Guild Wars 2

babazhook.6805:

We got more then “one extra dodge bar” we got a rework of dodge itself wherein dodges can now be used to do direct damage or clean conditions inherently. It still needs a bit of work and I suggest allowing to change IN COMBAT between the dodges with dodges on a f3 -f5 toggle warranted but I do not look at it as “just one more dodge”.

We’ve been over this many times.
The dodges are a grandmaster trait. They’re not a part of our mechanics changes.
Our mechanic change is just a single extra dodge per fight, because we don’t even get an improved endurance regeneration rate.

Slowmelt.8547:

babazhook.6805:

We got more then “one extra dodge bar” we got a rework of dodge itself wherein dodges can now be used to do direct damage or clean conditions inherently. It still needs a bit of work and I suggest allowing to change IN COMBAT between the dodges with dodges on a f3 -f5 toggle warranted but I do not look at it as “just one more dodge”.

We’ve been over this many times.
The dodges are a grandmaster trait. They’re not a part of our mechanics changes.
Our mechanic change is just a single extra dodge per fight, because we don’t even get an improved endurance regeneration rate.

I suggested we put the dodge traits onto f3 f4 and F4 and then add new GM traits and it those new types of dodges we need to focus on. You obviously missed that in your rush to be condescending.

if you would READ the reveal it was defined as more endurance AND the change to the dodge rolls as our new mechanic. It is an error on the designers part to put those dodge roll abilities as part of the GM traits and from almost the very beginning I hvae suggested the f3 f4 f5 toggle with new GM traits and have been advocating for the same.

babazhook.6805:

Slowmelt.8547:

babazhook.6805:

We got more then “one extra dodge bar” we got a rework of dodge itself wherein dodges can now be used to do direct damage or clean conditions inherently. It still needs a bit of work and I suggest allowing to change IN COMBAT between the dodges with dodges on a f3 -f5 toggle warranted but I do not look at it as “just one more dodge”.

We’ve been over this many times.
The dodges are a grandmaster trait. They’re not a part of our mechanics changes.
Our mechanic change is just a single extra dodge per fight, because we don’t even get an improved endurance regeneration rate.

I suggested we put the dodge traits onto f3 f4 and F4 and then add new GM traits and it those new types of dodges we need to focus on. You obviously missed that in your rush to be condescending.

if you would READ the reveal it was defined as more endurance AND the change to the dodge rolls as our new mechanic. It is an error on the designers part to put those dodge roll abilities as part of the GM traits and from almost the very beginning I hvae suggested the f3 f4 f5 toggle with new GM traits and have been advocating for the same.

Error on their part or no, your exact words were

We got more then “one extra dodge bar” we got a rework of dodge itself

and that’s not really correct.
We got an extra dodge bar, and a set of mediocre traits.

Don’t softball this kind of thing, or we’ll never get it fixed.

Slowmelt.8547:

babazhook.6805:

Slowmelt.8547:

babazhook.6805:

We got more then “one extra dodge bar” we got a rework of dodge itself wherein dodges can now be used to do direct damage or clean conditions inherently. It still needs a bit of work and I suggest allowing to change IN COMBAT between the dodges with dodges on a f3 -f5 toggle warranted but I do not look at it as “just one more dodge”.

We’ve been over this many times.
The dodges are a grandmaster trait. They’re not a part of our mechanics changes.
Our mechanic change is just a single extra dodge per fight, because we don’t even get an improved endurance regeneration rate.

I suggested we put the dodge traits onto f3 f4 and F4 and then add new GM traits and it those new types of dodges we need to focus on. You obviously missed that in your rush to be condescending.

if you would READ the reveal it was defined as more endurance AND the change to the dodge rolls as our new mechanic. It is an error on the designers part to put those dodge roll abilities as part of the GM traits and from almost the very beginning I hvae suggested the f3 f4 f5 toggle with new GM traits and have been advocating for the same.

Error on their part or no, your exact words were

We got more then “one extra dodge bar” we got a rework of dodge itself

and that’s not really correct.
We got an extra dodge bar, and a set of mediocre traits.

Don’t softball this kind of thing, or we’ll never get it fixed.

Oh please. The powers that be are not going to decide to change something because YOU want to play hardball. You give yourself way to much credit. I will suggest however that the tendency to resort to hyperbole as you tend to do will and should be ignored.

The reveal states specifically that the extra endurance and the new dodges are part of the new mechanics. The issue is they decided to link the dodges to GM traits which is not going to work. Pull them away from the GM traits and the extra endurance bar and those three dodges is solid and that is what I am lobbying for.

As to the traits being mediocre outside the fact I think we are warranted three GM traits with new dodges integrated as part of the new mechanics , I am fine with all of the other traits with the fixes I have suggested.

This is from the reveal Note it specifically states the endurance bar is in addition to the new dodges as part of the new mechanics. It is not just one more endurance bar.

>>As it goes, thieves have a low health pool and a few different ways to supplement their survivability, notably shadowstepping, stealth, and evasion. With this specialization, we want to draw specific attention to evasion; you’ll have an extra endurance bar, bringing your total endurance to 150. Furthermore, your endurance abilities will be increasingly enhanced with the grandmaster trait line, where you’ll choose one of three different dodge-roll enhancement options:

As I see it there two ways of fixing this. As I suggested the dodges go on a F3 F4 F% toggle usable in combat and we get three new GM traits.

Another fix would be to put them on the toggle and keep them as GM traits usable in combat but boost the powers of each. Dash is close to being there. The other two a bit lacking.

If we can toggle between the three in Combat that in and of itself is a nice enhancement to make up for the loss of GM traits.

Tabootrinket.2631:

nopoet.2960:

New mechanics:
Guardian – Virtues that project physically in the world
Revenant – Channel a dragon! also a pbaoe that makes boons last longer
Warrior – Fire empowered berserk burst skills
Engineer – Mechanically assisted range finisher and reviver
Ranger – God like healing
Elementalist – Fire tornados, water bubble, lightning striking , earth quake riding madness
Mesmer – Time travel
Necromancer – Improved demonic state

Thief – dodges …..

rectification : Thief – dodge ….

Without the “s”. Because apparently our endurance still recharges at the same speed as other endurance bars.

+1

nopoet.2960:

New mechanics:
Guardian – Virtues that project physically in the world
Revenant – Channel a dragon! also a pbaoe that makes boons last longer
Warrior – Fire empowered berserk burst skills
Engineer – Mechanically assisted range finisher and reviver
Ranger – God like healing
Elementalist – Fire tornados, water bubble, lightning striking , earth quake riding madness
Mesmer – Time travel
Necromancer – Improved demonic state

Thief – dodges …..

Guardian – An F1 that will never get used because passive burning is too strong, an F2 that is a mobility skill on a 50 second cooldown, and an F3 that’s an anti-projectile wall on a 75 second cooldown…

Revenant – An entirely new class, but it’s profession mechanic is an F2 toggle that grants bonus boon duration or a situational short burst of boons. You can try to sugar-coat it by saying the profession mechanic is all the heal, utility, and elite skills too, but remember that the Revenant has LESS of those to pick from, and is locked into certain sets.

Warrior – A rage state that takes away some of the best weapon skills in the game for a multi-target or condi-focused one. Also, Rage skills are slightly different Physical skills.

Engineer – Class mechanic with its own HP bar. Yup… That’s worked out so well for another class that has a mechanic with an HP bar…

Ranger – Class mechanic is a fusion of necromancer’s shrouds, and the old Tome of Courage. It in no way improves upon the weaknesses of the Ranger’s current class mechanic. Also, healing is the worst form of mitigation.

Elementalist – 4 second channels are super-impractical, easily interrupted, and easily punished for abilities that are not worth the risk.

Mesmer – Finnicky F5 that can get you killed more often than it will save you.

Necromancer – Now you’re stuck to melee combat, making it far easier for your opponents to focus-fire you down.

Thief – An extra dodge, which is always useful, plus the added bar size makes it easier to keep from capping endurance, making it much more likely that when you need it, a dodge is ready.

Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, mates. Everyone has issues to pick with their class. Plus, we’ve only had one BWE with the DD, who is undergoing revision. Imagine your child asks you to help revise the first draft of an essay they wrote, and instead of pointing out where it could be better, you slapped the essay up on the fridge and wrote “KITTEN FAILURE!” on it. Daredevil has the potential to be something really fantastic; a spec that plays well with everything the Thief already has. A splash of survivability to add to any build. We just need to take a deep breath, enjoy the beta, and take constructive notes so our little elite specialization can grow up to be a healthy contributor to Tyria, rather than an angry footnote.

Shalien.9018:

Tabootrinket.2631:

nopoet.2960:

New mechanics:
Guardian – Virtues that project physically in the world
Revenant – Channel a dragon! also a pbaoe that makes boons last longer
Warrior – Fire empowered berserk burst skills
Engineer – Mechanically assisted range finisher and reviver
Ranger – God like healing
Elementalist – Fire tornados, water bubble, lightning striking , earth quake riding madness
Mesmer – Time travel
Necromancer – Improved demonic state

Thief – dodges …..

rectification : Thief – dodge ….

Without the “s”. Because apparently our endurance still recharges at the same speed as other endurance bars.

+1

I think boosting endurance gain as others suggested due to there being three bars warranted. Ie if it takes 20 seconds to recover all endurance without any other bonuses with two bars it should take 20 seconds with three.

The other idea I really liked was changing endurance thief so that the steal was of the other players endurance.

The scary thing is how much of an uphill battle it will be to get Karl to even consider something as simple as scaling the endurance regen, when that’s how it should have been in the first place. It seems hard to get any feedback through to him that isn’t small tweaks to his already preordained design.

Amante.8109:

The scary thing is how much of an uphill battle it will be to get Karl to even consider something as simple as scaling the endurance regen, when that’s how it should have been in the first place. It seems hard to get any feedback through to him that isn’t small tweaks to his already preordained design.

We definitely didn’t get the vocally-passionate dev. Let’s hope he’s the secretly-implements-what-the-community-actually-wants dev.

Shalien.9018:

Let’s hope he’s the secretly-implements-what-the-community-actually-wants dev.

/s ?

Shalien.9018:

We definitely didn’t get the vocally-passionate dev. Let’s hope he’s the secretly-implements-what-the-community-actually-wants dev.

No such luck. That’s Irenio, not Karl

Amante.8109:

The scary thing is how much of an uphill battle it will be to get Karl to even consider something as simple as scaling the endurance regen, when that’s how it should have been in the first place. It seems hard to get any feedback through to him that isn’t small tweaks to his already preordained design.

There have been a number of significant changes since the first release to the DD traits. Having followed Necromancer and Revenant boards and seeing how many changes they made in a much longer period of time I do not think one can conclude DD concerns not being addressed. Necro got a headstart of several months and only started getting near to where it should be and even now people feel it not enough.

As I stated previously, I do not expect this to be complete in time for HOT release.

The Staff needs a bit more (#4 in particular) but is close. The extra utilities are close. Traits need the most work. I am hopeful staff/utilities will be where they need to be by release and am expecting the traits to need more work after that.

babazhook.6805:

There have been a number of significant changes since the first release to the DD traits. Having followed Necromancer and Revenant boards and seeing how many changes they made in a much longer period of time I do not think one can conclude DD concerns not being addressed. Necro got a headstart of several months and only started getting near to where it should be and even now people feel it not enough.

There have been a few worthwhile changes in there (Immobilize break on Dash, quicker cast on Channeled Vigor, etc.) but not nearly enough for my taste. Beyond that, there’s a palpable lack of passion for Daredevil from the developmental side that really concerns me. I think a lot of people hit the nail on the head when they said that Daredevil sounded cool in theory, but has been very lacking in its execution.

In terms of comparing Thief’s elite spec to those of other professions, Engineer and Ranger seem like more meaningful comparisons. Both reveals came after Thief’s (Ranger in particular was obviously the last to be fleshed out internally), but they still look very fun to play due to the clear passion and excitement that went into designing them.

I just don’t get that same impression from Daredevil. In general, developing Thief seems to be a chore that no one is particularly interested in internally, and as long as that dynamic continues it will be hard for both Thief and Daredevil to fulfill their promise.

babazhook.6805:

As I stated previously, I do not expect this to be complete in time for HOT release.

I don’t either, but if I thought the changes that needed to be made were gonna happen in the month or two after release I’d be fine. Given how much of a struggle it is just to get the little things acknowledged, I’m not feeling especially optimistic.

Shalien.9018:

We definitely didn’t get the vocally-passionate dev. Let’s hope he’s the secretly-implements-what-the-community-actually-wants dev.

My honest opinion working with and training RPG game designers for more than a decade?

He’s probably the most thoughtful of the personalities we’re seeing. He’s trying to hit a sweet spot where his designs won’t have to be nerfed later (which is generally more damaging to retention than being buffed after a weak start). He’s a bit conservative compared to the others, but there’s morsels of steak under the sizzle.

That said he’s got to be looking at the relative reactions to the various Especs and wanting to have a ‘hero moment’ or two of his own delivering some nice, defensible adjustments that build enthusiasm for his flock before all decisions are locked in.

I hope that impulse to be daring shines through. Soon.

Just my take.

rogerwilko.6895:

Shalien.9018:

Let’s hope he’s the secretly-implements-what-the-community-actually-wants dev.

/s ?

The hoping part isn’t sarcasm… we should hope for the best.

Even though it seems obvious that we’re being ignored at this point, I hope Karl’s looking at our suggestions and isn’t responding because he has to talk to the UI team about adding the dodges as a selection box. Maybe he’s getting final approval on adjusting endurance regen to be % based from the balance team supervisor.

Who knows. We all obviously hope that he’ll make these changes or we wouldn’t be posting feedback or suggestions.

Hey several months back I suggested expeditous dodger needed to go to 4 seconds. Guess what? I think it was a reasonable request and I gave solid reasons as to why it should be at 4 seconds rather than 2 or 3. Now maybe no one read those posts at all and the decision to make it 4 seconds was arrived at independently but given some of the other ideas that have been expressed on these boards at one time or another were adopted, I kind of think they do take our ideas into consideration.

I DO think if we frame our arguments behind “everything in this traitline is garbage , the DEV just does not care and Thieves spend 80 percent of their time dead and are the weakest class in the game” then those types of posts should be ignored.

babazhook.6805:

Hey several months back I suggested expeditous dodger needed to go to 4 seconds. Guess what?

You should have suggested 2 seconds of superspeed instead.

My hope is still there believe me, I mean just like the Ice Bow nerf, maybe our hopes will eventually be palpable.
but for now war/mesmer/etc are looking better… for me personally.

I am not one of the ‘dedicated’ players who sticks to a profession ‘through thick and thin’ because they played it since launch or whatever. I just want to have the best experience possible in the 1-2 hours that I can GW2.

I am very disappointed by strange (IMO) decisions similar to: ’let’s buff P/P so that people will love it! +20% DMG!’. It just looks silly/clueless IMO.

So in staid of getting kittened at such decisions I will chill and move on.

I find a lot of these complaints to be wrong to the point where it is irrational.

The daredevil is not the new class mechanic. The daredevil is the sum total. It is the new weapon, new utilities, new traits, and new mechanical additions to the class. You have to take all of these into consideration, or else you are outright lying in your complaints.

Looking at everything, the Daredevil is solid. Sure the animations are unpolished, but think about what we do get. Look first at the staff:

*A weapon auto that stacks 14 vulnerability and reflects projectiles. Previously you had to be a condi thief to stack decent vulnerability, and now you don’t.
*Weakening Charge hits harder than heartseeker, does it on 5 targets, and inflicts weakness on each hit for the same initiative cost.
*An evade skill that cures immobilize, the greatest weakness of weapon dodges.
*A recently buffed cone blind
*Another massive AoE damage leap finisher + movement skill which itself may become a dodge
*A 2 second knockdown from stealth

Conclusion: The weapon is a high damage weakness and vulnerability spammer with multiple finishers and an evade you can’t “lock down” like the others.

And the utlities:
*A combo melee skill which outpaces haste in overall damage increase and stuns for 2 seconds.
*A 15/12 second recharge stun breaker block which counterattacks with a 2 second knockdown in melee.
*Power Block + Mantra of Distraction in a single utility
*A ranged skill which inflicts slow, immobilize and poison on another player while doing decent damage
*A somewhat gimmicky finisher skill that dazes + knockdowns for 3 seconds
*A heal skill which recharges 75% endurance every 20/16 seconds.

Conclusion: A crap ton of disables mixed with both offensive and defensive power, capable of being used at multiple ranges. The heal skill provides a massive endurance boost, greater than perma vigor when by itself and greater than pre-nerf vigor when traited.

And the traits:
*Default specialization trait which gives 50 endurance, and takes away nothing.
*Minor heal on dodge. Strong enough to be useful
*50 Endurance on Steal
*A choice between recharge reduction and endurance on physical skills, minor damage buff after dodging, or weakness on crit
*A choice between omni condi cleanse on dodge, endurance regen + damage bonus on staff, and a strong hit on every interrupt
*A choice between a leap finisher damaging dodge, a whirl finisher condi dodge, and a condi cleansing long range dash.

Conclusion: solid traits that let you make offensive, defensive, or even mixed decisions on what you want to buff. The utilities are versatile enough to be used with every other trait line, making them a toolbox that augments the thief in many ways.

So the utilities are good. The weapon is good. The traits are good. You can build for ranged or melee combat, condition or direct damage (even hybrid with how pulmonary impact works), offensive or defensive. It is literally anything you could want in an elite specialization. And yet, the entire forum has decided to take point on a single contrived deficiency, and just hammer that point into the ground.

This isn’t about base thief. Base thief can use some improvements. But once the movements are polished, daredevil is solid.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I find a lot of these complaints to be wrong to the point where it is irrational.

The daredevil is not the new class mechanic. The daredevil is the sum total. It is the new weapon, new utilities, new traits, and new mechanical additions to the class. You have to take all of these into consideration, or else you are outright lying in your complaints.

Looking at everything, the Daredevil is solid. Sure the animations are unpolished, but think about what we do get. Look first at the staff:

*A weapon auto that stacks 14 vulnerability and reflects projectiles. Previously you had to be a condi thief to stack decent vulnerability, and now you don’t.
*Weakening Charge hits harder than heartseeker, does it on 5 targets, and inflicts weakness on each hit for the same initiative cost.
*An evade skill that cures immobilize, the greatest weakness of weapon dodges.
*A recently buffed cone blind
*Another massive AoE damage leap finisher + movement skill which itself may become a dodge
*A 2 second knockdown from stealth

Conclusion: The weapon is a high damage weakness and vulnerability spammer with multiple finishers and an evade you can’t “lock down” like the others.

And the utlities:
*A combo melee skill which outpaces haste in overall damage increase and stuns for 2 seconds.
*A 15/12 second recharge stun breaker block which counterattacks with a 2 second knockdown in melee.
*Power Block + Mantra of Distraction in a single utility
*A ranged skill which inflicts slow, immobilize and poison on another player while doing decent damage
*A somewhat gimmicky finisher skill that dazes + knockdowns for 3 seconds
*A heal skill which recharges 75% endurance every 20/16 seconds.

Conclusion: A crap ton of disables mixed with both offensive and defensive power, capable of being used at multiple ranges. The heal skill provides a massive endurance boost, greater than perma vigor when by itself and greater than pre-nerf vigor when traited.

And the traits:
*Default specialization trait which gives 50 endurance, and takes away nothing.
*Minor heal on dodge. Strong enough to be useful
*50 Endurance on Steal
*A choice between recharge reduction and endurance on physical skills, minor damage buff after dodging, or weakness on crit
*A choice between omni condi cleanse on dodge, endurance regen + damage bonus on staff, and a strong hit on every interrupt
*A choice between a leap finisher damaging dodge, a whirl finisher condi dodge, and a condi cleansing long range dash.

Conclusion: solid traits that let you make offensive, defensive, or even mixed decisions on what you want to buff. The utilities are versatile enough to be used with every other trait line, making them a toolbox that augments the thief in many ways.

So the utilities are good. The weapon is good. The traits are good. You can build for ranged or melee combat, condition or direct damage (even hybrid with how pulmonary impact works), offensive or defensive. It is literally anything you could want in an elite specialization. And yet, the entire forum has decided to take point on a single contrived deficiency, and just hammer that point into the ground.

This isn’t about base thief. Base thief can use some improvements. But once the movements are polished, daredevil is solid.

The point has never been that it’s not effective
It’s that it’s not very interesting.
Elite Specializations were, we were told, grand departures from the norm of a class. A whole new way of approaching things.
The Daredevil is a straight upgrade to the core Thief, and will be required for us to be survivable in the new content… if we’re lucky.
And we’re still going to have a much harder time of it than any other Elite, while gaining little extra for the amount of effort it takes us to survive.

Slowmelt.8547:

The point has never been that it’s not effective
It’s that it’s not very interesting.
Elite Specializations were, we were told, grand departures from the norm of a class. A whole new way of approaching things.
The Daredevil is a straight upgrade to the core Thief, and will be required for us to be survivable in the new content… if we’re lucky.
And we’re still going to have a much harder time of it than any other Elite, while gaining little extra for the amount of effort it takes us to survive.

#1: I find it interesting. This sounds like a “you” problem. Besides, the appearance problems are already being polished out, so this issue may be temporary.
#2: Where was it said that these were grand departures? I want a quote. Besides, I find its prolonged stun heavy nature and new aggressive dodging is a departure of the stealth heavy burst-and-run thieves of the current day.
#3: Daredevil being required is a core thief problem. I’m not even sure it is required, given that venomshare support and stealth-heavy specs won’t use it. I’m not even sure daredevil is maximum DPS in PVE. Wait until after the balance notes on tuesday to make this claim.
#4: I’m not sure we’re going to have a harder time than other elites. I don’t know where you get this idea, and I would like to see where it comes from.

wait wait wait did someone just say mesmer elite F5 is bad? waattttttttttt????
Wasdclick, you can’t be serious…. F5 on mes is AMAZING, i tried chrono during BWE O_o

Jana.6831:

Then why do you say rangers have got it worse than thieves?
And no, nearly all classes can hit harder than thief, just that thief has got no defense.
You can only dodge that often.

Boy oh boy, thief is literally the only class who can go full offensive while maintaining the highest survivability within all classes, just because of the on demand stealth application, now mesmer can be on the same page. other classes on full offensive? you just get kittened in seconds.

Jana.6831:

So? That’s because of the classes’ mechanics, you can buff all you want, still doesn’t change the mechanics how many times do I need to repeat this?

what? it’s not only the class mechanics, it’s every thing a class can do to determine whether they are suit for tournament play or not, buff can be a thing, if they buff all the CC duration, damage to OP level, i ensure you, ranger will be in tournaments

also, you can’t just ignore your freaking op class mechanics, just because w/e reason and balance.

Amante.8109:

Not Thief mechanics, Shortbow #5. Just Shortbow #5.

Remove that and Thieves disappear from every competitive team overnight.

You are basically saying, remove endure pain, warrior will be useless
or remove lighting flash, ele will be doomed
remove blink, mesmer will be useless
remove elixir S, all engi will be reckt.
whats your point again?

Lighter do you even pvp or is it some attempt at….?
Thief can’t go full offensive while maintainign highest (lol) survivability. That is what eles are. Or warrior in rampage with zerker stance. Heck, even mesmers thanks to miriad passives, stealth, CCs and invuls.

Rangers are used in tourneys, just not as much because mesmer is way better.

What is thief’s “freaking OP” mechanic? I would love to hear all about it.

Warriors are not taken in pvp just because of endure pain, eles by far are not taking because lightning flash (i mean wat), nor mesmers for blinks (althrough getting closer there), nor elixir S on engis.
Those classes you named (besides mesmer) fill team fighter/bruiser roles, it is not defined by 1 spell, but by the package. Problem with thief is fills literary 1 function (not even role) right now which is +1. And it is all defined by mobility (sb5) and stealth. Nothing else. Thief fighting capability in pvp is total joke. You know what is a bad thief? The thief that engages fights in pvp. That says enough about state of the class.

edit: the guy plays warrior, no wonder there is salt

The game isn’t even released yet, and still people will spread their doom and gloom about an elite spec that isn’t even fully fleshed out yet, and with most things “New” that GW Dev’s put out, there will be balance patches and updates to kind of tone things down.

Elite specs are one of the main selling points of the expansion, their (The Devs) are surely going to make these specs really look/feel/act ect. powerful and OP, to get more people interested in buying HoT, and I bet once initial sales are in, were all going to see these same specs getting toned down and modified to the point where they’re not anywhere near where they where before at launch.

We all must be patient, and observe as things come out, be mature.

@Odokuro.5049: it may work in other games but we all know way too well how Anet does their balancing. Besides there is less than month left untill release. There will be NO dramatic changes (which are needed imo). Period.

Olympic torch runner…meh
Underwhelming AOEs, I mean traps…meh
Engineer…slot machines…meh
Pole vaulter…meh
Reaper…cool looking, but meh
Frost tuba…absolute yuck
Celestial hospital…whoah, alright
Time bender…hell yes
Shield dragon…of course it was gonna be cooler.

Way I’m keeping score we are right in the middle. At least we’re not absolute yuck.

Shalien.9018:

babazhook.6805:

Hey several months back I suggested expeditous dodger needed to go to 4 seconds. Guess what?

You should have suggested 2 seconds of superspeed instead.

But superspeed is not a boon so can not be extended via boon duration. I was wanting Fleet shadow to become “gain super speed when stealthed”

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I find a lot of these complaints to be wrong to the point where it is irrational.

You’ve missed the point entirely.

We’ve broken down dozens of times why it’s not on par with the other elite spec mechanics. The sum total of everything is not what concerns people. Every elite spec is getting the weapon and 5 skills – no one is saying we need more weapons or more skills. The issue is how the elite specs unique mechanics are laid out.

• Every other spec gets all of their spec mechanics baseline
• Daredevil is the only spec with spec mechanics locked behind grandmaster traits
• Every other spec gets a full trait line that augments the playstyle of the spec
• Daredevil is the only spec who loses the grandmaster trait line to unlock the spec mechanics
• Daredevil’s additional dodge doesn’t augment the baseline endurance regene – making it legitimately 1 more dodge than every other profession in the game…

It would be like Reapers needing to use their Grandmaster traits to change how Reaper Shroud works. Instead, baseline, Reaper Shroud is given to the profession and the grandmaster traits are powerful additions to the profession.

Cynz.9437:

wait wait wait did someone just say mesmer elite F5 is bad? waattttttttttt????
Wasdclick, you can’t be serious…. F5 on mes is AMAZING, i tried chrono during BWE O_o

I was summarizing people’s kneejerk reactions to their profession mechanics after their reveals. The point was to show that everyone had complaints about their profession’s core functionality, and that everyone else’s stuff looks so shiny and sweet when you’re focused in so heavily on your own profession.

The F5 is fantastic, but it can still get you killed.

Shalien.9018:

You’ve missed the point entirely.

We’ve broken down dozens of times why it’s not on par with the other elite spec mechanics. The sum total of everything is not what concerns people.

You’ve missed the point entirely. My point is that people are wrong to ignore everything else. Their analysis, much like your analysis, chooses to ignore how good any of these things are, and instead looks only at sheer quantity. That’s not how it works. Its like a kid with a pound of steak being jealous of another kid with 2 pounds of sawdust because “sawdust boy got more”.

It is lying by omission. Simple as that.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Shalien.9018:

You’ve missed the point entirely.

We’ve broken down dozens of times why it’s not on par with the other elite spec mechanics. The sum total of everything is not what concerns people.

You’ve missed the point entirely. My point is that people are wrong to ignore everything else. Their analysis, much like your analysis, chooses to ignore how good any of these things are, and instead looks only at sheer quantity. That’s not how it works. Its like a kid with a pound of steak being jealous of another kid with 2 pounds of sawdust because “sawdust boy got more”.

It is lying by omission. Simple as that.

No it’s the quality of the elite spec, not the quantity of what’s been given.

Opinions aside, arguing against arguing has never worked. Do you honestly believe complaining that people are complaining is more productive than the feedback the complainers are giving?

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

lighter.2708:

You are basically saying, remove endure pain, warrior will be useless
or remove lighting flash, ele will be doomed
remove blink, mesmer will be useless
remove elixir S, all engi will be reckt.
whats your point again?

Warrior isn’t taken for Endure Pain.
Elementalist isn’t taken for Lightning Flash.
Mesmer isn’t taken for Blink.
Engineer isn’t taken for Elixir S.

The point is that Thief IS taken for Shortbow 5. You don’t think that thief is weak, fine, there is merit in that. Then consider the role that Thief currently plays. Thief is a +1/decapper. How can it do this? Exclusively because of Shortbow 5. Have you ever tried to get around the map without a shortbow? It’s so abysmally slow that I wouldn’t even say the class is worthy of the name “Thief” anymore.

Yeah. It’s not the most mobile profession. It’s the profession with access to the most mobile weapon set. Without Shortbox cemented into our second weapon set slot, we’re not a better decapper than anyone with a ranged blink. Especially since ours is the longest cooldown of all professions.

Shalien.9018:

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

lighter.2708:

You are basically saying, remove endure pain, warrior will be useless
or remove lighting flash, ele will be doomed
remove blink, mesmer will be useless
remove elixir S, all engi will be reckt.
whats your point again?

Warrior isn’t taken for Endure Pain.
Elementalist isn’t taken for Lightning Flash.
Mesmer isn’t taken for Blink.
Engineer isn’t taken for Elixir S.

The point is that Thief IS taken for Shortbow 5. You don’t think that thief is weak, fine, there is merit in that. Then consider the role that Thief currently plays. Thief is a +1/decapper. How can it do this? Exclusively because of Shortbow 5. Have you ever tried to get around the map without a shortbow? It’s so abysmally slow that I wouldn’t even say the class is worthy of the name “Thief” anymore.

Yeah. It’s not the most mobile profession. It’s the profession with access to the most mobile weapon set. Without Shortbox cemented into our second weapon set slot, we’re not a better decapper than anyone with a ranged blink. Especially since ours is the longest cooldown of all professions.

I actually deleted my post because I felt like I was wasting my breath. A bit too slow on that apparently haha

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

Shalien.9018:

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

lighter.2708:

You are basically saying, remove endure pain, warrior will be useless
or remove lighting flash, ele will be doomed
remove blink, mesmer will be useless
remove elixir S, all engi will be reckt.
whats your point again?

Warrior isn’t taken for Endure Pain.
Elementalist isn’t taken for Lightning Flash.
Mesmer isn’t taken for Blink.
Engineer isn’t taken for Elixir S.

The point is that Thief IS taken for Shortbow 5. You don’t think that thief is weak, fine, there is merit in that. Then consider the role that Thief currently plays. Thief is a +1/decapper. How can it do this? Exclusively because of Shortbow 5. Have you ever tried to get around the map without a shortbow? It’s so abysmally slow that I wouldn’t even say the class is worthy of the name “Thief” anymore.

Yeah. It’s not the most mobile profession. It’s the profession with access to the most mobile weapon set. Without Shortbox cemented into our second weapon set slot, we’re not a better decapper than anyone with a ranged blink. Especially since ours is the longest cooldown of all professions.

I actually deleted my post because I felt like I was wasting my breath. A bit too slow on that apparently haha

lol, sorry man.

You’re point is good and even though you may be wasting your breath on the exact person you’re talking to, correcting misunderstandings goes a long way toward helping the silent browsers understand the issues more easily. Quite a few of the past few days of feedback have been correcting people who are more than likely unconcerned with the actual success of the profession and even though it goes in one ear and out the other, we’ve developed quite the conceptual language to communicate the outstanding issues with the profession.

Many threads now have a consistent language on what we need fixed in Daredevil for it to work properly. The community as a whole has pretty much reached a consensus on quite a few things and as a whole Thief will be better for it in the coming months.

Wasdclick.1764:

I was summarizing people’s kneejerk reactions to their profession mechanics after their reveals.

Kneejerk reactions exist for a reason. When you’re used to being punched in the face for years at a time, an errant twitch or two is to be expected.

Shalien.9018:

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

lighter.2708:

You are basically saying, remove endure pain, warrior will be useless
or remove lighting flash, ele will be doomed
remove blink, mesmer will be useless
remove elixir S, all engi will be reckt.
whats your point again?

Warrior isn’t taken for Endure Pain.
Elementalist isn’t taken for Lightning Flash.
Mesmer isn’t taken for Blink.
Engineer isn’t taken for Elixir S.

The point is that Thief IS taken for Shortbow 5. You don’t think that thief is weak, fine, there is merit in that. Then consider the role that Thief currently plays. Thief is a +1/decapper. How can it do this? Exclusively because of Shortbow 5. Have you ever tried to get around the map without a shortbow? It’s so abysmally slow that I wouldn’t even say the class is worthy of the name “Thief” anymore.

Yeah. It’s not the most mobile profession. It’s the profession with access to the most mobile weapon set. Without Shortbox cemented into our second weapon set slot, we’re not a better decapper than anyone with a ranged blink. Especially since ours is the longest cooldown of all professions.

Distance traveled with a single rotation:
• 2x 900 Units from Inf. Arrow or 3x 600 Units from Vault
• 1200 Units from Shadow Step
• Up to 6x 450 Units with Dash (3x Base, 2x from SoA, 1x from Channeled Vigor)
—————————————————-
• 5700 Units traveled + Quite some Swiftness Duration from Dash

Sure it is not optimal, but claiming that other Professions are more mobile than Dare Devil without SB is just false. If we want to dedicate our build to it, no one holds water against the Mobility of a Dare Devil. Even if we remove Inf. Arrow from that Equation, we still end up with 5700 Units because 3 Vaults equal 2 Inf. Arrows.
For some people, Mobility might not be a selling point, but when it comes to Mobility Thief/Dare Devil are miles ahead of the rest.

EDIT: Ok, your Point was about the current Situation where DD does not exist, but with a look at HoT, Thieves who are willing to take DD will be unrivaled when it comes to Mobility, even if you drop Shortbow.

Shalien.9018:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Shalien.9018:

You’ve missed the point entirely.

We’ve broken down dozens of times why it’s not on par with the other elite spec mechanics. The sum total of everything is not what concerns people.

You’ve missed the point entirely. My point is that people are wrong to ignore everything else. Their analysis, much like your analysis, chooses to ignore how good any of these things are, and instead looks only at sheer quantity. That’s not how it works. Its like a kid with a pound of steak being jealous of another kid with 2 pounds of sawdust because “sawdust boy got more”.

It is lying by omission. Simple as that.

No it’s the quality of the elite spec, not the quantity of what’s been given.

Opinions aside, arguing against arguing has never worked. Do you honestly believe complaining that people are complaining is more productive than the feedback the complainers are giving?

You just did it. You just told me that no body cared about the sum, and instead everyone is focusing on the “Mechanic”. You dumped two paragraphs and a list about that one, single fact while completely ignoring the quality and synergy of everything. You are either so irrational that you haven’t put two and two together, or you are so shameless that you are lying right to my face.

This forum is filled non-constructive tantrums that are bellowing so loud that they’re silencing any constructive thoughts. Its so bad that when someone made a thread in the PVP forum over the topic of thieves he was bashed down again and again over how wrong they were. It is crap like this that makes it hard for the devs to get constructive feedback. And like an impetuous child, this forum needs to be brought to its senses.

For the love of all things cloaked in stealth, say something that is right for a change.

There is plenty of constructive feedback nestled amongst the current negativity of this forum. The only reason nothing is being heard is that Karl simply isn’t listening.

Anyone with an understanding of the history of GW2 knows that it’s gotten a whole lot more negative than this. The Ranger forums have been just as bitter as the Thief forums have (and stayed that way even after the Druid reveal, which is more than a little silly).

Never mind the fact that Necromancer negativity was on a whole other level Thieves couldn’t hope to match, and yet, they got most of what they wanted. Curious…

Amante.8109:

Never mind the fact that Necromancer negativity was on a whole other level Thieves couldn’t hope to match, and yet, they got most of what they wanted. Curious…

Yeah, maybe we should stop being constructive and making jokes..
But then again that’s what I like about this forum..
So a thief I would enjoy more or a forum I’d enjoy less.. tough descision.

NapTooN.6283:

EDIT: Ok, your Point was about the current Situation where DD does not exist, but with a look at HoT, Thieves who are willing to take DD will be unrivaled when it comes to Mobility, even if you drop Shortbow.

Ya lol. My point is that, Shortbow is all of our mobility not the profession. Look at your math for how much distance is covered by Shortbow.

Go into sPvP today and try to backcap and +1 without shortbow in your bar.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

You just did it. You just told me that no body cared about the sum, and instead everyone is focusing on the “Mechanic”. You dumped two paragraphs and a list about that one, single fact while completely ignoring the quality and synergy of everything. You are either so irrational that you haven’t put two and two together, or you are so shameless that you are lying right to my face.

The third option is that you don’t understand what we’re saying.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

This forum is filled non-constructive tantrums that are bellowing so loud that they’re silencing any constructive thoughts. Its so bad that when someone made a thread in the PVP forum over the topic of thieves he was bashed down again and again over how wrong they were. It is crap like this that makes it hard for the devs to get constructive feedback. And like an impetuous child, this forum needs to be brought to its senses.

I only see one person here making personal attacks and not providing any feedback.

There are dozens of positive/constructive ideas that have been born on this subforum since BWE2. People have joined together to give great feedback to the devs including balanced functional skills, animation shortcuts to save time in development, UI examples of how things can be laid out. These forums have been overwhelmingly productive. The negativity comes from the fact that there is no dev response on the outstanding issues.

You need to dust yourself off man, you’re covered in salt.

Shalien.9018:

NapTooN.6283:

EDIT: Ok, your Point was about the current Situation where DD does not exist, but with a look at HoT, Thieves who are willing to take DD will be unrivaled when it comes to Mobility, even if you drop Shortbow.

Ya lol. My point is that, Shortbow is all of our mobility not the profession. Look at your math for how much distance is covered by Shortbow.

Go into sPvP today and try to backcap and +1 without shortbow in your bar.

That won’t end well for sure. But on the bright side, HoT is a Month away, if you love Mobility and hate being forced into SB, throw it away and pick up DD in Exchange.

Shalien.9018:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

You just did it. You just told me that no body cared about the sum, and instead everyone is focusing on the “Mechanic”. You dumped two paragraphs and a list about that one, single fact while completely ignoring the quality and synergy of everything. You are either so irrational that you haven’t put two and two together, or you are so shameless that you are lying right to my face.

The third option is that you don’t understand what we’re saying.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

This forum is filled non-constructive tantrums that are bellowing so loud that they’re silencing any constructive thoughts. Its so bad that when someone made a thread in the PVP forum over the topic of thieves he was bashed down again and again over how wrong they were. It is crap like this that makes it hard for the devs to get constructive feedback. And like an impetuous child, this forum needs to be brought to its senses.

I only see one person here making personal attacks and not providing any feedback.

There are dozens of positive/constructive ideas that have been born on this subforum since BWE2. People have joined together to give great feedback to the devs including balanced functional skills, animation shortcuts to save time in development, UI examples of how things can be laid out. These forums have been overwhelmingly productive. The negativity comes from the fact that there is no dev response on the outstanding issues.

You need to dust yourself off man, you’re covered in salt.

Its too late. You’ve already done it. Its not even the first time you’ve done it. You’re trying to turn this around, but it isn’t going to work. If you had done so much as a cursory investigation you’d have known that the devs had already taken many of my suggestions and put them in, sometimes at exact value.

No dev is responding because no dev wants to respond to this. When the forum was constructive in the past, a dev responded in the past. Hell, the last response we got was 3 days ago in the daredevil BWE3 thread. But what is a dev supposed to say when the entire forum is eulogizing their thieves, telling other players to reroll, throwing fits of jealousy over things other professions are getting, and proclaiming falsehoods like thieves only have dodges or thieves won’t survive raids?

Everyone is salty because everyone is wading through your tears.

Couple of things I’d like to mention.

Shalien.9018:

The negativity comes from the fact that there is no dev response on the outstanding issues.

This is true.

We’re negative because we on top of the vitriolic whispers about SB5 being too strong, the absolute glassiness of the class, the shoehorning into pvp roles of “decaping and +1” and the cries from the other classes that this shoehorning is somehow right and proper and the comparative lackluster elite spec we received compared to every other class, somehow we still get people asking us to sit down and be happy (many of whom don’t even play the class and have never tried it in their lives, how dare you) and apparent ignorance of the devs on how much of a genuinely bad time we have across the board when we play thief.

It’s not much bigger than that. We don’t expect some kind of apology, we don’t even really need a “we’re working on it.” we just would like to see results, to see steps taken that would make our class somewhat competitive.

It seems like a genuine kick in the teeth at some points. We had to howl to get a pistol buff, and now theres some word on the wind that future game mechanics will simply circumvent dodging, which would be okay if our entire spec buff was not solely built around that mechanic.

Some people may say it better. Some people may not. The fact of the matter is we’re in a bad spot, and every day we remain in that bad spot someone who dares to play the class is not enjoying it, not because of skill deficiency but because of class inadequacy.

And its not like we’re being paid to run thief. We like running it, but most of us can learn X class if we just wanted to win.

I think the bottum 3 proffesions (KARL protocole) compared to the other 6 is Hugh..huge I hope karl comes up to redeem him self with this or it be a real lackluster

we want mechanics something cool not just a little extra that is outshined by the rest.

That said, I honestly do not mind to much. I will remain a Thief. Not Daredevil (its namebing a big reason)

Every thing like feedback has allrady been said a bout a million times in above posts.

S-

Don’t forget that our old feline grace was basically a third dodge. They took out half our acrobatics trait line and put it back in as daredevil. We have to pay in order to get closer to our former glory.

My biggest contention is that a lot of these complaints are either paranoia, or just not true. I’m not sure thieves are in a bad spot at all, and if they are then other classes are in far worse spots.

I talk mostly from a PVE/WvW perspective, but looking at all of the elite specializations I’d rank Daredevil in the top 3. The Daredevil is one of two specializations where I’ll be glad to use everything: weapons, traits, and utilities. The only other one that holds that title is the Chronomancer, the undisputed king of the elite specializations. Everyone else? My personal rankings:

Tempest: Traits have no synergy and are feeble, the weapon doesn’t provide the necessities for ele, and the shouts are just inferior to cantrips/arcane. Class mechanic is cumbersome. I’m not sure I’ll even play tempest.
Dragonhunter: Longbow is meh. Traps feel gimmicky and aren’t as versatile as I’d like them to be, as do the traits. New virtues don’t go well with all the old virtue traits. Not sure I’ll even play Dragonhunter.
Druid: Its a glorified heal bot. The traits are uninteresting, the staff basically does one thing. The glyphs seem alright, though. Class mechanic is basically if water attunement/ventari had a life force bar. Not sure I"ll even play Druid.
Berserker: The weapon seems gimmicky. Utilities and traits are good, though. I don’t much like warrior, so I won’t be playing this.
Scrapper: Gyros look flawed and ineffective. Traits are a mixed bag, as usual. The hammer looks great, though. The class mechanic is strange and I’m not sure how good it’ll be.
Herald: Basically a buff bot. But hey, its better than a heal bot. Shield is situational, utilities are fine, and only two traits caught my eye.
Reaper: The weapon is sexy. The traits are frightening. The shouts… so-so. I love the new shroud, but wish I had a viable ranged option.
Daredevil: I like everything, and want to use everything in multiple combinations. I hate that it is basically what acro should’ve been, but at least we’re getting what acro should’ve been.
Chronomancer: The world will never forget the day the chronomancer sets foot upon Tyria. Particularly because that day happened twice, but at double the speed.

As far as dev attention goes… that’s how nearly every forum feels. It is easier to name the exception: Revenant. I’m not sure the thief forum is actually deprived, with the most recent red post being from 3 days ago, giving us an update on dash. Were I to personally rank them, the ranger gets the least amount of attention, due to the large number of things that were absolutely broken (I.E. pet condition damage) rather than being broken by opinion.

As far as PVP standings go, I think this is a case of envy. Each class has things they can do better than others, and many classes are envious that thief even has a place. The PVP meta is currently out of balance, though, with D/D ele being so prevalent that it is hard to get a look at anyone else. The state of the PVP game is so in flux that the role of thieves might change after tuesday. I’m not the most up to date on PVP, though.

I already wrote at length about the dodging issue. Without any word of special hit-through-dodge mechanics, I am very certain that the DD will be capable of evading well enough to survive. The amount of dodging available to each class varies wildly, so while something like Necromancer definitely can’t dodge it all, the Daredevil can recover 2.8 times as much endurance through traits alone and gets a weapon dodge every 4 seconds. Unless the content was designed specifically to be polarized against the Daredevil, then the raids aren’t countering all those dodges.

Thieves aren’t as glassy as we’re made out to be. On the statistical side we’re the second to least durable class (next to the elementalist), but our defenses aren’t in our statistics. Our defenses come from our ability to debuff and disable, our personal healing, and our high movement speed. The glassiness might be a meta enforced problem: the thief’s current roles are done best in GC gear, so from the perspective of build specs we’re not as durable as Celestials.

Thieves have received a lot of nerfs in the past. I know why, too. There was old saying: You can’t beat a perfect thief. The thief’s original design left it with so many tools that were powerful, instant-cast, and compounded with each other so well that it was overpowered. When something like Infiltrator’s Strike is instant cast… there’s not much anyone can do other than hope you make a mistake. This leaves devs with a dilemma. You can’t have a class that can beat all others regardless of circumstance just by being more skilled. A class has to have non-trivial weaknesses and openings. So the devs have to make piecemeal nerfs to ensure that thieves are evasive but not too evasive, invisible but not too hard to see, stunning but not too disabling, fast but not uncatchable. With nerfs, you need to look at the overall picture: the amount of nerfs a class receives isn’t a problem so long as their overall standing is still good. Thieves started out far ahead. The fact that thieves are still usable, even after a series incremental nerfs, speaks volumes about how good they were in the past.

Now you’re probably all wondering what I consider legitimate complaints. You’re not? Well too bad, I’m telling you anyway.

#1: Acrobatics is still the worst line in the game. Though I don’t think Acro was butchered just to make Daredevil, it certainly does feel that way. The thing is, old acro gave Feline Grace and near perma old vigor, amounting to a 185% increase in natural dodging. The new acro just gives a 33% increase to natural dodging. It simply needs to do more. Also all the other traits are horrendous.
#2: Weapon Viability. Currently, nearly all thieves use D/P + SB in PVP. We need sword, off-hand dagger, and main-hand pistol to be more viable. This is compounded by other things on this list, such as the acro line being horrible (sword) and ricochet being missing. This will also alleviate other problems, such as condi pressure.
#3: Ricochet. ‘Nuff said.
#4: I think a 4 second reveal is too much. Remember, this was a decision made a long time ago, back when thieves had nearly everything and no class had counters. Nowadays, I don’t think this is necessary anymore.
#5: The Impact Strike chain isn’t that good.

This isn’t all, but these are the big 5 that I’m looking at right now. Acrobatics should be dealt with first, because it will have a ripple effect that will change everything else.

Nike.2631:

Shalien.9018:

We definitely didn’t get the vocally-passionate dev. Let’s hope he’s the secretly-implements-what-the-community-actually-wants dev.

My honest opinion working with and training RPG game designers for more than a decade?

He’s probably the most thoughtful of the personalities we’re seeing. He’s trying to hit a sweet spot where his designs won’t have to be nerfed later (which is generally more damaging to retention than being buffed after a weak start). He’s a bit conservative compared to the others, but there’s morsels of steak under the sizzle.

That said he’s got to be looking at the relative reactions to the various Especs and wanting to have a ‘hero moment’ or two of his own delivering some nice, defensible adjustments that build enthusiasm for his flock before all decisions are locked in.

I hope that impulse to be daring shines through. Soon.

Just my take.

This is my thought too. I’m glad we are weak enough not to hit nerfs after the first “omg op wtf roflcoptermao ice cream cones!” but still- having a little bit of something broken would be nice. Like vault evading the entire frame, then nerfed later to only 1/4 of the cast (somewhere). =P But yea, I’m cautiously optimstic. If the other classes don’t get nerfed though, we NEED to be dummy buffed.

Dummy Buffed: A funny goat with a long mustache takes a look and says BAAAHAHAHA and fixes things by accidentally adding random key strokes because he can’t control his mustache. Keystrokes like random 0’s added to the end of the number (X10 power).

Edit: Attempt at humor, do not judge.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

#2: Weapon Viability. Currently, nearly all thieves use D/P + SB in PVP.

I want to add on to this. I think there also needs to be a good reason to take something other than shortbow. The problem that I am seeing is that shortbow is a weapon that gives us access to our mobility, when really I think that it should be a weapon that supplements it. Also to clarify, since many of you might think that I am just lobbying for shortbow nerfs, it’s not quite that simple. I’d like to see that mobility given back elsewhere so we will be more mobile without shortbow (maybe Daredevil has solutions to this).