Guild Wars 2

i hate to have to say this but condi warriors are ridiculous and need toned down

theyre running healing signet/high toughness which makes them near invincible and they can drop people in seconds with sword/bow bleed/fire burst.

every time i see one they have full 25 condi buff from sigil and because they never die and drop people so quickly they create steamroll zergs which makes games utterly lopsided from the start

no single class spec should be able to carry an entire team and have such a huge impact on the outcome of the game

if they are able to drop people like flies they need to be killable and atm the healing signet is giving way to much regen to a spec that can deal so much condi damage (and for so long)

i know warriors need something but this is just full cheese mode

Fenrir.5493:

People who complain about warriors have no idea how patethic they look.

Now with that clear i will explain to you why this is not a warrior problem.

Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.

Condition damage is so easy to achieve because you only need one stat, and that is Condition damage, while power damage requires Power, Crit chance and Crit damage.

So you can wear a shamans amulet and have all you need to do great condi damage, have healing power and amazing toughness, the result is a tank that can do amazing condition damage.

This is a serious problem right now with the game ite clearly unbalanced towards condition damage because of this, but this is not a warrior problem its a general problem.

I completely disagree. I main necro (switched to power as currently our condi is the definition of cheese/faceroll) but I play condi warrior on a regular basis. The only bleed with a substantial uptime is the 6 stacks from the LB 5#. Besides that, the bleed burst from sword adren has a very short duration and can easily be avoided. They have 2 options for aoe burning on LB adren and LB#2 but even with that they have far less access to burning than engi, ranger, or pre-dhuum nerf necro. They have no access to poison and the best cover they have is sword #4 torment which gains stacks slowly compared to alot of condi application classes. 1v1 healing signet is good, but it is definitely not something that will help warriors sustain to the level they need in a team environment.

To play them successfully it takes timing and an opponent who has no idea of their weakness or skill as many of their abilities are highly telegraphed. Also to maximize the LB dmg Carrion amulet is the best as LB scales decently with power leaving many of them without much toughness. They can run condi amulets for their main stats but since their application is lacking overall/telegraphed/doesn’t always have a decent duration its best to (imho) to slightly hybridize to maximize damage.

Some warriors are becoming more viable and less risky for teams to (edit: for —→ to) run but most of them are not condi based, even LB/BS warriors generally run zerker which has no toughness or condi dmg. Condi for them is still not in a place where it can even compete with the top 3 condi classes (engi/ranger/necro) in survival or pressure. If you would like a further explanation on how this type of warrior works feel free to message me in-game.

But no, condi warriors do not need to be toned down. In fact, they still have a bit of work before they can/will be “meta” viable and are still far from undefeatable in HJ/sPvP. Hope this helps a little on the understanding side.

I usually never agree with Fenrir…but he is right here. This is a condition issue in general.

in my first post I forget to mention the other dmg condi they have access to. Confusion is definitely not something most condi warriors build for but it sure is fun but takes timing and skill to get any use out of. It will only proc when they interrupt a cast (4 stacks per interrupt) and most people are very aware of the warrior stuns/daze animations. I personally really get a kick out of LB + mace/sword but it is even less viable than the build I believe OP is referring to.

yes im aware that condi is out of control, but coupled with the warrior healing signet/high toughness/naturally high hp… you can barely put a dent in them before they melt you away (in seconds without condi removal)

i see high lvl condi wars and they completely decimate everyone. most their team follows them around like stink on poop cause they never die, so it turns into a ridiculous invincible zergfest and you can do nothing but just leave.

if you can melt people away in seconds, than you need to be able to die without a 4man focus

Which profession do you play?

i play all classes but i dont spec fotm

You just realised it now? i have been running healing signet shaman dual sword lb condi, but too bad it doesnt help the team to win. now im full on lockdown

Tellah.8073:

yes im aware that condi is out of control, but coupled with the warrior healing signet/high toughness/naturally high hp… you can barely put a dent in them before they melt you away (in seconds without condi removal)

i see high lvl condi wars and they completely decimate everyone. most their team follows them around like stink on poop cause they never die, so it turns into a ridiculous invincible zergfest and you can do nothing but just leave.

if you can melt people away in seconds, than you need to be able to die without a 4man focus

I already told you what is the issue here, and explain why warrior class is not the problem, its the condition damage stat that allows people to make tanky offensive characters, that has nothing to do with warrior, if conditions were balanced then this couldnt have happened.

To put another example i have a bunker mesmer that relies on the same mechanics of this kind of warrior, the thing is mesmer has acces to a lot of protection so.. just so you think about it.

Funniest topic title ever.

Fenrir.5493:

Tellah.8073:

yes im aware that condi is out of control, but coupled with the warrior healing signet/high toughness/naturally high hp… you can barely put a dent in them before they melt you away (in seconds without condi removal)

i see high lvl condi wars and they completely decimate everyone. most their team follows them around like stink on poop cause they never die, so it turns into a ridiculous invincible zergfest and you can do nothing but just leave.

if you can melt people away in seconds, than you need to be able to die without a 4man focus

I already told you what is the issue here, and explain why warrior class is not the problem, its the condition damage stat that allows people to make tanky offensive characters, that has nothing to do with warrior, if conditions were balanced then this couldnt have happened.

To put another example i have a bunker mesmer that relies on the same mechanics of this kind of warrior, the thing is mesmer has acces to a lot of protection so.. just so you think about it.

thats why i didnt say warriors are op, i said condi warriors are op. warriors just have a huge advantage with healing signet/toughness/hp on top of oppressive condi damage. even heavy condi necros could get cc’d, but tanky condi warriors are nearly invincible . necros got nerfed but this ridiculous warrior spec has gone seemingly unnoticed. personally i think the healing signet heals for too much. with banner regen/dolyak runes/healing amulet… you can hit almost 700 regen per second, and I wouldnt care if they werent dropping me like a cheap filipino massage therapist. so yes this mainly concerns condition proliferation, but coupled with warrior survivability its way over the top

Fenrir.5493:

Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.

Fenrir.5493:

Condition damage is so easy to achieve because you only need one stat, and that is Condition damage, while power damage requires Power, Crit chance and Crit damage.

So you can wear a shamans amulet and have all you need to do great condi damage, have healing power and amazing toughness, the result is a tank that can do amazing condition damage.

This is a serious problem right now with the game ite clearly unbalanced towards condition damage because of this, but this is not a warrior problem its a general problem.

Alright, let’s put it this way.

I plugged in some numbers into my spreadsheet, and I found that 500 power improves your average damage amount by approximately an additional 54.6%.

Now, for conditions (excluding Fear), I found that 500 condition damage improves:

- Bleed by 58.8%
- Burn by 38.1%
- Poison by 59.5%
- Confusion by 57.7%

Now, granted, adding 500 CD most of those conditions above increases damage by a slightly larger percentage than does power to overall direct damage (excluding burn, of course). However, there are really only three viable amulets for condi builds: Carrion, Shaman, and Rabid (at least, those are the three most commonly seen amulets).

Now, Carrion is a nice little amulet that turns out to be nearly useless. For both warriors and necros, health tends to be so high after buildcrafting that typically additional toughness is going to be desirable over additional health. Remember, also, that if your health is too high, your heal is almost negligible in the calculation of DPS. But what about the Power? That’s useful, right? Well, it would be to a direct damage build. Let’s look at the necro’s scepter, for example. Its coefficients are awful; the first two attacks in the auto-attack chain each have a rather unimpressive coefficient of .35. This tends to be the case with the majority of condition-applying weapons (the warrior’s sword is a little different, but it’s also a melee weapon, remember). Anyhow, a 62% damage increase on a base 200 damage attack (324 damage) isn’t exactly impressive, so the power is practically negligible as well. So that leaves us with just the condition damage, which is fairly good but requires a fairly useless first two stats.

The second amulet, Shaman’s… Christ, that’s an awful amulet to QQ about. At first glance, it might seem okay. 569 toughness gives Necros ~23.6% more damage reduction, and Warriors ~21.1% damage reduction. The condition damage isn’t bad either. So what’s the problem? Healing power. Healing power is the problem.

Healing power is currently one of the poorest stats in the game. 798 Healing Power currently improves my heal in my thief build by 11%, while the same amount of vitality (an essential defensive stat) makes my heal 42.5% worse. On the other hand, if you had 798 condition damage, you improve the power of your bleeds (for instance) by ~93.9%. I mean- I hate to be harsh, but unless you’re specifically going for being a bunker build, amulets that give you a lot of healing power are absolutely, thoroughly useless, and it’s stupid to even consider using them. For it to start mattering, you have to be healing a ton.

So that leaves us with Rabid Amulet. The toughness improves damage reduction by the same amount that Shaman’s does. Precision is a fairly weak stat (in both condi builds and in general), so it increases direct damage by a fairly meager amount, ~13%. However, the precision does allow you to use “on-crit” sigils fairly effectively; Sigils of Earth, Ice, Purity, and Nullification all become fairly useful options for a player to use. Remember that this comes at the cost of about 50% less direct damage, but then again, 50% doesn’t matter when you’re hardly dealing any direct damage anyways. Finally, as with Carrion, the condition damage is great.

In all honesty, none of the amulets are as good as they’re said to be. We could compare the three that were talked about, for example, to Soldier’s Amulet. Soldier’s increases damage by ~90.9% and damage that is able to be taken (not including healing) by ~96.5%. You want to see a real tanking amulet? That’s the one right there.

The truth of the matter is that conditions are not OP, most people just frankly suck at dealing with them. L2P fools.

EDIT: I made a few errors with some of my numbers on the Shaman’s Amulet, but nonetheless that hardly has any effect on the fact that HPower sucks a lot, unless you’re a bunker, for example.

Arganthium.5638:

Fenrir.5493:

Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.

ensoriki.5789:

Arganthium.5638:

Fenrir.5493:

Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.

This’ll be my motto ’till the day I die.

This is probably the warrior build that you may find to be problematic.

It is designed to be highly sustainable while also putting out great pressure through conditions. There are counters to it, though. This warrior’s only form of condition removal depends on landing burst skills (except when using longbow), so a well-timed evade will help you avoid damage, plus the warrior will not cleanse any conditions, too. Putting blinds on the warrior while his longbow is out is a good way to ensure that his #5 longbow skill will miss, which is a significant chunk of the warrior’s condition pressure. Etc. Lots of ways to counter it.

Just because a build works does not mean it’s broken. We don’t need to smush a class into the ground in order to achieve balance.

Arganthium.5638:

Fenrir.5493:

Condition damage is so easy to achieve because you only need one stat, and that is Condition damage, while power damage requires Power, Crit chance and Crit damage.

So you can wear a shamans amulet and have all you need to do great condi damage, have healing power and amazing toughness, the result is a tank that can do amazing condition damage.

This is a serious problem right now with the game ite clearly unbalanced towards condition damage because of this, but this is not a warrior problem its a general problem.

Alright, let’s put it this way.

I plugged in some numbers into my spreadsheet, and I found that 500 power improves your average damage amount by approximately an additional 54.6%.

Now, for conditions (excluding Fear), I found that 500 condition damage improves:

- Bleed by 58.8%
- Burn by 38.1%
- Poison by 59.5%
- Confusion by 57.7%

Now, granted, adding 500 CD most of those conditions above increases damage by a slightly larger percentage than does power to overall direct damage (excluding burn, of course). However, there are really only three viable amulets for condi builds: Carrion, Shaman, and Rabid (at least, those are the three most commonly seen amulets).

Now, Carrion is a nice little amulet that turns out to be nearly useless. For both warriors and necros, health tends to be so high after buildcrafting that typically additional toughness is going to be desirable over additional health. Remember, also, that if your health is too high, your heal is almost negligible in the calculation of DPS. But what about the Power? That’s useful, right? Well, it would be to a direct damage build. Let’s look at the necro’s scepter, for example. Its coefficients are awful; the first two attacks in the auto-attack chain each have a rather unimpressive coefficient of .35. This tends to be the case with the majority of condition-applying weapons (the warrior’s sword is a little different, but it’s also a melee weapon, remember). Anyhow, a 62% damage increase on a base 200 damage attack (324 damage) isn’t exactly impressive, so the power is practically negligible as well. So that leaves us with just the condition damage, which is fairly good but requires a fairly useless first two stats.

The second amulet, Shaman’s… Christ, that’s an awful amulet to QQ about. At first glance, it might seem okay. 569 toughness gives Necros ~23.6% more damage reduction, and Warriors ~21.1% damage reduction. The condition damage isn’t bad either. So what’s the problem? Healing power. Healing power is the problem.

Healing power is currently one of the poorest stats in the game. 798 Healing Power currently improves my heal in my thief build by 11%, while the same amount of vitality (an essential defensive stat) makes my heal 42.5% worse. On the other hand, if you had 798 condition damage, you improve the power of your bleeds (for instance) by ~93.9%. I mean- I hate to be harsh, but unless you’re specifically going for being a bunker build, amulets that give you a lot of healing power are absolutely, thoroughly useless, and it’s stupid to even consider using them. For it to start mattering, you have to be healing a ton.

So that leaves us with Rabid Amulet. The toughness improves damage reduction by the same amount that Shaman’s does. Precision is a fairly weak stat (in both condi builds and in general), so it increases direct damage by a fairly meager amount, ~13%. However, the precision does allow you to use “on-crit” sigils fairly effectively; Sigils of Earth, Ice, Purity, and Nullification all become fairly useful options for a player to use. Remember that this comes at the cost of about 50% less direct damage, but then again, 50% doesn’t matter when you’re hardly dealing any direct damage anyways. Finally, as with Carrion, the condition damage is great.

In all honesty, none of the amulets are as good as they’re said to be. We could compare the three that were talked about, for example, to Soldier’s Amulet. Soldier’s increases damage by ~90.9% and damage that is able to be taken (not including healing) by ~96.5%. You want to see a real tanking amulet? That’s the one right there.

The truth of the matter is that conditions are not OP, most people just frankly suck at dealing with them. L2P fools.

and so im supposed to take from this that everything’s alright?
the massive influx of condi builds and the 1st hand observations of condi builds dominating the meta are all just figments of my imagination and i just need to l2p?
the fact that top teams have turned heavily to condi builds are all just a random twist of fate?

cmon now lets be reasonable

Torment is crazy >→ on Warrior…

one thing i don’t get is why on earth warrior’s bleeding last soooooo kitten long compared to any other class? like wtf, i want 20sec+ of bleeds on my mesmer and ranger as well

Nuka Cola.8520:

one thing i don’t get is why on earth warrior’s bleeding last soooooo kitten long compared to any other class? like wtf, i want 20sec+ of bleeds on my mesmer and ranger as well

Because originally War only put out bleeding and burning. You have to make up for lack of condition variety somewhere (though it didn’t work).

Tellah.8073:

Fenrir.5493:

Tellah.8073:

yes im aware that condi is out of control, but coupled with the warrior healing signet/high toughness/naturally high hp… you can barely put a dent in them before they melt you away (in seconds without condi removal)

i see high lvl condi wars and they completely decimate everyone. most their team follows them around like stink on poop cause they never die, so it turns into a ridiculous invincible zergfest and you can do nothing but just leave.

if you can melt people away in seconds, than you need to be able to die without a 4man focus

I already told you what is the issue here, and explain why warrior class is not the problem, its the condition damage stat that allows people to make tanky offensive characters, that has nothing to do with warrior, if conditions were balanced then this couldnt have happened.

To put another example i have a bunker mesmer that relies on the same mechanics of this kind of warrior, the thing is mesmer has acces to a lot of protection so.. just so you think about it.

thats why i didnt say warriors are op, i said condi warriors are op. warriors just have a huge advantage with healing signet/toughness/hp on top of oppressive condi damage. even heavy condi necros could get cc’d, but tanky condi warriors are nearly invincible . necros got nerfed but this ridiculous warrior spec has gone seemingly unnoticed. personally i think the healing signet heals for too much. with banner regen/dolyak runes/healing amulet… you can hit almost 700 regen per second, and I wouldnt care if they werent dropping me like a cheap filipino massage therapist. so yes this mainly concerns condition proliferation, but coupled with warrior survivability its way over the top

So this is a dirty propaganda to nerf warriors?

Tellah.8073:

and so im supposed to take from this that everything’s alright?
the massive influx of condi builds and the 1st hand observations of condi builds dominating the meta are all just figments of my imagination and i just need to l2p?
the fact that top teams have turned heavily to condi builds are all just a random twist of fate?

cmon now lets be reasonable

Lemme tell you a story, young fella (and likely one that’ll get a bunch of people from the thief forums extremely angry at me… They know why).

A not-so-long time ago there lived a GW2 player who went by the username “Jumper”, and he played a thief called “Jumper X”. One day, he butts into an SOAC tournament that our later prodigy Arganthium was playing in. He magically manages to do well with his zerker S/D build against a team with 5 guardians running tons of boons. He is later credited with winning the match for the team, and, rather than at least giving some degree of credit to his teammates as any alleged “team player” like him would do, he basks in the glory given to him through all those watching the Twitch stream as well as the shoutcasters for the tournament.

Some time later…

Jumper is one of two co-hosts for the Revealed podcast, a podcast dedicated simply to talking about thieves. This being their first podcast, our prodigious young Arganthium.5638 asks a fairly normal albeit insightful question to the hosts. Simply put, the question was “Is 30 Critical Strikes (a thief trait line) really necessary for dealing damage?”. Because of its being apparently common knowledge, the two hosts both said that yes, it is. However, what they could not have known was that Arganthium would later plug some numbers into his magnificent mathematical machine, and find out that…

30 CS, looking at the stats (300 precision, +30% critical damage), only does about 1.4% more damage relative to base than does 10 DA (100 power).

Now, is this the end of the story? Of course not. There was a helluva lot of debate in the thief forums about some of the numbers that I had discovered a while ago, resulting in a lot of kitten among a whole bunch of people, etc etc. But that’s not the point. The point is that people are blinded by their own biases.

So why would people believe that precision (and technically crit damage as well) are both really good traits when, in all practicality, they’re both infinitely weaker than power? I suspect that it has to do with the visual apparency of damage. If I look at a trait and see that it says “Do 20% additional damage to foes under 50% health”, I might think “Oh! That’s marvelous. I’d love to do 20% additional damage!”. Now, if I see some really big numbers with a 50% critical chance with 0 additional crit damage, I might think “wow! That’s amazing! Precision is such an excellent stat!”. On the other hand, if I added 300 power to my build, I might not notice that I actually do ~32.75% more damage than beforehand. I’m not seeing some huge number with a big red background that basically shouts “HEY LOOK AT ME I’M AWESOME”. I might not realize that I’m actually doing ~10.25% more damage relative to base with 300 power than with 966 precision (yes, it’s that bad) because I’m not adding up the numbers and making an accurate statistical observation of each of them. It’s not exactly likely that some of the top players create 2-Sample T-Tests to measure the probability of one stat variation doing more damage than the other, or making 2-Sample Confidence Intervals to measure with a 95% level of confidence the average difference done in damage between the precision and power variations.

The fact of the matter is, when you see a big number pop out of your screen that hit for 1.5 times regular damage 50% of the time, and you see a bunch of fairly regular numbers that, under the covers, actually deal ~10% more damage on average, you might be persuaded to choose the more visually apparent stat even though it’s far worse.

But anyways, to get back to your comment: do I really believe that maybe, just maybe, some people might be wrong about how dominant some builds are? Of course. I believe that people are easily persuaded by experiential observations that are subject to their biases, and don’t look for more objective evidences to disprove them, in fear that they may be wrong.

Fenrir.5493:

Tellah.8073:

Fenrir.5493:

Tellah.8073:

yes im aware that condi is out of control, but coupled with the warrior healing signet/high toughness/naturally high hp… you can barely put a dent in them before they melt you away (in seconds without condi removal)

i see high lvl condi wars and they completely decimate everyone. most their team follows them around like stink on poop cause they never die, so it turns into a ridiculous invincible zergfest and you can do nothing but just leave.

if you can melt people away in seconds, than you need to be able to die without a 4man focus

I already told you what is the issue here, and explain why warrior class is not the problem, its the condition damage stat that allows people to make tanky offensive characters, that has nothing to do with warrior, if conditions were balanced then this couldnt have happened.

To put another example i have a bunker mesmer that relies on the same mechanics of this kind of warrior, the thing is mesmer has acces to a lot of protection so.. just so you think about it.

thats why i didnt say warriors are op, i said condi warriors are op. warriors just have a huge advantage with healing signet/toughness/hp on top of oppressive condi damage. even heavy condi necros could get cc’d, but tanky condi warriors are nearly invincible . necros got nerfed but this ridiculous warrior spec has gone seemingly unnoticed. personally i think the healing signet heals for too much. with banner regen/dolyak runes/healing amulet… you can hit almost 700 regen per second, and I wouldnt care if they werent dropping me like a cheap filipino massage therapist. so yes this mainly concerns condition proliferation, but coupled with warrior survivability its way over the top

So this is a dirty propaganda to nerf warriors?

you never know how anet will fix things. atm im sure there is enough public outcry about conditions to merit a change. hopefully any nerfs will fall solely on conditions and not classes themself. but either way… ive seen too many condi warrior tearing up the dance floor while rarely going below 50% health so something has to give.

cool story bro

but im not biased because i play most classes, and i play mediocre somewhat gimmicky specs and switch often instead of playing the top tier copypasta specs for months straight. the only thing i wont play is fotm specs.

and even after all your statistical observations (which in the end had nothing to do with the main subject), that doesnt change the fact that condi builds have flooded the meta because they have large inherent advantages and gives forward motion to the faceroll win-monkeys who just wanna run around in ezmode

Tellah.8073:

cool story bro

but im not biased because i play most classes, and i play mediocre somewhat gimmicky specs and switch often instead of playing the top tier copypasta specs for months straight. the only thing i wont play is fotm specs.

and even after all your statistical observations (which in the end had nothing to do with the main subject), that doesnt change the fact that condi builds have flooded the meta because they have large inherent advantages and gives forward motion to the faceroll win-monkeys who just wanna run around in ezmode

But you see, your entire post shows the real problem.

For one thing, you could be biased but not willing to accept it (we all are, to some degree), but I don’t have the ability to say that. What I can say is that the math shows that power is far superior to precision, and that’s why the meta is wrong, even though in the post right before your last one you stated that you couldn’t believe that the meta was wrong, that it was unrealistic.

(Before I should continue, I should mention that I don’t use statistics… And that I don’t have to. But it’s an option, albeit a tedious one)

You have to understand that my observations are entirely relevant. The only reason you believe that condi builds are so OP, as you’ve mentioned, is because they’re part of the meta. You don’t know why they’re part of the meta though, even though I’ve been the one providing tons of factual evidence within this thread to dispel any ideas that they’re as powerful as they’re considered to be. You can choose to believe that the meta is powerful, or open your horizons greatly and believe that we only think that the meta is powerful.

Arganthium.5638:

Tellah.8073:

cool story bro

but im not biased because i play most classes, and i play mediocre somewhat gimmicky specs and switch often instead of playing the top tier copypasta specs for months straight. the only thing i wont play is fotm specs.

and even after all your statistical observations (which in the end had nothing to do with the main subject), that doesnt change the fact that condi builds have flooded the meta because they have large inherent advantages and gives forward motion to the faceroll win-monkeys who just wanna run around in ezmode

But you see, your entire post shows the real problem.

For one thing, you could be biased but not willing to accept it (we all are, to some degree), but I don’t have the ability to say that. What I can say is that the math shows that power is far superior to precision, and that’s why the meta is wrong, even though in the post right before your last one you stated that you couldn’t believe that the meta was wrong, that it was unrealistic.

(Before I should continue, I should mention that I don’t use statistics… And that I don’t have to. But it’s an option, albeit a tedious one)

You have to understand that my observations are entirely relevant. The only reason you believe that condi builds are so OP, as you’ve mentioned, is because they’re part of the meta. You don’t know why they’re part of the meta though, even though I’ve been the one providing tons of factual evidence within this thread to dispel any ideas that they’re as powerful as they’re considered to be. You can choose to believe that the meta is powerful, or open your horizons greatly and believe that we only think that the meta is powerful.

that made no sense at all. condition specs are op. everyone is running condition specs. top teams are running condition specs. you can be tanky and melt away foes while power specs drop like flies. fotm condition specs are basically power specs with defense. they have high burst and heavy defense. this is the formula which made numerous specs in gw2 pvp history OP, defense including evades and stealth. if you cant simply observe with your eyes all the condi builds and how powerful they are in pvp than i dont know what to tell you

As i have been saying for awhile. Nerf bleeding and burning. Reduce how condi power effects them and nerf how bleeding stacks in intensity and WOW this meta got a lot more balanced

Arganthium couldn’t wait to take another attack at jumper and post his CS vs DA debacle oh lord.

" I might think “Oh! That’s marvelous. I’d love to do 20% additional damage!”"
No I’m thinking going off projected numbers from the game itself (because I am lazy). Once you put in your zerker/soldier/Valkyrie amulet and max out your power from accessories you have 1839 power.
A backstab does 1619 damage. Adding 300 DA will increase it’s damage 13% if I add dagger training than 18%. So realistically off base 300 DA is more or less 13% damage. 1.5x crit modifier + 13%. Can think of it as 163% crit damage instead of CS 1.8×. Only you crit less and that once Executioner is a factor 30 DA loses out to 30 CS in straight passive damage.

Yes above 50% you do more damage on average but players don’t have 60k health pools, on average isn’t practical because we aren’t whacking on pve mobs long enough for things to balance out. A 9k backstab that lands vs a 4-7k is very significant.

After reading all of arganhiums posts i still see no ideas about countering the meta..
Just vague claims that the meta is “Wrong” and that we are all fool.
You know..in all those walls of texts you could have tried to be a bit more productive imho
Ensoriki is right btw..
The way you calcualte damage is not how it works in reality. You wont be hitting a things endlessly for the damage to balance out and get an average.
Precision is not a weak stat aswell. It might not increase AVERAGE damage by a lot but when you are ina pvp situation and you need a firegrab to crit ,and thats difference of 4k or a win or loss you gonna realise how valuable the stat is.
You dont have the luxury to cast firegrab again and again to reach the resultyour math show etc..
Meta is too strong as simple as that

Arganhium means well, and it is good to rely on numbers, but any good engineer will tell you that the value of the numbers you get out of a model is only as good as the assumptions/inputs you use into the model. With gw2, the game is so complex, that theory-crafting and creating numerical models will give vastly different results depending on how you base your assumptions and account for intangibles (for instance, are you factoring in there being protection, weakness, opp. heal-rates, blocks/invulns, etc?).

So, your model might show that one spec is better than another, but the actual results don’t hold up versus reality. This means that there were missed assumptions/intangibles not included in your testing. Either improve your modeling and you will see what everyone else has through observation, or rely on empirical evidence (which is much easier for this kind of thing).

nicknamenick.2437:

Warriors can only apply bleeding and burning and some tormet (only offhand sword) .
We cant spam it.

Remove conditions after you got pin downed + sword + impale maby Riposte (if you do see a warrior blocking with a sword > dont attack ? .. you dont range a thief using dagger strom..
So after you removed it:
pin down 25 sec cooldown
Impale 15 sec cooldown
Riposte 15sec cooldown (dont attack it)

Now your free to lock him down > burst

I dont think this is a warrior problem, if you have a hard time against a condition warrior i would love to see you going down on necro/engies spamming it.

Lets not forget the blind, huge fire aoe, hard hitting bow aoe, and the pin down/flurry combo, all with the mobility of sword 2 if needed, if you dont have removal thats more than enough. plus if i get a chance to actually burst it does squat to their high toughness/armor/health and regens back up in about 5 seconds. The hardest ive hit one of them is for 6-7k with a full gc kill shot, not enough to even make them flinch

You can actually burst necros/engies and they might actually have to get defensive but warriors no, its all offense while barely having to worry about defense at all.

BlackBeard.2873:

Arganhium means well, and it is good to rely on numbers, but any good engineer will tell you that the value of the numbers you get out of a model is only as good as the assumptions/inputs you use into the model. With gw2, the game is so complex, that theory-crafting and creating numerical models will give vastly different results depending on how you base your assumptions and account for intangibles (for instance, are you factoring in there being protection, weakness, opp. heal-rates, blocks/invulns, etc?).

So, your model might show that one spec is better than another, but the actual results don’t hold up versus reality. This means that there were missed assumptions/intangibles not included in your testing. Either improve your modeling and you will see what everyone else has through observation, or rely on empirical evidence (which is much easier for this kind of thing).

Thank you for your understanding.

To describe my models rather briefly: when I created this model, I was looking to see what stats were superior to others. It took me a while to figure out a method by which I could do this, as the DPS equations were seemingly useless to me due to the fact that enemy armor is a variable that I could not control. However, what I did figure out eventually was that it doesn’t matter exactly how much DPS you do to somebody in measuring how powerful different stats are; if you do 2 × 300 damage to somebody with 3000 armor, then you’ll similarly be doing 2 × 400 damage to somebody with 2000 armor. The multipliers remain constant in spite of enemy armor, and that is, in its most basic form, the essence of my calculations. Outside of that, my main assumption is the standard ceteris paribus one, that changing stats is the only variable we’re changing, as that’s the extent to which my models are useful.

As for the other items that you mentioned, they are very much items that I could measure using my models. For example, protection reduces incoming damage by 33%. What other stat reduces incoming damage directly? Toughness, of course. If I multiplied the DPS equations by 2/3 (~33% damage reduction), then I could change the fraction 2/3 to 1/1.5 and thereby simply multiply total defense by 1.5 to give me the resulting damage, and there is of course a place in my equations for that.

Weakness? Even simpler. Before it affected critical hits as well, it would’ve been a bit more difficult for me to calculate, but now that it affects all hits, I can just say that the average damage that I do is equivalent to 1-(Percentage of the time I’m affected by weakness)(.25). I simply multiply the result by my total damage amplification. Of course, that’s the extraordinarily simple version of it, because it could be far more complex, but that’s the general gist of things. Blocks/invulns (especially invulns) can be calculated in a similar way.

Admittedly, enemy healing rates are probably the one thing that my models lack currently, and so I’ve had to rely on empirical evidence to measure the effects of those. I can say, however, that this has been one of the top things on my priority list for me to get done, though. I think that, ultimately, it’ll require me to measure the maximum-efficiency rate of enemy healing and the maximum-efficiency rate of my dealing damage, but those two are extremely… Heavy terms to throw around.

Warrior conditions are not spammable. They are on relatively long cooldowns. Longbow’s bleeds is on a 25 second cooldown. Torment on the offhand sword is a 15 second cooldown. All of the burst skills are a 10 second cooldown. You can already see the huge gaps in between condition application. Avoid these key abilities and it’s smooth sailing.

On the other hand, classes like Necros can literally, literally put a piece of tape on their #1 key, blindfold themselves, and they will apply 4 different conditions until the target is dead. That is spam.

Tellah.8073:

nicknamenick.2437:

Warriors can only apply bleeding and burning and some tormet (only offhand sword) .
We cant spam it.

Remove conditions after you got pin downed + sword + impale maby Riposte (if you do see a warrior blocking with a sword > dont attack ? .. you dont range a thief using dagger strom..
So after you removed it:
pin down 25 sec cooldown
Impale 15 sec cooldown
Riposte 15sec cooldown (dont attack it)

Now your free to lock him down > burst

I dont think this is a warrior problem, if you have a hard time against a condition warrior i would love to see you going down on necro/engies spamming it.

Lets not forget the blind, huge fire aoe, hard hitting bow aoe, and the pin down/flurry combo, all with the mobility of sword 2 if needed, if you dont have removal thats more than enough. plus if i get a chance to actually burst it does squat to their high toughness/armor/health and regens back up in about 5 seconds. The hardest ive hit one of them is for 6-7k with a full gc kill shot, not enough to even make them flinch

You can actually burst necros/engies and they might actually have to get defensive but warriors no, its all offense while barely having to worry about defense at all.

You’re just blatantly lying at this point.

Warriors have more defense than Engies? Than Necros with Plague Form up? Lol, get out.

i think i heard about condition duration decrease build. if you dont want to build against conditions, it doesnt mean they should be nerfed…

Oh AND THE BLINDZZZZ!!!!….

I Find very funny how people are complaining about this when you have a class than can perma blind anyone… yes the THIEF and their SPAM cheese mechanics…

But hey lets nerf the warrior, they are suppoused to suck right?

Arganthium.5638:

Fenrir.5493:

Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.

Give one screenshot or a piece of official information that clearly states this:

“VITALITY REDUCES CONDITION DAMAGE”

If you can not do that then please stop spreading your BS propaganda.

Vitality doesn’t reduce condition damage. It is still a soft counter to it, as it increases the time to kill. It also works against power damage, so the effectiveness is somewhat split. Additionally, before taking healing into account, equal amounts of vitality and toughness add equal amounts of EHP.
And, again, the point of conditions is to offer a sustained, steady damage source that, once it lands, bypasses all defenses.

shimmerless.4560:

The Boz.2038:

Daecollo.9578:

Exedore.6320:

Allowing conditions to crit fixes anything how? Most conditions builds are running Rabid amulet already, so they have a decently high crit chance. It just further hurts hybrids or power builds that pick up a little extra damage from conditions.

It would be also reduced by toughness/protection.

…so the entire POINT of condition damage (steady, reliable damage that bypasses passive defenses) would be entirely lost?
Why would anyone choose to do damage slowly if they can do it fast?

Maybe there shouldn’t be “steady, reliable damage that bypasses defenses” in a competitive game at all since it encourages lazy, inattentive gameplay.

I am still unconvinced of that. And saying condition damage is lazy, inattentive gameplay reeks of lack of skill.

The Boz.2038:

I am still unconvinced of that. And saying condition damage is lazy, inattentive gameplay reeks of lack of skill.

Claiming that it’s is lazy or inattentive is perhaps an exaggeration. Spike damage is just easier to counter due to it’s predictability.
I’ve been hit for an insane amount of burning and bleeding damage even though I’m running with an anti-condition spec. I’ve also been hit by some serious backstabs and eviscerates, but that’s mostly because I lost focus and didn’t counter it properly.

Skilled players can keep conditions on me even though I dodge and block the most dangerous attacks. I can pop stamina signet and beserker stance when I’m all decked out in conditions, but it only takes a few seconds untill they are suddenly up and running on me again.

Even with Hoelbreak runes and high health regen, they still tear do a very noticable amount of damage and good rangers just tear right through me with that burning+poison combination.

You should keep in mind that a necro’s standard autoattack bleed, in a condition spec, hits as hard as a warrior’s longbow autoattack in a power spec (power only, without precision or critical damage).
The advantages are that it ignores all boons and static defenses, and not being a projectile attack with a trajectory.
The drawbacks are doing the damage over a short period of time (5-6s are the most common numbers) and being cleanseable.
I still fail to see the inherent overpoweredness of conditions in general.

Fenrir.5493:

Arganthium.5638:

Fenrir.5493:

Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.

Give one screenshot or a piece of official information that clearly states this:

“VITALITY REDUCES CONDITION DAMAGE”

If you can not do that then please stop spreading your BS propaganda.

Damage is really just a relative amount. 2k damage means a lot more if you only have 12k health than it means to somebody that has 30k health.

Now, the only reason why you say that toughness “reduces” direct damage done to you is because you don’t understand the nature of damage. If you had 2000 armor and took 300 damage, and then upped it to 3000 armor and took 200 damage, you might think “oh look, I reduced the damage dealt to me”. But this is no different from a person with 20,000 health taking 1000 vitality to get 30,000 health, except in that the latter situation results in a decrease in heal effectiveness. In both situations, you reduced the damage by 2/3 relative to your health, but the difference is that you don’t think that vitality reduced damage to you because you’re stuck in this very narrow world of thought that states “if I don’t see a number go down, it can’t be that damage is decreasing”. What does it matter if the numbers don’t decrease? You can’t just look at two damage values, 200 and 300, and suddenly determine that it’s better to have the former amount of damage done to you, because you don’t know how much your health is in either situation. If you had 500,000 health, would you really take any toughness whatsoever? Would you really be concerned about conditions that deal 100 damage per second to you? Of course not (or if you did, I’d be sincerely concerned about your mental health).

The fact of the matter is that vitality reduces direct damage just as much as toughness does (actually, at least at the start of build creation, by more than does toughness), but when it comes to conditions all that really matters is vitality, as toughness has no effect on condition damage done relative to your health anyways.

That you can’t see through this incredibly simple concept is just… Mind-blowing, really. It takes a supreme level of ignorance to try and leave out this important concept from your mind.

No, they aren’t.

Fenrir.5493:

Fenrir.5493:

People who complain about Conditions have no idea how patethic they look.

Now with that clear i will explain to you why this is not a warrior problem.

Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.

Condition damage is so easy to achieve because you only need one stat, and that is Condition damage, while power damage requires Power, Crit chance and Crit damage.

So you can wear a shamans amulet and have all you need to do great condi damage, have healing power and amazing toughness, the result is a tank that can do amazing condition damage.

This is a serious problem right now with the game ite clearly unbalanced towards condition damage because of this, but this is not a warrior problem its a general problem.

there I fixed that for you…

as for condition cleanses and runes of melandru, well you should look into that.

ensoriki.5789:

Nuka Cola.8520:

one thing i don’t get is why on earth warrior’s bleeding last soooooo kitten long compared to any other class? like wtf, i want 20sec+ of bleeds on my mesmer and ranger as well

Because originally War only put out bleeding and burning. You have to make up for lack of condition variety somewhere (though it didn’t work).

What about a thief for example? They also don’t have access to many condis and their bleeding last less than twice the amount of time. What about guardians that have absolutely nothing? Mesmers don’t have access to much damaging condis and since confusion nerf its even worst. Makes no sense if you ask me. Like if warrior condis lasted 10-12sec (which is higher for most standards) that’s okay but what’s up with 20sec+? With such long lasting condis you can just spam Pin Down/burning and kite the person if you know she/he has meh condi removal.

Stop your whining condition warriors are weak and do next to no damage. Maybe in your 1v1 environment or without ANY team support you may eventually die to one. This is a complete L2P issue.

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

i think i heard about condition duration decrease build. if you dont want to build against conditions, it doesnt mean they should be nerfed…

so everyone has to spec and gear for condi removal (sacrificing offense and good specs) in order to not be utterly wasted by condi specs who can go full burst.

whats the point of even pvp’ing if your only option is fotm faceroll ezmode or counter fotm faceroll ezmode

JinDaVikk.7291:

Stop your whining condition warriors are weak and do next to no damage. Maybe in your 1v1 environment or without ANY team support you may eventually die to one. This is a complete L2P issue.

yes i guess im just having hallucinations when i see them pancaking anyone that isnt completely specced for removal. i guess them topping the scoreboards, running with full 25 sigil buff the whole game and laughing at (ive literally seen this) any damage from anyone who isnt all out glass cannon/condi burst, well im just whining and need to l2p

ive got hit with a pin down and combustive shot at full health without removal and got away only to die because they last sooo dang long. thats it! 2 buttons and im done
thats just stupid