Guild Wars 2

This is open to all classes, all viewpoints and such. I’m kind of curious as to whether there is a general consensus as to what is overpowered about warriors, and at what point they would be considered “balanced” by light and medium armor class mains for PVP (because in WVW food means idc.).

Is there already a general list as to what needs to be toned down/scaled up for them that is largely accepted?

Edit: So far, there is general agreement that:

Cleansing Ire should not be a guaranteed proc on Combustive shot drop

Any arguments to the contrary are welcome.

Edit: In light of the recent buffs, I have reconsidered the CI/longbow synergy in the face of Mesmers now having torment as a ranged weapon, personally.

Far as I can tell, you can make a warrior that has low condition duration, very high damage, heavy high health, very good regen, and very high armor. Maybe lower some of that?

Guess I could be more specific. OK:

Running zerker I can usually tell when someone’s running bunker setup or not. I’ve encountered warriors in the field that are somewhere in the middle, but their massive health pool and innate regen keep them above 75% even as I’m wailing on them with my heavy-hitting moves. They have enough condi-cleanse to ignore the ticks they do get, and with CI are able to clear them fairly regularly. Their CC also allows single characters to hold points from multiple attackers, which when paired with their innate regen and condi-cleanse become a bit of a pain to handle.

What else…

We as a class have access to way more immunities than we should. Traited right we get two sets of 5-sec damage immunity, 10-sec condi immunity, 10-sec CC immunity (20 if we’re running Last Stand but nobody takes that over CI), and if we’re using Defiant Stance we can facetank for ~4sec without giving a single kitten . Tho most don’t since HS does most of that work for us.

Daniel Warren.4968:

Far as I can tell, you can make a warrior that has low condition duration, very high damage, heavy high health, very good regen, and very high armor. Maybe lower some of that?

Where would you start?

They have one of the highest base HP’s in the game to begin with, so that’s a thing.

Editing for response:

Would it be better if Warriors had:

*Less condi clear

*Less immunity ticks?

Should there be a cooldown decrease for slotted immunity skills?

Should we not be able to facetank? where would you begin toning things down, without going so far as to make the class a sandbag?

I understand you believe warriors have access to way more than they should, but how far should they be cut back to be “not overpowered?”

‘a pain’ is not synonymous with overpowered, mind you.

You could always bring the other professions up to par with the warrior. It doesn’t always have to be a nerf you know. :P

yolo swaggins.2570:

You could always bring the other professions up to par with the warrior. It doesn’t always have to be a nerf you know. :P

Inb4 POWERCREEP NOOOOOOOO.

I’d say fix longbow so it does not proc CI unless you hit with the initial attack and warrior is totally fine.

How about CI procs every 10 seconds. 1 per 10% lost in life points?
No longer tied to longbow and supports defense trait line.

It’s really hard to say that there’s ONE thing that needs tweaking. I mean, we could just go “eh our base HP is too high, lets bring that down to the others’ levels” and call it a day, but that’d be cheating us out of actual balancing.

What I’ve seen in pvp and wvw is a tendency for warriors to max their pvt and minimize their condi duration, paired with the right traits to fill any vulnerabilities in precision and healing. The utility slots are filled with the right immunity boosts or signets to prevent condition overload, and with the aforementioned PVT setup they don’t have to worry about burst sustain. Geared with the right weapons (usually hammer and something else) we become a one-man wrecking crew, which granted is what warriors are supposed to do, but when it takes three people constantly bashing one guy who’s running HS and hammer you start to wonder if there’s something amiss here.

Personally I’d get rid of Defy Pain on the Defense tree, rework CI to proc less often, and knock a chunk out of our base HP so we’re not so much of a damage sponge. Maybe change the longbow burst so it doesn’t give adrenaline for people standing in your fire field. If we want to stay viable as a class and not so much of a joke / faceroll type, we need more weaknesses.

ShakeyStorm.7180:

How about CI procs every 10 seconds. 1 per 10% lost in life points?
No longer tied to longbow and supports defense trait line.

What do mean with 1 per 10% in life points?

So I’m basically for that CI gets an internal CD but it will be passed on as a back ground cleanse. Now you can build around CI and clean 1, 2 or 3 depending on what you aim for and how good you play. That will dissapear somewhat and you will basically only remove 3 conditions every 10 seconds. Question is if that won’t be even more powerful. As it is now 70% of the time I remove 1 or 2 condis and not 3. With an internal CD it will always be 3. I think that the LB is the real thief in this tbh. Fix that instead, or atleast first.

HS is too much. Nerf it to 200/s and upp the active to 7K, I’d still use it. Thing is we allready have the highest hp in game. And alot of armor. Even though our playstyle is self destructive it’s too much. I think HS and LB should fixed and it would be fine.

Gamgee.8612:

HS is too much. Nerf it to 200/s and upp the active to 7K, I’d still use it.

You would be a free lootbag.

Cygnus.6903:

Gamgee.8612:

HS is too much. Nerf it to 200/s and upp the active to 7K, I’d still use it.

You would be a free lootbag.

I would not. Sadly I can’t prove it..

Nah, Healing Signet’s passive base value could probably use a bit of a nerf, but that should be compensated for with increased scaling with Healing Power. Regardless, dropping it to 200 HP/sec is not a good move.

Fix the Longbow/CI interaction and Warrior should be good. Might even see some small buffs after that.

Daniel Warren.4968:

Far as I can tell, you can make a warrior that has low condition duration, very high damage, heavy high health, very good regen, and very high armor. Maybe lower some of that?

Guess I could be more specific. OK:

Running zerker I can usually tell when someone’s running bunker setup or not. I’ve encountered warriors in the field that are somewhere in the middle, but their massive health pool and innate regen keep them above 75% even as I’m wailing on them with my heavy-hitting moves. They have enough condi-cleanse to ignore the ticks they do get, and with CI are able to clear them fairly regularly. Their CC also allows single characters to hold points from multiple attackers, which when paired with their innate regen and condi-cleanse become a bit of a pain to handle.

What else…

We as a class have access to way more immunities than we should. Traited right we get two sets of 5-sec damage immunity, 10-sec condi immunity, 10-sec CC immunity (20 if we’re running Last Stand but nobody takes that over CI), and if we’re using Defiant Stance we can facetank for ~4sec without giving a single kitten . Tho most don’t since HS does most of that work for us.

CI is getting nerfed because of the addrenaline change is it not?

nicknamenick.2437:

Gamgee.8612:

Cygnus.6903:

Gamgee.8612:

HS is too much. Nerf it to 200/s and upp the active to 7K, I’d still use it.

You would be a free lootbag.

I would not. Sadly I can’t prove it..

You dont need to prove it because an entire warrior population already proved it over 1 year ago.. when signet was indeed 200hps.
And they will never improve active to 7k… if you have that with signet master it will even stronger.

7000 / 16 (signet master) = 437 hps..
it will be a mindless heal skill spam..

Edit: and i like the mindless no activate healing skill :-)

I know it was. I said I can’t prove that I won’t be a free lootbag. I never was a “free lootbag”. Warrior was not in a good state back then I agree but at least you couldn’t be both tanky and deepsy. Either you went full damage and hoped not to die before you could kill or you went full tank. Now you can do both, only thanks to HS. Ok 200 is a bit over the top but I exaggerated a bit to make a point.

Alright, so so far, it appears that the foremost, if not only thing that should be addressed is:

Cleansing Ire should not be a guaranteed proc on Combustive shot drop

with some people thinking the warrior would be in a good place then.

I’m still on the fence about signet. 200-280 seems a bit low, unless it scales heavily with healing power, so more input on that would be nice. It should be scaling with healing power now, but it seems to be at a “begrudgingly accepted as tolerable” level as regards balance, which is fine considering it was looked at and the recent nerf was deemed to be reasonable.

With the CI/Longbow synergy cut a bit, would Warriors be in a good spot? Or is there something else that needs to be changed?

On the topic of small buffs, I’d like to see one to raw sword damage, but only tentatively.
I’d also like to see mace made a viable choice for pvp/wvw, personally.

Thanks for the civil discussion, also. Normally any mention of ‘warriors’ and ‘balance’ in the same sentence causes waves of fear from people who use the playstyles affected.

I’d say after CI/Combustive Shot interaction gets changed, the Warrior could use some small buffs. Perhaps a buff to Mending’s base heal to make it more attractive as it is (and can be traited to be better) a very good condi cleanse, but usually isn’t worth losing the high healing amount from healing signet.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I’d say after CI/Combustive Shot interaction gets changed, the Warrior could use some small buffs. Perhaps a buff to Mending’s heal to make it more attractive as it is (and can be traited to be better) a very good condi cleanse, but usually isn’t worth losing the high healing amount from healing signet.

That’s reasonable. Right now I’d say HS isn’t so much overpowered as it is less situational than mending or defiant stance. I’d be more compelled to run those in WVW or PVP if they were more usable in cases where you were not damage or condibombed.

It’s pretty rare that I see any warriors in pvp using anything BUT HS nowadays. That either says the heal is just that good compared to other heals, or it’s our crutch for sustain. Maybe it needs a nerf, or maybe it’s our HP / Armor in combination with HS.

Course this all hinges on Anet actually testing these things, but maybe they don’t play the way we do?

I don’t play my warrior much but it seems to me the only way people will be happy is if the Warrior is a free kill in PvP and insta downed in PVE from boss attacks, people wouldn’t be happy even if they nerfed Warrior HP, healing, dmg and armor. Which is sad, people would rather see nerfs than everyone else getting buffed, to me warriors are how classes should all be, capable of doing anything if speced for it.

Sunshine.4680:

I don’t play my warrior much but it seems to me the only way people will be happy is if the Warrior is a free kill in PvP and insta downed in PVE from boss attacks, people wouldn’t be happy even if they nerfed Warrior HP, healing, dmg and armor. Which is sad, people would rather see nerfs than everyone else getting buffed, to me warriors are how classes should all be, capable of doing anything if speced for it.

I would put Guardians as the ideal balance point. They are capable of doing anything (minus a viable condition build) if specced for it, but they have to spec for it. Warriors can do a lot of things in a single spec, which is the real source of complaints. The typical Hambow build is high durability, high control, high power, high condition damage, high sustain…all at the same time.

It’s not so much being capable of doing anything, when spec’ed right we’re capable of doing everything:

High HP with good regen
Instant condi-cleanse on short cooldowns
Crowd control and area denial for point capture
Multiple damage immunities
High base damage and armor

You should be able to spec to do anything, but there should be downsides to it. As it stands, we’re not seeing downsides.

nicknamenick.2437:

IF:

Cleansing Ire should not be a guaranteed proc on Combustive shot drop

Then:

make ALL burst skills the same!
So all have 600 leap
So all have same damage
So all cleaves/Aoe
So all are 1/2 sec casttime (also kill shot)

I mean if you want F1 be the same for all weapons you SHOULD also adress this problem.

what problem?

We don’t want all F1’s to be the same. We’d just like their burst skills to require doing damage to proc CI. How they go about doing that can be varied.

If a warrior cannot just pull out a bow and reset his condis, then he’ll be forced to endure them for the duration, spec to clear them sooner at the cost of less damage output, or ensure his burst hits.

all of which are issues that could assist with the “warrior is good at everything at once” complaint.

If the only thing hanging up Warriors as being OP is the easy reset with the bow, just change it and call it a night.

Why not just remove longbow’s burst and add a “health burst” that instantly refills your HP and removes all conditions by shooting yourself in the face?

Daniel Warren.4968:

Why not just remove longbow’s burst and add a “health burst” that instantly refills your HP and removes all conditions by shooting yourself in the face?

You mean do absolutely nothing to LB burst?

Sure let’s do it.

I wonder if it’s possible to proc CI when someone touches the field, or if they’d have to rework the skill itself.

I’d rather it stay AOE, hopefully it wouldn’t require a skill revamp.

…how. It’s a single attack. Make it so if you fire at the ground and your bad guy isn’t standing in it you don’t get to clear conditions. Boom. I’m a wizard.

nicknamenick.2437:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

nicknamenick.2437:

IF:

Cleansing Ire should not be a guaranteed proc on Combustive shot drop

Then:

make ALL burst skills the same!
So all have 600 leap
So all have same damage
So all cleaves/Aoe
So all are 1/2 sec casttime (also kill shot)

I mean if you want F1 be the same for all weapons you SHOULD also adress this problem.

We don’t want all F1’s to be the same. We’d just like their burst skills to require doing damage to proc CI. How they go about doing that can be varied.

>??

We dont want all F1’s to be the same?

but they do have to suffer all from the same adrenaline chance right?

If you do this that atleast remake Combustive shot!

You cant give longbow the same effect if you keep it a GROUND attacked skill!!

you just CANT do that.

So now you have to remake longbow F1..
Give me any reason now to use longbow over hammer? or every other CC weapon because the reason many use longbow is the 100% CI proc so you can spend some traits also in offensive traitline..
We aint all running condibunker or warhorn in pvp or full glass hope he dies before you do builds..

many other weapon builds will suffer very hard if you chance longbow F1.

Why can’t we “just do” that?

>Target ground, any initial damage or damage from fire tick for touching the field procs CI.

Longbow still sets up for Fiery Aura, area might, burning, Pin down for immob, idunno, hitting more than one target with one of the only two ranged weapons we have?

There’s lots of things you can use LB for other than condireset.

That seems to be the issue with the builds; since Lb is 100% proc rate right now, you can clear three conditions every 10 seconds, provided you are in the fray and/or havent touched SOR.

just make it require aiming, is all I’m saying. All we’re suggesting is remove the guaranteed from an already amazing condiclear setup.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Why can’t we “just can’t” do that?

>Target ground, any initial damage or damage from fire tick for touching the field procs CI.

Longbow still sets up for Fiery Aura, area might, burning, Pin down for immob, idunno, hitting more than one target with one of the only two ranged weapons we have?

There’s lots of things you can use LB for other than condireset.

Gotta be careful about that, if its not coded right (har har) it’d result in multiple condi cleanses every time someone steps into the field. Since every other burst resolves CI when adrenaline is spent, if there’s no hit on execution it shouldn’t trigger.

Daniel Warren.4968:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Why can’t we “just can’t” do that?

>Target ground, any initial damage or damage from fire tick for touching the field procs CI.

Longbow still sets up for Fiery Aura, area might, burning, Pin down for immob, idunno, hitting more than one target with one of the only two ranged weapons we have?

There’s lots of things you can use LB for other than condireset.

Gotta be careful about that, if its not coded right (har har) it’d result in multiple condi cleanses every time someone steps into the field. Since every other burst resolves CI when adrenaline is spent, if there’s no hit on execution it shouldn’t trigger.

Just add a 5 sec cooldown to CI proc, problem solved.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Daniel Warren.4968:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Why can’t we “just can’t” do that?

>Target ground, any initial damage or damage from fire tick for touching the field procs CI.

Longbow still sets up for Fiery Aura, area might, burning, Pin down for immob, idunno, hitting more than one target with one of the only two ranged weapons we have?

There’s lots of things you can use LB for other than condireset.

Gotta be careful about that, if its not coded right (har har) it’d result in multiple condi cleanses every time someone steps into the field. Since every other burst resolves CI when adrenaline is spent, if there’s no hit on execution it shouldn’t trigger.

Just add a 5 sec cooldown to CI proc, problem solved.

Doesn’t the field last longer than 5 seconds?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Daniel Warren.4968:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Why can’t we “just can’t” do that?

>Target ground, any initial damage or damage from fire tick for touching the field procs CI.

Longbow still sets up for Fiery Aura, area might, burning, Pin down for immob, idunno, hitting more than one target with one of the only two ranged weapons we have?

There’s lots of things you can use LB for other than condireset.

Gotta be careful about that, if its not coded right (har har) it’d result in multiple condi cleanses every time someone steps into the field. Since every other burst resolves CI when adrenaline is spent, if there’s no hit on execution it shouldn’t trigger.

Just add a 5 sec cooldown to CI proc, problem solved.

Doesn’t the field last longer than 5 seconds?

My mistake, 8 seconds.

There may be some microbalancing needed here, especially if burst recharge is specced.

or they could greatly increase the speed of the projectile and just have the initial damage for being in the landing radius proc CI. that works too, imo.

nicknamenick.2437:

I think that annoying Vee Wee (he always post something like heey Vee Wee here #1 engie or something… yeah yeah Vee wee we all read it now :-)

but he made a suggestion like this:

when arrow hits your target it will creates the Aoe Field at that target
And the target issnt the ground but ofc a foe..
And ofc a different arrow that goes horizontal and faster compared to its arrow right now.

That works too.

nicknamenick.2437:

And no reply to the rest of my post??

I will take it upon myself to answer your post.

Which builds are nerfed “into the ground” except hammer/lb power?

Faster projectile is certainly an option, and could easily be considered mandatory.

Longbow isnt nerfed into the ground. We are proposing changing one skill to require you to aim. in 1v1s you can ensure that with pin down, in zergs it doesn’t matter, you’ll hit -somebody-.

You proc CI in WvW by aiming.

Not all warriors use Hammer. this suggestion will primarily affect them because they have no mobility and need to tank condis, but in WVW, you are guaranteed to hit someone if Zerg V Zerg, and in 1v1 you have Pin down and the luxury of aiming.

Again, your CI isnt going anywhere, and proccing it will still be possible. It will just require hitting an enemy. anything. Ambients even if you’re in WVW roaming.

It isnt as end-of-the-world as you think.

nicknamenick.2437:

Daniel Warren.4968:

…how. It’s a single attack. Make it so if you fire at the ground and your bad guy isn’t standing in it you don’t get to clear conditions. Boom. I’m a wizard.

WOW! what!??

So you really just do that!??

so no faster arrow or anything?
HOW THE hell do you proc CI when in WvW??

And no reply to the rest of my post?? you just now nerfed longbow into the ground for ALL wvw warriors.. kitten them you say now.

And moved the problem, because now ALL warriors use hammer

Hammer nerfed next balance patch to trash..

All warriors use Axe leap now..

So no compensation.. just nerf X and problem moved to Y

You need to smoke something dude? You seem kind of on edge.

And are you joking? WvW is a blob fest. You can fire blindfolded and hit somebody. I really don’t get what your complaint is. If you honestly cannot hit somebody with an AOE arrow attack with 1000 range and a 360 blast radius… wait are you using the burst just to cleanse conditions and sit pretty in a fire field? Cuz most other burst skills rely on hitting stuff.

I’m just gonna put this out here buuuut

Berserker’s Stance should be changed to 100% immunity from crippled, chilled, immobilized, and weaken.
Why should going berserk prevent you from being set on fire, feared, or bleeding out? I’d even go as far to say going berserk should make one bleed out faster, but I’m not that evil in the change I’d like to see.

Oh look another Warrior thread

No it isn’t strange to find one here.

It’s true warriors can have both dmg and high health and defense. My proposition is to nerf the base line of the warriors stats (HP, Power, …, ….) and in exchange the stats from gear and traits will scale better. So if you choose full berserker you get less defense and health then normal and if you build bunker you do less dmg.

Anet could also decide if they do this that the stats will scale so that you build for one spec or 2 that those stats will be higher than before (berserker does more dmg but less health and defense). So that we get more builds that are polar opposites from each other.

Do you think that this can be a solution or not?

Ps. CI/longbow will still need a nerf)

Ottohi.2871:

I’m just gonna put this out here buuuut

Berserker’s Stance should be changed to 100% immunity from crippled, chilled, immobilized, and weaken.
Why should going berserk prevent you from being set on fire, feared, or bleeding out? I’d even go as far to say going berserk should make one bleed out faster, but I’m not that evil in the change I’d like to see.

if there was only 1 condition that it made sense for a zerker rage stance to prevent that would be fear, you don’t get scared when all you can think of is killing whatever is in front of you regardless of your own safety.

Healing signet…. not nerf…. but balance….. as its still stupidly everpowered……all the active heals are around 300hps , not to mention how bad the passives are (which is good, except warrior seems to hard to play to actualy cover their heal with a CC). im speechless there isnt a 8% or rather 80% nerf this patch.

Zerker stance… a bit too long , 6s base, 8s traited… lets be honest everyone runs at least 2x stance.

Cleansing ire + bow …. dont know how to fix it so the ground learns to dodge

bow fire field… hopefuly gets small due to less adrenaline now, should be fine

Hammer…. 4x CC skils is enough, idk why tanky warrior would need weaknes on #2, trade it for a vuln.

Thats my take, the first two points are the only real part that needs attention. warior is my 3rd , as i dont enjoy it anymore because its boring and mathemticaly proven to be broken (currently, still..)

The patch makes warriors balanced.

Guess folks still don’t understand what a ground target ability is and what it means and what the target of a GROUND target ability is.

The problem is that warriors have only one viable build in spvp (hambow). If there was a way I could go axe/mace or sword/sword and not get wrecked by the axis of evil (necro, mesmer, engi) I would. But seeing as how warriors have limited condi removal in spvp we don’t have a lot of options.

DrMundo.2896:

The problem is that warriors have only one viable build in spvp (hambow). If there was a way I could go axe/mace or sword/sword and not get wrecked by the axis of evil (necro, mesmer, engi) I would. But seeing as how warriors have limited condi removal in spvp we don’t have a lot of options.

You have the options for great condi removal, even ignoring CI. The fact that you don’t like said options is irrelevant to having them.

The thing is, if you want to defend against conditions, you have to sacrifice somewhere else. Just like everyone else.

And yes, necros also have to make a sacrifice, as they give up most of their ability to defend against CC (no Vigor, evade skills, or blocks, very very little stability, and death shroud doesn’t help).

troll thread for bad players of other classes to “discuss” how they want to nerf another class.

In game where thief is a ultra heavy duty double duty evasion tank, plenty of stuff to fix first

dooger.2640:

troll thread for bad players of other classes to “discuss” how they want to nerf another class.

In game where thief is a ultra heavy duty double duty evasion tank, plenty of stuff to fix first

Hello pot, meet kettle.

This thread is a valid one. the only non-ridiculous suggestion so far is require bow to tag with comb. shot for CI.

And even then, as was previously stated, the target is the -ground- and we dont have any other multi target ranged weapons anyway, so…

Might just look the other way on that too.

DrMundo.2896:

The problem is that warriors have only one viable build in spvp (hambow). If there was a way I could go axe/mace or sword/sword and not get wrecked by the axis of evil (necro, mesmer, engi) I would. But seeing as how warriors have limited condi removal in spvp we don’t have a lot of options.

Limited condi removal:

shrug it off
shake it off
Trooper runes (which turns FGJ/fearme/OMM into condi removal)
Melandru runes

There’s lots of condi clear. There isnt much condi clear that lets you build full cc spec but the options are there.

nerf healing signet.

Nerf the Nerf posts.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

This is open to all classes, all viewpoints and such. I’m kind of curious as to whether there is a general consensus as to what is overpowered about warriors, and at what point they would be considered “balanced” by light and medium armor class mains for PVP (because in WVW food means idc.).

Is there already a general list as to what needs to be toned down/scaled up for them that is largely accepted?

Edit: So far, there is general agreement that:

Cleansing Ire should not be a guaranteed proc on Combustive shot drop

Any arguments to the contrary are welcome.

Give me a valid reason why it shouldn’t proc on use? Because you don’t like the warrior to clean their conditions?

I think warrior tends to be a low skill cap class that is easy to pick up and be effective with at the lower rungs of sPvP, but as you progress against tougher opponents, it becomes much more difficult to use. You may soon realize that warrior, despite some amazing defensive utility skills, is actually a bit of a stick in the mud and after cooldowns are exhausted, it will be focus targeted a la necro.

If any GW1 players recall the original Defy Pain nerf, seems it was mainly due to it’s stalling nature because lower rung players didn’t understand how to counter the skill. More experienced players understood there were a number of counters and probably didn’t gripe too much.. at least until it was nerfed. I think warrior as a class is in a similar boat here. The class is easy to pick up and use, the lesser PvPers don’t understand how to deal with it and therefor it’s unbalanced. I just hope the developers share my point of view.

xbutcherx.3861:

Give me a valid reason why it shouldn’t proc on use? Because you don’t like the warrior to clean their conditions?

howzabout…
Condi removal was the major intended weakness of the warrior class, now no longer a weakness?

i hear thieves were also supposed to be Squishy McBurst and mesmers were originally intended to work.