Guild Wars 2

Rayya.2591:

. my volley hit for 7000 damage on bosses in dungeons , while my Hb from greatsword hit 11000 and is considered top damage skill. that is without any rifle specific build.

This is the same flawed logic that makes people think Unload is a good DPS skill. HB and Volley have long channels, they’re not particularly good DPS. Warriors can do good DPS, but Volley/HB signet warriors are much worse than they think they are.

Good example of why the community thinks they need warriors and guardians though, most people have no idea what they’re doing aside from looking at big numbers.

Ensign.2189:

You’re better off avoiding those groups demanding a pug guardian or warrior in 20+; the vast majority of pug guardians and warriors I’ve gotten in that range have sat back with a rifle / longbow / scepter the entire run and were substantially worse than a necro/mes/ele I could have gotten.

If people don’t know how to survive without a heavy then there’s a major problem there already. ;/

Tulisin.6945:

Rayya.2591:

. my volley hit for 7000 damage on bosses in dungeons , while my Hb from greatsword hit 11000 and is considered top damage skill. that is without any rifle specific build.

This is the same flawed logic that makes people think Unload is a good DPS skill. HB and Volley have long channels, they’re not particularly good DPS. Warriors can do good DPS, but Volley/HB signet warriors are much worse than they think they are.

Good example of why the community thinks they need warriors and guardians though, most people have no idea what they’re doing aside from looking at big numbers.

you might be right, i always keep the agro in my party, but in your opinion my damage is lower compared with others.
at the inquest fractals i usualy take 2 golems solo before rest of party take the other 3. Ofc you know better. volley got an 2,1/2 seconds channel , auto attack 3/4 seconds.
for you i made an test . same mob in sPvP -chieftan Utahein -you can make it aswell
test was made with same build – tanky build
rifle only 1’st skill 34 seconds
rifle 1’st skill and volley 21 seconds

Rayya.2591:

you might be right, i always keep the agro in my party,

You also don’t understand that GW2’s aggro is not based solely on damage output.

And your simplistic test only shows that volley does more DPS than rifle auto attack, which isn’t at all surprising for a bleed-based auto attack, especially if you’re specced into volley (even with a “tanky” build).

So, here’s an excellent example of a bad warrior that gets by because warriors aren’t punished nearly as harshly for having a poor player.

Tulisin.6945:

Rayya.2591:

you might be right, i always keep the agro in my party,

You also don’t understand that GW2’s aggro is not based solely on damage output.

And your simplistic test only shows that volley does more DPS than rifle auto attack, which isn’t at all surprising for a bleed-based auto attack, especially if you’re specced into volley (even with a “tanky” build).

So, here’s an excellent example of a bad warrior that gets by because warriors aren’t punished nearly as harshly for having a poor player.

i do not need insults from an so self – called pro player like you. I am the bad warrior cause i don’t wanna carry pug thieves like you in fractals, and cause i smash 2 thieves like you same time in wvw. Now please go drag own conclusions bassed on facts.
It is like 7-th time i proved you , that you are wrong and only spam on forums. Come with facts please.

Rayya.2591:

an pug warrior with rifle , with proper traits will outdamage any other class sir on single target. my volley hit for 7000 damage on bosses in dungeons , while my Hb from greatsword hit 11000 and is considered top damage skill. that is without any rifle specific build.
an pug guardian with scepter / focus is the best tank , for your information
or what you espect ? greatsword tank guardian ? hammer vs bosses , sir please ….
he will imobilize single target , aoe it while he can dodge or move away and buff all party memebers with regeneration.
Fact is that guardians , elementarists and warriors are most efficient classes in dungeons. That doesen’t mean you will not find good thieves, but only on high lvl fractals.
excuse me cause i don’t share your oppinion but i , as rest of 98 % of population prefer an pug guardian /warrior in exchange of an pug thief

7k volley and 11k hb aren’t even high. My unload and pistol whip do about 8k dmg and that’s without any bonus from deadly arts. Your 100b should do about 20k+ damage. And rifle is bad with greatsword, it’s autoattack is condition based so you’re forced to use only volley and kill shot to do any kind of damage. Better take axe/mace.

Also, guardian with scepter/focus is the best tank? Seriously? This game needs tanks? Guardian with scepter is the waste of party slot. Last time I had “tanks” in dungeons they were doing 3 times less damage and dying with same frequency as burst specs.

The survivability of warriors and guardians lessen at higher fractals, they’re still great but that has more to do with what else they can bring (excellent support in forms of boons, group condition removal and healing) in addition to very high damage. At ca 20-30 they have great survivability but look at some videos of 40+ and it’s about damage avoidance for everyone. I have a d/d+sb condition thief and while I can’t burst as high as a BS build I can stay alive and my damage will continue even when I help revive someone else. (I prefer to bring my AH guardian or shout warrior though)

Regarding thieves dying more often than (most) other classes; it kinda seems a karmic joke for all the times thieves have told other classes that avoiding BS is a l2dodge issue

Ah OP dude, you made the mistake of playing PvE. Alas the PvP is not much better, but it is awesome for a while. Ima take your grandpas style

I mostly stopped playing because I got bored of literally carrying pugs through dungeons on my full zerk thief. You get hit, you lose. You don’t get hit, you win. This was meant to be this kind of game. ANY, absolutely ANY player taking serious damage is a point of fail.
It just happened to be that thieves need less hits to go down.
And I will mention P/P again. Its damage IS NOT LOW. And strongest point of it is VOLUME of hits. Unless you run without proper food like a typical MF pugger.

haviz.1340:

Rayya.2591:

an pug warrior with rifle , with proper traits will outdamage any other class sir on single target. my volley hit for 7000 damage on bosses in dungeons , while my Hb from greatsword hit 11000 and is considered top damage skill. that is without any rifle specific build.
an pug guardian with scepter / focus is the best tank , for your information
or what you espect ? greatsword tank guardian ? hammer vs bosses , sir please ….
he will imobilize single target , aoe it while he can dodge or move away and buff all party memebers with regeneration.
Fact is that guardians , elementarists and warriors are most efficient classes in dungeons. That doesen’t mean you will not find good thieves, but only on high lvl fractals.
excuse me cause i don’t share your oppinion but i , as rest of 98 % of population prefer an pug guardian /warrior in exchange of an pug thief

7k volley and 11k hb aren’t even high. My unload and pistol whip do about 8k dmg and that’s without any bonus from deadly arts. Your 100b should do about 20k+ damage. And rifle is bad with greatsword, it’s autoattack is condition based so you’re forced to use only volley and kill shot to do any kind of damage. Better take axe/mace.

Also, guardian with scepter/focus is the best tank? Seriously? This game needs tanks? Guardian with scepter is the waste of party slot. Last time I had “tanks” in dungeons they were doing 3 times less damage and dying with same frequency as burst specs.

1. ofc they aren’t high, i do not use an burst spec. The diference betwen warrior’s volley and thief’s unload is that warrior can go intro melle when he lost boss agro, use rush -100 b- whirlwind combo 20 k damage+ and he is again on range with 5 seconds weapon swap. If thief go in melle to do few backstabs he will have 10 seconds reuse on weapon swap and he will be out of initiative when he retreat
2. yes i do consider guardian tank. first hit he take -blocked by aegis – aegis give retailation and heal on removal. Next 3 hits are blocked by focus. at 50% guardian recive another free aegis +heal on removal + retailation. Tank in Gw2 is not like in other games where you could absorb tones of damage, Smite from scepter do fair damage, is not an channeling spell and will continue damage on targeted area even if you use other attacks or dodge

Rayya.2591:

1. ofc they aren’t high, i do not use an burst spec. The diference betwen warrior’s volley and thief’s unload is that warrior can go intro melle when he lost boss agro, use rush -100 b- whirlwind combo 20 k damage+ and he is again on range with 5 seconds weapon swap. If thief go in melle to do few backstabs he will have 10 seconds reuse on weapon swap and he will be out of initiative when he retreat
2. yes i do consider guardian tank. first hit he take -blocked by aegis – aegis give retailation and heal on removal. Next 3 hits are blocked by focus. at 50% guardian recive another free aegis +heal on removal + retailation. Tank in Gw2 is not like in other games where you could absorb tones of damage, Smite from scepter do fair damage, is not an channeling spell and will continue damage on targeted area even if you use other attacks or dodge

1. You have strange ideas about how fights look like. So you’re only meleeing when you don’t have boss aggro and just stay range if you do, right? No wonder there are so many warriors with Greatsword & rifle. For reference, an example: I have 4 warriors in Arah, here comes lupi fight and everyone uses rifle and poor ele (or thief) is at his feet trying to melee him! Hilarious sight. Not everyone plays like your average gs/rifle warrior (preferably with 5 signets).

My unload was just a reference, no sane thief is using p/p, it’s a bad weapon set.

2. How about a thief tanking few mobs while standing in black powder or using stealth skills to blind? Or just using evasion skill? Or an ele with focus and mist form being invulnerable for 7 seconds. Or necro with well of darkness and plague who can blind mobs in area for 25 seconds reducing incoming damage by 90%. You can mitigate tons of damage, not just 4 hits with your guardian.

Ichishi.9613:

And I will mention P/P again. Its damage IS NOT LOW. And strongest point of it is VOLUME of hits.

Its damage is lower than most every other weapon setup, so I guess that depends on your definition of low. Its hit volume looks great until you realize that Unload takes forever to fire off and your hit volume drops like a rock the second you can’t sustain the initiative any more. Even if you’re abusing the heck out of no-CD proc consumables it doesn’t make P/P good, and even then, P/P can’t even benefit from Skale Venom as a consumable.

haviz.1340:

Rayya.2591:

1. ofc they aren’t high, i do not use an burst spec. The diference betwen warrior’s volley and thief’s unload is that warrior can go intro melle when he lost boss agro, use rush -100 b- whirlwind combo 20 k damage+ and he is again on range with 5 seconds weapon swap. If thief go in melle to do few backstabs he will have 10 seconds reuse on weapon swap and he will be out of initiative when he retreat
2. yes i do consider guardian tank. first hit he take -blocked by aegis – aegis give retailation and heal on removal. Next 3 hits are blocked by focus. at 50% guardian recive another free aegis +heal on removal + retailation. Tank in Gw2 is not like in other games where you could absorb tones of damage, Smite from scepter do fair damage, is not an channeling spell and will continue damage on targeted area even if you use other attacks or dodge

1. You have strange ideas about how fights look like. So you’re only meleeing when you don’t have boss aggro and just stay range if you do, right? No wonder there are so many warriors with Greatsword & rifle. For reference, an example: I have 4 warriors in Arah, here comes lupi fight and everyone uses rifle and poor ele (or thief) is at his feet trying to melee him! Hilarious sight. Not everyone plays like your average gs/rifle warrior (preferably with 5 signets).

My unload was just a reference, no sane thief is using p/p, it’s a bad weapon set.

2. How about a thief tanking few mobs while standing in black powder or using stealth skills to blind? Or just using evasion skill? Or an ele with focus and mist form being invulnerable for 7 seconds. Or necro with well of darkness and plague who can blind mobs in area for 25 seconds reducing incoming damage by 90%. You can mitigate tons of damage, not just 4 hits with your guardian.

1. i do not do arah, i started fractals 4 days ago. Atm at lvl 20. Siting on melle vs some type of bosses is duable. but vs some bosses just will not work. you give example of 4 warrior and 5’th any other profesion.
Warrior got an skill called trow bolas – wich imobilize enemy for 4 seconds with 0 condition duration and an 20 seconds cooldown not trained. considering 4 warriors will time trow bolas , the champion will not be able to do an single hit on melle.
warrior got an decent mobility with gs and 5 seconds weapon swap.So consider that i can do my gs combo in 5 seconds then continue hit rb from range , wich you are not able to do with thief.
Regarding singets: i Use singet of rage – elite skill , and healing singet , wich i trained for to provide me 230 hp /second as pasive regeneration with adrenal heal 350 HP second, since i consider them best in slot. Situational i add singet of stamina in Pve at some bosses when constant dodge is necesarly.
As for the rest of utility’s i pick, depending on situation betwen : endurance pain , stomp, trow bolas , frenzy ,“for great justice”.
Not sure where you read that singets are bad for warrior , they aren’t best in slot utility’s but they are decent.
Anyway i am waiting for your google search ability’s to explain me what ability’s should use an above average warrior, since i belive that you do not talk from own experience.
2. i am not sure what kind of mobs you tank with your thief, maybe rabits , since you won’t tank many aoe damage with your blind.
3 since thieves are master of mobility , and supposed to deal great damage i assume you use singet of assasin, singet of shadows and shadow refuge cause is popular , but with 2 singets you will not compete with 5 singets warriors , sorry 4 you
4. Guardian got also an invulnerability skill for himself 3 seconds -5 trained and the bubble for 6 seconds where all ally’s can stay inside and enemy’s / projectiles cannot enter. Enough to be better tank then an mistform elementarist?
and 5. regarding arah : i can clear path till lupicus by myself if i try hard enough, do not compare fractals with arah, diferent storyes

Rayya.2591:

i assume you use singet of assasin, singet of shadows

Lol

There’s no way a thief could compete with a master signet warrior~

Rayya.2591:

-snip-

Reading your “assumptions” hurts eyes. I surrender, obviously I can’t compete with holy guardian/warrior duo.

haviz.1340:

Rayya.2591:

-snip-

Reading your “assumptions” hurts eyes. I surrender, obviously I can’t compete with holy guardian/warrior duo.

you make statements based on other ppls experience , without knowing the subject you talk about.
You blame warriors that use singets , but you don’t know active effects of that singets.
You invoke skill as blind to protect an entire party from damage. If you act like this you will not be able to compete with an guardian or warrior in dungeons. Thieves got own conner over there, and an well placed smokescreen shadow refuge can make the diference betwen win or lose in some situations. They can clean some mobs , thanks to ability to stelath 80% of the time, that are dificult for other classes,but they will not be able to tank more then trash mobs. They got condition removal only stealthed or sword main hand ,no protection buff, no stability or aegis. Life regeneration is constant only from singet of malice and food, from initiative or vennom’s is situational -few hits only and they got medium armor. So in order to surive you will have to constant stealth, wich will not keep mob’s agresion, How will you tank ?

Rayya.2591:

you make statements based on other ppls experience , without knowing the subject you talk about.
You blame warriors that use singets , but you don’t know active effects of that singets.
You invoke skill as blind to protect an entire party from damage. If you act like this you will not be able to compete with an guardian or warrior in dungeons. Thieves got own conner over there, and an well placed smokescreen shadow refuge can make the diference betwen win or lose in some situations. They can clean some mobs , thanks to ability to stelath 80% of the time, that are dificult for other classes,but they will not be able to tank more then trash mobs. They got condition removal only stealthed or sword main hand ,no protection buff, no stability or aegis. Life regeneration is constant only from singet of malice and food, from initiative or vennom’s is situational -few hits only and they got medium armor. So in order to surive you will have to constant stealth, wich will not keep mob’s agresion, How will you tank ?

Isn’t this a pot calling a kettle black? You obviously has no idea about thief condition removal and its survival skills. It’s an mobile class with a lot of evades built-in few skills and acrobatic tree partially refills your endurance with every dodge. Even autoattacks on dagger mainhand gives you 10% of endurance back. For a record, I have a guardian, I even have been playing him more than a thief, I know what guardian can do.

Can you stop trying to “tank” in this game, especially with your rifle?

And please, for the love of god, start using some kind of spell checker.

haviz.1340:

Rayya.2591:

you make statements based on other ppls experience , without knowing the subject you talk about.
You blame warriors that use singets , but you don’t know active effects of that singets.
You invoke skill as blind to protect an entire party from damage. If you act like this you will not be able to compete with an guardian or warrior in dungeons. Thieves got own conner over there, and an well placed smokescreen shadow refuge can make the diference betwen win or lose in some situations. They can clean some mobs , thanks to ability to stelath 80% of the time, that are dificult for other classes,but they will not be able to tank more then trash mobs. They got condition removal only stealthed or sword main hand ,no protection buff, no stability or aegis. Life regeneration is constant only from singet of malice and food, from initiative or vennom’s is situational -few hits only and they got medium armor. So in order to surive you will have to constant stealth, wich will not keep mob’s agresion, How will you tank ?

Isn’t this a pot calling a kettle black? You obviously has no idea about thief condition removal and its survival skills. It’s an mobile class with a lot of evades built-in few skills and acrobatic tree partially refills your endurance with every dodge. Even autoattacks on dagger mainhand gives you 10% of endurance back. For a record, I have a guardian, I even have been playing him more than a thief, I know what guardian can do.

Can you stop trying to “tank” in this game, especially with your rifle?

And please, for the love of god, start using some kind of spell checker.

for your record i got 700 + hours on thief, with 17000 kills on wvw and positive win /lose in sPvP
So explain me now about your constant condition removal outside stealth and sword main hand. ah an condition removal from singet of agility once at 30 seconds. Withdraw or hide in shadows will not provide condition removal only specific ones.
So what endurance refull we talk about ? the 3’rd hit from normal atack ?
at least warrior with rifle got an knockback ^^
Sorry for grammair, at least here you got an point, out of 4 posts

Rayya.2591:

for your record i got 700 + hours on thief, with 17000 kills on wvw and positive win /lose in sPvP
So explain me now about your constant condition removal outside stealth and sword main hand. ah an condition removal from singet of agility once at 30 seconds. Withdraw or hide in shadows will not provide condition removal only specific ones.
So what endurance refull we talk about ? the 3’rd hit from normal atack ?
at least warrior with rifle got an knockback ^^
Sorry for grammair, at least here you got an point, out of 4 posts

RfI coupled with HiS won’t remove only conditions like vulnerability. while giving you two more dodges. Shadow return cures 3 condition. Minor 15 trait in acrobatics gives you about 15 endurance with each dodge effectively lowering the cost of a dodge to 35 endurance. If you completely get swarmed with condition, get a sigil of purity/generosity. Now tell me about a warrior with constant condition removal, ability to “tank” and dealing tons of damage.

haviz.1340:

Rayya.2591:

for your record i got 700 + hours on thief, with 17000 kills on wvw and positive win /lose in sPvP
So explain me now about your constant condition removal outside stealth and sword main hand. ah an condition removal from singet of agility once at 30 seconds. Withdraw or hide in shadows will not provide condition removal only specific ones.
So what endurance refull we talk about ? the 3’rd hit from normal atack ?
at least warrior with rifle got an knockback ^^
Sorry for grammair, at least here you got an point, out of 4 posts

RfI coupled with HiS won’t remove only conditions like vulnerability. while giving you two more dodges. Shadow return cures 3 condition. Minor 15 trait in acrobatics gives you about 15 endurance with each dodge effectively lowering the cost of a dodge to 35 endurance. If you completely get swarmed with condition, get a sigil of purity/generosity. Now tell me about a warrior with constant condition removal, ability to “tank” and dealing tons of damage.

i asked you for condition removal outside stealth and sword main hand. You already point me 2 skills and RfI got an nice cooldown-60 sec ?. As well if you use hide in shadows you will lose constant hp regen from singet of malice.
Mending -25 sec cooldown , cures 2 conditions. Singet of stamina – cures all conditions. Shake it off – cures an condition to you and ally’s you can pick it as trait and utility. Solider runes . shouts cures conditions , and if you spec intro shouts they also heal , and got an good cooldown 20 seconds- 24
As well warrior is well known as hightest hp ingame class, conditions are not the big problems, specialy when you use lifesteal food and stay constant in battle.

Keep it coming, you are right, outside stealth and sword mainhand we have very poor condition removal. Perhaps Shadow’s Embrace could switch places with the dreaded 5 point Shadow Arts trait, Last Refuge. And SoM passive could remove a condition every, say, 5 hits while Withdraw becomes a signet with ‘Removes a condition whenever you dodge’ as it’s passive.

After hours of playing both warrior and a thief, I find that thieves are much better “preventing” your team from dying. The blind thieves provide can help reduce chances of the enemy attacking you and indeed proved its usefulness most of the time.

However, thieves are not meant for tanking. but they still can but not as efficient as other classes only with the right builds. Not that I don’t support thieves(I love thieves and it’s my main) but thieves are special compared to other classes, they have the ability to help revive downed ally safely

Stealth has been a useful mechanic in the game be it PvP or PvE. It excels if used correctly.

Until now, only a few class could get rid of aggro from oneself and those are classes that have stealth capabilities. As when compared to mesmers, thieve stealth skill are much better due to the low cool downs.

While warriors do actually excels at high damage output and have the ability to soak in more damage compared to medium or light armor classes , it does not mean that they are better than other professions. Each and every professions were made differently so that when they are combined, a solid group is made.

Though in the end, it depends on the player themselves. Thieves is a great profession and it still is although it can still be improved further. I don’t mind having them in my group as long as they do what they are suppose to do.

Ruin.3461:

Signet warrior, nothing to see here.

makes me wonder …. cause out of 100 thieves 99 use signet of shadows and 30 use second signet either assasin singet or the infiltrator’s signet
So detail your point , out of 3 utility’s 2 signets

Rayya.2591:

An good thief will stay in back and will do constant damage , will drop shadow refuge on downed ally’s , not safe it for himself, and switch weapons and utility’s anytime is needed.

Just like good warriors stay in the back with a rifle!

haviz.1340:

Rayya.2591:

An good thief will stay in back and will do constant damage , will drop shadow refuge on downed ally’s , not safe it for himself, and switch weapons and utility’s anytime is needed.

Just like good warriors stay in the back with a rifle!

is situational dude . There are some bossos that you cannot do on melle, or is not efficient to stay on melle at them. As an example i give you volcanic fractal , the last boss. or cliffside fractal, dredge fractal.

Rayya.2591:

is situational dude . There are some bossos that you cannot do on melle, or is not efficient to stay on melle at them. As an example i give you the last boss. or cliffside fractal,

What? It’s one of the few fractal bosses you can actually melee.

stof.9341:

Rayya.2591:

is situational dude . There are some bossos that you cannot do on melle, or is not efficient to stay on melle at them. As an example i give you the last boss. or cliffside fractal,

What It’s one melee.

wich one ? since you cut out of what i wrote ?
the last one in volcanic , or the first one in clffside ?
i am confused? ,

Rayya.2591:

wich one ? since you cut out of what i wrote ?
the last one in volcanic , or the first one in clffside ?
i am confused? ,

Cliffside fractal boss I mean. Well I do melee him often. It’s easier in in the last fight than the first though but the first is definitively doable.

Rayya.2591:

haviz.1340:

Rayya.2591:

An good thief will stay in back and will do constant damage , will drop shadow refuge on downed ally’s , not safe it for himself, and switch weapons and utility’s anytime is needed.

Just like good warriors stay in the back with a rifle!

is situational dude . There are some bossos that you cannot do on melle, or is not efficient to stay on melle at them. As an example i give you volcanic fractal , the last boss. or cliffside fractal, dredge fractal.

Since you brought up those 3 fractals, I don’t have any issue staying in melee 99% of the time (except dredge, as I’m the one pouring the pot over his head). You said you were around lv 20, I’m well past that. S/D thief, I use my SR when it’s needed, where it’s needed. I rarely use any signet out of SoM. I can tank most of the bosses for an extended period of time (non of this BS about “Tanking for 3-6 secs every 30+ seconds”).

Volcano Boss -> Big Red Circle that you don’t stand in. He does this at very regular intervals. Also has a very noticeable animation. Dodge this and melee your heart away.
Cliff side Boss -> Melee is easy when he is focused on other players…possible when hes focused on you. This boss can get tricky as he tends to turn around a lot at random intervals. You also need enough AR to stay in melee, but even with “less AR then recommended” you can melee the boss, just have a quick escape route ready.
Dredge Boss -> Melee away if hes not chasing you, otherwise you should be guiding him to the next dump site (this boss isn’t really a non-melee boss, but easier for everyone to range him while kiting).

A bad thief, like a bad warrior, will die to any boss he tried to face tank if all hes doing is standing there taking everything. A bad warrior however will be able to stay up a little longer then a bad thief (as it should be, you have access to more hp/armour).

I’m sorry to say this, but if you are using Rifle/Greatsword on your Warrior, with utility like Endure Pain, Frenzy and Bolas (I know, you probably don’t use them all at the same time)…you are probably not really helping your group at all. Yes you can take a few hits, no you will not be putting out a lot of damage.

As for your argument about conditions…why are you asking what source we have other then stealth? We can remove a minimum of 1 condition every 3-4 seconds. That’s much faster then Warriors or even Guardians. To top this off, when we remove a condition we can blind anything around us at the same time. Yes, it won’t avoid large AoE hits, but that’s what dodging is for. You listed a nice list of traits/skills a Warrior can take to remove conditions, so tell me this. How many of those do you have at once?

Now for healing. Thieves can take a skill that heals them for every point of initiative used. Add that to the Life Steal food (thieves have one of the highest attack rates in the game, but very very effective for them), and SoM and that = a very stable source of healing (while in combat I grant you).

But not of this matters really…SINCE THIS GAME WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR YOU TO BRING A STUPID TANK WITH YOU. All these posts for nothing…Do yourself a favour, find some people that know what they are doing and you’ll (probably) be able to run anything, with any build, with any class and be done before that group looking for 4+ Warrior/Guardians fills up their group.

End of line.

Topher- i am not really sure i understand your point, but what i understood from your post is : Thieves can do fractals and can be good at them. But the whole ideea of the topic is : Why should you invite an thief in fractals ? 80% of thieves in an fractal will be less efficient then any other class.
and i do not consider your build efficinet since as far as you explained it lacks DPS. Maybe you can detail it more , but 20 points in acrobatics and 10 points in Sa with an S/D build will only provide below average DPS. What do ppls look for is an fast daily party , they are not up to stay more then1 hour /daily at lvl 10 – 20. And most of ppls doubt an thief can help in accomplish that.

Fletch.3572:

Trying to figure out whats bad about a signet that passively gives you precision, and actively cures a condition in the group while refilling endurance >< Maybe I’m just that baddie everyone is talking about =|

Signet of Agility is pretty awesome. I’d drink an ocean of saltwater if you’re planning on taking any of this guy’s advice.

Well, guys, in the end, this topic would lead to saying that thieves are useless… You can’t expect a crab to walk straight because they are built not to walk straight right…

Rayya.2591:

Topher- i am not really sure i understand your point, but what i understood from your post is : Thieves can do fractals and can be good at them. But the whole ideea of the topic is : Why should you invite an thief in fractals ? 80% of thieves in an fractal will be less efficient then any other class.
and i do not consider your build efficinet since as far as you explained it lacks DPS. Maybe you can detail it more , but 20 points in acrobatics and 10 points in Sa with an S/D build will only provide below average DPS. What do ppls look for is an fast daily party , they are not up to stay more then1 hour /daily at lvl 10 – 20. And most of ppls doubt an thief can help in accomplish that.

The tanky build I was describing was to compare it with your tanky war. No matter the class, if you build your character tanky, you will obviously be doing less damage then the average DPS player. If this weren’t the case, then EVERYONE would always build tanky, cuz hey, tank + great dps?!

For the record, my build for fractals is 0/30/30/10/0, S/D + SB, full valk gear with ruby obs (although I think I may still have 1 or 2 Divinity Runes left), ruby acc, zerker weapons. This build can still “tank” most of the time when it needs to, while still putting out good numbers. I won’t be beating pure dps specs, but then again, I don’t expect to. My uptime on mobs/boss is high, and I’m normally one of the last people to go down.

I will agree, there are plenty of horribly Thieves, but no more then any other class. It’s the same reason most people avoid signet warriors. To me it screams I don’t want to deal with utility management (most, if not all signet warriors I see never actually use their signets).

This smells so much like poor design.
A particular class should never be left out from any activity, let alone endgame.
I constantly see topics about thieves being “overpowered”, and then nobody wants them in fractals because they’re “too weak”? Bah.

Topher.1684:

Rayya.2591:

Topher- i am not really sure i understand your point, but what i understood from your post is : Thieves can do fractals and can be good at them. But the whole ideea of the topic is : Why should you invite an thief in fractals ? 80% of thieves in an fractal will be less efficient then any other class.
and i do not consider your build efficinet since as far as you explained it lacks DPS. Maybe you can detail it more , but 20 points in acrobatics and 10 points in Sa with an S/D build will only provide below average DPS. What do ppls look for is an fast daily party , they are not up to stay more then1 hour /daily at lvl 10 – 20. And most of ppls doubt an thief can help in accomplish that.

The tanky build I was describing was to compare it with your tanky war. No matter the class, if you build your character tanky, you will obviously be doing less damage then the average DPS player. If this weren’t the case, then EVERYONE would always build tanky, cuz hey, tank + great dps?!

For the record, my build for fractals is 0/30/30/10/0, S/D + SB, full valk gear with ruby obs (although I think I may still have 1 or 2 Divinity Runes left), ruby acc, zerker weapons. This build can still “tank” most of the time when it needs to, while still putting out good numbers. I won’t be beating pure dps specs, but then again, I don’t expect to. My uptime on mobs/boss is high, and I’m normally one of the last people to go down.

I will agree, there are plenty of horribly Thieves, but no more then any other class. It’s the same reason most people avoid signet warriors. To me it screams I don’t want to deal with utility management (most, if not all signet warriors I see never actually use their signets).

Well my tanky war stats are without any food or boon :
3050 power / 36 critical chance (46 with food) / 88 critical power
2950 armor / 21.000 hp / 350 hp /second + food when i hit
arround 5-6 seconds stability (trait , not sure about duration ), 9 sec imunity to psihical damage trait +active, 2-3 imobilize break skills , and an pasive movement skill.
Combined with 2 disables -single target or aoe- depending on where i go pve ( only 1) /fractals sometimes 1 +frenzy or the great justice /wvw.
It is not an burst build, since my damage could go up with 35% if i would change traits
but is above average

Hermes.7014:

This smells so much like poor design.
A particular class should never be left out from any activity, let alone endgame.
I constantly see topics about thieves being “overpowered”, and then nobody wants them in fractals because they’re “too weak”? Bah.

It is poor design yes. The complaints about thieves being OP are for pvp (which might or might not be correct, what is true is that thieves are at the very least very powerful in pvp (spvp andwvw)). For dungeons though, thieves aren’t as powerful since the nature of combat in pvp and in dungeons is so different that with the current skill design a thief will most of the time not contribute as much. Are they bad? No. Are several other classes better? Yes. A split between pvp and pve skills might help alleviate some of the issues but the thief class could certainly do with a major overhaul.

Rainu.6871:

Are they bad? No. Are several other classes better? Yes.

I don’t think that has been proven by anything in this thread, but it is heavily dependent on your definition of “better”. A well played thief is the equal of any other well-played profession in several roles, but other professions do have wider options for roles and lower skill floors to effectively execute those roles.

Now, I believe it’d be accurate to say “the average thief is less powerful than the average character”, just because of how thieves scale with player skill. On a purely statistical basis, this means if you’re looking at inviting two people you don’t know, you can safely assume the thief is the weaker choice.

Well, every Thief I have grouped with hasn’t a clue how to utilize their class — PVP and PVE.

When I see D/D thief in my group, I simply roll my eyes. D/D thieves think they’re WoW Rogues, and they’re not.

Niim.9260:

In my experience doing pug fractals there are two classes in the game I cringe when I get in my group, thieves and rangers. Has nothing at all to do with the class, but the people behind them. Not sure why, but both of these classes attracts the worst kind of players. Rangers they do not want to do anything but stand in the back and plink. Most thieves they are either dying non-stop, or standing in the back doing sub-par plinking.

If you get a thief in your fractals that has a kitten spec, doesnt use smoke screen when its needed, etc… please nicely help them become better so we can all stop being treated like we are not helpful to a group, when we really are.

And how would you suggest a thief does his job as a DPS? Considering you get oneshotted in many fights, so if you imagine all theves have some kind of sick fetish which includes getting downed constantly, let me assure you it’s not true, the low survivability and the fact that they need to be in melee range kinda makes it hard to survive in many fights and the alternative is going ranged.
So how does that have to do with the players? I know people hate thieves in GW2 because of PVP and we see a lot of stupid crap made up about thieves, but this just tops it.

Yesterday I was doing a fractals run with pug party. The group didn’t do so well but we managed to complete the run. However there was a member of our party that for every single misfortune blamed the fact, that there are two thieves in the party and no guardians.
Thinking about it later and despite myself being one of the thieves, I came to a conclusion that indeed my profession may not be so great for fractals and doesn’t bring much in terms of party support and survivability.

tl;dr - If you were to choose the last member for your fractals party, would you take a thief or a guardian?

Konrad.9587:

Yesterday I was doing a fractals run with pug party. The group didn’t do so well but we managed to complete the run. However there was a member of our party that for every single misfortune blamed the fact, that there are two thieves in the party and no guardians.
Thinking about it later and despite myself being one of the thieves, I came to a conclusion that indeed my profession may not be so great for fractals and doesn’t bring much in terms of party support and survivability.

tl;dr - If you were to choose the last member for your fractals party, would you take a thief or a guardian?

Depends.

If I’m picking the last member of a PUG, I’d take the thief. I assume, generally with accuracy, that people in PUGs are pretty good at lying down, and that no matter how bad a thief is the one skill every thief in PvE knows how to do efficiently is SR the guy on the floor. Taking the thief usually means a bad group full-wipes less, whereas taking the guardian means the bad group just wipes slower.

If I’m picking the last member of a team in which i know the members? There’s where I’ll take the guardian. Even a bad guardian (and boy have I seen some bad ones!) has a multiplicative effect on group efficiency. When I know that every other member of the party can actually complete content without relying on an aegis-flavored crutch, then I know they’ll do it faster with the other 9000 boons that the random thief simply doesn’t have a way to apply. In addition, if I assume that all PUGs are bad (not true, but since we’re being hypothetical) and I then assume that this 5th guy is the worst player in the group… a bad guardian will at the very least waste less of my time on the floor than a bad thief.

In practice, however, I simply PUG anything and find myself entertained by the results. I’m not generally concerned with run efficiency, only completion, as I usually only do the daily, and often I find it more fun with bad players… because I get to show off and rescue them a lot.

I’m a thief. Usually always PUGing for fractals. SB is my weapon of choice. SR is my utility that makes me important. Obtained 8 ascended rings already. Have no problems.

My secret? I make the group.

well you are right i guess, but still it doesn’t excuse the fact that thief is not as useful as warrior or guardian in a party….

DanH.5879:

well you are right i guess, but still it doesn’t excuse the fact that thief is not as useful as warrior or guardian in a party….

Actually, the Thief is a great dungeon runner. While they don’t have the greatest support; they are a “fail safe” class. When people make those crucial mistakes, having a thief will go a long way.

Many people think theives are bad for dungeons because many go in with their berserker armor and get one shotted by monsters. They also have less support than other classes, most people only support with stealth.

Signet of Agility has its place. The main issue with it is that the majority of fights with conditions fall into one of two categories – fights featuring attacks that stack a lot of conditions at once, and fights featuring conditions that are re-applied constantly. Pulling one random condition off is fairly weak when you have four on you, and ripping the poison or chill off when it’s going to be re-applied a couple seconds later isn’t terribly valuable either.

It is very good in certain situations, however – I usually slot it in for the final encounter of the volcano fractal, for example, and is very nice for world exploration where there are several areas that’ll put minute long poisons and cripples on you.

I think the hardest part of a thief in dungeons is that you have to play off your teammates. You’re very strong in melee, but only if there are other strong melees in the group as well for you to play off of; you’re good if you can beat until you get aggro, drop it with stealth, re-position and continue on your way, but pretty bad if you’re the only other melee.

You’re honestly kind of weak in an all ranged set up (though not weaker than Warriors or Guardians), but in that sort of group you’re just kiting and stealth-ressing anyway. Mostly you just suffer from P/P being a mediocre set – Short Bow is strong and excels in AoE situations, but when you get down to hitting a single target you’re basically just another guy.

The fragility is fine – spec enough durability onto your gear to be able to take a hit, and make use of your ability to drop aggro and back out to heal up. Warriors might be able to take more hits, but they don’t have the luxury of dropping aggro and healing up every time they do – either their group is strong enough to roll through everything without trying, or it isn’t and they start inspecting the floor.

Outside some eles and, very rarely, guardians I do not want to see anyone outside berserker/carrion/similar gear in dungeons. And even for those eles/guardians it is healing gear.
Tanky stats do not contribute anything in pve and you should not need them anywhere to be able to survive.

My main is a THF. I do D/D and SB. I’m usually the last to die and the one who coordinates and hell of a lot more team-useful skills than most people.

usually 30/30/x/x/x the last few I change depending what I’m doing.
I nearly go full zerker on everything with a blend of runes.

In spite of going full zerker and being specced to do D/D, I don’t blindly D/D like an idiot. I go in for the kill with bosses and spike them down when less than 25% health, I split off of finish trash mobs or things that are getting AoE’d but people aren’t focusing. In spite of high numbers and such, I still will make sure to take Shadow Refuge and Smoke Screen. SS is seriously so awesome between the ability to invis yourself/others if near it with D/D (Situational and a bit sketchy to rely on though), blind with SB all over the place, and block projectiles, which, in fractals, pretty much is the most OP support move people in parties can take.

I find myself often doing a sizable amount of party DPS if that’s all I do, but I take breaks to actually position myself/SS/SR instead of being kitten and attacking all over the place going ZOMG DPSSSSSSSS.

I have to say, compared to war/necro, I have to maintain my attention a lot more to NOT die, considering I pretty much get 1- or 2-shot in 24+ fractals and in some dungeons.

I guess my point is (tldr):
A good thief is very very potent. But a bad thief is a HUGE liability. I like that sort of play. High risk, high reward. So when I see people going “Thf OP nerf plz” they sort of forget that any good player is OP. Good thieves just shine brighter than most…. except maybe good WARs (Or a good mes in PvP). Get rid of their spike, though… and yeah, then there’s really no reason to play ’em anymore in PvE. :/ And a huge increase in situations like this.

Rainu.6871:

…I’d say the problem is that the one of (if not the) most common builds, the afore mentioned berserker BS build, is good in open world pve and while leveling but is horrible in dungeons. For most other classes the more common leveling builds are all viable for dungeons and therefore they perform better.

I agree.

There’s really three problems at work creating a stigma against Thieves in dungeons:
1) Blinds can trivialize leveling, so most thieves build for damage because they simply don’t have to worry about survival while leveling. But champions all but ignore blinds, so thieves built for leveling are often the first to go down on just about every boss fight if they don’t have experience with them.

2) Dungeon mobs pass out a lot more condition damage and leveling Thieves spec’d for damage have close to the worst condition removal in the game. Again, this means more time on the ground in dungeons.

3) Thieves have a few really great group utility skills, but these skills are all but worthless while you’re leveling, so thieves don’t get much practice with them. And without practice, things like [Shadow Refuge] rezing can be difficult to pull off at first.

But you can counteract that stigma by simply explaining that you have plenty of dungeon experience and if they still don’t want you simply because you’re playing Thief, then you probably don’t want to be in their group anyway because they are noobs.

Anyone not playing thief should not be here tbh. Add the fact that ele/mesmer got buffed while the single fun build is defective cuz of a bugged trait + the backstab miss spam and you got all you need to quit. Atleast now CnD should apply 1 sec slow + no backstab miss or less initiative costs or smthin. Also GG on killing spike build in sPvP.