“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
You kidding me?
But what is a dev supposed to say when the entire forum is eulogizing their thieves, telling other players to reroll, throwing fits of jealousy over things other professions are getting, and proclaiming falsehoods like thieves only have dodges or thieves won’t survive raids?
Everyone is salty because everyone is wading through your tears.
You’re arguing with me as if I was the entire Thief community.
I never made personal attacks. I never said to stop playing Thief. I never posted in the funeral thread. I’ve never said that Thieves wont survive in raids. If you’re going to argue with me, argue with things I’ve said instead of things that you think I may have said.
In contrast to what you’re saying, I’ve actually been quite optimistic… to quote myself from this very thread:
Shalien.9018Even though it seems obvious that we’re being ignored at this point, I hope Karl’s looking at our suggestions and isn’t responding because he has to talk to the UI team about adding the dodges as a selection box. Maybe he’s getting final approval on adjusting endurance regen to be % based from the balance team supervisor.
I understand that you feel like that people are incorrect about Dardevil.
The people who are saying that daredevil needs to improve are basing it on theory-crafted min-maxing and number crunching. Not on how they feel about the elite spec. It’s quite clear you don’t understand where the issues are and that’s fine, but you should try not to be mean to people just because you don’t understand what they’re suggesting or why they’re upset.
If you have the math to back up your beliefs, post them as a peer and let it be reviewed by the community. Educate people instead of trying to belittle everyone.
I’m going to reiterate one more time for you, if you still don’t get it I’m sorry I can’t communicate it in a way you understand. The concerns for Daredevil are the base principles behind the elite specialization’s layout and how Daredevil is designed in a manner that doesn’t match the design standard of all other elite specializations. Thereby making it suffer from power-creep being introduced by HoT.
Every other elite spec gets:
- New/robust profession mechanic
- New weapon
- New 6-10 skill category
- 3 new minor traits
- 9 new major traits
Daredevil gets:
- 1 additional dodge bar
- New weapon
- New 6-10 skill category
- 3 new minor traits
- 6 new major traits
- Obviously, the dodges are the main part of the new mechanic. Instead of being given to us baseline, these are locked behind our trait line and replace the grandmaster traits.
All they need to do to balance Daredevil against the design standard is roll the dodges into the elite spec mechanic so that it matches every other elite spec’s design. Then we’d have:
- New/robust profession mechanic
- New weapon
- New 6-10 skill category
- 3 new minor traits
- 9 new major traits
I mean… you think Thieves are in the top 3 professions right now. For casual gameplay sure, Thieves are fun. The elite spec seems neat-o! We’re mostly concerned with competitive balance and power-creep.
On the forum “attacking” “he who knows his name” as a dev that shouldn’t affect his work or communication he won’t make progress by staying by himself in an office with the same mentality that created the “attacks”. There was barely anything from him except for selling DD and purity of pistols 2.0, nothing on OH dagger and why SA nerfs that barely scratched d/p (why would you think CiS as a GM is good idea why even non thief players wouldn’t but you did!!),noth…etc. I could go on but this forum section already did.
If tuesday doesn’t show he understood the feedback he can only expect one thing not trying to put more pressure but latest changes are not a good sign.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread
You’re arguing with me as if I was the entire Thief community.
I never made personal attacks. I never said to stop playing Thief. I never posted in the funeral thread. I’ve never said that Thieves wont survive in raids. If you’re going to argue with me, argue with things I’ve said instead of things that you think I may have said.
Tiz the nature of the beast. If I list a bunch of problems the community has, then you come debating it while having those exact same problems, then one leads to another.
In contrast to what you’re saying, I’ve actually been quite optimistic… to quote myself from this very thread:
Also to quote you from this very thread:
Well at least we know our entire elite spec won’t be adequate for survival either.
New mechanics:
Guardian – Virtues that project physically in the world
Revenant – Channel a dragon! also a pbaoe that makes boons last longer
Warrior – Fire empowered berserk burst skills
Engineer – Mechanically assisted range finisher and reviver
Ranger – God like healing
Elementalist – Fire tornados, water bubble, lightning striking , earth quake riding madness
Mesmer – Time travel
Necromancer – Improved demonic stateThief – dodges …..
rectification : Thief – dodge ….
Without the “s”. Because apparently our endurance still recharges at the same speed as other endurance bars.
+1
end quotes.
I understand that you feel like that people are incorrect about Dardevil.
The people who are saying that daredevil needs to improve are basing it on theory-crafted min-maxing and number crunching. Not on how they feel about the elite spec. It’s quite clear you don’t understand where the issues are and that’s fine, but you should try not to be mean to people just because you don’t understand what they’re suggesting or why they’re upset.
No, what I’m seeing is people being jealous of everything that other specs get. The very first post in this thread is exactly that. See, I also see people on occasion make a good suggestion, but I have to trudge through tears to get to it.
If you have the math to back up your beliefs, post them as a peer and let it be reviewed by the community. Educate people instead of trying to belittle everyone.
Ask and ye shall receive. I cataloged a lot of the numbers from BWE2. You’ll have to note that many of these numbers will be out of date, since most of these skills have been changed, and many of them to my exact numbers. I’ve already written out about the dodging potential of the class. You’ll have to be specific about which “belief” you want me to prove, though.
I’m going to reiterate one more time for you, if you still don’t get it I’m sorry I can’t communicate it in a way you understand. The concerns for Daredevil are the base principles behind the elite specialization’s layout and how Daredevil is designed in a manner that doesn’t match the design standard of all other elite specializations. Thereby making it suffer from power-creep being introduced by HoT.
This is pathetic. You don’t get it. I understand what you are saying. What you are saying, however, is ill-informed. So I’ll explain it to you, again: The community is wrong to think like that. The daredevil is a powerful specialization because the combination of skills, utilities, weapon, and mechanics make it as good or better than the other specializations. The “design standard” is meaningless in light of this. It is a contrived point that ignores what actually matters.
All they need to do to balance Daredevil against the design standard is roll the dodges into the elite spec mechanic so that it matches every other elite spec’s design. Then we’d have:
- New/robust profession mechanic
- New weapon
- New 6-10 skill category
- 3 new minor traits
- 9 new major traits
See, here is the thing. If you were to roll the all into the profession mechanic, then be prepared to take a massive hit on every other category. The ability to access 2 finishers, damage on dodge, large AoE condition + cripple on dodge, and cleanse + escape on dodge as needed is incredibly powerful. More powerful than what any other class gets, even Chronomancer. And on top of this powerful ability, we would have to get 3 new grandmaster level traits that will bolster things even more. Considering how solid everything else is, to reign in the Daredevil the devs would be forced to make draconian cuts. For example, having a 30 second cooldown on each individual dodge skill, doubling the recharge time of all physical skills, removing the additional endurance bar, removing conditions from the staff, 15 second internal cooldowns on escapists absolution and impacting disruption, etc. and so on.
The daredevil was built and balanced around the assumption of an additional dodge bar and those dodges. That’s why everything else is so potent. To make the dodges a hereto ambiguous “mechanic” would mean having to take away so much for the sake of balance, and then hitting the DD again because of what new grandmasters would require.
If you really think the grandmasters are insufficient, then make suggestions on how to improve them or other aspects for which the daredevil or the thief is insufficient. Don’t just say “give us everything, and then new grandmasters”, and leave it to the devs. They’d neuter us faster than we could blink, and rightfully so given how overpowered we would become.
I mean… you think Thieves are in the top 3 professions right now. For casual gameplay sure, Thieves are fun. The elite spec seems neat-o! We’re mostly concerned with competitive balance and power-creep.
4th overall, actually, but don’t pretend you’re concerned with competitive balance. You just omitted everything again. That is envy, first and foremost. You’re just putting it into pretty words.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
See, here is the thing. If you were to roll the all into the profession mechanic, then be prepared to take a massive hit on every other category. The ability to access 2 finishers, damage on dodge, large AoE condition + cripple on dodge, and cleanse + escape on dodge as needed is incredibly powerful. More powerful than what any other class gets, even Chronomancer. And on top of this powerful ability, we would have to get 3 new grandmaster level traits that will bolster things even more.
I think what a lot of thief players here have been suggesting is that the Daredevil spec include f3-f5 keys that toggle which of the dodges you have active, so it’s not as if we want to have access to all three of those GM traits at once. People are asking for a more interesting DD mechanic other than “You first minor in DD gives you an extra dodge.” Look at the other professions’ elite specs and compare. Most of them are insanely more original and creative. Changing the dodge type to a toggle that selects which you are using is more interactive and raises the skill ceiling on thieves, enabling us to decide which dodge is best to use, and challenging us to use it correctly and at the best times. This also lets 3 new GMs be created as well, yay more creativity! I don’t think this would break thief.
Godz Raiden (Thief)
Maguuma
Maguuma
You’re arguing with me as if I was the entire Thief community.
I never made personal attacks. I never said to stop playing Thief. I never posted in the funeral thread. I’ve never said that Thieves wont survive in raids. If you’re going to argue with me, argue with things I’ve said instead of things that you think I may have said.
Tiz the nature of the beast. If I list a bunch of problems the community has, then you come debating it while having those exact same problems, then one leads to another.
In contrast to what you’re saying, I’ve actually been quite optimistic… to quote myself from this very thread:
Also to quote you from this very thread:
Well at least we know our entire elite spec won’t be adequate for survival either.
New mechanics:
Guardian – Virtues that project physically in the world
Revenant – Channel a dragon! also a pbaoe that makes boons last longer
Warrior – Fire empowered berserk burst skills
Engineer – Mechanically assisted range finisher and reviver
Ranger – God like healing
Elementalist – Fire tornados, water bubble, lightning striking , earth quake riding madness
Mesmer – Time travel
Necromancer – Improved demonic stateThief – dodges …..
rectification : Thief – dodge ….
Without the “s”. Because apparently our endurance still recharges at the same speed as other endurance bars.
+1
end quotes.
I understand that you feel like that people are incorrect about Dardevil.
The people who are saying that daredevil needs to improve are basing it on theory-crafted min-maxing and number crunching. Not on how they feel about the elite spec. It’s quite clear you don’t understand where the issues are and that’s fine, but you should try not to be mean to people just because you don’t understand what they’re suggesting or why they’re upset.
No, what I’m seeing is people being jealous of everything that other specs get. The very first post in this thread is exactly that. See, I also see people on occasion make a good suggestion, but I have to trudge through tears to get to it.
If you have the math to back up your beliefs, post them as a peer and let it be reviewed by the community. Educate people instead of trying to belittle everyone.
Ask and ye shall receive. I cataloged a lot of the numbers from BWE2. You’ll have to note that many of these numbers will be out of date, since most of these skills have been changed, and many of them to my exact numbers. I’ve already written out about the dodging potential of the class. You’ll have to be specific about which “belief” you want me to prove, though.
I’m going to reiterate one more time for you, if you still don’t get it I’m sorry I can’t communicate it in a way you understand. The concerns for Daredevil are the base principles behind the elite specialization’s layout and how Daredevil is designed in a manner that doesn’t match the design standard of all other elite specializations. Thereby making it suffer from power-creep being introduced by HoT.
This is pathetic. You don’t get it. I understand what you are saying. What you are saying, however, is ill-informed. So I’ll explain it to you, again: The community is wrong to think like that. The daredevil is a powerful specialization because the combination of skills, utilities, weapon, and mechanics make it as good or better than the other specializations. The “design standard” is meaningless in light of this. It is a contrived point that ignores what actually matters.
All they need to do to balance Daredevil against the design standard is roll the dodges into the elite spec mechanic so that it matches every other elite spec’s design. Then we’d have:
- New/robust profession mechanic
- New weapon
- New 6-10 skill category
- 3 new minor traits
- 9 new major traits
See, here is the thing. If you were to roll the all into the profession mechanic, then be prepared to take a massive hit on every other category. The ability to access 2 finishers, damage on dodge, large AoE condition + cripple on dodge, and cleanse + escape on dodge as needed is incredibly powerful. More powerful than what any other class gets, even Chronomancer. And on top of this powerful ability, we would have to get 3 new grandmaster level traits that will bolster things even more. Considering how solid everything else is, to reign in the Daredevil the devs would be forced to make draconian cuts. For example, having a 30 second cooldown on each individual dodge skill, doubling the recharge time of all physical skills, removing the additional endurance bar, removing conditions from the staff, 15 second internal cooldowns on escapists absolution and impacting disruption, etc. and so on.
The daredevil was built and balanced around the assumption of an additional dodge bar and those dodges. That’s why everything else is so potent. To make the dodges a hereto ambiguous “mechanic” would mean having to take away so much for the sake of balance, and then hitting the DD again because of what new grandmasters would require.
If you really think the grandmasters are insufficient, then make suggestions on how to improve them or other aspects for which the daredevil or the thief is insufficient. Don’t just say “give us everything, and then new grandmasters”, and leave it to the devs. They’d neuter us faster than we could blink, and rightfully so given how overpowered we would become.
I mean… you think Thieves are in the top 3 professions right now. For casual gameplay sure, Thieves are fun. The elite spec seems neat-o! We’re mostly concerned with competitive balance and power-creep.
4th overall, actually, but don’t pretend you’re concerned with competitive balance. You just omitted everything again. That is envy, first and foremost. You’re just putting it into pretty words.
Excellent post. Just take the example of Don’t Stop which is a GM trait in the Acro line. For those that take that line (and there a few) the majority take this trait and most of those happy with it.
Don’t stop is a MUCH lessor version of the Unhindered Combat dodge. It is on a 10 second coolddown as compared to one that can be used as long as one has enough endurance.
The reason that they can offer so much to Unhindered combat as compared to Don’t stop in the way of benefits is because the GM trait and dodge mechanic are bundled which IMHO is fine.
I would rather have this then have a GM trait called Upper hand and a Dodge on a toolbar that just offered 3/4 second evade and swiftness.
Now I do think that Bounding Dodger and Impaling lotus might warrant a teak upwards but people that simply count the number of traits or new things without looking at the thing holisticaly are vastly underestimating the strengths of the DD line.
Thieves aren’t as glassy as we’re made out to be. On the statistical side we’re the second to least durable class (next to the elementalist), but our defenses aren’t in our statistics. Our defenses come from our ability to debuff and disable, our personal healing, and our high movement speed. The glassiness might be a meta enforced problem: the thief’s current roles are done best in GC gear, so from the perspective of build specs we’re not as durable as Celestials.
I understand the point you’re attempting to make, but I don’t believe it’s as solid as you’re making it sound.
The Thief is purely fragile. There’s no way around that. And it has only gotten worse. The ability to avoid death was gutted. Other professions’ damage output went up while our active defense capabilities went down.
Just the method of gutting Acrobatics and forcing us to buy Daredevil if we want to have what we used to have… that is a very valid reason for contempt.
And what really takes the cake is all of the passive defenses and offensive counters that other professions have received. How is a Thief supposed to both survive and fight when we get stunned whenever we stun the enemy? Or take damage when we successfully attack a target? Or catch fire when an opponent blocks? Or when a foe can barrage us with immunity after they pop an invulnerability?
What’s sad is that it’s not even true that we are faster than anyone else. We just have VERY select skills/utilities that can get us places faster. But we still can’t outrun anyone straight up. Nor can we outdodge anyone straight up. However, we can straight up get killed faster than anyone.
It’s sad, and the Thief concept is broken. It is being treated as though it is just a normal profession when it is, in fact, unique. And somebody or somebodies didn’t even sit down and think things through when they started either designing or changing the Thief. It makes absolutely no sense to do what they’ve done if they want it to be as effective as any other profession.
Comparing yourself to Druid is fruitless. Rangers received more than any other profession. Whereas everyone else received modified existing mechanics or perhaps an extra button to push, Druids got a whole new mechanic nearly on par with Deathshroud in its complexity (it doesn’t have the trait support ds does). This is on top of getting a 2 handed weapon and Glyphs as their utility. The rule we’d seen so far that seemed to say “2hander = tweaked existing mechanics, offhand = new additional mechanics” was thrown out the window. Though perhaps the stricter role the Druid elite spec has offsets this.
Excepting the Druid, The Daredevil mechanic effects aren’t necessarily bad compared to what everyone else received. With the exception of Druid everyone else who received a two-handed just got replaced mechanics (Virtues/Deathshroud). Thief’s dodge mechanic specialty is an oddball like the Engineer function Gyro – but I like that not every elite spec need deal directly with the profession mechanic.
The intrinsic issue with Daredevil is that it forces you to change your dodge. Not everyone wants to dodge further or be caught in extended animations. I personally found the dodges annoying because they were hard to utilize offensively while in melee and forced me out of range.
Having the Daredevil dodge be a slotted F3 or something would be better so that you can still utilize the normal shorter range dodge when you need it.
Thieves aren’t as glassy as we’re made out to be. On the statistical side we’re the second to least durable class (next to the elementalist), but our defenses aren’t in our statistics. Our defenses come from our ability to debuff and disable, our personal healing, and our high movement speed. The glassiness might be a meta enforced problem: the thief’s current roles are done best in GC gear, so from the perspective of build specs we’re not as durable as Celestials.
I understand the point you’re attempting to make, but I don’t believe it’s as solid as you’re making it sound.
This. It’s over simplification reinforcing itself.
(edited by Shalien.9018)
Elementalist is glassy?
Angelina is free game again.
Crystal Desert
Crystal Desert
Comparing yourself to Druid is fruitless. Rangers received more than any other profession. Whereas everyone else received modified existing mechanics or perhaps an extra button to push, Druids got a whole new mechanic nearly on par with Deathshroud in its complexity (it doesn’t have the trait support ds does). This is on top of getting a 2 handed weapon and Glyphs as their utility. The rule we’d seen so far that seemed to say “2hander = tweaked existing mechanics, offhand = new additional mechanics” was thrown out the window. Though perhaps the stricter role the Druid elite spec has offsets this.
Excepting the Druid, The Daredevil mechanic effects aren’t necessarily bad compared to what everyone else received. With the exception of Druid everyone else who received a two-handed just got replaced mechanics (Virtues/Deathshroud). Thief’s dodge mechanic specialty is an oddball like the Engineer function Gyro – but I like that not every elite spec need deal directly with the profession mechanic.
The intrinsic issue with Daredevil is that it forces you to change your dodge. Not everyone wants to dodge further or be caught in extended animations. I personally found the dodges annoying because they were hard to utilize offensively while in melee and forced me out of range.
Having the Daredevil dodge be a slotted F3 or something would be better so that you can still utilize the normal shorter range dodge when you need it.
Rangers got that because they needed it. Ranger has never been relevant in dungeons or in tournament PvP. Thief, on the other hand, has always been relevant in PvP and usually relevant in dungeons. At its worst state ever, thief got MVP at WTS. At its best state ever, ranger was the only profession not present. Don’t even compare.
That being said, daredevil needs smoother animations and non-DD thief needs serious condition cleanse and more ways to mitigate AoE damage so that they can have better team fight presence and be better equipped to handle certain setups in 1v1.
Elementalist is glassy?
How many eles in pvp have zerker amulet?
Underworld Vabbi 1.5yr
It is actually very simple: “our” dev went for balance, other devs went for powercreep/cool stuff + they don’t communicate apprently. So here we go, got short end of the balance stick so to say.
Maybe “our” dev just isn’t as capable as others are. I, personally, am leaning towards that kind of thinking more and more as I see the lack of communication and class improvements, weird update choices and pitiful elite we are about to get.
Does he even play as a Thief?
Putting and leaving CiS in grandmaster wasn’t balance it just turned D/D thieves into lootbags. And that should’ve been obvious by seeing it on paper – we knew it when we saw it.
Mr Putin, What do you think about this thief HoT situation?
I’m in tears, laughing at this thought:
In a new, awesome HoT Raid, massive AOE damage incomming, on Teamspeak:
Raid Lead: “Alright everyone bunker down, pop CD’s. Thiefs burn your dodges and initiative bar”
Guard: “Really?”
Raid Lead: “Ya”
Guard: “They burn their entire initiative bar? To evade all this I take it?”
Raid Lead: “Ya”
—As Thiefs flail about trying to evade it all…
Everyone not a Thief: “BAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!”
“No valid path to target” – Thief life (Dragonbrand)
(edited by Khazik.8052)
I play with three eles on a regular basis. They all go full cele
Angelina is free game again.
Crystal Desert
Crystal Desert
Mr Putin, What do you think about this thief HoT situation?
I’m in tears, laughing at this thought:
In a new, awesome HoT Raid, massive AOE damage incomming, on Teamspeak:
Raid Lead: “Alright everyone bunker down, pop CD’s. Thiefs burn your dodges and initiative bar”
Guard: “Really?”
Raid Lead: “Ya”
Guard: “They burn their entire initiative bar? To evade all this I take it?”
Raid Lead: “Ya”
—As Thiefs flail about trying to evade it all…
Everyone not a Thief: “BAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!”
Thief dies anyway because apparently you cant dodge all damage (thanks for that lovely piece of info during the twitch stream…)
DD is basket case and probably wont land a raid spot nearly as easily as other classes who just provide more than thieves do in their current state :/
Mr Putin, What do you think about this thief HoT situation?
I’m in tears, laughing at this thought:
In a new, awesome HoT Raid, massive AOE damage incomming, on Teamspeak:
Raid Lead: “Alright everyone bunker down, pop CD’s. Thiefs burn your dodges and initiative bar”
Guard: “Really?”
Raid Lead: “Ya”
Guard: “They burn their entire initiative bar? To evade all this I take it?”
Raid Lead: “Ya”
—As Thiefs flail about trying to evade it all…
Everyone not a Thief: “BAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!”Thief dies anyway because apparently you cant dodge all damage (thanks for that lovely piece of info during the twitch stream…)
DD is basket case and probably wont land a raid spot nearly as easily as other classes who just provide more than thieves do in their current state :/
Basket Case OP though. :o We’d never lose.
| Fort Aspenwood (NA): Sylvari Daredevil Thief Main: All Classes 80. |
Please Remove/Fix Thief Trait: “Last Refuge.”
“Hard to Catch” is a Horrible and Useless Trait. Fixed 6/23/15. Praise Dwayna.
Thief dies anyway because apparently you cant dodge all damage (thanks for that lovely piece of info during the twitch stream…)
You do understand what was said was EVERYONE DIES unless they bring more active healing somewhere in the party composition, right?
And depending on how powerful or skilled your healing contingent is EVERYONE may want to back away from the ’Zerker gear and invest in a little more sustain via Toughness or Heal Power.
“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
Thief dies anyway because apparently you cant dodge all damage (thanks for that lovely piece of info during the twitch stream…)
You do understand what was said was EVERYONE DIES unless they bring more active healing somewhere in the party composition, right?
And depending on how powerful or skilled your healing contingent is EVERYONE may want to back away from the ’Zerker gear and invest in a little more sustain via Toughness or Heal Power.
So thief’s survivability is regulated to other people because we can’t mitigate damage ourselves? We already have super limited party support outside of SR and Venome share so i’m not sure what your on about?
So thief’s survivability is regulated to other people because we can’t mitigate damage ourselves? We already have super limited party support outside of SR and Venome share so i’m not sure what your on about?
Not Thief. EVERYBODY. If you’re not bringing healing in some form, then party wipe.
That healing can be coming from the thief. Everybody has options to self-sustain that go beyond dodges and your simple self-heal. But somebody is gonna have to actually bring those things in the future, either for themselves or for their teammates so those teammates can stay in hard hitting configurations.
The Thief is not being singled out and the Daredevil is not being singled out. “You won’t be able to dodge all the damage” is a very broad statement and it impacts every profession and party composition in particular. Because if you can’t dodge it all you’ll either need extra heals from yourself or the guy next to you. And you might want to look at where you can squeeze in a little more Toughness.
“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
So thief’s survivability is regulated to other people because we can’t mitigate damage ourselves? We already have super limited party support outside of SR and Venome share so i’m not sure what your on about?
Not Thief. EVERYBODY. If you’re not bringing healing in some form, then party wipe.
That healing can be coming from the thief. Everybody has options to self-sustain that go beyond dodges and your simple self-heal. But somebody is gonna have to actually bring those things in the future, either for themselves or for their teammates so those teammates can stay in hard hitting configurations.
The Thief is not being singled out and the Daredevil is not being singled out. “You won’t be able to dodge all the damage” is a very broad statement and it impacts every profession and party composition in particular. Because if you can’t dodge it all you’ll either need extra heals from yourself or the guy next to you. And you might want to look at where you can squeeze in a little more Toughness.
Ok but read what I just said what exactly does the thief bring that TRULY contributes to this group survivability? Stealth (primarily SR) with help from the Shadow Arts tree? Most classes can stealth/group stealth so outside of the regen we don’t bring much. If we get loaded on condi’s, we die, boss does a big unevadable move after sending out a series of AoE’s and we are somehow too far away to receive some kind of protection, we die.
The thing about thief survivability in PvE up to this point is that it is almost entirely been relegated to dodging mechanics well and timing your attacks. We’re now finding out that that will not be the case in HoT especially in Raid Content.
Your solution suggests again that the thiefs survivability hinges on the group which is true, but guess what people flub up and if a thief flubs up its usually an immediate game over for the thief…
A Venomshare build is the only potential healing/support build a Thief can really play in PvE, and it has a lot of major problems right now. Fixable problems, but problems nonetheless. It’s a little baffling as to why Eles got their aura range increased in Tuesday’s patch, but Venomous Aura was left untouched.
To be far:
Well our defense can get pretty high with PVT + 25% damage reduction trait on stealth + Protection from a external source (this is a raid of 10 players after all)
Point is, wth can we do without Crit% and CritDmg for the rest of the Raid tough.
C%D + 100% crit backstab?
To be far:
Well our defense can get pretty high with PVT + 25% damage reduction trait on stealth + Protection from a external source (this is a raid of 10 players after all)
Point is, wth can we do without Crit% and CritDmg for the rest of the Raid tough.
C%D + 100% crit backstab?
Yea, we trade way to much damage to arguably provide decent support outside of a venom share build, and even then our raw damage just took a huge hit :/
So thief’s survivability is regulated to other people because we can’t mitigate damage ourselves? We already have super limited party support outside of SR and Venome share so i’m not sure what your on about?
Not Thief. EVERYBODY. If you’re not bringing healing in some form, then party wipe.
That healing can be coming from the thief. Everybody has options to self-sustain that go beyond dodges and your simple self-heal. But somebody is gonna have to actually bring those things in the future, either for themselves or for their teammates so those teammates can stay in hard hitting configurations.
The Thief is not being singled out and the Daredevil is not being singled out. “You won’t be able to dodge all the damage” is a very broad statement and it impacts every profession and party composition in particular. Because if you can’t dodge it all you’ll either need extra heals from yourself or the guy next to you. And you might want to look at where you can squeeze in a little more Toughness.
Ok but read what I just said what exactly does the thief bring that TRULY contributes to this group survivability? Stealth (primarily SR) with help from the Shadow Arts tree? Most classes can stealth/group stealth so outside of the regen we don’t bring much. If we get loaded on condi’s, we die, boss does a big unevadable move after sending out a series of AoE’s and we are somehow too far away to receive some kind of protection, we die.
The thing about thief survivability in PvE up to this point is that it is almost entirely been relegated to dodging mechanics well and timing your attacks. We’re now finding out that that will not be the case in HoT especially in Raid Content.
Your solution suggests again that the thiefs survivability hinges on the group which is true, but guess what people flub up and if a thief flubs up its usually an immediate game over for the thief…
Stealth is the best aggro management tool in the game. An invisible ally has no further attacks launched at them. Considering this, shadow refuge can be considered a 10 second immunity to targeted attacks, affecting up to 5 people. Also in shadow arts anyone in stealth gets a 25% damage reduction.
You wouldn’t want to heal anyway. Druids take care of that. What you can do is contribute to projectile management (dagger storm and smokescreen), endurance recovery (bountiful theft + signet of agility), blind spam (pistol, smokescreen), near permanent weakness and cripple (sword auto, additional traits/skills), ninja rezzing (shadow arts), stealth shenanigans in general, boon stealing (when removing enemy might/fury/quickness/retaliation), and my own personal favorite: evade tanking.
That whole “you can’t dodge it all” thing is propaganda. The amount of active defenses between classes varies exponentially, so the amount to which our class can “dodge” is not nearly the concern. Likewise, aside from group support the thief can have very high personal healing that scales up depending on how many enemies you can hit. With Signet of Malice and Invigorating precision, you’ll easily be recovering 700 HP per attack, giving thieves a massive amount of regen.
So, taking in a weapon dodge every 4 seconds + additional dodges via utilities and endurance + highest endurance recovery in the game… think about the other classes. Is the elementalist really going to do better? I know for certain that when dungeon running my ele dies a whole lot more than my thief. After arcane shield and burning retreat, I have to sit back and hope that my range keeps me alive. Mostly it doesn’t, given champ’s unnatural attraction to me. Is guard going to do better? know for certain that my guard dies in dungeons far more than my thief does. Sure, the guard can run mace/shield with retreat, shelter, and renewed focus for a lot of personal blocks, but then what else is the Guard doing other than trying to stay alive? Paltry group heals and a condi cleanse?
My glass cannon thief carries pugs. And not by soloing content. The defenses it provides are so strong it can keep a group of random, uncoordinated players alive through thick and thin.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Stealth is the best aggro management tool in the game. An invisible ally has no further attacks launched at them. Considering this, shadow refuge can be considered a 10 second immunity to targeted attacks, affecting up to 5 people. Also in shadow arts anyone in stealth gets a 25% damage reduction.
Unless the NPCs still follow you while you’re stealthed – common in wvw. Also it doesn’t protect the other members or your party if they aren’t thieves who are traited in SA (you made it sound like it would protect everybody)
My glass cannon thief carries pugs. And not by soloing content. The defenses it provides are so strong it can keep a group of random, uncoordinated players alive through thick and thin.
If people know shadow refuge, that is. If they’re uncoordinated to start with… good luck with that.
But in general you’re right, if I will buy HoT and participate in raids I likely will still be doing so as a zerker thief (in the end I survive in wvw zergs already, don’t think that it can get worse) but all of that doesn’t mean that anet shouldn’t rework thief as they’ve proven to not care about our class by introducting reveal stuff and not giving us anything in exchange, so I don’t really count on them thinking about thief when designing new content.
Stealth is the best aggro management tool in the game. An invisible ally has no further attacks launched at them. Considering this, shadow refuge can be considered a 10 second immunity to targeted attacks, affecting up to 5 people. Also in shadow arts anyone in stealth gets a 25% damage reduction.
Unless the NPCs still follow you while you’re stealthed – common in wvw. Also it doesn’t protect the other members or your party if they aren’t thieves who are traited in SA (you made it sound like it would protect everybody)
My glass cannon thief carries pugs. And not by soloing content. The defenses it provides are so strong it can keep a group of random, uncoordinated players alive through thick and thin.
If people know shadow refuge, that is. If they’re uncoordinated to start with… good luck with that.
But in general you’re right, if I will buy HoT and participate in raids I likely will still be doing so as a zerker thief (in the end I survive in wvw zergs already, don’t think that it can get worse) but all of that doesn’t mean that anet shouldn’t rework thief as they’ve proven to not care about our class by introducting reveal stuff and not giving us anything in exchange, so I don’t really count on them thinking about thief when designing new content.
Bolded, couldnt agree more, SR relies on coordination and timing; if timed wrong you’ll die while waiting to be full stealthed, this isnt helped when party member mistakes the duration of SR and steps out early.
But again that is essentially where our main party support ends (SR and Venom Share that is), scorpion wire is annoyingly still unreliable and smokescreen is our other support option to ranged counter(but considering almost everyone can do this better than we can I usually don’t use it unless its an absolute must). Stealth revives are great when they can be done but usually what originally downed the person is probably still attacking them in that downed state putting us at increased risk of death to attempt to save them. Reveal changes have also made stealth upkeep a pain so there goes our self-protection and blind isnt NEARLY as reliable as it once was.
Dont get me wrong you made some great points Blood, I too have carried parties utilizing thiefs superior evasiveness and tactical attack strategy, but of all the classes seems like Necro has passed the baton of most selfish class to us :/
Good point on Ele, but dont they typically just easy mode range attack so they don’t die fast? Unlike us(outside of P/P) they can hit HARD at range.
New mechanics:
Guardian – Virtues that project physically in the world
Revenant – Channel a dragon! also a pbaoe that makes boons last longer
Warrior – Fire empowered berserk burst skills
Engineer – Mechanically assisted range finisher and reviver
Ranger – God like healing
Elementalist – Fire tornados, water bubble, lightning striking , earth quake riding madness
Mesmer – Time travel
Necromancer – Improved demonic stateThief – dodges …..
“Guardian – Virtues that project physically in the world”
please….. imo we are both kurled.. plus, trust me, I’ll swap trashy trap for your elite or your 15s block/break stun immediatly…
(edited by rbbthole.9074)
They didn’t say everyone has to be support.
Underworld Vabbi 1.5yr
Stealth is the best aggro management tool in the game. An invisible ally has no further attacks launched at them. Considering this, shadow refuge can be considered a 10 second immunity to targeted attacks, affecting up to 5 people. Also in shadow arts anyone in stealth gets a 25% damage reduction.
Unless the NPCs still follow you while you’re stealthed – common in wvw. Also it doesn’t protect the other members or your party if they aren’t thieves who are traited in SA (you made it sound like it would protect everybody)
It is very easy to stealth allies. Blast finisher in a smoke field, shadow refuge, blinding powder, and merciful ambush all do it. Likewise, I’ve found in dungeons that enemies will frequently not attack NPCs that are running with you. Why? Don’t know. If you are referring to Resilience of Shadows, I’m certain that applies to all stealth effects, even to other allies, given its wording.
My glass cannon thief carries pugs. And not by soloing content. The defenses it provides are so strong it can keep a group of random, uncoordinated players alive through thick and thin.
If people know shadow refuge, that is. If they’re uncoordinated to start with… good luck with that.
But in general you’re right, if I will buy HoT and participate in raids I likely will still be doing so as a zerker thief (in the end I survive in wvw zergs already, don’t think that it can get worse) but all of that doesn’t mean that anet shouldn’t rework thief as they’ve proven to not care about our class by introducting reveal stuff and not giving us anything in exchange, so I don’t really count on them thinking about thief when designing new content.
Shadow Refuge is actually good for uncoordinated players, too. Stealth immediately causes the enemy to de-aggro and target someone else, which is enough to save most players lives.
That said, I do think base thief could use some buffs. Mostly the acrobatics line, but a few tweaks to sword, offhand dagger, and deathb lossom.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.