Guild Wars 2

Every class should be able to 1v1 on a side point and win.

Each class has its defined deference that set it a part from the others. To demand a class to give up a class defining trait is going to ensure they can never achieve 1v1 viability.

If you take away a thief’s mobility than they’ll fail in 1v1s due to not having invulns stab protection etc. You can literally do this with every class….for instance remove an eles boon up keep and they are fail.

There is zero argument to leave thieves unable to 1v1 on a side point

The current meta SA DP thief has great mobility, utility and survivability. If such build can also contest side point 1v1, it becomes pretty OP. It’s almost like another DD ele.

Remember in an 1v1 against thief, if you lose, you will surely die. The thief has enough gap closer to ensure that happen. However, if the thief loses, he can always leave and find a chance somewhere else.

Thief has always been the No.1 WvW roaming class. This says a lot in its potential of 1v1ing. It’s just that in conquest mode. Thief excels in other areas that it’s worth giving up some personal fighting power for.

While the Thief can disengage at almost any point of their choosing, it’s not much consolation when they’re 1v1able by pretty much everyone. Run or die against most competent players.

I know very few people read or acknowledge my posts (especially considering, the trait incident post aside..was cranky, I am very rarely wrong on anything) but I figure, might as well solve this awkward dispute right ^.^

Currently, Thief is a free kill. No party has denied this.
Thief has massive mobility from literally a SINGLE skill. Everything else is just class emphasizing. No one has denied this.
Many thieves (myself included) have stated that we would give up our shortbow 5 skill (that massive op mobility =P) for some actual balance, buffs, and versatility.

To the important and odd bits. The argument seems to be getting confused. No thief wants to play d/p anymore. Sick, tired, bored, verge of uninstalling. Reason? D/p<->SB DA/SA/TR Vamp/Pack runes. 95% of thieves are playing this build, 99% of thieves are playing D/P weapon set. .6% and .4% is S/D and P/D respectively. Now isn’t that interesting to you non-thief bashers? You are massively traumatized and terrified of thieves being able to contest you. What’s comical, especially to people like me, is that YOU ARE NOT READING WHAT WE THIEVES ARE SAYING. Has to stop.

Thief is the LEAST versatile class in the game, both by weapons and by traits. I hear people arguing Engi and Ele because they look at weapons and seem to forget conjured weapons and kits. Thief? We have a Dagger, Sword, Pistol, and Shortbow. We also used to passively gain damage for dodging or using stealth, now that is gone. We didn’t even get a trade-off like other professions, our SA and Acro were just nerfed. Hard. “But your vigor is better”. Feline Grace for this. Then Feline Grace resold to us for the xpac. If you think we aren’t salty on that, read the other posts. I want a new minor to be quite honest and feline grace returned to old. Alas, no one really plays Thief and no one really nurtures Thief. If you played Daredevil, you will have seen tons of re-used animations and tons of bugs. Far more than I observed on Tempest or Berserker, and those were the new ones as well.

Thief players, like myself, or asking not for buffs. For versatility. For being allowed to play the game differently. I feel like, at times, I am playing Pokemon. With a Magikarp. I can press Splash, Tackle, or Flail. Unfortunately, that’s all I have. I don’t have anything but 6 Magikarp, like some terrible dream. Meanwhile all other professions seem to have an entire team of Electric-Types. If you have no idea what I’m talking about (and I admit, this is kind of vague), look it up. Ask if you have to. Thief needs versatility. Unfortunately, this means changing weapon sets. Pistol pistol needs an almost entire rework, miscellaneous skills need to be made into other things (Death Blossom, seriously. Even condi players don’t use this skill for anything other than it’s multihit), and our trait lines need to just be fixed. Full discussions have been made else where, I am not sure why the argument is here in PvP. No half competent player even remotely argues what Thief’s role is anymore- to decap and provide a +1. But don’t you remember on release, we had some other role. Some other responsibility. Oh! That’s right. We were tasked with fighting other players on our own. Oh goodness me, I almost forgot. Now if we play on equal skill as other players, we get thrashed silly and mindlessly. I see so many mistakes, but the thing is I can no longer punish them. I rolled Thief because it had the capability I seek most in PvP games- to punish other players for bad plays. I was able to do that back in 2013, suddenly 2015 rolls around and if I engage anyone they can just turn and faceroll me dead? Yet, no one finds that odd. Oh well, have fun being in whatever frame of mind this is, hope my post helps you see the light of truth more. Perhaps it won’t, but I did just summarize roughly 140 posts.

Exciton.8942:

The current meta SA DP thief has great mobility, utility and survivability. If such build can also contest side point 1v1, it becomes pretty OP. It’s almost like another DD ele.

Remember in an 1v1 against thief, if you lose, you will surely die. The thief has enough gap closer to ensure that happen. However, if the thief loses, he can always leave and find a chance somewhere else.

Thief has always been the No.1 WvW roaming class. This says a lot in its potential of 1v1ing. It’s just that in conquest mode. Thief excels in other areas that it’s worth giving up some personal fighting power for.

Leave WvW out of this. Your last sentence is strange to me there is no way of trading those areas for personal fighting power because you become useless and more than usual thanks to “he who knows his name”. The same applies when trying to move away from d/p the few condition,venom and dual pistols thieves became instinct in just a few days post patch they are now in unbalanced land WvW which we will not mention anymore.

Imho, Thief is still fine in conquest and OP depends who play it. although i am all for nerfing the class profession more to the ground and sell the buff in the next expac release. #kaching$

and to those people saying D/p is the only viable build thief has. clearly you don’t play thief and didnt tried how high skill capped and rewarding P/d in terms of skillful play.

Edit: For more devastating Conditiondamage

A big reason thieves are bad at 1v1 in Conquest is because the number one question everyone asks themselves when they make a build for SPVP is “Can this survive a thief 1v1?”

Every build that can’t defeat a thief 1v1 is pushed out of the meta solely because of that. A thief’s mobility is more than enough to chase down and kill anyone who can’t fight them off every single time they meet. If you can’t beat the thief in a straight fight they’ll farm you the entire match.

Speaking as someone who’s tried many, many times to get a zerker staff ele to work this is my experience. I can deal with just about anything with triple cantrips even as a glass cannon with the exception of being instantly downed by someone I didn’t see there.

So it stands to reason if thieves want more 1v1 power they’d need to lose their god-like mobility to compensate. Similar to how rangers are great at 1v1 but bring nothing else to a team that’s worth while. Hopefully Daredevil will work as a lower mobility 1v1 fighter once the expansion hits and thieves will get the playstyle they want.

Ehecatl.9172:

A big reason thieves are bad at 1v1 in Conquest is because the number one question everyone asks themselves when they make a build for SPVP is “Can this survive a thief 1v1?”

Every build that can’t defeat a thief 1v1 is pushed out of the meta solely because of that. A thief’s mobility is more than enough to chase down and kill anyone who can’t fight them off every single time they meet. If you can’t beat the thief in a straight fight they’ll farm you the entire match.

Speaking as someone who’s tried many, many times to get a zerker staff ele to work this is my experience. I can deal with just about anything with triple cantrips even as a glass cannon with the exception of being instantly downed by someone I didn’t see there.

So it stands to reason if thieves want more 1v1 power they’d need to lose their god-like mobility to compensate. Similar to how rangers are great at 1v1 but bring nothing else to a team that’s worth while. Hopefully Daredevil will work as a lower mobility 1v1 fighter once the expansion hits and thieves will get the playstyle they want.

For death’s sake when we try to do the trade-off we become useless. Guard is very supportive but they can successfully sacrifice that for a burst playstyle, necro can sacrifice their boon hate,chill,weakness for decent MM even war eventually drop LB for successful trade-off. Thief drops SB and it’s “strike 3 you’re out!!” thief drops d/p “wu..what is wrong with you?!” at the same time “for just 50 dollars you can now get an improved version of what you had before”.

Amante.8109:

Dahkeus.8243:

Well, you could learn to rotate to +1 fights instead of trying to play PvP like it’s some wild west shootout. =P

I mean, learning how to rotate to give fights the +1 advantage at the right time is what give thieves the advantage. They can +1 fights at the right time more than any other class.

Mesmers have a lot of mobility, but their personal mobility doesn’t match their team mobility (portal). So, they can give a port to win a clutch point very often, but they can’t rotate between points by themselves as much since their Z-axis ports are on cooldowns.

And honestly…people here love to talk up a lot of hypotheticals, but the proof is in the pudding. Ask Abjured what the state of thief is. They seem to be doing pretty well winning WTS with a thief, lol.

Yes, Thief is really effective in that one role (mobile decapper and opportunist +1’er). And yet, as always, the assumption is that if someone is complaining about Thief, they must be bad at that role, and/or want Thief to be overpowered in 1v1 combat.

It’s nice that Thieves have a near-guaranteed spot in high level SPvP teams, it really is, but it’s through one narrowly defined build/playstyle that a lot of people simply don’t find enjoyable. It’s also worth considering that not everyone is a high level Thief playing in premade tournaments. Some of us just want to be able to enjoy our profession in solo queue SPvP, which seems like a fair thing to ask.

Quadox.7834:

I agree, there is no tank/bruiser thief. Doesn’t mean thief is unviable in other roles, which people seem to believe. This is something to look at.

Actually, it kinda does, as that’s the entire point people like me are making. Thief doesn’t have the versatility to be viable in SPvP as anything but one VERY rigidly defined playstyle that a lot of people simply don’t find enjoyable (especially in solo queue).

Condi Thief? Not realistic atm, due both to issues with Thief applying damaging conditions, and the wonky state of condition cleanse in SPvP in general.

Bruiser Thief? Completely non-viable, because Thief lacks the durability that other low max HP professions like Ele and Guardian have (blocks, stability, percentage damage reduction, etc). As Thief, this means you can either run a glass cannon stat package and have a chance of doing something, or run something else and do no damage ON TOP of still getting blown up just as fast.

I just want some other options beyond glass cannon D/P + Shortbow decapper Thief. Just about EVERY other profession (save maybe Ranger) has this versatility… are people still so traumatized by 2013 Thief that they’d deny it to us too?

I agree, i meant “That doesnt medan thief is not viable in any role”. My wording got messed up. As always, i should make it clear that i believe a fighter more sustained thief would be awesome, but it should never have superior mobility and disengage at the same time (see ele). You probably know that.

Serious Thought.5394:

I know very few people read or acknowledge my posts (especially considering, the trait incident post aside..was cranky, I am very rarely wrong on anything) but I figure, might as well solve this awkward dispute right ^.^

Currently, Thief is a free kill. No party has denied this.
Thief has massive mobility from literally a SINGLE skill. Everything else is just class emphasizing. No one has denied this.
Many thieves (myself included) have stated that we would give up our shortbow 5 skill (that massive op mobility =P) for some actual balance, buffs, and versatility.

To the important and odd bits. The argument seems to be getting confused. No thief wants to play d/p anymore. Sick, tired, bored, verge of uninstalling. Reason? D/p<->SB DA/SA/TR Vamp/Pack runes. 95% of thieves are playing this build, 99% of thieves are playing D/P weapon set. .6% and .4% is S/D and P/D respectively. Now isn’t that interesting to you non-thief bashers? You are massively traumatized and terrified of thieves being able to contest you. What’s comical, especially to people like me, is that YOU ARE NOT READING WHAT WE THIEVES ARE SAYING. Has to stop.

Thief is the LEAST versatile class in the game, both by weapons and by traits. I hear people arguing Engi and Ele because they look at weapons and seem to forget conjured weapons and kits. Thief? We have a Dagger, Sword, Pistol, and Shortbow. We also used to passively gain damage for dodging or using stealth, now that is gone. We didn’t even get a trade-off like other professions, our SA and Acro were just nerfed. Hard. “But your vigor is better”. Feline Grace for this. Then Feline Grace resold to us for the xpac. If you think we aren’t salty on that, read the other posts. I want a new minor to be quite honest and feline grace returned to old. Alas, no one really plays Thief and no one really nurtures Thief. If you played Daredevil, you will have seen tons of re-used animations and tons of bugs. Far more than I observed on Tempest or Berserker, and those were the new ones as well.

Thief players, like myself, or asking not for buffs. For versatility. For being allowed to play the game differently. I feel like, at times, I am playing Pokemon. With a Magikarp. I can press Splash, Tackle, or Flail. Unfortunately, that’s all I have. I don’t have anything but 6 Magikarp, like some terrible dream. Meanwhile all other professions seem to have an entire team of Electric-Types. If you have no idea what I’m talking about (and I admit, this is kind of vague), look it up. Ask if you have to. Thief needs versatility. Unfortunately, this means changing weapon sets. Pistol pistol needs an almost entire rework, miscellaneous skills need to be made into other things (Death Blossom, seriously. Even condi players don’t use this skill for anything other than it’s multihit), and our trait lines need to just be fixed. Full discussions have been made else where, I am not sure why the argument is here in PvP. No half competent player even remotely argues what Thief’s role is anymore- to decap and provide a +1. But don’t you remember on release, we had some other role. Some other responsibility. Oh! That’s right. We were tasked with fighting other players on our own. Oh goodness me, I almost forgot. Now if we play on equal skill as other players, we get thrashed silly and mindlessly. I see so many mistakes, but the thing is I can no longer punish them. I rolled Thief because it had the capability I seek most in PvP games- to punish other players for bad plays. I was able to do that back in 2013, suddenly 2015 rolls around and if I engage anyone they can just turn and faceroll me dead? Yet, no one finds that odd. Oh well, have fun being in whatever frame of mind this is, hope my post helps you see the light of truth more. Perhaps it won’t, but I did just summarize roughly 140 posts.

Thief is anything but a “free kill”.

There, i denied it.

There should be more thief playstyles though

Exciton.8942:

The current meta SA DP thief has great mobility, utility and survivability. If such build can also contest side point 1v1, it becomes pretty OP. It’s almost like another DD ele.

Remember in an 1v1 against thief, if you lose, you will surely die. The thief has enough gap closer to ensure that happen. However, if the thief loses, he can always leave and find a chance somewhere else.

Thief has always been the No.1 WvW roaming class. This says a lot in its potential of 1v1ing. It’s just that in conquest mode. Thief excels in other areas that it’s worth giving up some personal fighting power for.

This is correct

Thief is anything but a “free kill”.

There, i denied it.

There should be more thief playstyles though[/quote]

And you are the first. Congratulations. First part, I said I was summarizing. Second bit, it may not be literally free- but its pretty darn close. I one shot a Thief with a Haste Whirling Axe on my Warrior (quickness will forever be Haste to me, sorry, FFAT has ruined it forever). I single shatter bursted several more. One Rapid fire followed by knock back and stealth stomp. I can describe all of them, but thief only excels at mobility. In fact, if it weren’t for Shortbow 5 I’d say Guardian has more mobility. Crazy, right? Better part is, I made good on that by promising a friend I’d get him a 2400 range assassination spec >.> Can’t believe it worked. ahem Where was I?

Serious Thought.5394:

And you are the first. Congratulations. First part, I said I was summarizing. Second bit, it may not be literally free- but its pretty darn close. I one shot a Thief with a Haste Whirling Axe on my Warrior (quickness will forever be Haste to me, sorry, FFAT has ruined it forever). I single shatter bursted several more. One Rapid fire followed by knock back and stealth stomp. I can describe all of them, but thief only excels at mobility. In fact, if it weren’t for Shortbow 5 I’d say Guardian has more mobility. Crazy, right? Better part is, I made good on that by promising a friend I’d get him a 2400 range assassination spec >.> Can’t believe it worked. ahem Where was I?

SA incombination with vamp rune means thief is survivable like crazy, to the point where is doesn’t die if played carefully. However, this goes for many classes at the current moment, so it doesn’t mean anything in particular for thief (looking at you, PU mesmer!)

PS. pls remove vampirism rune

Edit: Is guardian that mobile? Shouldn’t ele be mentioned here instead?

Cubotrix.1723:

because from my experience Thief is underpowered to the extreme right now…. every other class can duel him…

can anyone give me any tips?

I made you a brief (27s) Thief instructional

http://youtu.be/u7w638bCJJY

Enjoy.

It remains interesting how the only people who say Thief’s matchups against other classes are fine are those who don’t play one. Things look that nice from the outside, eh?

Serious Thought.5394:

For versatility. For being allowed to play the game differently. I feel like, at times, I am playing Pokemon. With a Magikarp. I can press Splash, Tackle, or Flail. Unfortunately, that’s all I have. I don’t have anything but 6 Magikarp, like some terrible dream. Meanwhile all other professions seem to have an entire team of Electric-Types.

I laughed at this, because it’s painfully true. An excellent post worth reading overall!

Poxxia.1547:

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?

Everyone can decap – technically you just stand on the point alone. That is how it is to look at things in a vacuum.

Not a single thief have come forward and told what relevant classes/builds they want to be able to beat, and what the consequences would be for that class – that I DO find highly relevant. It really boils down to what should be exchanged for the ability to 1vs1.

When you say “both have the role to decap” you are in fact saying so more than that – I wonder if you are aware of that? In some ways it is even in conflict with statements of some of your fellow thieves in this thread. What you are saying is, that only these 2 classes decap (not in line with other thieves) and it seems like you are ok with that? What you also is saying, is that the ability to decap is some fixed thing, and somehow mesmers and thieves have something in common, but mesmers have something more than thief, beside “that thing” they have in common – thief is thereby some kind of subset to mesmers. I don’t think I have words to describe how much I disagree with that kind of interpretation.

Sheesh, I have no clue where you’re getting all of this. I was merely saying thief and mesmer used to be the two professions that most of the time would contest points and decap. Of course any profession can do that but thief has SB5 and mesmer has portal and blink so that would make them more ideal for the job.

The thing is, thief can no longer decap contested points, only empty ones. Because they can’t survive 1v1 against… Well, pretty much anyone. You’re welcome to try 1v1 in ranked/unranked with a thief and you’ll get my point soon enough. Meanwhile mesmer has no such difficulties. And as I said before, thief and mesmer are a natural comparison because they share a role and a playstyle. Only mesmer does it better now.

And… Are you really saying thief needs to sacrifice something in order to be able to 1v1? Good grief get a grip of the game. I can’t even tell if you’re serious or not.

runeblade.7514:

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?

There is a big difference between Mesmers and Thieves.

Thieves have way more mobility than Mesmers. Mesmers have only a 30 second cooldown teleport. Thieves have multiple teleports in the shortbow, and panic skills in the utility bar.

I’m not arguing about mobility, I’m talking about combat capabilities. I was just saying thief and mesmer are both used for decapping and were both used for contesting points, with the difference that thief cannot win 1v1 fast enough or reliably anymore. Usually the thief ends up dead in 1v1. I’d give up my mobility in an instant for some sustain.

A lot of people on this board seem to be suffering from PTTD (Post Traumatic Thief Disorder). This common ailment—contracted years prior when they were still new to the game and having trouble fighting thieves—has followed them for years, causing massive amounts of unwanted stress and anxiety every time they see a nameplate with a little dagger and key or someone wearing the color black.

Relief is possible, but only through arduous and costly measures such as “standing on the point doing nothing” or “mashing a few buttons from 1200 away”. Unfortunately, relief is temporary—as the Thief will respawn and run back to the point to die again, endlessly retriggering the trauma—so I’m afraid the illness is terminal. My condolences.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Cubotrix.1723:

because from my experience Thief is underpowered to the extreme right now…. every other class can duel him…

can anyone give me any tips?

I made you a brief (27s) Thief instructional

http://youtu.be/u7w638bCJJY

Enjoy.

That thief was standing afk or petting his dog. Why would you even post such a video anywhere?

serenke.4806:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Cubotrix.1723:

because from my experience Thief is underpowered to the extreme right now…. every other class can duel him…

can anyone give me any tips?

I made you a brief (27s) Thief instructional

http://youtu.be/u7w638bCJJY

Enjoy.

That thief was standing afk or petting his dog. Why would you even post such a video anywhere?

Demonstrating Thieves place in PvP D:

Target practice.

Relax though. The thief knew what he was doing.

Quadox.7834:

Exciton.8942:

The current meta SA DP thief has great mobility, utility and survivability. If such build can also contest side point 1v1, it becomes pretty OP. It’s almost like another DD ele.

Remember in an 1v1 against thief, if you lose, you will surely die. The thief has enough gap closer to ensure that happen. However, if the thief loses, he can always leave and find a chance somewhere else.

Thief has always been the No.1 WvW roaming class. This says a lot in its potential of 1v1ing. It’s just that in conquest mode. Thief excels in other areas that it’s worth giving up some personal fighting power for.

This is correct

Not true,theif can never hold a point due to stealth,and can not decap sa good as d/d ele or revenant or engi.

Unlike other classes which have hard counters inv frames thiefs have only evade, and stealth ,which confuses only new players,since most skills will follow you in too stealth and dmg you in steallth,you are in no way invurneable in stealth and this is a fact that most ppl ignore.

Unlike other classes ther is only and only one role thief can play now and not very good unleasse you are supper skilled player with ,uber reaction time and coordination.

In most casses if you are realy stuborn and stealth – dmg -run-stealth dmg run after few min you can kill some1 (good player on a class ,with build OPTION ,2 defend or support)defendig point,this how ever more dmgs your team than helps.

Only displacment skill is scorpion wire which is unpredictable and unreliable so you cant decap efficiently.

Sb 5 i would give you any time for decent condi clear utillity skill ,and not the 2 lame options we have now.

Some 1 mention condi Thief and i cant believe that was even considerd and option since any engi ,necro even trap ranger will bring so much more to the team, due to ridiclous cd on venoms and a fact that this needs to be executed in team fights where after first voley you are mostly dead.

Those very same classes i mentioned above will rect you in second condi vs condi.

I dont remember if it was Cb when pistol #3 didnt need to hit to execute then it was the King of a mobility in truth ,simply cause it gave option beside Sb to do so.

Simple conclusion is ANET boxed thiefs in ONE single role which they are not alowed to do best,since ppl still cry about OP stealth,lol

Maris.3164:

Sheesh, I have no clue where you’re getting all of this. I was merely saying thief and mesmer used to be the two professions that most of the time would contest points and decap. Of course any profession can do that but thief has SB5 and mesmer has portal and blink so that would make them more ideal for the job.

The thing is, thief can no longer decap contested points, only empty ones. Because they can’t survive 1v1 against… Well, pretty much anyone. You’re welcome to try 1v1 in ranked/unranked with a thief and you’ll get my point soon enough. Meanwhile mesmer has no such difficulties. And as I said before, thief and mesmer are a natural comparison because they share a role and a playstyle. Only mesmer does it better now.

And… Are you really saying thief needs to sacrifice something in order to be able to 1v1? Good grief get a grip of the game. I can’t even tell if you’re serious or not.

If this was even remotely true you would see mesmers replacing thieves in all top teams due to the gravitation toward low risk, high rewards. They aren’t because thief excels at mobility far more than mesmers, Mesmer has blink and then a long cool down portal. A thief has shortbow 5 for getting up on Z axis as well as good swiftness and can use shortbow 5 every 6 seconds without being left in the lurch. That’s without mentioning the into combat teleports like steal, shadowshot, sword 2 and infiltrators signet for those that still use it.

If you want to be able to duel on point and win against meta builds you will have to give up some mobility because as others have said earlier, if you’re fighting a thief and your build can’t win against them then you’re dead. This is because wherever you go, whatever skill you use a thief can follow and kill you because they have the best mobility. Keeping the mobility in terms of teleports would make thief the apex predator and apex duelist.

Give up some mobility or stealth or a combo of the two and I would have no problems seeing an on point duelling thief or even a bunker thief. Hopefully that is what daredevil will bring and from what I tried in the beta it should do with high weakness application and dodges, both more and the extra effects on them.

The heal and block/stun break utility on daredevil are fantastic, combine with the staff and you can last and win in duels. I dare say with sentinels or soldier amulet you could tank on point, certainly large points like foefire.

I simply find it odd that a full Glass Cannon build cannot reliably engage anyone other than another full Glass Cannon even with advantages such as invisibility and mobility. It seems to defeat the entire purpose of building as a Glass Cannon in the first place.

The main issue is that the Thief’s choices are limited to Glass, Full Glass, or Thicker Glass. It wouldn’t be so bad if the Cannon could actually pack a relevant punch in proportion with the glassiness… without having to rely on trapper/signet builds.

There is no point in playing thief outside of a coordinated team anymore. The class has pretty much become garbage/obsolete ever since the introduction of a third traitline. If it wasn’t for the mobility, teams would probably rather pick any other class, because thieves offer absolutely nothing else. Pretty much any other class has better standing power, damage, team utility, survivability and 1v1 abilities.

The players claiming that thief is in a good spot either don’t play the class or are forum whiners that are responsible for the whole situation. I dare anyone to play non SA thief in PvP and come back claiming that thief is fine. Moreso I dare anyone to play the meta d/p spec outside of coordinated PvP.

We are pidgeonholed into +1 and freecapping for months. I can’t describe how kittening cancer and underwhelming playing thief feels like. You’re basically forced into staying away from fights, especially 1v1’s and just occasionally jump into fights to finish off low targets. Things are even worse outside teamq, if your team loses teamfights or rotates badly you’re basically floating the whole match, as your only strengths are denied by your own team.

To those people comparing Thief role into Mesmer role, please educate yourself as a mesmer before posting some nuisance. Really? the best dueling class in the whole game with his multiple A.i’s, such gross much skill.

Oh and to those Thief getting pigeonholed into one weapon set, runes, and trait Line and crying because lack of sustain, clearly none of you play as one. as well to those having problem against, please do me favor start playing the game play Conquest not Dueling.

As response to the Thread title; My declaration of war will remain the same, Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Chapell.1346:

To those people comparing Thief role into Mesmer role, please educate yourself as a mesmer before posting some nuisance. Really? the best dueling class in the whole game with his multiple A.i’s, such gross much skill.

Oh and to those Thief getting pigeonholed into one weapon set, runes, and trait Line and crying because lack of sustain, clearly none of you play as one. as well to those having problem against, please do me favor start playing the game play Conquest not Dueling.

As response to the Thread title; My declaration of war will remain the same, Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Everyone read your claim. We all also read your claim that P/D thief requires more skill.

Pardon us for disregarding everything you say now but you’ve earned it

T raw.4658:

Chapell.1346:

To those people comparing Thief role into Mesmer role, please educate yourself as a mesmer before posting some nuisance. Really? the best dueling class in the whole game with his multiple A.i’s, such gross much skill.

Oh and to those Thief getting pigeonholed into one weapon set, runes, and trait Line and crying because lack of sustain, clearly none of you play as one. as well to those having problem against, please do me favor start playing the game play Conquest not Dueling.

As response to the Thread title; My declaration of war will remain the same, Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

you’ve earned it

Thank you and don’t you dare to denied me again when i started stating the viability of S/p also P/p because, you stand no chance.

And to those of you stating criticism, this thread is nothing w/o all of you guys.
Clearly player skill issue

Chapell.1346:

the viability of P/p

Clearly player skill issue

topkek.

Chapell.1346:

My declaration of war

War against Thieves in favor of keeping them just as they are? If so then topkek.

Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Topkek.

Thief is fine anywhere but the pvp scene, which is mainly comprised of conquest.
Telling someone to practice when their only gripe is that they dont have the sustainability to do so feasibly is what I can only chalk up as great ignorance.

I’ll say it again: We’re asking for time to fight, not free bags. It’s shocking how many people think that SB #5 should disqualify thieves from being able to do anything -but- port, and even more shocking how people shy away from taking as valid any claims that other classes can be just as mobile without also being trash at 1v1.

And for those of you regurgitating the “But thief is used in hi tier tournaments so it must be fine!” Stop it. That’s stark false cause. Thief being used in any respect does not mean it is fine at all. There are many external factors that can affect those matches, including things like presence of teamspeak that overreach the quality of the class itself.

I don’t want to hear “legendary player X plays it so it must be good”. That’s trash.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Chapell.1346:

the viability of P/p

Clearly player skill issue

topkek.

Chapell.1346:

My declaration of war

War against Thieves in favor of keeping them just as they are? If so then topkek.

Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Topkek.

Thief is fine anywhere but the pvp scene, which is mainly comprised of conquest.
Telling someone to practice when their only gripe is that they dont have the sustainability to do so feasibly is what I can only chalk up as great ignorance.

I’ll say it again: We’re asking for time to fight, not free bags. It’s shocking how many people think that SB #5 should disqualify thieves from being able to do anything -but- port, and even more shocking how people shy away from taking as valid any claims that other classes can be just as mobile without also being trash at 1v1.

And for those of you regurgitating the “But thief is used in hi tier tournaments so it must be fine!” Stop it. That’s stark false cause. Thief being used in any respect does not mean it is fine at all.

Thing is, the meta thief build as it is can’t have more sustain, top players are already calling it unkillable unless they make mistakes. If you mean non meta builds, i agree.

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Chapell.1346:

the viability of P/p

Clearly player skill issue

topkek.

Chapell.1346:

My declaration of war

War against Thieves in favor of keeping them just as they are? If so then topkek.

Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Topkek.

Thief is fine anywhere but the pvp scene, which is mainly comprised of conquest.
Telling someone to practice when their only gripe is that they dont have the sustainability to do so feasibly is what I can only chalk up as great ignorance.

I’ll say it again: We’re asking for time to fight, not free bags. It’s shocking how many people think that SB #5 should disqualify thieves from being able to do anything -but- port, and even more shocking how people shy away from taking as valid any claims that other classes can be just as mobile without also being trash at 1v1.

And for those of you regurgitating the “But thief is used in hi tier tournaments so it must be fine!” Stop it. That’s stark false cause. Thief being used in any respect does not mean it is fine at all.

Thing is, the meta thief build as it is can’t have more sustain, top players are already calling it unkillable unless they make mistakes. If you mean non meta builds, i agree.

Again, I have not said anything about builds. I don’t think I’ve mentioned a specific weapon except SB and its #5, because that seems to be the linchpin that is preventing people from thinking that thieves should not be free kills when encountered alone.

I don’t care about meta anything. The class itself needs a way to sustain.

Your first statement intrigues me, though. Who specifically said thief is “unkillable” unless they make mistakes, and was it before or after the recent patch?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Chapell.1346:

the viability of P/p

Clearly player skill issue

topkek.

Chapell.1346:

My declaration of war

War against Thieves in favor of keeping them just as they are? If so then topkek.

Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Topkek.

Thief is fine anywhere but the pvp scene, which is mainly comprised of conquest.
Telling someone to practice when their only gripe is that they dont have the sustainability to do so feasibly is what I can only chalk up as great ignorance.

I’ll say it again: We’re asking for time to fight, not free bags. It’s shocking how many people think that SB #5 should disqualify thieves from being able to do anything -but- port, and even more shocking how people shy away from taking as valid any claims that other classes can be just as mobile without also being trash at 1v1.

And for those of you regurgitating the “But thief is used in hi tier tournaments so it must be fine!” Stop it. That’s stark false cause. Thief being used in any respect does not mean it is fine at all.

Thing is, the meta thief build as it is can’t have more sustain, top players are already calling it unkillable unless they make mistakes. If you mean non meta builds, i agree.

Again, I have not said anything about builds. I don’t think I’ve mentioned a specific weapon except SB and its #5, because that seems to be the linchpin that is preventing people from thinking that thieves should not be free kills when encountered alone.

I don’t care about meta anything. The class itself needs a way to sustain.

Your first statement intrigues me, though. Who specifically said thief is “unkillable” unless they make mistakes, and was it before or after the recent patch?

The combo of SA and vamp makes them super survivable, but nevermind that, since you don’t care for meta, that’s fine. Thief as a class has way too low sustain for bruiser playstyle outside stealth. I once had the idea to made traits in the same spot as mug (can only take one of them) that would buff steal in different ways, for example:

Mug> damage
Stolen heart> Health, protection (or something)
Somethingsomething> Something else

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Chapell.1346:

the viability of P/p

Clearly player skill issue

topkek.

Chapell.1346:

My declaration of war

War against Thieves in favor of keeping them just as they are? If so then topkek.

Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Topkek.

Thief is fine anywhere but the pvp scene, which is mainly comprised of conquest.
Telling someone to practice when their only gripe is that they dont have the sustainability to do so feasibly is what I can only chalk up as great ignorance.

I’ll say it again: We’re asking for time to fight, not free bags. It’s shocking how many people think that SB #5 should disqualify thieves from being able to do anything -but- port, and even more shocking how people shy away from taking as valid any claims that other classes can be just as mobile without also being trash at 1v1.

And for those of you regurgitating the “But thief is used in hi tier tournaments so it must be fine!” Stop it. That’s stark false cause. Thief being used in any respect does not mean it is fine at all.

Thing is, the meta thief build as it is can’t have more sustain, top players are already calling it unkillable unless they make mistakes. If you mean non meta builds, i agree.

Again, I have not said anything about builds. I don’t think I’ve mentioned a specific weapon except SB and its #5, because that seems to be the linchpin that is preventing people from thinking that thieves should not be free kills when encountered alone.

I don’t care about meta anything. The class itself needs a way to sustain.

Your first statement intrigues me, though. Who specifically said thief is “unkillable” unless they make mistakes, and was it before or after the recent patch?

The combo of SA and vamp makes them super survivable, but nevermind that, since you don’t care for meta, that’s fine. Thief as a class has way too low sustain for bruiser playstyle outside stealth

I’d still like to address the meta build, even though I am not focusing on it.

SA is nice, ill give you that. It could be better, but its good as is.

Vamp is an external factor that people are looking to have nerfed anyway, so I wouldn’t say that makes thief viable in itself. If they nerf vamp, not even the burst playstyle thief has will be viable.

There’s a lot of little tweaks that could be made to help us just plain live.

Ehecatl.9172:

A big reason thieves are bad at 1v1 in Conquest is because the number one question everyone asks themselves when they make a build for SPVP is “Can this survive a thief 1v1?”

Every build that can’t defeat a thief 1v1 is pushed out of the meta solely because of that. A thief’s mobility is more than enough to chase down and kill anyone who can’t fight them off every single time they meet. If you can’t beat the thief in a straight fight they’ll farm you the entire match.

Speaking as someone who’s tried many, many times to get a zerker staff ele to work this is my experience. I can deal with just about anything with triple cantrips even as a glass cannon with the exception of being instantly downed by someone I didn’t see there.

So it stands to reason if thieves want more 1v1 power they’d need to lose their god-like mobility to compensate. Similar to how rangers are great at 1v1 but bring nothing else to a team that’s worth while. Hopefully Daredevil will work as a lower mobility 1v1 fighter once the expansion hits and thieves will get the playstyle they want.

This is exactly right.

There are plenty of builds that a thief can easily beat 1v1. If you think thief is the underdog in every single 1v1 matchup, then it’s definitely a L2P issue. The issue is that, in Conquest, practically no one is going to bring a build that gets hard-countered by thief. The reason is obvious: you can’t out-rotate or escape the thief, so your team would need to babysit you all game if you ran a class that loses to a thief 1v1.

The same isn’t true for the other classes. It isn’t gamebreaking to run a class that gets hardcountered by a burnguard, or a bunkerguard, or a cele sig necro, for example, because you can outrotate those builds to avoid unfavorable matchups. On the flip side, if you hardcounter the guard or necro, you’ll probably be able to chase him down and down him. If you hardcounter the thief, any decent thief will be able to port away and find a better opportunity.

Also, the thief’s role is far more than just decapping uncontested points and stealth-stacking. Levin and Toker certainly do far more than decap points. A thief can still deliver an instant single-target burst that hits about as hard as the mesmer burst, which can down a focused target much faster than just about any other meta build when played right. The thief can also rotate between fights to do this much faster and more frequently than anyone else.

I personally enjoy the role of rapidly appearing in fights and quickly end them for my team, getting off clutch resses/stomps/interrupts, and messing up the enemy team’s strategies and rotations by quickly decapping points. There’s a high skill ceiling for this role, both mechanically and strategically. And no other class can perform it quite as well, which is why every team runs a thief. Mesmers are definitely very strong, but their mobility/disengage skills are on a much longer cooldown (so they’re more about making a few big high-risk, high-reward plays rather than many smaller plays).

I feel like a lot of the thieves who complain want some sort of Rambo/Carry role where they can run around quickly wrecking people in 1v1s and then stealth/porting away when reinforcements arrive (i.e. WvW thieves). This would obviously be broken in PvP, and would probably cause everyone else to play even more bunkery classes (at which point we’ll go back to having thieves complain about how weak they are). This desire to play the Rambo/Carry role is where a good 90% of thief complaints are coming from.

That said, I wouldn’t mind the thief getting a build that trades in mobility and stealth for more of a brawler role. The problem is that it’s hard to incentivize the thief to give up shortbow. I think we’d have to dramatically improve the thief’s other ranged power options (i.e. p/p), and/or create more synergy between the non-bow weapon sets. (That and improving the acrobatics traitline for more non-stealth survivability).

ResJudicator.7916:

-snip-

That said, I wouldn’t mind the thief getting a build that trades in mobility and stealth for more of a brawler role. The problem is that it’s hard to incentivize the thief to give up shortbow. I think we’d have to dramatically improve the thief’s other ranged power options (i.e. p/p), and/or create more synergy between the non-bow weapon sets. (That and improving the acrobatics traitline for more non-stealth survivability).

RE: Snipped

This is essentially my take on the class at the moment.

RE: Quoted

This is acceptable.

‘Free bags’ is bad on any avenue, I will agree with this completely. That is not what I’m looking for. Role delegation is abhorrent.

Pre-patch thieves were able to 1v1 some classes – were they really that OP? No. But you were rewarded if you played well. Right now it is not the case. Playing well means to not engage any combat.
Why are thieves not allowed to be in pre-patch state?

@ResJudicator.7916: thieves don’t want to be super rambo carry there problem rose when bruisers ended up having way too good moblity and pretty high dmg which put whole mobile glassy roamer in question. Either those classes (hello eles, wars and co.) need some dmg/moblity nerfs or thieves need some defensive/dmg buffing(also once again where do mesmers fit in this whole “+1/must suck in 1v1” logic????).
Idc which way but atm the allocation of risk/reward is waaaayy too uneven and trying to justify it with +1 “role” is total horse crap propaganda from uneducated (or) non-thief players.

And just as side note: having 2 of any class (even mesmers, which some teams ran in tourneys) is fine and actually increases winning chances in some cases; having 2 thieves on team is absolutely terrible and any additional thief just increases losing chances in extreme exponential rates -> THIS just screams that there is something very wrong with class design.
Anet had such a great opportunity to finally give a thief a bruiser build with team support (see staff monk) instead they just nerfed acro to give acro 2.0….

I’m over how Thieves “used to” be, both in reality and people’s perceptions. I just want the profession to be fun and versatile in the PRESENT. Buff and rework some skills and traits, throw in some higher base HP, and we’d have a lot more to work with build-wise.

If they’re willing to give us a FULL revamp (which they won’t, for time and other resource reasons), they can take Shortbow #5 in exchange for becoming more well rounded. It’s obviously a design albatross that keeps us playing waterboy as it is.

Amante.8109:

I’m over how Thieves “used to” be, both in reality and people’s perceptions. I just want the profession to be fun and versatile in the PRESENT. Buff and rework some skills and traits, throw in some higher base HP, and we’d have a lot more to work with build-wise.

If they’re willing to give us a FULL revamp (which they won’t, for time and other resource reasons), they can take Shortbow #5 in exchange for becoming more well rounded. It’s obviously a design albatross that keeps us playing waterboy as it is.

I brought pre-patch as an example that whole “+1/must suck otherwise too OP” is baseless argument.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Chapell.1346:

the viability of P/p

Clearly player skill issue

topkek.

Chapell.1346:

My declaration of war

War against Thieves in favor of keeping them just as they are? If so then topkek.

Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Topkek.

Thief is fine anywhere but the pvp scene, which is mainly comprised of conquest.
Telling someone to practice when their only gripe is that they dont have the sustainability to do so feasibly is what I can only chalk up as great ignorance.

I’ll say it again: We’re asking for time to fight, not free bags. It’s shocking how many people think that SB #5 should disqualify thieves from being able to do anything -but- port, and even more shocking how people shy away from taking as valid any claims that other classes can be just as mobile without also being trash at 1v1.

And for those of you regurgitating the “But thief is used in hi tier tournaments so it must be fine!” Stop it. That’s stark false cause. Thief being used in any respect does not mean it is fine at all.

Thing is, the meta thief build as it is can’t have more sustain, top players are already calling it unkillable unless they make mistakes. If you mean non meta builds, i agree.

Again, I have not said anything about builds. I don’t think I’ve mentioned a specific weapon except SB and its #5, because that seems to be the linchpin that is preventing people from thinking that thieves should not be free kills when encountered alone.

I don’t care about meta anything. The class itself needs a way to sustain.

Your first statement intrigues me, though. Who specifically said thief is “unkillable” unless they make mistakes, and was it before or after the recent patch?

The combo of SA and vamp makes them super survivable, but nevermind that, since you don’t care for meta, that’s fine. Thief as a class has way too low sustain for bruiser playstyle outside stealth

I’d still like to address the meta build, even though I am not focusing on it.

SA is nice, ill give you that. It could be better, but its good as is.

Vamp is an external factor that people are looking to have nerfed anyway, so I wouldn’t say that makes thief viable in itself. If they nerf vamp, not even the burst playstyle thief has will be viable.

There’s a lot of little tweaks that could be made to help us just plain live.

SA cannot be better, the traitline is kittening strong man. If anything acro should be the “bruiser” traitline, since daredevil does the dodges.

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Chapell.1346:

the viability of P/p

Clearly player skill issue

topkek.

Chapell.1346:

My declaration of war

War against Thieves in favor of keeping them just as they are? If so then topkek.

Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Topkek.

Thief is fine anywhere but the pvp scene, which is mainly comprised of conquest.
Telling someone to practice when their only gripe is that they dont have the sustainability to do so feasibly is what I can only chalk up as great ignorance.

I’ll say it again: We’re asking for time to fight, not free bags. It’s shocking how many people think that SB #5 should disqualify thieves from being able to do anything -but- port, and even more shocking how people shy away from taking as valid any claims that other classes can be just as mobile without also being trash at 1v1.

And for those of you regurgitating the “But thief is used in hi tier tournaments so it must be fine!” Stop it. That’s stark false cause. Thief being used in any respect does not mean it is fine at all.

Thing is, the meta thief build as it is can’t have more sustain, top players are already calling it unkillable unless they make mistakes. If you mean non meta builds, i agree.

Again, I have not said anything about builds. I don’t think I’ve mentioned a specific weapon except SB and its #5, because that seems to be the linchpin that is preventing people from thinking that thieves should not be free kills when encountered alone.

I don’t care about meta anything. The class itself needs a way to sustain.

Your first statement intrigues me, though. Who specifically said thief is “unkillable” unless they make mistakes, and was it before or after the recent patch?

The combo of SA and vamp makes them super survivable, but nevermind that, since you don’t care for meta, that’s fine. Thief as a class has way too low sustain for bruiser playstyle outside stealth

I’d still like to address the meta build, even though I am not focusing on it.

SA is nice, ill give you that. It could be better, but its good as is.

Vamp is an external factor that people are looking to have nerfed anyway, so I wouldn’t say that makes thief viable in itself. If they nerf vamp, not even the burst playstyle thief has will be viable.

There’s a lot of little tweaks that could be made to help us just plain live.

SA cannot be better, the traitline is kittening strong man. If anything acro should be the “bruiser” traitline, since daredevil does the dodges.

Acro is fine to buff to be sure; I miss my deception recharge reduction, though. who’d take that paired with a “here I am” smokefield on down, especially with condi cleanse on the same tier?

I dont -need- it though. current is fine. Just whining nostalgia.

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Chapell.1346:

the viability of P/p

Clearly player skill issue

topkek.

Chapell.1346:

My declaration of war

War against Thieves in favor of keeping them just as they are? If so then topkek.

Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Topkek.

Thief is fine anywhere but the pvp scene, which is mainly comprised of conquest.
Telling someone to practice when their only gripe is that they dont have the sustainability to do so feasibly is what I can only chalk up as great ignorance.

I’ll say it again: We’re asking for time to fight, not free bags. It’s shocking how many people think that SB #5 should disqualify thieves from being able to do anything -but- port, and even more shocking how people shy away from taking as valid any claims that other classes can be just as mobile without also being trash at 1v1.

And for those of you regurgitating the “But thief is used in hi tier tournaments so it must be fine!” Stop it. That’s stark false cause. Thief being used in any respect does not mean it is fine at all.

Thing is, the meta thief build as it is can’t have more sustain, top players are already calling it unkillable unless they make mistakes. If you mean non meta builds, i agree.

Again, I have not said anything about builds. I don’t think I’ve mentioned a specific weapon except SB and its #5, because that seems to be the linchpin that is preventing people from thinking that thieves should not be free kills when encountered alone.

I don’t care about meta anything. The class itself needs a way to sustain.

Your first statement intrigues me, though. Who specifically said thief is “unkillable” unless they make mistakes, and was it before or after the recent patch?

The combo of SA and vamp makes them super survivable, but nevermind that, since you don’t care for meta, that’s fine. Thief as a class has way too low sustain for bruiser playstyle outside stealth

I’d still like to address the meta build, even though I am not focusing on it.

SA is nice, ill give you that. It could be better, but its good as is.

Vamp is an external factor that people are looking to have nerfed anyway, so I wouldn’t say that makes thief viable in itself. If they nerf vamp, not even the burst playstyle thief has will be viable.

There’s a lot of little tweaks that could be made to help us just plain live.

SA cannot be better, the traitline is kittening strong man. If anything acro should be the “bruiser” traitline, since daredevil does the dodges.

The only problem with that is: no matter how many defensive traits thieves pick, they will still die in 2-3 hits. Dropping all offensive traits just gets you killed faster because most of thief defensive power is… offensive, putting pressure; they lack stab/invuls/blocks etc. , mirriad of passives like other classes have and scale very bad with defensive stats.

Investing into offensives atm also doesn’t really reward much as thieves somehow ended up doing in average less damage than a lot of classes/builds thanks to uneven buffing/nerfing across classes.
Just a simple example: before patch you could actually fight and beat ele if you timed ice stab, if you interrupted fire, blinded/stealthed air and put pressure/poison in water/earth. The whole tactic went into bin because anet decided to throw more strong passives at eles (see fire trait line) + maxing out 3 traits lines is possible now. Thief on other hand had acro/sa/crit strikes nerfed.

Cynz.9437:

Dropping all offensive traits just gets you killed faster because most of thief defensive power is… offensive,

We need this point to be firmly established in the minds of people that are going “just run bunker, uggggggh”.

We cant. A thief that doesnt make someone panic with spike damage is easy bag, unless there’s sustain to be had

which is what we’re asking for

Cynz.9437:

Pre-patch thieves were able to 1v1 some classes – were they really that OP? No. But you were rewarded if you played well. Right now it is not the case. Playing well means to not engage any combat.
Why are thieves not allowed to be in pre-patch state?

@ResJudicator.7916: thieves don’t want to be super rambo carry there problem rose when bruisers ended up having way too good moblity and pretty high dmg which put whole mobile glassy roamer in question. Either those classes (hello eles, wars and co.) need some dmg/moblity nerfs or thieves need some defensive/dmg buffing(also once again where do mesmers fit in this whole “+1/must suck in 1v1” logic????).
Idc which way but atm the allocation of risk/reward is waaaayy too uneven and trying to justify it with +1 “role” is total horse crap propaganda from uneducated (or) non-thief players.

And just as side note: having 2 of any class (even mesmers, which some teams ran in tourneys) is fine and actually increases winning chances in some cases; having 2 thieves on team is absolutely terrible and any additional thief just increases losing chances in extreme exponential rates -> THIS just screams that there is something very wrong with class design.
Anet had such a great opportunity to finally give a thief a bruiser build with team support (see staff monk) instead they just nerfed acro to give acro 2.0….

Prepatch, thieves still had unfavorable 1v1 matchups vs. cele ele, engie, and shoutbow (which made up like 3/5 to 4/5 of the team). Engie could practically just shotgun nades at his feet whenever the thief went in for a burst. Thieves had a favorable matchup against mesmer, but few teams ran mesmer.

Postpatch, thieves still have unfavorable 1v1 matchups vs. most of the meta builds. And they still have a favorable matchup against portal mesmer (although it takes a little longer to down the mesmer than before due to PU and Blinding-On-Shatter). The meta builds have changed, but the number of favorable/unfavorable 1v1 matchups for thief is largely the same.

I also don’t agree that a good thief should avoid combat entirely — I assume you were exaggerating. Avoiding 1v1s is not the same as avoiding combat altogether. Thieves still have very strong burst damage, and can reliably apply a stun while stripping stab, which makes them great at helping a team quickly focus down a target. The auto-stealth on res is also huge.

Finally, I already addressed your question about where mesmers fit in. They have a greater impact than thieves in a fight, but are far less mobile than what SB5 allows. Portal allows them to make some big mobility plays, but it is on a long CD. And thief has a favorable matchup vs portal mesmer anyway.

As for 1v1 potential, most of the meta builds can still take/hold a point vs portal mesmer.

Again, you seem to be of the mindset that a thief can only decap uncontested points or down players that were already going to die, which is absolutely not the case. If it were, then I would agree that would truly be a terrible role. But the reality is that a good thief can contribute far more than that.

That said, I again agree that thief should be given a bruiser build that trades in mobility/stealth for more survivability. But the meta D/P build definitely doesn’t need more buffing.

Again, the reason why meta-D/P struggles vs. meta builds is because any build that gets countered by meta-D/P becomes unviable in Conquest and therefore falls out of the meta. As long as thief has the mobility and disengage potential it currently has, people are going to shy away from builds that lose to it.

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Chapell.1346:

the viability of P/p

Clearly player skill issue

topkek.

Chapell.1346:

My declaration of war

War against Thieves in favor of keeping them just as they are? If so then topkek.

Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Topkek.

Thief is fine anywhere but the pvp scene, which is mainly comprised of conquest.
Telling someone to practice when their only gripe is that they dont have the sustainability to do so feasibly is what I can only chalk up as great ignorance.

I’ll say it again: We’re asking for time to fight, not free bags. It’s shocking how many people think that SB #5 should disqualify thieves from being able to do anything -but- port, and even more shocking how people shy away from taking as valid any claims that other classes can be just as mobile without also being trash at 1v1.

And for those of you regurgitating the “But thief is used in hi tier tournaments so it must be fine!” Stop it. That’s stark false cause. Thief being used in any respect does not mean it is fine at all.

Thing is, the meta thief build as it is can’t have more sustain, top players are already calling it unkillable unless they make mistakes. If you mean non meta builds, i agree.

Again, I have not said anything about builds. I don’t think I’ve mentioned a specific weapon except SB and its #5, because that seems to be the linchpin that is preventing people from thinking that thieves should not be free kills when encountered alone.

I don’t care about meta anything. The class itself needs a way to sustain.

Your first statement intrigues me, though. Who specifically said thief is “unkillable” unless they make mistakes, and was it before or after the recent patch?

The combo of SA and vamp makes them super survivable, but nevermind that, since you don’t care for meta, that’s fine. Thief as a class has way too low sustain for bruiser playstyle outside stealth

I’d still like to address the meta build, even though I am not focusing on it.

SA is nice, ill give you that. It could be better, but its good as is.

Vamp is an external factor that people are looking to have nerfed anyway, so I wouldn’t say that makes thief viable in itself. If they nerf vamp, not even the burst playstyle thief has will be viable.

There’s a lot of little tweaks that could be made to help us just plain live.

SA cannot be better, the traitline is kittening strong man. If anything acro should be the “bruiser” traitline, since daredevil does the dodges.

SA is only acceptable if you are using d/p SE nerf and CiS and SRej next to each other killed it for other sets.

ResJudicator.7916:

Ehecatl.9172:

A big reason thieves are bad at 1v1 in Conquest is because the number one question everyone asks themselves when they make a build for SPVP is “Can this survive a thief 1v1?”

Every build that can’t defeat a thief 1v1 is pushed out of the meta solely because of that. A thief’s mobility is more than enough to chase down and kill anyone who can’t fight them off every single time they meet. If you can’t beat the thief in a straight fight they’ll farm you the entire match.

Speaking as someone who’s tried many, many times to get a zerker staff ele to work this is my experience. I can deal with just about anything with triple cantrips even as a glass cannon with the exception of being instantly downed by someone I didn’t see there.

So it stands to reason if thieves want more 1v1 power they’d need to lose their god-like mobility to compensate. Similar to how rangers are great at 1v1 but bring nothing else to a team that’s worth while. Hopefully Daredevil will work as a lower mobility 1v1 fighter once the expansion hits and thieves will get the playstyle they want.

This is exactly right.

There are plenty of builds that a thief can easily beat 1v1. If you think thief is the underdog in every single 1v1 matchup, then it’s definitely a L2P issue. The issue is that, in Conquest, practically no one is going to bring a build that gets hard-countered by thief. The reason is obvious: you can’t out-rotate or escape the thief, so your team would need to babysit you all game if you ran a class that loses to a thief 1v1.

The same isn’t true for the other classes. It isn’t gamebreaking to run a class that gets hardcountered by a burnguard, or a bunkerguard, or a cele sig necro, for example, because you can outrotate those builds to avoid unfavorable matchups. On the flip side, if you hardcounter the guard or necro, you’ll probably be able to chase him down and down him. If you hardcounter the thief, any decent thief will be able to port away and find a better opportunity.

Also, the thief’s role is far more than just decapping uncontested points and stealth-stacking. Levin and Toker certainly do far more than decap points. A thief can still deliver an instant single-target burst that hits about as hard as the mesmer burst, which can down a focused target much faster than just about any other meta build when played right. The thief can also rotate between fights to do this much faster and more frequently than anyone else.

I personally enjoy the role of rapidly appearing in fights and quickly end them for my team, getting off clutch resses/stomps/interrupts, and messing up the enemy team’s strategies and rotations by quickly decapping points. There’s a high skill ceiling for this role, both mechanically and strategically. And no other class can perform it quite as well, which is why every team runs a thief. Mesmers are definitely very strong, but their mobility/disengage skills are on a much longer cooldown (so they’re more about making a few big high-risk, high-reward plays rather than many smaller plays).

I feel like a lot of the thieves who complain want some sort of Rambo/Carry role where they can run around quickly wrecking people in 1v1s and then stealth/porting away when reinforcements arrive (i.e. WvW thieves). This would obviously be broken in PvP, and would probably cause everyone else to play even more bunkery classes (at which point we’ll go back to having thieves complain about how weak they are). This desire to play the Rambo/Carry role is where a good 90% of thief complaints are coming from.

That said, I wouldn’t mind the thief getting a build that trades in mobility and stealth for more of a brawler role. The problem is that it’s hard to incentivize the thief to give up shortbow. I think we’d have to dramatically improve the thief’s other ranged power options (i.e. p/p), and/or create more synergy between the non-bow weapon sets. (That and improving the acrobatics traitline for more non-stealth survivability).

+1. This is pretty much exactly what I feel.

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?

Everyone can decap – technically you just stand on the point alone. That is how it is to look at things in a vacuum.

Not a single thief have come forward and told what relevant classes/builds they want to be able to beat, and what the consequences would be for that class – that I DO find highly relevant. It really boils down to what should be exchanged for the ability to 1vs1.

When you say “both have the role to decap” you are in fact saying so more than that – I wonder if you are aware of that? In some ways it is even in conflict with statements of some of your fellow thieves in this thread. What you are saying is, that only these 2 classes decap (not in line with other thieves) and it seems like you are ok with that? What you also is saying, is that the ability to decap is some fixed thing, and somehow mesmers and thieves have something in common, but mesmers have something more than thief, beside “that thing” they have in common – thief is thereby some kind of subset to mesmers. I don’t think I have words to describe how much I disagree with that kind of interpretation.

Sheesh, I have no clue where you’re getting all of this. I was merely saying thief and mesmer used to be the two professions that most of the time would contest points and decap. Of course any profession can do that but thief has SB5 and mesmer has portal and blink so that would make them more ideal for the job.

The thing is, thief can no longer decap contested points, only empty ones. Because they can’t survive 1v1 against… Well, pretty much anyone. You’re welcome to try 1v1 in ranked/unranked with a thief and you’ll get my point soon enough. Meanwhile mesmer has no such difficulties. And as I said before, thief and mesmer are a natural comparison because they share a role and a playstyle. Only mesmer does it better now.

And… Are you really saying thief needs to sacrifice something in order to be able to 1v1? Good grief get a grip of the game. I can’t even tell if you’re serious or not.

Scroll down to ResJudicator’s posts, and you will see pretty much exactly how I feel, but being put so much more precisely. Since I am not able to be so much right now, I suggest you can redirect your opinions to his posts (this said with all due respect etc).

The number one question I ask myself regarding any build is how it stands vs a thief. That sort of thinking does have an impact on how the metas are shaped.
SB5 and mesmers portal/blink is like comparing apples and oranges, but I sure know which mobility I find “unconditionally the best” – ResJudicator has addressed this, if you need elaboration.

So the main consensus of non thief players seems to be that we shouldn’t be buffed, because there is one fairly decent build, namely SA D/P, whilst everything else (be it traitlines or weaponsets) just straight out suck.

I’ll gladly trade a hefty SA nerf for any substential buff to CS or Acro and thus remove the passive proc creep that infested this game since the June patch. The main issue is that any viable defense is bound to Shadow Arts, whilst the other traitlines offer absolutely nothing to increase sustain.

It’s an absolulte Nobrainer to pick SA, because it offers so much passive kitten and is just overall so much better than the other traitlines:
- Passive stealth on rez + increased rez speed
- Passive condi cleanse in stealth
- Passive Stealth increasement (1s)
- Stealth on steal
- Reduced damage in stealth
- HEALING in stealth

Like, what the kitten where they thinking when they balanced this class? They nerfed a already Subpar Traitline/ Gamestyle (Acro S/D) and buffed the strongest thief build (D/P SA).

ANet shattered any build diversity by buffing thieves passive defense and completly wrecking active defense. I don’t get how anyone can truly enjoy this game anymore, the June Patch turned every class into Passive Wars 2, theres no active defense whatsoever, the better/more passive your traits are, the more likely your build is gonna be viable.

GW2 has become so casual, you just need to take a look at the meta builds. Neither D/D Ele, nor SA thief, nor Shoutbow, nor cele Necro etc. takes any deeper class knowledge to be efficient, because they’re carried by passive kitten & Vamp Rune. Such a poor attempt to bait new players into PvP ANet, seriously. Promoting cheap eazymode passive builds for any class to dumb down the game even more.

Laquito, firstly don’t presume that the people who disagree with “thief mains” don’t play thief. It isn’t my main but it is 3rd on my list of most time played with only my main ele (I started before it was as OP as now) and guardian beating it and mainly because of PvE.

Secondly most people are not saying it shouldn’t be buffed because of DP. They are saying you must trade in some mobility or/and stealth if you want a bruiser spec. If you buffed thief to be able to beat the current meta builds 1 on 1 then thieves would be the apex predators of the game as no-one has more mobility than a thief without a long cool down. You won’t be able to get away from them and you won’t be able to beat them to a point.

ResJudicator has clearly and concisely put how I feel about thief so I’ll refer you to his post for the details.

Sagat.3285:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Chapell.1346:

the viability of P/p

Clearly player skill issue

topkek.

Chapell.1346:

My declaration of war

War against Thieves in favor of keeping them just as they are? If so then topkek.

Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Topkek.

Thief is fine anywhere but the pvp scene, which is mainly comprised of conquest.
Telling someone to practice when their only gripe is that they dont have the sustainability to do so feasibly is what I can only chalk up as great ignorance.

I’ll say it again: We’re asking for time to fight, not free bags. It’s shocking how many people think that SB #5 should disqualify thieves from being able to do anything -but- port, and even more shocking how people shy away from taking as valid any claims that other classes can be just as mobile without also being trash at 1v1.

And for those of you regurgitating the “But thief is used in hi tier tournaments so it must be fine!” Stop it. That’s stark false cause. Thief being used in any respect does not mean it is fine at all.

Thing is, the meta thief build as it is can’t have more sustain, top players are already calling it unkillable unless they make mistakes. If you mean non meta builds, i agree.

Again, I have not said anything about builds. I don’t think I’ve mentioned a specific weapon except SB and its #5, because that seems to be the linchpin that is preventing people from thinking that thieves should not be free kills when encountered alone.

I don’t care about meta anything. The class itself needs a way to sustain.

Your first statement intrigues me, though. Who specifically said thief is “unkillable” unless they make mistakes, and was it before or after the recent patch?

The combo of SA and vamp makes them super survivable, but nevermind that, since you don’t care for meta, that’s fine. Thief as a class has way too low sustain for bruiser playstyle outside stealth

I’d still like to address the meta build, even though I am not focusing on it.

SA is nice, ill give you that. It could be better, but its good as is.

Vamp is an external factor that people are looking to have nerfed anyway, so I wouldn’t say that makes thief viable in itself. If they nerf vamp, not even the burst playstyle thief has will be viable.

There’s a lot of little tweaks that could be made to help us just plain live.

SA cannot be better, the traitline is kittening strong man. If anything acro should be the “bruiser” traitline, since daredevil does the dodges.

SA is only acceptable if you are using d/p SE nerf and CiS and SRej next to each other killed it for other sets.

Then DP needs nerfs/changes

Quadox.7834:

Then DP needs nerfs/changes

Wait, what? Yeah lets make CS D/P even less viable. The only thing that needs to be changed is going back to the old Trait System with 7 possible choices instead of 9.

Other than that you’ll need to nerf SA, because – as of now- it completly overshines any other build.

Hi,
I followed this thread and read all posts (I think).
I am not going to dive into the many topics being discussed here in parallel but for me there seems to be one argument underlying all of them:

Disclaimer: Thief main/defender here. I have all classes but engi and hunter at level 80 and play them all in pvp.

I read quite a few posts in the thief-is-okay camp that postulate that “if thief wants to beat others in 1v1 then …” “beating” seems to be used in the form of allways beating or with a great chance of success.
What I feel most of the “thief is up”-crowd wants is basically that thief has an equal chance to beat other classes. The better player should decide the match not the better class.

I would like to make the following thought experiment (can I say this?):

On the + side

1. It is accepted by most that thief is the most mobile class due to SB5
2. It is dabated if thief is the best +1 class. I personally think it is not. Warrior and Mesmer are better at it I would say but one can disagree. So let us take the +1 as a feature of the thief class.

On the – side

1. Most people posting here, I feel, also accept that the thief class has virtually no chance of winning a fight against an equally skilled player of any other class (I compare meta builds here as I somehow have to limit the set of permutations and this seems feasible because takking first time players and non functional speccs into consideration serves no means in the context of this discussion).
   #No point holding capability due to stealth and the fact that one simply loses agains equally skilled players. (I know that “equally skilled” weakens my argument because I could basically postulate that whenever I win the other player was unskilled when in-fact my class carries me – I am aware of that but as this is the only way to compare classes – taking the player skill out of the equation – I see no other way)

As a counter example let us use Warrior (On a GS/H – Build for example)(not mesmer Because I do not want to derail the discussion by inviting that crowd ^.^):
on the + side:

1. Good mobility albeit less good than thief.
2. great 1v1 capability
3. great teamfight capabilities (elite)
4. Extremely great sustain, CC, Dmg output
5. Great point holding capabilities

on the – side:

1. not very good in condi cleanse compared to other classes but not much worse than thief actually, I think it depends a little of the nerf to condi cleanse in stealth has been reverted or not (I have to admit I am not quite sure if the fact that thief goint into stealth only starts dropping conditions after three seconds and not initially and then after three seconds has been reverted or if it is still in effect, need to check that).

No let us just assume giving the thief class (not the player as we removed the player variable from the formula) a 50/50 chance of winnging agains a warrior on point if both players are playing equally well.
This would leave the thief class with its superior mobility.
The warrior however would still be able to:

1. decap points from the thief because of stealth
2. would still retain its great teamfight capabilities
3. would retain its superior cc abilities (which is in fact just a part of the teamfight capabilities so scrap that)
4. retain its great point holding capabilities (keep in mind: This is against the thief class. Warrior against mage may look different but that is, as the sages say: Another story)

This would hoewever mean that the thief has a chance of getting the point back by dropping the warrior.

Also the argument that mobility + 1v1 capability = thief kills everyone makes no sense objectively because if the balancing is 50/50 hunting =/= winning. It would only mean that, if the thief decides that he has to hunt someone in order to win he will have a CHANCE of fullfilling this goal which would be exactly 50% (Again: Please do separate this class balancing discussion from discussions of player skill etc.).

As it stands now, if anyone decides to harrass a thief, he can do so with >>50% chance of succeeding (by e. g. positioning her-/himself smartly killing the thief when he tries to move through a chokepoint).

I feel (naturally or I would not have written this post) that the scenario above does not make the thief in the least overpowered against the warrior, even if you as a reader are of the stone/paper/scissors-school of thought (which I THINK was actually postulated as something not desired by ANet in their manifest). On the contrary it would still give the warrior roles where it would be stronger than the thief.
Point holder for example. Thief and warrior have both a 50% chance to win but the warrior can cap the point as soon as the thief enters stealth while fighting.
Teamfight capabilities are also much stronger for warrior as for thief due to great aoe cc abilities and sustain (and banners but these are not used in most meta builds so I will not bring them in here).

This would create two classes with different roles:
*teamfight/pointholder/bruiser -> Warrior
*roamer/point capper (with 50/50 chance if contested)/ +1 fast dropper -> thief

LEGEND:
=/=: “does not equal”
>>XX% : “much greater than XX percent”