your initative for a Heartseeker + Black Powder so you have an exit stragety.

That’s my only point. It’s just more power creep and we shouldn’t the broken state of the game as justification for adding more.