Guild Wars 2

A new tournament just finished and we have REAL information about warrior balance instead of biased, anecdotal, and “Give me back my I win button” posts.

What are REAL top level teams using? Is there a screaming horde of Warriors ruining tPvp? Let’s look at REAL information.

Out of 8 teams-
9 Rangers
8 Guardians
6 Warriors
5Thieves
5 Necros
5 Engineers
2 Mesmers

Whaaaat? No 300 “For Sparta!!”? Warriors are performing on par with expectation of 5 spots per 40!! For the first time!! I actually did a breakdown of the PAX/ESL top 8 teams in another thread and they were still much lower, so this is the first time they actually take equal footing!

Let’s talk about some result tidbits.

Guardians, Rangers, Thieves, and Engineers all showed up with varied specs. Warriors had 1 spec, so right now warrior only has 1 viable top end tPvp spec. Hammer/longbow.

Guard/Ranger? These guys are too strong. Maybe not their single abilities or stats. But something about the way they add to groups, ease of play, crazy utilities, something is making them way overbalanced. I don’t have a solution, but the reality is there.

Engineers!! Engineers making a comeback! Low low numbers in PAX/ESL, but not today? Why? Well maybe because warriors are showing up so Necro isn’t always the best condi-spam class anymore? And did you see that Rifle/Power Engi eating warriors?? “Come here little engie, hammer smas…holywhatdafuuuuq abort abort!”

Necros! Necros go from grossly over represented PAX/ESL to right in line with others. Common theme of team fights, warrior joins fight, sees necro, omgcomehuggleswitme!! If warrior isn’t in fight, necro lays waste everywhere almost without restriction.

Mesmer! Still low, but their ability to counter warriors was nutz. Shatter build? What dat? And they had some great all around sneakiness with portals. Watching a ranger solo capping only to see a warrior and guardian pop out of a portal on top of him… Priceless. Winning team had a mesmer, why doesn’t yours?

Warriors do not need shaved, they do not need nerfed. They are just now making an impact and ADDING game balance by opening room for new classes. Quit demanding nerfs so you can feel like a hot join/soloq/dueling/roaming hero. Thats the kind of thing that RUINS competitive game and destroys professions. Example, Elementalists. Oh, where for art though sparky/flamey/watery/muddy ones? Nerfed into oblivion because people asked for too much too fast and didn’t realize the impact.

Warriors are in a dangerous position. Sigil of Para changes may ruin the one tPvp spec they have. If that necro isn’t locked down, why bring a warrior at all? Might need to add something to keep them in the place they are now. I don’t mind trying it, but Anet needs to watch it close close.

Lose warrior, lose Engie, lose Mesm.

It’s naive to measure the balance by those pure numbers. Certain professions fulfill certain roles in a team. Synergy between professions matters. For example, the S/D thief was and still is borderline OP, but you won’t see any team running more than one S/D thief in their setup. While the S/D thief fills out its role perfectly, the team would benefit little from another S/D.

By your logic – by pure numbers – the Guardian must be the most overpowered profession. In reality however, the Guardian is the most balanced profession. You have to evaluate the professions in the context of the team composition.

FirstBlood.7359:

It’s naive to measure the balance by those pure numbers. Certain professions fulfill certain roles in a team. Synergy between professions matters.

Yeah.. ok.. true.. But still, where is teh elementalist ?!? ahahahaha.. poor guys

Intuneric.7652:

FirstBlood.7359:

It’s naive to measure the balance by those pure numbers. Certain professions fulfill certain roles in a team. Synergy between professions matters.

Yeah.. ok.. true.. But still, where is teh elementalist ?!? ahahahaha.. poor guys

They are on our forums complaining about our traits and trying to get them nerfed like children instead of trying to get there class fixed.

It’s naive NOT to use hard numbers like this for balance. You cannot deal with any one variable in a vacuum when dealing with this complex of a system. Post after post after post about comparing this ability in class A to an ability in class B. Can’t be done. You have to take the total package and see how it performs.

Example:
Mole says to Eagle “Your vision is totally OP. Why do you get to see me from 100yds in the air? Why do you get claws that grab? Why do you get wings?”

Mole is blind, mole is earthbound, mole has no defensive weapons. But reality is that mole is far more successful at survival than Eagle. The numbers of moles is greater, they are adapted to success with tools perfectly made for their situation. Taking the big picture is the only way to actually gauge.

And yes Guardian is possibly one of the most unbalanced professions in tPvp. Possibly out done by Ranger, but it’s close. No team played without a guardian, some teams played with 2 rangers. That isn’t balanced at all. Someone should compete with that spot, someone should be able to fill those roles equally well so teams have variation.

Does that mean you weaken ranger and guardian? Maybe tweak, I dunno. I’m sure they are on a razor’s edge the same as warrior. Shave anything and they might tip to uselessness. Maybe you strengthen a competing profession? Make someone else able to do the job, or neutralize those classes. Regardless. Yes, they currently bring too much to the table.

Iscariot.4876:

It’s naive NOT to use hard numbers like this for balance. You cannot deal with any one variable in a vacuum when dealing with this complex of a system. Post after post after post about comparing this ability in class A to an ability in class B. Can’t be done. You have to take the total package and see how it performs.

Example:
Mole says to Eagle “Your vision is totally OP. Why do you get to see me from 100yds in the air? Why do you get claws that grab? Why do you get wings?”

Mole is blind, mole is earthbound, mole has no defensive weapons. But reality is that mole is far more successful at survival than Eagle. The numbers of moles is greater, they are adapted to success with tools perfectly made for their situation. Taking the big picture is the only way to actually gauge.

And yes Guardian is possibly one of the most unbalanced professions in tPvp. Possibly out done by Ranger, but it’s close. No team played without a guardian, some teams played with 2 rangers. That isn’t balanced at all. Someone should compete with that spot, someone should be able to fill those roles equally well so teams have variation.

Does that mean you weaken ranger and guardian? Maybe tweak, I dunno. I’m sure they are on a razor’s edge the same as warrior. Shave anything and they might tip to uselessness. Maybe you strengthen a competing profession? Make someone else able to do the job, or neutralize those classes. Regardless. Yes, they currently bring too much to the table.

Rangers must be OP, bring waaaay to much to the table and over-represented.

FirstBlood.7359:

By your logic – by pure numbers – the Guardian must be the most overpowered profession. In reality however, the Guardian is the most balanced profession. You have to evaluate the professions in the context of the team composition.

See, I think there’s a misconception here.

Everyone seems to think that the Guardian is either balanced, unbalanced (not OP or UP, just unbalanced) or just OP.

It’s really weird. I’m wondering if the Guardian really is balanced but can’t be seen for it because no other class is. Or, maybe, it really is OP because it’s balanced and no other class is.

Still, regardless, Guardians do their job exceptionally well, more so than any other profession. Which really is a shame, if you think about it.

Daecollo.9578:

Intuneric.7652:

FirstBlood.7359:

It’s naive to measure the balance by those pure numbers. Certain professions fulfill certain roles in a team. Synergy between professions matters.

Yeah.. ok.. true.. But still, where is teh elementalist ?!? ahahahaha.. poor guys

They are on our forums complaining about our traits and trying to get them nerfed like children instead of trying to get there class fixed.

Lol’d a little. I don’t even main elementalist

Lina.9640:

FirstBlood.7359:

By your logic – by pure numbers – the Guardian must be the most overpowered profession. In reality however, the Guardian is the most balanced profession. You have to evaluate the professions in the context of the team composition.

See, I think there’s a misconception here.

Everyone seems to think that the Guardian is either balanced, unbalanced (not OP or UP, just unbalanced) or just OP.

It’s really weird. I’m wondering if the Guardian really is balanced but can’t be seen for it because no other class is. Or, maybe, it really is OP because it’s balanced and no other class is.

Still, regardless, Guardians do their job exceptionally well, more so than any other profession. Which really is a shame, if you think about it.

This is one reason you have to look at the entire system when trying to gauge. You are completely correct, Guardians may or may not actually be OP. It may actually be that just the system as a whole is slightly out of whack. Its one reason that Anet devs need to make minor, slow changes and gather good data in between.

Iscariot.4876:

Out of 8 teams-
9 Rangers
8 Guardians
6 Warriors
5Thieves
5 Necros
5 Engineers
2 Mesmers

I want to point out, that EVERY class is used besides the elementalist. Just wanted to post it here, maybe a dev or one of the “Balance-guys” will come across it. Dont tell me I should post this on the elementalists forum, you ll NEVER see a ANet guy there – they just like to ignore all the QQ on the eleforum.

But hey, we are fine ANet.

Fasyx.9347:

Iscariot.4876:

Out of 8 teams-
9 Rangers
8 Guardians
6 Warriors
5Thieves
5 Necros
5 Engineers
2 Mesmers

I want to point out, that EVERY class is used besides the elementalist. Just wanted to post it here, maybe a dev or one of the “Balance-guys” will come across it. Dont tell me I should post this on the elementalists forum, you ll NEVER see a ANet guy there – they just like to ignore all the QQ on the eleforum.

But hey, we are fine ANet.

Hey I’m with ya. Would be nice to see Ele and Mesmer competing for some of those Guard and Ranger spots. Mesmer might keep bumping up if Warrior stays around, so they may get some… But I’m kinda scared they are gonna get the thief spots because it seems so hard to compete with Rang/Guard group strengths.

If they adjust Ele just a tad, I could see them having the group synergy with Warr for combo fields etc to maybe compete.

Anyway, no class should be left out in the cold.

You see warriors in tournaments mainly because they are a counter to the necro/condition spam. They are brought into teams mainly as a counter to something the enemy team does, more so than actually bringing something to the team. Once the meta shifts away from a condition spam one, you will probably see alot more Mesmers, and more thieves and maybe different warrior specs. Guardians will always remain viable no matter what kind of meta it is, I can see it being the same for rangers as well although different specs need to be more viable.

These type of numbers, while not the begin all end all when it comes to balance is very useful in gauging where classes are at in the current meta and whether they need tweaking so they more viable for tournament play.

Iscariot.4876:

This is one reason you have to look at the entire system when trying to gauge. You are completely correct, Guardians may or may not actually be OP. It may actually be that just the system as a whole is slightly out of whack. Its one reason that Anet devs need to make minor, slow changes and gather good data in between.

I mostly agree with this, though I believe that a couple of professions outright and several trait lines are so completely broken that it will require significant and drastic changes. Elementalist and thief are particularly broken, for example. They have really awkward mechanics, poorly designed trait lines, and vaguely defined vision.

This is why the Guardian is so powerful. The Guardian has an excellent base and its traits were decently designed. On top of that, nearly all of its weapons are useful in some form or another. It’s pretty much the only class that can go Damage, Support, and Defense, though obviously it’s better at tanking and support than DPS, but Anet seems to be willing to change that. It really is the gold standard class and Anet continues to dote on them while ignoring or gutting other professions, which is bound to create some resentment.

Right now, Warrior is in a good place. Once a few things are adjusted, it should be nearly as popular as the Guardian in most modes of play. My worry is that the player base has gotten used to Anet milk feeding them and will throw a major whine-fest when other professions are brought up to average instead of ‘free kills’.

Warrior forums are filled with awesome ideas to improve the class, meanwhile other forums are filled with whining, and its bleeding into our class Area.

Warriors never went on other forums and QQed and asked for nerfs to other classes, WE wanted improvements to ours.

Warriors never went on other forums and QQed and asked for nerfs to other classes, WE wanted improvements to ours.

No it’s just mostly warriors complaining about thieves and vice versa. We practically hate each other.

If I could have 1 cent for everytime a warrior claiming how imba backstab is for hitting X damage on their oh so high armor then I’d be rich.

Excalibur.9748:

Warriors never went on other forums and QQed and asked for nerfs to other classes, WE wanted improvements to ours.

No it’s just mostly warriors complaining about thieves and vice versa. We practically hate each other.

If I could have 1 cent for everytime a warrior claiming how imba backstab is for hitting X damage on their oh so high armor then I’d be rich.

I agree with that warr and thieves spend too much time arguing. I don’t think it’s beneficial to the game as a whole. I have 80s of both, my first two classes.

The biggest reason I think they are natural enemies is that they compete for similar spots in groups and teams. Notice PAX/ESL; 6 Thief, 3 Warr. Now in MLG 6 Warr, 5 Thief. The two just naturally compete for high damage, high mobility spots.

I feel if the numbers stay in the 5-6 representatives per top 40 each, they both look pretty close. Just hold off until other classes start reaching the same numbers. Nerf QQ on both sides should just be put on simmer instead of broil.

FirstBlood.7359:

It’s naive to measure the balance by those pure numbers. Certain professions fulfill certain roles in a team. Synergy between professions matters. For example, the S/D thief was and still is borderline OP, but you won’t see any team running more than one S/D thief in their setup. While the S/D thief fills out its role perfectly, the team would benefit little from another S/D.

By your logic – by pure numbers – the Guardian must be the most overpowered profession. In reality however, the Guardian is the most balanced profession. You have to evaluate the professions in the context of the team composition.

And as a game balanced around team play…

Why can’t we just play both warrior and thief and realize they’re pretty much on equal footing with each other. Both seem to receive about the same amount of QQ lately anyway.

Lina.9640:

This is why the Guardian is so powerful. The Guardian has an excellent base and its traits were decently designed. On top of that, nearly all of its weapons are useful in some form or another. It’s pretty much the only class that can go Damage, Support, and Defense, though obviously it’s better at tanking and support than DPS, but Anet seems to be willing to change that. It really is the gold standard class and Anet continues to dote on them while ignoring or gutting other professions, which is bound to create some resentment.

Would you call greatsword useful except for its aesthetic value? Would you call torch useful? Would you call sword useful?

Conquest with all its mechanics makes the Guardian so popular. The Guardian lacks mobility, but compensates with support and bunkering abilities. With this unique mix the Guardian fits into the role of the point defender that teams need on every map. In contrast to the old elementalist – great support, high mobility and insane sustain – the guardian has clear weaknesses such as the lack of mobility. That’s why the old bunkering elementalist was OP, while the guardian has always been balanced.

Back to the warrior: Currently, the warrior is out of balance for the same reason. Even bad players can bring the warrior with its low skillcap to great effect. The warrior offers too much for too little effort and does not have a clear weak spot.

Ah, and the “Don’t Nerf Me Bro!” threads are coming in now. The surest telltale sign that people know they’ve got something OP is when they cry “Don’t Nerf Me Bro!” on their class’ subforum in so many, many ways. Remember all the “pistol whip is fine!” posts? Remeber all the “elementalists aren’t OP” posts? Next thing you know all you see from the warrior forums is 50% “L2P” posts with “more words” written after it. Starting to sound a lot like thieves (who btw aren’t balanced yet either, but Anet is trying to take care of stealth in a more interesting counter-play method).

Warriors are OP in the healing department guys. Its an all-passive healing system that exists on a high mobility, high defense, high cc, high hp, high damage class. Yeah, the warrior needs to have a reason to stop and think sometimes.

As I have said, will say, and will continue to say until the nerf bat comes: Traits need to be moved and Healing Signet needs a passive nerf with a buff to its active so as to make it a skill-based skill and not a “use this, hit one less button, and win” skill.

Especially when its as crucial a button to time properly as the heal skill. No class should ever have their most important skill use itself at all the right times and exist outside of CC counterplay; which is, effectively, what Healing Signet does right now.

FirstBlood.7359:

Lina.9640:

This is why the Guardian is so powerful. The Guardian has an excellent base and its traits were decently designed. On top of that, nearly all of its weapons are useful in some form or another. It’s pretty much the only class that can go Damage, Support, and Defense, though obviously it’s better at tanking and support than DPS, but Anet seems to be willing to change that. It really is the gold standard class and Anet continues to dote on them while ignoring or gutting other professions, which is bound to create some resentment.

Would you call greatsword useful except for its aesthetic value? Would you call torch useful? Would you call sword useful?

Conquest with all its mechanics makes the Guardian so popular. The Guardian lacks mobility, but compensates with support and bunkering abilities. With this unique mix the Guardian fits into the role of the point defender that teams need on every map. In contrast to the old elementalist – great support, high mobility and insane sustain – the guardian has clear weaknesses such as the lack of mobility. That’s why the old bunkering elementalist was OP, while the guardian has always been balanced.

Back to the warrior: Currently, the warrior is out of balance for the same reason. Even bad players can bring the warrior with its low skillcap to great effect. The warrior offers too much for too little effort and does not have a clear weak spot.

You cannot argue that a class that is grossly over-represented is balanced while a class that is sitting in-line with representation is out of balance. The actual evidence completely negates your anecdotal statements. And Guardian’s “lack of mobility” is actually identical mobility to almost every class except a Thief bringing a sb. No other prof can bring a high mobility spec to tPvp anyway.

To your statement that warriors are too low skill-cap, so what? Even if it were true that warriors were lower skill-cap than other professions, the total package isn’t so powerful that it over competes at top levels. You can’t balance the game around the worst players, you have to balance it around the best.

And anyway. EVERY single class is low skill-cap, that is part of the balancing. It is just false and misdirecting to use “skill-cap” as an argument. An individual ability might not seem unbalanced but if it allows some much greater ease of use, it pushes balance. Ease of use and power go hand in hand.

The sPvP boards are lighting up about pets and AI control. Rangers Spirits aren’t that much different than banners for warriors. But they come with AI and mobility making them less clunky a mechanic. Most current meta classes use ranged AoE, why? Because it is so much easier to use than anything else. You can spend almost 100% of your time actively avoiding damage without sacrificing your ability to do damage. How much nicer is it to have short cast abilities with no animation differences over having slow unique animations?

Elementalist top of pvp for 1 year , dont cry for them guys !

I’m happy to see Warriors in the tourny!

I am sad, however, to learn they’re all the same build, more or less. Warriors do need some buffs (read on before flaming) to their lesser used skills, and some of their worthless traits.

The stuff that warriors have now, that are getting them into tournys are obviously fine. That is to say, all #6 heals are in good shape. Berserker stance is good, as are all of our signets, battle standard, etc.

The things that need some love are: Axe 2-5, Greatsword F1, Thick Skin, Reckless Dodge, both longbow traits (fix the bugs), Rampage, and the 7-9 utility banners in PvP/WvW. I’m sure there are plenty of others.

Just look at what is being used, and what isn’t.

Buffing these underdog skills/traits shouldn’t really increase warrior strength as a whole, just increase the variety of builds out there.

Daecollo.9578:

Warrior forums are filled with awesome ideas to improve the class, meanwhile other forums are filled with whining, and its bleeding into our class Area.

Warriors never went on other forums and QQed and asked for nerfs to other classes, WE wanted improvements to ours.

actually they did. in mass to nerf confusion as confusion was actually strong vs spamming.
the problem i have with warriors is not in roaming or 1v1 spvp. i have a problem with the current godmode warriors in wvw. all u see is warriors and if u dont have a group with a lot of warriors u will be crushed. a group of mesmers vs a group of warriors is gonna be a guaranteed win for the warrior train.
the spvp warrior is ok and i understand the spvp warrior needed buffs badly as they were the worst of the worst before but the wvw warrior is absolutely not ok and the meta is getting out of hand.too much regen, healing, toughness,dps, cc and stability all at once.

Dand.8231:

I’m happy to see Warriors in the tourny!

I am sad, however, to learn they’re all the same build, more or less. Warriors do need some buffs (read on before flaming) to their lesser used skills, and some of their worthless traits.

The stuff that warriors have now, that are getting them into tournys are obviously fine. That is to say, all #6 heals are in good shape. Berserker stance is good, as are all of our signets, battle standard, etc.

The things that need some love are: Axe 2-5, Greatsword F1, Thick Skin, Reckless Dodge, both longbow traits (fix the bugs), Rampage, and the 7-9 utility banners in PvP/WvW. I’m sure there are plenty of others.

Just look at what is being used, and what isn’t.

Buffing these underdog skills/traits shouldn’t really increase warrior strength as a whole, just increase the variety of builds out there.

QQPoster99: ZMOG WQRRQRS DON’T NEED NO BUFFS EVER THEY ARE SO OP I CAN’T EVEN GET OUT OF STUNS WIF MY SPIRIT BUILD QQ NERF.

Yeah, the underdog skills do need buffed, for every class. That is what they are doing, buffing underused and broken skills.

Many people don’t understand that at all.

I find it entertaining that the most consistent posters to the warrior forum are people complaining about warrior. It’s like a dedicated QQ squad.

I won’t comment whether or not I think warriors should be nerfed, but I do want to point out that there was not only one build used in MLG. Despite my issues on home point, our warrior, Olrun the Blade (Sense of Tumor), did an excellent job as a mid bunker. Warrior has a lot more build options than Hammer/Longbow, and a few of them are seeing use by good teams.

mrook.4163:

I won’t comment whether or not I think warriors should be nerfed, but I do want to point out that there was not only one build used in MLG. Despite my issues on home point, our warrior, Olrun the Blade (Sense of Tumor), did an excellent job as a mid bunker. Warrior has a lot more build options than Hammer/Longbow, and a few of them are seeing use by good teams.

Thanks for pointing this out. I didn’t watch those matches fully before posting and the wiki didn’t have updated builds until a day or two ago. I did go find the matches on youtube and watch them after seeing your post.

Out of respect for a good player I’m not going to try and armchair critique the match. I’ll just say I think he did a heroic job. I would advise anyone curious to watch the matches themselves if they are interested in running a warrior mid bunker.

Thanks a bunch!

http://intothemists.com/guides/1004-banner_bunker_warrior

Here’s a guide to the build if anyone’s interested.