(edited by hobotnicax.7918)
Downed state change suggestion
Downed-State is the single worst mechanic I have ever witnessed in any MMO ever.
I have a hard time imagining a mechanic that could possibly be more detrimental to the combat of this game. Downed-State has made me rage and curse this game more than all the lags, Thieves, PU Mesmers and Hambows combined.
It is so bad, such a crutch-mechanic, that it defies any competitive notion of this game.
Only in GW2 do you beat someone in 5 seconds….only to spend the next 15 second chasing after them trying to get a finish. And if you fail, they rally and you are at a disadvantage and lose, despite “winning” the actual fight.
Only in GW2 can a Guardian revive people quicker than a normal player can finish.
Only in GW2 do you “beat” someone in a 1vs.2 situation only to end up dead, while both enemies survive unscathed because of downed-state.
Only in GW2 are group fights decided by stomps, not by actual combat.
Only in GW2 is it bad to have NPCs or bad players assist you in combat because they allow your enemy to rally.
Only in GW2 does the winning team revive by killing enemies, while the losing team needs to manually rezz. Snowballing ftw.!
Only in GW2 do you have 400% of your normal HP, AFTER you’ve been defeated. Logic ftw!
Only in GW2 do you kill bosses by stacking on the spot, partially because of downed-state.
I can literally not imagine any aspect of this game that wouldn’t be better without downed-state.
(edited by Dee Jay.2460)
If anything, downed-state brings more depth into pvp and encourages teamwork…
Shuriyo
Downed state as is, offers a cheap and unfair way to continue dealing damage, evade stomping, actually getting back up and keep fighting for a short while etc…
this is working as intended. the opponent is downed, not defeated.
This does not belong in sPvP, I’m sorry.
downed state belongs in sPVP. perhaps the people who cannot accept downed state do not belong in sPvP. i’m sorry.
SPvP is about skill, teamwork, tactics, the downed state as is covers none of these.
incorrect. managing downed state requires skills, teamwork and tactics.
“enemy down! stability / mist form stomp!”
“friendly ele down! mist form to me for quick rez!”
“team mate down! banner-ing!”
“enemy reviving downed! interrupt!”
etc.
To top it all off, every single profession in this game has it’s own downed state set of skills, some highly useful, some entirely useless.
this is again, working as intended. some professions which are more likely to enter the downed state easier will have better downed state escape skills while some professions which are less likely to enter the downed state easier will have less useful downed state escape skills.
How many times did a mesmer, thief, elementalist rally just because they have better evasive downed skills that kept them alive just that little while longer? I think most of us have had this experience, and it is simply discouraging.
My suggestion for a downed change is the following; remove all available skills while downed and raise the HP while downed by X amount.
this will not happen.
This would level the playing field for every profession. It would also encourage more team oriented builds. How many people do you know who run runes of mercy? How many people do you know who have traits that are useful for reviving? How many players do you know who run a banner or signet for reviving team members?
i dun know about other teams but the warriors in my casual team all carries battle standard for quick revive during team fights.
The current bunker & full out damage meta is turning this game into something which requires little skill and team cooperation.
but how would you know? i find no records of you playing in solo arena or team arena, in both na and eu. i can safely assume that you only play in hotjoin.
The downed state as is (in my opinion) contributes to this problem as it allows certain classes to survive longer while downed than others and gives them an unfair advantage over the opponent who bested them.
they can only truly survive longer if they have a team mate nearby to help them get back up on their feet.
I hope you got my point and I know this was probably suggested before and then got buried by other threads who are mostly about complaints about current meta and inequality, which a change to the downed state could remedy.
simply because downed state is working as intended. there is no need to work what is not broken.
Thank you for your time and I hope a member of the staff reads this and realizes that such a little modification could be a game changer, for the better.
what you are asking for is not a little modification, but a complete overhaul. it will not happen.
@Deimos; the amount of things you took completely out of context just to justify your claims is incredible.
Your post lacks any constructive thought, and at a point it’s based on your flawed assumption (that I only play hot join, which could not be further from the truth).
I know that some of you may like the cheap and unfair extras one gets with certain professions when downed, I didn’t expect this thread to be hate/troll free, hardly any thread is without such people nowadays.
You are completely missing the point and you fail to understand my issue (our) issue with downed state as is; IF YOU’RE DEFEATED, YOU’RE DEFEATED, yet currently you can still pump out incredible amounts of damage, evade, teleport, stealth etc AFTER you got outplayed or simply focused by the enemy players. It goes both ways.
How many times did it happen that after you won a fair 1v1 and then you still went down cause of their damage from downed state..? Or you downed 1 player in a 1v2 situation and you simply couldn’t stomp him/her cause of evasive skills, self healing (specially ranger pets) etc. How is this fair, fun and still in the game?
And besides @Deimos, you said some professions go down easier than other, therefor require such downed state skills… really?Lets say you down a warrior and ignore him for a while, in a 1v2 situation where you cannot stomp right away since you’re under pressure from the other player, the warrior will get back up, 2 on 1 you AGAIN and if traited in such a way, continue to play without any punishment for dying when you get killed. Fantastic!
It seriously needs a change cause simply, as is, it doesn’t belong in sPvP.
downed is not defeated.
also, http://gw2score.com/PvP fails to retrieve any records of your solo arena and team arena leaderboard data in both na and eu.
that means either you mainly play hotjoin only or simply not enough of solo / team arena for your name to come up in the leaderboard records.
guild wars 2 sPvP is a mainly conquest mode 5 vs 5 team game.
the examples you quoted are irrelevant and invalid.
downed state is working as intended.
i am sorry but perhaps you do not belong in sPvP if you cannot accept downed state.
@Deimos; the amount of things you took completely out of context just to justify your claims is incredible.
Your post lacks any constructive thought,
Deimos answer is very constructive, while your post look likes a cry from the heart
IF YOU’RE DEFEATED, YOU’RE DEFEATED, yet currently you can still pump out incredible amounts of damage, evade, teleport, stealth etc AFTER you got outplayed or simply focused by the enemy players. It goes both ways.
again, downed is not defeated.
downed = still alive, still can attack, certain professions can move around for a bit.
defeated = dead. cannot do anything but wait for respawn.
How many times did it happen that after you won a fair 1v1 and then you still went down cause of their damage from downed state..?
you got outplayed. deal with it.
Or you downed 1 player in a 1v2 situation and you simply couldn’t stomp him/her cause of evasive skills, self healing (specially ranger pets) etc. How is this fair, fun and still in the game?
in a 1 vs 2 situation, do not expect to come out akuve abd victorious, especially if both of them know what they are doing.
And besides @Deimos, you said some professions go down easier than other, therefor require such downed state skills… really?Lets say you down a warrior and ignore him for a while, in a 1v2 situation where you cannot stomp right away since you’re under pressure from the other player, the warrior will get back up, 2 on 1 you AGAIN and if traited in such a way, continue to play without any punishment for dying when you get killed. Fantastic!
warrior’s vengeance only have 15 seconds, the warrior will only 100% rally if sweet revenge trait is equipped and only if the warrior managed a kill within that 15 seconds, a trait that not many warriors will bring into sPvP. otherwise they have a 25% chance to rally during 15 seconds of vengeance and they come back to life with reduced health and no adrenaline at all.
also, in a 2 vs 1 situation, the team with more numbers will always have the upper hand.
It seriously needs a change cause simply, as is, it doesn’t belong in sPvP.
once again, downed state is fine, does not need any changes, and belongs in guild wars 2 sPvP just fine and well.
…
all i can see here, is someone, who is not happy, because they cannot win their “awesome” 1 vs 2 battles or 1 vs 1. that is all.
OP think if he win 1×2 vs deccent players it’s only due to his high skill(and sure no due to his OP class and skillbuild). But when he lose in 1×2 it’s must be nerfed.
“My suggestion for a downed change is the following; remove all available skills while downed and raise the HP while downed by X amount.”
So why not remove all skills from all classes and let them only attack with 1111? It will be more balance.
-snip-
Deimos is terrible at arguing.
He doesn’t argue form a mechanical or game-design pov. Instead he argues that because something is the way it is, that this is automatically good.
That is false, and the entire reason to have this debate in the first place.
Just because all restaurants sell Burgers, doesn’t mean Burgers are the best food to eat.
That’s no real arguing, that’s statement of fact.
And a few other facts are:
Downed-State undermines the importance of combat, the core aspect of this game, in favor of a arbitrary and unintuitive downed-state mechanic. Who wins team-fights isn’t decided by coordinated burst, crowd-control or other team-eforts, it’s most often decided by who gets the stomp. Really?
It also limits the room for excellence. Even a great player will have a hard time coming out against 2 other players because of downed-state. And that means 1v1 is really the only area to shine. And that’s simply not enough. Everyone can win 1v1, it’s not an amazing feat. But nobody can win 1v2 (a few exceptions, I’m sure)…so where’s the room for excellence?
And then there’s general imbalances like: How come it takes me 20 seconds and 15 skill-uses to kill a player, and a Guardian can revive him within 3 seconds, effectively negating all my efforts with a simple click? How does that factor into risk/reward, effort/results? Just for comparison resurrections in other MMOs were typically ~10 second casts that would be interrupted by ANY damage. Just for a little perspective….
Downed-State really has no redeeming qualities. It encourages stacking in PvE, it encourages Zerker meta because you aren’t punished for being downed, it’s a massive snowballing mechanic in favor of the winning parties, it doesn’t punish lazy behavior in big events and the list goes on…
There is simply no defending it for a game-mechanics point of view. You can defend it because it’s already there, like Deimos did, but that isn’t really adding anything worth-while to the debate.
^ all irrelevant.
downed state is a core game play mechanic of guild wars 2 and it will not be removed.
complaining about downed state in guild wars 2 is just like complaining about
- why soccer must be played with foot only, not hands
- why basketball must keep on bouncing the ball
- why cannot kick the ball in basketball
because, rules, are rules.
Dee Jay, you have played so many games of team arena in europe, yet cannot come to accept downed state as it is. but you will continue to play anyway.
why you are always talking about 1×2? I play some another games, for exemple at PotBS you will never win 95% of your 1×2 due to game mechanic. But at DotA sometimes you can easy win 1×5. All games have different game mechanics.
About 1×2:
If I outdamage 2 opponents and 1 is down (not very common situation at GW2) I never had problem with stomping. Stability/myst form/invis/mesmer f4 and stomp.
Stomping is 2 times faster then reviving. Or just deal burst damage and interrupt/knockback reviever
I agree, it is a core game play mechanic in GW2, and if you’d actually and I mean actually read what I wrote (instead of just picking some of my statements you don’t agree with) you’d notice that I said nothing about removing it, it needs to be changed as is that’s what I’m saying.
Why did we use a 1v2 scenario as an example? Because it’s there where the problem with the current downed state really starts to show how messed up it is.
Look, I understand why some of you will defend it, it’s a crutch some professions have when played the wrong way and you like it. I honestly understand.
I’m not the best player, far from it, but when I see something that’s so apparently broken in an objective way I will say something about it.
Anyone can come to this thread and say just do this or that, but they forget not everyone can mist or stealth stomp, that one has limited stability, health etc…
But even if you have all of the above, it’s not a guaranteed stomp, cause what do you know, some can teleport, heal up, deal more damage to you so you go down as well before you manage to actually stomp.
It takes more effort to stomp someone than to down him and that is wrong in my opinion. Don’t even get me started on rally.
@Deimos, so you’ll stop talking nonsense to feel good about yourself:
http://i61.tinypic.com/t99mr5.jpg (since you claim I only play hot join)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xljeDwVtgxw (since you claim I am unhappy cause I can’t win amazing battles)
(edited by hobotnicax.7918)
Hi Hobotnicax,
I get the impression Development doesn’t care.
The fact that you among many are unhappy should be purpose enough, yet despite lasting objection, there hasn’t been much discussion let alone change regarding the topic.
If the time ever comes when they do review down state, I hope they consider the fundamental worth — like they did with underwater combat.
Down-state aims to counterbalance my mistakes; punishing those that outplayed me,
and snares my capability, in fairness of vantage…
Discuss: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/PvP-Down-state-Evaluation/first
and snares my capability, in fairness of vantage…
Discuss: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/PvP-Down-state-Evaluation/first
I see you play as Guardian, Ranger and Warrior which are good at current bunker meta. They have knocbacks/stuns at downed state, while others classes have teleports/stealth/mystforms. So you want take away last little advantage from these classes.
Please keep it on topic. I want to have a discussion about the current downed state.
You said it yourself, “advantage”, there should be none, everyone should be the same when they are downed. And FYI I don’t play any bunker builds.
^ all irrelevant.
downed state is a core game play mechanic of guild wars 2 and it will not be removed.complaining about downed state in guild wars 2 is just like complaining about
- why soccer must be played with foot only, not hands
- why basketball must keep on bouncing the ball
- why cannot kick the ball in basketballbecause, rules, are rules.
Dee Jay, you have played so many games of team arena in europe, yet cannot come to accept downed state as it is. but you will continue to play anyway.
“Servers are such a fundamental thing in GW2 that they will never change the server structure. Complaining about dead servers is about as useful as complaining about…”
See what I did there?
MMOs change over time. In fact that’s a big reason I continue playing them. Everything can be changed if the devs want to and have the resources.
A dev even acknowledged at some point that downed-state has issues. So I do think it could be changed. We don’t even need a fundamental rework of the entire mechanic. A little fine-tuning of the downed-state and rally mechanic would suffice to mitigate the most severe negative impacts.
…2 second finishers (down from 3), 1 rally per kill, less HP in downed state, counters to Mesmer and Ele downed-state etc. would all help make the issue less severe. But nothing has happened since launch to the single-worst mechanic in this game.
Please keep it on topic. I want to have a discussion about the current downed state.
You said it yourself, “advantage”, there should be none, everyone should be the same when they are downed. And FYI I don’t play any bunker builds.
The problem is that, then, the fight should be as well balanced for all classes, and it’s not the case at all. If these classes couldn’t teleport, people would drop even quicker to meta builds, that almost always have stability up( you have an example in actual tPvP matchs, where it’s about chasing the necro)
What surprise me at this game that every player with l2p issues think he must create his own topic at forum
This song and dance has happened numerous times. It is obvious Gw2 looses out on a very large population margin because of downstate. Most Gw1 players or other competitive players are instantly turned off by the premise of such a mechanic and it get even worse when you look more at the specifics when it comes to rallying, stomp evasion and damage that can be dealt from downed state.
Now there is a bit of method behind downstate. The game is very individual focused and downstate tries to bridge the gap between team interaction that the game is inherently missing. It also tries to give a bit of a safeguard against burst class.
(the origin of this necessity is questionable though as burst can be scaled such that a player has options to reasonable react to it while alive, ideally in such a way without a coordinated team effort a burst would be difficult to land)
So yes, downstate does add an entire layer of depth the game is missing. However, it is important to dig a little deeper. Why is this layer of depth lacking in the first place? Well trying to stay away from the holy trinity. The only thing about this is, is it not possible to not have a holy trinity where support is mandatory but still keep it as a viable option for those who wish it? Of course it is lol, in fact that is largely what a guardian/bunkers are except their primary support comes from control over the downstate. So now this raises the real questions, why can’t more of the support be targeted at the living player? And would this create a better gameplay experience as opposed to the experience downstate creates?
uhg… it would take me so much longer to break everything down to the level Anet would be willing to readjust for and even then… Might as well just make the game that follows those principles myself.