Guild Wars 2

While I don’t find the Rampage nerf to be a bad thing, it’s likely to be the straw that breaks the camel’s back in terms of PvP/WvW viability.

There’s several things holding us back, but one thing has been standing out more than others:

Fast Hands

There are several potentially strong builds, but they never end up working out because so many cross weapon combos rely on that short weapon swap CD.

There’s also the issue of the Defense Spec being almost required as well, but building a Warrior without the Discipline line is almost unheard of (there were a couple of good condi-shout builds that went Arms-Defense-Tactics a while ago).

If we want to avoid dropping to bottom tier (we might already be there now), we need to unite and once again push for a baseline Fast Hands. If Mesmer can get a GM trait like Illusionary Persona made baseline because the class needed it to function, why can’t we get Fast Hands?

The only real issue I foresee is if the Warrior Elite Spec (supposedly Berserker) would somehow be too strong with FH being baseline. That being said, I have a feeling that the Spec would need FH to work properly anyways.

Longbow can now proc berserker’s might. This is more useful to me than Rampage.

Marthkus.4615:

Longbow can now proc berserker’s might. This is more useful to me than Rampage.

Yes, but will that make us suddenly better than Guardian? Not even close. You know things are bad when Guardian has more wiggle room for builds than Warrior.

Well, I’m on record ad nauseum in support of making FH baseline. There’s just no reason not to do it and lots of reasons to go for it.

With respect to an OP combo with whatever comes out of the Berserker line, it should be trivial to adjust that one line to fix whatever problem exists. There’s currently no issue for the existing five lines that I can see.

One of the great things mesmers have going now is trait synergy (not perfect, but very good) with no real mandatory lines. I’d love to see the same thing for every class.

I’ve always supported Fast Hands being baseline. It’s simply too important to ANY current Warrior build to be anything but a blackhole trait line.

I’ve always noticed this as well: Warrior success hinges more on their weapon skills more than their utility skills. This causes Warriors to need to swap more often.

Utility skills are basically all pure defensive and response skills that allow us to use our Weapon skills more effectively. Basically, Warriors run the three hard-stances, (endure, balanced, zerker), a SIO or FGJ, and occasionally someone breaks out a bullscharge for the lulz.

Check out http://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki and notice how every single warrior build brings disc except for the Dungeon Phalanax strength build, where you just camp GS and stack might against immobile mobs who stand there for you.

Also notice how most builds take 2, if not all 3 hard stances.

These problems, the requirement of Fast hands, goes deep, down, to the root of the Warriors problems as a class. The only way that Fast Hands could NOT be mandatory would be some huge rework of the Warrior Class that frees the class from having to spam swap.

Mobility is tied exclusively to Sword/Wh and GS. If you’re not on those, you’re getting kited. Fast hands is need to allow quick swaps to avoid being kited to death. Guardians have a similar issue here, but they at least get Judges Intervention to help gap close now and then.

Warriors have a serious issue autoattacking player foes. AA is hard to land consistently, and does relatively poor damage overall even when it does. Without being able to swap weapon sets often when their current set is on CD, Warriors would be stuck spending too much time AAing and not enough time using weapon skills.

Since utility skills are bound up to the stances and occasional shout, all combos (not field combos, I mean like effective chaining of different skills) must come from cross-weapon set interaction, which, of course, requires you to have swap available more often than every 10 seconds. Imagine trying to do a Skullcrack100b build without Fast Hands? If you just had to switch to on greatsword, that means you’re 20 seconds away from your gimmick.

TL;DR: Fast Hands baseline, or entire class overhaul.

I agree completely – I’m all for making FH baseline.

It’d make Warriors both more fun and more effective, and I don’t think that’d be a bad thing.

In agreement for many reasons:

- Thematically, we are a master of martial weapons. You could say this is covered by our capability of being able to use the most weapons of any profession (right now) but having the proficiency to use many weapons is just one half, to be able to swap and weave them majestically in combat should be its counterpart.

- Balancing the Warrior becomes easier. A single trait on a functional mechanical level altering the playstyle of a profession is something NO one else has, to a degree Discipline can be considered an Elite Specialization as Weapon Swap on a vastly reduced cooldown does impact how every build around it plays. Certainly, Grandmasters define the build, but when a Minor Trait defines the Warrior, it’s not really minor is it?

Necro main says hi.

I second this. Also, we’re getting our reduced banner cooldowns re-implemented, right? Right?

GreyerSkies.6287:

I second this. Also, we’re getting our reduced banner cooldowns re-implemented, right? Right?

I read this on the forums as well, never seen a quote from a dev though.

I discussed this with a friend of mine on TS for quite a while.

The actual mechanic of the Warrior is Adrenaline – supposedly making you stronger the longer the fight goes on, launching heavy hitting attacks as a finisher. In reality, the class mechanic is just another attack with an upkeep mechanic.

Making Fast Hands baseline, Warriors would at least be capable of distinguishing themselves a lot better amongst other professions. It is the arms profession, capable of swift (melee) combat, without any magical enhancements.

I am all up for it; so far, it has been the bread and butter of every Warrior.

Banners are to strong to get cd reduced. So stronk.
We wont get besline fast hands. As much I want it I think we wont get it. We had out chance with specialization patch and we didnt deserve it it seems.
We deserved warhorn nerf becasue its not on par with warrior theme.
We get powerful synergy becasue is so on par with warrior theme. (And it totaly deserves to be grandmaster….)

+ 1 for base line fast hands

Would love to see it aswell.One question for you guys,do you think Signet Mastery is in the right spot? Do you ever trait for or make good use of Restorative strength ?

Why i’m asking is,i feel like Signet Mastery being moved to strength would make more sense imo..Restorative stength,for all i care could get removed entirely for something useful.

Yep, Fast Hands should be baseline. I honestly can’t see how that can be OP. Sure, it’s strong, but it’s needed. The Discipline line remains strong even without it, but I can at least start thinking about dropping it for something else if it didn’t have Fast Hands.

Plus it fits thematically.

I’d love to see fast hands baseline. I rarely go into the disc line for anything else apart from fh, it is basically required. However if they make it baseline and then nerf our weapon skills to “compensate” I’ll be kittened off more.

Make it baseline and that’s it or just leave it alone.

Yeah FH is essential to most Warrior builds but whats if A.NET let in in Discipline Specialization?

I mean, not having to pick Discipline solely for FH would give us more “room” for builds but I believe that A.Net wants to prevented it fearing that Warrior will be more of a multi-tool then.

I too believe that FH is essential for warrior builds but I do believe that Warrior’s problems may start there but doesn’t end there.

And not wanting to go off topic, I ‘ll mention something that is closely together with FH. Our (warrior’s) power is supposed to be the weapon variety. Yet at least 1/3 of our weapon choices are sub-par thus hampering our viable build variety. Mentioning :

1) Rifle – lots of issues mostly its too easily dodged
2) Axe (off-hand) – #5 low dmg
3) Sword (off-hand) – #4 not that great
4) Sword (main-hand) – mostly used for its mobility, not its damage
5) Warhorn – would like to see more utility when traited (like apply might on use)

Warrior post patch saw nerfs without reason. Now the profession is pigeon-holed to few specific builds and weapon choices (most GS+something or Hammer+something) and we are craving that A.Net will show us a fraction of “love” given to other proffs by making FH a baseline trait. Still this won’t fix the current warrior state!

I don’t know, I still enjoy playing Warrior in pvp. My build is all knockdowns, and really the only reason I run rampage for the additional kd. The only classes that still infuriate me are Mes and Engi. (Some Necros)

Just think anet wants war to stay in the middle of the pack.

Caedmon.6798:

One question for you guys,do you think Signet Mastery is in the right spot? Do you ever trait for or make good use of Restorative strength ?

Imo, the only reason to think it’s in the “wrong” place is that it gets way less use than it otherwise would because FH is pulling us into Discipline for every viable build.

Signet Mastery’s about the only thing that tempts me into the Arms line (and I don’t currently run Arms). Considering even optimal condi builds don’t typically run Arms, it’d feel like raiding the line for it’s only treasure and then leaving it in the dust.

If FH was made baseline, though, I bet Arms would see way more use, though. For condi and direct damage builds.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

I don’t know, I still enjoy playing Warrior in pvp. My build is all knockdowns, and really the only reason I run rampage for the additional kd. The only classes that still infuriate me are Mes and Engi. (Some Necros)

Just think anet wants war to stay in the middle of the pack.

The thing about this proposal, though, is it wouldn’t represent much in the way of a power increase for warriors, it’d just allow us greater flexibility when creating our builds, possibly allowing us to find more roles to fit into.

In a perfect world, all classes would be in the general vicinity of each other so the difference between being in the top or bottom of the pack wouldn’t matter so much.

Did Warrior’s not get anything baseline with the new traits?

phokus.8934:

Did Warrior’s not get anything baseline with the new traits?

As far as I know, no.

On another note, let’s not forget how abysmal many of our minors are as well.

Brust cooldown reduced by basline I think form 10s to 8s.

Opynn.2936:

Brust cooldown reduced by basline I think form 10s to 8s.

I forgot about that. Honestly you hardly notice because you’re forced into Discipline anyways.

I made a PvP post here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Warriors-Need-Baseline-Fast-Hands/first#post5331325

+1, would like to see FH baseline and banner recharge too (or at least added to inspiring battle standards)

So, I tried to make a gw2 subreddit post and was immediately hate brigaded to the point where I just deleted it. The language from here was almost identical. Unsurprisingly, all of their flair of the commenters were non-warrior.

I need to learn that that subreddit isn’t the place to discuss class balance, or really anything “serious.”

Did the arguments against tend to fall along the lines of “warriors are already OP”, “that would be an enormous power creep”, “why shouldn’t my class get it too”?

It’s incredible how many people forget that every warrior they’ve come across in the last couple of years has had FH, and it’s not as though the Discipline line is a wasteland otherwise.

Choppy.4183:

Did the arguments against tend to fall along the lines of “warriors are already OP”, “that would be an enormous power creep”, “why shouldn’t my class get it too”?

It’s incredible how many people forget that every warrior they’ve come across in the last couple of years has had FH, and it’s not as though the Discipline line is a wasteland otherwise.

“Just come up with a build without discipline. I play thief and Trickery was also ‘mandatory’, along with deadly arts for damage. Now I just ditched trickery, got Shadow Arts and Critical strikes with Deadly Arts and I’m having a blast!”

“Baseline? Warriors would be able to weapon swap more often than anyone else? Why?”

“You can’t compare iPersona to Fast Hands. Shatters are the mesmer’s unique ability, but weapon swapping is not the warrior’s unique ability. Adrenaline and Burst skills are.”

I asked several of them to produce a Warrior build that was good and didn’t use the Discipline line. None responded.

I’m sure we would have gotten to the “War OP” zone eventually. I forget that the majority of that sub is PvE players.

And don’t forget the various nerfs with no real reason!!!

Like various Arms specialization traits got nerfed for no reason. Mentioning :

1) Bleed duration train from +50% → +33%
2) Damage to bleeding foes +10% → +5%
3) Dual Wield dmg buff turned from +5% dmg to +5% attack speed (resulting Dual Wield from +10% IAS to +15% IAS)

Why is that… I dont know!

BurrTheKing.8571:

I forget that the majority of that sub is PvE players.

I can actually sympathize with pve players who’d react against anything appearing to be a buff to warriors. Not because they’re right (they aren’t), but because at least one warrior is almost always guaranteed a place in a dungeon group whereas others will get booted.

Nobody likes it when someone who has an advantage asks for more.

That a baseline FH probably wouldn’t affect the warrior dungeon build at all (might on swap still synergizes with PS) likely hasn’t occurred to them.

Choppy.4183:

BurrTheKing.8571:

I forget that the majority of that sub is PvE players.

I can actually sympathize with pve players who’d react against anything appearing to be a buff to warriors. Not because they’re right (they aren’t), but because at least one warrior is almost always guaranteed a place in a dungeon group whereas others will get booted.

Nobody likes it when someone who has an advantage asks for more.

That a baseline FH probably wouldn’t affect the warrior dungeon build at all (might on swap still synergizes with PS) likely hasn’t occurred to them.

Yah, I kinda get that, although I did specifically mention PvP/WvW in my post.

The annoying part was the “half truthfulness” of some of the responses. Yes, Shatters are a Mesmer’s class mechanic, but getting the affect on yourself by default wasn’t. They also seem to not realize that unlike other classes with 10 second weapon swaps, Warrior AA’s tend to be really lackluster because you’re not supposed to be camping one weapon. A lot of the attacks also tend to be based around cross weapon combos while Guards have an obvious combo that is self contained on that weapon.

As a Warrior main the need seems obvious. Also, I really don’t see Wars suddenly becoming Gods just because they have a faster weapon swap.

Especially because warriors wouldn’t have a faster weapon swap… it would stay exactly the same that it is now. Making FH baseline would do exactly nothing to the weapon swap speed that every warrior already has

+1 to this. FH is in all Warriors build/life. It really isn’t in PS Warrior only because you pretty much only need GS, and even then, pre patch all PS Warriors carried it too.

It would not make us OP in any way, unless the minor trait that would replace it would be OP, but I doubt it.

Myabe Berserker gets it baseline, otherwise, Discipline line will be there too

Base line Fast Hands is not enough for WvW. To me CC Defense is top priority.

If Fast Hands gave stacks of stability (more than 1), breaks stun, including immobilization whenever we change weapons, then ill be for it. I mean c’mon the symbol for immobilization is a chain and what is the symbol for break stun? A broken chain. Ya anet can still give us the finger and change the symbols.

Disagree with you pretty strongly there. Afaik, we have some of the best personal cc defense in the game.

In fact, I almost have to think you’re joking about immob given just about every warrior can break it with a movement skill, a weapon swap, and/or has duration cut significantly. Plus, stun breaks don’t work on immob….

Okamikazi.8652:

Base line Fast Hands is not enough for WvW. To me CC Defense is top priority.

If Fast Hands gave stacks of stability (more than 1), breaks stun, including immobilization whenever we change weapons, then ill be for it. I mean c’mon the symbol for immobilization is a chain and what is the symbol for break stun? A broken chain. Ya anet can still give us the finger and change the symbols.

We already have great Stability Access. Heck, if you wanted you could go Balanced Stance, Dolyak Signet, and Last Stand, bring Rampage along too. You could still even bring double Endure Pain, because in WvW you can bring food to reduce condi duration and stack it with runes.

EDIT: Here, you should never have to worry about CC again.

You could even go tactics for even more anti-condi and anti CC!

I have been maining a warrior since GW2 came out and I would absolutely love to see fast hands finally become baseline. I have not seen a new build suggested recently that doesn’t have discipline and if I could get my hands on a nice Arms/Strength/Defense build that wouldn’t have me kitten for my weapon swaps I would be sooooooo happy.

TL DR: +1 fast hands baseline

Yep, absolutely agree.

I would also like to make a SUGGESTED REPLACEMENT when Fast Hands (5 sec weapon recharge) becomes baseline.

The new trait will be still called “Fast Hands” but will reduce the next weapon skill used recharge by 33%.

Tzozef.9841:

Yep, absolutely agree.

I would also like to make a SUGGESTED REPLACEMENT when Fast Hands (5 sec weapon recharge) becomes baseline.

The new trait will be still called “Fast Hands” but will reduce the next weapon skill used recharge by 33%.

33% might be a bit high, but I like the concept. Maybe start with something like 10-15% and see how that works. Would have to be next “non burst” attack as well.

Choppy.4183:

Disagree with you pretty strongly there. Afaik, we have some of the best personal cc defense in the game.

In fact, I almost have to think you’re joking about immob given just about every warrior can break it with a movement skill, a weapon swap, and/or has duration cut significantly. Plus, stun breaks don’t work on immob….

Alright so despite all of those things that you mentioned I have tried and every time i still get locked up in CC and by the time I actually get to land a hit the commander calls retreat. Why? because my server is constantly outnumbered and double teamed every week. I get to do NOTHING!!!!!. This why warriors are in a bad state, because the community still thinks everything is all “hunky dory” and so anet does little, nothing, hell even nerfing us still when we are already in a bad state.

So go ahead keep asking for very little and in the end you’ll get less than what you ask for. Thats how these movements end up. Im done discussing this. If things arnt good enough but the time HOTS releases. Im not buying.

Sounds frustrating. If you’re getting locked down by hard cc (stuns, knockdowns, dazes), make sure you have balanced stance at least and try to get a guardian in your party for group stability. It should probably be enough, but you can add more stability or stun breaks if you need them from there.

If it’s immobilize that’s catching you, you should probably have brawlers recovery, warriors sprint, dogged March, condi food, and (if in a big group) traited warhorn. If you get immobilized, use a movement skill or swap weapons. If you and your party are caught, use wh4. Otherwise, it’ll be brief anyway. Then there’s shouts with trooper runes too, I suppose.

Good luck!

Choppy.4183:

Caedmon.6798:

One question for you guys,do you think Signet Mastery is in the right spot? Do you ever trait for or make good use of Restorative strength ?

Imo, the only reason to think it’s in the “wrong” place is that it gets way less use than it otherwise would because FH is pulling us into Discipline for every viable build.

Signet Mastery’s about the only thing that tempts me into the Arms line (and I don’t currently run Arms). Considering even optimal condi builds don’t typically run Arms, it’d feel like raiding the line for it’s only treasure and then leaving it in the dust.

If FH was made baseline, though, I bet Arms would see way more use, though. For condi and direct damage builds.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

I don’t know, I still enjoy playing Warrior in pvp. My build is all knockdowns, and really the only reason I run rampage for the additional kd. The only classes that still infuriate me are Mes and Engi. (Some Necros)

Just think anet wants war to stay in the middle of the pack.

The thing about this proposal, though, is it wouldn’t represent much in the way of a power increase for warriors, it’d just allow us greater flexibility when creating our builds, possibly allowing us to find more roles to fit into.

In a perfect world, all classes would be in the general vicinity of each other so the difference between being in the top or bottom of the pack wouldn’t matter so much.

Exactly,but the trait is so kitten useful for power builds and you usually go into arms when you run condi where blocking doesnt matter when condi’s have been applied and are ticking and the 6 sec of unblockable can be pretty pointless in that situation.Now when you would run a power build Gs/hamm or w/e where Signet mast would be placed into strength,wouldn’t that make more sense for unblockable to activate at 50%hp since you’re not relying on condi’s anyway ?

You can actually make a perfectly viable power build using arms, with the gm trait only being so-so. It’s just not optimal.

Even for condi builds though, Arms is sub-optimal due to FH. Release the beast and Arms will see more use from both condi and power specs (and hybrid, of course).

But, yeah, I wouldn’t cry if SM became a strength adept trait. I’d run a lot of valk or carrion gear too, depending on my weapon comp. It’d be a significant power increase though, imo.

Choppy.4183:

You can actually make a perfectly viable power build using arms, with the gm trait only being so-so. It’s just not optimal. Its be a significant power increase too, imo.

Even for condi builds though, Arms is sub-optimal due to FH. Release the beast and Arms will see more use from both condi and power specs (and hybrid, of course).

But, yeah, I wouldn’t cry if SM became a strength adept trait. I’d run a lot of valk or carrion gear too, depending on my weapon comp.

Yeah ive been thinking about it since the first day they released the patch actually,it’s so much more suitable in strength imo.Also what do you think of restorative strength in general ?

It could be ok if mending was better. The might is too short to be useful to TTL and using the HS active is too situational and infrequent to justify taking the trait

Choppy.4183:

It could be ok if mending was better. The might is too short to be useful to TTL and using the HS active is too situational and infrequent to justify taking the trait

Removal of Restor strength,Sign mastery placed in strength tier 1 making room for a new trait in arms ?

There is not a single valid point that can contest the fact that warriors need FH baseline.
The rune synergie is already in use because FH is already mandatory for all builds. Nothing would change in that department.

In fact by not going int the last line, warriors would lose adrenaline on weapon swap / clear 1 condition on weapon swap / lose 2might on weapon swap / warrior sprint and quikness against -50% targets. Warriors would loose too much.
Making FH baseline would be completely balanced.

I definitely agree with FH to be baseline. Warrior is weapon master so it makes a sense. If only anet would listen and at least consider it…

Just name me one build that couldn’t be better dropping for something for FH (PS dungeon build being the exeption that proves the rule)

CTFT.2740:

Just name me one build that couldn’t be better dropping for something for FH (PS dungeon build being the exeption that proves the rule)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNBMhNaknDa9wKPwzDoDxwUghPuIQB4GgBgRWODCbtAA-TpRFwAYLDA4EA04BAgb/hEHCAEHBAA

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQJASTj8cQrHW5BeeAdIGKCMc11CCB2AoDGAydQfLJA-TpxHABBcBAE4BAMwRAQl9HsuMAAHCAA

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNApeRjMdQXIWFCmhApIGICM8E8CGBWAICMAuQYDY5B-TpBFABiXGohTAQN7P02DAYhDBAAHBAA

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAS8cjMdQXIW4BOeAnIGICMs19CGBWA4D2zuywHIoB-TpRFwAt3fAwRAIxFAQxBBAxDAwaZAA

(That last one is kinda a fun build concept)