Guild Wars 2

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Choppy.4183:

Martym.6971:

I never argued equivalence. I said YOU achieved. I didn’t say everyone. Nice strawman though. For future reference, try reading my post thoroughly.

You stated the game is on auto-pilot for you after thousands of hours. The quote that I quoted had absolutely no mention of anything BUT auto-pilot from you. I never argued equivalence after 1000’s of hours. Matter of fact I argued AGAINST it.

I stated that Thieves overtook Warriors in the very post you quoted after time investment. Perception is not your strong suit, and making strawmans based on factually made-up and invented nonsense seems to be your strong suit.

Yeah, see, the cool thing about forums is you can go back and refer to what people actually said.

First of all, you were talking to DeceiverX, not me. Second, if you want to go back to the original claim then you’re saying newly levelled warriors, DHs, etc. are like running autopilot, because, that’s the bit you responded to in DeceiverX’s post. It’s not the number of hours that’s the equivalence you were arguing, it’s the substance of both being in a state of autopilot.

Do you… have that much trouble killing newly levelled warriors and DHs?

Martym.6971:

DeceiverX.8361:

Several thousand hours of core D/D power and Daredevil almost puts the game on autopilot for me, frankly. It’s incredibly spammy. I don’t even find it fun.

Maybe better now with the cut endurance gain access from sigils and base from Daredevil, but comparatively speaking, unless comparing to pre-nerf ghost thief, the spec allows for massive misplays to not be immediately punishable by death and allows for a lot of minor misplays with relative impunity of facing those consequences.

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve. Thief OP. Nerf skill.

It doesn’t matter who I responded to, that is what I quoted and replied to. And that was a comparison I did make, you are correct. And for the most part it’s correct. It’s very slightly overexaggerated but nonetheless it’s a fair comparison in time investment to skill cap. Warriors are a much simpler class with a lower skill cap, so now are you arguing against that?

I would ask as to why you’re asking me questions about newly leveled Warriors and DH and my ability to kill them when I stated Thieves overtake them? You’re trying to invent some fake argument based on something I never pushed, and you’re moving the goal post.

Matter of fact I said the opposite, that Warriors do die when you graduate from new Thief to experienced. Thief is a 1v1 class, it was made to 1v1 all classes. And if a Thief is at a level of play that is above average, they will most certainly kill every other class. This is by sheer design due to their inability to battle zergs but only in Shortbow.

I am trying to understand what exactly you are trying to argue here. About misplay vs consequence tuning? I hardly see an issue here either. Sure Thieves can get away anytime they wish, but if a Thief misplays and runs, you should also create distance besides give chase to refresh your own cooldowns.

You cannot expect to balance a game around 1v1s. So you’re telling me what I was arguing now? Please tell me how Thief is on auto-pilot for everyone. It’s simply not true.

Martym.6971:

It doesn’t matter who I responded to, that is what I quoted and replied to. And that was a comparison I did make, you are correct. And for the most part it’s correct. It’s very slightly overexaggerated but nonetheless it’s a fair comparison in time investment to skill cap. Warriors are a much simpler class with a lower skill cap, so now are you arguing against that?

I would ask as to why you’re asking me questions about newly leveled Warriors and DH and my ability to kill them when I stated Thieves overtake them? You’re trying to invent some fake argument based on something I never pushed, and you’re moving the goal post.

Matter of fact I said the opposite, that Warriors do die when you graduate from new Thief to experienced. Thief is a 1v1 class, it was made to 1v1 all classes. And if a Thief is at a level of play that is above average, they will most certainly kill every other class. This is by sheer design due to their inability to battle zergs but only in Shortbow.

I am trying to understand what exactly you are trying to argue here. About misplay vs consequence tuning? I hardly see an issue here either. Sure Thieves can get away anytime they wish, but if a Thief misplays and runs, you should also create distance besides give chase to refresh your own cooldowns.

You cannot expect to balance a game around 1v1s. So you’re telling me what I was arguing now? Please tell me how Thief is on auto-pilot for everyone. It’s simply not true.

Again, it’s grossly exaggerated. As noted previously, warrior does indeed have a lower skill floor than thief. But anyone operating at the skill floor of either profession will get crushed by even an average player, so it’s fairly irrelevant at this stage in the game.

And, as others and I have said, thief doesn’t have a particularly high skill floor anymore either. It’s got plenty of cover for mistakes, and it doesn’t take that long to learn how to use them either. But at no point have I said that thief is autopilot, that’s something DeceiverX said for him (after thousands of hours) and something you said is possible for other classes at level 80.

Finally, do note that three other people called you out on your claims, so it’s not as though it’s just me. At least two of them (maybe three) are thief mains too.

Martym.6971:

This is by sheer design due to their inability to battle zergs but only in Shortbow.

There is no ‘design’ in regard to WvW, the classes were designed and balanced around “e-sports” in this game, WvW (and PvE at that time) was barely considered.

So thief being surplus to requirements in zergs is no more relevant than engy, ranger, etc also being surplus to requirements, how a class performs in zergs has never been a consideration, which goes for WvW fullstop, which is why so much in that game mode is a broken imbalanced, unskilled joke and as much as guards have been an irreplaceable broken OP class for large scale, equally thief has been just as broken ez-mode for small scale, because they simply have never considered WvW in any meaningful way when it comes to class design/balance.

Oh and as for the “skill-cap” of combat in this game, newsflash the combat in this game is relatively low skilled and designed for casual/bad players to give the feeling of action combat without having to do anything difficult like aim, meaningfully manage resources, require any real mechanical ability or twitch, etc.

Choppy.4183:

Martym.6971:

It doesn’t matter who I responded to, that is what I quoted and replied to. And that was a comparison I did make, you are correct. And for the most part it’s correct. It’s very slightly overexaggerated but nonetheless it’s a fair comparison in time investment to skill cap. Warriors are a much simpler class with a lower skill cap, so now are you arguing against that?

I would ask as to why you’re asking me questions about newly leveled Warriors and DH and my ability to kill them when I stated Thieves overtake them? You’re trying to invent some fake argument based on something I never pushed, and you’re moving the goal post.

Matter of fact I said the opposite, that Warriors do die when you graduate from new Thief to experienced. Thief is a 1v1 class, it was made to 1v1 all classes. And if a Thief is at a level of play that is above average, they will most certainly kill every other class. This is by sheer design due to their inability to battle zergs but only in Shortbow.

I am trying to understand what exactly you are trying to argue here. About misplay vs consequence tuning? I hardly see an issue here either. Sure Thieves can get away anytime they wish, but if a Thief misplays and runs, you should also create distance besides give chase to refresh your own cooldowns.

You cannot expect to balance a game around 1v1s. So you’re telling me what I was arguing now? Please tell me how Thief is on auto-pilot for everyone. It’s simply not true.

Again, it’s grossly exaggerated. As noted previously, warrior does indeed have a lower skill floor than thief. But anyone operating at the skill floor of either profession will get crushed by even an average player, so it’s fairly irrelevant at this stage in the game.

And, as others and I have said, thief doesn’t have a particularly high skill floor anymore either. It’s got plenty of cover for mistakes, and it doesn’t take that long to learn how to use them either. But at no point have I said that thief is autopilot, that’s something DeceiverX said for him (after thousands of hours) and something you said is possible for other classes at level 80.

Finally, do note that three other people called you out on your claims, so it’s not as though it’s just me. At least two of them (maybe three) are thief mains too.

You have much subjective argument without factual evidence to support your claims. I have made no claims other than the obvious class mechanics which is common knowledge and is widely regarded as fact. The only one with “claims” here is you.

zinkz.7045:

Martym.6971:

This is by sheer design due to their inability to battle zergs but only in Shortbow.

There is no ‘design’ in regard to WvW, the classes were designed and balanced around “e-sports” in this game, WvW (and PvE at that time) was barely considered.

So thief being surplus to requirements in zergs is no more relevant than engy, ranger, etc also being surplus to requirements, how a class performs in zergs has never been a consideration, which goes for WvW fullstop, which is why so much in that game mode is a broken imbalanced, unskilled joke and as much as guards have been an irreplaceable broken OP class for large scale, equally thief has been just as broken ez-mode for small scale, because they simply have never considered WvW in any meaningful way when it comes to class design/balance.

Oh and as for the “skill-cap” of combat in this game, newsflash the combat in this game is relatively low skilled and designed for casual/bad players to give the feeling of action combat without having to do anything difficult like aim, meaningfully manage resources, require any real mechanical ability or twitch, etc.

So you are trying to push an argument forward they balanced for “e-sports”, and wish to also make an argument for how they never balanced for 1v1 or WvW, yet you want Thief balanced around one or the other?

I hate to break the news to you, but in MMOs, stealth classes are designed to be balanced around 1v1 combat and to be the superior 1v1 class, only achievable at higher skill caps. This is how they balanced Thief for “e-sports”. The e-sports as seen in tourneys Thieves goals is to +1 fights and back cap, just like WvW.

So this claim is completely false. Also for your “claims” about “skill”, go back to WoW if you want macros, and add-ons to do all your work for you. Because GW2 has none of this nonsense and they are limited to 1 keystroke 1 action besides WoW being able to macro the whole class and auto targeting via keybinds with CC and cross DPS built into the same macro.

Martym.6971:

So you are trying to push an argument forward they balanced for “e-sports”

There is no argument, the combat/skills in this game were designed around PvP and what Teldo & Co wanted, go ask a player in Alpha (or go find Sacrx’s video on it), or go find the old streams that Jon Peters, Jonathan Sharp, etc (if they still exist?) did earlier in the game explaining the balance changes they made, virtually everything was in relation to PvP conquest. (apparently this is coming as news to you, but back at the start of the game the “vision” was PvP was the serious hardcore bit and PvE/WvW were for casual fun.)

Martym.6971:

maybe you play o and wish to also make an argument for how they never balanced for 1v1 or WvW, yet you want Thief balanced around one or the other?

I don’t “want” anything, WvW is a dying game mode, and 5 years in is little late to start balancing thief or anything else, I’m just pointing out that the idea that thief or any other class is designed or balanced with WvW in mind in any meaningful sense is nonsense.

Martym.6971:

I hate to break the news to you, but in MMOs, stealth classes are designed to be balanced around 1v1 combat and to be the superior 1v1 class, only achievable at higher skill caps. This is how they balanced Thief for “e-sports”. The e-sports as seen in tourneys Thieves goals is to +1 fights and back cap, just like WvW.

LOL, thief is a crappy class at 1v1 in “e-sports” because it takes too long to kill most other classes 1v1, and you have to do it whilst fighting over a capture point and that combined with the score ticking away punishes a class like thief for resetting like thief can in WvW to eventually win a 1v1, which is exactly why it is a +1 class not a 1v1 class.

Martym.6971:

Also for your “claims” about “skill”, go back to WoW if you want macros, and add-ons to do all your work for you. Because GW2 has none of this nonsense and they are limited to 1 keystroke 1 action besides WoW being able to macro the whole class and auto targeting via keybinds with CC and cross DPS built into the same macro.

I hate to break it to you, but in the grand scheme of what is skilled in video games MMORPGs are regarded as a joke, go see CS, SC2, etc for games that have high skill caps.

The combat in GW2 is a joke, it is full of passives, the game aims for you (tab targeted), there is barely any resource management, it is not particularly fast paced (even by the low standards of MMORPGs), there is very little animation or skill cancelling needed, the cooldowns are generally shortish so easy to manage and so on.

The only thing in this game that moves the skill cap out of the gutter is teams playing PvP and having to split their concentration between fighting, making decisions on things like rotations, keeping up map awareness, etc, the actual combat alone is well…

P.S – Absolutely nothing in this game is balanced around 1v1, because there is no specific 1v1 content.

zinkz.7045:

Martym.6971:

So you are trying to push an argument forward they balanced for “e-sports”

Their is no argument that is simply fact, the combat/skills in this game were designed around PvP and what Teldo & Co wanted, go ask a player in Alpha (or go find Sacrx’s video on it), or go find the old streams that Jon Peters, etc (if they still exist?) did earlier in the game explaining the balance changes they made, virtually everything was in relation to PvP conquest.

Martym.6971:

maybe you play o and wish to also make an argument for how they never balanced for 1v1 or WvW, yet you want Thief balanced around one or the other?

I don’t “want” anything, WvW is a dying game mode, and 5 years in is little late to start balancing thief or anything else, I’m just pointing out that the idea that thief or any other class is designed or balanced with WvW in mind in any meaningful sense is nonsense.

Martym.6971:

I hate to break the news to you, but in MMOs, stealth classes are designed to be balanced around 1v1 combat and to be the superior 1v1 class, only achievable at higher skill caps. This is how they balanced Thief for “e-sports”. The e-sports as seen in tourneys Thieves goals is to +1 fights and back cap, just like WvW.

LOL, thief is a crappy class at 1v1 in “e-sports” because it takes too long to kill most other classes 1v1, you have to fight over a capture point and that combined with the score ticking away punishes a class like thief for resetting like thief can in WvW to eventually win a 1v1, which is exactly why it is a +1 class not a 1v1 class.

Martym.6971:

Also for your “claims” about “skill”, go back to WoW if you want macros, and add-ons to do all your work for you. Because GW2 has none of this nonsense and they are limited to 1 keystroke 1 action besides WoW being able to macro the whole class and auto targeting via keybinds with CC and cross DPS built into the same macro.

I hate to break it to you, but in the grand scheme of what is skilled in video games MMORPGs are regarded as a joke, go see CS, SC2, etc for games that have high skill caps.

The combat in GW2 is a joke, it is full of passives, the game aims for you (tab targeted), there is barely any resource management, it is not particularly fast paced (even by the low standards of MMORPGs), there is very little animation or skill cancelling needed, the cooldowns are generally shortish so easy to manage and so on.

The only thing in this game that moves the skill cap out of the gutter is teams playing PvP and have to split their concentration whilst fighting and making decisions on things like rotations, keeping up map awareness, etc, the actual combat is well…

Thieves are fine in e-sports. Fighting on nodes is of no consequence to Thieves with access to stealth. You can still milk CDs on nodes. The only difference is when you get the kill, it’s a game changer. And when you do, if you see the other team coming to the node to support the dead teammate, you can back-cap and hop 1/2 way across the map in no time.

Hate to break it to me? Tell me something I do not know. This game is easier than those other games. But I am speaking in the sense of this game. There are still skill cap levels easily seen by how difficult certain classes are vs others.

Nothing is balanced around 1v1? Thieves are. All stealth classes are balanced around being the superior 1v1 class. This is the only class balanced for 1v1 superiority. Explain to me why they can counter any class in 1v1 then?

But according to you in e-sports, Thieves suck? Obviously your argument is counter productive. Because if the premier stealth class sucks in e-sports according to you, and excels in 1v1, they must have balanced Thieves around their strengths in 1v1, and not their weaknesses in e-sports.

If they balanced Thieves around e-sports, they would have to lose what makes them great in 1v1 and back capping, and gain somewhere else.

Martym.6971:

Thieves are fine in e-sports. Fighting on nodes is of no consequence to Thieves with access to stealth. You can still milk CDs on nodes. The only difference is when you get the kill, it’s a game changer. And when you do, if you see the other team coming to the node to support the dead teammate, you can back-cap and hop 1/2 way across the map in no time.

Erm, I know thieves are fine in “e-sports”, I never said they were not, they are however not a good 1v1 class in it as you claimed, so I have no idea what you are babbling on about.

And as for fighting on points and access to stealth, what are you on about, that is one of the reasons thief in PvP isn’t good for 1v1 in stealth builds.

Martym.6971:

There are still skill cap levels easily seen by how difficult certain classes are vs others.

No class in this game is difficult to play, and they all got even more faceroll with HoT, and even by the low standards of this game, the actual builds that have some meaningful risk vs reward to them, virtually no one plays (zerker static discharge engi, zerk s/d ele, etc), because the game is packed full of ezmode cheese builds on every class,

Martym.6971:

Nothing is balanced around 1v1? Thieves are. All stealth classes are balanced around being the superior 1v1 class. This is the only class balanced for 1v1 superiority. Explain to me why they can counter any class in 1v1 then?

There is no 1v1 balancing, because there is no 1v1 game mode, they balanced for 5v5 conquest (of which there is very little 1v1 even in that), then when PvE raids came out they balanced for 10 man raids.

The state of any 1v1 is simply the fallout of them balancing for conquest/raids, and again for the most part thief has not been a 1v1 class in PvP, because it simply isn’t that good at them in that context of fighting over points, it is only good in WvW but again like pretty much every other class in WvW the “balance” is merely what ever mess is left after they take descions for PvP and since HoT, PvE raids, your notion that they consider roaming 1v1’s in WvW when it comes to balance is laughable.

Martym.6971:

If they balanced Thieves around e-sports, they would have to lose what makes them great in 1v1 and back capping, and gain somewhere else.

For the most part over this game thieves backcap and +1 in “e-sports”, they don’t 1v1, and frankly 1v1 is not a common thing in PvP anyway for any class, you are meant to rotate…

zinkz.7045:

Martym.6971:

Thieves are fine in e-sports. Fighting on nodes is of no consequence to Thieves with access to stealth. You can still milk CDs on nodes. The only difference is when you get the kill, it’s a game changer. And when you do, if you see the other team coming to the node to support the dead teammate, you can back-cap and hop 1/2 way across the map in no time.

Erm, I know thieves are fine in “e-sports” they are however not a good 1v1 class in it as you claimed, so I have no idea what you are babbling on about.

And as for fighting on points and access to stealth, what are you on about, that is one of the reasons thief in PvP isn’t good for 1v1 in stealth builds.

Martym.6971:

There are still skill cap levels easily seen by how difficult certain classes are vs others.

No class in this game is difficult to play, and they all got even more faceroll with HoT.

Martym.6971:

Nothing is balanced around 1v1? Thieves are. All stealth classes are balanced around being the superior 1v1 class. This is the only class balanced for 1v1 superiority. Explain to me why they can counter any class in 1v1 then?

There is no 1v1 balancing, because there is no 1v1 game mode, they balanced for 5v5 conquest (of which there is very little 1v1 even in that), then when PvE raids came out they balanced for 10 man raids.

The state of any 1v1 is simply the fallout of them balancing for conquest/raids, and again for the most part thief has not been a 1v1 class in PvP, because it simply isn’t that good at them in that context of fighting over points, it is only good in WvW but again like pretty much every other class in WvW the “balance” is merely what ever mess is left after they take descions for PvP and since HoT, PvE raids, your notion that they consider roaming in WvW when it comes to balance is laughable.

Martym.6971:

If they balanced Thieves around e-sports, they would have to lose what makes them great in 1v1 and back capping, and gain somewhere else.

For the most part over this game thieves backcap and +1 in “e-sports”, they don’t 1v1, and frankly 1v1 is not a common thing in PvP anyway for any class, you are meant to rotate…

Show me where I said Thieves 1v1 in e-sports. I don’t see it, yet here you are claiming I did. I said in PvP and WvW Thieves goals are to back cap and +1. Man you need to learn to read. Everything I have stated about Thieves are 1v1 related as far as balance goes, not the state of Conquest.

No class is difficult to play? Is that a blanket statement stating that all classes are as easy and have the exact skill cap as others? Because this is factually false.

I stated only for Thief and the nature of the class is why this is the only class designed for 1v1s. I find it funny how you consider it “laughable” yet your very argument does nothing but prove me correct.

Because if Thief was only designed to run away from everything and teleport around as a balancing tool for conquest, then what a crap class it would be, and no one would play it. This is simply not true.

And in many situations you are forced into 1v1 with Thief. If you go 2v2 on a node, and your teammate dies as well as theirs. If you honestly think everytime a Thief sees another class in Conquest on a node, and they simply run away from them every single time, I’d like to know what game you play.

Thieves do not just hand over nodes just because it’s a 1v1. The sheer ridiculousness of this claim is absurd. Thieves go for a kill always, and if they fight a losing battle, they retreat if they know they cannot win the 1v1. They do not blindly just leave the node on auto pilot just because “oh noes 1v1 must run”.

Martym.6971:

You have much subjective argument without factual evidence to support your claims. I have made no claims other than the obvious class mechanics which is common knowledge and is widely regarded as fact. The only one with “claims” here is you.

I’ve raised issue with claims that you made, and I’ve included quotes those claims as evidence that you made them. You’ve also acknowledged that you made them in subsequent posts.

It’s your claims that a warrior, dh, and other classes are auto pilot (as in, DeceiverX level of play) at level 80, and that thief is only equivalent to that after somewhere between some undefined number of hours and thousands of hours of time playing thief, that are being discussed.

Again, the thing about forums is there’s a record of what people have said and haven’t said. Your most recent post seems bizarrely oblivious to that.

Is this what its like watching Vincent and I in that other thread?

Choppy.4183:

Martym.6971:

You have much subjective argument without factual evidence to support your claims. I have made no claims other than the obvious class mechanics which is common knowledge and is widely regarded as fact. The only one with “claims” here is you.

I’ve raised issue with claims that you made, and I’ve included quotes those claims as evidence that you made them. You’ve also acknowledged that you made them in subsequent posts.

It’s your claims that a warrior, dh, and other classes are auto pilot (as in, DeceiverX level of play) at level 80, and that thief is only equivalent to that after somewhere between some undefined number of hours and thousands of hours of time playing thief, that are being discussed.

Again, the thing about forums is there’s a record of what people have said and haven’t said. Your most recent post seems bizarrely oblivious to that.

No, I didn’t, I said class vs class skill cap that I stated was slightly overexaggerated but they were fair comparisons. I am sorry you cannot understand context. Your most recent posts contradict themselves over and over again, make false claims about what others have stated, and over exaggerate the context of discussions. Do you have an anti social disorder? Your social skills lack, and you have yet to provide any evidence to any claim you have made, but move the goal post when called out on your failures to invent false accusations.

Anything I have stated I have rightly admitted and explained context. You have only lied to further your argument. This can easily be read by any child on the bottom half of page 1. See, like you stated, you can always read post history. It’s a wonderful thing. And when called out on your lies, you move the goal post and try to invent new ones, or repeat the same lies in different context, like you are trying to pull a fast one over someone. Well that may work on your mother, but it doesn’t me.

You have already lost all credibility long ago, so I am not speaking to you further.

Martym.6971:

…I stated only for Thief and the nature of the class is why this is the only class designed for 1v1s…
You have already lost all credibility long ago, so I am not speaking to you further.

To be honest, you had no credibility from the start, by saying thief was designed to 1v1 any class…

The ability to disengage is not unique to thief… Nearly all classes can disengage/reengage or reset the fight if they wanted too.

Mesmer’s have portal, stealth and blinks
Ranger’s have stealth, long range transport, and heal resets.
Elementalist’s have heal resets and blinks.
Warrior’s have pretty sick mobility and regeneration.
Engi’s can reset forever using their pressure, heals, and blocks and some kiting.
DH’s can not really disengage, but they can maintain a target, and maintain point defense, making disengagement not all too necessary.
Revenent’s can’t disengage all too well either, similar to DH… but they can keep a fight engaged with reveals and teleport. (Rev’s need a buff btw)
Necromancer’s can’t disengage at all…Maybe with flesh wurm, but after that they are pretty much done for.

Martym.6971:

And in many situations you are forced into 1v1 with Thief.

You must play in bronze league dude… Because thieves who engage 1v1’s don’t understand their role as thief (unless they run staff-acro). If you find yourself losing to a DP thief in a 1v1, you need to reevaluate your own skill, and how to fight other thieves (hint., dodge steal.)

Martym.6971:

Thieves do not just hand over nodes just because it’s a 1v1. The sheer ridiculousness of this claim is absurd. Thieves go for a kill always, and if they fight a losing battle, they retreat if they know they cannot win the 1v1.

This is something only bad thieves do in conquest.

A thief will hand over a node clearly if they can not take the 1v1, which most can’t. The only 1v1 thieves can take in conquest without wasting time, would be a necromancer, or another thief. If a thief is 1v1ing anyway, they are already losing, because they don’t even need to 1v1 to make the better play, which would be to keep the enemy on their node (by decaping), forcing them to stay there, and forcing a 4v5 on the rest of the map.

Martym.6971:

Fighting on nodes is of no consequence to Thieves with access to stealth.

You literally just lost all credibility here with this sentence.

I don’t even need to re-defend my stance; your blatant lack of understanding of the profession speaks volumes.

DeceiverX.8361:

Martym.6971:

Fighting on nodes is of no consequence to Thieves with access to stealth.

You literally just lost all credibility here with this sentence.

I don’t even need to re-defend my stance; your blatant lack of understanding of the profession speaks volumes.

^
He’s right you know.

@Martym.6971

Lol, k. Whatever you need to tell yourself is fine by me. The rest of us know otherwise.

theodor.3480:

I’ve been lurking on the forums for some time, looking for info and suck and the great majority of the threads i see are all salty about thief being op and whatnot. Now i ask you why all the salt? Are you annoyed that thieves got stealth and and extra dodges? No CD on weapon skills? Well you don’t have to. If you don’t build for stealth, you won’t get it, or get it in low numbers with small benefits (looking a CnD and Backstab ICD here). You say thieves spam weapon skills? Dodge, cc, fear them or make them waste that precious ini that is in limited number so that he can aa only.
But thieves have so much dodge, why can’t i hit? Condi is your friend here… Thieves melt with condi, with 13k hp in glass gear they will melt.

So at the end of the rant i want to ask you why so salty against thief when there are many counters? This is coming from a thief, and I love the class over any others.

Cheers and thanks for reading.

Edit – typos i think

The answer to your question is very easy.
The thing about Thief is that in order to beat another player (not talking about new/unexperienced players), you must not make a single (literally) mistake. Other professions, while fighting against Thief, can make several mistakes and get away with it. If a Thief makes a single mistake while facing same “skill level player” he will be screwed almost immediately.
Thus people complaining about Thief being OP don’t realize that they were not killed in fight by OP profession but by a player himself.
Thief winning fight is direct result of players (humans) precision, timing and mastery and not a result of passive procs or “overpowered” abilities/utilities.

Alatar.7364:

The answer to your question is very easy.
The thing about Thief is that in order to beat another player (not talking about new/unexperienced players), you must not make a single (literally) mistake. Other professions, while fighting against Thief, can make several mistakes and get away with it. If a Thief makes a single mistake while facing same “skill level player” he will be screwed almost immediately.
Thus people complaining about Thief being OP don’t realize that they were not killed in fight by OP profession but by a player himself.
Thief winning fight is direct result of players (humans) precision, timing and mastery and not a result of passive procs or “overpowered” abilities/utilities.

That hasn’t been true for a long time. Well over a year now, at least.

Choppy.4183:

Alatar.7364:

The answer to your question is very easy.
The thing about Thief is that in order to beat another player (not talking about new/unexperienced players), you must not make a single (literally) mistake. Other professions, while fighting against Thief, can make several mistakes and get away with it. If a Thief makes a single mistake while facing same “skill level player” he will be screwed almost immediately.
Thus people complaining about Thief being OP don’t realize that they were not killed in fight by OP profession but by a player himself.
Thief winning fight is direct result of players (humans) precision, timing and mastery and not a result of passive procs or “overpowered” abilities/utilities.

That hasn’t been true for a long time. Well over a year now, at least.

Can we be more specific here? I’d like to know your opinion.

Alatar.7364:

Can we be more specific here? I’d like to know your opinion.

Sure, as mentioned by myself and others in this thread, thief is much more forgiving of mistakes than it used to be, especially since HoT was released and people learned how to play the new spec.

It used to be true that a single mistake (or maybe two) would mean death for a glass thief if the enemy knew to capitalize on it, but not so much now. The unparalleled mobility (not just the best, which would be fine, but another league), combined with the number of evades available (often attached to damaging skills), traits like Unhindered Combatant, and the low cd on Bandit’s Defense, gives even fairly inexperienced players room to be effective and plenty of chances if they make a mistake.

Whether that means nerfs are in order is debatable. My personal preference would be to see some of that toned down to increase the risk in small scale, while buffing to give the profession more large scale value. Regardless, thieves really don’t have that “live fast, die young” thing going anymore.

Choppy.4183:

Alatar.7364:

Can we be more specific here? I’d like to know your opinion.

Sure, as mentioned by myself and others in this thread, thief is much more forgiving of mistakes than it used to be, especially since HoT was released and people learned how to play the new spec.

It used to be true that a single mistake (or maybe two) would mean death for a glass thief if the enemy knew to capitalize on it, but not so much now. The unparalleled mobility (not just the best, which would be fine, but another league), combined with the number of evades available (often attached to damaging skills), traits like Unhindered Combatant, and the low cd on Bandit’s Defense, gives even fairly inexperienced players room to be effective and plenty of chances if they make a mistake.

Whether that means nerfs are in order is debatable. My personal preference would be to see some of that toned down to increase the risk in small scale, while buffing to give the profession more large scale value. Regardless, thieves really don’t have that “live fast, die young” thing going anymore.

While true the thief has more mitigation methods then before and can be more forgiving of mistakes it also true that power creep has happened on the other side to the persons the thief is fighting against. Fights across the board have been extended to a degree so the “make a mistake thing” is relative. Where in the past it might have been " a thief makes one mistake and dies" it becomes “a thief makes two mistakes and dies” whereas with other classes it might have been “a XXXX can make 4 mistakes and dies , becoming an XXX can make 6 mistakes and dies’.” (quotations for purposes of example)

In relative terms the thief is still fragile in this regard. It certainly has a greater ability to survive a mistake but then so does everyone else. A lot of that “salt” in my opinion is because those fighting a thief can no longer as easily capitaize on that single mistake.

babazhook.6805:

While true the thief has more mitigation methods then before and can be more forgiving of mistakes it also true that power creep has happened on the other side to the persons the thief is fighting against. Fights across the board have been extended to a degree so the “make a mistake thing” is relative. Where in the past it might have been " a thief makes one mistake and dies" it becomes “a thief makes two mistakes and dies” whereas with other classes it might have been “a XXXX can make 4 mistakes and dies , becoming an XXX can make 6 mistakes and dies’.” (quotations for purposes of example)

In relative terms the thief is still fragile in this regard. It certainly has a greater ability to survive a mistake but then so does everyone else. A lot of that “salt” in my opinion is because those fighting a thief can no longer as easily capitaize on that single mistake.

Oh, for sure there’s power creep all over the place, and lots of broken stuff too. But I don’t agree that any defense upgrade thieves have received are at a net zero impact, at least from the perspective of how unforgiving the class is to mistakes. Certainly, not in the 1v1 context that Alatar laid out anyway.

If they would push all the Pvp changes to WvW a lot of the salt would be next to non existent, since everyone took Sustain and some damage nerfs in those changes even the things that really make Thief unforgiving took hits, their Condi cleanses took a hit, their evade Spam took a hit, and some of their damage, too bad its only in one gamemode currently, hopefully Anet pushes all the recent pvp changes from the last two patches to WvW and boom a lot of salt will evaporate

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

While true the thief has more mitigation methods then before and can be more forgiving of mistakes it also true that power creep has happened on the other side to the persons the thief is fighting against. Fights across the board have been extended to a degree so the “make a mistake thing” is relative. Where in the past it might have been " a thief makes one mistake and dies" it becomes “a thief makes two mistakes and dies” whereas with other classes it might have been “a XXXX can make 4 mistakes and dies , becoming an XXX can make 6 mistakes and dies’.” (quotations for purposes of example)

In relative terms the thief is still fragile in this regard. It certainly has a greater ability to survive a mistake but then so does everyone else. A lot of that “salt” in my opinion is because those fighting a thief can no longer as easily capitaize on that single mistake.

Oh, for sure there’s power creep all over the place, and lots of broken stuff too. But I don’t agree that any defense upgrade thieves have received are at a net zero impact, at least from the perspective of how unforgiving the class is to mistakes. Certainly, not in the 1v1 context that Alatar laid out anyway.

Agreed but at the same time I would not consider these added mitigation abilities as a bad thing. Too many claim it means less skill. I do not entirely agree with that. Risk is being confused with skill. It sort of like saying betting on a 100 to 1 longshot to win the kentucky derby demonstrates more skill than the person who bet on the 5-4 favorite when that 100 longshot wins.

They are certainly overtuned specs across the board but it hardly as bad as those dwelling on pre-hot suggest.

DeceiverX.8361:

Martym.6971:

Fighting on nodes is of no consequence to Thieves with access to stealth.

You literally just lost all credibility here with this sentence.

I don’t even need to re-defend my stance; your blatant lack of understanding of the profession speaks volumes.

I am sorry you cannot understand context of discussion like your friend here. Sure there’s disadvantages to Thief, but Thief has ways to work around them. You’re just as bad as your butt buddy here. Thief can milk stealth on nodes to be of less consequence to their class as simply dying like other classes must do. Maybe you guys are bronze league.

Choppy.4183:

@Martym.6971

Lol, k. Whatever you need to tell yourself is fine by me. The rest of us know otherwise.

The rest of all 3 of you. Lol k? You’re all intellectual children with an IQ of 10 who cannot understand conversations, overexaggerate statements made in conversartions to mean something they never meant, then run off without defending the page of garbage and lies you spew. You’ve still lost all credibility, and you have yet to defend a word you have stated, explain your bull hockey on page 1, or establish a means of evidence for your claims. Oh but you will try to figure a way to lie and manipulate your way out of this one as well amirite?

JusticeRetroHunter.7684:

Martym.6971:

…I stated only for Thief and the nature of the class is why this is the only class designed for 1v1s…
You have already lost all credibility long ago, so I am not speaking to you further.

To be honest, you had no credibility from the start, by saying thief was designed to 1v1 any class…

@ your bottom paragraph, I literally stated this in my response. Wasting time? This is subjective if the opponent also wasted the same time to defend the node not capped. Sure you would be a moron to go around 1v1ing capped nodes, but giving up uncapped nodes? That just speaks volumes for your skill level and expertise as a Thief.

Other classes can disengage, that’s fair. But the argument is about Thief, and not all classes run away without even engaging. You’re trying to establish equality in your argument on disengaging, then also establish equality in class balance based on this fallacy, when the classes are nothing alike, and are balanced differently.

You all have stated the same thing over and over again, Thief was not designed around 1v1, then given no proof otherwise. If it is how Choppy stated, and Thieves were designed around Conquest, and everything else is a fallout of it, then explain to me why he considers them sub par in Conquest. The sole thing being nodes?

Well if Thieves were designed around the ability to acquire nodes with mobility, then why are their skillset for 1v1s? Why are they according to Choppy, balanced for Conquest and suck in Conquest? You have yet to explain this. As HitIer says in Mein Kampf, “Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth”, which is exactly what you are doing making claims without proof, when Thief being the best 1v1 class is my proof.

This company may have intended balance for all classes in Conquest in the beginning, but all classes are not designed to be balanced around Conquest after they have tinkered with them. So if Thieves are sub par in Conquest, then why are people screaming for nerfs if Thief is sub par at the only method that this company balanced around? There’s so many flaws and circular logic on all of your statements it baffles me that you actually believe what you type.

babazhook.6805:

Agreed but at the same time I would not consider these added mitigation abilities as a bad thing. Too many claim it means less skill. I do not entirely agree with that. Risk is being confused with skill. It sort of like saying betting on a 100 to 1 longshot to win the kentucky derby demonstrates more skill than the person who bet on the 5-4 favorite when that 100 longshot wins.

They are certainly overtuned specs across the board but it hardly as bad as those dwelling on pre-hot suggest.

Oh, I totally agree that more defense isn’t a bad thing for the class, or for the game, frankly. But I tend to prefer risk balanced with reward, and it seems to me that a few small changes could help bring that in line again for thief in small scale fights. In large scale, I have no easy answers, but thief could stand for a buff there.

I generally agree with Sly’s position on this, that some of the pvp nerfs should be pushed to wvw (which is where I spend most of my time). Maybe some additional increases to the initiative costs of some of the movement skills too.

The mechanics of thieves seem pretty good to me right now, and in many ways better than they ever have been. I’d hate to see those mechanics get nailed because, well, it feels bad, man.

Martym.6971:

You all have stated the same thing over and over again, Thief was not designed around 1v1, then given no proof otherwise. If it is how Choppy stated, and Thieves were designed around Conquest, and everything else is a fallout of it, then explain to me why he considers them sub par in Conquest. The sole thing being nodes?

Well if Thieves were designed around the ability to acquire nodes with mobility, then why are their skillset for 1v1s? You have yet to explain this. As HitIer says in Mein Kampf, “Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth”, which is exactly what you are doing making claims without proof, when Thief being the best 1v1 class is my proof.

Lol, I didn’t say anything about Conquest or how thief was designed. You see, part of your problem is you seem unable to keep track of who says what, including yourself. It’s killing your credibility.

Also, lol at fulfilling Godwin’s Law there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

Agreed but at the same time I would not consider these added mitigation abilities as a bad thing. Too many claim it means less skill. I do not entirely agree with that. Risk is being confused with skill. It sort of like saying betting on a 100 to 1 longshot to win the kentucky derby demonstrates more skill than the person who bet on the 5-4 favorite when that 100 longshot wins.

They are certainly overtuned specs across the board but it hardly as bad as those dwelling on pre-hot suggest.

Oh, I totally agree that more defense isn’t a bad thing for the class, and for the game, frankly. But I tend to prefer risk balanced with reward, and it seems to me that a few small changes could help bring that in line again for thief in small scale fights. In large scale, I have no easy answers, but thief could stand for a buff there.

I generally agree with Sly’s position on this, that some of the pvp nerfs should be pushed to wvw (which is where I spend most of my time). Maybe some additional increases to the initiative costs of some of the movement skills too.

The mechanics of thieves seem pretty good to me right now, and in many ways better than they ever have been. I’d hate to see those mechanics get nailed because, well, it feels bad, man.

All the Thieves movement skills on Weapons take over 1/3-1/2 of a Thief’s total initiative those ones don’t need an increase Initiative increases aren’t what are needed especially if they don’t make Preparedness baseline since everything is balanced on a 15 initiative pool not the 12 initiative pool, look at Infiltrator Arrow it costs 6, does no damage, doesn’t damage mitigate and is a limited range shadowstep( with plenty of bugs) whatsoever ever yet costs 1/2 base Thief initiative Pool and over 1/3 of the trained pool.

They just need to reign in alll the power creep lower all the numbers forms stats and the amoun of Boons and conditions generated per skill, this last portion is a way to mitigate the amount of lag that plagues this game especially in WvW

Choppy explain to me how me making a statement which people have support in here is undermining any credibility, when no one has given an answer to the statement? Who cares who said it. No one will give an answer. You have no credibility if you cannot provide answers.

All you have done since the beginning Choppy is move the goal post around over and over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

“Moving the goalposts, similar to “shifting sands” and also known as raising the bar, is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt.³ The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the end result is changed, too"

Sly.9518:

All the Thieves movement skills on Weapons take over 1/3-1/2 of a Thief’s total initiative those ones don’t need an increase Initiative increases aren’t what are needed especially if they don’t make Preparedness baseline since everything is balanced on a 15 initiative pool not the 12 initiative pool, look at Infiltrator Arrow it costs 6, does no damage, doesn’t damage mitigate and is a limited range shadowstep( with plenty of bugs) whatsoever ever yet costs 1/2 base Thief initiative Pool and over 1/3 of the trained pool.

They just need to reign in alll the power creep lower all the numbers forms stats and the amoun of Boons and conditions generated per skill, this last portion is a way to mitigate the amount of lag that plagues this game especially in WvW

It was more of an offhand suggestion to deal what appears to be an overtuned ability to disengage from a fight and to try again.

I don’t know if it’s possible or even advisable, but I’d like to see thieves have no more escape/travel mobility warriors had a couple of years ago (about +33% what warriors have now), coupled with reduced escape if the thief truly engages in a fight.

Meaning, I like the idea of thieves being able to jump in and get out when things are either really hot (like a group fight, lots of aoe, etc) or if the approach into the fight fails, but still having to commit to a fight to get the win at the expense of being able to escape if they’re outplayed.

In other words, still the highest mobility in the game (just not in another league), the same great control over engagement that they have now, but increased risk if committing to a fight. I honestly don’t know how to do that, but something feels off to me on that front these days.

That said, the issue may be solved just by pushing though the pvp nerfs, as you suggested.

I could understand that Choppy. But Thieves are supposed to be dirty scoundrels. And you cannot balance a class around getting away without a kill.

Martym.6971:

I could understand that Choppy. But Thieves are supposed to be dirty scoundrels. And you cannot balance a class around getting away without a kill.

Yeah, but it’s also a game. To the OP’s question, the appearance of impunity isn’t good for the game, regardless of the underlying concept of a given profession.

In the old days, when people really griped about warrior mobility letting them escape from fights they were losing, the warrior had to save stances (which were on 60s cds) in order to escape cleanly from a fight. If the warrior used those stances to be more effective during the fight, then it came at the cost of being able to escape.

I’m thinking something along those lines.

Choppy.4183:

Sly.9518:

All the Thieves movement skills on Weapons take over 1/3-1/2 of a Thief’s total initiative those ones don’t need an increase Initiative increases aren’t what are needed especially if they don’t make Preparedness baseline since everything is balanced on a 15 initiative pool not the 12 initiative pool, look at Infiltrator Arrow it costs 6, does no damage, doesn’t damage mitigate and is a limited range shadowstep( with plenty of bugs) whatsoever ever yet costs 1/2 base Thief initiative Pool and over 1/3 of the trained pool.

They just need to reign in alll the power creep lower all the numbers forms stats and the amoun of Boons and conditions generated per skill, this last portion is a way to mitigate the amount of lag that plagues this game especially in WvW

It was more of an offhand suggestion to deal what appears to be an overtuned ability to disengage from a fight and to try again.

I don’t know if it’s possible or even advisable, but I’d like to see thieves have no more escape/travel mobility warriors had a couple of years ago (about +33% what warriors have now), coupled with reduced escape if the thief truly engages in a fight.

Meaning, I like the idea of thieves being able to jump in and get out when things are either really hot (like a group fight, lots of aoe, etc) or if the approach into the fight fails, but still having to commit to a fight to get the win at the expense of being able to escape if they’re outplayed.

In other words, still the highest mobility in the game (just not in another league), the same great control over engagement that they have now, but increased risk if committing to a fight. I honestly don’t know how to do that, but something feels off to me on that front these days.

That said, the issue may be solved just by pushing though the pvp nerfs, as you suggested.

The thing is Thieves aren’t in a whole other league on mobility, if IA gets nerfed again or as some mesmers want remove IA all together would make Thief have worse mobility than most other classes, IA has been nerfed before when it was a whole other league at being 1200 range. Players just don’t like the fact that a Thief can leave easier at the sacrifice of Passive Defenses and being able to stick to fights longer, it can be frustrating but so is landing a perfect burst to just have the player go passively invuln and healt o full right after it happens, there is a lot of frustrating things in game and hopefully Anet realizes this and tones them down using the PvP changes game wide and re-evaluate

Choppy.4183:

Alatar.7364:

Can we be more specific here? I’d like to know your opinion.

Sure, as mentioned by myself and others in this thread, thief is much more forgiving of mistakes than it used to be, especially since HoT was released and people learned how to play the new spec.

It used to be true that a single mistake (or maybe two) would mean death for a glass thief if the enemy knew to capitalize on it, but not so much now. The unparalleled mobility (not just the best, which would be fine, but another league), combined with the number of evades available (often attached to damaging skills), traits like Unhindered Combatant, and the low cd on Bandit’s Defense, gives even fairly inexperienced players room to be effective and plenty of chances if they make a mistake.

Whether that means nerfs are in order is debatable. My personal preference would be to see some of that toned down to increase the risk in small scale, while buffing to give the profession more large scale value. Regardless, thieves really don’t have that “live fast, die young” thing going anymore.

While I can agree with most of what you said, I don’t agree with part about Evades.
People complained about that a lot, and Daredevils evades got nerfed down not only several times, but also quite ‘brutaly’ and effectively. Number of dodges a Daredevil can use now is nowhere near “OP” state. After all it is the very Idea of its Elite Spec. It got balanced quite a lot and complaining about it now would be almost the same as criticizing that a Warrior can use ‘Berserker mode’.

About the Badnit’s Defense. While that is no argument at all, I still have to say that I very rarely see Thieves use it, although I myself use it when I play Staff. On the other hand, it is true that it’s Cooldown is… ‘super low’ and I am quite surprised that it was not increased/nerfed, yet. And even though I use it aswell, the cooldown should be increased indeed.

Also, how @babazhook stated:
Where in the past it might have been " a thief makes one mistake and dies" it becomes “a thief makes two mistakes and dies” whereas with other classes it might have been “a XXXX can make 4 mistakes and dies , becoming an XXX can make 6 mistakes and dies’.”

^ I believe that this is still true.

babazhook.6805:

Choppy.4183:

Alatar.7364:

Can we be more specific here? I’d like to know your opinion.

Sure, as mentioned by myself and others in this thread, thief is much more forgiving of mistakes than it used to be, especially since HoT was released and people learned how to play the new spec.

It used to be true that a single mistake (or maybe two) would mean death for a glass thief if the enemy knew to capitalize on it, but not so much now. The unparalleled mobility (not just the best, which would be fine, but another league), combined with the number of evades available (often attached to damaging skills), traits like Unhindered Combatant, and the low cd on Bandit’s Defense, gives even fairly inexperienced players room to be effective and plenty of chances if they make a mistake.

Whether that means nerfs are in order is debatable. My personal preference would be to see some of that toned down to increase the risk in small scale, while buffing to give the profession more large scale value. Regardless, thieves really don’t have that “live fast, die young” thing going anymore.

While true the thief has more mitigation methods then before and can be more forgiving of mistakes it also true that power creep has happened on the other side to the persons the thief is fighting against. Fights across the board have been extended to a degree so the “make a mistake thing” is relative. Where in the past it might have been " a thief makes one mistake and dies" it becomes “a thief makes two mistakes and dies” whereas with other classes it might have been “a XXXX can make 4 mistakes and dies , becoming an XXX can make 6 mistakes and dies’.” (quotations for purposes of example)

In relative terms the thief is still fragile in this regard. It certainly has a greater ability to survive a mistake but then so does everyone else. A lot of that “salt” in my opinion is because those fighting a thief can no longer as easily capitalize on that single mistake.

You just became my hero. People still want thief/DD to be a quick kill…1 quick burst and they are done….with HoT, they now stand a chance (Extra dodge and some that use Bandits Defense). This doesn’t make them OP, just finally able to make 1 small – mid mistake without getting blown up and this is ticking people off that they cannot kill them as easily. (Well…some classes can still blow them up but now it takes a bit of skill).

Equal skill, thieves are still the same but as you mentioned (very awesomely may I add) people can’t capitalize on it as easily as they could due to an extra dodge or BD and I find seem people don’t want to “re-train” themselves on how to do this.

Alatar.7364:

\
While I can agree with most of what you said, I don’t agree with part about Evades.
People complained about that a lot, and Daredevils evades got nerfed down not only several times, but also quite ‘brutaly’ and effectively. Number of dodges a Daredevil can use now is nowhere near “OP” state. After all it is the very Idea of its Elite Spec. It got balanced quite a lot and complaining about it now would be almost the same as criticizing that a Warrior can use ‘Berserker mode’.

About the Badnit’s Defense. While that is no argument at all, I still have to say that I very rarely see Thieves use it, although I myself use it when I play Staff. On the other hand, it is true that it’s Cooldown is… ‘super low’ and I am quite surprised that it was not increased/nerfed, yet. And even though I use it aswell, the cooldown should be increased indeed.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m fine with Daredevils having the extra dodge, and with them having better endurance regen than every profession too. I was more commenting on the total package of those things, plus the evades on skills, plus traits and skills, etc. as a total package that makes thief a far cry from the “one mistake and you’re dead” sort of class that it used to be.

As for Bandit’s, I find about half of the thieves I come across run it. You don’t usually see it on the ganky d/p builds, but you’ll often find it on builds run by less competent players who also tend to use lots of evade frame skills (before, vault spammers; now, lots more dd condi builds). You find it on the occasional d/p too, but not on the best ones. Point being, it helps less skilled thieves cover for their lower skill while still being effective.

But, yeah, to be clear, I’m not calling for further nerfs to endurance or anything, though I would like to see those pvp changes pushed through to wvw.

Choppy.4183:

But, yeah, to be clear, I’m not calling for further nerfs to endurance or anything, though I would like to see those pvp changes pushed through to wvw.

I imagine that it must be …interesting, in WvW, especially with the Signet of Agility still shining there without the nerf it got in PvP.
Condi D/D is a chapter of its own, it is just… not worthy to be talked about. I run, play, enjoy and kill with about every weapon set and comp. there is, but not Condi D/D.

Not ment as an insult to anyone using Condi D/D, it is but a matter of a personal preference

Martym.6971:

DeceiverX.8361:

Martym.6971:

Fighting on nodes is of no consequence to Thieves with access to stealth.

You literally just lost all credibility here with this sentence.

I don’t even need to re-defend my stance; your blatant lack of understanding of the profession speaks volumes.

I am sorry you cannot understand context of discussion like your friend here. Sure there’s disadvantages to Thief, but Thief has ways to work around them. You’re just as bad as your butt buddy here. Thief can milk stealth on nodes to be of less consequence to their class as simply dying like other classes must do. Maybe you guys are bronze league.

Choppy.4183:

@Martym.6971

Lol, k. Whatever you need to tell yourself is fine by me. The rest of us know otherwise.

The rest of all 3 of you. Lol k? You’re all intellectual children with an IQ of 10 who cannot understand conversations, overexaggerate statements made in conversartions to mean something they never meant, then run off without defending the page of garbage and lies you spew. You’ve still lost all credibility, and you have yet to defend a word you have stated, explain your bull hockey on page 1, or establish a means of evidence for your claims. Oh but you will try to figure a way to lie and manipulate your way out of this one as well amirite?

JusticeRetroHunter.7684:

Martym.6971:

…I stated only for Thief and the nature of the class is why this is the only class designed for 1v1s…
You have already lost all credibility long ago, so I am not speaking to you further.

To be honest, you had no credibility from the start, by saying thief was designed to 1v1 any class…

@ your bottom paragraph, I literally stated this in my response. Wasting time? This is subjective if the opponent also wasted the same time to defend the node not capped. Sure you would be a moron to go around 1v1ing capped nodes, but giving up uncapped nodes? That just speaks volumes for your skill level and expertise as a Thief.

Other classes can disengage, that’s fair. But the argument is about Thief, and not all classes run away without even engaging. You’re trying to establish equality in your argument on disengaging, then also establish equality in class balance based on this fallacy, when the classes are nothing alike, and are balanced differently.

You all have stated the same thing over and over again, Thief was not designed around 1v1, then given no proof otherwise. If it is how Choppy stated, and Thieves were designed around Conquest, and everything else is a fallout of it, then explain to me why he considers them sub par in Conquest. The sole thing being nodes?

Well if Thieves were designed around the ability to acquire nodes with mobility, then why are their skillset for 1v1s? Why are they according to Choppy, balanced for Conquest and suck in Conquest? You have yet to explain this. As HitIer says in Mein Kampf, “Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth”, which is exactly what you are doing making claims without proof, when Thief being the best 1v1 class is my proof.

This company may have intended balance for all classes in Conquest in the beginning, but all classes are not designed to be balanced around Conquest after they have tinkered with them. So if Thieves are sub par in Conquest, then why are people screaming for nerfs if Thief is sub par at the only method that this company balanced around? There’s so many flaws and circular logic on all of your statements it baffles me that you actually believe what you type.

I already did. As have many others. You’re a hopeless case by being so argumentative when literlly every experienced person here is telling you that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Martym.6971:

@ your bottom paragraph, I literally stated this in my response. Wasting time? This is subjective if the opponent also wasted the same time to defend the node not capped. Sure you would be a moron to go around 1v1ing capped nodes, but giving up uncapped nodes? That just speaks volumes for your skill level and expertise as a Thief.

This just further proves you have no insight into higher levels of game-play.

No, good thieves do not fight 1v1 over full cap nodes… Once a node has been decapped, there is no other reason for them to stay, other then to finish a +1. For a thief, the better play is ALWAYS to leave instead of engaging the 1v1, whether it’s your cap, contested cap or the enemies cap.

Ask any decent thief and they will tell you the same thing.

Man, this was an entertaining read.

Martym, please don’t claim that the thief players in this forum that ACTUALLY know what they’re talking about (you dont) are “Bronze players” whilst simultaneously claiming that Thieves are balanced around 1v1 in Conquest and that NOT 1v1ing on points makes you a bad Thief.

Literally watch any single one of the e-sports leagues, watch players like Sindrener and Toker, do you see them dueling on point? No. Do you see them running away from 1v1s? Yes. Why? Because any Thief player worth his salt knows that no matter how good he is at 1v1, that is NOT his role and is not what his class is suited towards in a 5v5 context. If I see a DH coming to 1v1 me on point, I WILL leave because I’ll lose that fight almost every time. That has nothing to do with my skills as a Thief (pretty average admittedly) but everything to do with how Thief is pretty poor at fighting 1v1 in PvP, and how DH or Necro or Zerker or Ranger… They’re much better at fighting on a point than I am.

How on earth you can claim that Thief is balanced around 1v1 when literally everyone knows that balance in this game is done with 5v5 Conquest in mind is beyond me. This has been the case for a long time.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Man, this was an entertaining read.

Martym, please don’t claim that the thief players in this forum that ACTUALLY know what they’re talking about (you dont) are “Bronze players” whilst simultaneously claiming that Thieves are balanced around 1v1 in Conquest and that NOT 1v1ing on points makes you a bad Thief.

Literally watch any single one of the e-sports leagues, watch players like Sindrener and Toker, do you see them dueling on point? No. Do you see them running away from 1v1s? Yes. Why? Because any Thief player worth his salt knows that no matter how good he is at 1v1, that is NOT his role and is not what his class is suited towards in a 5v5 context. If I see a DH coming to 1v1 me on point, I WILL leave because I’ll lose that fight almost every time. That has nothing to do with my skills as a Thief (pretty average admittedly) but everything to do with how Thief is pretty poor at fighting 1v1 in PvP, and how DH or Necro or Zerker or Ranger… They’re much better at fighting on a point than I am.

How on earth you can claim that Thief is balanced around 1v1 when literally everyone knows that balance in this game is done with 5v5 Conquest in mind is beyond me. This has been the case for a long time.

I will agree with most of this, however pending on the class or build (from what I can see), I may fight 1v1 on a point, however if 2+ come then i’ve done my job and gtfo to another point.

The bulk of the salt about Thief comes from WvW, not PvP. PvP thief was never a problem.

It’s in WvW that Thieves/DD too often have a risk/reward ratio that is kittened and a very annoying play style to fight against.

In WvW it is a completely different animal and a lot of the salt there is legitimate IMHO. Not in PvP tho.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The bulk of the salt about Thief comes from WvW, not PvP. PvP thief was never a problem.

It’s in WvW that Thieves/DD too often have a risk/reward ratio that is kittened and a very annoying play style to fight against.

In WvW it is a completely different animal and a lot of the salt there is legitimate IMHO. Not in PvP tho.

That heavily depends on the build. It’s mostly DrD-specific at this point given Ghost Thief being deleted due to its abuse in PvE (thankfully). There are definitely PITA core builds, but for the most part they can all be shut down pretty easily. Daredevil itself is just much more forgiving, and people in general have higher defenses given Marauder amulet etc. which makes thieves in particular a lot tankier than normal. Since the Daredevil emphasizes its incapacity to be locked down, and a lot of people run “second chance” (or “third chance”) utilities/traits, punishing one is also a lot harder.

I think a big thing in WvW is that most people when unfamiliar with a class expect similar behavior to sPvP or use sPvP strategy/numbers as a basis for trying to understand how to play. The thief’s skills and so on have horrible base values and excellent scaling, which makes them a lot deadlier in WvW where stats are higher (AKA not horrible like in sPvP) and builds much more granular allowing for more min-maxing and optimization. This lets the thief actually bring a serious punch if built for it with a lot more oomph than sPvP. So when people read “just facetank/ burn it instantly, or ignore it” as PvP advice to deal with thieves, there’s a lot of concern when thieves are suddenly doing way more than they “should” in PvP.

No capture points/countering mobility and stealth are also major factors. They can utilize the whole field in WvW and take advantage of their mechanics rather than being pretty limited when it comes to fighting tactics in sPvP.

I main Ele, and when a thief decides he’s going after me, it’s game over, even when I try to tank my ele build. They disappear and pop up next to me and it’s normally over in two seconds before I have time to put in a proper response.

If I manage a dodge or a counter in time, they just go invisible again and I barely have time to get my health back up before they pop up right next to me again and finish the job. The dps for the thief is too high to justify how evasive it is, IMO. When I’m running small parties the thief is usually on top with DPS, and I just top with squishiness and no match in evasiveness or dps compared to them to show for it.

I understand that thief is squishy as well, but the normal amount of evasiveness severely overcompensates for it.

Etharzi Ors.7126:

I main Ele, and when a thief decides he’s going after me, it’s game over, even when I try to tank my ele build. They disappear and pop up next to me and it’s normally over in two seconds before I have time to put in a proper response.

If I manage a dodge or a counter in time, they just go invisible again and I barely have time to get my health back up before they pop up right next to me again and finish the job. The dps for the thief is too high to justify how evasive it is, IMO. When I’m running small parties the thief is usually on top with DPS, and I just top with squishiness and no match in evasiveness or dps compared to them to show for it.

I understand that thief is squishy as well, but the normal amount of evasiveness severely overcompensates for it.

Run support or Celestial and not Mara/zerker .lif you don’t want to be squishy or run a mix of Celestial and Marauder, taking the Squishiest class both HP wise and armor wise and using glass stats is going to give you a bad time…. every class has a preferred style of play. Can’t blame that on other classes especially when built right the Ele is quite Burst and tacky at the same time (see Celestial/Marauder mix). And let’s not forget all the get out of jail frees Ele can pack into a build or the Sustain they can pack in on top of those.

Martym.6971:

You all have stated the same thing over and over again, Thief was not designed around 1v1, then given no proof otherwise.

Because this is common knowledge. While the Thief waste time trying to 1v1, his team is losing points because the other team has 2 nodes capped. The Thief isn’t doing his team any favor wasting time. The Thief needs to be aware of the map situation and capitalize on stealing undefended nodes, not waste time on an inconclusive 1v1 scenario. If you don’t have map awareness, you’re a liability, not an asset. Unlike your position, I believe that the Thief is more productive if they stay in a group using D/D — but that’s me.

Thief should test the waters depending on the situation. Some people you can 1v1 and do some serious damage to their team’s viability.

Take a 1-3-1 split. You 1v1 while your team is 4v3 on mid. If your team takes the momentum and wins mid they can back you up (don’t over-extend yourself). If they win mid with 3v4 then you have bigger problems for your team in any case. I’d do this if the person you are 1v1ing is more easily pressured by you (not a guardian with multiple resets built in).

Or you can let them take the point while you back up your mid, 5v3. Full team mid, then you can let your team rotate a person home while you decap far and then back to mid for the +1. Both options work depending on the flow of the game. Very map dependent as well.

saerni.2584:

Thief should test the waters depending on the situation. Some people you can 1v1 and do some serious damage to their team’s viability.

In 1-3-1 split, the Thief should +1 one of the nodes which will guarantee a cap. You should avoid 1v1 if you can. The only reason an opponent would want to 1v1 you as a Thief is to remove you from actually doing your job. If they can make you to commit to a 1v1 scenario, they are more than likely have already won. The only exemption I can see is if your Thief is dueling another Thief, which typically leaves the game a 4v4 team play with no one to upset the stalemate.

As I said it depends. You may be able to quickly down them and hurt them significantly. Just giving up the node is not always ideal.

Usually is other thief or Mesmer where sticking around is viable. Taking Mesmer out can help reduce the other teams group mobility and also cuts down the Moa spikes.

That said, I just test the waters, if it isn’t working there is no need to stick around.

saerni.2584:

As I said it depends. You may be able to quickly down them and hurt them significantly. Just giving up the node is not always ideal.

Usually is other thief or Mesmer where sticking around is viable. Taking Mesmer out can help reduce the other teams group mobility and also cuts down the Moa spikes.

That said, I just test the waters, if it isn’t working there is no need to stick around.

Yeah, totally agree.