It’s not general potential damage, nor is it way higher. Gz for not understanding? Power hits harder, even on 2600 armor targets. In fact, that ranger would hit harder on 3k armor. It’s doing over 50% more damage (average including crits + non crits) than a necro, on 2600 armor.
Right now it seems like you’re deliberately choosing to ignore the facts.
And that’s why you see pvp flooded with power rangers. So much ignorance is rare…
And that’s why you see pvp flooded with power rangers. So much ignorance is rare…
I’m not the one saying damage is everything. Once again, for the slow, all I have said is that this statement:
The general potential damage of a condition applying attack is way higher than that of a single power attack
is untrue.
Not to mention that the number of misinformed people in this thread who think that condis hit harder probably goes a long way to explaining why condi builds are actually seeing play again. What’s the phrase? Perception of balance?
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
And that’s why you see pvp flooded with power rangers. So much ignorance is rare…
I’m not the one saying damage is everything. Once again, for the slow, all I have said is that this statement:
The general potential damage of a condition applying attack is way higher than that of a single power attack
is untrue.
Not to mention that the number of misinformed people in this thread who think that condis hit harder probably goes a very long way to explaining why power builds no longer make up the entire meta. What’s the phrase? Perception of balance?
Which is not true as our numbers have shown. You had an example of doing 4.6k dmg with certain buffs vs the cond example of 8.5k dmg.
We showed you as another example pin down which is a single attack with 1/4 cast time and doing 20k+ dmg.
And false information? All my posts include very detailed calculations with actually stats – so they are very easy to reproduce and to proof them correct.
Which is not true as our numbers have shown. You had an example of doing 4.6k dmg with certain buffs vs the cond example of 8.3k dmg.
We showed you as another example pin down which is a single attack with 1/4 cast time and doing 20k+ dmg.
Your 8.3k was on a light golem. On a light golem power ranger with air rune does the same. Pin down doing 20k isn’t “way higher” than kill shot, it’s on par. And you’ve done nothing to address the “general” part of the statement, where I showed you that condi necros hit for 1109 damage on average with AA, a number that any power build kittens on, including hybrid staff guards. Their biggest hit averages ~3.5k, plus 250 from procs. You’re arguing for the sake of arguing. Everything you have posted has proved the statement under discussion to be untrue.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
And that’s why you see pvp flooded with power rangers. So much ignorance is rare…
I’m not the one saying damage is everything. Once again, for the slow, all I have said is that this statement:
The general potential damage of a condition applying attack is way higher than that of a single power attack
is untrue.
Not to mention that the number of misinformed people in this thread who think that condis hit harder probably goes a very long way to explaining why power builds no longer make up the entire meta. What’s the phrase? Perception of balance?
Which is not true as our numbers have shown. You had an example of doing 4.6k dmg with certain buffs vs the cond example of 8.3k dmg.
We showed you as another example pin down which is a single attack with 1/4 cast time and doing 20k+ dmg.
Your 8.3k was on a light golem. On a light golem power ranger with air rune does the same. Pin down doing 20k isn’t much higher than kill shot. And you’ve done nothing to address the general part of the statement, where I showed you that condi necros hit for 1109 damage on average, a number that any power build kittens on, including hybrid staff guards. You’re arguing for the sake of arguing. Everything you have posted has proved the statement under discussion to be untrue.
lol ? my cond example came from a light golem? Ever heard about conds being unmitigatable?
First I never said anything from light or heavy golem and second all you showed us was auta attacks…
And in which world does kill shot 20k dmg?
lol ? my cond example came from a light golem? Ever heard about conds being unmitigatable?
First I never said anything from light or heavy golem and second all you showed us was auta attacks…
It’s irrelevant. You want potential damage, that means no cleanses? It also means 1836 armor, which is actually less than the light golem.
Oh sorry btw, my mistake. A condi necros biggest hit averages 3.9k plus 250 from procs. 4.15k total. But power builds do less right? Not sure about engi, maybe you could do the math on that one.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Even though you have 0 proof for that – your dmg over time is significantly lover either way and the fact that your dmg needs several buffs and my dmg is mostly coming from a burning proc with 10s icd still remains the same.
Even though you have 0 proof for that – your dmg over time is significantly lover either way and the fact that your dmg needs several buffs and my dmg is mostly coming from a burning proc with 10s icd still remains the same.
0 proof of what? 4080 damage from a burning proc is less than 400 dps btw. If we’re talking ‘over time’.
‘Mostly’ isn’t good enough either. It’s either 8.3k or it’s not. Do you want to count the triple proc and incendiary ammo or don’t you? You can’t have it both ways.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Even though you have 0 proof for that – your dmg over time is significantly lover either way and the fact that your dmg needs several buffs and my dmg is mostly coming from a burning proc with 10s icd still remains the same.
0 proof of what? 4080 damage from a burning proc is less than 400 dps btw. If we’re talking ‘over time’.
‘Mostly’ isn’t good enough either. It’s either 8.3k or it’s not. Do you want to count the triple proc and incendiary ammo or don’t you? You can’t have it both ways.
8.3k is possible but even when you’re not that lucky to get it all at once your dmg is still very high which makes my example not even deal more dmg but also much more realistic or are you always auto attacking with signet of the hunt active?
and edit: 4080 dmg coming from a 6s burning proc is in my world 680 dps but I don’t know where you went to school…
If you’re saying it’s weak cause of the 10s icd than you call a single trait doing 400dps weak – which would make you look even more stupid…
And that’s why you see pvp flooded with power rangers. So much ignorance is rare…
conditions have some advantages against direct damage:
constant damage against every enemy
they apply their damage over time
most important people don’t know how to deal with them
But they have some drawbacks:
they are not stronger then Direct damage
they need time to stack
can be removed, and also prevented like direct damage (dodge, block, invulnerability, …)
What a lot of people don’t understand is that you have to do something against conditions early and not when the whole stack is applied and you have 25% life left.
8.3k is possible but even when you’re not that lucky to get it all at once your dmg is still very high which makes my example not even deal more dmg but also much more realistic or are you always auto attacking with signet of the hunt active?
and edit: 4080 dmg coming from a 6s burning proc is in my world 680 dps but I don’t know where you went to school…
If you’re saying it’s weak cause of the 10s icd than you call a single trait doing 400dps weak – which would make you look even more stupid…
Yeah it’s less than 400 dps including the ICD. Now, since you seem to want to talk about sustained damage instead of christmasland, go ahead and post that engi builds dps. How much damage does each hit get from procs on average? What is the biggest single attack it has when you factor that in? How does that stack up to any random power build?
Once again, do the math, then tell me if the sustained damage is high, not the other way round, because if you’re counting solely on that 400 dps trait to get good sustained damage, I’d suggest you look at those ranger screenshots again. When you’re talking facts, no one is interested in what you feel to be the case, only what is the case.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
8.3k is possible but even when you’re not that lucky to get it all at once your dmg is still very high which makes my example not even deal more dmg but also much more realistic or are you always auto attacking with signet of the hunt active?
and edit: 4080 dmg coming from a 6s burning proc is in my world 680 dps but I don’t know where you went to school…
If you’re saying it’s weak cause of the 10s icd than you call a single trait doing 400dps weak – which would make you look even more stupid…
Yeah it’s less than 400 dps including the ICD. Now, since you seem to want to talk about sustained damage instead of christmasland, go ahead and post that engi builds dps. How much damage does each hit get from procs on average? What is the biggest single attack it has when you factor that in? How does that stack up to any random power build? Once again, do the math, then tell me if the sustained damage is high, not the other way round, because if you’re counting solely on that 400 dps trait to get good sustained damage, I’d suggest you look at those ranger screenshots again.
Since 90% of the people who have posted (see first page) agree with the op and myself I really don’t see the need to waste even more time.
You will disagree no matter how simple it is (I already learned that) and you will come up with some made up bs —> like a linked combat log line showing your dmg from an attack which is highly affected by buffing and debuffing though I stated that my example does not include such things just so you can prove your point under false circumstances.
Sorry but I don’t see the sense in that.^^ If you do not agree with me, the op or pretty much everyone else that’s your problem not mine.
Since 90% of the people who have posted agree with the op and myself I really don’t see the need to waste even more time.
You will disagree no matter how simple it is (I already learned that) and you will come up with some made up bs —> like a linked combat log line showing your dmg from an attack which is highly affected by buffing and debuffing though I stated that my example does not include such things just so you can prove you point under false circumstances.
Sorry but I don’t see the sense in that.^^ If you do not agree you can with me, the op or pretty much everyone else that’s your problem not mine.
All that says is that 90% of people haven’t done the math. I’d be surprised if they had. Really surprised considering the general lack of game knowledge this forum tends to demonstrate.
And please don’t pretend to yourself that your fairytale 1 in 101 attacks example is somehow better than my self buffed example simply because it relies on random procs happening all together instead of activating abilities. If you want to talk sustained, talk sustained. If you want to talk peak, well, we already did.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
I’ll try to explain it to you one last time. The problem we are trying to explain is the “fire and forget” game play of cond classes. They attack you with 2-3 skills and the dmg is so high that you are very likely to die if you can’t cleanse yourself.
Examples:
Engi does: blowtorch + poison dart —> kills heavy golem
Engi does: poison grenade --> kills heavy golem (you could add a shrapnel grenade for the over kill if you don’t wanna wait for the whole poison minute)
warrior does: pin down —> kills heavy golem
etc…
And it’s not like the skills are hard to bring on or have huge CD’s. It’s not like kill shot having huge cast times and they don’t need to be set up by using several buffs. You do your cond skills then you play defensively and if your target survives than just do it again after 10s or so – if not take the next target.
A power class has to be always attacking to bring on their dmg and that’s the whole freaking unbalanced point. And why is that? Because the potential dmg of such cond attack is too high. If you would reduce the potential damage by reducing the duration but at the same time NOT nerfing the actual dps by reducing the CD the result would be a cond class still killing with the same ttk but having to attack their target like a power class.
If you still do not understand my point I’m actually sorry for you.
We are not saying that power dmg is too low when standing next to the target with 0 movement and with 0 pressure.
I’ll try to explain it to you one last time. The problem we are trying to explain is the “fire and forget” game play of cond classes. They attack you with 2-3 skills and the dmg is so high that you are very likely to die if you can’t cleanse yourself.
Examples:
Engi does: blowtorch + poison dart —> kills heavy golem
Engi does: poison grenade --> kills heavy golem (you could add a shrapnel grenade for the over kill if you don’t wanna wait for the whole poison minute)
warrior does: pin down —> kills heavy golem
etc…
We’ve been over this. The highest damage you could come up with for an engi was 8.3k, self buffed, crit, with three procs at once. A ranger can do 8.3k, self buffed, crit, with one proc. Most likely more than that to be honest, since that was just a quick test, I highly doubt I reached the maximum. Damage per attack is not higher with condis. In general, it’s a fair bit lower. There’s nothing much else to say about it.
Perhaps you should be complaining about the fire and forget nature of direct damage, because condi classes need more time on target to deal the same amount of damage.
I’m not opposed to reducing condition durations without reducing dps btw, although that would be a gigantic buff to condi classes. I’m simply opposed to bad information.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
So you still say that you can kill a heavy golem with less effort with a power class than with cond class?
Did you read the part that one pin down kills the target. One poison grenade? Or one blowtorch + poison dart?
I wanna hear some example of powers classes killing THAT easy a heavy golem. Please enlighten all of us. And with that easy I mean skills with prior buffs/debuffs, no long cast time or easy to avoid skills like 100b, kill shot etc…
And a heavy golem is a could target when comparing to actual player toughness in form of hps and armor when not going full glassy.
So you still say that you can kill a heavy golem with less effort with a power class than with cond class?
Did you read the part that one pin down kills the target. One poison grenade? Or one blowtorch + poison dart?
I wanna hear some example of powers classes killing THAT easy a heavy golem. Please enlighten all of us.
Why are you talking about heavy golems? We’ve been over this too. If you want no cleanses, you accept minimum armor. Minimum condi damage mitigation vs minimum power damage mitigation, otherwise the comparison is flawed. If you want to talk about ‘actual players’ armor, you have to talk about ‘actual players’ cleanses.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
So you still say that you can kill a heavy golem with less effort with a power class than with cond class?
Did you read the part that one pin down kills the target. One poison grenade? Or one blowtorch + poison dart?
I wanna hear some example of powers classes killing THAT easy a heavy golem. Please enlighten all of us.
Why are you talking about heavy golems? We’ve been over this too. If you want no cleanses, you accept minimum armor. Minimum damage mitigation vs minimum damage mitigation, otherwise the comparison is flawed.
Because that’s what the thread is all about. Maybe you should go back to the beginning and read it very carefully. It says that cond dmg is too strong when no cleanses are available. But most classes run around with cleric/ rabid or have high base armor like warrior, which makes your point look stupid.
edit: maybe you should open a thread saying that power dmg is too high when noone runs around with toughness.
Because that’s what the thread is all about. Maybe you should go back to the beginning and read it very carefully. It says that cond dmg is too strong when no cleanses are available. But most classes run around with cleric/ rabid or have high base armor like warrior.
Sorry, you’re trying to stack the comparison. ‘Most classes’ bring condi removal. You’re either comparing maximum damage, i.e no armor, no cleanses, or real damage, which means armor and cleanses.
If you want to compare high armor targets with no cleanses, well, I’ve already covered that on the previous page too.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
So you still say that you can kill a heavy golem with less effort with a power class than with cond class?
Did you read the part that one pin down kills the target. One poison grenade? Or one blowtorch + poison dart?
I wanna hear some example of powers classes killing THAT easy a heavy golem. Please enlighten all of us.
Why are you talking about heavy golems? We’ve been over this too. If you want no cleanses, you accept minimum armor. Minimum damage mitigation vs minimum damage mitigation, otherwise the comparison is flawed.
Because that’s what the thread is all about. Maybe you should go back to the beginning and read it very carefully. It says that cond dmg is too strong when no cleanses are available. But most classes run around with cleric/ rabid or have high base armor like warrior.
The fact that a small bit of super long duration condition dmg can kill golem isn’t that relevant in any serious fight with cleansing available.
But it’s also a product of just how much dmg there is in this game. Power dmg is also incredibly high, the TTK in general is just TINY in this game lol.
Because that’s what the thread is all about. Maybe you should go back to the beginning and read it very carefully. It says that cond dmg is too strong when no cleanses are available. But most classes run around with cleric/ rabid or have high base armor like warrior.
Sorry, you’re trying to stack the comparison. Most classes bring condi removal. If you want to compare high armor targets with no cleanses, well, I’ve already covered that too.
If you have “covered” that than tell me again how easy you kill a heavy golem. I only read about a single attack buffed into stupidity doing 4.6k dmg. Noone dies from taking once 4.6k dmg.
On the other side people DO die from getting hit by a pin down or a blowtorch+poison dart etc…
This dependency and interaction between damaging conditions and cleanses, however, creates an environment where conditions have to be cleansed in order to be balanced. Instances where they can not be cleansed reliably will put their effect beyond what was intended (an oversimplified example to visualize the above: if I hit a meta build D/P thief with a Pin Down right after he used Hide in Shadows, which puts him back at 100% HPs, he will die from this single attack. He can run, hide and avoid any other attack I’ll follow up with, but unless he gets back to his guardian for a cleanse, the potential damage of that range attack will be enough to take him from 100 to 0).
Just to fresh up your mind in case you have forgotten what we are talking about.
So we finally have reached the point were we make “everyone else should stop sucking” arguments. Took some time for you put you finally made it.
Sorry, relevance? Since you seem to have missed it, the point is that you’re trying to talk about real targets when it comes to power damage, and zero defense targets when it comes to condition damage. After this whole thread, you’re still trying to have it both ways.
If you’re unwilling to do a balanced comparison, you’re going to keep getting incorrect results. I mean a golem isn’t ever going to be a balanced comparison anyway, since they actually do have some armor (since power attacks would do infinite damage to them otherwise), but they have no cleanses and will stand in a poison field for the entire duration, but they’re easy to use. Still not weighted enough to give you the result you want, so you’re trying to skew it further. This is the problem with making up your mind before you actually do the math.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Yes when fighting real targets the situation appears that you run out of cleanses (but it will never happen that you have no toughness from your amulet).
And this whole thread is about that conds are too strong in these situations in which you have no cleanses. That’s all.
If you have no cleanses and get hit by 1-2 wrong abilities you are kittened and that shouldnt be the case and that’s unbalanced compared to power abilities.
Duuuuude!!! That’s the whole point – potential dmg – so no cleanse!
I think you might be getting it very slowly.
OK, so you posted an ability that will never do as much as killshot, but hypothetically can. Well done.
Now for this:
The general potential damage of a condition applying attack is way higher than that of a single power attack
Kill shot will not do that much damage in spvp. You hit around 13k to 15k on glass cannons, but that requires you to be a full glass cannon as well. You also need to build all your traits over the burst dmg to get that high damage, and even then it’s possible that you do not crit.
The true issue is how easily the massive potential damage of condition based skills is aquired. You do not need to sacrifice defense at all.
Yes when fighting real targets the situation appears that you run out of cleanses (but it will never happen that you have no toughness from your amulet).
And this whole thread is about that conds are too strong in these situations in which you have no cleanses. That’s all.
If you have no cleanses and get hit by 1-2 wrong abilities you are kittened and that shouldnt be the case and that’s unbalanced compared to power abilities.
OK, so you want to talk about real situations, which is fine. Can’t really quantify that though. There are builds that just don’t run out of cleanses, there are builds that have barely any. It seems likely to me that you’re running with barely any, since you clearly have a real kitten for condis.
Kill shot will not do that much damage in spvp. You hit around 13k to 15k on glass cannons, but that requires you to be a full glass cannon as well. You also need to build all your traits over the burst dmg to get that high damage, and even then it’s possible that you do not crit.
Nah you’re doing it wrong. I’ve hit over 16k even without banner of discipline up. You’re almost correct about the true issue though. Condis need precision and expertise along with malice, but they don’t need nearly as much precision as power builds. Replace half the toughness on rabid with 15% expertise (making it a berserker equivalent) and see how quickly people swap to it though. The problem isn’t that you don’t need to give up as much defense to max your condition damage, it’s that you can’t.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Yes when fighting real targets the situation appears that you run out of cleanses (but it will never happen that you have no toughness from your amulet).
And this whole thread is about that conds are too strong in these situations in which you have no cleanses. That’s all.
If you have no cleanses and get hit by 1-2 wrong abilities you are kittened and that shouldnt be the case and that’s unbalanced compared to power abilities.
OK, so you want to talk about real situations, which is fine. Can’t really quantify that though. There are builds that just don’t run out of cleanses, there are builds that have barely any. It seems likely to me that you’re running with barely any, since you clearly have a real kitten for condis.
Kill shot will not do that much damage in spvp. You hit around 13k to 15k on glass cannons, but that requires you to be a full glass cannon as well. You also need to build all your traits over the burst dmg to get that high damage, and even then it’s possible that you do not crit.
Nah you’re doing it wrong. I’ve hit over 16k even without banner of discipline up. You’re almost correct about the true issue though. Condis need precision and expertise along with malice, but they don’t need nearly as much precision as power builds. Replace half the toughness on rabid with 15% expertise (making it a berserker equivalent) and see how quickly people swap to it though.
Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k. On a typical pvt warrior in wvw, my full burst (136% crit dmg, easily 4k+power) ks warrior still hits less than 10k even if they do not have protection.
Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k.
Try pin down against anyone, anyone at all, because they all have cleanses. It’s the same issue. You’re either talking about with defense, or without, you can’t have it both ways.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Yes when fighting real targets the situation appears that you run out of cleanses (but it will never happen that you have no toughness from your amulet).
And this whole thread is about that conds are too strong in these situations in which you have no cleanses. That’s all.
If you have no cleanses and get hit by 1-2 wrong abilities you are kittened and that shouldnt be the case and that’s unbalanced compared to power abilities.
OK, so you want to talk about real situations, which is fine. Can’t really quantify that though. There are builds that just don’t run out of cleanses, there are builds that have barely any. It seems likely to me that you’re running with barely any, since you clearly have a real kitten for condis.
Yes some builds have obviously more trouble with conds than others but even the ones not focusing on cleanses shouldn’t die from one easy to land attack with 1/4 cast time on range.
You just can NOT compare pin down to kill shot – doing this is just ridiculous.
Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k.
Try pin down against anyone, anyone at all, because they all have cleanses. It’s the same issue. You’re either talking about with defense, or without, you can’t have it both ways.
Naturally. However, while both ks and pin down have about the same potential damage on a target with no defense, the condition user can himself remain very tanky unlike the direct damage user who has to be full glass.
Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k.
Try pin down against anyone, anyone at all, because they all have cleanses. It’s the same issue. You’re either talking about with defense, or without, you can’t have it both ways.
Naturally. However, while both ks and pin down have about the same potential damage on a target with no defense, the condition user can himself remain very tanky unlike the direct damage user who has to be full glass.
Generally though, power damage is higher. Go through and take a glance at each weapon set.
Pin down vs KS is an outlier, and that’s primarily because warriors have so few covers, making condi warrior sub par in general. Pin down simply doesn’t deal as much damage as KS in real play, and it’s one of the few examples that are on par under ideal circumstances, along with some of the torment and burning abilities.
Condi damage is lower, and yes, part of that is due to amulet restrictions forcing condi classes into tankier playstyles.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k.
Try pin down against anyone, anyone at all, because they all have cleanses. It’s the same issue. You’re either talking about with defense, or without, you can’t have it both ways.
Naturally. However, while both ks and pin down have about the same potential damage on a target with no defense, the condition user can himself remain very tanky unlike the direct damage user who has to be full glass.
Generally though, power damage is higher. Go through and take a glance at each weapon set.
Pin down vs KS is an outlier, and that’s primarily because warriors have so few covers, making condi warrior sub par in general. Pin down simply doesn’t deal as much damage as KS in real play, and it’s one of the few examples that are on par under ideal circumstances, along with some of the torment and burning abilities. Oh, and blood is power.
Condi damage is lower, and yes, part of that is due to amulet restrictions forcing condi classes into tankier playstyles.
If power dmg is higher how come you didn’t already post how you can kill a heavy golem as easy as my stated examples?^^ Cause there is none?
Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k.
Try pin down against anyone, anyone at all, because they all have cleanses. It’s the same issue. You’re either talking about with defense, or without, you can’t have it both ways.
Naturally. However, while both ks and pin down have about the same potential damage on a target with no defense, the condition user can himself remain very tanky unlike the direct damage user who has to be full glass.
Generally though, power damage is higher. Go through and take a glance at each weapon set.
Pin down vs KS is an outlier, and that’s primarily because warriors have so few covers, making condi warrior sub par in general. Pin down simply doesn’t deal as much damage as KS in real play, and it’s one of the few examples that are on par under ideal circumstances, along with some of the torment and burning abilities. Oh, and blood is power.
Condi damage is lower, and yes, part of that is due to amulet restrictions forcing condi classes into tankier playstyles.
If power dmg is higher how come you didn’t already post how you can kill a heavy golem as easy as my stated examples?^^ Cause there is none?
Give golems the ability to heal every 20 or so seconds, then try it again.
Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k.
Try pin down against anyone, anyone at all, because they all have cleanses. It’s the same issue. You’re either talking about with defense, or without, you can’t have it both ways.
Naturally. However, while both ks and pin down have about the same potential damage on a target with no defense, the condition user can himself remain very tanky unlike the direct damage user who has to be full glass.
Generally though, power damage is higher. Go through and take a glance at each weapon set.
Pin down vs KS is an outlier, and that’s primarily because warriors have so few covers, making condi warrior sub par in general. Pin down simply doesn’t deal as much damage as KS in real play, and it’s one of the few examples that are on par under ideal circumstances, along with some of the torment and burning abilities.
Yes, ofc full zerker deals more dps than any condition build, I’d say even most pve players know this. It should be noted though, that in pvp the tankiness of the condition player gives him indirect offense as he doesn’t have to worry about getting hit that much. Zerker players have to play more carefully and so generally can’t land their attacks as often as condition players.
Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k.
Try pin down against anyone, anyone at all, because they all have cleanses. It’s the same issue. You’re either talking about with defense, or without, you can’t have it both ways.
Naturally. However, while both ks and pin down have about the same potential damage on a target with no defense, the condition user can himself remain very tanky unlike the direct damage user who has to be full glass.
Generally though, power damage is higher. Go through and take a glance at each weapon set.
Pin down vs KS is an outlier, and that’s primarily because warriors have so few covers, making condi warrior sub par in general. Pin down simply doesn’t deal as much damage as KS in real play, and it’s one of the few examples that are on par under ideal circumstances, along with some of the torment and burning abilities. Oh, and blood is power.
Condi damage is lower, and yes, part of that is due to amulet restrictions forcing condi classes into tankier playstyles.
If power dmg is higher how come you didn’t already post how you can kill a heavy golem as easy as my stated examples?^^ Cause there is none?
Give golems the ability to heal every 20 or so seconds, then try it again.
Except for the poison grenade example the golem would still die when attacking right after the “golems heal”.
Yes, ofc full zerker deals more dps than any condition build, I’d say even most pve players know this. It should be noted though, that in pvp the tankiness of the condition player gives him indirect offense as he doesn’t have to worry about getting hit that much. Zerker players have to play more carefully and so generally can’t land their attacks as often as condition players.
Yeah, that’s very true. You can push a lot harder with a tankier build, maintaining some offense while being pressured, which balances it out a bit.
Generally though it still lags behind. Take that amulet I posted earlier. Condi classes would do a LOT more damage if that was in the game. They’d be as vulnerable as berserker builds, but I guarantee you it would be the standard choice.
If you want to kill a non bunker fast, you want a power build. Same as ever. Condi debuffs and armor ignoring damage makes life hard for bunkers, power based spikes are better against average or worse armor and/or low active defense targets, because they simply hit harder and also have better compression.
Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k.
Try pin down against anyone, anyone at all, because they all have cleanses. It’s the same issue. You’re either talking about with defense, or without, you can’t have it both ways.
Naturally. However, while both ks and pin down have about the same potential damage on a target with no defense, the condition user can himself remain very tanky unlike the direct damage user who has to be full glass.
Is this a problem with conditions dealing too much damage, or do the condition builds get their third stat (condi duration from somewhere else and too easy). On the other hand, conditions dont burst, they need time to show their potential, so some defense is needed
On the other side people DO die from getting hit by a pin down or a blowtorch+poison dart etc…
Then ‘people’ need to stop sucking and cleanse. Unless by ‘people’ you mean ‘golems’.
So we finally have reached the point were we make “everyone else should stop sucking” arguments. Took some time for you put you finally made it.
well, your arguments dont make any sense at all.
You allways name 3 skills, maybe these are to strong, but again for this we have condition remove, something we dont have against direct damage.
And if you die because of a 20second burn slowly lowering your healthbar, and you are not able to stop the burn, then you deserve it to die.
Actually with blowtorch + poison dart you need to be able to cleanse in the next 10-12s. If you think everyone has a cleanse every 10s I don’t know how much you played this game.
its 15 seconds, blowtorch has an CD of 15s and to be effective, the engineer need to be in an melee range <200.
Don’t let him get close or dodge if he gets close problem solved.
And do you want to tell me, that you run into an enemy with 100% health and every skill on CD? There are alot of skills and traits to remove conditions.
And if you are not able to build that way, voila there is the counter-build of yours
Actually with blowtorch + poison dart you need to be able to cleanse in the next 10-12s. If you think everyone has a cleanse every 10s I don’t know how much you played this game.
Please, it’s getting really awkward. Unload hits harder than blowtorch. Dem p/p teef 2 strong.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k.
Try pin down against anyone, anyone at all, because they all have cleanses. It’s the same issue. You’re either talking about with defense, or without, you can’t have it both ways.
Naturally. However, while both ks and pin down have about the same potential damage on a target with no defense, the condition user can himself remain very tanky unlike the direct damage user who has to be full glass.
Generally though, power damage is higher. Go through and take a glance at each weapon set.
Pin down vs KS is an outlier, and that’s primarily because warriors have so few covers, making condi warrior sub par in general. Pin down simply doesn’t deal as much damage as KS in real play, and it’s one of the few examples that are on par under ideal circumstances, along with some of the torment and burning abilities. Oh, and blood is power.
Condi damage is lower, and yes, part of that is due to amulet restrictions forcing condi classes into tankier playstyles.
If power dmg is higher how come you didn’t already post how you can kill a heavy golem as easy as my stated examples?^^ Cause there is none?
Give golems the ability to heal every 20 or so seconds, then try it again.
Except for the poison grenade example the golem would still die when attacking right after the “golems heal”.
Assuming it healed 5k every 20 seconds. That would be 3300 heals every 20 seconds with poison debuff, which is 165 hps.
Assuming a very hard hitting poison doing 300 dps, it would effectively be doing 135 DPS
Actually with blowtorch + poison dart you need to be able to cleanse in the next 10-12s. If you think everyone has a cleanse every 10s I don’t know how much you played this game.
Please, it’s getting really awkward. Unload hits harder than blowtorch. Dem p/p teef 2 strong.
See this is the thing.
The problem is dmg is just too much in this game. If you sat there and took an Unload or 2 from a thief you would probably die or be close to death, just like being poisoned and burned.
This dependency and interaction between damaging conditions and cleanses, however, creates an environment where conditions have to be cleansed in order to be balanced. Instances where they can not be cleansed reliably will put their effect beyond what was intended (an oversimplified example to visualize the above: if I hit a meta build D/P thief with a Pin Down right after he used Hide in Shadows, which puts him back at 100% HPs, he will die from this single attack. He can run, hide and avoid any other attack I’ll follow up with, but unless he gets back to his guardian for a cleanse, the potential damage of that range attack will be enough to take him from 100 to 0).
Either you think that’s broken or you’re fine with the way it’s working. If you’re fine with it then I have nothing more to say.
So you still say that you can kill a heavy golem with less effort with a power class than with cond class?
I’m not going to respond to everything in this thread, but the answer is absolutely yes. There are a ton of burst specs that can kill a heavy golem in a few seconds or even instantly with some might stacks.
Sure. 4515+sharpened edges. Sigil of air would be another 1350+. No need for 25 vuln stacks. Or frost spirit. You do it with signets. Hey, you wanted to use 1 in 100 examples
And how useful would this long bow ranger be to a group? You know why there aren’t very many long bow zerker rangers in PvP because they drop… FAST.
