Guild Wars 2

Thats correct. The wiki would lead you to believe all there there is no citation to this.

That the total axe chain is 3.15 if you add up all of the activation times.

In practice the total time is more like 3.30 or 3.33 And the after cast is .15 to be very generous

Which is pretty significant. which means that DWA only reduces the axe chain to 3 seconds. Down from 3.15 A difference of .15 seconds. As the wiki would lead you to believe.

And when I compared the difference between DWA and NON DWA I saw a total difference between the two of 3.679% when just comparing 1 chain to the other chain.

Which made a lot of since. As after I had landed 3 chains I reached around the 10% mark which allowed me to land the 4th axe chain 10% faster. which happened between 9-10 seconds. Than I would of without the trait.

Some people have mentioned this already, but a specific request for warlord: Can you do the same experiment but measure time to kill, not damage/10 sec? TTK will still have variation to it, so you would need repeated measurements to get an accurate picture.

Both TTK and damage/time are valid ways to measure DPS, but Warlord is correct that Damage/time suffers from the exact number of hits that occur within a given time. For that reason, if you choose to measure as damage/time you should only use a very long time window to remove this effect.

TTK more closely emulates real conditions since it’s exactly what fights are like. You kill a boss with X amount of damage, not do damage within X amount of time. I know it sounds nitpicky, but that’s the heart of what’s being debated here.

Sure I will run the experiment tonight. The reason why I chose to do 30 secs originally is ANET has a habbit of reusing the same math or codes then implementing it in different ways.

I wanted to compare the stack 10% frenzy to Sigil of rage and to other skills that used the same math like last chance and frenzy. I saw a pattern in all these skills they all regulated the DPS by using differnce Cool downs with differnt durations but they all averaged out to be the same.

Which made me suspect that ANET used the same MATH but instead of like a 50% increase for 6 seconds with a 60 second cool down. Or 3 seconds at 50% CD with a 30 sec cooldown or 4 secs with a 40 sec cooldown.

They used the same math but instead of regulating it by giving it a long cool down they nerfed it to 10% and made it perm.

So using this trait in the same amout of time it would take one of those skills on Cool down equaled those skills in that time.

The problem I found with that ment if you wanted the same mialage out of this trait as you would get for lets say frenzy that would mean you needed to attack for 60 seconds.

Which means if this is in fact true you are better off using frenzy every 60 seoncds when the cool down is up than this trait.

Ya so I ran that test and will upload the video later on average it made no difference. With DWA and without DWA heavy golems died in 11 seconds. I honestly think that most of you are on som kinda placebo effect becasue the skill is more responsive you you think it is so much better. From my testing this trait is a 3.6% DPS increase. Which is kinda funny that some people still think ANET would give them something really good.

There’s a really easy way to measure this and you’re not doing it.

1) Untraited axe chain is one per 3.6s. You can test it if you want but that’s what it is.
2) Test actual traited attack chain speed by doing it and measuring it. No one cares about splitting startup and aftercast, just measure the whole thing.
3) Divide #1 by #2.

And that’ll give you your average DPS boost. So easy.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

There’s a really easy way to measure this and you’re not doing it.

1) Untraited axe chain is one per 3.6s. You can test it if you want but that’s what it is.
2) Test actual traited attack chain speed by doing it and measuring it. No one cares about splitting startup and aftercast, just measure the whole thing.
3) Divide #1 by #2.

And that’ll give you your average DPS boost. So easy.

Thank you for finally showing us your math now we all know why you are wrong.

See attached screen shots. This was a recorded axe chain at 30FPS using fraps without DWA. Then the File was opened in sony VEGAS to count frame by frame and examine when frames happened. My axe chain starts at 0 It ends at 3.20 And that is being very generous. It is no where near 3.6 Now I know exactly why your math is wrong.

So judging by this I can back up the WIKI and say wiki is 100% correct the totally activation time of the axe chain without DWA is 3.15 with an after cast of .15 to .20 that makes me 100% certain that a arena net employee put that data in there because its right.

You know what that means? Means with DWA your axe chain is around 3 seconds after you added aftercast back to the equation.

Which means there is about a .15 difference between DWA and Non DWA.

And that .15 difference is your DPS Increase. I which I call very small. And its no where close to whatever % you think it is and its no wonder that pure GS destroys Pure AXE now this trait cant compensate.

So I guess I was wrong it maybe makes this trait a 4-5% DPS increase. If you can see it that way. I see it as totally meaningless.

After I tested how long it took to take down 10 Heavy golems with and without DWA and there was an average of 11 seconds no matter what happened. With DWA being only slightly faster but still and average of 11 secs. either way DWA or no DWA.

Thats the problem If you started with 3.6 and didn’t account for aftercast I can see why you and everyone else thinks its a 8-10% DPS increase it certainly does not work out that way with the proper numbers to start with.

There’s an aftercast, it’s not just the animation time. Stop the clock at any multiple of 3.6 seconds, you’ll be in the exact same part of the animation at any given time. Go up to 36 seconds and you will get exact 10 full axe chains.

You are throwing around random words and numbers but it’s becoming increasingly apparent that you have absolutely no idea what any of them mean. I thought you were just confused about math but I am starting to suspect you are confused about English too.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

There’s an aftercast, it’s not just the animation time. Stop the clock at any multiple of 3.6 seconds, you’ll be in the exact same part of the animation at any given time. Go up to 36 seconds and you will get exact 10 full axe chains.

You are throwing around random words and numbers but it’s becoming increasingly apparent that you have absolutely no idea what any of them mean. I thought you were just confused about math but I am starting to suspect you are confused about English too.

WOW ok totally done talking to you. I don’t need a clock bro I have a program that can analyze time and video frames. I even provided you screen shots of those times and video frames. to prove that WIKI was correct. And you in fact have the wrong numbers to begin with that you based your calculations on I really am done with talking to you now good bye.

The correct way to time the chain is to keep attacking and find distinct frames. For example when the first hit of the chain lands. There is no guarantee that bars you see on the screen actually represent anything meaningful.

For improved accuracy you should time multiple chains in a row.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Wethospu.6437:

With those rules this topic would have got immediately deleted.

Not really, he did provide a video. People usually accuse their forums of being too strict, and that being so strict stops meaningful discussion. Obviously that is incorrect, but I think watching the video in the OP has merit. It brings up a good point about the calculation of casting speed vs flat attack speed. This trait affects the casting speed, but that seems to be it based on the video.

So if the OP’s original point was to say that “This trait doesn’t provide a flat 10% increase to attack speed as it relates to damage, nor does this give a 10% increase to dps as would be implied by a 10% ias”.

Perhaps you should actually read the OP and see what he is actually saying on it.

you should be timing the length of the AA chain by the first frame of the first chop defined by the damage number popup, to frame of the next chop.

Um… did you guys look at my chat box. It says the final tripple chop had already landed. The bar and the animation are other indications. I really don’t get you guys you think that I come in here and I tell you lies becasue I don’t understand what I am talking about I don’t get it. i have nothing to gain by doing that.

Thats why I turned combat text on.

It makes a really big difference in a calculation like this. Obviously the smaller number you have to begin with the less on an increase something like this is.

If you time from start of the attack to the last hit you will ignore the last aftercast.

Do you honestly think you are the first one to test these things? When everyone else gets different results than you do you should seriously consider your own testing methods.

Wethospu.6437:

If you time from start of the attack to the last hit you will ignore the last aftercast.

Do you honestly think you are the first one to test these things? When everyone else gets different results than you do you should seriously consider your own testing methods.

Not really the first person to test things. Just the only person in this thread independently testing something without using data that I borrowed from someone else perhaps? Do you beleive everything you read? I don’t. Do you trust everything you hear I don’t. Maybe the reason all of you are in agreement is becasue you borrowed your data all from the same source? I think so…

Next week: Why driving somewhere at 132km/h isn’t really faster than driving at 120km/h because you still go past the same number of towns.

Warlord.9074:

Wethospu.6437:

If you time from start of the attack to the last hit you will ignore the last aftercast.

Do you honestly think you are the first one to test these things? When everyone else gets different results than you do you should seriously consider your own testing methods.

Not really the first person to test things. Just the only person in this thread independently testing something without using data that I borrowed from someone else perhaps? Do you beleive everything you read? I don’t. Do you trust everything you hear I don’t. Maybe the reason all of you are in agreement is becasue you borrowed your data all from the same source? I think so…

You’re late to the party again. This was already extensively tested. Frifox demonstrated that DWA reduces the axe auto chain from 3.56 to 3.28. This is verified and settled.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dual-Wield-Agility-not-really-10

Since most of us are capable of figuring out 3.28/3.56 this issue was settled long ago. You’re using the shakiest data ever to support a conclusion that has no basis in reality. In fact, you haven’t actually stated what your conclusion is. The only solid thing you have shown is that DWA gets approximate 54 hits in 30 seconds and approximately 51 without it. Since this more or less confirms what we already knew, how it manages to demonstrate an original conclusion is beyond me.

What is the kill time disparity between two identical builds, one with DWA and one without, that hit for 100 per swing against a 10k hp mob? Since you refused to answer it, I will. It will require 100 hits. The DWA build will make its 100th hit at approximately 54.6 seconds. The non DWA build will make its 100th hit at approximately 59.3 seconds. I do not require advanced arithmetic to determine what that dps increase is.

I like how he took the “stop the clock” line literally and responded with “I don’t need a clock, I have a stopwatch.”

Tree you missed the party becasue my screen shots are without DWA… I am stating AXE chains are not as long as you think they are without it. All those tests are mostly wrong because of aftercast.

Now you guys can sheepish beleive whoever you want. Can continue to troll me without providing any real proof of your own. Thats fine go for it but I’m done.

Its an easy thing to test. Do 3 axe chains and see if the final chop lands in under 10 seconds by looking at the Combat text. If it does you are wrong.

becasue 3.5 or 3.6 X 3 is longer than 10 secs.

As far as you needing advanced math to figure it out your right about that because you haven’t figured out it for your self you copied someone eles data and believed it without question.

Funnily enough it is your own test which is wrong because you completely ignore the aftercast of the final blow. It’s pretty amazing how many times this has to be told.

Wethospu.6437:

Funnily enough it is your own test which is wrong because you completely ignore the aftercast of the final blow. It’s pretty amazing how many times this has to be told.

If you multiplied the aftercast you did the equation wrong.

Axe AA chain is 3.15s
Video here since you guys cant test it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu8xKjKCsl0&feature=youtu.be

Every attack has a time before the hit and a time after the hit. If you stop your timer at the hit you will miss the time after the hit. So you should stop the timer when the 4th chain starts.

It doesn’t matter how many times you test it or post proof if it’s done wrong every time.

Wethospu.6437:

Every attack has a time before the hit and a time after the hit. If you stop your timer at the hit you will miss the time after the hit. So you should stop the timer when the 4th chain starts.

lol do I have to make a nother video…That is exactly what I did in the screenshots I provided earlyer. It shows that tripple chop had already landed and it started chop.

I think the problem that most people are having calculating this skill is it is loaded with animations and after cast that has nothing to do with the damage it does.

You could say well maybe if you stoped soon as you started the next chain that it would be more accurate, but that doesn’t change the fact that the damage was already done. And that is what we are measuring here. Any time inbetween is aftercast. We are not measuring aftercast or animations becasue we cannot include those in the equation becasue they never change and DWA has zero effect on those.

If you take the whole skill as you beleive it to be + after cast then muliply it. You are calculating DWA to have an effect on aftercast which has been proven not to. Which then spits out erronous data and makes it look as if DWA has reduced more time off the axe chain than it really has.

Not only that but if you try and multiple and axe chain that you beleive is longer than it really and the aftercast then that gives even more erroneous data.

Conclusion the only thing that DWA effects are activation times. It has zero effect on animations or after cast.

To properly calculate DWA take the total activation time of the axe chain which is 3.15 Multiply it by .10 you get .315
Now multiply .315 times 9
you get 2.835
Now add the after cast to
2.835 which I believed to be as high as 2.0 but no more that that.

you are looking at an axe chain that is approximately 3 seconds now.

Since I had showed that you can complete 3 axe chains without DWA in under 10 seconds.

The differnce between DWA and Non DWA is a fraction of a second.

It is somewhere between .15 and .20

No one, not a single person, has argued that DWA affects aftercasts. You keep repeating that like we deny it, and you keep repeating it like it proves some major point.

It does not. The fact is, that by any measurable criteria, a DWA build will kill a mob faster than the same build without DWA. The amount of that increase is, as we discussed already weeks ago before you started this thread, between 6-8%. Whether you think 6-8% is “no good” is a subjective thing, it doesn’t change the actual functionality. Would it be better of it was actually 10%? Ofcourse, does that change that it is a DPS increase, albeit small than advertised on the tool tip? No, it doesn’t.

If you’re trying to prove a point that the dps gain is less than 6-8%, I believe enough evidence has been presented to show you why that isn’t accurate and it would be best for you to concede that point, if indeed that is what you are arguing.

Edit due to flood control: I see you concede defeat, albeit a qualified defeat. By any metric it is at least 6%. Saying “maybe 5%” is making up numbers when we already know they are not true. But it is big of you to admit -somewhat- that you’re wrong.

Not sure what you feel the need to mention Nike for, since he was one of the people who determined it was 6% dps boost long before you made this thread. Forgive me for engaging in amateur psychoanalysis, but when you mention some person unrelated to this discussion it makes you seem a bit jealous and makes you look like a BHB. It’s sad that you are so threatened by Nike, I can only imagine how threatened you are by superior players like Goku, Wethospu, Haviz, or Dub. Especially considering how many of them have posted in this thread and made you look foolish.

Edited my above post to show the proper calcualations.

As for me saying its no good? My argument was not necessarily that its no good as much as my argument was that the trait alone is not as high as a DPS increase as people believed it to be. I will continue to argue that its not even a 6% but I have noticed as time has gone on we went from a 10% and are now at potentially a 6%.

Another thing that people are calculating is 50 precision and 50 condition damage then including that into their believe that DWA as it stands alone is what it is. I will never concede that the differences are large enough that promote that this is a mandatory trait in a pure axe build or a pure duel wielding build.

So much so that NIKE posts it on a forum and then we get reports of people getting kicked from their parties for not running it. Which did in fact happen. Then later on we get a whole other tune that Pure GS is better.

Conclusion this trait is maybe a 5% DPS increase in all honestly. I am not saying its worthless I am saying it is menial. From my testing and my calculations it is not a whole lot better. Yes maybe you can kill something fractions of a second faster I will concede that. But I will never concede that that fraction of a second is always true nor will I concede that that fraction of a second necessarily makes any difference. If it was seconds it would be one thing but we are not talking seconds unless we do a Time based DPS test where you attack things for X number of minutes.

Warlord.9074:

lol do I have to make a nother video…That is exactly what I did in the screenshots I provided earlyer. It shows that tripple chop had already landed and it started chop.

I think the problem that most people are having calculating this skill is it is loaded with animations and after cast that has nothing to do with the damage it does.

You could say well maybe if you stoped soon as you started the next chain that it would be more accurate, but that doesn’t change the fact that the damage was already done. And that is what we are measuring here. Any time inbetween is aftercast. We are not measuring aftercast or animations becasue we cannot include those in the equation becasue they never change and DWA has zero effect on those.

If you take the whole skill as you beleive it to be + after cast then muliply it. You are calculating DWA to have an effect on aftercast which has been proven not to. Which then spits out erronous data and makes it look as if DWA has reduced more time off the axe chain than it really has.

Not only that but if you try and multiple and axe chain that you beleive is longer than it really and the aftercast then that gives even more erroneous data.

Conclusion the only thing that DWA effects are activation times. It has zero effect on animations or after cast.

To properly calculate DWA take the total activation time of the axe chain which is 3.15 Multiply it by .10 you get .315
Now multiply .315 times 9
you get 2.835
Now add the after cast to
2.835 which I believed to be as high as 2.0 but no more that that.

you are looking at an axe chain that is approximately 3 seconds now.

Since I had showed that you can complete 3 axe chains without DWA in under 10 seconds.

The differnce between DWA and Non DWA is a fraction of a second.

It is somewhere between .15 and .20

As I said, no point to make more videos if you don’t bother to make them right.

While aftercast doesn’t affect damage, it’s pretty important for DPS. Just like cast times. Ignoring aftercast isn’t realistic. Sure, you get the damage but then you have to account it for the next chain. Attacks work together, not separated in a vacuum.

Also you are jumping on conclusions by assuming that some parts of the attack don’t get affected by DWA. Your assumption and result can’t be the same.

Most of us are already saying that the overall effect is ~8% because of some parts not being affected by DWA. But this has nothing do with your original claims such as “if you stop attacking before 10s DWA has no effect”.

With the right cast time (3.56 s) 3 chains take 10.68 seconds. Aftercast for the final hit is like 0.4 seconds and add some error from your part and you can easily get sub 10 seconds.

Values by Frifox: 3.56 s and 3.28 s with DWA. Let’s say aftercast is X seconds. So full chain is (3.56 – X) + X. With DWA that becomes (3.56 – X)/1.1 + X = 3.28. Which is 3.56 – X + 1.1X = 3.608. Which is X = (3.608 – 3.56)/0.1 = 0.48. So aftercast for the chain is 0.48 seconds. And cast time without aftercast is 3.08 seconds.

Anyways, here is my test of 20 chains: http://youtu.be/e4A4ru-1Q3M which shows that total cast time is 3.56 s.

Wethospu.6437:

With the right cast time (3.56 s) 3 chains take 10.68 seconds. Aftercast for the final hit is like 0.4 seconds and add some error from your part and you can easily get sub 10 seconds.

Cast time is not 3.56 though you have been repeatedly told that by not only me but by other people in this thread. Cast time is simply the activation time simple. Everything else outside of activation times are animations and after cast.

It is not an assumption that quickness has no effect on aftercast that is a fact. Aftercast is what comes after the hit hence After cast.

Your claims so far are that the chain is 3.56 which I have not been able to duplicate under a microscope. And even if your were correct and you are not that would mean that the aftercast is .40 or .48 as what you said.

So if I took 3.15 multiplied it by .10 got 2.835 then added .48 to it I would be at 3.315

3.315X3=9.945 Which is still under 10 seconds. And since I proved that 3 axe chains can land in under 10 seconds that makes your point totally meaningless.

Regardless of the fact that not all the animations occur in under 10 seconds its still a fact that it landed. And all the damage was done that was going to be done.

Simply put I am sorry but your math is just simply wrong.

Lastly My very 1st post I made proved that you were wrong that you have ignored for days. Why because if your math was right there would be no possible way you could start the 4th axe chain in 10 seconds.

Activation time for the whole chain is 3.56 s. I don’t really care when the damage lands as you have to go through the whole chain anyways. Anyways, really pointless nitpicking from you.

Unless you have evidence how the game actually works you are assuming things. I could make a game where quickness affected aftercast which would prove your fact wrong.

3.56 (or 3.6) has been verified by me, frifox and Guanglai. Nike has probably tested it too on his own. You are the one who is getting unverifiable results.

Yes, with DWA you can get 3 chains under 10 seconds. However, your initial claim was without DWA. Please try to be consistent with your claims.

Whether the final hit lands is a completely pointless fact as you still have to finish the animation. Without knowing the length of the whole animation you can’t calculate DPS. And if you can’t calculate DPS you can’t calculate how DWA affects that DPS.

Your video is hardly a proof as youtube only shows whole seconds. Anyways, I stopped video at first hit (0:51) and stopped again on first hit of 4th cahin (1:02). So 4th chain started in 11 seconds. Even your own proof supports my claim.

My proof is not just videos. My proof is the WIKI which I was able to duplicate in a screen shot I provided on the other page where I opened a video in Sony Vegas. And checked the frames that conceded with exactly what wiki said. I esentially examed this skill under a microscope. I didn’t not just visially look at it. I checked it frame by frame in a video editor.

Im beginning to think the real issue here is not math its simply reading comprehesion and memory.

It states the whole sequence is 2.9 but I couldn’t independently validate that. When I added up all the activation times and looked at the total activation time in sony Vegas I validated the skill I validated it to be 3.15 to 3.20
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Axe

Again for the last time part of the reason you are having a hard time calculating this is the 1st axe chain has cast delay. The very 1st time you press #1 there is a cast delay. Subsequent chains do not experience this same delay.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quickness
Quickness only effects Channel time AKA/ Activation time.
Skills have 2 (or in some cases 3) portions.

“Cast Time” is the time before the skill has any effect, usually represented by a thin cast bar on-screen.

“Channel Time” is the time during which the skill repeats effects, for certain skills. Is represented as a thick cast bar. Example for warrior: Hundred Blades.

“Aftercast” is the time after the skill completes in which you can’t activate another non-instant skill, e.g. that pause after an auto-attack chain completes before the next chain begins.

Warlord.9074:

My proof is not just videos. My proof is the WIKI which anyone can edit at any time to put whatever they want in there.

Nice dude.

Warlord.9074:

My proof is not just videos. My proof is the WIKI which I was able to duplicate in a screen shot I provided on the other page where I opened a video in Sony Vegas. And checked the frames that conceded with exactly what wiki said. I esentially examed this skill under a microscope. I didn’t not just visially look at it. I checked it frame by frame in a video editor.

Im beginning to think the real issue here is not math its simply reading comprehesion and memory.

It states the whole sequence is 2.9 but I couldn’t independently validate that. When I added up all the activation times and looked at the total activation time in sony Vegas I validated the skill I validated it to be 3.15 to 3.20
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Axe

Again for the last time part of the reason you are having a hard time calculating this is the 1st axe chain has cast delay. The very 1st time you press #1 there is a cast delay. Subsequent chains do not experience this same delay.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quickness
Quickness only effects Channel time AKA/ Activation time.
Skills have 2 (or in some cases 3) portions.

“Cast Time” is the time before the skill has any effect, usually represented by a thin cast bar on-screen.

“Channel Time” is the time during which the skill repeats effects, for certain skills. Is represented as a thick cast bar. Example for warrior: Hundred Blades.

“Aftercast” is the time after the skill completes in which you can’t activate another non-instant skill, e.g. that pause after an auto-attack chain completes before the next chain begins.

Didn’t you just while ago accuse us for blindly following someone else’s data? And now you base your result on wiki which can be edited by anyone at any time.

I time the chains from first hit to the first hit of next chain so there won’t be any cast delay. If your testing method is so inaccurate that you can’t get same results like everyone else perhaps you should work on improving that.

By the way, how can you say that the skill activates in 3.15-3.2 s when it actually consists of 3 skills? How did you count cast times and aftercast for each skill? If you didn’t then you have a number without any meaning as it is a mix of cast times and aftercasts.

Wiki page doesn’t say that Quickness ONLY affects channeling time. Now you are again making up stuff to support your claim.

I also asked frifox to test Quickness. He got 2.4 s for the chain which means 48% faster actions. So unlike DWA, it seems to also work on aftercasts.

Wethospu.6437:

So if the OP’s original point was to say that “This trait doesn’t provide a flat 10% increase to attack speed as it relates to damage, nor does this give a 10% increase to dps as would be implied by a 10% ias”.

Perhaps you should actually read the OP and see what he is actually saying on it.

I did, but I don’t think you paid attention to where I put the words “if”. That’s to say that I do not know the absolute intention of the OP, but I’m assuming he confirmed my theory when he replied Yes afterwords. I could be wrong, and he could have meant that for someone else. I have no way of knowing. However I think anyone will admit that if his intent was to show that the 10% wasn’t as accurate as it appears, that he is correct. However that has, or at least should have, been known already by anyone caring to know.

Just leaving that there as a system that I wish gw2 had more of. The last time I used anything like this was with the mesmer. Haven’t tried with warrior, and I’m not even sure if it would work.

edit

The above link is about stutter stepping in LoL. It’s pretty essential, in my opinion, to be good with it if you want to get past maybe high gold. It’s a skill that’s relatively easy to learn, and enhances your damage significantly. Maybe there is a system like this in GW2, I’m really not sure.

Wethospu.6437:

Warlord.9074:

My proof is not just videos. My proof is the WIKI which I was able to duplicate in a screen shot I provided on the other page where I opened a video in Sony Vegas. And checked the frames that conceded with exactly what wiki said. I esentially examed this skill under a microscope. I didn’t not just visially look at it. I checked it frame by frame in a video editor.

Im beginning to think the real issue here is not math its simply reading comprehesion and memory.

It states the whole sequence is 2.9 but I couldn’t independently validate that. When I added up all the activation times and looked at the total activation time in sony Vegas I validated the skill I validated it to be 3.15 to 3.20
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Axe

Again for the last time part of the reason you are having a hard time calculating this is the 1st axe chain has cast delay. The very 1st time you press #1 there is a cast delay. Subsequent chains do not experience this same delay.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quickness
Quickness only effects Channel time AKA/ Activation time.
Skills have 2 (or in some cases 3) portions.

“Cast Time” is the time before the skill has any effect, usually represented by a thin cast bar on-screen.

“Channel Time” is the time during which the skill repeats effects, for certain skills. Is represented as a thick cast bar. Example for warrior: Hundred Blades.

“Aftercast” is the time after the skill completes in which you can’t activate another non-instant skill, e.g. that pause after an auto-attack chain completes before the next chain begins.

Didn’t you just while ago accuse us for blindly following someone else’s data? And now you base your result on wiki which can be edited by anyone at any time.

I time the chains from first hit to the first hit of next chain so there won’t be any cast delay. If your testing method is so inaccurate that you can’t get same results like everyone else perhaps you should work on improving that.

By the way, how can you say that the skill activates in 3.15-3.2 s when it actually consists of 3 skills? How did you count cast times and aftercast for each skill? If you didn’t then you have a number without any meaning as it is a mix of cast times and aftercasts.

Wiki page doesn’t say that Quickness ONLY affects channeling time. Now you are again making up stuff to support your claim.

I also asked frifox to test Quickness. He got 2.4 s for the chain which means 48% faster actions. So unlike DWA, it seems to also work on aftercasts.

The thing is and this is the last time that I am going to respond to you because you either are choosing not to listen to me or you cant. I independently verified it in a professional non-linear editing system called sony vegas look it up. If you don’t own it maybe you should buy it. Its a great piece of software. They use it to make movies with in holywood its up there with final cut pro.

I made multiple recordings at 30 FPS using a program called FRAPS. I then imported that recording into sony vegas. I went through the recordning frame by frame until I found the exact pinpoint beigining of the axe chain and the exact end of the axe chain and the program will tell you how many seconds it is to the decimal point.

There was absolutely no assumptions on my part, I never borrowed anyone elses data. I did all of the forensic testing myself where I was able to verify not only what I experienced in game but was also able to verify that what the program told me and I was able to recreate it 100% of the time in controlled experiments.

How do I know that quickness has no effect on after cast. Try casting frenzy then try spamming all of your skills not the same one and see if the game lets you as fast as you think they should and if that isn’t clear enough evidence to you than nothing I say will ever mean anything to you.

As I have mentioned before you shouldn’t time from start to end. You should time from start of the first chain to start of the second chain. Otherwise you may miss something between end of the first chain and start of the second chain.

Also as I have mentioned before, it doesn’t matter how many times you repeat your test if you do it wrong every single time. You can’t just randomly test something and apply it to something else.

Just spamming all of your skills is not a proof. If this is how you get your results I’m not very surprised that they are wrong.

Well I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree then leave it at that. I find perfect comfort in knowing that not only you are too immature to admit that someone else could be right but also that you are not man enough to do so. I really shouldn’t of expected anymore that that. I’m sure you find it emotionally more easy that way at this point. After all of the arguing you did you probably feel like you are past the point of no return.

Thats fine dude believe whatever you want to believe then I cant force you. I’m done here. Good luck with your life.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

I did, but I don’t think you paid attention to where I put the words “if”. That’s to say that I do not know the absolute intention of the OP, but I’m assuming he confirmed my theory when he replied Yes afterwords. I could be wrong, and he could have meant that for someone else. I have no way of knowing. However I think anyone will admit that if his intent was to show that the 10% wasn’t as accurate as it appears, that he is correct. However that has, or at least should have, been known already by anyone caring to know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgMMxTofZ5A

Just leaving that there as a system that I wish gw2 had more of. The last time I used anything like this was with the mesmer. Haven’t tried with warrior, and I’m not even sure if it would work.

edit

The above link is about stutter stepping in LoL. It’s pretty essential, in my opinion, to be good with it if you want to get past maybe high gold. It’s a skill that’s relatively easy to learn, and enhances your damage significantly. Maybe there is a system like this in GW2, I’m really not sure.

No one here is saying that DWA is 10% but he is claiming that it’s essentially useless.

There is not stutter stepping in gw2 because of one simple reason – you can already move while attacking. In every game that technique was possible (including gw1 where it was called qstepping) your character couldn’t move and attack at the same time.

Not only that but what he requested me to do was to measure from start to start. Which makes no since because then you would be measuring start twice. I had already fulfilled that request and posted these 2 screen shots the second one showing that my character has already starated the 2nd chain. But no matter how many times that was repeated to him he kept regurgitating the same thing over and over.

So I made a decision that I will not respond to anything else he ever says a gain. since he repeatedly ignored it. He will get repeatedly ignored and I dont even think an apology at this point can fix that. And by the way both screen shots were of the same clip. I just couldn’t show the whole thing in one clip. Mind you this was at the beginning of this page.

@Warlord:

I have a few questionable things that have popped to my mind looking at this whole thing.

• Are you certain that your recording is a constant 30 frames per second? That is, from start to the 3.2s point, you should then have exactly 66 frames.
• Since your recording is at 30 frames per second (assuming you checked it), that means that your time has an accuracy of 1/30. Thus, you cannot say it’s exactly 3.2s.
• Since we’re talking about a cycle here, the starting point is irrelevant to the length of it. Have you cross-checked your 3.2s finding by getting the time from the Chop hit on the first chain to the Chop hit on the second chain? What about Double Chop or Triple Chop?

The screenshot that you provided earlier (the 3.2s one) shows that your 00:00 time is after Chop lands but the 03:20 time is before the next Chop lands. Clearly that is not the full cycle.

I just did an elementary test of stopwatching your first YouTube video at 0.25x the normal speed. I started when the first Chop showed up in the damage log and ended when the next one showed up. I got 13.2s with DWA, which would lead to 3.3s total. Similarly, without DWA, I got 14.2s, or 3.55s. Will you tell me that I was off by 0.5-1.5s on pressing the button every single time?

Warlord.9074:

Not only that but what he requested me to do was to measure from start to start. Which makes no since because then you would be measuring start twice. I had already fulfilled that request and posted these 2 screen shots the second one showing that my character has already starated the 2nd chain. But no matter how many times that was repeated to him he kept regurgitating the same thing over and over.

So I made a decision that I will not respond to anything else he ever says a gain. since he repeatedly ignored it. He will get repeatedly ignored and I dont even think an apology at this point can fix that. And by the way both screen shots were of the same clip. I just couldn’t show the whole thing in one clip. Mind you this was at the beginning of this page.

As Olba already pointed out, you didn’t start the timer at the start of the chain but at the first hit. Similarly you should stop the timer at the first hit of the second chain OR start the timer at the start of the chain.

Start and end points have to match so you get a full chain. Anything else and you get wrong results as you have successfully proven.

Thats an interesting question that you asked there. Let me try to respond to it with the best of my ability. I’m not even fully sure that the average human can subjectively perceive many more frames than that in all honesty.

I am certain my recording is a constant 30fps. I can record up to 60 fps without dropping frames on this computer. And I guess that was the basis of your question is your computer strong enough to record at 30fps without dropping frames. yes.

As far as cross checking if I could land 3 axe chains and cause 3 axe chains worth of damage. I wanted to test that. I believed that If I could land 3 axe chains worth of damage in under 10 seconds without DWA than my results must of been true.

So here you go. A couple people in here disputed this video basically because they said “I don’t know how to do anything right” But nobody ever disputed whether or not the damage actually landed on the golem.

Warlord.9074:

I find perfect comfort in knowing that not only you are too immature to admit that someone else could be right but also that you are not man enough to do so

are you describing yourself?

you are timing from the first instance of damage, tot he last instance of damage. which does not include the activation time for the first chop, and the aftercast of triple chop. so of course no matter how many times you measure it, it’s going to come up short of everyone else’s measurements.

you need to time from the same place, for a full period of the rotation. ie, perform 3 full chains, and time from the first triple chop, to the second triple chop. that will give you an accurate time.

That is irrelevant to the Damage. What I have been attempting to explain and maybe I am not so good at it. Is what you see your character doing is only a visual representation of what it did. If you want to measure Damage you need to measure the damage the character performed. This can be done fairly accurately by turning on combat text. Combat text is a much more accurate reading because the game engine will report to you in real time all actions that occurred. I personally trust the combat text a lot more than anything else.

Let me try and put it into laymen terms for you. You will see a lighting strike before you hear the thunder. But no one is measuring when the lighting strike occurred by measuring when they heard the thunder. It’s very basic science that light travels a lot faster than sound.

Essentially what you are doing by doing it the way that you are doing is saying the skill did dps after it actually did DPS because you are not measuring the DPS you are measuring animations. And I’m too the point that I think that there are people in this thread that understand this by now but are either brain dead or trolling at this point.

And where in this case some of the animations are irrelevant to the DPS. Which means if somthing really happened in example 15 seconds. But instead I went with 20 seconds. Then I tried to reduce 30% from 20 instead of 30% from 15. My number would be larger than what it really is. Not only would my number be larger than what it really is but I multiplied something that I shouldn’t of had multiplied becasue that value never changes. Then basically I report on a forum that this value is correct…KK are you following me and it turns out to be wrong because I didn’t do it right. I didn’t do it right becasue not only did I not independently test this but I borrowed my data that I used to make my math with that I didn’t validate was accurate. Then somone tells me I didn’t do it right and then I won’t admit it. That is the gist.

There are enough people out there that will refute the claims that some made in here that quickness effects aftercast. I’m pretty sure if you tried hard enough you could find a dev to tell you that. Make no mistake.

DWA is also irrelevant to the damage so not sure what you are trying to prove here. Cast time has nothing to do with how much damage your character does.

You don’t seem to understand that DPS means damage per second. Skills do damage, not damage per second. However, you can calculate (average) DPS for a skill with equation “total damage” / “total time”.

If your “total time” isn’t actually the whole animation for that skill then you aren’t measuring DPS for that skill. Instead, you are measuring DPS for only a part of that skill. And that is pointless since we can’t use “a part of a skill” in game.

If you have some evidence to prove that quickness doesn’t affect aftercast feel free to share. Just refuting claims isn’t enough.

Warlord.9074:

Thats an interesting question that you asked there. Let me try to respond to it with the best of my ability. I’m not even fully sure that the average human can subjectively perceive many more frames than that in all honesty.

If there’s no difference between 30fps and 60fps, why do we even have 120Hz monitors? https://boallen.com/fps-compare.html

You are aware that videos don’t run at a steady framerate? That’s why TAC videos are difficult to make even if you program the timing perfectly, they often drop timing windows between 1-2f because the framerate isn’t perfectly smooth and the computer can’t time inputs that accurately over a long period of time.

Either way though no amount of technology can make up for a methodology that is flawed to beign with. Maybe instead of assuming you’re the only genuis who’s discovered something as super obvious as “I actually attack way faster than everyone else thinks I do” you should probably go back and recheck your methodology very carefully. If this was an issue like DPS rankings which involves a lot of formulas and which very few people have actually done, it’d be fair to draw slightly different conclusions, but this is literally “looking at how fast my character swings” which pretty much anyone with eyes can do.

I can’t believe this hilarious thread has been going on for 3 pages and still going on strong

Jzaku.9765:

I can’t believe this hilarious thread has been going on for 3 pages and still going on strong

I’ll be sad when it finally does die.

haviz.1340:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

I did, but I don’t think you paid attention to where I put the words “if”. That’s to say that I do not know the absolute intention of the OP, but I’m assuming he confirmed my theory when he replied Yes afterwords. I could be wrong, and he could have meant that for someone else. I have no way of knowing. However I think anyone will admit that if his intent was to show that the 10% wasn’t as accurate as it appears, that he is correct. However that has, or at least should have, been known already by anyone caring to know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgMMxTofZ5A

Just leaving that there as a system that I wish gw2 had more of. The last time I used anything like this was with the mesmer. Haven’t tried with warrior, and I’m not even sure if it would work.

edit

The above link is about stutter stepping in LoL. It’s pretty essential, in my opinion, to be good with it if you want to get past maybe high gold. It’s a skill that’s relatively easy to learn, and enhances your damage significantly. Maybe there is a system like this in GW2, I’m really not sure.

No one here is saying that DWA is 10% but he is claiming that it’s essentially useless.

There is not stutter stepping in gw2 because of one simple reason – you can already move while attacking. In every game that technique was possible (including gw1 where it was called qstepping) your character couldn’t move and attack at the same time.

There used to be a way to cancel animation with Mesmer, but I don’t think it’s available anymore.

I remember in GW1 I pretty much mastered quarterknocking, it made pvp require much more skill. It was easy to tell the bad players from the good ones. That system doesn’t seem to have carried over into GW2 unfortunately. It’s one of the reasons I think GW2 is a good PvE game, but a bad PvP game. It doesn’t properly reward skilled play versus bad play. I remember when it first came out I would go through rotations on ele, and I became frustrated because for all of the perfect executions there were other professions that could preform equally just by spamming a single skill.

Youtube is limited to 30FPS through technology. I never said there was no difference I am just asserting the differences are small enough that I will 100% trust the accuracy of technology and my methods over the speed of human reflexes. And thats why I will always be more accurate.

If you have to see something 1st then press a button there will always be a delay between when you see something your brain process that information, you use some muscles then the strike a mechanical instrument that has a carry time.

And in this case you are not only doing that once but you are doing it twice then telling me your more accurate than technology. There will never be a 100% precise way to read this. But human reflexes is defiantly not more accurate. And that is the basis of your argument which is false.

That difference is much larger than anything you can argue at this point why continue.

1. So how much time is it from the first hit of the auto attack to the first hit of the auto attack of the next chain with and without DWA?

2. What % increase in overall attack rate is DWA?

3. Explain some way how that does not correlate to damage over time, if that is your contention.

If your contention is that it is a 6-8% IAR, and it correlates to a 6-8% dps increase, congratulations, we all agree and your puffery was completely wasted.

Quoted from wiki. BTW you need to make a distinction between game FPS and analog FPS. There is a difference between a games ability to display information on the screen and your ability perceive information that is displayed correctly.

The human eye and its brain interface, the human visual system, can process 10 to 12 separate images per second, perceiving them individually.¹ The threshold of human visual perception varies depending on what is being measured. When looking at a lighted display, people begin to notice a brief interruption of darkness if it is about 16 milliseconds or longer.² Observers can recall one specific image in an unbroken series of different images, each of which lasts as little as 13 milliseconds.³ When given very short single-millisecond visual stimulus people report a duration of between 100 ms and 400 ms due to persistence of vision in the visual cortex. This may cause images perceived in this duration to appear as one stimulus, such as a 10 ms green flash of light immediately followed by a 10 ms red flash of light perceived as a single yellow flash of light.⁴ Persistence of vision may also create an illusion of continuity, allowing a sequence of still images to give the impression of motion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate

So basically if you want to compare your 10-12 FPS and your human reflexes against 30fps and technology go for it but the troll comments are obvious of someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

Tree.3916:

1. So how much time is it from the first hit of the auto attack to the first hit of the auto attack of the next chain with and without DWA?

Its about a 10th of a second. Was about .09 Difference. or 9 hundredths of a second.

If you want to try a different test compare DWA and sigil of force.

do 10/30/0/0/30

with duel wielding.
deep strike, deep cuts, DWA
signet mastery,axe mastery,heightened focous

Use sigil of agony and sigil of accuracy on the DWA setup

Non DWA setup

do 10/30/0/0/30
deul wielding
deep strike, deep cuts, Furious
signet mastery,axe mastery,heightened focous
Use sigil of agony and sigil of force on the second setup

Reason why we are using deep cuts and agony is when we proc bleeding on crit we want to make sure we maintain that or you will get wrong results because of 10% damage to bleeding foes.

Also you have to make sure that in both tests the very 1st hit procs bleeding and that those bleeding stacks stay on the target for the entire duration of both tests.

I am fairly certain that you will see that its either a 5% DPS increase or less in fact.