Guild Wars 2

I’ve noticed more and more warriors even with high ap in high level fractals and such don’t bring Empowered Allies. Everytime I join a group I make sure that it’s covered, but I seem to be the only one who even cares. I’ll ask if any warrior is running EA and I’m either met with silence or “nah”

I feel the sacrifice in dps to trait this for support to my party and team is positive. It increases our overall damage output over 1 warrior going max dps. Isn’t it vital that we still value our contribution to the party?

So anyway I just keep EA on my build right now since most warriors I meet don’t like to use it.

i always run EA and attribute the lack of response to inability to actually read what i’m saying

It frustrates me when I casually ask “Hey so is any warrior running ea?” Before we start and I’m met with “…”

Like I just asked a noob question. Obv no we all go dps right? Right

it really doesnt make that much of a difference

I have been running PS build of late and I like it, so I always have EA with me and always announce it at the start of the run. Makes for a good addition to the party and bolsters the DPS of an otherwise meh pug group.

What bothers me is the lack of banners. Is not unusual that Im forced to carry both.

OP, I m starting to think that pug dont know what EA means…

This is the way of the pug.

maha.7902:

it really doesnt make that much of a difference

This is pretty much true. EA is around a 2,000 dps increase for the full party. A DPS warrior is about 1,500 dps better than an EA warrior. 500 dps is either as significant or as trivial as you value it, though I would suggest in an average pug where people aren’t using good food and potions its pretty trivial.

I’d never under any condition bring EA in a pug team lmao.

Pretty much never going to convince me to go into the tactics trait line unless I’m going for like, a record speedclear with rT. I remember not too long ago someone asked me in swamp for a level 18 fotm pug if I had EA and I said “nah” so I wonder if you’re referring to me?

If youre running 2 warriors in a group having a PS build that has EA is gonna be more beneficial to the rest of the team than running 2 pure dps based builds. Especially if you are running with out an ele for might stacks. If youre running 1 warrior just bring a banner or 2 and run a pure dps build.

If you have an ele who knows how to might stack correctly running a PS warrior is kind of a wasted slot. Warrior support pretty much is banners and the PS build.

EA is nice, but its not a big deal if someone in a pug don’t have it. I mean, a lot of pugs don’t have potion, food and the amount of fury, might and vulnerability is usually limited so … If someone have it that’s great. If me or someone in my guild have a warrior, then i’ll make sure to have EA, but I won’t ask that to a pug. I try to ask nothing from pugs. Sometime i break my own rule with WoR or Banners, but still I try to ask as little as possible from pug, unless I specified something in LFG.

Tree.3916:

maha.7902:

it really doesnt make that much of a difference

This is pretty much true. EA is around a 2,000 dps increase for the full party. A DPS warrior is about 1,500 dps better than an EA warrior. 500 dps is either as significant or as trivial as you value it, though I would suggest in an average pug where people aren’t using good food and potions its pretty trivial.

I assume that 2,000 dps increase happens only with good builds. But with a bad party your own dps loss gets reduced a bit too (less Might / Vulnerability from party).

Without any calculations I would say that with crappy teammates EA will be a dps loss.

Wethospu.6437:

Tree.3916:

maha.7902:

it really doesnt make that much of a difference

This is pretty much true. EA is around a 2,000 dps increase for the full party. A DPS warrior is about 1,500 dps better than an EA warrior. 500 dps is either as significant or as trivial as you value it, though I would suggest in an average pug where people aren’t using good food and potions its pretty trivial.

I assume that 2,000 dps increase happens only with good builds. But with a bad party your own dps loss gets reduced a bit too (less Might / Vulnerability from party).

Without any calculations I would say that with crappy teammates EA will be a dps loss.

Probably so. Warrior self buff is strong enough that the 1500 or so dps you lose from DPS → is pretty consistent across all groups. But the DPS your party gains from EA is variable based on everyone elses’ quality so whether or not EA is worth it is hard to gauge. For a dungeon record run or boss speed kill every variable is controlled so you can make that call easily, but for a pug there is no way and you are probably best not doing it.

One last consideration: a 6/5/0/0/3 warrior generates an average of about 6 Vuln permanently maintained. A 6/4/0/4/0 GS EA warrior generates about 2 vuln. Lets say by some chicanery your EA buffs the group total DPS by 4%. But then your team only maintains 21 Vuln stacks. Now you’re broken even and EA essentially did nothing for you. In a group where you FGS every boss Weak Spot will ensure 25 vuln stacks, but in other situations maximizing vuln is crucially important and vuln generation is a consideration well above EA.

What are dungeons?

Everyone one knows warrior is like 20x more DPS than all other classes combined, taking any personal DPS hit to buff those other losers would be dumb.

EA doesn’t bring that big difference,some people think.
In PuG-groups for example, I don’t run EA anyway because I can’t be sure that the people I’m running with will benefit sufficiently.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Everyone one knows warrior is like 20x more DPS than all other classes combined, taking any personal DPS hit to buff those other losers would be dumb.

TBH, the only EA build I would advocate at this point is pure axe EA, since it actually generates great vuln AND provides EA. Using a GS build for EA is robbing peter to pay paul.

Purple Miku.7032:

I’d never under any condition bring EA in a pug team lmao.

Pretty much never going to convince me to go into the tactics trait line unless I’m going for like, a record speedclear with rT. I remember not too long ago someone asked me in swamp for a level 18 fotm pug if I had EA and I said “nah” so I wonder if you’re referring to me?

No it was a lvl 49 fractal.

But still I mean, i know it’s a pug and all and shouldn’t expect much. But I still try to at least contribute. The banner thing is another pet peeve of mine. Too often I ping ban of disc and at the next boss I’ll see 2 of em.

Are you insinuating that a warrior isn’t trying to contribute if they aren’t using EA?

i think he’s insinuating that warriors who can’t be kittened to spend 5 seconds telling someone what they’re running are not interested in contributing to the party as a whole

Sera.6250:

i think he’s insinuating that warriors who can’t be kittened to spend 5 seconds telling someone what they’re running are not interested in contributing to the party as a whole

Bingo

EA is about an 8% DPS increase for the party as a whole assuming everyone is rolling a zerk build.
Given how warrior is, under optimal circumstances and running it’s best personal DPS build, the 4th best DPS in the game I’d say it’s worth the slight loss in personal DPS if you’re grouped with competent players be it a PUG or not.
Just make sure there is only 1 warrior in the group with the trait as it doesn’t stack.

And even if one was to go for all-out personal DPS as a warrior, I’d recommend 6/6/0/2/0 instead of the 6/5/0/0/3 solo-play build as long as you don’t really need to a have block on switch or you’re in a half organized group you’ll have no need for Signet Mastery and Empowered is a 3 to 8% boost to your personal DPS depending on how many boons your group can generate.

For an EA build try 4/6/0/4/0, you’ll lose 5% personal DPS compared to 6/4/0/4/0 but you’ll be able to contribute vulnerability stacks which will more than likely be over 5 at all times giving you those 5% damage back and increasing your group’s overall DPS.
(And you can always use Arcing Slice without worrying about losing the Berserker’s Power bonus trolololol)

EA isn’t as worthwhile as you seem to make it out to be. In optimal conditions, meaning consistent and perpetual 25 might and fury with both banners etc., it’s barely better DPS for a party of 5 overall than it is for the warrior to be 6/6/0/0/2 or 6/5/0/0/3.

Even if your party is all perfect, the difference is literally less than a thousand DPS.

Not sure what kind of people you get in your PUGs, but I sure as hell am not going to assume the ones I typically get to be flawless performers. I can barely get anybody that knows how to read, lol.

Veckna.9621:

EA is about an 8% DPS increase for the party as a whole assuming everyone is rolling a zerk build.

It’s closer to a 4% boost.

Tree.3916:

Veckna.9621:

EA is about an 8% DPS increase for the party as a whole assuming everyone is rolling a zerk build.

It’s closer to a 4% boost.

Assuming the average power of a zerk build to be about 2500, considering some builds do not go all the way into their power tree, EA is an exact 6% increase in power for the average used.
150*100/2500 = 6

This of course is subject to several circumstances and the bonus is less noticeable as your power increases via might or bloodlust stacking.
Still worth taking over a personal DPS increase in my opinion.

That’s is 6% ’’power’’ increase, which is about 3-4% ’’damage’’ or ’’dps’’ increase.

It is worth taking in most situation, but not that much. So both option are good. You can be a full dps warrior or a EA warrior, you will bring about as much to your party. You are not more and less selfish by using any of those two build.

Do you guys realize that 4% boost, 6% boost or whatever doesn’t actually mean anything?

10% boost to build A is different than 10% boost to build B. It’s like comparing apples and oranges.

It is more damage for everyone (including you) and doesn’t significantly hurt your own DPS. Your pug has to have really crap DPS to not break even from EA. Keep in mind that most DPS “comparison” calcs are using perfect GS rotations whereas EA DPS uses the much more consistent axe rotation.

Veckna.9621:

Tree.3916:

Veckna.9621:

EA is about an 8% DPS increase for the party as a whole assuming everyone is rolling a zerk build.

It’s closer to a 4% boost.

Assuming the average power of a zerk build to be about 2500, considering some builds do not go all the way into their power tree, EA is an exact 6% increase in power for the average used.
150*100/2500 = 6

This of course is subject to several circumstances and the bonus is less noticeable as your power increases via might or bloodlust stacking.
Still worth taking over a personal DPS increase in my opinion.

You don’t have any Might on you ever in dungeons? I think that would change your math a bit.

Let’s look at real DPS numbers for a typical party comp (assuming 25 vuln)

Staff Ele 13381
S/F Ele 12087
Thief 14410
Guard 9911
DPS War 12214

total: 62003

Now with EA

Staff 13942
SF 12562
Thief 14958
Guard 10323
EA War 10558

Total: 62,342

Congrats on managing to generate an additional 0.5% DPS.

Wethospu.6437:

Do you guys realize that 4% boost, 6% boost or whatever doesn’t actually mean anything?

10% boost to build A is different than 10% boost to build B. It’s like comparing apples and oranges.

No its not. Now, if you said it boost 2000 dmg, it will only work if you talk about fully buffed meta build party.

But when you want to compare different build, then % make more sense. If you have a guy doing 4000 dps, EA will bring is dps to about 4000 * 1.04 = 4160. If someone else is doing about 13 000 dps, EA will bring is dps to about 13 000 * 1.04 = 13 520 dps. So that work perfectly. 4% boost is the same for everybody, but the actual dps that this produce is different. Of course the 4% is only a small trick to estimate the difference. Its not the same for everybuild neither. Some build will get better return from the power, while other won’t be as much. For some build its more around 3-4% while other, it more 4-5%. But its a good estimation.

So in your opinion 520 is same as 160?

If I lose 2000 for using EA, it’s a huge difference whether everyone gets 160 or 520.

Wethospu.6437:

So in your opinion 520 is same as 160?

If I lose 2000 for using EA, it’s a huge difference whether everyone gets 160 or 520.

I didn’t said that. The percentage was only to give a measure. The better DPS your party have, usually mean that EA will be a better investment. But again, the better the party DPS is, then the less EA will affect them.

Usually, in a fully buffed party, EA will be good. Not spectacular, but good. In normal, party, it will be only a small buff, while in bad group, it will be a waste.

You can’t take a decision whatever its good or not to bring EA just by looking at 4%. But it give you an estimation of what will be the result of having or not the 4%, so someone can figure out, when its a good thing to have and when it not. Its only a tool. If you need a house, be glad if someone is giving you an Hammer, don’t say that a Hammer can protect you from the rain.

4% all by itself don’t help you much to make up your mind. But its a tool that will help you figure it out. If I said that EA give around 2000 dps to a party, it would be a lie and wouldn’t help most ppl at all. But on a party of bearbow and AH staff guardian, it won’t boost the dmg by 2000 dps.

So let’s say using EA I lose 5% of my damage. Everyone else gains 4% damage.

Worth of it or not?

Wethospu.6437:

So let’s say using EA I lose 5% of my damage. Everyone else gains 4% damage.

Worth of it or not?

Really. What do you want to achieve here man? I already said, the percentage on it own mean nothing, you need to apply it to a specific situation in order to have an answer.

Lets take this the other way around. What would you give in place of a percentage if you were in my place?

I want people to understand that both damage boost and base damage are needed to make informed decision. Now most people throw %-numbers around without actually saying anything.

Warrior has to make a sacrifice so it’s not entirely trivial whether it’s really worth of it. I have yet to see any solid numbers based on pug builds.

If you want a definitive answer go do the math yourself man and stop bursting my balls. I said that the 4% wasn’t the whole answer and a lot of ppl always give information with fully buffed DPS numbers. I won’t take the time to do the math on a pugs build, because that can range from 2k up to 10k dps.

I don’t really care about the result. But I care about people spreading misinformation (basing their results on nothing).

What does your 4% tell if you can’t get any reliable results out of it?

Weth is correct. Talking about percentages is only relevant if everyone’s dps was equal. What matters is that an EA warrior loses a very real nominal amount of DPS to run EA. So it matters completely whether or not the group gains nominal DPS high enough to compensate, and you can see where I stand on that.

Wethospu.6437:

I don’t really care about the result. But I care about people spreading misinformation (basing their results on nothing).

What does your 4% tell if you can’t get any reliable results out of it?

You begin to really kitten me off right now. Its just a number dude relax. Its not misinformation based on nothing, it based on the math I did on DPS, which is really similar to other ppl number so I figure out that even if i’m probably not 100% perfect, I’m not that far from the truth.

All the dps numbers were fully buffed. For a thief Sw/P it gave me + 3.8% dps with EA, for a Sword Ranger it gave me +3.4% dps, for a Elementalist its about +3.8% dps. If i remove fury, vulnerability, might, banners, but keep a meta build and gear, then the numbers are more 5.6% for Elementalist, 4.4% for rangers, and 5.1% for the thief.

Now you see that the % change. The more dps you have the less impact it have. But the numbers don’t seem to drop more even if you drop your dps. If i remove all the damage modifier on the thief, the food, potions and sigil it is still at 5.1% dps increase. So that’s why I said that 4% will give you a good idea of what EA will provide to you group.

Fully buffed meta build do around 9k-16k dps depending on your profession.
Pugs that can’t maintain all buff, but still use meta build usually have around 7-11k dps depending on the composition and profession.
Pugs without any meta build will do between from 3k to 10k dps. (Build can vary by a lot so its hard to pinpoint a smaller range of dps.

That’s is the information from where I base my conclusion. With bad pugs, EA is not worth it, with normal good group it doesn’t really matter if you have or not EA, while on good organized group, this will help, but not by much.

It is just a discussion. But good job, that is already much better.

Yes, %- gets higher when your Power decreases. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean higher damage.

For example player A with 1k Power gets 15% more damage while player B with 3k Power gets only 5% more damage. With 3k power player B already deals 3x damage as player A. Let’s say player A has 1000 dps. 15% increase would make it 1150 dps (150 more). Player B has then 3000 dps. 5% increase results in 3150 dps (150 more). Both gained same boost!

Then if you add some Precision / Ferocity / multipliers to player B his dps increases and he actually gets bigger effect from EA than player A.

Now lot of players seem to only look at the %-boost (not meaning you) and concluding that EA buffs weak players most.

Again, the problem is that you are comparing the much more consistent axe DPS with peak GS DPS, since EA build is an axe build. Here are some numbers from my spreadsheet:

4/6/0/4/0 A/M (EA): 10200
6/6/0/2/0 A/M (axe DPS. no EA): 11000
6/6/0/2/0 GS (perfect walled rotation): 11300
6/6/0/2/0 GS (perfect unwalled rotation): 10900
6/6/0/2/0 GS (no WWA): 9600

So you’re looking at a DPS loss of approximately 1500 DPS at most. The absolute worst case boost from EA is a PVT with full points in power line but who manages to not take any DPS traits and is using a crap weapon. Let’s say 6/0/0/6/2 staff guard with Hoelbrak and crap sigils, using Empower on cooldown:

With EA: 2636
Without EA: 2554

That means you’re only losing about 700 DPS tops even with the worst group ever. Realistically it’s going to be a bit better than that, all I have to do is switch that staff guardian to GS and leave everything the same and he now goes up to 5600 DPS without EA, 5800 DPS with, and that’s basically break-even point.

Ya i see what you mean. But not all ppl can and want to do all the math. Of course, it depend on a lot of factor and using a percentage is far from perfect. But it will give you a good idea of the situation. Anyway, even if you do the best math possible, it change so much during even a run. Someone forget its potions, the might, fury and vulnerability vary, a banner is in CD, etc. So even if you do the perfect math, its won’t be representative and never will be. So a percentage will do the job just right. But your right, you need to use your head when you use the percentage. But it give you a general idea of the EA buff. Its range from 3 to 6 percent depending on the situation. It different than a buff that give you a 10-15% buff.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Again, the problem is that you are comparing the much more consistent axe DPS with peak GS DPS, since EA build is an axe build.

This is where you’re mistaken. You seem to be in a world where 100b are impossible to land without interrupting by axe chains never get interrupted, or Rips always happen perfectly after an auto chain. Both chains are equally fragile or equally easy depending on how you look at them. Neither I, or anyone else experienced with Warrior and the boss fights in this game, have much of a problem landing consistent Hundred Blades.

And, the difference between walled or unwalled is not that high, since you can interrupt your whirlwind in the middle of the enemy by switching weapons and continue to dps him. You don’t need to fly far away or stop using whirlwind when you are not in a wall. Ya you lose dps and its harder and you can screw up more compare to when you are walled, but its not that big of a deal.

If you are playing with a bunch of bads adding EA means they get 150 power but are still bad. No maths necessary. If your playing with good players adding more vuln to boost thier good dps without taking so much of a hit to your own DPS is better.

Depending on your parties comp EA can be good or could not be as helpful otherwise cuz like I said bad comp + bad pugs its like trying to polish a kitten gl with that.

Dont play with bad pugs in bad comps problem solved.

Warlord.9074:

If your playing with good players adding more vuln to boost thier good dps without taking so much of a hit to your own DPS is better.

FWIW the pure axe EA build maintains 1 more vuln per second than the 65003 build so that isn’t really a point of compromise.

Tree.3916:

Warlord.9074:

If your playing with good players adding more vuln to boost thier good dps without taking so much of a hit to your own DPS is better.

FWIW the pure axe EA build maintains 1 more vuln per second than the 65003 build so that isn’t really a point of compromise.

ya kinda is cuz you still making plenty of sacrifices to run it even if its still viable it isn’t better. also its boring and sucks having no mobility. Anyways at this point think we have exhausted this debate. TY to Nike and DNT.

Tree.3916:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Again, the problem is that you are comparing the much more consistent axe DPS with peak GS DPS, since EA build is an axe build.

This is where you’re mistaken. You seem to be in a world where 100b are impossible to land without interrupting by axe chains never get interrupted, or Rips always happen perfectly after an auto chain. Both chains are equally fragile or equally easy depending on how you look at them. Neither I, or anyone else experienced with Warrior and the boss fights in this game, have much of a problem landing consistent Hundred Blades.

Interrupting axe chain is a much smaller DPS loss than interrupting HB. For starters, Axe chain has a smaller interrupt window (only during the last three hits, versus the entirety of HB) and more importantly, axe chain doesn’t have a cooldown. I mathed it on DnT’s board a while back, assuming you are interrupting the chain at equal points in the channel, axe chain only results in a bigger DPS loss if it’s interrupted in the split second between the fifth and sixth hits.

You also make it sound like experienced players can control exactly when and where bosses swing at them so they can always land full HBs on cooldown even in pugs. In my own experience I’m lucky if the pug doesn’t kite the boss out of the HB mid-channel, much less control it enough in a wall that I can always land a full HB the instant it recharges. Keep in mind that even with a walled WWA adding to DPS, you only need to delay your HB on average about 2 seconds before your overall DPS starts to drop below axe DPS.