Guild Wars 2

I have never seen a d/d thief in like forever so I’m wondering why d/p thief is SO much better that absolutely no one plays d/d thief in spvp. I even see some s/d thieves as well

King Noob IV.3560:

I have never seen a d/d thief in like forever so I’m wondering why d/p thief is SO much better that absolutely no one plays d/d thief in spvp. I even see some s/d thieves as well

I play D/D usually in unranked. That said, D/P offers better defense, control, and gap closers in addition to it not needing to land CnD for stealth. 5/5 skills in the set are useful as opposed to the 3(4)/5 in D/D. The only thing you really lose for gaining this advantage is a 1.0 multiplier (half an auto attack chain).

everything D/D does D/P does better + more

D/D really survives due to sheer overpowering of enemies (6/6/2/0/0, maybe 4/6/4/0/0) any other build, like those who go deep into shadow arts rely on stealth too much and therefor are hardly a threat since they spend so much time out of combat).
D/D really just brings that one thing to the team table: Burst Damage.

D/P on the other hand brings more to the team by allowing group stealth should it be needed without “wasting” long cooldowns for it. Interrupting (stomps, skills like channels or heals), the ability to close longer gaps which also brings easier blinds which is always a good bit of defense for your entire group etc.

Not to mention… D/P is simply a lot easier to play because it has easy out of combat stealth (better survivability) and is not as dependant on positioning.
And Deathblossom is honestly terrible effect/initiative wise.

So in pvP, people will usually bring D/P because your playing in a team.

D/D is hella fun to play though! I try to play at least one unranked match a day with D/D.
Actually, if I fight a team with a lot of squishy targets I will sometimes opt for D/D in unranked. Mostly S/D, sometimes D/P and a lot of love for D/D ^^

@Sizzle Hint
D/D has stronger burst than D/P, but yeah… That’s the only thing it’s better at! xD

The burst from D/D doesn’t really work in sPvP anyways with everyone being so tanky. You deal a whole ton of damage, but usually they’re still standing, and they just melt you while you’re revealed/engaged. With D/P, there’s a lot of skirmishing potential; interrupts, blinds, non-target stealth to disengage, etc.

I play D/D vampiric venom build with celestial in ranked and unranked.

Strong and fun.

And with the upcomming update to the spec skills… its going to get a lot stronger.

Cronicle.5691:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHa7Y8d8Z4c

I play D/D vampiric venom build with celestial in ranked and unranked.

Strong and fun.

And with the upcomming update to the spec skills… its going to get a lot stronger.

Fighting PvE players does not prove anything about a build’s viability. Everything is super strong against bad players.

Hmmm ok so now I get that D/D, with meta builds, is useless compared to D/P in sPvP because of D/P’s ease of stealth and utility with teams. Now I don’t get why so many people play D/D in WvW. I understand that it’s more fun, but if that were the case then people would play it in sPvP too, so there must be something it does in WvW better than D/P but I don’t know what. Considering D/P has a gap closer on 3 and since WvW is very spacey for people to run away/kite I’d assume D/P is better in WvW.

witcher.3197:

Cronicle.5691:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHa7Y8d8Z4c

I play D/D vampiric venom build with celestial in ranked and unranked.

Strong and fun.

And with the upcomming update to the spec skills… its going to get a lot stronger.

Fighting PvE players does not prove anything about a build’s viability. Everything is super strong against bad players.

This is unranked and ranked matches. Bash all you want with how “you” think its bad but dont say something is unviable without having played it. I’ve won and lost 1v1 duels but to say they are pve players or bad players is just blind accusation. The op asks why nobody uses d/d… well because everybody goes with other “good” and successful players use. And here is what i think about its viabitlity, it does what its suppose to do extremely well. You bruise well and keep yourself at high health with the constant healing.

looks like the type of build i want to play.. thanks for the video

King Noob IV.3560:

Hmmm ok so now I get that D/D, with meta builds, is useless compared to D/P in sPvP because of D/P’s ease of stealth and utility with teams. Now I don’t get why so many people play D/D in WvW. I understand that it’s more fun, but if that were the case then people would play it in sPvP too, so there must be something it does in WvW better than D/P but I don’t know what. Considering D/P has a gap closer on 3 and since WvW is very spacey for people to run away/kite I’d assume D/P is better in WvW.

The nature of stats in WvW (food, ascended armor, guard stacks etc. )means that ridiculous burst is much more viable cause you really can 1 shot the unaware, and people love doing this. WvW is also full of random things to use CnD on outside of fights such as random mobs, critters and most importantly ENEMY WALLS which allows “out of combat” stealth like P/D has(even tho you are technically in combat).

This does not, IMO make D/D better than D/P (like you pointed out the gap closer is amazing in open fields when people are running) but the gap is much shorter, and often D/D players are just relying on really high BS crits to kill their enemies before they can react. D/P still gives you more options, and is really great in groups to give out stealth via BP (just like in spvp), and can honestly do really big BS crits as well, all its really missing is the constant vuln stacks.

D/D is only really seen in Solo Roaming.
As soon as the Thieves roam in a team (havoc, roam or focus) they will still opt for D/P for the exact reasons I mentioned earlier.
Another significant difference is the fact that stats can get way higher than in PvP (Dr Gonzo mentioned this) but also because the CnD skill does a lot more damage in PvE and WvW areas than it does in PvP (you’ll have to check the exact number on the wiki).
It’s quite possible to burst down a tanky guardian depending on what you got running.

So, because stealth is fairly irrelevant for WvW, the fact that you don’t really recieve a reward for helping you kan toch welallies, with that insanely strong burst makes it a very viable option to take and use.

D/D is relatively better in WvW because you’re generally not trying to kill a bunker in a small scale fight – you’re trying to 100-0 stuff like full zerk staff eles. The additional damage of the D/D combo, combined with it being much easier to land a C&D (owing to a large number of players that aren’t paying attention to you) make it…not completely unreasonable to run.

In sPvP you lack gap closers compared to every other melee set, and your only defensive tool is a high initiative, telegraphed attack that becomes increasingly difficult to land against better opponents. While it’s fun to style on people with D/D in WvW, in sPvP you’ll quickly hit a wall where your opponents are too competent for C&D to be reliable, leaving you with no access to disengage or defensive tools.

You can of course run it in sPvP anyway, and matchmaking will eventually drop you down to a level that D/D can perform at – you’ll never see it in high skill games, however, as it simply lacks any redeeming qualities at high level.

CnD has a damage multiplicator of 1.5 in pve and 1.0 in pvp. HS has 1.0 (if the enemy is over 50% hp) in both so bp + hs deals the same amount of damage. If the enemy is under 50% bp + hs deals more damage than cnd.

The next problem is the 4 second revealed in pvp. D/D relys far more on stealth than d/p does. You can fight 1vs1’s without stealthing after your initial burst if the other class is not condi heavy.

You can also move unseen over the map, without using your refuge.

And the mentioned group utility.

King Noob IV.3560:

Hmmm ok so now I get that D/D, with meta builds, is useless compared to D/P in sPvP because of D/P’s ease of stealth and utility with teams. Now I don’t get why so many people play D/D in WvW. I understand that it’s more fun, but if that were the case then people would play it in sPvP too, so there must be something it does in WvW better than D/P but I don’t know what. Considering D/P has a gap closer on 3 and since WvW is very spacey for people to run away/kite I’d assume D/P is better in WvW.

Mostly because D/D builds are able to reach around 4 thousand power in WvW, and people in WvW have inherently lower defenses, all while CnD and other abilities do more damage due to sPvP-only nerfs. A thief when expending all of his resources can actually be played to burst people down in WvW unlike being forced into blindspam skirmishing in sPvP.

D/P still works fine (a lot of roamers use it for the permanent stealth uptime and skirmishing potential against tankier foes), but it’s a lot less fun if you’re not a big fan of stealth. D/D plays with stealth, but it’s more about the backstabs/coming out of stealth than anything else.

apocom.3172:

CnD has a damage multiplicator of 1.5 in pve and 1.0 in pvp.

That’s actually the greatest factor that significantly reduced the use of d/d in spvp. This is not the case for wvw though, CnD damage still takes full effect there. Nothing to do with d/d stealth thieves being in stealth too much to fight, it’s not a requirement to take heal while stealthed, heal on crit I’ve found works well provided you have targets to hit, tough I tend to stack it. Blinding powder on stealth is also useful for the stealth monkey, along with remove condition, makes me tend to constantly go into quick stealth for the benefits, really only longer in stealth to withdraw. Stacks of might helps. But however you play d/d, CnD damage reduction is probably your greatest disadvantage, a turnoff for many.

It’s very simple. The difference between them are skills 3-4-5.

3 on d/p is a gap closer, the projectile is unblockable and it blinds too! On d/d its some silly very short evade that roots you in place and adds some bleeds that stack up fast if you run condi but anybody with half a brain will kite you or cc you outside of the evade.
You can also use shadow shot for some fancy backstab tricks.

4 on d/p is a very fast cast interrupt, it can reliably stop heals/stomps and whatnot. On d/d it’s a dagger throw that used to hit harder but not anymore.

5 is a blind and also a smoke field which can be used creatively by yourself and your allies too. On d/d it’s personal stealth which is nice but again, once people realize this they can kite you forever and you won’t gap close. It works on s/d because of the teleport and evades the sword has.

tl;dr d/p has a lot more utility and it’s pretty much impossible to kite

robertul.3679:

On d/d its some silly very short evade that roots you in place and adds some bleeds that stack up fast if you run condi but anybody with half a brain will kite you or cc you outside of the evade.

Death Blossom: Do an evasive attack over your opponent, striking nearby enemies three times. Each hit causes bleeding.

No root. It’s only problematic if you are a key masher rather than using the right skill at the right time. In which case you will be mostly dancing around using cloak and dagger and then heartseeker to finish them (or close a gap). Quality over quantity. Additionally, dancing dagger is another gap closer. It’s just more bang for your buck. WvW there is no issue, it’s just the CnD reduction in spvp, pretty much it.

d/p offers more than just dmg

Cynz.9437:

d/p offers more than just dmg

And that’s exactly it. Since the damage isn’t enough in sPvP to change the fight quickly enough, having a build based on a full-damage approach that isn’t able to kill someone quickly defeats the purpose. The best GvG guilds in the game run very aggressive thief periphery because it’s much better to have a dead enemy than a CC’ed one. With the damage not there, a CC’ed enemy is better than one that can still perform actions and impact a fight.

Cynz.9437:

d/p offers more than just dmg

So does d/d stealth. From blinds to group buffs. Still I’d rather not go d/d stealth in spvp due to the nerf there. They used to be, but since the nerf it has become less so. It’s really not hard to grasp. But for wvw and pve, d/d stealth is pretty active. Rather than comparing one build to another that has been nerfed in a very limited section of the game, I’d rather see better balance between the various thief builds in all aspects of the game. But just one thiefs opinion I guess hehe

Daywolf.2630:

Additionally, dancing dagger is another gap closer. It’s just more bang for your buck.

What? How is dancing dagger a gap closer? LOL!
Also what I meant with death blossom root is that the evade frame is much shorter than the whole animation which prevents you from using other skills or dodge.

robertul.3679:

What? How is dancing dagger a gap closer? LOL!

Well then you must be running in the wrong direction. Considering you as a d/d should have very good burst speed (fastest class/build in the game hands down) and your target is now immobile, what do you think? I vote for not knowing which direction to run. Have you actually ever played other builds on the thief?? Thief is the most awesome interceptor in the game, a tackler, you knock down runners and watch your zerg barrel over them. If you can’t catch any other class/build in the game with a thief when you put your mind/build to it…
thief

robertul.3679:

Daywolf.2630:

Additionally, dancing dagger is another gap closer. It’s just more bang for your buck.

What? How is dancing dagger a gap closer? LOL!
Also what I meant with death blossom root is that the evade frame is much shorter than the whole animation which prevents you from using other skills or dodge.

He’s referring to the cripple slowing down foes in order to catch up to them.

Thing is, Day, this thread is about sPvP. The cripple really doesn’t matter in sPvP so much, and D/P is just strictly better at small-scale due to its better supportive options since the damage from D/D isn’t high enough in the format to warrant its use.

DB’s evade is only really useful if your target has a 1 sec attack interval or you use it to dodge the CC, which is really risky. Otherwise it’s a very mediocre skill.

D/p ends up playing better and is more safe to use due to random blocks,dodges,evade skills,blind, random aegis thrown out. It’s over all a better set of skills in most situations the dual skill is significantly better than death blossom and faster.

D/D works in WvW because you have plenty of safe targets to stealth off of, a shorter reveal, and no time limit in which to conduct your business.

Daywolf.2630:

Cynz.9437:

d/p offers more than just dmg

So does d/d stealth. From blinds to group buffs. Still I’d rather not go d/d stealth in spvp due to the nerf there. They used to be, but since the nerf it has become less so. It’s really not hard to grasp. But for wvw and pve, d/d stealth is pretty active. Rather than comparing one build to another that has been nerfed in a very limited section of the game, I’d rather see better balance between the various thief builds in all aspects of the game. But just one thiefs opinion I guess hehe

dp offers interrupt, blind, gap closer, aoe stealth, stealth w/o target… that w/o traits
dd only offers dmg/slow and very crappy evade
in teamplay d/p is just more usefull (see stomp interrupts, banner interrupt, team stealth etc.)

Daywolf.2630:

your target is now immobile

I don’t think you know what cripple actually does. You confuse it with immobilize. That’s another condition. Here’s a helpful link: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition

Also, average pvper is much better at denying CnD than average wvwer. You can wep stow to save ini but in a fight, it’s so easy to lose cos of 1 denied CnD. With D/P, there are still options, D/D is just very limited.

robertul.3679:

Daywolf.2630:

your target is now immobile

I don’t think you know what cripple actually does. You confuse it with immobilize. That’s another condition. Here’s a helpful link: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition

It’s quite possible to run Panic Strike on D/D, in fact… When I run D/D, I go 6/6/2/0/0 for Panic Strike taking only Cloaked in Shadow in Shadow Arts for the Blind on Stealth as the only defensive mechanism which works quite well for some (usually unranked) compositions.
Last time I checked, D/P didn’t have an inherrent Immobilize either, you might be confused with P/D?

Initial stun from Stealing into your enemy with Basi Venom, followed by a CnD while moving to the back, going for the Backstab, have Panic Strike’s Immobilize Proc.
It’s not that different from D/P really.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Also, average pvper is much better at denying CnD than average wvwer. You can wep stow to save ini but in a fight, it’s so easy to lose cos of 1 denied CnD. With D/P, there are still options, D/D is just very limited.

Play D/D for a while and stowing the weapon becomes a second nature so really, that’s not much of an issue.
Also, you do realise that the majority of “WvW-ers” also play PvP, right?
While it’s true that they don’t play PvP as much as a “PvP-er”, most of the folk there have high ranks and good ratios in terms of win/loss because of them knowing how to fight in group compositions just as well, if not better, than a “PvP-er”.

I said it before that I agree that D/P is the better option, but when people give bad intel, something has to be said :P
The points you two mentioned can both be overcome and are issues based on the player’s “skill”, rather than the weapon set.

IMO, and I haven’t read through the whole thread yet, it’s do (due?) to the stat cap more than anything.
In WvW, the cap is through Ascended gear and Legendary weapons- this makes d/d more appealing because you get MUCH higher numbers. You have the possibility of one shotting people who don’t run toughness or vitality now. It makes roaming, scouting, and dueling much easier when you have much higher numbers because thieves only damage mitigating stat is their trait lines- how much stealth do I need to survive and do I need to dodge like a maniac. With D/D you only need 1 shot, so 5/6/0/0/3 full zerker becomes the thing.
In SPvP, you get exotic- this means your backstab isn’t going to be “doin tuh domegz” (all those one shot videos and what not) so you need more utility. You can’t one shot things that often (full glass staff ele’s the only exception), so you need to survive much longer to make sure your dps doesn’t hit the off switch. D/P has the same backstab, has easier-self-reliant stealth application, has a daze in case someone comes using a big move, and has a pair of HIGHLY reliable gap closers (both with their respective times to use).

Did this help any?

Vornollo.5182:

Also, you do realise that the majority of “WvW-ers” also play PvP, right?
While it’s true that they don’t play PvP as much as a “PvP-er”, most of the folk there have high ranks and good ratios in terms of win/loss because of them knowing how to fight in group compositions just as well, if not better, than a “PvP-er”.

I said it before that I agree that D/P is the better option, but when people give bad intel, something has to be said :P
The points you two mentioned can both be overcome and are issues based on the player’s “skill”, rather than the weapon set.

Perhaps your server and those in your match have wvwers of average skill so good, they are great in pvp too. On my home server and all those I’ve ever transferred to with my alts, I could consider average wvwer skilled when he double dodges on a sight of a thief.

Yes, there some good wvw players, but they are not the average wvw player.

Two main reasons, stealth on demand and gap closing.

DeceiverX.8361:

King Noob IV.3560:

Hmmm ok so now I get that D/D, with meta builds, is useless compared to D/P in sPvP because of D/P’s ease of stealth and utility with teams. Now I don’t get why so many people play D/D in WvW. I understand that it’s more fun, but if that were the case then people would play it in sPvP too, so there must be something it does in WvW better than D/P but I don’t know what. Considering D/P has a gap closer on 3 and since WvW is very spacey for people to run away/kite I’d assume D/P is better in WvW.

Mostly because D/D builds are able to reach around 4 thousand power in WvW, and people in WvW have inherently lower defenses, all while CnD and other abilities do more damage due to sPvP-only nerfs. A thief when expending all of his resources can actually be played to burst people down in WvW unlike being forced into blindspam skirmishing in sPvP.

D/P still works fine (a lot of roamers use it for the permanent stealth uptime and skirmishing potential against tankier foes), but it’s a lot less fun if you’re not a big fan of stealth. D/D plays with stealth, but it’s more about the backstabs/coming out of stealth than anything else.

Did you gank an up leveled Necro or what?

The only problem I have with d/p is I need to use 2 actions for a stealth and double the int, while CnD is one action.

apocom.3172:

CnD has a damage multiplicator of 1.5 in pve and 1.0 in pvp.

Mainly this, CnD damage is ridiculous in WvW.

Stop focusing on the .5 multiplier on C&D. It’s not a big deal. It’s really two things:

1) D/D relies on opposing aggression to be effective. C&D is reasonably easy to land when your opponent is aggressively closing on you in melee and you use it as a response. It is unreliable as hell if your opponent is trying to kite you and maintain distance. When you’re engaging in a thief duel against another melee in open space, you can rely on them trying to close with you at some point, and with practice you can reliably respond with C&D. In sPvP, where your opponent is frequently a D/D ele or engineer that is trying to kite you around a point, C&D is unreliable rubbish – and you don’t have reliable gap closers to boot.

2) D/D is very, very reliant on Shadow Arts to be effective. Without natural access to blinds or evades you need that blind on stealth, you need the regeneration while lurking in stealth, and you generally need to play a lot more defensively than you would otherwise like to. This is not at all a problem for dueling – dueling thieves should be running Shadow Arts, they should be playing defensively, etc – but is a substantial liability in sPvP, where, again, you have to be chasing down tanky targets or winning 2v1s quickly, which Shadow Arts does not help with.

It’s a hard to master, niche build in a 1v1 duel in the middle of nowhere. It doesn’t rotate or +1 nearly as well as a 60206 Panic Strike thief, and doesn’t duel nearly as well as a 20606 Shadow Arts DP. 20606 D/D is an unfavorable, if winnable, match-up against 60206 Panic Strike D/P in a duel, but simply gets dumpstered by 20606 D/P (it simply cannot keep up and struggles with the blinds).

It also, again, drops off quickly as your opponent gets better – you can probably land a C&D on me when I’m sipping kittentails late at night, but good luck hitting a C&D on Toker or anyone else with superb mechanics with any reliability.

Ensign.2189:

1) D/D relies on opposing aggression to be effective. ~snip~

What kind of Thief are you if you’re being kited? I mean serious ly? Anyone who chose to use D/D knows how to use CnD.

Isn’t the meta strategy for Thieves are to +1 fights? Then D/D is far superior to D/P in this regard only because it is a fully offensive skill set.

CnD+BS > BP+HS+BS in terms of damage output.

2) D/D is very, very reliant on Shadow Arts to be effective. ~snip~

You don’t need SA. You can run the same build that S/D player uses and be really effective.

It’s a hard to master, niche build in a 1v1 duel in the middle of nowhere.

That’s not the weapon set’s problem…it is a L2P issue.

It doesn’t rotate or +1 nearly as well as a 60206 Panic Strike thief,

What are you talking about? If any weapon set that has the ability to take a target from 100% to < 50% that would be D/D.

+1 fights is the D/D specialty.

and doesn’t duel nearly as well as a 20606 Shadow Arts DP.

You’re the one who said that D/D relies on SA, yet with full SA they still fall short?

I never miss a CnD, evaded sure, but not miss.

20606 D/D is an unfavorable, if winnable, match-up against 60206 Panic Strike D/P in a duel, but simply gets dumpstered by 20606 D/P (it simply cannot keep up and struggles with the blinds).

D/D is not for dueling. It’s main purpose is to +1 fights and bring down the target as fast as possible.

Yes fighting against a D/P would suck, the same problem S/D has to deal with when fighting against D/P.

It also, again, drops off quickly as your opponent gets better – you can probably land a C&D on me when I’m sipping kittentails late at night, but good luck hitting a C&D on Toker or anyone else with superb mechanics with any reliability.

You’re thinking in terms of 1v1 when the purpose of D/D is to 2v1 fights.

I think it’s funny people keep asking this question. BLIND!

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Isn’t the meta strategy for Thieves are to +1 fights? Then D/D is far superior to D/P in this regard only because it is a fully offensive skill set.

D/D is far inferior to D/P at +1ing fights as it has no ability to enter a fight from stealth without burning cooldowns, which increases their threat dramatically. S/D is superior because of spammable immobilize and faster rotations.

D/D has an advantage against foes that are asleep (and don’t respond in the 1s between the C&D landing and the backstab), terrible (and out of cooldowns), or running bad builds (that run out of responses to a C&D before the thief gets bored). It is utterly irrelevant in competitive play.

2) D/D is very, very reliant on Shadow Arts to be effective. ~snip~

You don’t need SA. You can run the same build that S/D player uses and be really effective.

It’s a hard to master, niche build in a 1v1 duel in the middle of nowhere.

That’s not the weapon set’s problem…it is a L2P issue.

It doesn’t rotate or +1 nearly as well as a 60206 Panic Strike thief,

What are you talking about? If any weapon set that has the ability to take a target from 100% to < 50% that would be D/D.

+1 fights is the D/D specialty.

You’re the one who said that D/D relies on SA, yet with full SA they still fall short?

Correct. Even when specced and played perfectly, they are clearly and markedly inferior to S/D and D/P builds, and largely inferior to S/P.

This is why the population of D/D thieves in competitive PvP matches is exactly zero.

You’re thinking in terms of 1v1 when the purpose of D/D is to 2v1 fights.

It struggles in 2v1 situations for reasons mentioned above. While it has a stronger burst against, say, weak players fighting a berserker staff elementalist for zergs, it is markedly inferior to competent players are hard to kill targets like D/D eles and cele rifle engineers. It is also weaker 1v1 than D/P thieves (particularly 20606, and also clearly against 60206), S/D (20066 badly, 26006 slightly).

D/D exists to style on prey on weaker players outside of matchmaking in WvW, and on builds made for zerging instead of skirmishing. It has no place at all in sPvP.

Ensign.2189:

D/D is far inferior to D/P at +1ing fights as it has no ability to enter a fight from stealth without burning cooldowns, which increases their threat dramatically.

Other professions +1 fights without stealth, why is that a requirement for Thieves? How about S/D +1 fights?

I think the problem here is the perception that the Thief has to be in stealth to +1 fight, which is absolutely not true.

S/D is superior because of spammable immobilize and faster rotations.

Immob is hardly “spammable”, that’s a misnomer.

In terms of damage, D/D is full offensive. But in terms of utility, it’s a toss up between D/P and S/D — that’s why these two are preferred.

D/D has an advantage against foes that are asleep (and don’t respond in the 1s between the C&D landing and the backstab), terrible (and out of cooldowns), or running bad builds (that run out of responses to a C&D before the thief gets bored). It is utterly irrelevant in competitive play.

Exaggeration much. Depending in team composition and strategy, but if the team builds around in setting things up so that their D/D can finish the opponent off, then you’ll see more of D/D. The only limiting factor in sPvP is the perception that there’s only one way to win a match. However, I don’t blame them since this is what ArenaNet wants.

Correct. Even when specced and played perfectly, they are clearly and markedly inferior to S/D and D/P builds, and largely inferior to S/P.

The only deciding factor is utility skills, which I agree, S/D has immob and cleanse, D/P has blind and interrupt — but in terms of damage, D/D has 5 skills that are pure damage.

So if the goal of +1 is to burst down the target, then one could only wonder why not take D/D.

This is why the population of D/D thieves in competitive PvP matches is exactly zero.

Which is sad really.

It struggles in 2v1 situations for reasons mentioned above. While it has a stronger burst against, say, weak players fighting a berserker staff elementalist for zergs, it is markedly inferior to competent players are hard to kill targets like D/D eles and cele rifle engineers. It is also weaker 1v1 than D/P thieves (particularly 20606, and also clearly against 60206), S/D (20066 badly, 26006 slightly).

I agree when it comes to a well rounded weapon set, but the D/Ds damage output is simply undeniable.

D/D exists to style on prey on weaker players outside of matchmaking in WvW, and on builds made for zerging instead of skirmishing. It has no place at all in sPvP.

I suspect that it might show up in sPvP after the expack.

Nephrite.6954:

DeceiverX.8361:

King Noob IV.3560:

Hmmm ok so now I get that D/D, with meta builds, is useless compared to D/P in sPvP because of D/P’s ease of stealth and utility with teams. Now I don’t get why so many people play D/D in WvW. I understand that it’s more fun, but if that were the case then people would play it in sPvP too, so there must be something it does in WvW better than D/P but I don’t know what. Considering D/P has a gap closer on 3 and since WvW is very spacey for people to run away/kite I’d assume D/P is better in WvW.

Mostly because D/D builds are able to reach around 4 thousand power in WvW, and people in WvW have inherently lower defenses, all while CnD and other abilities do more damage due to sPvP-only nerfs. A thief when expending all of his resources can actually be played to burst people down in WvW unlike being forced into blindspam skirmishing in sPvP.

D/P still works fine (a lot of roamers use it for the permanent stealth uptime and skirmishing potential against tankier foes), but it’s a lot less fun if you’re not a big fan of stealth. D/D plays with stealth, but it’s more about the backstabs/coming out of stealth than anything else.

Did you gank an up leveled Necro or what?

No. I play signet stab with the best possible gear and the physically highest amount of power and damage modifiers available to the thief in the game in regards to a reliable stab. My thief is fully maxed, including six power omni infusions in the armor to provide the extra 30 power other thieves normally do not have. My build cannot possibly deal more damage in the very short time it can perform the stab. Only an RT-waiting luck-stab build can deal more damage, but I discount builds which are totally dependent on your enemies allowing for you to set up, and have them not try to negate a backstab or even move after the CnD.

Against level 80 foes, my backstab rarely hits for below 13k against soldier’s warriors, and an upwards of 22k on glassier targets. Uplevels are usually killed from the Cloak and Dagger alone and thus I don’t consider the damage dealt valid. I have peaked at 30k on an uplevel in downed state, but there is no reason to brag about high damage on an uplevel.

In sPvP, the same build yields on average around 6k damage stabs, inherently lower CnD’s, and is punished more due to constant fighting rather than the ability to run, wait, reset cooldowns, etc. Again D/D hurts way more if you make sacrifices since CnD and Mug will hit similarly to a stab in WvW, or more if the CnD crits. With the sPvP meta being focused more heavily on tankier builds, overall increased damage mitigation, and reduced power/ferocity from WvW, this doesn’t help, either.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The only limiting factor in sPvP is the perception that there’s only one way to win a match.

The major limiting factor in sPvP is that D/D just isn’t very good. Amongst people who seem to know what they are doing, there’s a ton of D/P (which is simply the best build right now), a decent amount of S/D, a bit less P/D (which serves as a ‘you must be at least this tall to proceed’ build that wrecks people who have no idea how to rotate), with a smattering of S/P (brave soldiers they are) and P/P (kitten Wirriam stop trolling). You never see D/D.

It’s not because people aren’t creative or aren’t trying it or are utterly single minded – hell, you can hop in a hotjoin (without matchmaking!) or jump on a smurf and will see tons of D/D around. It’s being played, a lot. It’s simply a huge handicap to whoever is playing it, and no one has been able to make it work well enough to get within shouting distance of tournament level player.

Ensign.2189:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The only limiting factor in sPvP is the perception that there’s only one way to win a match.

The major limiting factor in sPvP is that D/D just isn’t very good. Amongst people who seem to know what they are doing, there’s a ton of D/P (which is simply the best build right now), a decent amount of S/D, a bit less P/D (which serves as a ‘you must be at least this tall to proceed’ build that wrecks people who have no idea how to rotate), with a smattering of S/P (brave soldiers they are) and P/P (kitten Wirriam stop trolling). You never see D/D.

It’s not because people aren’t creative or aren’t trying it or are utterly single minded – hell, you can hop in a hotjoin (without matchmaking!) or jump on a smurf and will see tons of D/D around. It’s being played, a lot. It’s simply a huge handicap to whoever is playing it, and no one has been able to make it work well enough to get within shouting distance of tournament level player.

It’s not even about the skill. it’s more about how the current meta builds within the competitive scene prohibit its use largely. It’s a sub-optimal burst set against anything that isn’t berserker due to the overall lack-luster damage the offhand dagger brings with the nerfs, and brings no utility to the table when the current meta is focused so heavily on team utility and fast heals shutting down burst specs. It saw plenty of play before the whole celestial ordeal and the establishment of very specific builds on points/interactions because it could hold its own against glassy opponents.

Since the build provides so much damage in WvW in comparison, it sees a lot of play since it’s actually capable of bursting targets a bit on the more durable end, keeping the set useful, especially for blob periphery; EP’s incredible GvG record and wins against other major guilds have largely come from the extreme D/D burst thieves it uses to combat the backline before they start racking up damage.

The problem with D/D is that it won’t really ever be viable as long as CnD remains nerfed, the format remains based on small-scale skirmishes of inherently more durable builds, and power is not easily achieved as a stat. I say this in the respect that it depends heavily on having an excess of power and ferocity to overcome your opponent’s defenses to achieve it’s goal: burst damage. Otherwise it provides no utility and if incapable of performing a high-profile trade, is not worth using.

DeceiverX.8361:

Ensign.2189:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The only limiting factor in sPvP is the perception that there’s only one way to win a match.

The major limiting factor in sPvP is that D/D just isn’t very good. Amongst people who seem to know what they are doing, there’s a ton of D/P (which is simply the best build right now), a decent amount of S/D, a bit less P/D (which serves as a ‘you must be at least this tall to proceed’ build that wrecks people who have no idea how to rotate), with a smattering of S/P (brave soldiers they are) and P/P (kitten Wirriam stop trolling). You never see D/D.

It’s not because people aren’t creative or aren’t trying it or are utterly single minded – hell, you can hop in a hotjoin (without matchmaking!) or jump on a smurf and will see tons of D/D around. It’s being played, a lot. It’s simply a huge handicap to whoever is playing it, and no one has been able to make it work well enough to get within shouting distance of tournament level player.

It’s not even about the skill. it’s more about how the current meta builds within the competitive scene prohibit its use largely. It’s a sub-optimal burst set against anything that isn’t berserker due to the overall lack-luster damage the offhand dagger brings with the nerfs, and brings no utility to the table when the current meta is focused so heavily on team utility and fast heals shutting down burst specs. It saw plenty of play before the whole celestial ordeal and the establishment of very specific builds on points/interactions because it could hold its own against glassy opponents.

Since the build provides so much damage in WvW in comparison, it sees a lot of play since it’s actually capable of bursting targets a bit on the more durable end, keeping the set useful, especially for blob periphery; EP’s incredible GvG record and wins against other major guilds have largely come from the extreme D/D burst thieves it uses to combat the backline before they start racking up damage.

The problem with D/D is that it won’t really ever be viable as long as CnD remains nerfed, the format remains based on small-scale skirmishes of inherently more durable builds, and power is not easily achieved as a stat. I say this in the respect that it depends heavily on having an excess of power and ferocity to overcome your opponent’s defenses to achieve it’s goal: burst damage. Otherwise it provides no utility and if incapable of performing a high-profile trade, is not worth using.

I think everything you said sums it up pretty well. Maybe with the new trait system they’ll rework Deathblossom and bring CnD back up to a 1.5 multiplier. Wishful thinking I guess.

funny topic)

one of prev. games – starts from 1h05m
http://www.twitch.tv/brunners90/b/656158419

Ensign.2189:

It’s not because people aren’t creative or aren’t trying it or are utterly single minded – hell, you can hop in a hotjoin (without matchmaking!) or jump on a smurf and will see tons of D/D around. It’s being played, a lot. It’s simply a huge handicap to whoever is playing it, and no one has been able to make it work well enough to get within shouting distance of tournament level player.

I agree that D/D is lacking defensive skills and the nerf on CnD made it undesirable, but is the real reason why people aren’t using is because it is really useless or just because it was nerfed and people are simply boycotting it?

Hotjoin will not prove or disprove anything since it is unorganized and lacking leadership. In a more organized team with team-captain and coach, I’m sure it would be a meta-breaking strategy with the right players if they actually put an effort into it.

Right now, all tournament matches are closely identical because everyone is practically doing the same thing — it’s bland and boring since all teams have similar team composition doing the same exact strategy.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ensign.2189:

It’s not because people aren’t creative or aren’t trying it or are utterly single minded – hell, you can hop in a hotjoin (without matchmaking!) or jump on a smurf and will see tons of D/D around. It’s being played, a lot. It’s simply a huge handicap to whoever is playing it, and no one has been able to make it work well enough to get within shouting distance of tournament level player.

I agree that D/D is lacking defensive skills and the nerf on CnD made it undesirable, but is the real reason why people aren’t using is because it is really useless or just because it was nerfed and people are simply boycotting it?

Hotjoin will not prove or disprove anything since it is unorganized and lacking leadership. In a more organized team with team-captain and coach, I’m sure it would be a meta-breaking strategy with the right players if they actually put an effort into it.

Right now, all tournament matches are closely identical because everyone is practically doing the same thing — it’s bland and boring since all teams have similar team composition doing the same exact strategy.

It’s not “oh it’s nerfed so it can’t be in the meta/worthwhile,” so much as it is “it got nerfed, we tried to find ways to make it still work, with mediocre success, and then the meta changed in a way which directly counters D/D as a set and how it’s played, so now it’s actually just terrible since it has no use in the format at all under the competitive scene.”

Well I believe that Deceiver and Vincent already gave the answer to the post.

I do play D/D on Ranked and Unranked when I am playing solo. Though I usually switch to D/P when playing in team since I know it is better.

From my experience, D/D plays nice on low ranked games. Though against high end players it falls short since C&D is easier to counter outside surprise attacks.

D/D advantages are the quicker and higher burst. Tough some players learned how to counter C&D, it doesn’t change the fact that the burst is way quicker than other weapon sets. half a second and it’s over. Meanwhile D/P is more “predicable” since the Thief must drop the BP, use heartseeker and then BS you. (in the usual combo, at least).
Also uses less initiative and you can burst one extra time (assuming you never missed C&D) than D/P with the same build. This pays the difference against classes like elementarists. I can affirm that there isn’t a single Thief build able to kill elementarist faster than D/D.
Lastly, you have midranged damage on call. Tough some people don’t like Dancing Dagger, it deals great damage if it hits multiple targets, and works wonders against rangers and mesmers.
Lastly, D/D can deal two full bursts of around 12k damage in the first 5 seconds of any skirmish. This is awesome when +1 fights.

Now for the bad points:
- People say that the best anti-thief are thief themselves. Well D/D thiefs hit the rock bottom here. Though it’s true that we kill faster, D/D thiefs can’t counter other thiefs unless you are a real master at killing thieves with Shortbow or have someone covering you. Which means that D/D thiefs can’t cover some roles that D/P and S/D usually covers on high end teams. Someone else will need to take this job.

- No interrupt on demand. No blind on demand. No team support on demand.
D/D is a lonewolf in the battlefield that can’t do anything besides +1 fights.

- Requires less technique to play then D/P. But requires more player skill to play as efficient as D/P.
D/D can substitute a D/P thief if they train enough. Sadly with the same amount of training a D/P thief is already covering his role and using the spare time to lean some advanced tactics.

- D/P is self-sufficient. D/D Thiefs must keep swapping between SB and D/D the whole fight to cover it’s own weakness. Though this gives advantages on other departments, it’s true that, sometimes, you will need to delay your burst for the next 9 seconds because you are forced to swap to keep fighting.

Right. D/D can probably work fine in most unranked/lower-ranked games because players are either not using the meta builds very well/are learning, or are simply not using what is in the top-tier meta. I say this because the amount of success my GS/Rifle burst-zerker warrior has in unranked games is astonishingly high.

Once players start playing the meta builds better/start using them, D/D thief falls flat on its face just because of the nature of how the meta builds work and how D/D thief works.

Forcing D/D to play against the meta will surely make it look bad, but I have not seen a team that uses Thief’s high burst instead they use Thief as a Pony Express delivery guy. As long as this perception and use of talent remains the same, we’ll see more and more boring tournament games. I’ve seen teams uses Warrior as a bruiser and can’t to wonder why they’re not using Thief instead.

I understand and acknowledge all the weakness of the weapon set, however most of the flaw only exists because it was given a job that only certain weapon set can fulfill.