Guild Wars 2

Amir.1570:

I find it funny that people are complaining about Skull Crack + HB with unsuspecting foe when that isn’t even the build that you would use if you were actually good with the class.

^

I just realized OP tried to compare it to the GM necro trait that permanently raises crit by 50% in Deathshroud with no disable requirement.

I lol’d.

Daecollo.9578:

I’m fine if Merciless Hammer gets:
Cause confusion for 5 seconds on critical hits, and hammer attacks have torment built into the autoattack and 4.

So you want hammer to be OP, there are already very good players with a hammer than can kill very effectively with it.

Fenrir.5493:

Daecollo.9578:

I’m fine if Merciless Hammer gets:
Cause confusion for 5 seconds on critical hits, and hammer attacks have torment built into the autoattack and 4.

So you want hammer to be OP, there are already very good players with a hammer than can kill very effectively with it.

No, I want it to have a condition so the condition damage will work with it. Beating someone with a hammer should confuse them, so it makes sense.

i’m sure that you would be pretty confused if someone beat you with a hammer, but if you check your comment history and sit and think about it for a little bit i’m sure you will figure it out.

Daecollo.9578:

Fenrir.5493:

Daecollo.9578:

I’m fine if Merciless Hammer gets:
Cause confusion for 5 seconds on critical hits, and hammer attacks have torment built into the autoattack and 4.

So you want hammer to be OP, there are already very good players with a hammer than can kill very effectively with it.

No, I want it to have a condition so the condition damage will work with it. Beating someone with a hammer should confuse them, so it makes sense.

I usually don’t like posts by Daecollo but this really made me lol.

Daecollo.9578:

Fenrir.5493:

Daecollo.9578:

I’m fine if Merciless Hammer gets:
Cause confusion for 5 seconds on critical hits, and hammer attacks have torment built into the autoattack and 4.

So you want hammer to be OP, there are already very good players with a hammer than can kill very effectively with it.

No, I want it to have a condition so the condition damage will work with it. Beating someone with a hammer should confuse them, so it makes sense.

There is a talent that called “Distracting strikes”, its like the thing you want, you should use it, but nonetheless i think that trait is in a bad spot, i think it should be in the adept trait because its not “that good” to be in a major, i think not a lot of people uses it because of that, but that dosent mean you cant build with it.

TheGuy.3568:

I think unsuspecting foe matches these traits in terms of what they do. All the traits greatly increase your critical hit chance provided you enter a state (stealth and death shroud) or your target enters a state (stunned). The issue is that both Deathly perception and Hidden Killer require a major investment in order to get access to this type of bonus. Unsuspecting foe on the other hand requires a small investment in order to gain its benefits.

When you compare it to the 2 other adept traits that increase crit chance the mismatch becomes more glaring. Precise Wrack adds a +10% chance to crit with 1 skill Mind Wrack. Side Strike grants a +7% chance to crit as long as you are flanking the target. Neither one of these skills compares to Unsuspecting Foe in terms of damage multiplication.

If you look at the traits that increase critical hit chance the rest are 10%-15% additions. Minor or major they are fount at the master level or higher.

IMHO an addition this big to critical hit chance should be found at the GM level.

First, all these others skills you’re comparing to are available with any weapon set, all the time – Mind Wrack, Death Shroud, Stealth. Every build, every weapon set, has access to those skills.

But Warriors only have access to stuns with just three weapons – Mace, Shield, Hammer – which is why UF is justified being in a lower tier.

Also, at a more meta level, counters are easy – stun break and permavigor – people just don’t like being forced to give up their OP builds to counter it, so they complain about it and try to get it nerfed instead.

Srsly, improvise, adapt, and overcome. If you’re actually a good player and not just being carried by an OP class meta, you can do this. If not, l2p.

Really, calling something OP on a class that is widely considered the weakest of all outside PvE, it just makes no sense at all. You can’t be UP while having OP traits, it is impossible.

I like how he wants it moved further into a tree that gives condition damage while none of the weapons that stun have any condition damage without the minor trait for bleeding or confusion on interrupt. Simply carrying a stunbreaker would make his life much easier and longer.

This may sound weird coming from a thief main, but I would like to see it extended to more disabled effects such as knockdown and fear (when you’re flat on your back or running in terror you make an awfully easy target). As for placement in trait trees it seems fine where it is to me.

Maugetarr.6823:

This may sound weird coming from a thief main, but I would like to see it extended to more disabled effects such as knockdown and fear (when you’re flat on your back or running in terror you make an awfully easy target). As for placement in trait trees it seems fine where it is to me.

And this will sound strange coming from a warrior main, but I think it’s fine as is. Applying it to Fear and knockdown will make it a bit too much IMO. We have good knockdown skills and a very strong Fear inducer.

Cygnus.6903:

Maugetarr.6823:

This may sound weird coming from a thief main, but I would like to see it extended to more disabled effects such as knockdown and fear (when you’re flat on your back or running in terror you make an awfully easy target). As for placement in trait trees it seems fine where it is to me.

And this will sound strange coming from a warrior main, but I think it’s fine as is. Applying it to Fear and knockdown will make it a bit too much IMO. We have good knockdown skills and a very strong Fear inducer.

Fair enough.

If the trait was moved, would it really have a mega nerf for the build over all?

imo no.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Example: In PvP, the Necro and Engi both vie for the position of condition pressure. The engineer has more physical alternatives, the Necro has more boon/condition manipulation, the Engi has more escapability, and the Necro is a little squishier. If we gave the Necro too much mobility or escapability, then all of a sudden their “tools” start to line up exactly. If this is the case, one of them will simply be better than the other, as far as efficacy goes, and thus, one will push the other out of the meta for that “role” on the team. This class would then be the “apex” predator for that role. So, in order to prevent this, we try to make it so that the classes don’t have all their tools overlap perfectly. This means you have to say (following our example), “Well, if we take a Necro, we get more condies, but a squishy body that can’t disengage…..but if we take Engi, we lose some DPS and control (depending on utils), but we get someone who can stand up to a spike better”.

Make sense? If we just gave the escape to Necro’s, then all of a sudden, the Necro is just the clear choice. Not all decisions come down to a clean break like this, but this is the type of thing we’re trying to do when we “deny” some classes certain tools.

This is the same reason that Red doesn’t get interrupts in Magic, the reason that Zergs, normally, have much more mobility than Protoss (since Toss are usually stronger unit-by-unit), and why Karthus has no escapes. By denying tools, you create choices for the players. We sometimes do a poor job of this, sorry. But overall, we try to make it so that all classes have choices, and teams have choices in which classes they bring.

Also, keep in mind we’re trying to get 8 classes to fit into 5 slots, for PvE, Dungeons, and PvP.

This is all high level, and I’m in a rush, but I just wanted to explain this real fast…..

It’s funny, being in China, I have more time to post on the forums than I do while in the office. That’s irony or something….like 10,000 spoons….

-Chap from China

/thread!!!

You can’t compare what one class has to another class as the foundation of your argument. Probably every thread on balance does this X class has this skill that says the same as Y so …. insert suggestion.

The purpose of the trait imo is for those people speccing tanky to still be able to produce decent damage. Alot of the warrior traits are placed in a way to allow this. They use to even more so with HF and berserkers power at adept.

Honestly just leave the trait where it is moving it doesn’t change anything you just crit a bit less if you don’t have the trait. The only skill you really really cared about was 100bs after skull.

Not agreeing with the OP’s suggestion at all as it is based off what other classes have which is kind of fail.

So I was bored and decided to try out LB S/S the other day and got spammed by an Engineer telling me how bad I was for playing a flavor of the month “noob” build and that is the only reason I managed to beat him repeatedly.

Only a matter of time and they will complain about everything warrior has. Bad players will always be bad, and they got used to warrior being a free kill and don’t like the taste of warrior being half way decent.

Ashanor.5319:

So I was bored and decided to try out LB S/S the other day and got spammed by an Engineer telling me how bad I was for playing a flavor of the month “noob” build and that is the only reason I managed to beat him repeatedly.

Only a matter of time and they will complain about everything warrior has. Bad players will always be bad, and they got used to warrior being a free kill and don’t like the taste of warrior being half way decent.

lololol its all perspective I find LB S/S condi builds to not be particularly threatening. Annoying yes but never had a problem with them.

Any range weapon set (no matter the class) usually deals with engi builds pretty evenly because their strength is range I don’t know why the guy is crying lol.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Right now Warriors are pretty much required to run either 0/20/20/0/30 or 0/10/30/0/30 if they want to run CC.

Actually, they just need 10 points in precision for a CC build.

oZii.2864:

JonathanSharp.7094:

So, in order to prevent this, we try to make it so that the classes don’t have all their tools overlap perfectly.

/thread!!!

You can’t compare what one class has to another class as the foundation of your argument. Probably every thread on balance does this X class has this skill that says the same as Y so …. insert suggestion.

The purpose of the trait imo is for those people speccing tanky to still be able to produce decent damage. Alot of the warrior traits are placed in a way to allow this. They use to even more so with HF and berserkers power at adept.

Honestly just leave the trait where it is moving it doesn’t change anything you just crit a bit less if you don’t have the trait. The only skill you really really cared about was 100bs after skull.

Not agreeing with the OP’s suggestion at all as it is based off what other classes have which is kind of fail.

First off that line alone would justify moving the trait as you have access to too many defensive trait and offensive traits in other trees with it that low.

As far as comparing traits from other classes. If in you estimation we do not look at the balance of traits in classes then what would we ever look at for balance? Critical chance and power are the best multipliers in direct damage in the game. I used the 2 strongest examples of this and both are high tier skills. The reason I did this is because they follow some of the restraints of unsuspecting foe but with less up time over all. Hidden killer applies to one hit and deathly perception only applies in death shroud. Now as many of you know and as many of you obliviously do not know you can not sit in death shroud and it will degrade as you stay in it. The glaring problem your missing in many post is the fact neither of those have strong CC while they do the dps and both can be countered by dodge. Fact is once your stunned if you do not have stun breaker available then you are screwed. A trait like unsuspecting foe pushes DPS too much at too low an investment.

Also another thing for all those this only applies if you carry a mace. a shield, or a hammer. The problem with this argument when comparing traits is that for a trait like hidden killer it only helps backstab builds. Any other build would be better off with executioner. In the Case of deathly perception as i stated much easier it is only effective in power builds. So in all cases there isn’t a wide range of builds for the traits.

I think we should get a grip on the spvp perception of classes. It really isn’t as important he more i think about it. The majority of the pop has all but said flat out “No” to it. Smallest pop, most pull, and it still makes no sense to me. I also stated and SK 100B build in spvp is fine. This thread is about one skill that is out of place. I could state simply that for the benefit it is in too low a tier.

As far as a thief’s complaint. I fought someone using this build yesterday on my thief DD ( I do not play DP on thief it is OP imho). He didn’t kill me but his sustained (Dmg & healing) was too high to really touch him safely. I disengaged which is always an option. End of story.

Death shroud still lasts longer than our stuns combined and is available no matter what build, all thief weapons have a stealth attack and to make it crit is always a bonus. There is no boon or skill that can remove those abilities. A thief is in stealth it won’t lose it easily, necro can’t lose it until they decide to end it. Stuns don’t work with stability or if you have a stun breaker their effectiveness is seriously dropped. This trait has been here since the start so I can’t see how all of a sudden it’s OP when for the past year almost it was fine.

TheGuy.3568:

snip

You look at the trait on its own and its synergy with other traits the warrior has then look at how the trait performs in the present/current popular builds.

Your suggestion was to move unsuspecting foe to GM compared it to hidden killer and deathly perception but offered no replacement trait unless I missed that part in your post.

So your your OP is basically the trait is strong lets move it to GM I am not concerned about what replaces the trait at adept at all.

Comparing the traits that are similar to another class just ends up in a round and round discussion that never ends. You take X trait compare to Y trait then someone can counter with why X trait is where it is at on that class then insert a long list of variables because X class with X trait plays totally different than Y class and usually has a different playstyle than Y class.

There are alot of crit chance traits that activate under certain circumstances that are adept for many classes. Ele’s crit chance multiplier is zephyrs boon and it is adept it doesn’t add 50% but gives you 20% so in a sense it serves the same purpose so that you can sacrifice critical chance. Now I just brought a ele into the picture and then with it comes a whole bunch of variables to its playstyle.

So if we look at the trait just on its own merit and how it affects the builds that warrior currently has moving it to GM will kill certain builds.

Unsuspecting foe moved to GM means a tanky support type hammer build warrior would then have to put 30 points into arms. So they are left with 40 left over we all know 30 of those are probably going into tactics. So 10 left over to put into defense? Then they wont have adrenal health, merciless hammer, cleansing ire, last stand, or can’t reach defy pain(which would be good on a warrior with so much HP).

Moving it to 30 in arms really wont do much for anyone specced damage anyway they can still reach the trait and still have good damage. So I wouldn’t base moving it jsut because of the skullcrack build all you are doing is giving them more critical chance and -100 tougness (if they went 30 defense) and less critical damage which just means they put on more zerker or more valk gear.

It would just turn into 0/30/20/0/20. I run 30 defense anyway I would lose last stand that would be the only important trait I would lose if it moved to GM.

The trait is in the critical chance line so you don’t have to go all the way 30 points in which would defeat the purpose of the trait. So why not just leave it at adept so that tanky, bunker type builds have access to some damage they benefit from the trait more than a valk, zerker (cav trinket) warrior does.

I’m completely fine with it, as long as you move several other traits to grand-master as well from other classes.

Like Incendiary Powder… that is an amazing minor trait. Should be a Grandmaster IMO. I mean the Necromancer version is, why stop there?

Wuflric Glacius.2078:

Death shroud still lasts longer than our stuns combined and is available no matter what build, all thief weapons have a stealth attack and to make it crit is always a bonus. There is no boon or skill that can remove those abilities. A thief is in stealth it won’t lose it easily, necro can’t lose it until they decide to end it. Stuns don’t work with stability or if you have a stun breaker their effectiveness is seriously dropped. This trait has been here since the start so I can’t see how all of a sudden it’s OP when for the past year almost it was fine.

+1 Wulfric
The arguments made so far are just an obvious attempt to sabotage a particular build. The comparisons made with necro and thief abilities attempt to add a weak veneer of logic to it, but they are so flawed it hurts to read.

The warrior ability is obviously the weakest of the three. Multiple reasons have been presented. The fact that the warrior trait is dependent on weapon set, not so with thief or necro. The ability to negate its effect by the target, Wulfric pointed out how only the warrior has to worry about this. And a last point that I would like to make, only the warrior is limited on what target choice they get to use the bonus crit to. Necros can simply blanket crits on any target they choose, and thief can invis and get a guaranteed crit on any target in range. Warr are limited in using their bonus crit on the single target suffering from the cc, no flexibility and very predictable.

Who is this Unsuspecting Foe and why he deserve to be a GM ? I think only devs can make a GM ! ( DUMB ? SAME AS THE TOPIC RIGHT ? )

Defektive.7283:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Right now Warriors are pretty much required to run either 0/20/20/0/30 or 0/10/30/0/30 if they want to run CC.

Actually, they just need 10 points in precision for a CC build.

And no other trait points have to be used, just those 10. The trait is THAT OP.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Defektive.7283:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Right now Warriors are pretty much required to run either 0/20/20/0/30 or 0/10/30/0/30 if they want to run CC.

Actually, they just need 10 points in precision for a CC build.

And no other trait points have to be used, just those 10. The trait is THAT OP.

For a stun build to be effective yes. Because it’s the one trait that lets you build out any number of ways and still have respectable DPS.

Defektive.7283:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Defektive.7283:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Right now Warriors are pretty much required to run either 0/20/20/0/30 or 0/10/30/0/30 if they want to run CC.

Actually, they just need 10 points in precision for a CC build.

And no other trait points have to be used, just those 10. The trait is THAT OP.

For a stun build to be effective yes. Because it’s the one trait that lets you build out any number of ways and still have respectable DPS.

I was being sarcastic…but yes it is basically a required trait if you want to run CC. While you’re here I’ll ask you this, with the proposed changes do you think your team would want you running CC because it seems like any sort of move is going to force you further into a tree focused on condition damage which means in my case I’d probably run something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQRApe8ZjkOpwBPGPMxBAkCsq68IppUSpYO7A-TwAA1CnICSFkLITQygsBNIYRwGiJCA

Which makes me some strange CC+Bleed stack hybrid that can’t use its CC as often. Or if I didn’t go 30 into arms and keep either 0/20/20/0/30 or 0/10/30/0/30, it means I can CC more but will have really low DPS and would basically only be there for the sole purpose of CC and would probably never kill anything. Or perhaps I go 0/30/10/0/30 and have both but then I lack Cleansing Ire and will be significantly more vulnerable to the very condition dealers I’m supposed to be countering. Would think that your team would still be happy with any of these builds?

I know I’m loading the question a bit but I just don’t see any winning situation unless it got a big buff in the move like making it also work with immobilize.

I would still run CC, I’d just go glassier and pick up where I lost out on crit chance.

My team doesn’t care that I have +50% crit chance, they care if I can land a 4 second stun when they need it.

Nerfing us into uselessness right after we finally gained some usefullness in the current meta…

Must be another guy who wants warriors to go back to being free kills, nothing to see here, move along.

Well, there’s a difference:

Necro and Thief traits depend on effects applied to the player. This means that I can benefit from those traits on any enemy, once the conditions for them to work are met.

Unsuspecting Foe is supposed to reward you for landing a certain kind of skill, which is supposed to be hard to apply and easily avoidable.
And it works only on stunned targets. To make it work, I have to use it only on stunned targets, which will mostly be one. It won’t increase my cleave capabilities, in a game where AoE is consistent and much superior to single-target.

About the control+damage issue: hammer+mace/shield has high cc, but without consistent damage it would be extremely lacking, because it lacks mobility. In a game where almost any skill can be cast while moving, this might mean almost not being able to reach your target.

And… well, I played engi turret, and it pairs good survivability, cc and damage (in 1v1 fights on nodes), but low mobility.

Defektive’s build, IMHO, has good damage, but most of all has high mobility. Hammer mace/shield has higher damage but no mobility, thus making it less efficient.

So… it isn’t necessarily unbalanced.

TheGuy.3568:

QQ post

Here’s a fun story for you TheGuy.3568, I hope you learn something from it.
When I first hit lvl 80 on my warrior I didn’t use any condition removal foods, shouts, or anything of the sort. Once the meta of ‘lol condi spam’ became popular, I didn’t complain on the forums that x-y-z traits / builds were OP, I just respecced completely to not only be able to fend off conditions (via healing shouts), but also be able to resist direct damage, yet have decent dps output (via a combo of pvt / knights / zerker gear.)

This build that I came up with didn’t just come together instantly, it took thought and planning for it to come together. I don’t follow anyone’s builds on the forums because I like to figure out my own builds / playstyles. So if you’re telling me that just because you don’t want to respec to better handle CC builds so your idea is just to try and complain about it as much as possible hoping that the devs will listen to you then all I have to say is L2P.

At this point this is my only rebuttal for you and all the other whiners about our CC build since you just won’t accept that it has plenty of counters: