what do you think thief needs to be balanced

what do you think thief needs to be balanced

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

That mentality is what got everyone here to begin with though.

Until people step back and look at design-level decisions and stop asking for senseless buffs it’ll only keep getting worse and worse.

You’re part of the problem. You refuse to adapt to today’s game and litter this forum with your extremely wrong biased opinions. You lobby for nerfs on your own class due to the fact you want to win 1v1’s against certain builds using a YOLO d/d signet core thief build.

Should take your own advice mate

Yes, power-creeping the professions is me being part of the problem when requesting fair changes such that builds have inherent weaknesses. Yes, that is absolutely 100% logical because ANet totally agrees with that mentality, lol.

Not to mention this is coming from you of all people, the so-called mesmer player who frequently can’t get anyone in that subforum to agree with him for his own nerf requests.

And to say I only play signets, bro, “you don’t know me.” That’s just the build I’ve put the most time into and find the most rewarding.

(edited by DeceiverX.8361)

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

That mentality is what got everyone here to begin with though.

Until people step back and look at design-level decisions and stop asking for senseless buffs it’ll only keep getting worse and worse.

You’re part of the problem. You refuse to adapt to today’s game and litter this forum with your extremely wrong biased opinions. You lobby for nerfs on your own class due to the fact you want to win 1v1’s against certain builds using a YOLO d/d signet core thief build.

Should take your own advice mate

Yes, power-creeping the professions is me being part of the problem when requesting fair changes such that builds have inherent weaknesses. Yes, that is absolutely 100% logical because ANet totally agrees with that mentality, lol.

Not to mention this is coming from you of all people, the so-called mesmer player who frequently can’t get anyone in that subforum to agree with him for his own nerf requests.

And to say I only play signets, bro, “you don’t know me.” That’s just the build I’ve put the most time into and find the most rewarding.

I requested nerfs to game breaking mechanics on my own class. You request nerfs on under powered game mechanics on yours. I was clamoring for nerfs to chrono bunker which almost killed the game while you championed nerfs to D/P when thief was the worst class in the game.

You also fail to realize that this is a business to make money. So an xpac that has a new class and introduce new traitlines is going to be OP. You should have known it from the announcement because they have to make money.

In fact I’ll give you a 100% guaranteed correct advice. If they release a new xpac the skills/class will be OP as kitten

I don’t agree with it but it’s still a business

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Posted by: BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

One way they could make Thief more viable is to give them Impactful aoe skills like everyother class has….

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

Thief still has the best mobility, decapping is just a little part of what u can do. If thirf was a good dueler, he could just easily pick up favourable matches or avoid bad matchups/+1 abusing mobility, plus everything it can already do now. Focusing on decaps only is dumb if you can actually 1v1, and as thief you could easily force those 1v1s without any viable counterplay.

1st I don’t thief. I’m a neutral 3rd party who’s interest is strictly game balance. Realize this b/c it’s a key fact.

No the mobility of thief isn’t a big enough advantage in today’s game to justify it’s ineptitude in 1v1’s and skirmishing. The only thing a thief can do in today’s game is Decaps/+1. A team can EASILY shut that down.

You are balancing based on the history of thief not what is presently available. It’s time to drop your bias and realize you really do not have a grasp on what you are talking about.

Thank You.

Maybe youre the one that fails to realize the actual thief state. Time to drop your dumb attitude.
Cheers.

Pretty much classic “I got nothing” response you put forth there.

Have a nice day

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

You also fail to realize that this is a business to make money. So an xpac that has a new class and introduce new traitlines is going to be OP. You should have known it from the announcement because they have to make money.

I’m afraid that is quite accurate — it’s something I just don’t want to consider as one of the factors in their balancing the game. However, they don’t need to shoot themselves on the foot in doing so.

Let’s just assume that that is the case, that they are purposely making the new traitline OP in order to sell xpacs. So what would be the next traitline going to be? You can’t just keep making an OP traitline every time. Sure you might have players buying xpac, but there will be players who’ll see that as pay-to-win-scheme and just leave the game. Looking at the state of the game and their revenue from the last press release shows that their current ideology on xpacs, balance, profits, etc needs to be reassessed because obviously it’s not working.

What they need to do is nerf DD. Yes, that’s right, DD needs to be nerfed despite the fact that Thief is perceived to be the weakest profession. It is necessary in order to fix the profession. Lotus Dodge is obviously meant for DA, Dash is obviously made for Acro in addition to 3rd dodge, and Bound can easily be in CS. Staff can be unbound from DD. So after all these changes, we’ll have a strong Core traitlines and DD as an Elite that grant access to Physical skills. This way, no matter what Elite spec they come up with, it will simply by a flavor spec rather than a stapled spec.

In fact I’ll give you a 100% guaranteed correct advice. If they release a new xpac the skills/class will be OP as kitten

I don’t agree with it but it’s still a business

That’s bad business practice though and looking at their revenue it shows that it’s a very bad decision.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: Krysard.1364

Krysard.1364

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

Thief still has the best mobility, decapping is just a little part of what u can do. If thirf was a good dueler, he could just easily pick up favourable matches or avoid bad matchups/+1 abusing mobility, plus everything it can already do now. Focusing on decaps only is dumb if you can actually 1v1, and as thief you could easily force those 1v1s without any viable counterplay.

1st I don’t thief. I’m a neutral 3rd party who’s interest is strictly game balance. Realize this b/c it’s a key fact.

No the mobility of thief isn’t a big enough advantage in today’s game to justify it’s ineptitude in 1v1’s and skirmishing. The only thing a thief can do in today’s game is Decaps/+1. A team can EASILY shut that down.

You are balancing based on the history of thief not what is presently available. It’s time to drop your bias and realize you really do not have a grasp on what you are talking about.

Thank You.

Maybe youre the one that fails to realize the actual thief state. Time to drop your dumb attitude.
Cheers.

Pretty much classic “I got nothing” response you put forth there.

Have a nice day

Funny thing, I justified it as much as yours, maybe you just failed to see that too tho

M I L K B O I S

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Posted by: Ario.8964

Ario.8964

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

That mentality is what got everyone here to begin with though.

Until people step back and look at design-level decisions and stop asking for senseless buffs it’ll only keep getting worse and worse.

You’re part of the problem. You refuse to adapt to today’s game and litter this forum with your extremely wrong biased opinions. You lobby for nerfs on your own class due to the fact you want to win 1v1’s against certain builds using a YOLO d/d signet core thief build.

Should take your own advice mate

Yes, power-creeping the professions is me being part of the problem when requesting fair changes such that builds have inherent weaknesses. Yes, that is absolutely 100% logical because ANet totally agrees with that mentality, lol.

Not to mention this is coming from you of all people, the so-called mesmer player who frequently can’t get anyone in that subforum to agree with him for his own nerf requests.

And to say I only play signets, bro, “you don’t know me.” That’s just the build I’ve put the most time into and find the most rewarding.

I requested nerfs to game breaking mechanics on my own class. You request nerfs on under powered game mechanics on yours. I was clamoring for nerfs to chrono bunker which almost killed the game while you championed nerfs to D/P when thief was the worst class in the game.

You also fail to realize that this is a business to make money. So an xpac that has a new class and introduce new traitlines is going to be OP. You should have known it from the announcement because they have to make money.

In fact I’ll give you a 100% guaranteed correct advice. If they release a new xpac the skills/class will be OP as kitten

I don’t agree with it but it’s still a business

Regarding the nerfs advocated to d/p:
Just because a class is the worst doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have things overperforming taken down. It makes room for them to buff the class as a whole without the worry of “oh d/p is meta material so we can’t buff the rest of thief because then that build will get op”. It’s the same principle as nerfing bunker chrono just applied to a different extreme.

Yes, this is a business and sadly that means there will be decisions made for business not fun. However, their version of this practice is not sustainable and they will have to make some changes soon or the game will die. Balancing to the core game can actually draw some people in for buying the expac so they can expand their playstyle. Then it’s not a purchase of frustration so they are more likely to play it more and recommend it to friends thereby expanding the market that way and earning more revenue over time. Two different practices, 1 is easy and not sustainable and the other is hard af but very healthy for a game.

[Teef] Dragonbrand Thief and Engi main www.twitch.tv/ariodoesgaming and Ario Does Gaming on Youtube!

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

The numbers speaks for themselves.

Attachments:

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: Amante.8109

Amante.8109

We could quibble over what we think the Thief profession needs all year, but the truth is none of it matters. What the profession needs goes far beyond specific mechanical changes and into the realm of developer focus and attention it is not currently receiving. If playing Thief is integral to your enjoyment of the game (as it is for me), quit wasting your time. All the feedback in the world doesn’t matter if no one’s listening.

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Posted by: Jugglemonkey.8741

Jugglemonkey.8741

The numbers speaks for themselves.

Probably a daft question, but what are the numbers supposed to be speaking about? Player population? Number of thieves in game? Llama attacks in Moscow?

ANet needs to have a science teacher yell at them about the importance of axis titles haha xD

What they need to do is nerf DD. Yes, that’s right, DD needs to be nerfed despite the fact that Thief is perceived to be the weakest profession. It is necessary in order to fix the profession. Lotus Dodge is obviously meant for DA, Dash is obviously made for Acro in addition to 3rd dodge, and Bound can easily be in CS. Staff can be unbound from DD. So after all these changes, we’ll have a strong Core traitlines and DD as an Elite that grant access to Physical skills. This way, no matter what Elite spec they come up with, it will simply by a flavor spec rather than a stapled spec.

I can see where you’re going with that, but what happens if bound was in CS and dash in acro and you took both at once? As much as I dislike having grandmaster slots for that, from a coding perspective they need to be in the same tier of the same spec, or in none of them like ranger pets are.

Unfortunately, I don’t think nerfing DD will actually help at this point. Adding more options to do the same thing (defense, dodge, whatever) through subsequent elite specs just means we either get a more potent version of the original thing each time stuff is added (by combining like traits from two specs, see acro/DD dodge specs), a ton of unused skills, or both.

They could easily avoid this issue by doing what they promised and giving us something new with each elite spec, not just another evade focused line like they did with HoT. Reaper is a good example of doing it right, nerfing acro to give the three dodge functionality back with DD is doing it wrong.

That said, I still think there’s not much you could add to the thief without breaking it in some way, and as they seem to be only balancing around one or two sets currently the situation is going to get worse with each expac. I honestly think that the specialisation design is the single worst thing they did to their game for this reason.

To be “balanced” it needs to be restored to its 1v1, dueling strength in skilled play. To me that means reducing AA damage and improving most initiative based skills across the board. This also means reducing passive defensive skills/traits in the game.

This. So much this. The burst should come from timing a backstab/pistol whip perfectly, not from porting to someone then spamming autos with quickness.

Critical Kit, Thief.
Don’t follow me, unless you enjoy being chased by angry men with sticks.
Power Build Condi Build

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

You also fail to realize that this is a business to make money. So an xpac that has a new class and introduce new traitlines is going to be OP. You should have known it from the announcement because they have to make money.

I’m afraid that is quite accurate — it’s something I just don’t want to consider as one of the factors in their balancing the game. However, they don’t need to shoot themselves on the foot in doing so.

Let’s just assume that that is the case, that they are purposely making the new traitline OP in order to sell xpacs. So what would be the next traitline going to be? You can’t just keep making an OP traitline every time. Sure you might have players buying xpac, but there will be players who’ll see that as pay-to-win-scheme and just leave the game. Looking at the state of the game and their revenue from the last press release shows that their current ideology on xpacs, balance, profits, etc needs to be reassessed because obviously it’s not working.

What they need to do is nerf DD. Yes, that’s right, DD needs to be nerfed despite the fact that Thief is perceived to be the weakest profession. It is necessary in order to fix the profession. Lotus Dodge is obviously meant for DA, Dash is obviously made for Acro in addition to 3rd dodge, and Bound can easily be in CS. Staff can be unbound from DD. So after all these changes, we’ll have a strong Core traitlines and DD as an Elite that grant access to Physical skills. This way, no matter what Elite spec they come up with, it will simply by a flavor spec rather than a stapled spec.

In fact I’ll give you a 100% guaranteed correct advice. If they release a new xpac the skills/class will be OP as kitten

I don’t agree with it but it’s still a business

That’s bad business practice though and looking at their revenue it shows that it’s a very bad decision.

I question that you even play thief after reading this post. I literally stand here openly say I don’t play thief….yet it seems i know more about the class than you do.

Also I said I didn’t agree with the business practice but I understand it since EVERY MMO in history does it.

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

I requested nerfs to game breaking mechanics on my own class. You request nerfs on under powered game mechanics on yours. I was clamoring for nerfs to chrono bunker which almost killed the game while you championed nerfs to D/P when thief was the worst class in the game.

You also fail to realize that this is a business to make money. So an xpac that has a new class and introduce new traitlines is going to be OP. You should have known it from the announcement because they have to make money.

In fact I’ll give you a 100% guaranteed correct advice. If they release a new xpac the skills/class will be OP as kitten

I don’t agree with it but it’s still a business

Regarding the nerfs advocated to d/p:
Just because a class is the worst doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have things overperforming taken down. It makes room for them to buff the class as a whole without the worry of “oh d/p is meta material so we can’t buff the rest of thief because then that build will get op”. It’s the same principle as nerfing bunker chrono just applied to a different extreme.

Yes, this is a business and sadly that means there will be decisions made for business not fun. However, their version of this practice is not sustainable and they will have to make some changes soon or the game will die. Balancing to the core game can actually draw some people in for buying the expac so they can expand their playstyle. Then it’s not a purchase of frustration so they are more likely to play it more and recommend it to friends thereby expanding the market that way and earning more revenue over time. Two different practices, 1 is easy and not sustainable and the other is hard af but very healthy for a game.

Nothing that thief has is over performing in regards to the rest of the game. The fact these people are proposing nerfs to D/P b/c they have trouble fighting it thief v thief using d/d is hilarious at best. They want to nerf D/P b/c its better 1v1 vs D/D. In the grand scheme of things D/P thief is the worst class in the entire game bar none. Then you got other people who want to nerf daredevil b/c they don’t like fighting it with a core thief. WTF

This forum and all the thief mains who post here need to understand that thief v thief balance is not nearly as important as thief v game balance. Yes some weapons/traits are better for 1v1, PvE, or WvW, but in general you can’t balance the thief class for thief v thief b/c thief v game is literally Game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thief. Look at the entire picture before opening your mouths.

I play mesmer and I HATE/LOATHE/DESPISE condi chrono, but I play it due to it being the best build we got. Would I rather see power shatter meta over what we are using now? kitten yeah! But I also know its not Mesmer v Mesmer balance but Mesmer v Game. So when it was Mesmer >> Game I lobbied for nerfs to my own class as I should have. I didn’t make friends BUT mesmer got much needed adjustments that was for the good of the game. Would I have lobbied for those same nerfs if it was Game >> Mesmer. No I wouldn’t have.

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Posted by: Kawloon Fuathach.3807

Kawloon Fuathach.3807

The only thing that I so biasedly want changed right now is a reversion of Basilisk Venom back to Two Stacks, as opposed to just granting One Stack. Just reduce the Stun duration down to 1 second, hell, even 1/2 second, if that would get it changed back. I just want two unblockable attacks to help deal with all the block spam I keep encountering.

Wilhelm The Pursuer

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Posted by: kash.9213

kash.9213

Yes some weapons/traits are better for 1v1, PvE, or WvW, but in general you can’t balance the thief class for thief v thief

I agree with that, however, our elite is a strong upgrade more than a choice which I would also be fine with except it quickly fills in the gaps of what in general is our top weapon set. I’m fine with having an elite favor and complete a top weapon set but it frees that set to have more options within it’s meta where other sets tend to have to fine tune to a science just to hit a passable threshold bar maybe staff. I play casually so take my post as observation rather than an argument, at my skill level that is the constraint I feel. Were I at a higher skill level I’m sure opinion would vary.

Kash
NSP

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

The numbers speaks for themselves.

Probably a daft question, but what are the numbers supposed to be speaking about? Player population? Number of thieves in game? Llama attacks in Moscow?

ANet needs to have a science teacher yell at them about the importance of axis titles haha xD

lol, you have to follow the conversation to understand the context. But yeah, that was my fault not including the context.

My point is, the current business practice they are riding on doesn’t convert to high revenue as shown in the graph. QoQ, YoY are both down.

What they need to do is nerf DD. Yes, that’s right, DD needs to be nerfed despite the fact that Thief is perceived to be the weakest profession. It is necessary in order to fix the profession. Lotus Dodge is obviously meant for DA, Dash is obviously made for Acro in addition to 3rd dodge, and Bound can easily be in CS. Staff can be unbound from DD. So after all these changes, we’ll have a strong Core traitlines and DD as an Elite that grant access to Physical skills. This way, no matter what Elite spec they come up with, it will simply by a flavor spec rather than a stapled spec.

I can see where you’re going with that, but what happens if bound was in CS and dash in acro and you took both at once? As much as I dislike having grandmaster slots for that, from a coding perspective they need to be in the same tier of the same spec, or in none of them like ranger pets are.

I said those GM traits are obviously made for those traitline. I didn’t say that they should plug those trait into those traitline as is. Picking both can be programmatically conflicting, but that can easily be solved as simple as adding a toggle option on the skill bar which dodge you want to use — where the player can change it if they are out of combat. This way the Thief can be versatile without ever needing to respec all the time. This is not an idea I came up with, this is an idea that was suggested before in this forum that I think has merit.

Unfortunately, I don’t think nerfing DD will actually help at this point. Adding more options to do the same thing (defense, dodge, whatever) through subsequent elite specs just means we either get a more potent version of the original thing each time stuff is added (by combining like traits from two specs, see acro/DD dodge specs), a ton of unused skills, or both.

DD needs to be nerfed if they intend to add new Elite Spec in the future. There’s no other way if they want the next xpac to sell. If they don’t nerf DD, they will have to add a new Elite spec that is way better than DD, furthering the problem of power creep, otherwise the new Elite spec will be lackluster in comparison.

They could easily avoid this issue by doing what they promised and giving us something new with each elite spec, not just another evade focused line like they did with HoT. Reaper is a good example of doing it right, nerfing acro to give the three dodge functionality back with DD is doing it wrong.

Their refusal to get rid of Revealed limits their option in terms of expanding the Thief profession. How can they expand the Shadow Arts if they despises stealth? A lot of wasted potential. IMO, an Arcane Thief using an off-hand focus, who buff allies and steals buff, would have been more interesting than DD.

That said, I still think there’s not much you could add to the thief without breaking it in some way, and as they seem to be only balancing around one or two sets currently the situation is going to get worse with each expac. I honestly think that the specialisation design is the single worst thing they did to their game for this reason.

The Elite Spec is not a bad idea, their implementation of it is. The Thief would have been better off if they only add Physical Skill with DD and all other stuff that came with it was added to improve the Core traitlines.

The way they designed HoT unfortunately seems to look like it was designed as if it’s the last thing they would be doing before NCSoft dissolves ArenaNet — it just lack future xpac considerations. They just pour in everything in this xpac as if it is their last.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

It really all boils down to the fact HoT was rushed and incomplete. From elite specs to gameplay to combat mechanics and mentality to community considerations, nothing seemed to be really explored and considered deeply except for the reaper.

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

The decision to add Elite Specs and a new profession without fully understanding the existing Core professions is a very bad and stupid idea. Nobody seems to grasp what each profession does and without the most basic and fundamental understanding, we got DD for Thief. Even the Reaper suffered, but not as much as the Thief, which is an “afterthought” profession.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

It doesn’t really need a ton of understanding, though. It’s pretty easy to determine if a given specialization is superior to its core just by looking at the tradeoffs for taking it.

I just think the ideas were half-baked, considerations for the future not made, and the research not done to make them as successful as they could be. They were supposed to change the style of play or augment maybe some weaker builds, not provide blatantly superior options to the more powerful existing builds.

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

I know, that’s why I said just an understanding of the basics and the fundamentals, but it seems that is very difficult for them to grasp. This is why they also failed into perceiving what their future would be like. Their vision is very narrow and short-sighted.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: shagwell.1349

shagwell.1349

Taking away mobility does not delete the class. That “we are unplayable when, ..” stuff is ridiculous.
Thief has superior mobility, great damage and access to passive condi cleanse combined with a lot of cooldowns which can be used offensive and defensive. If you want to balance thief finally, you need to take some things of this options away. At the moment thief is a low risk, high reward class.

The only ones don’t see the thief issues are thief players, because the majority still thinks it’s their skill making thief playable and at the current balance state it’s the class that carries you.

[orz] below mediocre – we sponsor Arenanet
Piken Square EU, maybe soon on your server.

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Posted by: saerni.2584

saerni.2584

Not sure most thieves with a low HP pool and armor would agree with you.

I agree that Escapist’s Absolution is overpowered—much like diamond skin was—but that applies to most Elite Specs these days. Druids clearing 13 conditions on even a 15 second cooldown is huge in combination with healing.

Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
Thief (Daredevil)
Commandant of Pistol-Dagger and Apex Predator

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

Personally I do not think EA overpowered at all.

First and foremost we have to acknowledge it does little against a large number of builds that do not rely on Conditions. If I am facing a non condition build , my theif far better off with PI or with Staff mastery. If on staff that extra endurance from staff attacks is of much greater advantage than is EA and we all know how deadly PI can be in an interrupt build.

This eliminates well over half the population against whom EA is effective as the greater number of builds remains Power.

Next we get to those condition builds. EA is very good against these but hardly OP. The weaknesses of EA are two fold. One it is not a targeted cleanse and secondly it reliant on an evade to proc. Now against a opponent of lower quality the efficiency of this skill goes UP but as you face people who are better at their craft it becomes much weaker.

With last in first out an aware enemy player can ensure he applies a cover condition on an ongoing basis. This will force the EA into only cleansing that condition. On a thief as example applying ongoing cripples/blinds/ and vuln works wonders when facing the EA dodge thief.

It is also very easy just to stop ones attacks once the conditions loaded. I do this all the time when I face one of the EA cleanse type thieves. They can not avoid all of my Condi bombs and once I see them all go up on his bar, i just pull back and allow those conditions to wreak havoc. If said thief now has to evade in order to cleanse, which attacks or utilities he uses for the next while will be entriely predictable.

EA is not OP as it works only against Condition builds and as there ways an enemy can counter that cleanse ability. my thief using the old SE can be more effective cleansing Conditions via stealth (he does not have to worry about those cover conditions and there still few people that use reveals) then were he to switch to EA.

(edited by babazhook.6805)

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Posted by: Urejt.5648

Urejt.5648

All thief needs is dmg reduction from dash stacking in time. Also value should be increased fomr 10% dmg reduction to 20%.

Yo Hooj Jest Pole

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Posted by: saerni.2584

saerni.2584

Babaz, I agree you can do those things, I do them myself all the time. But the point is that taking that and escapist’s absolution will often result, with another traited cleanse, in a huge amount of condition cleanse.

If I am dueling a condition player, I can take Shadow’s Embrace in addition and be highly immune to conditions. Immunity is something I both enjoy and understand is frustrating to fight against.

Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
Thief (Daredevil)
Commandant of Pistol-Dagger and Apex Predator

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Posted by: Svarty.8019

Svarty.8019

what do you think thief needs to be balanced

  1. Cooldowns – like every other class has.
  2. Removal of Stealth – a broken mechanic in every game that has it.
  3. Two dodges, like everybody else has.

These may seem like nerfs, so obviously some compensation should take place. I leave this to the designers to design.

Nobody at Anet loves WvW like Grouch loved PvP. That’s what we need, a WvW Grouch, but taller.

(edited by Svarty.8019)

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

That mentality is what got everyone here to begin with though.

Until people step back and look at design-level decisions and stop asking for senseless buffs it’ll only keep getting worse and worse.

You’re part of the problem. You refuse to adapt to today’s game and litter this forum with your extremely wrong biased opinions. You lobby for nerfs on your own class due to the fact you want to win 1v1’s against certain builds using a YOLO d/d signet core thief build.

Should take your own advice mate

Yes, power-creeping the professions is me being part of the problem when requesting fair changes such that builds have inherent weaknesses. Yes, that is absolutely 100% logical because ANet totally agrees with that mentality, lol.

Not to mention this is coming from you of all people, the so-called mesmer player who frequently can’t get anyone in that subforum to agree with him for his own nerf requests.

And to say I only play signets, bro, “you don’t know me.” That’s just the build I’ve put the most time into and find the most rewarding.

I requested nerfs to game breaking mechanics on my own class. You request nerfs on under powered game mechanics on yours. I was clamoring for nerfs to chrono bunker which almost killed the game while you championed nerfs to D/P when thief was the worst class in the game.

You also fail to realize that this is a business to make money. So an xpac that has a new class and introduce new traitlines is going to be OP. You should have known it from the announcement because they have to make money.

In fact I’ll give you a 100% guaranteed correct advice. If they release a new xpac the skills/class will be OP as kitten

I don’t agree with it but it’s still a business

Regarding the nerfs advocated to d/p:
Just because a class is the worst doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have things overperforming taken down. It makes room for them to buff the class as a whole without the worry of “oh d/p is meta material so we can’t buff the rest of thief because then that build will get op”. It’s the same principle as nerfing bunker chrono just applied to a different extreme.

Yes, this is a business and sadly that means there will be decisions made for business not fun. However, their version of this practice is not sustainable and they will have to make some changes soon or the game will die. Balancing to the core game can actually draw some people in for buying the expac so they can expand their playstyle. Then it’s not a purchase of frustration so they are more likely to play it more and recommend it to friends thereby expanding the market that way and earning more revenue over time. Two different practices, 1 is easy and not sustainable and the other is hard af but very healthy for a game.

The problem is all of thief is UP including D/P

Lobbying for nerfs to anerf under powered weapon set is nothing but self serving and damaging to the class as a whole

The business is what is

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

Babaz, I agree you can do those things, I do them myself all the time. But the point is that taking that and escapist’s absolution will often result, with another traited cleanse, in a huge amount of condition cleanse.

If I am dueling a condition player, I can take Shadow’s Embrace in addition and be highly immune to conditions. Immunity is something I both enjoy and understand is frustrating to fight against.

Agreed but you now talking about taking two condition cleanses in order to make one more effective. This does not suggest either on its own as being OP. The point I make here is that were EA changed in any way (such as the ICD made longer) it becomes much less usable given it already limited as to what it can do. All of that evading so as to cleanse does come with a price and that very often a loss of effectiveness in combat.

Sometimes having to evade can cost you the fight.

I contrast that with my warrior who can throw up resistance at will. That applies to every condition meaning that even immobs and cripples do not work. The only real counter is to steal or corrupt the Resistance. Where virtually every class can work around EA , the ability to do something abot the resistance a warrior can throw up is limited . When my warrior throws his resistance up, combat and ability to do damage is not affected at all and he is not limited as to what skill/tactics he can use next.

I have a build using PI that uses Trickster and PR as main condition cleanses. Were it to drop DD and go SA it can also be all but immune to conditions, this without EA. Does that make trickster , SE or PR on their own OP?

(edited by babazhook.6805)

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Posted by: Alatar.7364

Alatar.7364

what do you think thief needs to be balanced

  1. Cooldowns – like every other class has.
  2. Removal of Stealth – a broken mechanic in every game that has it.
  3. Two dodges, like everybody else has.

These may seem like nerfs, so obviously some compensation should take place. I leave this to the designers to design.

If you would ask 100 Gw2 players a question: "What 3 traits define Thief or Daredevil profession in your opinion? " 103 of them would say: 1. No cooldown. 2. Stealth. 3. Having more dodges

And you would like to take all of those above away from Thief? No offense man, but you just made Thief in to old, dusty, unoriginal, not at all interesting trash can….godkitten …. trash can. That was complete nonsense, sorry.

~I Aear cân ven na mar

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Posted by: Cecilia.5179

Cecilia.5179

Personally I do not think EA overpowered at all.

First and foremost we have to acknowledge it does little against a large number of builds that do not rely on Conditions. If I am facing a non condition build , my theif far better off with PI or with Staff mastery. If on staff that extra endurance from staff attacks is of much greater advantage than is EA and we all know how deadly PI can be in an interrupt build.

This eliminates well over half the population against whom EA is effective as the greater number of builds remains Power.

Next we get to those condition builds. EA is very good against these but hardly OP. The weaknesses of EA are two fold. One it is not a targeted cleanse and secondly it reliant on an evade to proc. Now against a opponent of lower quality the efficiency of this skill goes UP but as you face people who are better at their craft it becomes much weaker.

With last in first out an aware enemy player can ensure he applies a cover condition on an ongoing basis. This will force the EA into only cleansing that condition. On a thief as example applying ongoing cripples/blinds/ and vuln works wonders when facing the EA dodge thief.

It is also very easy just to stop ones attacks once the conditions loaded. I do this all the time when I face one of the EA cleanse type thieves. They can not avoid all of my Condi bombs and once I see them all go up on his bar, i just pull back and allow those conditions to wreak havoc. If said thief now has to evade in order to cleanse, which attacks or utilities he uses for the next while will be entriely predictable.

EA is not OP as it works only against Condition builds and as there ways an enemy can counter that cleanse ability. my thief using the old SE can be more effective cleansing Conditions via stealth (he does not have to worry about those cover conditions and there still few people that use reveals) then were he to switch to EA.

This applies to 1v1, in any other situation, there are too many attacks flying around, and the thief can just spam evades and be immune to condis. It makes condi builds have 0 dps against thieves in a group fight.
Also, the argument of it only working on 50% of builds was the same one for Diamond Skin, a trait that was blatantly broken vs condi builds but useless against power builds.
Similarly, this trait is poorly designed because it makes conditions obsolete in team fights against a Daredevil. It needs to be toned down, but some compensation needs to be given when it is toned down.

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

Personally I do not think EA overpowered at all.

First and foremost we have to acknowledge it does little against a large number of builds that do not rely on Conditions. If I am facing a non condition build , my theif far better off with PI or with Staff mastery. If on staff that extra endurance from staff attacks is of much greater advantage than is EA and we all know how deadly PI can be in an interrupt build.

This eliminates well over half the population against whom EA is effective as the greater number of builds remains Power.

Next we get to those condition builds. EA is very good against these but hardly OP. The weaknesses of EA are two fold. One it is not a targeted cleanse and secondly it reliant on an evade to proc. Now against a opponent of lower quality the efficiency of this skill goes UP but as you face people who are better at their craft it becomes much weaker.

With last in first out an aware enemy player can ensure he applies a cover condition on an ongoing basis. This will force the EA into only cleansing that condition. On a thief as example applying ongoing cripples/blinds/ and vuln works wonders when facing the EA dodge thief.

It is also very easy just to stop ones attacks once the conditions loaded. I do this all the time when I face one of the EA cleanse type thieves. They can not avoid all of my Condi bombs and once I see them all go up on his bar, i just pull back and allow those conditions to wreak havoc. If said thief now has to evade in order to cleanse, which attacks or utilities he uses for the next while will be entriely predictable.

EA is not OP as it works only against Condition builds and as there ways an enemy can counter that cleanse ability. my thief using the old SE can be more effective cleansing Conditions via stealth (he does not have to worry about those cover conditions and there still few people that use reveals) then were he to switch to EA.

This applies to 1v1, in any other situation, there are too many attacks flying around, and the thief can just spam evades and be immune to condis. It makes condi builds have 0 dps against thieves in a group fight.
Also, the argument of it only working on 50% of builds was the same one for Diamond Skin, a trait that was blatantly broken vs condi builds but useless against power builds.
Similarly, this trait is poorly designed because it makes conditions obsolete in team fights against a Daredevil. It needs to be toned down, but some compensation needs to be given when it is toned down.

Thieves are the worst class in the game. Your argument holds no weight in the slightest.

You may personally have problems with thieves but players who are at the top end of the game do not. To nerf the thieves based on the lowest skill denominator would castrate any chance of viability thief has for real competitive play.

So instead of complain about thieves maybe you should practice on a thief to learn when they are vulnerable and then also put the practice into landing your skills during those times.

<edit>

Just to give the ppl who are calling for nerfs on thief. The ONLY thing I would nerf on thief is the leap finisher on Bound. After the removal of the aftercast on BP that allows for immediate dodge for completely uninterruptable stealth it’s the ONLY thing I would excuse being nerfed. I think removing that would greatly alleviate the D/P whining we got going on here, and open the door up for some compensation.

(edited by Azukas.1426)

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Posted by: Cecilia.5179

Cecilia.5179

Personally I do not think EA overpowered at all.

First and foremost we have to acknowledge it does little against a large number of builds that do not rely on Conditions. If I am facing a non condition build , my theif far better off with PI or with Staff mastery. If on staff that extra endurance from staff attacks is of much greater advantage than is EA and we all know how deadly PI can be in an interrupt build.

This eliminates well over half the population against whom EA is effective as the greater number of builds remains Power.

Next we get to those condition builds. EA is very good against these but hardly OP. The weaknesses of EA are two fold. One it is not a targeted cleanse and secondly it reliant on an evade to proc. Now against a opponent of lower quality the efficiency of this skill goes UP but as you face people who are better at their craft it becomes much weaker.

With last in first out an aware enemy player can ensure he applies a cover condition on an ongoing basis. This will force the EA into only cleansing that condition. On a thief as example applying ongoing cripples/blinds/ and vuln works wonders when facing the EA dodge thief.

It is also very easy just to stop ones attacks once the conditions loaded. I do this all the time when I face one of the EA cleanse type thieves. They can not avoid all of my Condi bombs and once I see them all go up on his bar, i just pull back and allow those conditions to wreak havoc. If said thief now has to evade in order to cleanse, which attacks or utilities he uses for the next while will be entriely predictable.

EA is not OP as it works only against Condition builds and as there ways an enemy can counter that cleanse ability. my thief using the old SE can be more effective cleansing Conditions via stealth (he does not have to worry about those cover conditions and there still few people that use reveals) then were he to switch to EA.

This applies to 1v1, in any other situation, there are too many attacks flying around, and the thief can just spam evades and be immune to condis. It makes condi builds have 0 dps against thieves in a group fight.
Also, the argument of it only working on 50% of builds was the same one for Diamond Skin, a trait that was blatantly broken vs condi builds but useless against power builds.
Similarly, this trait is poorly designed because it makes conditions obsolete in team fights against a Daredevil. It needs to be toned down, but some compensation needs to be given when it is toned down.

Thieves are the worst class in the game. Your argument holds no weight in the slightest.

You may personally have problems with thieves but players who are at the top end of the game do not. To nerf the thieves based on the lowest skill denominator would castrate any chance of viability thief has for real competitive play.

So instead of complain about thieves maybe you should practice on a thief to learn when they are vulnerable and then also put the practice into landing your skills during those times.

Your argument holds no weight in the slightest.
I can delete thieves 1v1 with my condi builds. It is rude to call somebody bad because you disagree with them. In the part of the game I play, thieves are often heralded as the best class, and they are very common.
However, it does not matter if I can time all of my skills to land during the evade frames if somebody else screws up and my entire burst is negated.

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

Personally I do not think EA overpowered at all.

First and foremost we have to acknowledge it does little against a large number of builds that do not rely on Conditions. If I am facing a non condition build , my theif far better off with PI or with Staff mastery. If on staff that extra endurance from staff attacks is of much greater advantage than is EA and we all know how deadly PI can be in an interrupt build.

This eliminates well over half the population against whom EA is effective as the greater number of builds remains Power.

Next we get to those condition builds. EA is very good against these but hardly OP. The weaknesses of EA are two fold. One it is not a targeted cleanse and secondly it reliant on an evade to proc. Now against a opponent of lower quality the efficiency of this skill goes UP but as you face people who are better at their craft it becomes much weaker.

With last in first out an aware enemy player can ensure he applies a cover condition on an ongoing basis. This will force the EA into only cleansing that condition. On a thief as example applying ongoing cripples/blinds/ and vuln works wonders when facing the EA dodge thief.

It is also very easy just to stop ones attacks once the conditions loaded. I do this all the time when I face one of the EA cleanse type thieves. They can not avoid all of my Condi bombs and once I see them all go up on his bar, i just pull back and allow those conditions to wreak havoc. If said thief now has to evade in order to cleanse, which attacks or utilities he uses for the next while will be entriely predictable.

EA is not OP as it works only against Condition builds and as there ways an enemy can counter that cleanse ability. my thief using the old SE can be more effective cleansing Conditions via stealth (he does not have to worry about those cover conditions and there still few people that use reveals) then were he to switch to EA.

This applies to 1v1, in any other situation, there are too many attacks flying around, and the thief can just spam evades and be immune to condis. It makes condi builds have 0 dps against thieves in a group fight.
Also, the argument of it only working on 50% of builds was the same one for Diamond Skin, a trait that was blatantly broken vs condi builds but useless against power builds.
Similarly, this trait is poorly designed because it makes conditions obsolete in team fights against a Daredevil. It needs to be toned down, but some compensation needs to be given when it is toned down.

Thieves are the worst class in the game. Your argument holds no weight in the slightest.

You may personally have problems with thieves but players who are at the top end of the game do not. To nerf the thieves based on the lowest skill denominator would castrate any chance of viability thief has for real competitive play.

So instead of complain about thieves maybe you should practice on a thief to learn when they are vulnerable and then also put the practice into landing your skills during those times.

Your argument holds no weight in the slightest.
I can delete thieves 1v1 with my condi builds. It is rude to call somebody bad because you disagree with them. In the part of the game I play, thieves are often heralded as the best class, and they are very common.
However, it does not matter if I can time all of my skills to land during the evade frames if somebody else screws up and my entire burst is negated.

Thieves are not the best class in ANY part of this game PvP, PvE, or WvW. The ONLY thing thieves are really good at is Fashion Wars 2 and that’s generally only as a human female thief.

I’m not saying you are bad nor is it rude to suggest that your problem with thieves is yourself and not the game since thieves being bad is the truth of the game. Now thieves currently have an advantage over necros 1v1 if the necro doesn’t have a lot of shroud, but you said you don’t have that problem so I can’t understand what’s your problem. You are upset b/c the thief is clearing conditions on evades in team fights, and go on to say they negate your condi burst b/c other ppl are being evaded.

Uhh you do know that they can only remove 1 condi per evade on a 1 sec CD. So if you condi burst them and have cover condis they are dead. By the time they can actually get to the damaging condis 3-4 seconds have passed and they are done for…..

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Posted by: Cecilia.5179

Cecilia.5179

Personally I do not think EA overpowered at all.

First and foremost we have to acknowledge it does little against a large number of builds that do not rely on Conditions. If I am facing a non condition build , my theif far better off with PI or with Staff mastery. If on staff that extra endurance from staff attacks is of much greater advantage than is EA and we all know how deadly PI can be in an interrupt build.

This eliminates well over half the population against whom EA is effective as the greater number of builds remains Power.

Next we get to those condition builds. EA is very good against these but hardly OP. The weaknesses of EA are two fold. One it is not a targeted cleanse and secondly it reliant on an evade to proc. Now against a opponent of lower quality the efficiency of this skill goes UP but as you face people who are better at their craft it becomes much weaker.

With last in first out an aware enemy player can ensure he applies a cover condition on an ongoing basis. This will force the EA into only cleansing that condition. On a thief as example applying ongoing cripples/blinds/ and vuln works wonders when facing the EA dodge thief.

It is also very easy just to stop ones attacks once the conditions loaded. I do this all the time when I face one of the EA cleanse type thieves. They can not avoid all of my Condi bombs and once I see them all go up on his bar, i just pull back and allow those conditions to wreak havoc. If said thief now has to evade in order to cleanse, which attacks or utilities he uses for the next while will be entriely predictable.

EA is not OP as it works only against Condition builds and as there ways an enemy can counter that cleanse ability. my thief using the old SE can be more effective cleansing Conditions via stealth (he does not have to worry about those cover conditions and there still few people that use reveals) then were he to switch to EA.

This applies to 1v1, in any other situation, there are too many attacks flying around, and the thief can just spam evades and be immune to condis. It makes condi builds have 0 dps against thieves in a group fight.
Also, the argument of it only working on 50% of builds was the same one for Diamond Skin, a trait that was blatantly broken vs condi builds but useless against power builds.
Similarly, this trait is poorly designed because it makes conditions obsolete in team fights against a Daredevil. It needs to be toned down, but some compensation needs to be given when it is toned down.

Thieves are the worst class in the game. Your argument holds no weight in the slightest.

You may personally have problems with thieves but players who are at the top end of the game do not. To nerf the thieves based on the lowest skill denominator would castrate any chance of viability thief has for real competitive play.

So instead of complain about thieves maybe you should practice on a thief to learn when they are vulnerable and then also put the practice into landing your skills during those times.

Your argument holds no weight in the slightest.
I can delete thieves 1v1 with my condi builds. It is rude to call somebody bad because you disagree with them. In the part of the game I play, thieves are often heralded as the best class, and they are very common.
However, it does not matter if I can time all of my skills to land during the evade frames if somebody else screws up and my entire burst is negated.

Thieves are not the best class in ANY part of this game PvP, PvE, or WvW. The ONLY thing thieves are really good at is Fashion Wars 2 and that’s generally only as a human female thief.

I’m not saying you are bad nor is it rude to suggest that your problem with thieves is yourself and not the game since thieves being bad is the truth of the game. Now thieves currently have an advantage over necros 1v1 if the necro doesn’t have a lot of shroud, but you said you don’t have that problem so I can’t understand what’s your problem. You are upset b/c the thief is clearing conditions on evades in team fights, and go on to say they negate your condi burst b/c other ppl are being evaded.

Uhh you do know that they can only remove 1 condi per evade on a 1 sec CD. So if you condi burst them and have cover condis they are dead. By the time they can actually get to the damaging condis 3-4 seconds have passed and they are done for…..

I’m not even talking from my Necromancer’s perspective. My ranger has cover condis, but the bleeds always cleanse first anyways. I am not “upset” about this, I am pointing out that this is too effective in small scale fights. A dire d/d thief can just spam evades and do a ton of damage while being immune to condis.

Necromancer Rights Advocate
Restart WvW: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Clean-The-Slate/first#post6208959
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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

Dire d/d thief spamming conditons and evades can be an easy kill. I kill them with relative ease on my own p/d thief build and rarely see these builds any more. They are not immune to conditions. they die quickly to them.

They have very poor engage and disengage and can be kited and immobbed rather easily.

All I do is drop a venom trap where they will land, kite back and when they Imobbed spike them with my own conditions…shadowstrike away and they die. I have far more immobs in my build than they have ways to break the same and outside their steal they poor at closing range. Once I load conditions on I just stop attacking and move out of range of their DBS which only work at melee range.

Now I used this build against rangers (the DB evade build) and there one common mistake many rangers make. They allow the thief to close range and get off those DB spams. If I saw a ranger use barrage against me I would simply DB towards him, he would be locked in that channel and this allowed me to get to melee and DB over him,

Using barrage is a bad idea. Any skill that does prevents you from kiting and allows them in close is not advised unless you a warrior with restance or a necro and use Putrid mark.

(edited by babazhook.6805)

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

Ok Cecilia here are a few problems

1. Rangers have no business losing to thieves since druid pretty much hard counters them

2. You are talking about WvW. That thief build can be easily kited especially by a druid. You can literally sit at 1k range and pew pew them to death

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Posted by: Ario.8964

Ario.8964

I requested nerfs to game breaking mechanics on my own class. You request nerfs on under powered game mechanics on yours. I was clamoring for nerfs to chrono bunker which almost killed the game while you championed nerfs to D/P when thief was the worst class in the game.

You also fail to realize that this is a business to make money. So an xpac that has a new class and introduce new traitlines is going to be OP. You should have known it from the announcement because they have to make money.

In fact I’ll give you a 100% guaranteed correct advice. If they release a new xpac the skills/class will be OP as kitten

I don’t agree with it but it’s still a business

Regarding the nerfs advocated to d/p:
Just because a class is the worst doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have things overperforming taken down. It makes room for them to buff the class as a whole without the worry of “oh d/p is meta material so we can’t buff the rest of thief because then that build will get op”. It’s the same principle as nerfing bunker chrono just applied to a different extreme.

Yes, this is a business and sadly that means there will be decisions made for business not fun. However, their version of this practice is not sustainable and they will have to make some changes soon or the game will die. Balancing to the core game can actually draw some people in for buying the expac so they can expand their playstyle. Then it’s not a purchase of frustration so they are more likely to play it more and recommend it to friends thereby expanding the market that way and earning more revenue over time. Two different practices, 1 is easy and not sustainable and the other is hard af but very healthy for a game.

Nothing that thief has is over performing in regards to the rest of the game. The fact these people are proposing nerfs to D/P b/c they have trouble fighting it thief v thief using d/d is hilarious at best. They want to nerf D/P b/c its better 1v1 vs D/D. In the grand scheme of things D/P thief is the worst class in the entire game bar none. Then you got other people who want to nerf daredevil b/c they don’t like fighting it with a core thief. WTF

This forum and all the thief mains who post here need to understand that thief v thief balance is not nearly as important as thief v game balance. Yes some weapons/traits are better for 1v1, PvE, or WvW, but in general you can’t balance the thief class for thief v thief b/c thief v game is literally Game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thief. Look at the entire picture before opening your mouths.

I play mesmer and I HATE/LOATHE/DESPISE condi chrono, but I play it due to it being the best build we got. Would I rather see power shatter meta over what we are using now? kitten yeah! But I also know its not Mesmer v Mesmer balance but Mesmer v Game. So when it was Mesmer >> Game I lobbied for nerfs to my own class as I should have. I didn’t make friends BUT mesmer got much needed adjustments that was for the good of the game. Would I have lobbied for those same nerfs if it was Game >> Mesmer. No I wouldn’t have.

I never said I refuse to play d/p because it’s good. I use it all the time in matches and I play with it for 1v1’s as well because it is objectively the best. The reason people ask for it to be nerfed in a thief vs thief perspective is because it out performs every other thief set. There is no room for diversity in the thief world when it comes to match builds or optimal 1v1 builds because if you don’t run d/p you are out blinded, outstealthed, and out damaged all at the same time. Were d/p to be nerfed then thief could receive massive buffs to the entire class to bring the whole thing to competitive level rather than just 1 build. People want thief to be competitive, not just d/p.

Is it likely to happen? No, it isn’t but that’s the thought process of people who advocate d/p nerfs. Just because it is different than what you believe doesn’t make them wrong or mean that they can’t possibly main thief or be good at the game.

[Teef] Dragonbrand Thief and Engi main www.twitch.tv/ariodoesgaming and Ario Does Gaming on Youtube!

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

what do you think thief needs to be balanced

  1. Cooldowns – like every other class has.
  2. Removal of Stealth – a broken mechanic in every game that has it.
  3. Two dodges, like everybody else has.

These may seem like nerfs, so obviously some compensation should take place. I leave this to the designers to design.

The problem with leaving the designers to design for compensation is that, they never do it properly. Example, the cooldown that was recently added to the stealth attack should have been compensated by the removal of Revealed — yet they never did.

At this point, they might as well get rid of Initiatives since they have no kitteng idea how to balance it and do it with cooldowns with everyone else. However, what you don’t realize is that, if Thief has cooldowns instead of Initiatives, you’ll see some devastating combos in gameplay that you have not seen before and I can assure you that you would want to put the Thief back at Initiative based. You might be incline to think that Thief has no cooldown, but that is just an illusion. The Initiative system is the most annoying among all cooldowns because it has the ability to totally lock out any expensive skill or satisfying combos. Be careful on what you wish for.

Just like Initiatives, they have no kitteng idea how to balance stealth either, and yes, they might as well get rid of it. Then again, what’s a Thief profession without Stealth if not another Warrior, only weaker? The problem with Stealth is that they went for 100% invisible when in fact, there was an iteration during the early stages of development that they want Stealth be transparency rather than invisibility — similar to the Predator’s stealth mode. That would have been a better way of doing it instead of adding Revealed debuff as hard counter because 100% invisible is just too much.

As for the 3rd dodge, the Thief never needed it. It was fine with the original Feline Grace.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

I requested nerfs to game breaking mechanics on my own class. You request nerfs on under powered game mechanics on yours. I was clamoring for nerfs to chrono bunker which almost killed the game while you championed nerfs to D/P when thief was the worst class in the game.

You also fail to realize that this is a business to make money. So an xpac that has a new class and introduce new traitlines is going to be OP. You should have known it from the announcement because they have to make money.

In fact I’ll give you a 100% guaranteed correct advice. If they release a new xpac the skills/class will be OP as kitten

I don’t agree with it but it’s still a business

Regarding the nerfs advocated to d/p:
Just because a class is the worst doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have things overperforming taken down. It makes room for them to buff the class as a whole without the worry of “oh d/p is meta material so we can’t buff the rest of thief because then that build will get op”. It’s the same principle as nerfing bunker chrono just applied to a different extreme.

Yes, this is a business and sadly that means there will be decisions made for business not fun. However, their version of this practice is not sustainable and they will have to make some changes soon or the game will die. Balancing to the core game can actually draw some people in for buying the expac so they can expand their playstyle. Then it’s not a purchase of frustration so they are more likely to play it more and recommend it to friends thereby expanding the market that way and earning more revenue over time. Two different practices, 1 is easy and not sustainable and the other is hard af but very healthy for a game.

Nothing that thief has is over performing in regards to the rest of the game. The fact these people are proposing nerfs to D/P b/c they have trouble fighting it thief v thief using d/d is hilarious at best. They want to nerf D/P b/c its better 1v1 vs D/D. In the grand scheme of things D/P thief is the worst class in the entire game bar none. Then you got other people who want to nerf daredevil b/c they don’t like fighting it with a core thief. WTF

This forum and all the thief mains who post here need to understand that thief v thief balance is not nearly as important as thief v game balance. Yes some weapons/traits are better for 1v1, PvE, or WvW, but in general you can’t balance the thief class for thief v thief b/c thief v game is literally Game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thief. Look at the entire picture before opening your mouths.

I play mesmer and I HATE/LOATHE/DESPISE condi chrono, but I play it due to it being the best build we got. Would I rather see power shatter meta over what we are using now? kitten yeah! But I also know its not Mesmer v Mesmer balance but Mesmer v Game. So when it was Mesmer >> Game I lobbied for nerfs to my own class as I should have. I didn’t make friends BUT mesmer got much needed adjustments that was for the good of the game. Would I have lobbied for those same nerfs if it was Game >> Mesmer. No I wouldn’t have.

The reason people ask for it to be nerfed in a thief vs thief perspective is because it out performs every other thief set. There is no room for diversity in the thief world Were d/p to be nerfed then thief could receive massive buffs to the entire class to bring the whole thing to competitive level rather than just 1 build.

Is it likely to happen? No

Literally you just shut this whole thread down while summing up the lunacy of it in it’s entirety. The problem is these people who are clamoring for D/P nerfs are the same people who have done it through the years. The OH pistol 5 skill nerf is a direct result of them as are the direct nerfs to the SA line. You realize they also had a hand in the S/D nerfs too right? The problem with thieves is a direct result of people like this, because over time they thought Anet would buff their beloved d/d. As you can see all that has happened is them getting a class made irrelevant.

Now no class has build diversity at the competitive level. Why should thief be any different? Instead of trying to get build diversity by nerfing something that isn’t even OP, why not just try to become relevant in the game instead, because at this point in time thief isn’t even relevant. After obtaining relevance then go for build diversity, but no class has it so it’s a game wide problem. My personal theory is the balance team isn’t particularly good at their jobs so they’ve pretty much have gone with the “Let’s focus on 1 build per class to make the job easier” approach.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

Black Powder was overpowered the way it was. It was bad if you stood in the absolute center. If you moved just as hair, it was absurdly strong. Very few still playing have fought my P/P healing power build from back then. In melee, it was almost impossible to kill outside of a 4v1 in sPvP and it didn’t run stealth.

SA had to get nerfed massively with the separation of stats from gear, anyways. It offered more damage than DA and CS with the best sustain on the thief.

S/D got “nerfed” not because of people asking for build diversity. Engaging stealing 3 non-stacking boons and then all stacks of two more boons at the same time was deemed too strong by boon-tank players in what was a boon-heavy meta. Do I need to remind you that S/D 3 has been reworked four times and changed three more since launch, even when D/D was objectively overpowered? It’s been a problem skill for people since launch, and there are still many successful S/D players out there, myself included. The nerfs to Acro killed S/D’s sustain viability in sPvP because it carried S/D and the thief’s non-stealth game, and Daredevil, despite offering what once was and so much more, does not compete against what currently exists in the scope of monster bunker-builds that came with HoT on other professions, lacks the point-sustain presence in organized PvP relative to these other professions given the increase in CC and boon accessibility to which S/D cannot keep up.

The thief was only ever relevant in sPvP when it was overpowered because of the way sPvP is designed. The class is fine in WvW if not excellent in what it specializes in, and has been forever. That’s telling enough as it is that the problems don’t lay entirely on the profession-design level but instead mathematical problems associated with sPvP.

My personal theory is that we lack build diversity because the ANet balance team recognizes they’ll get mass QQ and quitting as soon as the only dominant sets are made relatively equal to others, since the majority of players who still play the game and their professions prefer those sets or don’t mind playing them, while the others silently left (See: Sizer).

Defending D/P’s existence forcing neglect of other sets on the pretext that it’d make the thief less usable than currently is logically the same argument as requesting nerfs to the dominant set, except it’s even more unfounded since it lacks any coherent strategy to improve the others while not boosting the profession into an undesirable power-level, while doing the former is heavily-steeped in analysis and suggestions to do so.

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

Black Powder was overpowered the way it was. It was bad if you stood in the absolute center. If you moved just as hair, it was absurdly strong. Very few still playing have fought my P/P healing power build from back then. In melee, it was almost impossible to kill outside of a 4v1 in sPvP and it didn’t run stealth.

SA had to get nerfed massively with the separation of stats from gear, anyways. It offered more damage than DA and CS with the best sustain on the thief.

S/D got “nerfed” not because of people asking for build diversity. Engaging stealing 3 non-stacking boons and then all stacks of two more boons at the same time was deemed too strong by boon-tank players in what was a boon-heavy meta. Do I need to remind you that S/D 3 has been reworked four times and changed three more since launch, even when D/D was objectively overpowered? It’s been a problem skill for people since launch, and there are still many successful S/D players out there, myself included. The nerfs to Acro killed S/D’s sustain viability in sPvP because it carried S/D and the thief’s non-stealth game, and Daredevil, despite offering what once was and so much more, does not compete against what currently exists in the scope of monster bunker-builds that came with HoT on other professions, lacks the point-sustain presence in organized PvP relative to these other professions given the increase in CC and boon accessibility to which S/D cannot keep up.

The thief was only ever relevant in sPvP when it was overpowered because of the way sPvP is designed. The class is fine in WvW if not excellent in what it specializes in, and has been forever. That’s telling enough as it is that the problems don’t lay entirely on the profession-design level but instead mathematical problems associated with sPvP.

My personal theory is that we lack build diversity because the ANet balance team recognizes they’ll get mass QQ and quitting as soon as the only dominant sets are made relatively equal to others, since the majority of players who still play the game and their professions prefer those sets or don’t mind playing them, while the others silently left (See: Sizer).

Defending D/P’s existence forcing neglect of other sets on the pretext that it’d make the thief less usable than currently is logically the same argument as requesting nerfs to the dominant set, except it’s even more unfounded since it lacks any coherent strategy to improve the others while not boosting the profession into an undesirable power-level, while doing the former is heavily-steeped in analysis and suggestions to do so.

I rest my case. This is your problem thief players and the reason you can’t have nice things.

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Posted by: saerni.2584

saerni.2584

Balance in this game is hard because a buff to one thing will buff all weapon sets that use that thing. D/P is not the only viable weapon set in the game but it is a strong weapon set for a lot of reasons. So when we talk about buffing Sword, a lot of discussion goes into the Sword autoattack/stealth attack and sword 3 because that can be separated from D/P.

Balance is also hard because some sets underperform relative to the classes we are fighting against. Back when eles had diamondskin that granted immunity, eles that invested into healing were effectively immune to condition builds.

A lot of thief “power” is carried by relatively few abilities. Some of our abilities need to be toned down in exchange for buffs to improve thief diversity. A lot of naysaying “they will only nerf and never buff” ignores the large buffs to autoattack damage that were handed out recently. We can and should demand change that adjusts our abilities. Only demanding buffs is what will not be listened to. Asking for a combination of nerfs and buffs to the same weapon sets will have a better shot of being realistically considered.

Thieves need:

1) Buff to stealth attacks generally, more for some sets than others. Nerfs where appropriate to balance out increases to stealth attack damage. This would be less of a nerf and more of a shift in damage to more skilled play.

2) Adjustments to Sword abilities to make them flow better (lower animation aftercast). This is to help buff the sword without making it a generic “just as good as dagger.” It doesn’t have to be as good or better than D/P, just closer.

3) Reductions in perma evade staff and D/D builds. Daredevil heal combined with a few other traits gives too much endurance. Combined with the natural evade built into the weapon skills there is now effectively too much evade on the class for a healthy game. On evade condi clear becomes a problem when a player can evade almost continuously. These builds should be able to dodge a lot, don’t get me wrong, just not quite as much as they are able to do now.

4) Increases to shortbow poison field duration. This is to help players make combos with the field more than anything else. It rewards smart play and doesn’t increase damage significantly for a weapon set that is mostly utility in any case.

Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
Thief (Daredevil)
Commandant of Pistol-Dagger and Apex Predator

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Posted by: Ario.8964

Ario.8964

Deceiver does have a very strong point with the mathematics argument when it comes to pvp balance for the thief. What could possibly help gamewide with not only build diversity but making classes relevant everywhere would be the removal of the amulet system in favor of allowing each gear piece to have ascended level selected stats so not only would thief have the stats available to be competitive, other people could customize builds more and allow for diversity and viability at the same time. Then if you really want to take it to the next step you can get rid of the trash specializations system and make traits function the way they did before you could only take 3 lines. Give people all the points to max 3 lines so they can if they choose to do so but then allow for people to customize their selection in order to take what they want for a specific setup therefore allowing for more customization, build invention, and diversity. Once people are free to experiment with a number of build types there won’t be this be all to end all meta build that is objectively the best because there will be enough builds that every build run is a risk and can be shut down by some build out there that you may not even know about.

Wishful thinking yes but still hoping for something like this to come if I can garner enough support for it.

[Teef] Dragonbrand Thief and Engi main www.twitch.tv/ariodoesgaming and Ario Does Gaming on Youtube!

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

They opt for the amulet system to make it easier for them to balance PvP and I don’t think that will change anytime soon. The major problem is not really the amulet but ArenaNet’s stubbornness in not separating the skills for each game type. If they accepted the fact that skills needs to be separated for PvP, they can adjust the Thief’s skills in PvP where it scales better with amulet. But I guess that’s “too much work” according to them.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: Svarty.8019

Svarty.8019

what do you think thief needs to be balanced

  1. Cooldowns – like every other class has.
  2. Removal of Stealth – a broken mechanic in every game that has it.
  3. Two dodges, like everybody else has.

These may seem like nerfs, so obviously some compensation should take place. I leave this to the designers to design.

If you would ask 100 Gw2 players a question: "What 3 traits define Thief or Daredevil profession in your opinion? " 103 of them would say: 1. No cooldown. 2. Stealth. 3. Having more dodges

And you would like to take all of those above away from Thief? No offense man, but you just made Thief in to old, dusty, unoriginal, not at all interesting trash can….godkitten …. trash can. That was complete nonsense, sorry.

With all due respect, I disagree. The reason being that the above abilities make the Thief overly powerful when compared with the mortal classes.

Nobody at Anet loves WvW like Grouch loved PvP. That’s what we need, a WvW Grouch, but taller.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

They opt for the amulet system to make it easier for them to balance PvP and I don’t think that will change anytime soon. The major problem is not really the amulet but ArenaNet’s stubbornness in not separating the skills for each game type. If they accepted the fact that skills needs to be separated for PvP, they can adjust the Thief’s skills in PvP where it scales better with amulet. But I guess that’s “too much work” according to them.

The reason I am adverse to separating skill balance is because ANet clearly struggles with managing even on the conceptual level the pool of skills that already exists, and especially given the thief, the problems are more ingrained specifically with the math behind amulets and modifiers that compensating anywhere outside of amulets would result in even flukier balance; increase them to more similarly match WvW performance and you end up with all-in builds and tank builds playing overly-effectively since these would be stackable into insanity, while failing to increase them enough would still perpetuate the lack of diversity in viable build paths.

While ultimately the lack of weapon diversity does largely extend to the disparity or blatant weakness of some skills, the lack of trait/style diversity across all professions in sPvP can almost entirely be placed on the existing amulet system.

Not to mention we wouldn’t even need stat power creep like Marauder’s gear since a mix-and-match approach to stats and higher stat pools in general would enable more balanced split-stat builds and build weakness/style compensation in other areas while not just objectively losing performance everywhere.

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Posted by: Keyboardwarrior.8021

Keyboardwarrior.8021

1. Thief is light armed, squish, to balance that, the damage burst should be faster and bigger, it’s the opposite in this game. Heavy armed class hits harder, range hits faster in distance. Thief is light armed, should move faster than heavy armed class.
2. Thief is main melee, they should have enough gap closing and escaping skills to catch up and disengage.
3. Remove the casting time of their skills, in what world you see a light weapon melee class needs few second to stab or cut. that’s just stupid. Do people really needs a few second before waving a dagger?
4. Increase thief’s environment awareness skills to avoid heavy damage burst.

The real world already made all the balance rules, it’s just your game designer doesn’t have the talent to catch up.

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Posted by: Alatar.7364

Alatar.7364

what do you think thief needs to be balanced

  1. Cooldowns – like every other class has.
  2. Removal of Stealth – a broken mechanic in every game that has it.
  3. Two dodges, like everybody else has.

These may seem like nerfs, so obviously some compensation should take place. I leave this to the designers to design.

If you would ask 100 Gw2 players a question: "What 3 traits define Thief or Daredevil profession in your opinion? " 103 of them would say: 1. No cooldown. 2. Stealth. 3. Having more dodges

And you would like to take all of those above away from Thief? No offense man, but you just made Thief in to old, dusty, unoriginal, not at all interesting trash can….godkitten …. trash can. That was complete nonsense, sorry.

With all due respect, I disagree. The reason being that the above abilities make the Thief overly powerful when compared with the mortal classes.

Well, let’s break it down a little bit. But before we start, I am generaly not known by anyone, except people who know me already, those people also know that I’ve been in to Thief with my whole heart for quite a long time and I know where are my limits with nearly any possible combination of buids and traits. From my experience so far I believe that:
1) If Thief was to have cooldown, it would make it nearly unplayable, unless Initiative system would get complete rework, not just compensated. Initiative system is actually not really good even now.
2) Removal of Stealth – If you’d remove Stealth from Thief I assure you that 100% of Thiefs stilll playing without Daredevil spec. would either quit the game or start using Daredevil spec. which would still not compensate the huge loss of what Stealth means not only for Thiefs but for Team play aswell. The entier profession would basicaly mean nothing after that, would you really want that for those few of us out there still playing this profession? However, as Sir Vincent mentioned, Stealth should definitely be reworked so it is not complete invisibility. I 50% agree on that.

3) Two dodges – that is propably the only possible “nerf” that could work, but same as before, many Thiefs would be forced to use Acrobatics if they would want to keep more dodge possibilities, but that would force them to delete one of other trait lines. Which means that there would be even less diversity then it is now, which is honestly really really sad. Majority of Thiefs would either use the same trait line (Acro) and simillar combination of others, or the said majority would instead switch to Meta builds, which I find to be…devastating for…let’s say “culture” of Thief.

PS: Please forgive me my grammar =D

EDIT: Just as a matter of opinion: Thief is so NOT overly powerful, even in 1vs1 it is only sometimes standing above the opponent, but take a closer look at Thief and tell me: what other purpose does it have if not being a 1vs1 specialized profession?

~I Aear cân ven na mar

(edited by Alatar.7364)

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Posted by: kash.9213

kash.9213

2) Removal of Stealth – If you’d remove Stealth from Thief I assure you that 100% of Thiefs stilll playing without Daredevil spec. would either quit the game or start using Daredevil spec. which would still not compensate the huge loss of what Stealth means not only for Thiefs but for Team play aswell. The entier profession would basicaly mean nothing after that, would you really want that for those few of us out there still playing this profession? However, as Sir Vincent mentioned, Stealth should definitely be reworked so it is not complete invisibility. I 50% agree on that.

What am I missing about initiative? It doesn’t seem bad to me even though the budget across weapons sets isn’t great.

What would be in place of complete invisibility and how would it carry on the stealth mechanics purpose and what would you replace position oriented skills and especially Backstab with?

Kash
NSP

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Posted by: Alatar.7364

Alatar.7364

2) Removal of Stealth – If you’d remove Stealth from Thief I assure you that 100% of Thiefs stilll playing without Daredevil spec. would either quit the game or start using Daredevil spec. which would still not compensate the huge loss of what Stealth means not only for Thiefs but for Team play aswell. The entier profession would basicaly mean nothing after that, would you really want that for those few of us out there still playing this profession? However, as Sir Vincent mentioned, Stealth should definitely be reworked so it is not complete invisibility. I 50% agree on that.

What am I missing about initiative? It doesn’t seem bad to me even though the budget across weapons sets isn’t great.

What would be in place of complete invisibility and how would it carry on the stealth mechanics purpose and what would you replace position oriented skills and especially Backstab with?

Not sure if you read correctly, but I just agreed that it should be changed to something that is not complete invisibility, no replacing of stealth skill would be needed. I don’t really know how to describe it, but maybe you know the game with aliens, where you have special suit that can make you invisible? Your skin/armor will change shape to hexagons that bend light around you. Very very very hard to spot, but it is still possible to be spoted. More like predator stealth.

EDIT: Forgot to reply about initiative: You should read the post of Sir Vincent as I am going to completely repeat it as I agree with it: Initiative system can (and WILL) completely lock out all of your weapon skills in no time. Thief is a very weapon reliant profession, most of its utility skill provide just a way to escape, not really a way to fight back like nearly every other profession has. Which means that even single mistake or blunder can blow you to hell if you dont run away. While most other professions can keep combining weapon skills and utility skills for a long long if not infinite time. Thief can only try to use skills like Roll for Initiative, but as I said, that is not really a way to keep fighting, as it has 60 secs cooldown and you will be able to use only 2 weapon skills, or one if you special or 5th skills.

~I Aear cân ven na mar

(edited by Alatar.7364)

what do you think thief needs to be balanced

in Thief

Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

They opt for the amulet system to make it easier for them to balance PvP and I don’t think that will change anytime soon. The major problem is not really the amulet but ArenaNet’s stubbornness in not separating the skills for each game type. If they accepted the fact that skills needs to be separated for PvP, they can adjust the Thief’s skills in PvP where it scales better with amulet. But I guess that’s “too much work” according to them.

The reason I am adverse to separating skill balance is because ANet clearly struggles with managing even on the conceptual level the pool of skills that already exists, and especially given the thief, the problems are more ingrained specifically with the math behind amulets and modifiers that compensating anywhere outside of amulets would result in even flukier balance; increase them to more similarly match WvW performance and you end up with all-in builds and tank builds playing overly-effectively since these would be stackable into insanity, while failing to increase them enough would still perpetuate the lack of diversity in viable build paths.

While ultimately the lack of weapon diversity does largely extend to the disparity or blatant weakness of some skills, the lack of trait/style diversity across all professions in sPvP can almost entirely be placed on the existing amulet system.

Not to mention we wouldn’t even need stat power creep like Marauder’s gear since a mix-and-match approach to stats and higher stat pools in general would enable more balanced split-stat builds and build weakness/style compensation in other areas while not just objectively losing performance everywhere.

Mix and matching gears will exponentially make balancing more difficult since they have to account for every possible gear combination. They opted for amulet to avoid that obvious headache induced situation.

Contrary to their protest against the separation of PvP and PvE skills, it will make their balancing life much easier because they can balance PvP however they want without affecting the balance in PvE. Currently, a simple buff (or nerf) in PvP has a devastating effect in PvE and WvW — and vice versa. They need accept the fact that they already separated them by opting on amulets and generic gear in PvP, so why stop there?

Right now, they can’t make drastic changes to skills for PvP’s sake because it will setback the balance in the Raid contents that they are currently developing. If they have separated the skills, they will be removing this stupid shackles they’ve applied unto themselves. They can balance the PvP skills without derailing the balance in Raids or any other PvE contents.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.