Guild Wars 2

Kaishina.6584:

Why ??? Just why 1200 range weapon ?? If ranger gets 2500 range u will cry for 3000 range weapon cause thats how you are. Actually dual handed katana is the way to go

Because we don’t have a 1200 range option, unlike everyone else.
Also, Rangers got 1500 range… Don’t see me asking for that though as it’s clearly ment as a Ranger-only thing. Thief shouldn’t be OP, I don’t even want it to be. I love the challenge that the Thief class has to offer, but it should have a fair shot.

Some people actually try to keep balance in mind when making suggestions.
Maybe you should keep that in mind before making assumptions…

Hannibal.5739:

how about adding sais & shurikens

No need to implement new weapons- just make a shuriken-shaped focus skin and be done with this :P
(I hope they won’t read this thread, because it’s so like Anet to give us the worst suggestion ever made and say we asked for it lol)
Though i’d like to get it someday… any skill that uses shuriken/katana/any-ninja-stuff is welcome

That’s funny…I already quit thief.

Not because they got staff, or didn’t get rifle…but because of how little the devs and the company cares about the class.

martin.1653:

Witch-hunter – rifle or crossbow oriented with a touch of magic. Basically make Van Helsing.

Psst. You might like this.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Suggestion-WIP-The-Deadeye-ES-Suggestion/first#post5872957

1200 range on a weapon would be nice for WvW to actually defend against incoming sieges when on walls and other similar terrain. I get the intention of not wanting a 1200-range 360noscope1337ski11zheadshot sniping burst build, though. That’s just OP and I hope we see some tweaks made to GF, TS, and CoR soon to accommodate for this.

People always want more things =P. I certainly wouldn’t QUIT. I can definitely see the flavor. I personally feel that ranger is a better fit for rifle, but hey, why not both?

“Would you quit if Thief don’t get rifle next?”

Given how I play, I don’t think it’s possible.

why the hell would any one 1 want a kitteng rifel? its bad enough seeing p/p thieves spamming #3. i would rather them fix the game then anything else

There is nothing wrong with spamming one skill, especially since this profession was designed for it.

yolo swaggins.2570:

There is nothing wrong with spamming one skill, especially since this profession was designed for it.

I think their intent was to have players make “skillful” skill combos pairing and matching this skill with that skill and so on… but boy were they wrong with their implementation.

Zero Day.2594:

yolo swaggins.2570:

There is nothing wrong with spamming one skill, especially since this profession was designed for it.

I think their intent was to have players make “skillful” skill combos pairing and matching this skill with that skill and so on… but boy were they wrong with their implementation.

If they wanted that, there would be a mechanic which would reward thieves with bonuses for chaining different skills in succession.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Zero Day.2594:

yolo swaggins.2570:

There is nothing wrong with spamming one skill, especially since this profession was designed for it.

I think their intent was to have players make “skillful” skill combos pairing and matching this skill with that skill and so on… but boy were they wrong with their implementation.

If they wanted that, there would be a mechanic which would reward thieves with bonuses for chaining different skills in succession.

bull crap. spamming 1 skill over and over is just dumb as hell because it is too predicable and just, dumb.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Zero Day.2594:

yolo swaggins.2570:

There is nothing wrong with spamming one skill, especially since this profession was designed for it.

I think their intent was to have players make “skillful” skill combos pairing and matching this skill with that skill and so on… but boy were they wrong with their implementation.

If they wanted that, there would be a mechanic which would reward thieves with bonuses for chaining different skills in succession.

bull crap. spamming 1 skill over and over is just dumb as hell because it is too predicable and just, dumb.

But if it kills people then what is the point in hating it? lol

i dunno, but killing people that spam it is kinda sad. people are betetr then spamming #3

Apparently not many. Nor do many recognize just how busted some of the spamming can be.

Shadow Shot itself makes most fights absolutely trivial when just timed correctly.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the initiative mechanic because sometimes I really need that double/triple cast on Dancing Dagger or chain evades during channeled skills like Rapid Fire or the entirety of a shatter mesmer burst combo. Some of the skills are just overtuned/don’t match their costs, though.

3spam unload prior to its buffing was kind of necessary for P/P to work due to the damage being too low for bursting someone down and the rest of the kit really not being that great when at range to begin with. With P/P buffed heavy this isn’t as big a concern, but spamming it isn’t really punishable and is still better than not doing so due to flaws in the weapon set’s design.

The rifle could fulfill a niche for a > 900 range weapon. Shortbow used to offer this but got nerfed due to its amazing utility. In WvW, a 1200 range weapon is almost required for several purposes involving attacking some tower/keep archers and being able to apply hits and pressure in the current NA meta.

I really do suggest you look at my suggestion regarding the Deadeye. I think its weapon skills provide a lot of coverage on useful utility that doesn’t reward spamming so much as Unload or Shadow Shot.

Rifle is actually third on my list of wanted weapons, so no, I wouldn’t be at all bothered. I would like to see them buff up Shortbow a bit though, make it practical as an actual weapon and not just a Shadowstep tool.

Btw, for those hoping that we will get a rifle, if we do, I expect it to come with some pretty hefty penalties. That’s actually the benefit of the Elite Spec system, they can add, but also take away, and you have to take on those burdens if you want the benefits.

I can’t see them adding something that can shoot from 1200+ range for high damage out of Stealth, without also doing things like limiting movement so that you have to really post-up to use it.

I came up with a tentative rifle build at one point that I think would work, where basically you spent a lot of time Revealed, casting times were long on the burst damage attacks, and initiative cost was complicated.

Might sound nice for PvP, but completely useless in PvE.
Gonna camp here, to set up my shot that does the same dmg as 2 AA’s from other classes! LFG ads : No rifle thief.

Just stop. We need torch next. We could be decent Condi users, but we have NO burning.

Would be cool if they got rifle and a support/sniper skill on it meant for wvsw and other open ranged areas. Basically the rifles skills are all support based. Shooting enemies/friendlies to grant boons, buffs, debuffs, cc’s. Then they would have 1-2 damage skills, one being an EXTREMELY long range high damage burst shot that plants you inplace and takes 2-3x longer than the warrior rifle burst shot does. I can imagine going through WvsW and hearing a shot go off and the glass cannon next to me 1 second later goes THUMP, right into downed state. I look up to the cliff and see the thief with its rifle planted in the snow, packing up and getting the helk out of there. Just a thief with a rifle shooting enemies from afar like that is a cool concept imo.

Unstealthing or unveiling camoflauge after camping ontop of a hill/peak and then taking 8-10 seconds to line up a very high damage slug that can down a glass cannon with light armour from a very very long range is quite a cool concept. I can imagine going through wvsw, or whatever, and needing to look around me more often to make sure I’m not lined up for a sniper’s kill shot. I mean the shot could be a bit slower than other projectiles and have a very flashy animation once fired…..and maybe thiefs could be planted inplace and/or have all their skills put on cd after it fired. And maybe movement of a high enough degree (outside of actually dodging) could impede the damage done. I would like to see snipers in this game, nuff said. Then when the thief fires they have a half-measure where they can overheat their rifle and switch to their ult weapon like normal if they need to run or change location quickly. They won’t be sitting ducks when they are spotted/inrange of being attacked after the shot, but they will have combat inhibited by using the half-measure. Just a different way to play certain modes, keeping the game interesting, I don’t think thief really needs another all-rounder weapon.

Might sound nice for PvP, but completely useless in PvE.

Depends on how they design it. The way I see a functional rifle working, it would have two ways to use it, 1. a highly bursty style that is well suited to PvP, where you destroy a target in a few seconds and then run, and 2. a sustainable long range style that is not particularly useful in PvP (since they will just rush and crush you), but would allow Thieves to participate in PvE situations where you need to stay at 1200 range to not die a lot.

Thieves can do this better than anyone else since we use Initiative, and can just spam a single ability to get what we need going. The way I see it, make one really good bursty ability, one really good sustained DPS ability, and then three abilities that can help to support either playstyle with debuffing and mobility.

Even if they find that it would be two overpowered to offer both at once, that’s fixable too, by using Traits. Since the Elite system would mean that you’d have to choose the Elite traitline, and the current nature of the trait system means that you’re stuck with one of the three choices in a vertical row, and only one of those choices, they can easily let you specialize.

Just make it so that the rifle is a pretty lame weapon across the board if you have no traits, then have one Adept trait that strongly buffs the “bursty sniper shot” attack(s) so that it is a serious threat, a second adept trait that makes the “repeat fire” attack much more deadly, and then the third trait would be one that has nothing to do with the rifle and buffs up other weapons, for people that like whatever else the Sniper has to offer but don’t intend to use the rifle for whatever reason. So PvP snipers would choose A, PvE snipers would mostly choose B, and snipers that wanted to go rifleless would choose C.

Again, I highly suggest people look into my suggestion. A burst/DPS rifle-based sniper spec doesn’t work by design and would create anti-fun gameplay situations.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Suggestion-WIP-The-Deadeye-ES-Suggestion/first#post5872957

Again, I highly suggest people look into my suggestion. A burst/DPS rifle-based sniper spec doesn’t work by design and would create anti-fun gameplay situations.

Your post does not give a good explanation of the point of the spec. If you intend it to be some sort of supporty/CC spec then we have no need for that, we have Short Bow and Pistol already. What we need is a 1200+ range DPS spec so that we can engage in content that is too risky to melee.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, I highly suggest people look into my suggestion. A burst/DPS rifle-based sniper spec doesn’t work by design and would create anti-fun gameplay situations.

Your post does not give a good explanation of the point of the spec. If you intend it to be some sort of supporty/CC spec then we have no need for that, we have Short Bow and Pistol already. What we need is a 1200+ range DPS spec so that we can engage in content that is too risky to melee.

Many people already pointed out that it would be a bad idea to give a profession, which has that amount of movement, a dps range weapon.

And pistol or shortbow doesn’t give support at all except the blast finisher of shortbow. I think a ranged support weapon for thief could be fun, but I would prefer it to be a longbow instead of a rifle.

Many people already pointed out that it would be a bad idea to give a profession, which has that amount of movement, a dps range weapon.

Bad idea or not, it’s necessary, not optional.

Whenever people dream up a new class, sure, vaguely consider how it might be used in PvP scenarios, but also consider “how will this class be essential to have around in a ‘zerg on world boss’ scenario?” The one area Thieves are sorely lacking at this point is in being able to drop damage on enemies that will punish you severely for getting too close. It’s either give us 1200 range, or make us totally immune to those attacks like Range pets.

And pistol or shortbow doesn’t give support at all except the blast finisher of shortbow.

If you mean “buffing other players,” then that’s true, but I don’t see why Thieves should have support abilities in the first place. They should be about hurting the enemy, not buffing allies. But that aside, the SB toolkit includes cripple, blind, and poison (but rather pathetic DPS), and the pistol toolkit includes plenty of blind, stun, and mobility, depending on how you use it.

I also don’t want to see the Thieves getting a long bow, SB is enough bow for us, but then I’m not a huge fan of rifle either, I want to see Focus and OH Sword added first.

Ohoni.6057:

Bad idea or not, it’s necessary, not optional.

Whenever people dream up a new class, sure, vaguely consider how it might be used in PvP scenarios, but also consider “how will this class be essential to have around in a ‘zerg on world boss’ scenario?” The one area Thieves are sorely lacking at this point is in being able to drop damage on enemies that will punish you severely for getting too close. It’s either give us 1200 range, or make us totally immune to those attacks like Range pets.

Giving thief 1200 range is necessary, there you got a point. But is it necessary for this weapon to be a dps monster? No, it isn’t. There is no rule that says every profession must be able to do horrible dps on 1200 range or further. Thief just has too much mobility for this.

If thief had something like that, they would actually be able to do something at 1200 range. That’s enough.

Giving thief 1200 range is necessary, there you got a point. But is it necessary for this weapon to be a dps monster? No, it isn’t.

There’s absolutely no point to letting Thieves shoot from 1200 range if they can’t deal meaningful damage at that range. I’m not saying that they need to do the absolute most DPS at that distance, but they should at least be comparable to other classes, in the top 75% DPS of weapons at 900-1200 range.

I think the solution to this is not to prevent Thieves from having this range, but to reduce their mobility if they get it. Remember, this is an elite spec, both the traitlines and the weapon skills themselves can come with built in nerfs. Give the better abilities self-rooting casting times, built in Revealed, perhaps even self-cripples if absolutely necessary, so that they can be very useful in fights where you’re mostly just standing there and burning, but don’t allow you to remain permanently at max distance if you’re being chased while also dealing peak damage.

Honestly though I don’t see it as too big a deal. I mean you can already stay at 600-900 range using Pistols or SB, what difference would staying at 1200 range make in a PvP fight? Either way you’re out of melee range and mostly outside of skirmish range.

Ohoni.6057:

There’s absolutely no point to letting Thieves shoot from 1200 range if they can’t deal meaningful damage at that range. I’m not saying that they need to do the absolute most DPS at that distance, but they should at least be comparable to other classes, in the top 75% DPS of weapons at 900-1200 range.

As an example look at druid staff. It has 1200 range and is all about healing, the damage is really low. Same could be for a thief, maybe not healing but another form of support.

I don’t think something like that would be bad. Not all playstyles should be about raw dps, I would like to see other roles given to the thief.

As an example look at druid staff. It has 1200 range and is all about healing, the damage is really low.

Well yes, but that works because the Ranger already has Longbow, plenty of ranged damage at 1200+ range. Also, this effect is healing, which is a very useful skill. If the Ranger lacked Longbow or anything like it, you can bet they would be very upset at getting the Druid Staff before getting a proper stand-off DPS Rifle or LB spec.

I don’t think a 1200 range pure-support Thief is something anyone actually wants, and there’s no CC that would be worth low DPS in a raid/worldboss situation, since most of it is completely useless most of the time aside from breakbars, and everyoen has plenty of options there. The rifle should definitely have 1-2 good CC options, but it needs high damage too.

Again, the Thief has a gap.

That gap is a way to deal decent DPS without getting closer than 1200 range from a target.

Whatever happens, that hole needs to be filled. Any Rifle that does does not effectively resolve that gap is a failure on arrival. Whatever else they do, however else they need to balance it for PvP, it has to be balanced around that unalterable fact, “the Rifle will do solid DPS at 1200+ range, what else might happen to make that work?”

why do you guys think we need a 1200 rnged weapon? if we didnt have the shadow steps then may be i would agree, but we have so many gap closes i don’t understand why you guys feel that we “need” 1200 ranged weapon. and srly, 300 isnt all that is it.

why do you guys think we need a 1200 rnged weapon? if we didnt have the shadow steps then may be i would agree, but we have so many gap closes i don’t understand why you guys feel that we “need” 1200 ranged weapon. and srly, 300 isnt all that is it.

Because if the mob is 1200 range away, and you shadowstep to him, then suddenly he’s 0 range away, and his PBAoEs kill you. What’s so difficult to understand about that? A 1200 range weapon allows you to hit the opponent, and still be at 1200 range. I thought that was obvious.

lol, that is a silly reply. the only time i have seen 100/0 death is from DH traps and everyone know not to shadow step to them. further more, we have 900 range weapons, why would you shadow step all the way to 0 range and use a ranged weapon? if you really are in a rush to get in range then dodge closer ? i dunno I just think people are asking for way too much lately.

lol, that is a silly reply. the only time i have seen 100/0 death is from DH traps and everyone know not to shadow step to them.

The way you talk, you seem to be thinking of PvP. I couldn’t care less about PvP, nor could most of the people that play this game. A solid 1200 range option is needed for PvE content, where large numbers of enemies have “get within 900 rang of me and you’ll be eating those teeth” effects.

further more, we have 900 range weapons, why would you shadow step all the way to 0 range and use a ranged weapon? if you really are in a rush to get in range then dodge closer ? i dunno I just think people are asking for way too much lately.

I don’t want to get closer, you were the one saying I had that option available. I want to get farther from my opponent, while still being able to damage it.

you only get “eatin” if you just stand still and not moving your camera around. everyone dies in pve, not because they do not have 1200 ranged weapons, its because Hot mobs hurts like hell (example them big flying dragons that do that fire in a line that does 15k) the snipers charged shot hurts like hell. being spawned on as well can kill you. havning a 1200 range weapon will not save you, i tried this on my warrior using long bow and ele on staff.

you only get “eatin” if you just stand still and not moving your camera around. everyone dies in pve, not because they do not have 1200 ranged weapons, its because Hot mobs hurts like hell

There’s some of that too, obviously, but there are almost no mobs in the game that are more dangerous at standoff range than they are in melee (can’t think of any), and plenty of mobs that are downright deadly in melee range, so being at 1200 range is definitely the place to be at least some of the time, and Thieves don’t have that option. They should have that option.

Ohoni.6057:

There’s some of that too, obviously, but there are almost no mobs in the game that are more dangerous at standoff range than they are in melee (can’t think of any), and plenty of mobs that are downright deadly in melee range, so being at 1200 range is definitely the place to be at least some of the time, and Thieves don’t have that option. They should have that option.

To be fair: I can’t remember any PvE enemy 900 range wouldn’t be enough to stay away from the “teeth”. Are you able to tell me an example? I run at 900 range most of the time by myself and never felt it would be necessary to stay away even further …

Ohoni.6057:

Again, I highly suggest people look into my suggestion. A burst/DPS rifle-based sniper spec doesn’t work by design and would create anti-fun gameplay situations.

Your post does not give a good explanation of the point of the spec. If you intend it to be some sort of supporty/CC spec then we have no need for that, we have Short Bow and Pistol already. What we need is a 1200+ range DPS spec so that we can engage in content that is too risky to melee.

I don’t think you actually read the spec, nor did most people.

Stygian Hunter form allows for the ranged DPS desired, innate durability, high movement speed, and better evasion, but the class does not feature stealth-burst sniping-instant-downs like a lot of people seem to want from 1200 range. The rifle itself is a support weapon used for massive interruption and control conditions application.

I’ll update the original thread later with design intent, but the focus on the Revealed debuff enabling the damage is to prevent us with stealth-killshot effects causing people to just flop over. It’s unfair and quite frankly, unfun.

I would argue that 6 chained dazes is pretty strong at 1200 range for sPvP. That takes +1 to a new level and gives the thief a mesmer-like support quality but still without the innate bunkering/point control ability mesmers have from invulns. Good use of shadowstep could let the thief effectively play in two “locations” near points at once.

There’s also huge synergy here with condition specs for getting torment on interruption, potentially quickly loading 18-21 stacks of torment or more on your foe, and getting devastating poison DPS from the rifle alone on point, further accentuated with some degree of point control with melee-range fear and an extra dodge.

For WvW, you become a stability-stripping, ranged-DPS, AOE-healing backline from Stygian Hunter form, with built-in counter-periphery on the rifle, or on an alternate weapon set which the class can already excel with.

The spec gives the thief definitive places in situations it currently has no role in without just incorporating more stat inflation or a stealth-snipe instant-kill that wouldn’t be enjoyable to play. Additionally, the spec was designed to cover necessary utility roles provided in various trait lines to be able to replace but also work exceedingly well with any build, gaining the capacity to replace any trait line from Shadow Arts to Trickery, but also be able to incorporate both.

As far as 900 range vs 1200; there’s a massive difference, particularly when projectile physics are involved. The pistols do not gain from physics, but Ranger longbow, DH lowbow, Mesmer GS, warrior longbow (largely the devastating ranged builds) all do. Good players at these classes will absolutely show you the difference between 900 and 1200 range (in the case of the above, it’s actually 1500-1800) given the opportunity. 1200 without physics-based projectiles is in my opinion a fair compensation, on the basis that we have enough mobility effects to get us within that proximity fairly easily. The stickiness is a completely different subject, but again, is why I made Stygian Hunter and Skirmish the way I did.

Kodama.6453:

Ohoni.6057:

Again, I highly suggest people look into my suggestion. A burst/DPS rifle-based sniper spec doesn’t work by design and would create anti-fun gameplay situations.

Your post does not give a good explanation of the point of the spec. If you intend it to be some sort of supporty/CC spec then we have no need for that, we have Short Bow and Pistol already. What we need is a 1200+ range DPS spec so that we can engage in content that is too risky to melee.

Many people already pointed out that it would be a bad idea to give a profession, which has that amount of movement, a dps range weapon.

If we’ll ever see second set of elite specs then I’m pretty sure you’ll be able to pick just one. Too many problems would come if people would take 2 and a lot of complications could happen.
Without Daredevil line and Dash, thief isn’t THAT mobile. And keep in mind that to stay mobile thief needs to sacrifice utility. Not to mention there is no reliable source of swiftness. Steal needs to be traited and swiftness is short duration. Shortbow can be used as second weapon, but then again SB is used mostly for running away. And since thief can be easily one-shot with all this recent power creep, there is absolutely nothing wrong in making/keeping it most mobile class in game.

DPS is fine on ranged weapons. Burst isn’t, particularly when it involves high stealth uptime.

Give a GF berserker stealth and you’d be seeing the same problem. It’s also why power shatter chrono is more deadly than the thief for 1v1. Burst means way more in the PvP formats than DPS when it comes down to dealing damage, and it’s this that needs to be distinguished when arguing class balance. The thief has some of the best single-target DPS in the game, but it offers only comparable burst and lower sustain than most other classes. For this reason it can’t hold its own well enough in sPvP and can’t front-line WvW blobs, but its excels at periphery in WvW; it can’t do enough in sPvP because of the way stats are allocated and capped in the way the thief’s damage output and other class’ durability scale.

I don’t think you actually read the spec, nor did most people.

Yes, i said as much. I do not have the time to engage with it, and you did not provide a "TL;DR in your initial post. Don’t expect other people to care about your pet project as much as you do, and be considerate of their time.

That aside, I’m not a fan of the Thief getting a “beast mode” alternate form, particularly one that isn’t especially “thiefy.” When I think Stygian Hunter" I think “Ranger alt form,” or even “Necro alt form” before Thief.

I would argue that 6 chained dazes is pretty strong at 1200 range for sPvP.

And I would argue that who cares about sPvP? Thieves need a rifle for PvE enemies that hit too hard in melee range.

If we’ll ever see second set of elite specs then I’m pretty sure you’ll be able to pick just one. Too many problems would come if people would take 2 and a lot of complications could happen.
Without Daredevil line and Dash, thief isn’t THAT mobile.

Yes, and also keep in mind that the Thief Rifle spec, or the weapon itself, can always come with built-in restrictions that would further reduce base mobility. They can make the spec whatever they need it to be.

One other thing that I think should definitely be a factor if Thieves get Rifle would be that old “more damage at max range” element that Rangers and Mesmers have. If you want to do competitive DPS with a Thief Rifle then you not only need to be within 1200 range, but also over 900 range, meaning that if you’re dealing with enemies that will close to melee with you, then you can’t use that attack at its best, even if you can kite them into the 400-600 range effectively. Throw in a little self-rooting or self-crippling and they could make a build that is very effective for alpha strikes and for sustained damage against fixed targets, but not in the slightest overpowered in a 1v1 situation.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t think you actually read the spec, nor did most people.

Yes, i said as much. I do not have the time to engage with it, and you did not provide a "TL;DR in your initial post. Don’t expect other people to care about your pet project as much as you do, and be considerate of their time.

That aside, I’m not a fan of the Thief getting a “beast mode” alternate form, particularly one that isn’t especially “thiefy.” When I think Stygian Hunter" I think “Ranger alt form,” or even “Necro alt form” before Thief.

I would argue that 6 chained dazes is pretty strong at 1200 range for sPvP.

And I would argue that who cares about sPvP? Thieves need a rifle for PvE enemies that hit too hard in melee range.

If we’ll ever see second set of elite specs then I’m pretty sure you’ll be able to pick just one. Too many problems would come if people would take 2 and a lot of complications could happen.
Without Daredevil line and Dash, thief isn’t THAT mobile.

Yes, and also keep in mind that the Thief Rifle spec, or the weapon itself, can always come with built-in restrictions that would further reduce base mobility. They can make the spec whatever they need it to be.

One other thing that I think should definitely be a factor if Thieves get Rifle would be that old “more damage at max range” element that Rangers and Mesmers have. If you want to do competitive DPS with a Thief Rifle then you not only need to be within 1200 range, but also over 900 range, meaning that if you’re dealing with enemies that will close to melee with you, then you can’t use that attack at its best, even if you can kite them into the 400-600 range effectively. Throw in a little self-rooting or self-crippling and they could make a build that is very effective for alpha strikes and for sustained damage against fixed targets, but not in the slightest overpowered in a 1v1 situation.

The game is balanced around sPvP. That’s a fact, that’s the truth, and that’s the premise for all decisions made unless people start not playing the game at all or something is definitely not working as intended. As far as balancing goes, ANet’s stance really does not indicate much of an interest in how the PvE tiers are.

There is no monster in this game that is objectively too dangerous for the thief to melee or use P/P/shortbow for. We have a plethora of evades, now a block-all-ranged-attacks skill on a very short cooldown, and Shadowstep. Actually, P/P hits like a truck and would probably out-damage the rifle unless they just made the right straight up overpowered.

PvE is doable by anything given the skill. What you’re asking for is easy-mode pewpew with competitive DPS to melee alternatives. This will literally never happen in the competitive PvE environment, and frankly, the number of players who actually care about high-end PvE is so miniscule that if Anet actually catered to them, we’d have a horrible state of game balance and thieves would not even be as strong in PvE as they are, because our damage would need to get nerfed or others buffed; in which case our utility suffers for pug runs which is what the majority of players pay attention to.

Fun fact, six chained interrupts and permanent 25 vuln as I mentioned in my specialization on no cooldown via the initiative system would absolutely destroy break bars to the point where the rifle would be an amazing weapon for high-end PvE as a secondary for damage ramping. Stacking modifiers and group utility always takes precedence and is why Water Spirit + Glyph of Empowerment Druid is so heavily used. Oh wait, you never read my proposal and are making claims about how it wouldn’t be functional for group PvE. The irony.

Also of note, ranged DPS scaling with distance doesn’t work in high-end PvE. The reason that longbow ranger was hated on so much for dungeons wasn’t because it had poor damage but because it missed out on all of the utility gained from being bunched up together for combo fields, boons, buffs, and other effects. This hasn’t changed, so giving the thief a DPS weapon at range will not help the thief in PvE and it will not help the thief in PvP aside from making people cry more about the damage the profession does from relative safety (stealth) and high mobility. Again, your understanding of PvE seems way off the mark, and rangers were still used in competitive PvE prior to HoT because Water Spirit and Spotter provided huge damage bonuses, and these bonuses would not be active if the ranger was using a longbow, thus, the ranger went S/D or S/A until sinister gear came out and burning got buffed like crazy to let the condi variant take over (still building all utility for water spirit/spotter) despite taking personal damage losses.

If you think you’re going to kite anything in this game while being under any effects except super speed you’re delusional. I don’t care how far away you attack; you’re being caught, and you’re being caught fast. A D/P thief can engage easily from 3k+ and stay stuck on anything. A warrior can do similarly, as can a DH, scrapper, ele, and ranger. Oh wait, I gave Stygian Hunter form a lot of Super Speed access and mobility, kind of like it was meant to be kiting when played optimally and build for it. It’s kind of like this spec has these measures built-in and again because you’re refusing to read the details you’re having an argument for no logical reason by making the false-claim you’re right because you say you are and I am not because I disagree with some of what you have to say when basing the specialization on a few fundamental ideas.

This disagreement and capacity for building for different things is the entire foundation behind the specialization idea because it can achieve so much and offers so much diversity in play while “changing the way you play your character” [Colin Johanson on Elite Specializations].

Seriously. If your time is so valuable, read the thing you’re going to argue about before you waste your time arguing about nothing.

The game is balanced around sPvP. That’s a fact, that’s the truth, and that’s the premise for all decisions made unless people start not playing the game at all or something is definitely not working as intended. As far as balancing goes, ANet’s stance really does not indicate much of an interest in how the PvE tiers are.

Perhaps so, but I refuse to play along with their biases on that. I feel we as a community can do better than they have, and should always try to consider all aspects of the game, not just sPvP like ANet does.

PvE is doable by anything given the skill. What you’re asking for is easy-mode pewpew with competitive DPS to melee alternatives.

I’m asking for a standoff range option for Thieves that puts their sustained DPS at that distance on par with Ranger, Engi, Hunter, etc. If they aren’t going to deliver on that, then I would rather they not give the Thief Rifle/LB at all. I see no benefit to a ranged weapon that is used as another support tool.

This will literally never happen in the competitive PvE environment, and frankly, the number of players who actually care about high-end PvE is so miniscule that if Anet actually catered to them, we’d have a horrible state of game balance and thieves would not even be as strong in PvE as they are, because our damage would need to get nerfed or others buffed; in which case our utility suffers for pug runs which is what the majority of players pay attention to.

That’s nonsense, Thieves are by no means in demand for any PvE content except to provide Stealth or to venom share. Or DPS is not considered a necessary contribution.

Fun fact, six chained interrupts and permanent 25 vuln as I mentioned in my specialization on no cooldown via the initiative system would absolutely destroy break bars to the point where the rifle would be an amazing weapon for high-end PvE as a secondary for damage ramping. Stacking modifiers and group utility always takes precedence and is why Water Spirit + Glyph of Empowerment Druid is so heavily used. Oh wait, you never read my proposal and are making claims about how it wouldn’t be functional for group PvE. The irony.

Understand this, you don’t matter. Your proposal does not matter. If someone chooses to read and respond to your proposal directly, then they are doing you a favor, they do not owe it to you, they are not lessened by not having done so. I am not discussing your pet rifle build except in direct response to you bringing it up, and going by what data you present here. If I speak of a Thief Rifle build, it will be a general one that may or may not have any relevance to the one you came up with, because again, the one you came up with does not matter.

Also of note, ranged DPS scaling with distance doesn’t work in high-end PvE. The reason that longbow ranger was hated on so much for dungeons wasn’t because it had poor damage but because it missed out on all of the utility gained from being bunched up together for combo fields, boons, buffs, and other effects.

It really depends on the content. Some content the players all bunch up on top of the enemy, in which case a melee/skirmish weapon is best. In other cases, they bunch up at a distance from the enemy, in which case a standoff weapon is the best. In other cases, large groups do both. I’m not talking about things like Raids or dungeons, who cares about those? I’m talking about the actual content of the game, the open world events.

Ohoni.6057:

why do you guys think we need a 1200 rnged weapon? if we didnt have the shadow steps then may be i would agree, but we have so many gap closes i don’t understand why you guys feel that we “need” 1200 ranged weapon. and srly, 300 isnt all that is it.

Because if the mob is 1200 range away, and you shadowstep to him, then suddenly he’s 0 range away, and his PBAoEs kill you. What’s so difficult to understand about that? A 1200 range weapon allows you to hit the opponent, and still be at 1200 range. I thought that was obvious.

And thats why dps should always suck at 1200 range, because its easy and low risk.
And if the dps sucks, i dont think many theives would want the weapon.

Making 1200 range weapons have good dmg would require some big changes in enemy ai and enxounter design, such that it is not really safer, and if thats the case, i doubt many people would want it.

It might work, is if it required a lot more skill, perhaps with aimed shots.
Buuut since everyone hates shooting gallery not sure this would be loved

And thats why dps should always suck at 1200 range, because its easy and low risk.
And if the dps sucks, i dont think many theives would want the weapon.

As an option, at least. Almost every other class has a solid 1200 range option they can switch to. Clearly you’d want to have melee options as well, for when getting close works fine, but when getting close is too dangerous, or complicated, then having a 1200 range option is a good idea.

I am not talking about giving Thieves a 1200 range attack that is superior to any other class, I’m just talking about giving them one on par with the existing long range builds, some of which can even shoot from 1500 range. It would not require ANY changes to the game outside of “giving the Thieves a new weapon.”

I also do not see them adding skill shots to the game. If they added any complexity to how Thieves use long range then it would come in the form of channel times, after-shot penalties, Reveal juggling, etc.

Rememeber back when pewpew Ranger was considered one of the two weakest classes along with Necromancer? That’s what a 1200 range DPS thief would be but squishier and lacking a pet. So, no, I won’t quit if they don’t get rifle.

We already have 1200 range options. They’re called Steal and Shadowstep.

Rememeber back when pewpew Ranger was considered one of the two weakest classes along with Necromancer?

Yeah, but then they buffed up Longbow. We’d want the “post lessons learned” version.

We already have 1200 range options. They’re called Steal and Shadowstep.

Again, that allows you to move in from 1200 range, but then you’re stuck there. If they add the Rifle, I would expect to be able to attack from 1200 range continuously, without ever coming closer than that.

Play a different class then if you want an easy life playing pve (not that it’s hard in the first place) I doubt any theif has problems with shortbow or p/p, at least I have not heard of anyone complain in pve.

Play a different class then if you want an easy life playing pve (not that it’s hard in the first place) I doubt any theif has problems with shortbow or p/p, at least I have not heard of anyone complain in pve.

You are wrong.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Play a different class then if you want an easy life playing pve (not that it’s hard in the first place) I doubt any theif has problems with shortbow or p/p, at least I have not heard of anyone complain in pve.

How can anyone complain when they understand they have no choice? An-hero with a melee weapon in melee distance or an-hero with close-ranged weapons in melee distance.

What? Can you rephrase that please?