Guild Wars 2

this guy needs more upvotes!

Curious as well. Fast Hands pretty much defines a warrior.

Even though some are still on the fence about wether or not Fast Hands should be baseline, everybody agrees we need some information on this matter.

Apparently they give a Kitten for warriors… :/

Well I wouldn’t say they dislike warriors, but they do have a very different view on what a warrior should be good at then most people here.

Some people keep on hoping that our specialization will fix everything. I am just annoyed about if that is the case, why won’t they just reveal it already.

Honestly though, taking a break from GW2 until the dust settles sounds pretty good to me right now.

Josh ANET says what warrior shouldn’t be good at.

ANET says warrior should be good at something it is not good at.

Why? To make warrior good at what ANET says it should be good at would mean other classes shouldn’t be better than what warrior does.

Josh ANET problem is they have double standards one they apply for warriors and another they apply for everyone else.

Apparently to Anet Long Bow is the most “defining skill” for the warrior profession, so they gave you a baseline 1200 range.

I suggest changing Warrior’s description here https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/warrior/
to something that reflects Anet vision like :

“Warriors are masters of Long Bow who rely on Celestial amulet, Shouts, War Horn, and Combustive shot to survive in battle. Adrenaline is always there fueling their cleansing super power, STR & ARMS trait lines are just there as noob traps —the longer warriors stay in a fight, the cheesy and boring they become.”

Because Josh is not stupid and not listening to everything someone else told him, especially the heavily biased group that tend to favor themselves.

But honestly, I’m shocked by the buff in Warrior’s LB and 0 improvement of Warrior’s rifle too. This is actually to my surprise. No improvement in axe off-hand is also surprising.

Why do we need a daily thread for this?

Fast Hands will never and should never be baseline. It’s fine the way it is, Discipline is a great trait line in general why wouldn’t you want to take it anyway? Hell Warrior’s Sprint alone is enough for most Warriors to always take it, never mind Burst Mastery, Brawler’s Recovery, Destruction of the Empowered, Heightened Focus, soon-to-be Merciless Hammer, etc.

Just listen. From 3:04:43 to 3:05:22.

Khenzy.9348:

Just listen. From 3:04:43 to 3:05:22.

“Illusionary persona is now baseline. The reason we are doing this change though is because we felt that illusionary persona was really forcing mesmers to go into the illusion line. I don’t think there were any pvp builds that didn’t use illusionary persona…at least no viable builds”

What they said about illusionary persona is fast hands in a nutshell. With that same logic, there is no reason fast hands should not be made baseline.

Good catch. Too bad they didn’t use the same logic with warrior. :/

Khenzy.9348:

Just listen. From 3:04:43 to 3:05:22.

Says it all really. Literally the exact same reasoning applies to Fast Hands.

Cygnus.6903:

Khenzy.9348:

Just listen. From 3:04:43 to 3:05:22.

Says it all really. Literally the exact same reasoning applies to Fast Hands.

With that principle there is 0 reasons to FH not be baseline.
But i guess no Devs will answer this.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Cygnus.6903:

Khenzy.9348:

Just listen. From 3:04:43 to 3:05:22.

Says it all really. Literally the exact same reasoning applies to Fast Hands.

With that principle there is 0 reasons to FH not be baseline.
But i guess no Devs will answer this.

In case of Developers going to answer this post, I’m gonna form a “mandatory baseline wish list”

Ranger:
Wilderness Knowledge. (The only form of cleanse ranger has, forcing all ranger to pick Wilderness Survival post patch)

Ele:
Evasive Arcane + Elemental Attunement. Same as FH, all Ele uses it.

Guardian:
All meditations related traits.

Note that the developers are using the word “viable pvp builds” So some niche useless specs should not used as an excuse to counter my argument.

Feel free to expand the list.

Read the Wind power ranger doesn’t trait into wilderness survival for condition removal.

Ele: Yeah

Guard: If you’re a meditation guardian…but that’s not the only viable guardian build. There is the altruistic healing guardian that takes shouts. And the virtue bunker which also takes shouts…So that definitely does not apply to guardian.

Toxsa.2701:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Cygnus.6903:

Khenzy.9348:

Just listen. From 3:04:43 to 3:05:22.

Says it all really. Literally the exact same reasoning applies to Fast Hands.

With that principle there is 0 reasons to FH not be baseline.
But i guess no Devs will answer this.

In case of Developers going to answer this post, I’m gonna form a “mandatory baseline wish list”

Ranger:
Wilderness Knowledge. (The only form of cleanse ranger has, forcing all ranger to pick Wilderness Survival post patch)

Ele:
Evasive Arcane + Elemental Attunement. Same as FH, all Ele uses it.

Guardian:
All meditations related traits.

Note that the developers are using the word “viable pvp builds” So some niche useless specs should not used as an excuse to counter my argument.

Feel free to expand the list.

You can create those treads in each profession forum you posted. Go ahead.

Kagamiku.9731:

Read the Wind power ranger doesn’t trait into wilderness survival for condition removal.

Ele: Yeah

Guard: If you’re a meditation guardian…but that’s not the only viable guardian build. There is the altruistic healing guardian that takes shouts. And the virtue bunker which also takes shouts…So that definitely does not apply to guardian.

Nope nope, post patch everyone will pick WS. LB ranger WILL pick WK 24/7. They didn’t pick it before only because “THEY CAN’T” due to traits limitation and all the spreading traits of LB. Now every ranger with their right mind will pick WK 100% of the time. Even TU is becoming a survival, there’s 0 reason a ranger wouldn’t take WK if they want to be “viable” in pvp.

For Guardian, shout is not really a viable build in this Meta. That’s why you only see Mediation Guardians nowadays. We’re talking about “viable builds” in PVP.

josh doesn’t know.. he’s not the designer..

Toxsa.2701:

snip

So you disagree with the argument they used to give Mesmers IP. That’s fine, but some of us don’t and we’re actually happy Mesmers received the trait.

Things like not enough Condi clear on a Ranger would be better handled by adding additional traits on other lines, skills, and pretty mechanics that reduce pressure on the trait path for rangers than making Condi management bsseline. I’d certainly support that of Condi management was coming ranger diversity.

As for fast hands, do you have an argument as to why it shouldn’t be baseline for warriors that goes beyond jealousy and sour grapes?

who is the designer for warriors? that is who we should be asking.

Choppy.4183:

Toxsa.2701:

snip

So you disagree with the argument they used to give Mesmers IP. That’s fine, but some of us don’t and we’re actually happy Mesmers received the trait.

Things like not enough Condi clear on a Ranger would be better handled by adding additional traits on other lines, skills, and pretty mechanics that reduce pressure on the trait path for rangers than making Condi management bsseline. I’d certainly support that of Condi management was coming ranger diversity.

As for fast hands, do you have an argument as to why it shouldn’t be baseline for warriors that goes beyond jealousy and sour grapes?

Hey, I change my mind. Instead of trying to persuade you guys, I decide to just buff all other classes to compensate each of the buffs anyone received. If everyone is buffed, then there’d be balance eventually. That’s why we should start forming a baseline wish list. If you’re disagreeing with me, it only shows that you’re the jealous one who doesn’t want good things happened to other classes :P.

Toxsa.2701:

Choppy.4183:

diversity.

As for fast hands, do you have an argument as to why it shouldn’t be baseline for warriors that goes beyond jealousy and sour grapes?

Hey, I change my mind. Instead of trying to persuade you guys, I decide to just buff all other classes to compensate each of the buffs anyone received. If everyone is buffed, then there’d be balance eventually. That’s why we should start forming a baseline wish list. If you’re disagreeing with me, it only shows that you’re the jealous one who doesn’t want good things happened to other classes :P.

So I’ll take that as a no to my question, and I guess we can also conclude you’re not able to keep up with the conversation. Good to know.

Like, it must be so hard to understand how to force 2-3 dodges when the Warrior switches to long bow and then burst.

It must be so hard to dodge arcing arrows or pin downs or skull cracks or anything that GS does.

It must be SO HARD to CC a Warrior before a Warrior can CC you due to the lack of instant cast.

Fear Me isn’t even a problem, that gets cleansed by other people anyways. It’s not like Necro Fear which they can overlap easily.

Even with those flaws, sure Warrior can still be strong. But those openings are what makes baseline Fast Hands balanced and not broken.

People who complain about Warriors like Toxsa are the same people who NEVER work on their mechanics and say “Warrior is OP because my reaction time is bad.” Learn to provide REAL arguments please. Sigh.

Does the logic provided by ArenaNet employees for “why Illusionary Persona was made baseline for Mesmer” apply to Fast Hands? Yes.

That’s the best argument made in this thread for making Fast Hands baseline. The rest are pretty useless.

My only question on this matter is whether or not there were other reasons. I ask this because I do see one other difference:

• Without Fast Hands, Warrior skills and Class Mechanic still work regardless of the situation.
• Without Illusionary Persona, Mesmer’s Class Mechanic was often useless in large fights as Illusions die to stray AOEs/Cleaves and a Mesmer with 0 Illusions and no Illusionary Persona was a Mesmer without a class mechanic.

As I’ve stated in another thread on here, I do think Fast Hands should either be made baseline or removed from the game … followed by whatever balancing is required.

Fast Hands is quite powerful which makes balancing the absence of it with the presence of it a bit of an issue. That issue is highlighted by the fact that all of the currently “viable” Warrior builds take Fast Hands.

Now, this could possibly change with the new specialization … but I’m not going to say that the new specializations change this issue … especially with 0 hours playtesting with them.

BlackTruth.6813:

Like, it must be so hard to understand how to force 2-3 dodges when the Warrior switches to long bow and then burst.

It must be so hard to dodge arcing arrows or pin downs or skull cracks or anything that GS does.

It must be SO HARD to CC a Warrior before a Warrior can CC you due to the lack of instant cast.

Fear Me isn’t even a problem, that gets cleansed by other people anyways. It’s not like Necro Fear which they can overlap easily.

Even with those flaws, sure Warrior can still be strong. But those openings are what makes baseline Fast Hands balanced and not broken.

People who complain about Warriors like Toxsa are the same people who NEVER work on their mechanics and say “Warrior is OP because my reaction time is bad.” Learn to provide REAL arguments please. Sigh.

As if it’s so hard to stall as Shoutbow Warrior for several minutes in 1 on 1 or 2 on 2. As if it’s such a hard class to spam F1 none stop for cleanse and node denial. With the most forgiving class in the world talking about the reaction time, as if you even need to dodge things despite you can just cleanse them and heal it back, period. I do play shoutbow, and it is literally the easiest spec to play and be successful without putting any effort in it, and people want that easy aspect to be baseline. (CI and FH) You ask for those buffs because you don’t want to manage your timing, you want passive proc, you want passive cleanse. Seriously try posting those NS in PVP forum and see how people would react to you instead of living in your small Warrior world.

Also still 0 counter-argument as to why other classes getting same treatment will break the other classes.

Toxsa.2701:

Nope nope, post patch everyone will pick WS. LB ranger WILL pick WK 24/7. They didn’t pick it before only because “THEY CAN’T” due to traits limitation and all the spreading traits of LB. Now every ranger with their right mind will pick WK 100% of the time. Even TU is becoming a survival, there’s 0 reason a ranger wouldn’t take WK if they want to be “viable” in pvp.

Yes, yes. They could take condition removal through nature magic if they wanted to use the survival of the fittest build. Just because they’re getting a boatload of baseline traits doesn’t mean they were not viable without the condition removal, it just means they will be stronger post-patch.

You’re also comparing a class that has been fine without it who will pick it more often post-patch, to a class that has never been fine without it. Rangers have three years of selecting the same essential trait for their build before they catch up to warriors need of fast hands.

For Guardian, shout is not really a viable build in this Meta. That’s why you only see Mediation Guardians nowadays. We’re talking about “viable builds” in PVP.

It is viable, that’s why it’s on metabattle with a 4.75/5 rating. I see them all the time. They’re very viable in solo and teamque. If we’re talking tournaments…well, only few builds are really picked there. And some classes aren’t picked at all, but that’s not what a class should be based around. The biggest issue is how certain classes counter other classes,s o it throws those classes out of the meta.

You won’t see anything on metabattle without fast hands, that’s for sure!

Kagamiku.9731:

Toxsa.2701:

Nope nope, post patch everyone will pick WS. LB ranger WILL pick WK 24/7. They didn’t pick it before only because “THEY CAN’T” due to traits limitation and all the spreading traits of LB. Now every ranger with their right mind will pick WK 100% of the time. Even TU is becoming a survival, there’s 0 reason a ranger wouldn’t take WK if they want to be “viable” in pvp.

Yes, yes. They could take condition removal through nature magic if they wanted to use the survival of the fittest build. Just because they’re getting a boatload of baseline traits doesn’t mean they were not viable without the condition removal, it just means they will be stronger post-patch.

You’re also comparing a class that has been fine without it who will pick it more often post-patch, to a class that has never been fine without it. Rangers have three years of selecting the same essential trait for their build before they catch up to warriors need of fast hands.

For Guardian, shout is not really a viable build in this Meta. That’s why you only see Mediation Guardians nowadays. We’re talking about “viable builds” in PVP.

It is viable, that’s why it’s on metabattle with a 4.75/5 rating. I see them all the time. They’re very viable in solo and teamque. If we’re talking tournaments…well, only few builds are really picked them. And some classes aren’t picked at all, but that’s not what a class should be based around. The biggest issue is how certain classes counter other classes,s o it throws those classes out of the meta.

You won’t see anything on metabattle without fast hands, that’s for sure!

You’re outdated mate. SotF is now the new Wilderness Knowledge, and they’re squishing it into Wilderness Survival, making WS to only trait-line that has cleanse for ranger. It’s basically a must pick in any PVP mode.

I read every single changes of every single classes already. (Because I play all classes and care for them all) Since the update will launch at Next Tuesday, please use the updated infor.

Why does its placement matter? If people want condition removal then they now trait into wilderness survival rather than nature magic. The fact remains that rangers have been able to play power ranger without any condition removal at all.

Kagamiku.9731:

Why does its placement matter? If people want condition removal then they now trait into wilderness survival rather than nature magic. The fact remains that rangers have been able to play power ranger without any condition removal at all.

Maybe that’s the exact reason why all their builds are not viable in the first place before the update :P (Picking Nature is such a big sacrifice in terms of stats and possible traits selection, making it more of a condition oriented spec. The problem is all their must have traits are stuck in GM spot, but now the 3 full trait lines system solve this)

Now they’d “potentially” be “viable” after picking WK. Any real build will work around WK because that’s literally the only aspect of cleanse ranger has in terms of traits. Btw, I need to repeat this, Nature Magic no longer has any cleanse. It’s just WS now.

Sebrent.3625:

Does the logic provided by ArenaNet employees for “why Illusionary Persona was made baseline for Mesmer” apply to Fast Hands? Yes.

That’s the best argument made in this thread for making Fast Hands baseline. The rest are pretty useless.

My only question on this matter is whether or not there were other reasons. I ask this because I do see one other difference:

• Without Fast Hands, Warrior skills and Class Mechanic still work regardless of the situation. *
• Without Illusionary Persona, Mesmer’s Class Mechanic was often useless in large fights as Illusions die to stray AOEs/Cleaves and a Mesmer with 0 Illusions and no Illusionary Persona was a Mesmer without a class mechanic.*

As I’ve stated in another thread on here, I do think Fast Hands should either be made baseline or removed from the game … followed by whatever balancing is required.

Fast Hands is quite powerful which makes balancing the absence of it with the presence of it a bit of an issue. That issue is highlighted by the fact that all of the currently “viable” Warrior builds take Fast Hands.

Now, this could possibly change with the new specialization … but I’m not going to say that the new specializations change this issue … especially with 0 hours playtesting with them.

That’s not really a good argument IMO. So mesmers are bad in large fights, so are thieves. Doesn’t mean you need to make IP baseline.

Warrior skills work without FH, sure. So do mesmer skills without IP. Even in large fights. Only not often.

Does that make the mesmer unplayable in PvP? No.

Now look at fast hands. Remove it from any warrior build, and you make it underpowered.

Am I against making IP baseline? Hell no actually. Do I think mesmers will be incredibly powerful, especially in 1v1 after the patch? I don’t, I know they will be. In fact, even without IP baseline now, they already are. Still, IP baseline is fine by me, as it did hinder build variety a lot.

Btw, I know your opinion on making FH baseline. I just didn’t see a single decent argument against it yet on this forum.

How is it that Toxsa thinks making the case that warriors should have FH baseline requires us to argue other classes shouldn’t have other things baseline? Most of us have already said we support mesmers getting IP baselined.

Obviously, the case for any proposal has to be made on its own merits. Anet explained their rationale for making IP baseline and it obviously applies to FH too. If he wants to make the case that the argument also applies to other classes, what does that have to do with the FH proposal? Nothing.

@Cygnus:
I think you missed the point.

I didn’t say anything about Mesmers being good/bad in large fights.

I did say that with 0 illusions and no Illusionary Persona, a Mesmer does not have a class mechanic … shatters do nothing in that scenario.

Regardless of whether or not a Warrior has Fast Hands, their burst skills don’t “do nothing”.

I only brought this up to explain a possible bit of reasoning that ArenaNet may have had … hence the wording I used in my previous post.

Now to the rest of my previous post … I wasn’t saying that this lone reason was why they shouldn’t be made baseline … in fact, if you read the whole post, I said that Fast Hands should either be made baseline or removed from the game and the Warrior balanced around whichever one is done.

Is there something wrong with that opinion?
Is there something you disagree with there?

I do hope FastHands becomes baseline, and that Warrior’s Sprint take its place as minor-master trait in the Discipline tree.

That way, I can at least keep up some semblance of maneuverability when equipped with a rifle.
And after all, Engineers get to keep their perma (+33%) swiftness.

So sad that from Tuesday my rifle will only be viable in a group setting, at little above walking speed ..
the Future Vision of WvW Rifles

It should be baseline. Honestly nothing defines warrior more atm.

Fands hands is powerfull trait. Incredible powerfull with some swap sigils. That + strong warrior thoughness, hp, invul, stability etc = real powerfull. Not to be rude but making that baseline +20 extra traits points to spend and spend all the 90 in another line then you should (discipline for fast hands) would make a 110 traits strong builds.

Everyone who thinks Illusionary persona is even partly as good as fast hands is totally mistaken. Also it’s a superior strong melee<>range switche. 10 seconds in most fights is to long to stay in melee or range. If it happens you are locked 3-7 secs to long in one of them. With fast hands this next to never happens. You can switch like a dancer. That alone makes it incredible value, let alone the swap sigil advantage. Sure engie gets also fast swap BUT only has 1 weapon (same as engie). Warrior is only prof that can abuse 4 sigils but super fast weapon swap. That alone uniqueness + other warrior advantages would simply make it overpowered.

If this trait is so powerfull to you just take it. It’s minor for god sake! Doesn’t even remove your choices! But don’t expect this superior powerfull minor AND 90 points to spend in completely different trees. That would mean you basically only miss 1 trait line… of the 5. To powerfull. You want an over the top of the line build, but you know it’s op, you still wish it. Just don’t If anything, this is good for you guys cause it warrants less 50% nerfs.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Fands hands is powerfull trait. Incredible powerfull with some swap sigils. That + strong warrior thoughness, hp, invul, stability etc = real powerfull. Not to be rude but making that baseline +20 extra traits points to spend and spend all the 90 in another line then you should (discipline for fast hands) would make a 110 traits strong builds.

Everyone who thinks Illusionary persona is even partly as good as fast hands is totally mistaken. Also it’s a superior strong melee<>range switche. 10 seconds in most fights is to long to stay in melee or range. If it happens you are locked 3-7 secs to long in one of them. With fast hands this next to never happens. You can switch like a dancer. That alone makes it incredible value, let alone the swap sigil advantage. Sure engie gets also fast swap BUT only has 1 weapon (same as engie). Warrior is only prof that can abuse 4 sigils but super fast weapon swap. That alone uniqueness + other warrior advantages would simply make it overpowered.

If this trait is so powerfull to you just take it. It’s minor for god sake! Doesn’t even remove your choices! But don’t expect this superior powerfull minor AND 90 points to spend in completely different trees. That would mean you basically only miss 1 trait line… of the 5. To powerfull. You want an over the top of the line build, but you know it’s op, you still wish it. Just don’t If anything, this is good for you guys cause it warrants less 50% nerfs.

There are a few things you have to consider:

First, practically all warriors already run FH now, certainly in pvp but in pve too. Despite this, warriors aren’t overpowered in relation to other classes regardless of how powerful FH is and the benefit it brings with respect to sigils. Meaning, the fact that FH is powerful isn’t an argument against making FH baseline because the class has already been balanced around all warriors running it.

Second, once the new trait system is in place, warriors will have to sink 1/3 of their traits into Discipline in order to maintain this balance. Discipline is a very good line in and of itself, but the inclusion of FH in it does nothing but reduce the diversity of warriors of all types (condi, bunker, dps, whatever) because all of them will have to trait Discipline to be viable.

Third, if freeing all warriors from the need to trait Discipline means some overpowered builds will be possible, then changes should be made to nerf those specific builds to restore balance. No question.

Fourth, nobody should be in favour of limited build diversity for the builds they play or the builds they play against. It just makes the game stale and boring. Making FH baseline contributes relatively little to power creep for the class, arguably less than making IP baseline did for Mesmers. Still, making them both baseline is the right thing to do, and the justification for each stands on its own merits.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Fands hands is powerfull trait. Incredible powerfull with some swap sigils. That + strong warrior thoughness, hp, invul, stability etc = real powerfull. Not to be rude but making that baseline +20 extra traits points to spend and spend all the 90 in another line then you should (discipline for fast hands) would make a 110 traits strong builds.

Everyone who thinks Illusionary persona is even partly as good as fast hands is totally mistaken. Also it’s a superior strong melee<>range switche. 10 seconds in most fights is to long to stay in melee or range. If it happens you are locked 3-7 secs to long in one of them. With fast hands this next to never happens. You can switch like a dancer. That alone makes it incredible value, let alone the swap sigil advantage. Sure engie gets also fast swap BUT only has 1 weapon (same as engie). Warrior is only prof that can abuse 4 sigils but super fast weapon swap. That alone uniqueness + other warrior advantages would simply make it overpowered.

If this trait is so powerfull to you just take it. It’s minor for god sake! Doesn’t even remove your choices! But don’t expect this superior powerfull minor AND 90 points to spend in completely different trees. That would mean you basically only miss 1 trait line… of the 5. To powerfull. You want an over the top of the line build, but you know it’s op, you still wish it. Just don’t If anything, this is good for you guys cause it warrants less 50% nerfs.

That’s a lot of words for making a dump argument.
You do know many players will choose this trait line anyway, so it’s ‘like’ they actually do have 90 points to spent freely. So you are basically saying that all of those warrior are too OP? that’s sit perfectly with why warrior only viable build is the dumb support role of shoutbow.

No one wants over the top nothing, we just want valid build options, with all the hump and bumps eles, engies and mesmers going about I am very doubtful that warrior could be anything else but that boring shoutbow.
So thank u, L2P, go wine in some other forum.

Y u no gimme fast hands baseline ;-(

I highly doubt making Fast Hands baseline is going to make warriors magically OP. Discipline without Fast Hands is still one of the better traitlines. Tactics and Arms are only viable for certain select builds. By going into Arms it pretty much means you are some sort of hybrid or condi build. Going into Tactics pretty much means you sacrifice alot of damage output for sustainability/support.

Most hammer builds will utilize discipline anyway. Versatile Rage and Power are great traits. Burst Mastery is amazing. Merciless Hammer is very strong, DotE, Brawler’s Recovery, Warrior’s Sprint. Discipline has a wealth of amazing traits and is too all-around for people not to choose it even if Fast Hand’s is baseline.

Sure you can go Strength/Defense/Tactics but if you drop discipline you lose a lot of that adrenaline gain/usage, 25% perma movement speed, movement skills ignoring immobilize and perhaps some damage or condi removal.

You CAN make builds that work without it.

If they actually balanced their game, it does distort class balance by existing, as it adds so much potency by enabling double-sigils. This does create the problem that it becomes so strong that you ARE almost always forced to take this line, reasonably.

At the end of the day, they don’t really care about core problems like this, because “warrior” isn’t “engineer.” Warrior did get quite a bit of love and interesting stuff with trait redesign, but they did ignore some core logical flaws in many class’s design.

Sebrent.3625:

Is there something wrong with that opinion?
Is there something you disagree with there?

Yeah, I’m done.

Reason why illusionary persona was made baseline was so all mesmers will see point of using they class core mechanic. Without IP it’s close to no point to shatter in most situations and there are 2 builds for mesmer eather phantasm or shatter . And phantasm is not viable so if you want to play mesmer you need to go full into illusions and 4 into duelling atm and rest 4 points are up to you xd so ur locked out from all other grandmasters.

Cygnus.6903:

Sebrent.3625:

Is there something wrong with that opinion?
Is there something you disagree with there?

Yeah, I’m done.

Why?
Because you’d only be happy with it being baseline?
You wouldn’t be okay with FH disappearing and Warrior rebalanced from there?

Both options would help with build diversity, which is the reason people are claiming they want it baselined.

If you are unwilling to explain in a logical manner, then I can’t help but wonder why you spoke up in the first place. Might as well have just posted “I want it baseline” as that is all you’re conveying.

Sebrent.3625:

@Cygnus:
I think you missed the point.

I didn’t say anything about Mesmers being good/bad in large fights.

I did say that with 0 illusions and no Illusionary Persona, a Mesmer does not have a class mechanic … shatters do nothing in that scenario.

-If a warrior dont have adrenaline and no FH then warrior also dont have a class mechanic …burst skills dont do nothing in that scenario.

Regardless of whether or not a Warrior has Fast Hands, their burst skills don’t “do nothing”.
-Without adrenaline they dont do nothing

I only brought this up to explain a possible bit of reasoning that ArenaNet may have had … hence the wording I used in my previous post.

Now to the rest of my previous post … I wasn’t saying that this lone reason was why they shouldn’t be made baseline … in fact, if you read the whole post, I said that Fast Hands should either be made baseline or removed from the game and the Warrior balanced around whichever one is done.

Is there something wrong with that opinion?
Is there something you disagree with there?

Just to clear some false statement in this post.
IP on warrior is like the use of burst skills without adrenaline.

@Silentnight Warrior:
Aye, I worded that horribly.

I was trying to convey that Fast Hands doesn’t make a class mechanic go from “doing nothing” to “doing something”. While it and Illusionary Persona are both auto-includes, Warrior isn’t losing Adrenaline due to some stray AOEs/Cleaves while Mesmer is. So it’s a bit more important for the Mesmer to not have their class mechanic made non-functional in large fights if they don’t have a single GM trait. The presence or absence of Fast Hands doesn’t do anything like this.

I agree that IP on Warrior would be like allowing <10 adrenaline (0 bars) to function as 10 – 19 adrenaline (1 bar). Not really necessary … though, I would be curious about people’s opinions on that versus the adrenaline when-hit from Cleansing Ire (previously Embrace the Pain).

That being said, please don’t forget the parts of my posts that say that I agree.

Using ArenaNet’s logic for why they made IP baseline, that logic does apply to Fast Hands.

I think ArenaNet should either:

• make Fast Hands baseline and balance Warrior from there
• or remove Fast Hands and balance Warrior from there

It’s been discussed to death … or is there some new point that has been brought up that makes this thought worth revisiting?

@Sebrent

Happens to everyone.

While FH doesn’t fill adrenaline by it self, Versatile Rage is a trait that helps warrior build adrenaline by swaping weapons.
FH is essencial to warrior class mechanic and no warrior build till now is/was OP for that reason.

Its been discussed to death and almost everyone, with some exceptions, think that ANet should make FH baseline and balance from there (the same they are doing with mesmers).

So as you say, i dont think that new point as been brought up and thats why OP was asking the Devs why they dont do what they should do.

Best regards

Sebrent.3625:

Cygnus.6903:

Sebrent.3625:

Is there something wrong with that opinion?
Is there something you disagree with there?

Yeah, I’m done.

Why?
Because you’d only be happy with it being baseline?
You wouldn’t be okay with FH disappearing and Warrior rebalanced from there?

Both options would help with build diversity, which is the reason people are claiming they want it baselined.

If you are unwilling to explain in a logical manner, then I can’t help but wonder why you spoke up in the first place. Might as well have just posted “I want it baseline” as that is all you’re conveying.

I’m done when you start snapping at me, even though we agree.

Lol. First post didn’t snap at you. Nor did the second.

But you’re free to read it however you want and give whatever “reasons” you want for not providing support for your opinion.

I agree though, we don’t seem to disagree on what should be done with Fast Hands … unless you’re against the possibility of it being removed and Warrior rebalanced around no Fast Hands.

Sebrent.3625:

I agree though, we don’t seem to disagree on what should be done with Fast Hands … unless you’re against the possibility of it being removed and Warrior rebalanced around no Fast Hands.

This is not a good idea simply because it is far harder to balance warrior without fast hands then it is to make fast hands baseline. It could take multiple balance changes to get it right. Warrior would need a serious overhaul. And Anet isn’t known for their fast and timely balance updates.