Guild Wars 2

To start out, I will point out why people think that thief is op. I have heard about 3 reasons: 1. “perma-stealth” D/P builds, 2. Insane burst with D/X Backstab builds, and 3. “perma-evade” S/D builds

So let me shoot down every one of these reasons that the thief is op.
1. “perma-stealth” D/P builds.
First, you can’t perma-stealth and do damage, because of this wonderful debuff called “revealed” which prevents stealth for 3 seconds. You might think “so what, it’s only 3 seconds!” but I have news for you: three seconds is easily enough to take out 50-100% of a thief’s health, depending on how much damage you do. And, contrary to popular belief, stealth != invulnerability. You can still hit a thief while he is in stealth, and if you’re smart, you will hit them, and possibly even down them. Next, a perma-stealth D/P build is very initiative heavy, and this can be used against them. Third, and the most underused, but easiest counter: when you see that ring of black smoke, go stand in it. 99.9999% of the time the thief will heartseeker through it MULTIPLE TIMES to get maximum amounts of stealth, and if you’re standing in it when he does it he will get revealed and waste about 10 initiative, leaving him extremely vulnerable and most likely dead.

2. Insane burst with D/X builds
Really, there’s not much to this one. I already explained how to counter D/P builds, so here I will explain the counter to D/D builds. To get stealth, a D/D thief will either have to Cloak and Dagger (which has 130 range) or pop either a heal or utility with a 30s+ CD. Most of the time the thief will attempt a backstab about 3-4 seconds into the stealth, so a simple dodge after approximately 2.5 seconds will usually prevent the backstab (if anything taking you too far away for the thief to catch up to you with what little stealth he has left). At this point you simply burst him as much as possible, rinse, and repeat until he dies. Also, for those getting one-hit by a backstab, let me throw some numbers at you. Base damage on a backstab with a full ‘zerker thief is approximately 1200 IF AND ONLY IF YOU GET HIT IN THE BACK. If hit from the front the damage is approximately 600 (aka, half). Now, compare this to a full ’zerker warrior. Base damage for eviscerate stage 3 (full adrenaline) is approximately 1800. That’s 1.5X a backstab that hits in the back, and 3X a backstab that hits in the face. Then, we have a ‘zerker mesmer. Mind wrack when traited for more damage ALSO DOES MORE DAMAGE THAN A BACKSTAB. I don’t recall exact numbers, but I can say I have seen a 15k mind wrack. So the only reason people complain about backstab is it’s “spammability” aka, it’s ability to be used over and over. However, people fail to recognize the 3 second reveal debuff, and the requirement to both be in stealth AND hit in the back. Also, a ’zerker warrior has WAY more survivability than a ’zerker thief, and a ’zerker mesmer has plenty of ways to survive as well (multiple invulnerabilites, clones to tank for them, and lots of cc). Given all of this information, there is no way you can claim that thief has the advantage over other classes that typically have ’zerker builds.

3. Perma-evade with S/D builds
First and foremost, it is not perma-evade. The only way a thief can get perma-evade is through spear 5 spam with withdraw, roll for initiative, and infiltrator’s signet while underwater, which is op. Otherwise, the thief is vulnerable approximately 50% of the time if played well, and 55-60% of the time if played poorly. This is about equal to the 3s stealth 3s revealed of a D/X build. If you can’t hit a thief playing S/D, it’s probably that the thief is out-playing you, not simply 3-spamming. A ’zerker S/D thief is going to drop very quickly and is very succeptible to channel attacks and rapid fire attacks (ranger short bow, engi flamethrower/grenades, etc.). Also, the only move that does reasonable damage is Larcenous Strike (with a base damage of about 1k), and is very obvious and easily avoidable.

So, next time you fight a thief, take these things into account and see how easy they are to kill. Granted, there are thieves out there that are very good, learn from their mistakes, and will simply outplay you. However, this is no different than every other class out there. The problem most people have with thieves is that they have never played one and thus don’t understand how they work. My main advice if you’re still having trouble fighting thieves is to play one and level it to about 40 just to learn the basic rotations that work so you can effectively anticipate their next move.

If there is any complaint about thieves I missed, please point it out and I’ll do my best to prove that wrong too. If you disagree with anything I said feel free to debate me and I’ll do my best to prove my points.

“stealth != invulnerability”

if only people would learn this there would be alot less QQ.

-Switch to weapon with ground target aoe
-Roll face
-Ded thief

Base damage on a backstab with a full ‘zerker thief is approximately 1200 IF AND ONLY IF YOU GET HIT IN THE BACK.

It deals full damage from side also.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Base damage on a backstab with a full ‘zerker thief is approximately 1200 IF AND ONLY IF YOU GET HIT IN THE BACK.

It deals full damage from side also.

Yes, this is true, the point I was trying to make though was that backstab does have many preconditions to deal full damage. Thanks for pointing this out though

Zepidel.5349:

“stealth != invulnerability”

if only people would learn this there would be alot less QQ.

-Switch to weapon with ground target aoe
-Roll face
-Ded thief

Yes, because a single ground target can cover the entire battlefield to which the thief can easily teleport to.

I agree with your post, I just recently started to play my 80 theif in WvW because I finally broke my bank to gear it out in (mostly) the correct gear. (I still lack like ~10% crit damage)

I was expecting to just roll face with my backstabbing self, given all of the complainers about thieves in the forums/game. And I do alright, but most of the time, I’m getting 4100-4500 on my backstab crits. This is obviously a lot less than the “OMG backstab hit me for 9k” posts.

Also, CnD is hard to land several times in a row. (Which is required for infiltrating roaming groups or zergs.) But that’s the fun part of the build!

I have hit a light armor upleveled necro for 8k once. Maybe everybody from Yaks Bend and Crystal Desert is running around with max toughness…

Fomby.4295:

I agree with your post, I just recently started to play my 80 theif in WvW because I finally broke my bank to gear it out in (mostly) the correct gear. (I still lack like ~10% crit damage)

I was expecting to just roll face with my backstabbing self, given all of the complainers about thieves in the forums/game. And I do alright, but most of the time, I’m getting 4100-4500 on my backstab crits. This is obviously a lot less than the “OMG backstab hit me for 9k” posts.

Also, CnD is hard to land several times in a row. (Which is required for infiltrating roaming groups or zergs.) But that’s the fun part of the build!

I have hit a light armor upleveled necro for 8k once. Maybe everybody from Yaks Bend and Crystal Desert is running around with max toughness…

Well that’s why the typical response from thief mains is roll one yourself and try to do it. People don’t complain when I whip out an 11k eviscerate on my 20k hp 2.8k armor warrior every 8 seconds, but when i whip out a 6k backstab on my thief with 4/6 ascended trinkets everyone freaks out.

you make it sound so easy even though its not, especially since heartseeker is a leap skill that goes from 1 side of the blind field to the other, and leap skills won’t hit something midway through it.

not to mention even if you do manage to get in the way he has utilities and can easily get out of your range to run to his next field.

and not to mention the zerker theif still has access to a 900 range teleport at the touch of a F1 button.
dodge rolling at the end of 3 seconds won’t always work, especially with a short CD of 45 secs. even more so if he’s traited to gain stealth when he steals.

the only way to kill a perma stealth theif in 3 secs is to have a zerker build yourself and even then he can easily turn around and gank your kitten . then go right back into perma stealth.

Maugetarr.6823:

Fomby.4295:

I agree with your post, I just recently started to play my 80 theif in WvW because I finally broke my bank to gear it out in (mostly) the correct gear. (I still lack like ~10% crit damage)

I was expecting to just roll face with my backstabbing self, given all of the complainers about thieves in the forums/game. And I do alright, but most of the time, I’m getting 4100-4500 on my backstab crits. This is obviously a lot less than the “OMG backstab hit me for 9k” posts.

Also, CnD is hard to land several times in a row. (Which is required for infiltrating roaming groups or zergs.) But that’s the fun part of the build!

I have hit a light armor upleveled necro for 8k once. Maybe everybody from Yaks Bend and Crystal Desert is running around with max toughness…

Well that’s why the typical response from thief mains is roll one yourself and try to do it. People don’t complain when I whip out an 11k eviscerate on my 20k hp 2.8k armor warrior every 8 seconds, but when i whip out a 6k backstab on my thief with 4/6 ascended trinkets everyone freaks out.

It’s mostly because people can’t see said backstab coming (which is kinda the whole point), no matter the damage output. At least with warriors you can see a unique leaping animation flying towards you. My only qualm with stealth is that even with dropping aoe’s on the floor there’s no indication at all that the person took damage. Fights against thieves / mesmers can be exciting and fun, but the tedious guesswork of spamming 1 to see if the chain continues, or throwing down aoes where they ‘might go’ gets real old real quick. Not saying it needs to be nerfed or anything, but there’s got to be a better way of tracking an invis player rather than just flailing weapons in all directions.

Do damage numbers appear in your combat log if you hit someone in stealth?

Dagraan.2854:

you make it sound so easy even though its not, especially since heartseeker is a leap skill that goes from 1 side of the blind field to the other, and leap skills won’t hit something midway through it.

not to mention even if you do manage to get in the way he has utilities and can easily get out of your range to run to his next field.

and not to mention the zerker theif still has access to a 900 range teleport at the touch of a F1 button.
dodge rolling at the end of 3 seconds won’t always work, especially with a short CD of 45 secs. even more so if he’s traited to gain stealth when he steals.

the only way to kill a perma stealth theif in 3 secs is to have a zerker build yourself and even then he can easily turn around and gank your kitten . then go right back into perma stealth.

#1: actually, heart seeker DOES hit you even if it’s half way through the leap.
#2. This is why I always suggest playing a thief. I started off as a thief and played a P/D caltrops condi build, and had sooo much trouble fighting backstab builds, no matter what I played. I switched to backstab just to try it out. After playing backstab build for about 2 weeks, watching Yishis’ videos, and practicing timing, etc. I got to be really good. Better than the average thief at least. At this point I started playing my ranger again (as I just got commander) and while soloing I suddenly noticed I knew EXACTLY where the thief was while he was in stealth. Why? Because I new what he had to do as soon as he got into stealth, I knew his mechanics, his teleports I had paid attention to his signets beforehand (infiltrator’s signet gives a second teleport) and I knew exactly how and when he would try to hit me. Ever since, I have not died to a thief on my Ranger… AT ALL!!! Try leveling a thief, and learning its mechanics. Then, when fighting a thief, instead of thinking “Spam 1!! Is my chain progressing?” think "If I were this thief, where would I be and where would I be heading. Aim there, and if you hit, you have him right where you want him. If not, dodge. In his 3 seconds of revealed, take time to think "why was he not where I expected. Look at boons to see if anything changed (used infiltrator’s signet for teleport) that let’s you know how the situation has changed. Once he restealths, think, with your newly gathered information, “If I were this thief, where would I be and where would I be heading.” Again, go to where you expect him to be and start swinging. This process will continue until one of you dies. This will make the fight more interesting and fun. It also keeps you on even terms, as the thief, when he stealths, will use that time to evaluate what he has in his advantage and how he can trick you and get his backstab off. Use the thief’s thinking time as your own thinking time and you will no longer be at a disadvantage.

Alex.6940:

Do damage numbers appear in your combat log if you hit someone in stealth?

No, but if it is a chain attack, you will notice the chain progress. Also, if the skill has a visual effect that takes place on the target (most noticeable is ranger’s entangle, which leaves binding roots on the target) it will appear where the thief is, letting you know where the thief was when that skill hit the thief.

Setun.4368:

Maugetarr.6823:

Fomby.4295:

I agree with your post, I just recently started to play my 80 theif in WvW because I finally broke my bank to gear it out in (mostly) the correct gear. (I still lack like ~10% crit damage)

I was expecting to just roll face with my backstabbing self, given all of the complainers about thieves in the forums/game. And I do alright, but most of the time, I’m getting 4100-4500 on my backstab crits. This is obviously a lot less than the “OMG backstab hit me for 9k” posts.

Also, CnD is hard to land several times in a row. (Which is required for infiltrating roaming groups or zergs.) But that’s the fun part of the build!

I have hit a light armor upleveled necro for 8k once. Maybe everybody from Yaks Bend and Crystal Desert is running around with max toughness…

Well that’s why the typical response from thief mains is roll one yourself and try to do it. People don’t complain when I whip out an 11k eviscerate on my 20k hp 2.8k armor warrior every 8 seconds, but when i whip out a 6k backstab on my thief with 4/6 ascended trinkets everyone freaks out.

It’s mostly because people can’t see said backstab coming (which is kinda the whole point), no matter the damage output. At least with warriors you can see a unique leaping animation flying towards you. My only qualm with stealth is that even with dropping aoe’s on the floor there’s no indication at all that the person took damage. Fights against thieves / mesmers can be exciting and fun, but the tedious guesswork of spamming 1 to see if the chain continues, or throwing down aoes where they ‘might go’ gets real old real quick. Not saying it needs to be nerfed or anything, but there’s got to be a better way of tracking an invis player rather than just flailing weapons in all directions.

Oddly enough, I usually don’t swing wildly (with my current builds) because both my engi and warrior have enough control/burst to take the thief down while visible. Setting up a shield bash/eviscerate after a chop/double chop chain is usually enough to take down a D/X thief. With an engi, it’s usually overcharged shot, net shot, jump shot, blunderbuss, grenade barrage, pry-bar. Usually if a thief isn’t down, they are running at this point and I can continue on my way. As to dodging eviscerate, most people don’t so far against me which might be due to my warrior being an asura with a harder to see animation.

So easy to beat a D/X thief as engi: run while throwing grenades backwards behind you. If they chase you they will die and if they run, well, they’re still not a problem.

Craig.2403:

Alex.6940:

Do damage numbers appear in your combat log if you hit someone in stealth?

No, but if it is a chain attack, you will notice the chain progress. Also, if the skill has a visual effect that takes place on the target (most noticeable is ranger’s entangle, which leaves binding roots on the target) it will appear where the thief is, letting you know where the thief was when that skill hit the thief.

99.9999% sure that they do show up in the combat log.

Incurafy.6329:

Craig.2403:

Alex.6940:

Do damage numbers appear in your combat log if you hit someone in stealth?

No, but if it is a chain attack, you will notice the chain progress. Also, if the skill has a visual effect that takes place on the target (most noticeable is ranger’s entangle, which leaves binding roots on the target) it will appear where the thief is, letting you know where the thief was when that skill hit the thief.

99.9999% sure that they do show up in the combat log.

Then you’re probably right. I never have the combat log open because it takes up too much of the chat panel. Being on a server where the commanders use team chat as opposed to teamspeak (though there is a server teamspeak, it’s just there’s never people on it) I tend to miss instructions if I have the combat log open.

It is sad that thiefs have to learn people tactics how to kill them to convince people that we are not so OP how they think.
Worse is that most people are so blinded that they will probably not even open post named ,,Why thief is NOT op"…

Craig.2403:

…. Try leveling a thief, and learning its mechanics. Then, … think …. In his 3 seconds of revealed, take time to think …. Once he restealths, think, with your newly gathered information…. use the thief’s thinking time as your own thinking time….

You sure have high expectations for this community, do you?

So, from another outsider’s point of view, thieves are a pain in the kitten . There is no simple way to counter them as really any class. People will say, “oh x y z and he’s usually dead or running,” but in most spvp or tpvp situations you don’t have the option to save x, y, or z, since you’re too busy fighting visible or more pressing opponents when a thief shows up. 1v1, as long as the thief isn’t an idiot, he’ll realize after x, dodge y and z will be worthless. Not to say the thief is excessively overpowered, but, for a crude comparison, they’re very similar to the spy of tf2. Powerful enough to kill an inattentive or distracted player easily, and given mechanics to let him escape what would normally be certain death. Our problem is, there is no pyro, nothing to make the thief go, “kitten, can’t run in there or I won’t be able to escape.” They have strong battle control, as many classes (especially the engineer) can’t do diddly to them. Actually, engineer is a rather bad example, but, if you lack weapons that give indications when you hit a stealthed target, invisibility is -nearly- invincibility.

On the other hand, a thief unable to stealth or use his mobility is basically dead. Keeping them immobile is nearly impossible though, as they have access to the same condition removals and stun breakers as any other class, which would be fine if their mechanic wasn’t so versatile. And yes, it has been nerfed slightly, you have to dodge after you attack now before you can go back into stealth.

I have played a thief in spvp and tourneys, upwards of 200 matches total, and few of my other characters can even try hold a candle to how good it is. My personal favorite is a p/d venom share, combining healing, emergency stealth, and condition damage to win the majority of fights easily. I don’t have to position myself, I just apply poison, bleed, and immobilize straight out of stealth, then avoid my opponent until they either they try to immobilize me or they bleed out. Biggest challenges tend to be other thieves, as they can stealth to remove conditions, and I have to wait for them to come out before I restealth.

Honestly though, this is just my experiences and my opinions. If you disagree and think thieves are fine as they are, good on ya. I’m going to try to find a strong counter, and turn your rear into porridge.

Here are some things I’ve noticed in 600+ hours as a thief.

This is a long response, apologies but I wanted to be detailed. Skip over if you’re not interested in learning about thief mechanics.

People often think they have to use all their resources avoiding the backstab when facing a d/x thief, as they think this will give them an opening. It won’t. If I miss a backstab I lose nothing. When I come out of stealth without attacking, I get no revealed penalty and can go straight back into stealth immediately. A thief is most vulnerable when they are low on initiative.

I play a d/d thief, so rely on one melee attack to enter stealth. Because of this play style, I often have to use my shadowstep utilities like steal or infiltrators signet to make sure my cloak and dagger will connect. This is a double edged sword, as it forces me to use my defensive utilities offensively, giving me less chance of getting out of danger if I find myself in trouble.

The animation for the cloak and dagger attack takes about 1 second to complete, and can be spotted if you know what it looks like. If I miss my cloak and dagger, whether through someone dodging, having aegis, blinding me, going invulnerable, blocking or whatever, I lose half my initiative. If I miss it a SECOND time, I’m down to almost no initiative. That means I have to now rely on my utilities to stay alive, presuming that I haven’t already used them to initiate an attack on an opponent. If I’m using my utilities to escape/dodge your attacks, I have no way to counterattack. If I have no initiative, I have no on demand stealth. If you can cc me at this point, I have no way of escaping.

I don’t play d/p much anymore, but two things I’ve noticed when fighting them:

1. The best way to stop the thief from stealth stacking (doing repeated heartseekers inside the black powder circle) is to stand inside of their blcak powder (the red circle of smoke that blinds you). Most d/p thieves will use 2-3 heart seekers inside a black powder to get maximum benefit from it (5-6 secs of stealth), and because each time they successfully stealth they regenerate 2 initiative, minimising the cost of heart seeker and maximising the benefit. So if you’re standing inside the black powder field they will either:

- hit you on the second heart seeker and be revealed, stopping them from reapplying stealth for 3 secs and forcing them to restart the combo.

- be forced to not do a second heart seeker. If this is the case they will only have done 1 heartseeker, gained about 2 seconds of stealth, and will be down to about 2-3 initiative. The thief now has to reset the combo. This is expensive in terms of initiative, as black powder costs 6 initiative (half of their total) and heart seeker costs 3. They only regenerate initiative if they successfully stealth, so by standing inside the black powder you are forcing them to either hit you and break stealth, or move away and try and reset the combo.

If the thief is low on initiative and not able to stack stealth, they will try to stay INSIDE of the black powder circle and get you to fight in it. This leads to my second point.

2. you CAN still hit thieves when they’re standing inside their black powder circle, but it takes some positioning. Fast hitting attacks such as a frenzied hundred blades will be hitting faster than the blinds are applied so around half the hits will connect. However because your melee range is actually larger than the radius of the blind field, if you are outside the circle and positioned very close to the edge of it, you will be able to hit them with melee attacks without being blinded at all when they’re standing inside it. Make sure to clear any blinds by auto attacking before attempting a cc move though.

ALSO, any attack that is initiated OUTSIDE of the blind field will not be affected by the blind, even if you enter the blind field during the attack. One example is a leap attack, if you leap into the blind field, with something like a warrior’s bulls rush or guardian’s leap of faith the attack will still connect.

Just to shoot down point 1 from OP, using any of the below, will restealth you without the reveal debuff. I have seen thieves bring down someone to 30% HP with multiple attacks and just popping out from stealth 3 times for 1/10th of a second each.

Combos that grant stealth
Combo Field: Smoke × Combo Finisher: Blast
Combo Field: Smoke × Combo Finisher: Leap

Overall thieves are fine as is, no buff but definitely no nerfs needed I think. Just more diversity.

I actually want to thank you guys, Craig and Jakare…I still feel that stealth is an insanely overpowered ability…and that larcenous strike is even more insanely overpowered…BUT…I am taking your posts to heart, and will start leveling my thief, and keeping these points in mind the next time I fight one in wvw…assuming I catch one alone…they seem to run in packs now, and then again there is always the Thieves Guild elite ability…actually, how would you suggest one counter that?
I’ve beaten a few thieves in wvw, (less than 1% of the total I’ve fought against), and if they don’t have thieves guild I can sometimes win, assuming they don’t kill me outright with basilisk venom…but if they do have thieves guild, it’s pretty much game over.

so, while I greatly appreciate your posts on how to counter thieves, how would you suggest countering these two aspects? basilisk venom and theives guild?

solarisnox.8521:

I actually want to thank you guys, Craig and Jakare…I still feel that stealth is an insanely overpowered ability…and that larcenous strike is even more insanely overpowered…BUT…I am taking your posts to heart, and will start leveling my thief, and keeping these points in mind the next time I fight one in wvw…assuming I catch one alone…they seem to run in packs now, and then again there is always the Thieves Guild elite ability…actually, how would you suggest one counter that?
I’ve beaten a few thieves in wvw, (less than 1% of the total I’ve fought against), and if they don’t have thieves guild I can sometimes win, assuming they don’t kill me outright with basilisk venom…but if they do have thieves guild, it’s pretty much game over.

so, while I greatly appreciate your posts on how to counter thieves, how would you suggest countering these two aspects? basilisk venom and theives guild?

what build are you running? a good thief tries to observe what the enemy is, from thief build and movement and adjust what skill to use, it will all boil down to timing, i use basilisk most of the time.

Swim.6830:

Just to shoot down point 1 from OP, using any of the below, will restealth you without the reveal debuff. I have seen thieves bring down someone to 30% HP with multiple attacks and just popping out from stealth 3 times for 1/10th of a second each.

Combos that grant stealth
Combo Field: Smoke × Combo Finisher: Blast
Combo Field: Smoke × Combo Finisher: Leap

Overall thieves are fine as is, no buff but definitely no nerfs needed I think. Just more diversity.

I already explained the answer to this issue. Simply stand in the smoke field and when the attack to restealth they hit you and get revealed. The only leap finisher on these builds is heartseeker, which will hit you no matter where you are in the line of the animation, so standing in the middle of the black powder will GUARANTEE that he hits you, giving him the revealed debuff. He also has no blast finisher while in D/P so in a fight this is worthless. It’s only important if they’re inside a tower, but the same concept applies. Just stand in the field and the thief spamming cluster bomb will get revealed.

Jumping into the smoke field doesn’t work. I just leap to whatever region the person isn’t in in the field, or leap from within the field itself.

I can’t help but wonder where all the threads that try and detail all the reasons Engi/Warr/Necro/Ele aren’t OP are. It’s such a shame that Thief players are all miraculously created with the intimate knowledge needed to counter all the other classes, while other players, of an inferior breed no doubt, need detailed guides to counter the intense skill of the Thief.

Craig.2403:

So easy to beat a D/X thief as engi: run while throwing grenades backwards behind you. If they chase you they will die and if they run, well, they’re still not a problem.

… Come to think of it, I should be trying this with my Bomb build. BUT, they’ll most likely either run away or shadowstep to me.

well blind field got buffed now since you can’t clear blinds with AA and the thief has complete advantage when he’s in the blind field so it actually doesn’t make sense why you would run straight to your grave, so i dont know if its a good idea to go in to the middle of the blind field anymore…not that it was always such a good idea anyways.

I think every class wants to feel like they are underpowered, or very easy to kill. Just go into any forum and look at all the QQ.

In my experience, purely 1v1 vs. a decent Thief is a very difficult fight with my Warrior. I’m not complaining that thieves are OP but it’s a rare occasion when I beat a thief single-handedly. Maybe it’s just a bad match of classes? Or I’m just bad? IDK. I seem to handle myself pretty well against most other classes. Mesmers are difficult because of all the clones and whatnot. But otherwise I do pretty well.

Just be aware that while it seems SOOOOO easy there’s a reason that thieves get complained about alot. I mean, you can go with the idea that the majority of players in GW2 are bad, or you can follow logic and understand that it’s simply difficult to keep up with an enemy that has alot of evades/teleports/stealths/blinds. It’s just hard. It’s the same reason Mesmers are complained about. 1v1, these classes are kings of dueling, as they have the ability to reset fights to their liking (stealth), lots of active defense (dodging, evades, clones, blinds), and because of those abilities they are able to go glassy and still be able to stay in a fight.

Again….not claiming they’re OP. Just that they’re really good dueling classes and they are not such a free kill as you’re claiming them to be TC.

THEmeltor.7295:

I think every class wants to feel like they are underpowered, or very easy to kill. Just go into any forum and look at all the QQ.

In my experience, purely 1v1 vs. a decent Thief is a very difficult fight with my Warrior. I’m not complaining that thieves are OP but it’s a rare occasion when I beat a thief single-handedly. Maybe it’s just a bad match of classes? Or I’m just bad? IDK. I seem to handle myself pretty well against most other classes. Mesmers are difficult because of all the clones and whatnot. But otherwise I do pretty well.

Just be aware that while it seems SOOOOO easy there’s a reason that thieves get complained about alot. I mean, you can go with the idea that the majority of players in GW2 are bad, or you can follow logic and understand that it’s simply difficult to keep up with an enemy that has alot of evades/teleports/stealths/blinds. It’s just hard. It’s the same reason Mesmers are complained about. 1v1, these classes are kings of dueling, as they have the ability to reset fights to their liking (stealth), lots of active defense (dodging, evades, clones, blinds), and because of those abilities they are able to go glassy and still be able to stay in a fight.

Again….not claiming they’re OP. Just that they’re really good dueling classes and they are not such a free kill as you’re claiming them to be TC.

I have commented this on another “thief is not op topic” but I will say it again here. Thief is usually considered op because it has such a high skill ceiling. A really good thief has the potential to be really good, which draws a lot of people to the class (including me). Because (like you said) a thief’s defense is active, not passive, a thief can go glass cannon. Not because, like a warrior, he can just take enough damage even with ‘zerker gear, but because he can OUTPLAY his opponent. If a thief beats you 1v1 it is nothing to be ashamed of, it’s what they’re designed to do. If a thief beats you 1v4 it’s your own fault and L2P. If you beat a thief 1v1 gratz and tell others your sectets. I happen to be someone who has beat a thief 1v1 all the time (even on my other classes) and has shared my secrets. Whether people take them and use them is up to them, but I can’t control whether people will take and use my tips. All I can do is try to convince people that thieves are not op and give legitimate reasons why.

I understand that….just want you and others to recognize that Thieves are not some easy faceroll class to beat for other players…the original post comes off like Thieves are terrible and should be easily killed by every class. That is definitely not the case.

They are a very good dueling class. And difficult to beat when played well, even if the other class is doing everything right. Seems like you understand that, I think. Just wanted to point it out.

The only OP thing about thief was pre-nerf dancing dagger. Other than that they have just been getting nerfed into the ground because people whine about them constantly for some reason.

yes theives are one of the best 2 or 3 duelers in game depending on build. engies/mesmers up ther too. anyway but the fact is that 1 v 1 / dueling has no real purpose / relevancy to this game. and anet is balancing the game like 1 v 1 is the most important

squeezebag.4618:

The only OP thing about thief was pre-nerf dancing dagger. Other than that they have just been getting nerfed into the ground because people whine about them constantly for some reason.

this too. nobody complains about thief in a 5 v 5 or 8 v 8 or 50 v 50 setting. its the SOLE aspect called roaming that the QQers are born from. they(anet AND QQers) both ahve to realize that this isnt important. its not like thieves are spawn camping so it should be a big deal. you see a thief…..have a good build or a support build. you cannot have both. bc the build that the thief is using is meant for dueling and will falter in larger combat areas where as the other classes in wvw are quite teh opposite. if thats the case lets nerf every other class to the ground so they all suck at large fights like thief but can atleast duel. see how much fun they have then.

Incurafy.6329:

Craig.2403:

Alex.6940:

Do damage numbers appear in your combat log if you hit someone in stealth?

No, but if it is a chain attack, you will notice the chain progress. Also, if the skill has a visual effect that takes place on the target (most noticeable is ranger’s entangle, which leaves binding roots on the target) it will appear where the thief is, letting you know where the thief was when that skill hit the thief.

99.9999% sure that they do show up in the combat log.

hits don’t show up in the combat log when you hit a stealthed enemy, iv’e tried it before when trying to fight some perma stealth thief, and no standing in the blind field will not get you hit by their heartseeker, especially if they have the speed signet and the trait to give 50% more speed in stealth and since heartseeker is a leap its affected by it.
they’ll just jump right past you and not to mention the mobility they have means you’ll need another theif just to have a chance to get to the blind field in time, and even if he does hit you all he has to do is evade and pop shadow refuge or the heartseeker spam over the blind field again.

i have 6 accounts including a thief and i have never, ever hit something mid leap with the heartseeker, and the middle of the blind field is “mid leap”

I have a thief and I have hit someone mid-leap, so maybe this is something Anet needs to look at

Dagraan.2854:

Incurafy.6329:

Craig.2403:

Alex.6940:

Do damage numbers appear in your combat log if you hit someone in stealth?

No, but if it is a chain attack, you will notice the chain progress. Also, if the skill has a visual effect that takes place on the target (most noticeable is ranger’s entangle, which leaves binding roots on the target) it will appear where the thief is, letting you know where the thief was when that skill hit the thief.

99.9999% sure that they do show up in the combat log.

hits don’t show up in the combat log when you hit a stealthed enemy, iv’e tried it before when trying to fight some perma stealth thief, and no standing in the blind field will not get you hit by their heartseeker, especially if they have the speed signet and the trait to give 50% more speed in stealth and since heartseeker is a leap its affected by it.
they’ll just jump right past you and not to mention the mobility they have means you’ll need another theif just to have a chance to get to the blind field in time, and even if he does hit you all he has to do is evade and pop shadow refuge or the heartseeker spam over the blind field again.

i have 6 accounts including a thief and i have never, ever hit something mid leap with the heartseeker, and the middle of the blind field is “mid leap”

when its said you hit somebody mid leap…. i think its when you jump from point a to point b there is a guy right between them even tho you jump past him you still hit him as you land on point b. this is quite common and happens to me all the time. if i stand in BPS you will break their invis withing 2.5 seconds guaranteed unless they use a heal/utility. also swing wildly inside of it :P

Craig.2403:

Also, a ’zerker warrior has WAY more survivability than a ’zerker thief, and a ’zerker mesmer has plenty of ways to survive as well (multiple invulnerabilites, clones to tank for them, and lots of cc).

So, basically you’re telling people thief is not op ‘cause is just a lp2 issue, but you don’t know how to kite a zerker warr or kill a zerger mesmer due to clones (LOL and you have even a mesmer ahahahahahahha)… ah ok.

Just a suggestion, instead of open 3ds on the forum, make an account on Daoc and play a true stealther class, maybe you can learn something about the stealther class ;-)

bit of advice: never compare 2 very different games :P …i know people complain but just kinda like apples n oranges kinda thing :P

Edeor.9720:

Craig.2403:

Also, a ’zerker warrior has WAY more survivability than a ’zerker thief, and a ’zerker mesmer has plenty of ways to survive as well (multiple invulnerabilites, clones to tank for them, and lots of cc).

So, basically you’re telling people thief is not op ‘cause is just a lp2 issue, but you don’t know how to kite a zerker warr or kill a zerger mesmer due to clones (LOL and you have even a mesmer ahahahahahahha)… ah ok.

Just a suggestion, instead of open 3ds on the forum, make an account on Daoc and play a true stealther class, maybe you can learn something about the stealther class ;-)

When did I say I had trouble fighting these classes? I simply stated that they have forms of survivability too, just like a thief. You say you know how to kite warrior, or kill a mesmer, but isn’t that an L2P issue too? And why would you compare one game to another. The thief in GW2 has it’s own role and play style, so you should have to adapt to the devs’ version of a thief, not your own. When I have trouble fighting a class, instead of going to the forums and QQ’ing, I play the class so that I can learn how people playing the class thinks, the cool downs, and the basic rotations that work. Then, when fighting it, I have the advantage of knowing what the other person is most likely to do so that I can mitigate his damage. So why don’t you try the same thing: instead of QQ’ing about thieves being hard to kill, go level one and learn it’s strategies so that when you fight one you can be better prepared. Only once you’ve done that do you have the right to come and ask for some real ADVICE, as opposed to simply saying “thief is op because I can’t kill one.”

whelp the original post here is a bit out of date since the latest nerf. So again, QQers rest easy…the thief is finally squashed….

My favorite complaint about thieves is how they always get away…and it’s not fair, they should just die when they’re supposed to. Nevermind that base health is 10k, and the armor is paper. Never mind that 2 hits from your tanky build brought that thief down to 20%, it should’ve stuck around for that third hit, and since it didn’t it’s OP.

As Craig pointed out, other classes can be quite survivable as well, even when specc’d glass. The difference is that if you go against a guardian and can’t bring him down to 80%, after a while, you give up and decide wow, that was a good match. If you go against a decent thief, you may land a few blows on them, but if you bring them down to 20% and get away, you say…aww, I should’ve won that one and the OP’d thief got away!

So the issue here is really psychology. In one case you hit the guy 20 times and barely do a dent, so he must be a good player. In the second case you hit the guy 5 times, nearly kill him and then he gets away, so that’s unfair.

The whole reason thieves have such low health is because we have so many survival skills, it’s the reason you can be outplayed by thief, and still feel like you should’ve won. Just remember, if the thief isn’t downed, or running away from you, you haven’t won.

bobross.5034:

whelp the original post here is a bit out of date since the latest nerf. So again, QQers rest easy…the thief is finally squashed….

My favorite complaint about thieves is how they always get away…and it’s not fair, they should just die when they’re supposed to. Nevermind that base health is 10k, and the armor is paper. Never mind that 2 hits from your tanky build brought that thief down to 20%, it should’ve stuck around for that third hit, and since it didn’t it’s OP.

As Craig pointed out, other classes can be quite survivable as well, even when specc’d glass. The difference is that if you go against a guardian and can’t bring him down to 80%, after a while, you give up and decide wow, that was a good match. If you go against a decent thief, you may land a few blows on them, but if you bring them down to 20% and get away, you say…aww, I should’ve won that one and the OP’d thief got away!

So the issue here is really psychology. In one case you hit the guy 20 times and barely do a dent, so he must be a good player. In the second case you hit the guy 5 times, nearly kill him and then he gets away, so that’s unfair.

The whole reason thieves have such low health is because we have so many survival skills, it’s the reason you can be outplayed by thief, and still feel like you should’ve won. Just remember, if the thief isn’t downed, or running away from you, you haven’t won.

Very well said. I also want to point out that typically a thief has an in-depth knowledge of every class in the game, because he has to know what to expect in order to survive. Countless times I have people explaining a trait to me and I have to explain to them that I already know what it does, even though my only 80’s are thief, mesmer, and ranger. I read the patch notes for every professions’ changes so I know how builds will change, and talk to members of my guild to see how the change affected their build and their rotations (if at all). If a thief is not doing all of these things he is at a disadvantage when fighting you. However, if you enter a fight without knowledge of the thief class, you will be at a severe disadvantage. I could list of pages and pages of tips, but I don’t feel like telling everyone every way to beat the class I like to play the most. So when a thief tells you to L2P, he means that you need to do the same research into the thief that the thief did to the other professions. And click the link in my sig if you want the thieves’ definition of L2P.

Zeke Azul Falcon.5176:

solarisnox.8521:

I actually want to thank you guys, Craig and Jakare…I still feel that stealth is an insanely overpowered ability…and that larcenous strike is even more insanely overpowered…BUT…I am taking your posts to heart, and will start leveling my thief, and keeping these points in mind the next time I fight one in wvw…assuming I catch one alone…they seem to run in packs now, and then again there is always the Thieves Guild elite ability…actually, how would you suggest one counter that?
I’ve beaten a few thieves in wvw, (less than 1% of the total I’ve fought against), and if they don’t have thieves guild I can sometimes win, assuming they don’t kill me outright with basilisk venom…but if they do have thieves guild, it’s pretty much game over.

so, while I greatly appreciate your posts on how to counter thieves, how would you suggest countering these two aspects? basilisk venom and theives guild?

what build are you running? a good thief tries to observe what the enemy is, from thief build and movement and adjust what skill to use, it will all boil down to timing, i use basilisk most of the time.

it doesn’t seem to matter…if I get hit with basilisk venom I’m immobilized for 3 seconds, and since they usually apply it from stealth and from behind, I pretty much have no choice in the matter.
There seems to be no counter to basilisk and thieves guild. One thief is bad enough, 3 or 4 is…well..y’know.

solarisnox.8521:

Zeke Azul Falcon.5176:

solarisnox.8521:

I actually want to thank you guys, Craig and Jakare…I still feel that stealth is an insanely overpowered ability…and that larcenous strike is even more insanely overpowered…BUT…I am taking your posts to heart, and will start leveling my thief, and keeping these points in mind the next time I fight one in wvw…assuming I catch one alone…they seem to run in packs now, and then again there is always the Thieves Guild elite ability…actually, how would you suggest one counter that?
I’ve beaten a few thieves in wvw, (less than 1% of the total I’ve fought against), and if they don’t have thieves guild I can sometimes win, assuming they don’t kill me outright with basilisk venom…but if they do have thieves guild, it’s pretty much game over.

so, while I greatly appreciate your posts on how to counter thieves, how would you suggest countering these two aspects? basilisk venom and theives guild?

what build are you running? a good thief tries to observe what the enemy is, from thief build and movement and adjust what skill to use, it will all boil down to timing, i use basilisk most of the time.

it doesn’t seem to matter…if I get hit with basilisk venom I’m immobilized for 3 seconds, and since they usually apply it from stealth and from behind, I pretty much have no choice in the matter.
There seems to be no counter to basilisk and thieves guild. One thief is bad enough, 3 or 4 is…well..y’know.

First, basi venom is 2 seconds, not 3. Second, what class is your main, and what type of build do you run? For basi venom I would suggest running runes of melandru. They’re fairly expensive (about 15g for a full set) but they turn the 2 second stun into a 1.75 second stun, and there is a cheap food that decreases stun duration by 36%, turning the stun into a .8 second stun. However, if the runes are too expensive, or don’t go with your build, you can always just use a stunbreak if you have fast enough reflexes. Basically the idea is to make the thief waste his initiative trying to finish you, leaving him vulnerable. Thieves guild is a very strong elite, but you can pretty easily kite them and mitigate most of their damage, just don’t focus on them and forget about the real thief (which is kind of the point of the skill). Just anticipate and pay attention to everything around you. It’s like killing a dolyak with guards: kill the dolyak and the guards despawn. So do your best to kite the thieves and pay attention so that you don’t get hit by the thief and it shouldn’t result in an insta-win. Don’t get me wrong, it will still be tough, but that’s the point of an elite. Oh, and as soon as you see the thieves guild pop, dodge, because one thief will use a pull, and a good thief will use that to his advantage for positioning. Positioning is key for a thief, so mess that up and you have the advantage. If you have any questions, or want some practice, feel free to message me in-game (if you’re on NA) and I’ll help you out. I’ve helped train multiple people in my guild to fight thieves, so I would definitely be up to helping you too. And this goes to anyone out there too. If you’re on NA and would like some training, message me and we can set up a time.

If you stand inside BP any good DP thief will simply back stab you or walk into the circle and HS out of it without hitting you. Do not get confused. There is no beating a good thief one on one its draw or win for the thief. Any good roamer is going to carry shadowstep and a security blanket and no class and I mean no class is going to close the gap on that in both directions other than another thief. I agree in large scale setting most thief builds are lackluster at best. That being do not confuse someone saying there is no counter for thief with a complaint. While some class do have enough CC and burst to shut down an unsuspecting thief no class can shut down a thief who is aware of his environment and opponent.

I do agree the whines get insane but do not forget most of us play many classes. Most of us are not new to thief. Most of what a thief can do is not OP. That being said the main issue with D/P is the insane access to blinds. Even before the buff to them I said this got flamed by thieves saying it was the stealth. At the end of the day thief is roaming class that is decent in a melee duel. It is susceptible to strong ranged burst (engineer is capable of this) and has huge risk when using sets like DD. The main issue for many players is not that thief burst but its capability to say on target and how often it can burst.

Edit:

It should also be said we have our trouble classes also. Guardian and necros atm can have a strong advantage vs us. Ele can have enough mobility and burst (scepter that is) to do good things 1v1. Static discharge with tool kit engi can eat our full bar in a matter of seconds (though it is a one shot can’t repeat type of burst). Lets not even mention HgH. Mesmers can do well but will often lose or draw vs an experienced thief.

Craig.2403:

Very well said. I also want to point out that typically a thief has an in-depth knowledge of every class in the game, because he has to know what to expect in order to survive. .

This is an unfair comparison, especially in WvW. If you run a zerker build then, like everyone else, you will need to learn what skills are dangerous. While you may not have as much health to absorb a dangerous hit, stealth also lets you reset the battle at any point and take a breather.

If you don’t run a zerker build it’s even easier – not only are you tanky enough to make mistakes, you can keep messing up terribly, reset with stealth, and come back for another try.

I have absolutely no idea what rangers, necros or non-greatsword warriors do (have the other four classes at 80), and still fight them just fine. In fact, they are usually a joke to take down (not sure about post-patch Necro) with the D/P build.

Edit If you ask me, the issue is only in WvW, where Hidden Killer + >100% crit damage lets you build tanky and still output consistent high damage through the guaranteed crits. My Thief has 1600 toughness and still hits 7k backstabs every 4 seconds.

Travlane.5948:

Dagraan.2854:

Incurafy.6329:

Craig.2403:

Alex.6940:

Do damage numbers appear in your combat log if you hit someone in stealth?

No, but if it is a chain attack, you will notice the chain progress. Also, if the skill has a visual effect that takes place on the target (most noticeable is ranger’s entangle, which leaves binding roots on the target) it will appear where the thief is, letting you know where the thief was when that skill hit the thief.

99.9999% sure that they do show up in the combat log.

hits don’t show up in the combat log when you hit a stealthed enemy, iv’e tried it before when trying to fight some perma stealth thief, and no standing in the blind field will not get you hit by their heartseeker, especially if they have the speed signet and the trait to give 50% more speed in stealth and since heartseeker is a leap its affected by it.
they’ll just jump right past you and not to mention the mobility they have means you’ll need another theif just to have a chance to get to the blind field in time, and even if he does hit you all he has to do is evade and pop shadow refuge or the heartseeker spam over the blind field again.

i have 6 accounts including a thief and i have never, ever hit something mid leap with the heartseeker, and the middle of the blind field is “mid leap”

when its said you hit somebody mid leap…. i think its when you jump from point a to point b there is a guy right between them even tho you jump past him you still hit him as you land on point b. this is quite common and happens to me all the time. if i stand in BPS you will break their invis withing 2.5 seconds guaranteed unless they use a heal/utility. also swing wildly inside of it :P

It doesn’t hit. I have played d/p enough to tell you can fairly easily avoid hitting someone who stands in the field, even if it slighlty slows down the stealth chaining process. And I’m not a very good d/p thief. Anyway, often I just backstab those who stand in the blind field.

I play a thief and a warrior. You are making a fool of yourself saying warriors have better survivability.

You make it sound easy to counter thieves. But now ignore complaints about kittened thieves and start talking about thieves with half a brain.

I have no problem with thief stealth, or damage. Just the fact that half a good thief can always reset when losing.. that’s a class carrying the player.

solarisnox.8521:

I actually want to thank you guys, Craig and Jakare…I still feel that stealth is an insanely overpowered ability…and that larcenous strike is even more insanely overpowered…BUT…I am taking your posts to heart, and will start leveling my thief, and keeping these points in mind the next time I fight one in wvw…assuming I catch one alone…they seem to run in packs now, and then again there is always the Thieves Guild elite ability…actually, how would you suggest one counter that?
I’ve beaten a few thieves in wvw, (less than 1% of the total I’ve fought against), and if they don’t have thieves guild I can sometimes win, assuming they don’t kill me outright with basilisk venom…but if they do have thieves guild, it’s pretty much game over.

so, while I greatly appreciate your posts on how to counter thieves, how would you suggest countering these two aspects? basilisk venom and theives guild?

Basilisk venom was made into a basic ‘stun’, so any stun breaker will break it. You just have to be quick. Thieves will use basilisk venom to either stop you running away or as an opener to make sure their next attacks connects. Usually it’s used as an opener. It takes about 1-2 secs to activate, there’s an animation of raising one hand up, so it should be easy to spot if the thief is running at you. However good thieves will try to activate it in stealth to hide the animation. You should also pay attention to their list of boons, it will show up as a green and black symbol next to their name when it’s activated. It lasts only one hit, but will stay activated for around 30 secs if they haven’t landed a hit on you yet.

Thieves guild spawns two thief NPCs, one will use dual pistol ranged attacks with blinds, and the other will use dagger/dagger melee attacks and has a scorpion wire pull. The pull can be deadly as it will be an interrupt and a knockdown, and you’ll be in range of the players attacks. The best way to deal with this skill is to stay out of range. Outside of 900 range none of their attacks will land. Also the NPC thieves will follow the player around, so it can be useful to pay attention to where they are if the player has stealthed, they will always be next to or close to the player.

If you can’t get out of close combat, try and use any projectile reflect/absorb skills that you have. The skill has a long cool down, something like 240 secs, and the NPC thieves will despawn after about 45-60 seconds, or if you kill them, similar to Mesmer clones. They don’t have much health.

First, basi venom is 2 seconds, not 3. Second, what class is your main, and what type of build do you run? For basi venom I would suggest running runes of melandru. They’re fairly expensive (about 15g for a full set) but they turn the 2 second stun into a 1.75 second stun, and there is a cheap food that decreases stun duration by 36%, turning the stun into a .8 second stun. However, if the runes are too expensive, or don’t go with your build, you can always just use a stunbreak if you have fast enough reflexes. Basically the idea is to make the thief waste his initiative trying to finish you, leaving him vulnerable. Thieves guild is a very strong elite, but you can pretty easily kite them and mitigate most of their damage, just don’t focus on them and forget about the real thief (which is kind of the point of the skill). Just anticipate and pay attention to everything around you. It’s like killing a dolyak with guards: kill the dolyak and the guards despawn. So do your best to kite the thieves and pay attention so that you don’t get hit by the thief and it shouldn’t result in an insta-win. Don’t get me wrong, it will still be tough, but that’s the point of an elite. Oh, and as soon as you see the thieves guild pop, dodge, because one thief will use a pull, and a good thief will use that to his advantage for positioning. Positioning is key for a thief, so mess that up and you have the advantage. If you have any questions, or want some practice, feel free to message me in-game (if you’re on NA) and I’ll help you out. I’ve helped train multiple people in my guild to fight thieves, so I would definitely be up to helping you too. And this goes to anyone out there too. If you’re on NA and would like some training, message me and we can set up a time.

Hey Nether, basi venom is actually only 1.5 sec! Other than that you have some really solid advice. In my opinion the easiest way to counter basilisk venom is to just run a stunbreak. When im on my thief I use shadow step, but ideally your stun break would be an instant cast. When you get hit by BV the thief is either trying to prevent you from using a certain skill (which is hard to do with the cast time on BV) or more likely they are trying to use a dps burst on you. If youre hit by BV the thief has probably hit you with either cloak and dagger, or they backstabbed you. Either way, you are going to want to stunbreak, dodge, use your heal if you need to, and immediately attack the thief to apply some pressure.

Easiest way to face roll a thief with BV? If they are using it in their initial opener in wvw you will probably see them running at you with the icon for BV where their buffs and boons would be shown under their name. I love to run straight at the thief and when i get into the range of their steal i dodge roll towards them. They will use steal + cloak and dagger or steal + heartseeker combo and miss wasting their elite and initiative (the really bad ones will waste their heal when they get freaked out here). Then you just quickly kill the thief.

I agree with Netherdark on the thieves guild though. Its going to be a massive boost of dps, control, and blinds to the thief. There aren’t a whole lot of options to counter it. The two best ones, in my opinion, are to either 1) instantly burst down the enemy thief after the initial pull from the thieves guild or 2) run from the thief until his elite is back on cooldown (trying to get to a tower, supply camp, or even sentry would work wonders). I rarely use thieves guild in a 1v1. Its a lot like moa or supply drop.. a little too easy in a 1v1.

~Rand X Al Thor

Just make it so they appear after any attack during stealth. Boom, problem solved, bad thieves super suck now, good thieves are still good.

I have a thief, I play said thief, I think it’s stupid that I get free chances at my backstabs as even if they are evaded or blocked. Makes 0 sense.