Guild Wars 2

I know lots of people feel that Warrior is sort of locked into 2 of their traitlines in any mode other than PvE (Defense, Discipline), and it limits builds a lot. Would giving all warriors the ability to have 5 second weapon swap fix this, or will Discipline still be necessary for Warrior’s sprint? Would this be too OP? Looking for opinions on this. I know I will get a lot of bias since this is the Warrior forum, but I’m sure many can look at it objectively.

I don’t know about others but I have tried playing warrior without Fast Hands and it feels almost like a completely different class. It’s a shame something so emblematic of Warriors should require a trait.

I feel like Defense will be easier to let go of then Discipline come Spellbreaker, replacing Defense with Strength. Mostly for fast hamds, Condi clear on swap, and sprint. I don’t know yet if the sustain is a wash between Spellbreaker and Defense, but Spellbreaker brings quite a bit, more is my initial impression depending on the build. That at least leaves you condi clear on a short cd and Might Makes Right unless you want the hammer trait. You’ll never make full use of the clears through Defense with Spellbreaker anyhow.

The connundrum is that condi meta corners you into maximizing clears and resist. I’d feel better about dropping Discipline, camping a weapon a little longer and using some offensive utilities if I knew I wouldn’t melt.

For core you have to have fast hands to utilize cleansing ire else you’re sitting on 3 bars but the burst is on CD.

Even if they baseline fast hands in this meta you still have to tie it to condi clears from at least one trait….

Short answer:

1. Yes, it should be done
2. No, it wouldn’t be OP nor even necessarily power creep
3. No, Discipline wouldn’t still be mandatory, but it would still be a great traitline

a lot of us have literally been asking for this for years. it’s an integral part of the warrior play style, & most of the weapons have been designed around it. should have become baseline when shatter on mesmer became baseline too

still, posting about it has been about as effective as going to the park & eating handfuls of grass

Yes Fast Hands should be made baseline, for all reasons cited by other posters, it already brings so much to the warrior, yet the class isn’t close to the top in the various fighting modes.

Yes it might be too powerful, because you’d get Reckless Dodge, Building Momentum, Might Makes Right, Adrenal Health and Cleansing Ire/Last Stand along with an elite spec, i.e. a brutal and agile tank. Might Makes Right might however be nerfed soon though (probably with an internal CD), given all the whining there’s around, so it could even end up just fine.

SWI.4127:

I know lots of people feel that Warrior is sort of locked into 2 of their traitlines in any mode other than PvE (Defense, Discipline), and it limits builds a lot. Would giving all warriors the ability to have 5 second weapon swap fix this, or will Discipline still be necessary for Warrior’s sprint? Would this be too OP? Looking for opinions on this. I know I will get a lot of bias since this is the Warrior forum, but I’m sure many can look at it objectively.

I don’t know about others but I have tried playing warrior without Fast Hands and it feels almost like a completely different class. It’s a shame something so emblematic of Warriors should require a trait.

Spellbreaker doesn’t need Defense. Playing Spellbreaker like Core Warrior/Berserker won’t unleash Spellbreaker’s true potential.

ya but what does discipline really offer without fasthands in the mix?

It’s basically:
-remove immobilize with movement skills
-clear a condition on weapon swap
-always have enough adrenaline to f2.

I mean arms can replace the third thing there. sigils can replace the second thing there, or cleansing ire can, and removing immobilize is already glitchy and unreliable most of the time anyways so…..

Cerby.1069:

ya but what does discipline really offer without fasthands in the mix?

It’s basically:
-remove immobilize with movement skills
-clear a condition on weapon swap
-always have enough adrenaline to f2.

I mean arms can replace the third thing there. sigils can replace the second thing there, or cleansing ire can, and removing immobilize is already glitchy and unreliable most of the time anyways so…..

The axe trait is now in Discipline, Heightened Reflexes is also good (I use it currently), might and adrenaline on swap is good, burst CD reduction is good, warrior sprint for movement is good (though not irreplaceable), and DotE is there if Brawler’s isn’t needed.

Even if Fast Hands was made baseline, I expect a large percentage of builds would still trait Discipline. But they wouldn’t have to, and build that didn’t may even be competitive.

discipline giving base movement speed, fast hands which is mandatory for pvp…
These two things alone make it a must take in every good pvp build.

5 years the Warrior forums has been asking for this…. Maybe in another 5 years.

I used to disagree with FH being baseline for warrior, but now after playing it a lot more, I have come around and it definitely suits the class as a baseline.

+1

I agree, Fast Hands needs to be baseline. It also makes sense on the Warrior, since he’s supposed to be THE most trained fighter amongst all classes. There is a reason why the warrior alone can use so many weapons, it needs to show more.

No.

This choice between discipline and strength acts as a counterbalance on the elite specs allowing core warrior to have a place.

Core warrior gets freedom of choice, and Elite specs gets powerfull abilities that core will never have.

Giving all warriors Fast Hands baseline only waters down core and makes elite specs feel mandatory.

It’s seems clear to me that the devs do not want this situation where Berserkers, Spellbreakers, and core warriors all choose the same traits, or a situation where all of the most powerfull traits can always be chosen.

Right now there’s are real trade offs and big decisions one must make when choosing your spec, that is how it should be.

sneakytails.5629:

No.

This choice between discipline and strength acts as a counterbalance on the elite specs allowing core warrior to have a place.

Core warrior gets freedom of choice, and Elite specs gets powerfull abilities that core will never have.

Giving all warriors Fast Hands baseline only waters down core and makes elite specs feel mandatory.

It’s seems clear to me that the devs do not want this situation where Berserkers, Spellbreakers, and core warriors all choose the same traits, or a situation where all of the most powerfull traits can always be chosen.

Right now there’s are real trade offs and big decisions one must make when choosing your spec, that is how it should be.

Well, you’re dead wrong about core. Discipline would still remain a great line in its own right, and being able to opt for the other two under utilized lines would be good too. Where it created OP combinations through new found choice, then the specific traits that were combining too powerfully could get pinched.

Making FH baseline doesn’t remove tradeoffs, it removes the single trait that’s holding warrior’s build diversity hostage. Berserker wants to skip Discipline to take Strength? No problem, enjoy the longer burst cooldowns, etc. You’d have a point if Discipline was a junk line other than FH, but it’s not.

sneakytails.5629:

It’s seems clear to me that the devs do not want this situation where Berserkers, Spellbreakers, and core warriors all choose the same traits, or a situation where all of the most powerfull traits can always be chosen.

Right now there’s are real trade offs and big decisions one must make when choosing your spec, that is how it should be.

You must of have missed this part.

sneakytails.5629:

sneakytails.5629:

It’s seems clear to me that the devs do not want this situation where Berserkers, Spellbreakers, and core warriors all choose the same traits, or a situation where all of the most powerfull traits can always be chosen.

Right now there’s are real trade offs and big decisions one must make when choosing your spec, that is how it should be.

You must of have missed this part.

I specifically addressed your trade offs argument.

sneakytails.5629:

sneakytails.5629:

It’s seems clear to me that the devs do not want this situation where Berserkers, Spellbreakers, and core warriors all choose the same traits, or a situation where all of the most powerfull traits can always be chosen.

Right now there’s are real trade offs and big decisions one must make when choosing your spec, that is how it should be.

You must of have missed this part.

I think you’re living in some fantasy of your own where elite specs aren’t an objective upgrade over core in the overwhelming majority of cases. Even in the cases where it WASN’T are getting rectified with PoF: see cranger > soulbeast and crev > renegade.

The reality is that anet intends for elite specs to be equal to each other, but an improvement over core.

suggested since 3 years ago

defense/discipline/spellbreaker here we go again

Jzaku.9765:

sneakytails.5629:

sneakytails.5629:

It’s seems clear to me that the devs do not want this situation where Berserkers, Spellbreakers, and core warriors all choose the same traits, or a situation where all of the most powerfull traits can always be chosen.

Right now there’s are real trade offs and big decisions one must make when choosing your spec, that is how it should be.

You must of have missed this part.

I think you’re living in some fantasy of your own where elite specs aren’t an objective upgrade over core in the overwhelming majority of cases. Even in the cases where it WASN’T are getting rectified with PoF: see cranger > soulbeast and crev > renegade.

The reality is that anet intends for elite specs to be equal to each other, but an improvement over core.

Yes, Elite specs are an improvement over core and that’s fine. What I am arguing here, is that when a player does choose an elite spec you gain very real power over core, but you loose a little choice in play-style. (like taking every trait you really want)

Core gains freedom of choice (fast hands) because it does not have access to the special elite traits and skills.

That seems perfectly fair to me.

sneakytails.5629:

Jzaku.9765:

sneakytails.5629:

sneakytails.5629:

It’s seems clear to me that the devs do not want this situation where Berserkers, Spellbreakers, and core warriors all choose the same traits, or a situation where all of the most powerfull traits can always be chosen.

Right now there’s are real trade offs and big decisions one must make when choosing your spec, that is how it should be.

You must of have missed this part.

I think you’re living in some fantasy of your own where elite specs aren’t an objective upgrade over core in the overwhelming majority of cases. Even in the cases where it WASN’T are getting rectified with PoF: see cranger > soulbeast and crev > renegade.

The reality is that anet intends for elite specs to be equal to each other, but an improvement over core.

Yes, Elite specs are an improvement over core and that’s fine. What I am arguing here, is that when a player does choose an elite spec you gain very real power over core, but you loose a little choice in play-style. (like taking every trait you really want)

Core gains freedom of choice (fast hands) because it does not have access to the special elite traits and skills.

That seems perfectly fair to me.

Then we’re talking about completely different things. Yes core warrior gets to take an extra core trait line, but we’re not arguing for the whole discipline line to be made base so it’s no longer an active choice. The discipline line without fast hands still stands out as an exceptional choice – even for breaker’s melee centric gameplay with Warrior’s Sprint, Brawler’s Recovery, and especially Burst mastery to refund adrenaline to actually utilize the reset from Attacker’s Insight.

We want fast hands because it’s integral to warrior gameplay, which is the whole reason traits were made baseline in the first place. The most egregious example would be Illusionary Persona from mesmer, a grandmaster tier trait, being made baseline because it was so core to the mesmer gameplay to be able to panic shatter without any clones. As long as fast hands exists in discipline every warrior build practically mandates the discipline tree, as evidenced by i dunno, the last 5 years of warrior pvp builds.

Here I go again on my own
Goin’ down the only road I’ve ever known
Like a drifter I was born to walk alone
An’ I’ve made up my mind, I ain’t wasting no more time
Here I go again on my own
Goin’ down the only road I’ve ever known
Like a drifter I was born to walk alone
’Cause I know what it means to walk along the lonely street of dreams

Sorry, I just couldn’t stop myself. Doubt they will ever do this at this point unless they changed their philosophy on what a warrior should be in this game.

Jzaku.9765:

We want fast hands because it’s integral to warrior gameplay, which is the whole reason traits were made baseline in the first place. The most egregious example would be Illusionary Persona from mesmer, a grandmaster tier trait, being made baseline because it was so core to the mesmer gameplay to be able to panic shatter without any clones. As long as fast hands exists in discipline every warrior build practically mandates the discipline tree, as evidenced by i dunno, the last 5 years of warrior pvp builds.

While being a Mesmer – so people are likely to be triggered by my opinion – I’d like to point a pretty significant difference here: The core mechanic of Mesmers was invalidated completely when not having Illusions available. This was and still is the case very very frequently especially in large scale fights or in PvP/WvW where Illusions’ health remains low and Mesmers still have to incorporate some traits and/or skills to maintain a sufficient Illusion generation in many scenarios. Making IP baseline was a bandaid for that. We are talking about baseline viability and effecitiveness of a class mechanic.

Looking at Warrior, on one hand, I agree that Fast-Hands is a very powerful trait which most builds can benefit from – especially in a PvP scenario where flexibility is key. On the other hand, it is far from being mandatory for utilizing, for example, Burst skills. It just obviously makes them more accessible due to not-shared cooldowns. Most rotations (and I’m not talking smashing F1 as often as possible or raid benchmarks) can be performed without Fast-Hands even though admittedly sometimes at a slower pace.

People like to argue that this makes certain rotations unviable but that’s not true. They’re just less efficient (so maybe not meta) – not not effective at all. If this actually was the case one should discuss a specific rotation, not making Fast-Hands baseline. That’s also why I personally don’t share the opinion that Warriors were build around Fast-Hands. It is an ability which in this form is unique to Warriors but certainly is not an integral part to playing the class. I believe we would be less likely arguing this if Burst skills had shared cooldowns or Adrenal gain was slower but the skills themselves were more meaningful. The discussion about Fast-Hands is not about class and skill/mechanic viability or effectiveness but efficiency – and maybe a bit about convience.

To expand on that: Spellbreaker is less dependend on Fast-Hands than core Warrior or Berserker due to Full Counter not varying based on your weapon. Smart move by ANet and probably should have been done smiliarly for Berserker.

But I guess many Warrior mains don’t like SB. I’m for my part am looking forward to it.

Xaylin.1860:

Looking at Warrior, on one hand, I agree that Fast-Hands is a very powerful trait which most builds can benefit from – especially in a PvP scenario where flexibility is key. On the other hand, it is far from being mandatory for utilizing, for example, Burst skills.

A couple of questions:

1. Can you think of many (any?) builds considered competitive that don’t use Fast Hands?
2. If Fast Hands is a powerful trait, and given that the vast majority of warriors (past and present) trait Fast Hands, would you describe warriors as overpowered?

I suggest that, because almost all warriors trait Fast Hands (especially competitively), the class has been balanced around having it (cooldowns, damage, utility, etc). The consequence of that and the trait system is that the class unnecessarily loses build diversity potential, which can be corrected by making the one trait practically all warriors have always had baseline.

If making the trait baseline leads to any especially overpowered trait combinations, then those specific traits can be nerfed accordingly. The result would be greater build diversity without additional power creep.

The alternative (but more complicated) path would be to delete the Fast Hands trait altogether and then adjust all warrior cds, damage, utility, traits, etc. accordingly.

Choppy.4183:

Short answer:

1. Yes, it should be done
2. No, it wouldn’t be OP nor even necessarily power creep
3. No, Discipline wouldn’t still be mandatory, but it would still be a great traitline

This.

I’ve changed my position on this.

Rather than making it baseline, it would probably make more sense to just remove the trait entirely, then adjust weapon CDs to compensate. Yes, we will lose out on the ease of comboing skills together – but I’m tired of the whole class being balanced around this single perk. Shorter weapon CDs can still be useful and will buff us as a whole. The traitline will still be great for the speed boost, while buffing builds that focus more on in combat mobility by using Bull’s Charge and weapons like sword, hammer, and greatsword.

Giving us the trait baseline will just lead to every other class saying “well I want x baseline then.” Mes getting that GM baseline was mostly because their class mechanic wasn’t useble without clones when you didn’t have it equipped. Let’s face it, all it did in the end was let them blow their Distortion on a 1 second duration shatter. While potentially useful – Chrono made this pointless because they’re constantly spamming clones anyways.

Warriors getting Fast hands baseline would just give us an ability no other class in the game has. Slightly decreasing CDs would just be to bring them in line with other classes that don’t have Fast hands. The decrease would probably be stupid low in some cases, but it’s still a universal buff that doesn’t screw us down the road when it comes to design.

If you need to have a passive permanently slotted to make a class bearable then that’s a serious design flaw going over the heads of anet devs not realizing how crippling it is ( not even talking about fast hands only but also warri sprint ) not to take either of them in any build you make.

Xaylin.1860:

Jzaku.9765:

We want fast hands because it’s integral to warrior gameplay, which is the whole reason traits were made baseline in the first place. The most egregious example would be Illusionary Persona from mesmer, a grandmaster tier trait, being made baseline because it was so core to the mesmer gameplay to be able to panic shatter without any clones. As long as fast hands exists in discipline every warrior build practically mandates the discipline tree, as evidenced by i dunno, the last 5 years of warrior pvp builds.

While being a Mesmer – so people are likely to be triggered by my opinion – I’d like to point a pretty significant difference here: The core mechanic of Mesmers was invalidated completely when not having Illusions available. This was and still is the case very very frequently especially in large scale fights or in PvP/WvW where Illusions’ health remains low and Mesmers still have to incorporate some traits and/or skills to maintain a sufficient Illusion generation in many scenarios. Making IP baseline was a bandaid for that. We are talking about baseline viability and effecitiveness of a class mechanic.

Looking at Warrior, on one hand, I agree that Fast-Hands is a very powerful trait which most builds can benefit from – especially in a PvP scenario where flexibility is key. On the other hand, it is far from being mandatory for utilizing, for example, Burst skills. It just obviously makes them more accessible due to not-shared cooldowns. Most rotations (and I’m not talking smashing F1 as often as possible or raid benchmarks) can be performed without Fast-Hands even though admittedly sometimes at a slower pace.

People like to argue that this makes certain rotations unviable but that’s not true. They’re just less efficient (so maybe not meta) – not not effective at all. If this actually was the case one should discuss a specific rotation, not making Fast-Hands baseline. That’s also why I personally don’t share the opinion that Warriors were build around Fast-Hands. It is an ability which in this form is unique to Warriors but certainly is not an integral part to playing the class. I believe we would be less likely arguing this if Burst skills had shared cooldowns or Adrenal gain was slower but the skills themselves were more meaningful. The discussion about Fast-Hands is not about class and skill/mechanic viability or effectiveness but efficiency – and maybe a bit about convience.

To expand on that: Spellbreaker is less dependend on Fast-Hands than core Warrior or Berserker due to Full Counter not varying based on your weapon. Smart move by ANet and probably should have been done smiliarly for Berserker.

But I guess many Warrior mains don’t like SB. I’m for my part am looking forward to it.

I mained mesmer before switching to warrior. I urge you to play without fast hands at lets say gold or higher, then switch to fast hands. Warrior is already the least used class in competitive. The difference this trait makes is NOT convenience. It is irreplaceable on a class that already struggles to apply damage against competent opponents. Huge telegraphs, easy dodges. Having access to the right thing at the right time is necessary when you can get kited and dodged as hard as you do against good opponents.

This simply has to happen. There is NO Warrior build diversity currently, as it is a 100% mandatory trait… Period.

I think you all are missing the point Xaylin made. Fast hands being overpowered and mandatory for any viable warrior build doesnt mean it should be baseline as it doesnt cripple your core mechanics in any way as other situations exposed (mesmer). If fast hands was made baseline, you might aswell make cleansing ire baseline as you “will notice a heavy difference playing at gold tier or higher with or without it”.
I hate trait lines being mandatory, and I would like to be able to drop def/disc too, but imo theres no reasonable reason behind making FH base besides Anet being lazy and balancing warrior the cheap way.

Krysard.1364:

I think you all are missing the point Xaylin made. Fast hands being overpowered and mandatory for any viable warrior build doesnt mean it should be baseline as it doesnt cripple your core mechanics in any way as other situations exposed (mesmer). If fast hands was made baseline, you might aswell make cleansing ire baseline as you “will notice a heavy difference playing at gold tier or higher with or without it”.
I hate trait lines being mandatory, and I would like to be able to drop def/disc too, but imo theres no reasonable reason behind making FH base besides Anet being lazy and balancing warrior the cheap way.

Except Cleansing Ire isn’t mandatory, lots of competitive builds don’t use it, and its effects are easily replicated using other useful traits and skills.

My response to Xaylin’s point, as you’ve laid it out, is so what? Fast Hands isn’t only important for the core mechanic, and being shut out of a core mechanic isn’t the litmus test for whether something should be made baseline.

Whether Fast Hands should be made baseline isn’t about mesmers, but since we’re talking about IP as though that’s the standard, did you know that there were several common and competitive builds that didn’t use it before it was baselined? Not so with Fast Hands, which seems to me a more compelling case.

Did you also know that IP wasn’t the only trait made baseline for mesmers at that time? Is the claim now that all of those traits were necessary for mesmers to access their core mechanic, and that that’s more compelling than the case for Fast Hands? I hope not.

It’s either make Fast Hands baseline, delete it while bringing in a host of additional balance changes, or unnecessarily keep warrior in a narrow range of build diversity by sticking with the status quo for…. reasons.

I’d rather Anet take the “cheap way” as you’ve described it than nothing at all. Hell, I might even prefer it as the least disruptive and most achievable fix.

Krysard.1364:

I think you all are missing the point Xaylin made. Fast hands being overpowered and mandatory for any viable warrior build doesnt mean it should be baseline as it doesnt cripple your core mechanics in any way as other situations exposed (mesmer). If fast hands was made baseline, you might aswell make cleansing ire baseline as you “will notice a heavy difference playing at gold tier or higher with or without it”.
I hate trait lines being mandatory, and I would like to be able to drop def/disc too, but imo theres no reasonable reason behind making FH base besides Anet being lazy and balancing warrior the cheap way.

Here’s something Xaylin is saying (uninformed):
“Looking at Warrior, on one hand, I agree that Fast-Hands is a very powerful trait which most builds can benefit from – especially in a PvP scenario where flexibility is key. On the other hand, it is far from being mandatory for utilizing, for example, Burst skills. It just obviously makes them more accessible due to not-shared cooldowns. Most rotations (and I’m not talking smashing F1 as often as possible or raid benchmarks) can be performed without Fast-Hands even though admittedly sometimes at a slower pace.
People like to argue that this makes certain rotations unviable but that’s not true. They’re just less efficient (so maybe not meta) – not not effective at all. If this actually was the case one should discuss a specific rotation, not making Fast-Hands baseline”

Since we’re talking about PvP, and we’re discussing it on a class that is completely missing from high level play because even with Fast hands on every single comp build it simply isn’t good enough……

Not having fast hands 100% gimps you in competitive. Good players understand this. It is not a case of being “less efficient”. It has been completely entrenched for years. Warrior is garbage tier in PvP, and this trait is probably the only thing that gives you the situational versatility to even attempt to climb.

It is MANDATORY.

Rotation? Are we talking about Rotations on warrior and PvP in the same sentence? Going to go ahead and discount this entire thing as PvE hero rambling despite the assurances otherwise. Warrior skills have huge telegraphs. Against intelligent players, it is a constant set of mind games and dodge baiting, and when you don’t have fast hands your options for actually applying damage are so incredibly predictable.

To be clear, I am not 100% on the wagon for baseline fast hands, but I need to point out the completely incorrect assessment of warriors reliance on it.

Choppy.4183:

Krysard.1364:

I think you all are missing the point Xaylin made. Fast hands being overpowered and mandatory for any viable warrior build doesnt mean it should be baseline as it doesnt cripple your core mechanics in any way as other situations exposed (mesmer). If fast hands was made baseline, you might aswell make cleansing ire baseline as you “will notice a heavy difference playing at gold tier or higher with or without it”.
I hate trait lines being mandatory, and I would like to be able to drop def/disc too, but imo theres no reasonable reason behind making FH base besides Anet being lazy and balancing warrior the cheap way.

Except Cleansing Ire isn’t mandatory, lots of competitive builds don’t use it, and its effects are easily replicated using other useful traits and skills.

My response to Xaylin’s point, as you’ve laid it out, is so what? Fast Hands isn’t only important for the core mechanic, and being shut out of a core mechanic isn’t the litmus test for whether something should be made baseline.

Whether Fast Hands should be made baseline isn’t about mesmers, but since we’re talking about IP as though that’s the standard, did you know that there were several common and competitive builds that didn’t use it before it was baselined? Not so with Fast Hands, which seems to me a more compelling case.

Did you also know that IP wasn’t the only trait made baseline for mesmers at that time? Is the claim now that all of those traits were necessary for mesmers to access their core mechanic, and that that’s more compelling than the case for Fast Hands? I hope not.

It’s either make Fast Hands baseline, delete it while bringing in a host of additional balance changes, or unnecessarily keep warrior in a narrow range of build diversity by sticking with the status quo for…. reasons.

I’d rather Anet take the “cheap way” as you’ve described it than nothing at all. Hell, I might even prefer it as the least disruptive and most achievable fix.

Except Ive seen more competitive (talking about pvp btw) builds without fast hands than cleansing ire. No decent warrior build has ever played without cleansing ire for as far as I can remember. Also, my point was, FH shouldnt be made baseline cause it doesnt hinder thw actual class mechanics, opposed to other cases. It has nothing to do with a trait being mandatory or not. Making FH base would be the unreasonable and lazy solution. If its the only solution, well, thats sad, but I would rather have anet fix warrior and make FH an optional trait that changes the way you play warr, like it does Fresh Air to say something.

CrashTheGrey.1492:

Krysard.1364:

I think you all are missing the point Xaylin made. Fast hands being overpowered and mandatory for any viable warrior build doesnt mean it should be baseline as it doesnt cripple your core mechanics in any way as other situations exposed (mesmer). If fast hands was made baseline, you might aswell make cleansing ire baseline as you “will notice a heavy difference playing at gold tier or higher with or without it”.
I hate trait lines being mandatory, and I would like to be able to drop def/disc too, but imo theres no reasonable reason behind making FH base besides Anet being lazy and balancing warrior the cheap way.

Here’s something Xaylin is saying (uninformed):
“Looking at Warrior, on one hand, I agree that Fast-Hands is a very powerful trait which most builds can benefit from – especially in a PvP scenario where flexibility is key. On the other hand, it is far from being mandatory for utilizing, for example, Burst skills. It just obviously makes them more accessible due to not-shared cooldowns. Most rotations (and I’m not talking smashing F1 as often as possible or raid benchmarks) can be performed without Fast-Hands even though admittedly sometimes at a slower pace.
People like to argue that this makes certain rotations unviable but that’s not true. They’re just less efficient (so maybe not meta) – not not effective at all. If this actually was the case one should discuss a specific rotation, not making Fast-Hands baseline”

Since we’re talking about PvP, and we’re discussing it on a class that is completely missing from high level play because even with Fast hands on every single comp build it simply isn’t good enough……

Not having fast hands 100% gimps you in competitive. Good players understand this. It is not a case of being “less efficient”. It has been completely entrenched for years. Warrior is garbage tier in PvP, and this trait is probably the only thing that gives you the situational versatility to even attempt to climb.

It is MANDATORY.

Rotation? Are we talking about Rotations on warrior and PvP in the same sentence? Going to go ahead and discount this entire thing as PvE hero rambling despite the assurances otherwise. Warrior skills have huge telegraphs. Against intelligent players, it is a constant set of mind games and dodge baiting, and when you don’t have fast hands your options for actually applying damage are so incredibly predictable.

To be clear, I am not 100% on the wagon for baseline fast hands, but I need to point out the completely incorrect assessment of warriors reliance on it.

As I said just above, my point was not negating the dependence warrior has in fast hands, but rather how to fix it instead of just making FH baseline, which is unlikely and it doesnt make sense at all(that is, by design, not viability).

Krysard.1364:

Except Ive seen more competitive (talking about pvp btw) builds without fast hands than cleansing ire. No decent warrior build has ever played without cleansing ire for as far as I can remember. Also, my point was, FH shouldnt be made baseline cause it doesnt hinder thw actual class mechanics, opposed to other cases. It has nothing to do with a trait being mandatory or not. Making FH base would be the unreasonable and lazy solution. If its the only solution, well, thats sad, but I would rather have anet fix warrior and make FH an optional trait that changes the way you play warr, like it does Fresh Air to say something.

Which competitive builds aren’t slotting Fast Hands in pvp? Meanwhile, Cleaning Ire is the more commonly selected GM trait on a line that’s taken for other reasons, with Rousing Resilience and Last Stand making appearances as well.

In fact, Fast Hands had been in practically every competitive build even before Cleansing Ire was introduced and before the current trait system. At that time, every competitive warrior build invested just enough points to get Fast Hands and then often stopped going any further into Discipline.

That aside, there’s no history of hindrance to the core mechanic being the determining factor for baselining a trait and it’s not a compelling argument anyway.

Moreover, it makes no sense to say Fast Hands shouldn’t be baselined to deal with a problem but, instead, Anet should invest a bunch more time buffing other areas to make warrior viable without it. Obviously, if they took the longer path, then FH would have to be deleted.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune_of_the_Warrior

Balance it the way they balance necromancer; nerf them to encourage diversity. Reduce Fast Hands from 5s to 2s CD reduction

Let’s just remove all traits and make everything baseline /s.
The problem with warrior is that the rest of the class is garbage so being forced into discipline to take Fast Hands and have the class feel anything resembling good makes warrior mains feel even worse than they already do for being a warrior main.

Krysard.1364:

I think you all are missing the point Xaylin made. Fast hands being overpowered and mandatory for any viable warrior build doesnt mean it should be baseline as it doesnt cripple your core mechanics in any way as other situations exposed (mesmer). If fast hands was made baseline, you might aswell make cleansing ire baseline as you “will notice a heavy difference playing at gold tier or higher with or without it”.

Except that is one of the most kittened things I have ever read. Is it selective memory or something because this is the list of traits made baseline, for Mesmer since that’s the topic right now but the theme is the same for the other classes:

Mesmer
Traits that are now baseline:

Reduced glamour recharge rate
Phantasmal damage boost
Manipulation range.
Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well.
Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce.
Protective Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra

Yeah I’m incredibly sure that further blink and mantra armor really affected your ability to shatter

The intention was qol and trait diversity, and warrior is the one class with THE worst trait diversity in the game.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’ve changed my position on this.

Rather than making it baseline, it would probably make more sense to just remove the trait entirely, then adjust weapon CDs to compensate. Yes, we will lose out on the ease of comboing skills together – but I’m tired of the whole class being balanced around this single perk. Shorter weapon CDs can still be useful and will buff us as a whole. The traitline will still be great for the speed boost, while buffing builds that focus more on in combat mobility by using Bull’s Charge and weapons like sword, hammer, and greatsword.

Giving us the trait baseline will just lead to every other class saying “well I want x baseline then.” Mes getting that GM baseline was mostly because their class mechanic wasn’t useble without clones when you didn’t have it equipped. Let’s face it, all it did in the end was let them blow their Distortion on a 1 second duration shatter. While potentially useful – Chrono made this pointless because they’re constantly spamming clones anyways.

Warriors getting Fast hands baseline would just give us an ability no other class in the game has. Slightly decreasing CDs would just be to bring them in line with other classes that don’t have Fast hands. The decrease would probably be stupid low in some cases, but it’s still a universal buff that doesn’t screw us down the road when it comes to design.

Totally agree with this. To be honest i think burst skills should be reduced in cd anyways. The point is that like every other class with their class mechanics, your supposed to trick it out to suit your playstyle, for warrior to have it depends on 3 things (adrenaline, cd, accuracy) is what is severely hampering the class. It’s not the whole spec

Choppy.4183:

Krysard.1364:

Except Ive seen more competitive (talking about pvp btw) builds without fast hands than cleansing ire. No decent warrior build has ever played without cleansing ire for as far as I can remember. Also, my point was, FH shouldnt be made baseline cause it doesnt hinder thw actual class mechanics, opposed to other cases. It has nothing to do with a trait being mandatory or not. Making FH base would be the unreasonable and lazy solution. If its the only solution, well, thats sad, but I would rather have anet fix warrior and make FH an optional trait that changes the way you play warr, like it does Fresh Air to say something.

Which competitive builds aren’t slotting Fast Hands in pvp? Meanwhile, Cleaning Ire is the more commonly selected GM trait on a line that’s taken for other reasons, with Rousing Resilience and Last Stand making appearances as well.

In fact, Fast Hands had been in practically every competitive build even before Cleansing Ire was introduced and before the current trait system. At that time, every competitive warrior build invested just enough points to get Fast Hands and then often stopped going any further into Discipline.

That aside, there’s no history of hindrance to the core mechanic being the determining factor for baselining a trait and it’s not a compelling argument anyway.

Moreover, it makes no sense to say Fast Hands shouldn’t be baselined to deal with a problem but, instead, Anet should invest a bunch more time buffing other areas to make warrior viable without it. Obviously, if they took the longer path, then FH would have to be deleted.

What should be the compelling argument then if its not something related to the core mechanics and design of warrior? As for FH having to be deleted if Anet properly balances warr, they should just make it compete with other strong GMs. And, iirc, when Anet buffed rifle like crazy, there was a build that countered a lot of tanky meta builds that used Arms instead of Disci. While not meta, it was rly strong on a lot of usual comps seen at top level, and that is already way more than we can say about Cleansing Ire.

Jzaku.9765:

Krysard.1364:

I think you all are missing the point Xaylin made. Fast hands being overpowered and mandatory for any viable warrior build doesnt mean it should be baseline as it doesnt cripple your core mechanics in any way as other situations exposed (mesmer). If fast hands was made baseline, you might aswell make cleansing ire baseline as you “will notice a heavy difference playing at gold tier or higher with or without it”.

Except that is one of the most kittened things I have ever read. Is it selective memory or something because this is the list of traits made baseline, for Mesmer since that’s the topic right now but the theme is the same for the other classes:

Mesmer
Traits that are now baseline:

Reduced glamour recharge rate
Phantasmal damage boost
Manipulation range.
Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well.
Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce.
Protective Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra

Yeah I’m incredibly sure that further blink and mantra armor really affected your ability to shatter

The intention was qol and trait diversity, and warrior is the one class with THE worst trait diversity in the game.

Reducing CDS and buffing damage has nothing to do with making traits/added mechanics baseline. Also, just going to stand out that in any way Ive been ever in favour of past “made baseline” changes that didnt affect the core mechanics per se, so looking for past examples does not do anything but prove my statement that Anet has been lazy design-wise, and making FH baseline wouldnt be but further evidences.

Krysard.1364:

What should be the compelling argument then if its not something related to the core mechanics and design of warrior? As for FH having to be deleted if Anet properly balances warr, they should just make it compete with other strong GMs. And, iirc, when Anet buffed rifle like crazy, there was a build that countered a lot of tanky meta builds that used Arms instead of Disci. While not meta, it was rly strong on a lot of usual comps seen at top level, and that is already way more than we can say about Cleansing Ire.

Design encompasses a lot more than the F1 abilities of a class. In this case, warrior has been balanced around FH precisely because it’s a powerful trait that practically all standard builds have used since launch.

The better litmus test is if a class is kitten without a trait. Traits are, according to Anet, supposed to be a means of customizing a class, and the traitlines are supposed to be optional.

Running rifle without Discipline has never been more than a gimmick in pvp, and is inferior on point and easily blown up without the element of surprise by a competent player. It can have its uses, but that doesn’t make it competitive.

ANet will never make FH baseline. No reason to. I don’t see what people would run if it was baseline anyway. Exactly what they have now except with a free trait slot to pick something else. It isn’t FH that’s limiting builds for warriors it’s the meta. If you want to blame something blame meta not FH. Baselining FH doesn’t solve the problem of build variety.

If the argument is to change FH because of meta then I think Burr is going in a better direction.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’ve changed my position on this.

Rather than making it baseline, it would probably make more sense to just remove the trait entirely, then adjust weapon CDs to compensate. Yes, we will lose out on the ease of comboing skills together – but I’m tired of the whole class being balanced around this single perk. Shorter weapon CDs can still be useful and will buff us as a whole. The traitline will still be great for the speed boost, while buffing builds that focus more on in combat mobility by using Bull’s Charge and weapons like sword, hammer, and greatsword.

Giving us the trait baseline will just lead to every other class saying “well I want x baseline then.” Mes getting that GM baseline was mostly because their class mechanic wasn’t useble without clones when you didn’t have it equipped. Let’s face it, all it did in the end was let them blow their Distortion on a 1 second duration shatter. While potentially useful – Chrono made this pointless because they’re constantly spamming clones anyways.

Warriors getting Fast hands baseline would just give us an ability no other class in the game has. Slightly decreasing CDs would just be to bring them in line with other classes that don’t have Fast hands. The decrease would probably be stupid low in some cases, but it’s still a universal buff that doesn’t screw us down the road when it comes to design.

jadaniel.4910:

ANet will never make FH baseline. No reason to. I don’t see what people would run if it was baseline anyway. Exactly what they have now except with a free trait slot to pick something else. It isn’t FH that’s limiting builds for warriors it’s the meta. If you want to blame something blame meta not FH. Baselining FH doesn’t solve the problem of build variety.

It can’t be the meta if the vast majority of warriors have been slotting the trait in all modes, across all metas, since game launch.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I used to disagree with FH being baseline for warrior, but now after playing it a lot more, I have come around and it definitely suits the class as a baseline.

+1

lol

It only took you 2 years.

BurrTheKing.8571:

it would probably make more sense to just remove the trait entirely, then adjust weapon CDs to compensate.

Which will not happen.

When it comes to Warrior balancing, Anet always chose the easier hustle free route.

Krysard.1364:

Choppy.4183:

Krysard.1364:

I think you all are missing the point Xaylin made. Fast hands being overpowered and mandatory for any viable warrior build doesnt mean it should be baseline as it doesnt cripple your core mechanics in any way as other situations exposed (mesmer). If fast hands was made baseline, you might aswell make cleansing ire baseline as you “will notice a heavy difference playing at gold tier or higher with or without it”.
I hate trait lines being mandatory, and I would like to be able to drop def/disc too, but imo theres no reasonable reason behind making FH base besides Anet being lazy and balancing warrior the cheap way.

Except Cleansing Ire isn’t mandatory, lots of competitive builds don’t use it, and its effects are easily replicated using other useful traits and skills.

My response to Xaylin’s point, as you’ve laid it out, is so what? Fast Hands isn’t only important for the core mechanic, and being shut out of a core mechanic isn’t the litmus test for whether something should be made baseline.

Whether Fast Hands should be made baseline isn’t about mesmers, but since we’re talking about IP as though that’s the standard, did you know that there were several common and competitive builds that didn’t use it before it was baselined? Not so with Fast Hands, which seems to me a more compelling case.

Did you also know that IP wasn’t the only trait made baseline for mesmers at that time? Is the claim now that all of those traits were necessary for mesmers to access their core mechanic, and that that’s more compelling than the case for Fast Hands? I hope not.

It’s either make Fast Hands baseline, delete it while bringing in a host of additional balance changes, or unnecessarily keep warrior in a narrow range of build diversity by sticking with the status quo for…. reasons.

I’d rather Anet take the “cheap way” as you’ve described it than nothing at all. Hell, I might even prefer it as the least disruptive and most achievable fix.

Except Ive seen more competitive (talking about pvp btw) builds without fast hands than cleansing ire. No decent warrior build has ever played without cleansing ire for as far as I can remember. Also, my point was, FH shouldnt be made baseline cause it doesnt hinder thw actual class mechanics, opposed to other cases. It has nothing to do with a trait being mandatory or not. Making FH base would be the unreasonable and lazy solution. If its the only solution, well, thats sad, but I would rather have anet fix warrior and make FH an optional trait that changes the way you play warr, like it does Fresh Air to say something.

Kinda agree,theres way too much condi being thrown around to be anywhere near viable in this current meta without condi cleanse.Ive tried ditching it at times in wvw to grab last stand but usually quickly switching back.Its not the fact that you fight One condi here and there its the fact that about Everyone and his mother is running condi specs atm.speaking about wvw.I dont see any build being viable without condi cleanse currently no matter how good u are.

On my main and some other warrior builds I run I take Destruction of the Empowered, not Cleansing Ire.

Everything is full offense trait and Sigil/Rune wise, I deal with condi through SoH, SoS, and BesP, positioning and the use of ranged pressure are used as well.

I would rather hit hard and slice through that condi cheese than rely on sustain which is easily kited/interrupted or just flat out overwhelmed.

Caedmon.6798:

Kinda agree,theres way too much condi being thrown around to be anywhere near viable in this current meta without condi cleanse.Ive tried ditching it at times in wvw to grab last stand but usually quickly switching back.Its not the fact that you fight One condi here and there its the fact that about Everyone and his mother is running condi specs atm.speaking about wvw.I dont see any build being viable without condi cleanse currently no matter how good u are.

I’ve been running Last Stand as a wvw roamer for about the last couple of years and to very good effect. We have plenty of tools to deal with condi besides Cleansing Ire.

You’ll note as well that when pressed for builds that don’t use FH, he could only make vague reference to a gimmick build that was rarely used and is easily shut down. Meanwhile, Rousing Resilience has actually been used by some Berserker builds to take advantage of all the stun breaks it provides. Last Stand is also viable in pvp, even if Cleansing Ire is normally a better choice.

Fast Hands is clearly the most (near) mandatory trait for warriors, and it has been since launch, at least in competitive play.

Choppy.4183:

Caedmon.6798:

Kinda agree,theres way too much condi being thrown around to be anywhere near viable in this current meta without condi cleanse.Ive tried ditching it at times in wvw to grab last stand but usually quickly switching back.Its not the fact that you fight One condi here and there its the fact that about Everyone and his mother is running condi specs atm.speaking about wvw.I dont see any build being viable without condi cleanse currently no matter how good u are.

I’ve been running Last Stand as a wvw roamer for about the last couple of years and to very good effect. We have plenty of tools to deal with condi besides Cleansing Ire.

You’ll note as well that when pressed for builds that don’t use FH, he could only make vague reference to a gimmick build that was rarely used and is easily shut down. Meanwhile, Rousing Resilience has actually been used by some Berserker builds to take advantage of all the stun breaks it provides. Last Stand is also viable in pvp, even if Cleansing Ire is normally a better choice.

Fast Hands is clearly the most (near) mandatory trait for warriors, and it has been since launch, at least in competitive play.

I dont know what tier youre fighting in.But i roam with 2 – 3 people mostly only fighting outmanned where about everyone is condi and otherwise being chased by a condi blob.Where doing these fights without condi cleanse it being a massive pain in the ass if resists are on cd.Even with cleansin ire,theres just so kitten much condi in wvw currently its hardly any fun either imo.Im hoping the xpack will switch things up,but i doubt.