Guild Wars 2

Just make so that if a thief misses his back stab because of: block, blind, agesis, invulnerability then back stab goes on cooldown of 8 seconds. Thief would not be revealed so they wouldn’t lose their mechanic of stealth but they would lose out on their big burst do to bad playing. They also would not be able to use Back stab the very next 3 second stealth window which would force them onto some actual counter play.

The 8 seconds is just a number and could be raised or lowered of course

Binary Rain.4869

Taking this small part….. what about having a 1-initiative cost to do the stealthed skill, if failed then we wasted an initiative, if hit we get that 1-initiative back? I still say forcing a stealth drop on that would be a bit extreme, but this allows room for good gameplay along with punishing a thief for trying to backstab spam through a warrior’s block. Also this way we can still get past a gaurdian’s initial aegis or a blind.

That suggestion doesn’t address the issue being discussed here. The issue is that thieves can spam a 0-cost, high damage, no cool down skill until it is guaranteed to hit, all while remaining in stealth. Some part of that needs to change, and a 1-initiative cost is not enough.

So, we could either increase the cost of stealth skills (to 4-5 initiative, depending on the skill – non “refundable”), or we could add a cool down to stealth skills (5-10 seconds, gets reset when you reapply stealth), or you get revealed, as previously suggested.

If you think Thief will ever be balanced against other classes you’re in for a rude surprise.

Binary Rain.4869:

Seeing how I might be one of the only thieves to view into the Warrior profession….
Let me try to put this in perspective for your class: would you want to lose all your adrenaline when your F1 ability is blocked? That, I think, would be a terrible mechanic. Same thing for thief, if something as simple as blocking gives us a revealed debuff would just about completely mitigate our stealth.

Shield stance lasts 3 seconds, throwing it up should out last the stealth anyways, so thus no backstab unless they chain stealths. Also if your threw it up too early and you see the ‘Block’ while the thief is invisible turn around: he is most likely right there, and start swinging. If he is spamming 1 you will take half damage, and already dished out some to him.

As a person who plays Warrior as well as a few other classes, I am totally fine with losing or “using up” my adrenaline when I miss an attack IF they make Thieves reveal when I they use an ATTACK SKILL (they can remain stealthed if they use a mobility skill or any other type) in stealth.

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

Uhm, thats not what I am talking about, but nevermind.^^

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

It’s called there’s a shield in my face and you were dumb enough to swing at it. Or, ya know, aegis…

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

It’s called: if you see the thief stealth, run the opposite direction, count to two-three nd raise the shield. You should be able to wait the thief out of stealth then, right?

Player Character.9467:

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

It’s called there’s a shield in my face and you were dumb enough to swing at it. Or, ya know, aegis…

It’s called most of the time those attacks are made from behind the enemy, while
his shield is in front of him. This thread is about the shield, not aegis.

And btw, since it doesn’t reveal the thief, it’s not dumb to swing at the shield. =P

How about a compromise? Attacks from stealth are unblockable, which would
then result into a revealed thief. It’s just legit, and fair, especially when warriors
have a block which can reflect projectiles on such a short cooldown, it makes
even an guardian look like nothing. And then we can talk about real balance!
Let’s make the compromise even better for the poor warriors, it’s only unblockable
when the thief is attacking them from the side or from behind. It would promote
skillful play on both sides. Warriors have to use corners to fully defend themselves
and thieves need to run around them. Isn’t that the kind of positioning everybody wants?

I like Cyhann’s idea.

Sure lets give Thieves an unblockable backstab. Absolute genius.

Lets get something straight, Thieves need nerfs not buffs. If everyone at Anet tried a profession other than Thief then maybe they’d stop making the game revolve around them.

Unblockable? on guaranteed crits? thieves would then just stealth, backstab, shadowstep away, wait out reveal, stealth, backstab, repeat.

Cyhann.2609:

And btw, since it doesn’t reveal the thief, it’s not dumb to swing at the shield. =P

It is dumb by the mechanics governing any other class in the entire game. The ones that punish you for doing dumb things at dumb times, like during highly telegraphed animations. Burst dps skills shouldn’t sit on 0cd 0cost, spam until it goes off.

Cyhann.2609:

Player Character.9467:

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

It’s called there’s a shield in my face and you were dumb enough to swing at it. Or, ya know, aegis…

It’s called most of the time those attacks are made from behind the enemy, while
his shield is in front of him. This thread is about the shield, not aegis.

And btw, since it doesn’t reveal the thief, it’s not dumb to swing at the shield. =P

How about a compromise? Attacks from stealth are unblockable, which would
then result into a revealed thief. It’s just legit, and fair, especially when warriors
have a block which can reflect projectiles on such a short cooldown, it makes
even an guardian look like nothing. And then we can talk about real balance!
Let’s make the compromise even better for the poor warriors, it’s only unblockable
when the thief is attacking them from the side or from behind. It would promote
skillful play on both sides. Warriors have to use corners to fully defend themselves
and thieves need to run around them. Isn’t that the kind of positioning everybody wants?

If we are going to approach things with this kind of view, then thief should not be invisible in stealth and rely on the enviorement to not be seen, stealth is a broken mechanic in its core, but some games made it kind of fair, while in gw2 is cheap.

Funny how people nowadays take everything seriously, even if it’s not
written in a serious manner at all.^^ But whatever, now since this thread
is actually a “nerf the thief even more” thread, it actually should be made in
the thief forum, after all warrior isn’t the only class who has the ability to
block, but since there actually are people who would oppose the idea it seems
that they now have resorted to the warrior forums, since the majority of the
pvpers would only lurk here, it they actually use a warrior in pvp. There aren’t
much other reasons to do it after all. Nice move I guess!~

Dolan.3071:

Lets get something straight, Thieves need nerfs not buffs.

Dolan pls: Thief Nerfs 2.0

Also if thieves are so strong, why are there so many teams without them?

And, now to the point, I actually wanted to talk all the the time about:

Even if my proposed “buff” would be implemented, it wouldn’t change too
much, same thing with the “nerf” this thread is about. If you have been loosing
too those thieves, you still will be losing, if you have been winning, it would be
a little easier, but in the end the outcome is the same, the only thing it would
change some of those real close battles, and only then if the thief uses attacks
from stealth and the warrior then decides to use his #5 skill with his shield.

To be honest, I didn’t even notice that blocks don’t reveal me, but that doesn’t
really matter since I only use stealth for condition removal, which means I wait
for the stealths duration to end, but meh, I wouldn’t care less if this litte “buff”
would given to the warriors, since they wouldn’t do any better in pvp.

tl;dr: This thread is actually pointless, since the problem with warriors and
thieves lies elsewhere, but thanks for the fun!~

Fenrir.5493:

If we are going to approach things with this kind of view, then thief should not be invisible in stealth and rely on the enviorement to not be seen, stealth is a broken mechanic in its core, but some games made it kind of fair, while in gw2 is cheap.

+1

I’ve been saying this forever. Use the terrain.

listen,

I have 80s of all characters, the three I focus the most is thief, warrior and guardian. The fix for it has nothing to do with stealth itself, if sneak attack misses or is blocked, it should simply be put on a timer (cooldown). If we were talking about taking away stealth duration and giving thieves a toggle, id say pop them from stealth. Also, I still think they have the thief various builds one sided, all melee backstabbish. They semi wrecked thieves shortbow, they refuse to focus on fixing pistol/pistol, pistol/dagger builds, condition builds lack the umph with all the condition cleansers.

So taking away the thieves survivability isn’t the whole answer, correcting the damage of these abilities that kill you is.

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

Player Character.9467:

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

It’s called there’s a shield in my face and you were dumb enough to swing at it. Or, ya know, aegis…

It’s called most of the time those attacks are made from behind the enemy, while
his shield is in front of him. This thread is about the shield, not aegis.

And btw, since it doesn’t reveal the thief, it’s not dumb to swing at the shield. =P

How about a compromise? Attacks from stealth are unblockable, which would
then result into a revealed thief. It’s just legit, and fair, especially when warriors
have a block which can reflect projectiles on such a short cooldown, it makes
even an guardian look like nothing. And then we can talk about real balance!
Let’s make the compromise even better for the poor warriors, it’s only unblockable
when the thief is attacking them from the side or from behind. It would promote
skillful play on both sides. Warriors have to use corners to fully defend themselves
and thieves need to run around them. Isn’t that the kind of positioning everybody wants?

If we are going to approach things with this kind of view, then thief should not be invisible in stealth and rely on the enviorement to not be seen, stealth is a broken mechanic in its core, but some games made it kind of fair, while in gw2 is cheap.

its called permastealth, a stealth toggle, its called installing collision. The problem is, stealth itself doesnt produce numbers, the ability from stealth does, fix those abilities. there are many ways to fix thieves, I just dont believe anet is even worried about it.

It doesn’t bother me, I still don’t have a problem with stealth.

I don’t really want them to look at stuff like this. Developers may get it in their head that I should loose adrenaline on a miss. People are asking for stealth to be revealed even on a miss and I don’t care to have stuff like this messed with because it could carry over onto my warrior.

folly dragon.4126:

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

Player Character.9467:

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

It’s called there’s a shield in my face and you were dumb enough to swing at it. Or, ya know, aegis…

It’s called most of the time those attacks are made from behind the enemy, while
his shield is in front of him. This thread is about the shield, not aegis.

And btw, since it doesn’t reveal the thief, it’s not dumb to swing at the shield. =P

How about a compromise? Attacks from stealth are unblockable, which would
then result into a revealed thief. It’s just legit, and fair, especially when warriors
have a block which can reflect projectiles on such a short cooldown, it makes
even an guardian look like nothing. And then we can talk about real balance!
Let’s make the compromise even better for the poor warriors, it’s only unblockable
when the thief is attacking them from the side or from behind. It would promote
skillful play on both sides. Warriors have to use corners to fully defend themselves
and thieves need to run around them. Isn’t that the kind of positioning everybody wants?

If we are going to approach things with this kind of view, then thief should not be invisible in stealth and rely on the enviorement to not be seen, stealth is a broken mechanic in its core, but some games made it kind of fair, while in gw2 is cheap.

its called permastealth, a stealth toggle, its called installing collision. The problem is, stealth itself doesnt produce numbers, the ability from stealth does, fix those abilities. there are many ways to fix thieves, I just dont believe anet is even worried about it.

I know, they balance the game around thieves… the only time i saw a dev in pvp it was using a thief…

folly dragon.4126:

listen,

I have 80s of all characters, the three I focus the most is thief, warrior and guardian. The fix for it has nothing to do with stealth itself, if sneak attack misses or is blocked, it should simply be put on a timer (cooldown). If we were talking about taking away stealth duration and giving thieves a toggle, id say pop them from stealth. Also, I still think they have the thief various builds one sided, all melee backstabbish. They semi wrecked thieves shortbow, they refuse to focus on fixing pistol/pistol, pistol/dagger builds, condition builds lack the umph with all the condition cleansers.

So taking away the thieves survivability isn’t the whole answer, correcting the damage of these abilities that kill you is.

Put abilities in a cd so the thief can not spam them from stealth is a good idea but i doubt it will be implemented.

Currently thieves can spam their most powerfull abilities with no risk, i remember when i played wow, when rogue had to get combo points to use their very hurting key abilities, that was a mechanic to prevent this spam madness that happens in here, but i guess the guys at arena net lack of that common sense, or simply just main thieves.

redslion.9675:

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

It’s called: if you see the thief stealth, run the opposite direction, count to two-three nd raise the shield. You should be able to wait the thief out of stealth then, right?

You’re so clever! None of us ever thought about that!

Oh wait, no this is pretty much exactly what we do.

The problem is, just waiting out a stealth timer is MEANINGLESS.

I will explain. When the stealth timer just ends, there is no revealed debuff. So waiting out the stealth does nothing, all the thief has to do is immediately CnD or Smoke field+Leap again for instant restealth and now Backstab time with shield stance on CD.

stof.9341:

XII.9401:

What kind of game allows you to use abilities or get hit during stealth and not get revealed?

DotA

You’ve played a very different DotA than me then, because attacking did break stealth.
Besides, DotA had actual anti-stealth mechanics, unlike GW2. Dust and the true sight gem.

Velron.3729:

redslion.9675:

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

It’s called: if you see the thief stealth, run the opposite direction, count to two-three nd raise the shield. You should be able to wait the thief out of stealth then, right?

You’re so clever! None of us ever thought about that!

Oh wait, no this is pretty much exactly what we do.

The problem is, just waiting out a stealth timer is MEANINGLESS.

I will explain. When the stealth timer just ends, there is no revealed debuff. So waiting out the stealth does nothing, all the thief has to do is immediately CnD or Smoke field+Leap again for instant restealth and now Backstab time with shield stance on CD.

Or you could shield bash to eviscerate and using the +50% crit chance on stunned foes and get a guaranteed crit taking at least a 3/4 chunk out of their health.

TheLazyOne.8509:

stof.9341:

XII.9401:

What kind of game allows you to use abilities or get hit during stealth and not get revealed?

DotA

You’ve played a very different DotA than me then, because attacking did break stealth.
Besides, DotA had actual anti-stealth mechanics, unlike GW2. Dust and the true sight gem.

I already explained. There’s forms of Stealth in DotA that do not break on ability usage. There’s ALSO a couple stealths that don’t break on attacks. Also, every single stealths remains active while you apply aura damage like Radiance.

Maugetarr.6823:

Velron.3729:

redslion.9675:

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

It’s called: if you see the thief stealth, run the opposite direction, count to two-three nd raise the shield. You should be able to wait the thief out of stealth then, right?

You’re so clever! None of us ever thought about that!

Oh wait, no this is pretty much exactly what we do.

The problem is, just waiting out a stealth timer is MEANINGLESS.

I will explain. When the stealth timer just ends, there is no revealed debuff. So waiting out the stealth does nothing, all the thief has to do is immediately CnD or Smoke field+Leap again for instant restealth and now Backstab time with shield stance on CD.

Or you could shield bash to eviscerate and using the +50% crit chance on stunned foes and get a guaranteed crit taking at least a 3/4 chunk out of their health.

How do you Shield Bash something that’s over 900 yards away?
Also no one runs crappy Berserker MH Axe builds anymore, not to any degree of success against competent players anyway.

Dolan.3071:

Maugetarr.6823:

Velron.3729:

redslion.9675:

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

It’s called: if you see the thief stealth, run the opposite direction, count to two-three nd raise the shield. You should be able to wait the thief out of stealth then, right?

You’re so clever! None of us ever thought about that!

Oh wait, no this is pretty much exactly what we do.

The problem is, just waiting out a stealth timer is MEANINGLESS.

I will explain. When the stealth timer just ends, there is no revealed debuff. So waiting out the stealth does nothing, all the thief has to do is immediately CnD or Smoke field+Leap again for instant restealth and now Backstab time with shield stance on CD.

Or you could shield bash to eviscerate and using the +50% crit chance on stunned foes and get a guaranteed crit taking at least a 3/4 chunk out of their health.

How do you Shield Bash something that’s over 900 yards away?
Also no one runs crappy Berserker MH Axe builds anymore, not to any degree of success against competent players anyway.

Dolan pls, at least every third warrior I see uses a Berserker MH Axe build.

Cyhann.2609:

Dolan.3071:

Maugetarr.6823:

Velron.3729:

redslion.9675:

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

It’s called: if you see the thief stealth, run the opposite direction, count to two-three nd raise the shield. You should be able to wait the thief out of stealth then, right?

You’re so clever! None of us ever thought about that!

Oh wait, no this is pretty much exactly what we do.

The problem is, just waiting out a stealth timer is MEANINGLESS.

I will explain. When the stealth timer just ends, there is no revealed debuff. So waiting out the stealth does nothing, all the thief has to do is immediately CnD or Smoke field+Leap again for instant restealth and now Backstab time with shield stance on CD.

Or you could shield bash to eviscerate and using the +50% crit chance on stunned foes and get a guaranteed crit taking at least a 3/4 chunk out of their health.

How do you Shield Bash something that’s over 900 yards away?
Also no one runs crappy Berserker MH Axe builds anymore, not to any degree of success against competent players anyway.

Dolan pls, at least every third warrior I see uses a Berserker MH Axe build.

Actually I’ll give you that, I think people are addicted to the sound it makes. If you’re a Berserker throwing Eviscerates at a remotely good thief, you’re gonna have a bad time xD

Dolan.3071:

Maugetarr.6823:

Velron.3729:

redslion.9675:

Fenrir.5493:

Cyhann.2609:

But, tell me one thing, how can you even block an attack you can’t see? o_O

Its called instinct, its called experience, its called sixth sense, believe it or not, but a person who has a lot of experience in battle can predict something like this.

The same way you know when a thief stealths you sense their backstab coming then you block.

It’s called: if you see the thief stealth, run the opposite direction, count to two-three nd raise the shield. You should be able to wait the thief out of stealth then, right?

You’re so clever! None of us ever thought about that!

Oh wait, no this is pretty much exactly what we do.

The problem is, just waiting out a stealth timer is MEANINGLESS.

I will explain. When the stealth timer just ends, there is no revealed debuff. So waiting out the stealth does nothing, all the thief has to do is immediately CnD or Smoke field+Leap again for instant restealth and now Backstab time with shield stance on CD.

Or you could shield bash to eviscerate and using the +50% crit chance on stunned foes and get a guaranteed crit taking at least a 3/4 chunk out of their health.

How do you Shield Bash something that’s over 900 yards away?
Also no one runs crappy Berserker MH Axe builds anymore, not to any degree of success against competent players anyway.

You don’t have to run zerker, you can run 0/15/25/0/30 in knights armor/cavalier trinkets and still achieve 7.5k+ crits on eviscerate. Also the axe auto-attack chain cuts through the blind field pretty nicely. In addition, why would the thief be 900 away? Wasn’t he just jabbing away at your shield? Unless he burns a stunbreak (for no reason) he should end up right behind you.

Maugetarr.6823:

Or you could shield bash to eviscerate and using the +50% crit chance on stunned foes and get a guaranteed crit taking at least a 3/4 chunk out of their health.

You can’t do this against a D/P thief who is constantly spamming blind/heart seeker/backstab the entire fight. I do this every now and then on my thief and it hurts how cheesy and effective it is. Easy mode.

EvilSardine.9635:

Maugetarr.6823:

Or you could shield bash to eviscerate and using the +50% crit chance on stunned foes and get a guaranteed crit taking at least a 3/4 chunk out of their health.

You can’t do this against a D/P thief who is constantly spamming blind/heart seeker/backstab the entire fight. I do this every now and then on my thief and it hurts how cheesy and effective it is. Easy mode.

Except that the axe auto-attack chain is fast enough to effectively clear blinds faster than a thief can apply them assuming you’re not sitting in the center of the BPS field (even then its fast enough that every other attack will hit). If you count the field time, clear the blind and shield bakitten around 3 seconds, you’ll most likely interrupt the heartseeker leaving the thief out 9 initiative and setting up your attack.

Maugetarr.6823:

Except that the axe auto-attack chain is fast enough to effectively clear blinds faster than a thief can apply them assuming you’re not sitting in the center of the BPS field (even then its fast enough that every other attack will hit). If you count the field time, clear the blind and shield bakitten around 3 seconds, you’ll most likely interrupt the heartseeker leaving the thief out 9 initiative and setting up your attack.

Swinging your axe in the air won’t clear a blind anymore. If a thief is letting you relentlessly Axe 1 him then he’s doing it wrong.