Guild Wars 2

This thread aims to start a discussion on a big balancing problem – the warrior.
First of all I will tell you my opinion from the point of view of a mesmer/thief.
Warriors obviously got nerfed in the last patch but why do we still see almost every top team running two of them? imo the wrong things got nerfed
I am trying to stay as objective as possible to make sure this thread stays constructive!

Here we go:

- In this game – or any game that aims to be competetive there should be risk and there should be reward… the more risk you take the bigger the reward should be
Talking as a mesmer this means porting into the middle of the teamfight to shatter (-illusionary persona) -> more damage but you can drop in seconds
- Also you have a certain rotation that deals a nice amount of damage (-the burst)
for example -> mirror blade- izerker – blink – mindwrack
-> illusionary leap – blurred frenzy – diversion – mirror images – mindwrack

as you can see you have to combine several attacks to hit with a nice amount of damage while having obvious animations on the attacks (Mirror blade, illusionary leap) (mirror images are instant but are only really effective if you managed to hit illusonary leap)

The point is that if you dont hit one of the combos you are not being effective at all also you have to take a certain risk in order to be effective

Let’s come to warrior:
The problem with warrior is that it is almost impossible to counter warriors if they are playing it right

Lets take a burst setup – you spike the warriors from stealth
Warrior: if he reacts fast enough he can basically survive with around 60% health using Endure pain (making it possible for him to disengage) (no risk for pressing one skill – surviving – 100% reward)

Lets take a condition semibunker setup – you try to outsustain the warriors
Warrior:
Bersercer’s Stance – immunity to conditions for quite a long time (no risk for pressing one skill – surviving 100% reward),
Cleansing ire (cleansing with a chance of 100% on longbow, not even having to hit the condi cleanse 0% risk – 100% reward)
Lyssa runes (i dont really want to talk about these runes because these are an other balancing problem)
Lets take a fast setup that can outroam others (portals, thieves)
Warrior: 25% movement speed increase while wielding a close ranged weapon
actually thats a very good trait but with portal you are still faster one might think
you are indeed faster but then again this game focuses on holding points (- fighting on points) a warrior also has huge point presence because of his lifepool and his healing signet (passive- 0% risk – 100% reward) i think we can all agree that mesmers and thieves cant fight vs warriors on a point so you basically have to take a class that can hold warriors on points while keeping them under pressure
i cant think of any class here except for another warrior (see my point? )

Summary:
Warrior:
Condition immunity on one click – check
Damage immunity on one click – check
Nice amount of hp – check
Sustain in a teamfight – check
Possibility to CC enemies – check
Mobility (25% movement speed increase) – check (might not be the best but still)
Condition cleanse – check
Stability – check
Good in duels – check
Good in teamfights – check
Condition pressure – check (Longbow burning, bleeding)

In my opinion the nerf on hammer was a good idea but it was not what made warrior too strong (of course it was a part of it but not the main problem)
The main problem I see is that a balanced class can only choose two of these:

Survivability (point presence, big health pool etc)
Damage (physical or condition damage)
Mobility (ports, swiftness, movement speed increase)

Looking forward to a nice discussion!

PS: Some might argue that I am biased as a mesmer player because it’s weak atm - imo mesmer is in a decent spot atm so don’t focus on the classes I play focus on what is being said above and please read carefully

Good teams run two because they haven’t changed their set up yet, bad teams run them because they’re easy to be effective with IMO..

Easy to play =/= OP though

Also the meta has been reeaallly sluggish to counter hambow IMO…

That could be down to lack of competition too

Have you ever try to play a warrior?

Silv.9207:

Have you ever try to play a warrior?

yes i actually played warrior for quite a long time

The hammers dmg never was a big problem. The combination that killed every1 was longbow 5 -> f1 -> 3. This combination eats about half of a mesmers live. + its all aoe (+ for mesmer espically your clones die in the burning from f1 even after the actual use)…

Hammer is just crucial in teamfights, imho earthshacker should be target required, so you cant jump in the mid of 2 guys standing on the opposing edgeds of a node and stun them both… The range of earthshacker is just hilarious (blah well telegraphed and kitten, doesnt change anything in the teamfight clutter with petting zoo and mesmers).

The only counter to his stances is leaving the node and wait for them to run out. War just turns into an unstoppable beast with zerker stance and stability. no hard cc no soft cc = gg

Well, one might say zerker stance has risk on its cooldown, but it’s a skill who came up because of necro, IMHO.

However… you mean not to be OP I just don’t have to use Hammer or Longbow?

With GS, for example, I need at least one utility slot to get Bolas or Bull to hit people with 100 blades. Without using mace, I mean.

This means I either have to drop Zerker Stance, Endure Pain or stability.

And I don’t use Lyssa.

However, I’ve seen warrs going down to focused fire pretty fast. Once their stances are over (not saying anything, though).

The idea of nerfing for dev’s is to simply switch stats on CD duration and proc duration among others..

Example:
50% skill recharge reduction on 10 seconds and proc every 20.
Now has 25% recharge reduction on 10 seconds and proc every 10 seconds.
This is what they call nerfs that are actually buffs.
Or they alter other classes to seem like they got buffs using the same trick.
here is 50% recharge on this trait but we didn’t mention we added 30 seconds CD on the proc. Don’t worry you will find out in 6 months when we change the tooltip.

i agree with op and all this effects are just tooo much to can have them all in a build

warrior need some risk in his gamepaly too and when it is not possible to move this all to different traits so they cant have everything in one build than why not give them negative effects too?

i remember in wow there was a berserker thing where warrior made some seconds more dmg but get more dmg too

so why not something like this: lower warrior armor by 40% when is condi imun?

or fix for healing signet:
- reduce passive heal by 15-20% but give the active heal a FULL HP heal but damage bonus +20% and get 20% more damage for 7 sec?

would be high risk high reward and warrior would need some skill to play

edit: another sugeestion – what you guys think bout reducing armor with weakness? would give some intersting gameplays in teamfight vs this bunkerish classes with combofields

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

Romek.4201:

i agree with op and all this effects are just tooo much to can have them all in a build

warrior need some risk in his gamepaly too and when it is not possible to move this all to different traits so they cant have everything in one build than why not give them negative effects too?

i remember in wow there was a berserker thing where warrior made some seconds more dmg but get more dmg too

so why not something like this: lower warrior armor by 40% when is condi imun?

or fix for healing signet:
- reduce passive heal by 15-20% but give the active heal a FULL HP heal but damage bonus +20% and get 20% more damage for 7 sec?

would be high risk high reward and warrior would need some skill to play

edit: another sugeestion – what you guys think bout reducing armor with weakness? would give some intersting gameplays in teamfight vs this bunkerish classes with combofields

It will be great if they do that to all classes: Example. You use bluried frenzy (you evade all attacks) but after for the same duraction you take 40% more damage.
Same with other kind of invul.

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

silentnight warrior.2714:

Romek.4201:

i agree with op and all this effects are just tooo much to can have them all in a build

warrior need some risk in his gamepaly too and when it is not possible to move this all to different traits so they cant have everything in one build than why not give them negative effects too?

i remember in wow there was a berserker thing where warrior made some seconds more dmg but get more dmg too

so why not something like this: lower warrior armor by 40% when is condi imun?

or fix for healing signet:
- reduce passive heal by 15-20% but give the active heal a FULL HP heal but damage bonus +20% and get 20% more damage for 7 sec?

would be high risk high reward and warrior would need some skill to play

edit: another sugeestion – what you guys think bout reducing armor with weakness? would give some intersting gameplays in teamfight vs this bunkerish classes with combofields

It will be great if they do that to all classes: Example. You use bluried frenzy (you evade all attacks) but after for the same duraction you take 40% more damage.
Same with other kind of invul.

so you basically take a lot of damage from retal when using blurred frenzy and then you take even more damage while being very squishy? i see your point but i think we would have to modify that for each class

Condition warrior is the real monster these days. At least when people used hammer warriors they used zerker amulets so you could at least do some damage to them.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

Amitabh Bachan.4385:

Condition warrior is the real monster these days. At least when people used hammer warriors they used zerker amulets so you could at least do some damage to them.

yea condi warriors are a pain in duels on sidenodes..but they are not really good in teamfights which is good

i think it is intended.
warriors are supposed to be easier to play.
most of those so called “god mode” skills have long recharge time though.

i’m happy with my warrior at the moment.
hopefully not many big nerfs in the future.

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.

Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.

As far as phantasms dying, yeah, they absolutely can in certain team scenarios. But if they hit even once, they are already easily dealing more damage than whatever weapon skill another class would use for that cool down.

Blurred Frenzy – super high reward for almost no risk. 2.5s evade on a 10s CD

Distortion – up to 4 second immunity to condi, power and CC, which you can even have back to back for up to 8 seconds with a trait in a line that you invest 30 in anyway. This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.

How is that for risk vs. reward?

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.

Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.

ofc they deal damage but they are not the main damage source

Sensotix.4106:

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.

Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.

ofc they deal damage but they are not the main damage source

They are, it’s just not showing well in the death breakdown, if you aren’t looking for it.

I also edited my post to add some comparison with your class in terms of risk vs. reward just to show you that listing a bunch of abilities of a class and for whatever reason claiming they are completely overpowered without even comparing them to what else is out there, seems strange and makes this thread look more like a whine than anything.

worsed thing is we clearly know warrior is op and has toooo much at same time – even arenanet know it but it will need ages to fix this and we the players have to play vs this crap for months and than they wonder why people dont have fun and are annoyed by gw2 pvp and leave it

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.

Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.

ofc they deal damage but they are not the main damage source

They are, it’s just not showing well in the death breakdown, if you aren’t looking for it.

I also edited my post to add some comparison with your class in terms of risk vs. reward just to show you that listing a bunch of abilities of a class and for whatever reason claiming they are completely overpowered without even comparing them to what else is out there, seems strange and makes this thread look more like a whine than anything.

you cant compare mesmer to warrior..please read the op post again
mesmer lacks sustain, mobility, condition removal etc etc so you cant compare mesmer to warrior

Just nerf warriors to where eles are now. They deserve it.
And give eles the godmode they deserve for being tortured for 9 months.

What makes the warrior ridiculous? HEALING SIGNET! The healing signet just needs
to get changed, it is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to strong combined with adrenal health and boon regen!!!!! Fix the passive and buff the active! We want more active play that requires the player to think and not just run around being a kittening brain dead juggernaut!

Honestly I think only thing that needs nerf is healing signet thats whats made our sustain so good. But, at same time other classes such as necro need nerf.

apt.9184:

Honestly I think only thing that needs nerf is healing signet thats whats made our sustain so good. But, at same time other classes such as necro need nerf.

YES lets nerf the necromancer more why dont we! Although i can agree to removing DUMBfire and reverting the weapons bleed application changes! YES PLEASE!

Sensotix.4106:

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.

Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.

ofc they deal damage but they are not the main damage source

They are, it’s just not showing well in the death breakdown, if you aren’t looking for it.

I also edited my post to add some comparison with your class in terms of risk vs. reward just to show you that listing a bunch of abilities of a class and for whatever reason claiming they are completely overpowered without even comparing them to what else is out there, seems strange and makes this thread look more like a whine than anything.

you cant compare mesmer to warrior..please read the op post again
mesmer lacks sustain, mobility, condition removal etc etc so you cant compare mesmer to warrior

Yes you can. Analyze bro.

Distortion = Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance, Endure Pain.

Sure you’re rooted when you’re using blurred Frenzy, but understand one simple thing, you also have perma-vigor so you’re technically not even rooted. When a Mesmer is dodging (and he can do this extremely frequent too thanks to that perma-vigor trait) he can actually use shatters. Can warrior actually deal damage when they use endurance dodge? Yeah but it isn’t as frustrating to deal with compared to Mesmer because its actually much more telegraphed.

Sure Warrior deals more damage AND is easily the better character when you’re actually good at this game but guess what? Its much easier to land your DPS as a Mesmer than a Warrior would. And MESMERS have Balanced stance, Endure pain, Berserker stance as they DPS at least 50% of the time. This easily makes Mesmer a more brainless class than Warrior in reality.

You don’t compare Warrior vs. Mesmer in terms of sustain. What you need to do is ask yourself if Mesmer isn’t as much of a “nine-lives million I messed up button class” or a “time-out class who waits until one guy messes up because they have so much easy defense mechanics” compared to Warrior right now or not.

P.S I don’t play my Mesmer with a stun break. The class is even more brain dead when you have it.

Because in all honesty, how is Mesmer different from Warriors right now? That Mesmers take more skill? No sorry that is ignorance and is an opinion equivalent to a 1300 Bronze ELO from LoL.

I also understand that Mesmer has less viable builds compared to Warrior. But guess what? It doesn’t change. Most of the “good” Warrior builds are linked to stances (AKA defensive mechanics) and most of the “good” Mesmer builds are linked to distortion and that trait that gives perma-vigor.

TL;DR Stop trying to “play the martyr” Mesmers. You aren’t accomplishing anything when your class is just as underhanded as you make Engis, Warriors, and other classes.

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.

Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.

As far as phantasms dying, yeah, they absolutely can in certain team scenarios. But if they hit even once, they are already easily dealing more damage than whatever weapon skill another class would use for that cool down.

Blurred Frenzy – super high reward for almost no risk. 2.5s evade on a 10s CD

Distortion – up to 4 second immunity to condi, power and CC, which you can even have back to back for up to 8 seconds with a trait in a line that you invest 30 in anyway. This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.

How is that for risk vs. reward?

I’m sorry but if a mesmer killed you with phantasms then he sucks because he cant land shatters, and YOU suck harder for beeing hit by phantasms till dead against a shatter mesmer. You got two chances to see phantasm skills coming, the animation casted and the phantasm animation itself. A well landed 3 clones + player body shatter can hit for 8k+ damage. That is hardly “a very small portion”.

And blurred frenzy has risk, specially against a warrior. We have to get into melee range to use it properly. Mesmer is a glass canon, melee against a warrior is a risk. It’s much safer to use staff.
You can’t compare Distortion with warrior stances, it is not equivalent to anything. Distortion actually has a drawback, strips us of all our clones (we loose both defense and offense), unlike warriors, that just press zerker stance/endure pain and keep tunneling you down and rolling their face on their keyboards.
And let’s not mention how the difference in mechanical demands of each class…

Amir.1570:

Distortion = Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance, Endure Pain.

Amir.1570:

Because in all honesty, how is Mesmer different from Warriors right now? That Mesmers take more skill? No sorry that is ignorance

Ok, im outta here lol
“You can’t compare Distortion with warrior stances, it is not equivalent to anything. Distortion actually has a drawback, strips us of all our clones (we loose both defense and offense), unlike warriors, that just press zerker stance/endure pain and keep tunneling you down and rolling their face on their keyboards.”
There is a big difference from warrior stances and mesmer distortion. A mesmer with distortion is a non threatening 0 clone predictable mesmer. A warrior with the right stance on is an unstoppable tunneling machine.

PS: And we are not playing martyr, mesmer is also op. but at least teams have never stacked mesmers and they have never defined a meta on their own and actually take some level of skill and positioning to play.

Amir.1570:

Sensotix.4106:

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.

Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.

ofc they deal damage but they are not the main damage source

They are, it’s just not showing well in the death breakdown, if you aren’t looking for it.

I also edited my post to add some comparison with your class in terms of risk vs. reward just to show you that listing a bunch of abilities of a class and for whatever reason claiming they are completely overpowered without even comparing them to what else is out there, seems strange and makes this thread look more like a whine than anything.

you cant compare mesmer to warrior..please read the op post again
mesmer lacks sustain, mobility, condition removal etc etc so you cant compare mesmer to warrior

Yes you can. Analyze bro.

Distortion = Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance, Endure Pain.

Sure you’re rooted when you’re using blurred Frenzy, but understand one simple thing, you also have perma-vigor so you’re technically not even rooted. When a Mesmer is dodging (and he can do this extremely frequent too thanks to that perma-vigor trait) he can actually use shatters. Can warrior actually deal damage when they use endurance dodge? Yeah but it isn’t as frustrating to deal with compared to Mesmer because its actually much more telegraphed.

Sure Warrior deals more damage AND is easily the better character when you’re actually good at this game but guess what? Its much easier to land your DPS as a Mesmer than a Warrior would. And MESMERS have Balanced stance, Endure pain, Berserker stance as they DPS at least 50% of the time. This easily makes Mesmer a more brainless class than Warrior in reality.

You don’t compare Warrior vs. Mesmer in terms of sustain. What you need to do is ask yourself if Mesmer isn’t as much of a “nine-lives million I messed up button class” or a “time-out class who waits until one guy messes up because they have so much easy defense mechanics” compared to Warrior right now or not.

P.S I don’t play my Mesmer with a stun break. The class is even more brain dead when you have it.

Because in all honesty, how is Mesmer different from Warriors right now? That Mesmers take more skill? No sorry that is ignorance and is an opinion equivalent to a 1300 Bronze ELO from LoL.

I give up!

djooceboxblast.9876:

Amir.1570:

Sensotix.4106:

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.

Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.

ofc they deal damage but they are not the main damage source

They are, it’s just not showing well in the death breakdown, if you aren’t looking for it.

I also edited my post to add some comparison with your class in terms of risk vs. reward just to show you that listing a bunch of abilities of a class and for whatever reason claiming they are completely overpowered without even comparing them to what else is out there, seems strange and makes this thread look more like a whine than anything.

you cant compare mesmer to warrior..please read the op post again
mesmer lacks sustain, mobility, condition removal etc etc so you cant compare mesmer to warrior

Yes you can. Analyze bro.

Distortion = Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance, Endure Pain.

Sure you’re rooted when you’re using blurred Frenzy, but understand one simple thing, you also have perma-vigor so you’re technically not even rooted. When a Mesmer is dodging (and he can do this extremely frequent too thanks to that perma-vigor trait) he can actually use shatters. Can warrior actually deal damage when they use endurance dodge? Yeah but it isn’t as frustrating to deal with compared to Mesmer because its actually much more telegraphed.

Sure Warrior deals more damage AND is easily the better character when you’re actually good at this game but guess what? Its much easier to land your DPS as a Mesmer than a Warrior would. And MESMERS have Balanced stance, Endure pain, Berserker stance as they DPS at least 50% of the time. This easily makes Mesmer a more brainless class than Warrior in reality.

You don’t compare Warrior vs. Mesmer in terms of sustain. What you need to do is ask yourself if Mesmer isn’t as much of a “nine-lives million I messed up button class” or a “time-out class who waits until one guy messes up because they have so much easy defense mechanics” compared to Warrior right now or not.

P.S I don’t play my Mesmer with a stun break. The class is even more brain dead when you have it.

Because in all honesty, how is Mesmer different from Warriors right now? That Mesmers take more skill? No sorry that is ignorance and is an opinion equivalent to a 1300 Bronze ELO from LoL.

I give up!

me too
/15 chars

ahuba.6430:

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.

Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.

As far as phantasms dying, yeah, they absolutely can in certain team scenarios. But if they hit even once, they are already easily dealing more damage than whatever weapon skill another class would use for that cool down.

Blurred Frenzy – super high reward for almost no risk. 2.5s evade on a 10s CD

Distortion – up to 4 second immunity to condi, power and CC, which you can even have back to back for up to 8 seconds with a trait in a line that you invest 30 in anyway. This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.

How is that for risk vs. reward?

I’m sorry but if a mesmer killed you with phantasms then he sucks because he cant land shatters, and YOU suck harder for beeing hit by phantasms till dead against a shatter mesmer. You got two chances to see phantasm skills coming, the animation casted and the phantasm animation itself. A well landed 3 clones + player body shatter can hit for 8k+ damage. That is hardly “a very small portion”.

And blurred frenzy has risk, specially against a warrior. We have to get into melee range to use it properly. Mesmer is a glass canon, melee against a warrior is a risk. It’s much safer to use staff.
You can’t compare Distortion with warrior stances, it is not equivalent to anything. Distortion actually has a drawback, strips us of all our clones (we loose both defense and offense), unlike warriors, that just press zerker stance/endure pain and keep tunneling you down and rolling their face on their keyboards.
And let’s not mention how the difference in mechanical demands of each class…

Yeah but guess why distortion erasing clones isn’t as bad. Because you have that perma-vigor trait and you can’t really count a “good” Mesmer’s dodge. You also strip boons and cleanse other people’s condition with Null-field (Which is kittened strong if you knew how to make good Mesmer builds).

Your class is also the cancer that doesn’t allow AoE in sPvP to get nerfed considering AoE is usually the best counter-play vs. Mesmers. So stop playing the martyr and actually analyze why Mesmers are just as cancerous as Warriors.

Amir.1570:

ahuba.6430:

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.

Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.

As far as phantasms dying, yeah, they absolutely can in certain team scenarios. But if they hit even once, they are already easily dealing more damage than whatever weapon skill another class would use for that cool down.

Blurred Frenzy – super high reward for almost no risk. 2.5s evade on a 10s CD

Distortion – up to 4 second immunity to condi, power and CC, which you can even have back to back for up to 8 seconds with a trait in a line that you invest 30 in anyway. This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.

How is that for risk vs. reward?

I’m sorry but if a mesmer killed you with phantasms then he sucks because he cant land shatters, and YOU suck harder for beeing hit by phantasms till dead against a shatter mesmer. You got two chances to see phantasm skills coming, the animation casted and the phantasm animation itself. A well landed 3 clones + player body shatter can hit for 8k+ damage. That is hardly “a very small portion”.

And blurred frenzy has risk, specially against a warrior. We have to get into melee range to use it properly. Mesmer is a glass canon, melee against a warrior is a risk. It’s much safer to use staff.
You can’t compare Distortion with warrior stances, it is not equivalent to anything. Distortion actually has a drawback, strips us of all our clones (we loose both defense and offense), unlike warriors, that just press zerker stance/endure pain and keep tunneling you down and rolling their face on their keyboards.
And let’s not mention how the difference in mechanical demands of each class…

Yeah but guess why distortion erasing clones isn’t as bad. Because you have that perma-vigor trait and you can’t really count a “good” Mesmer’s dodge. You also strip boons and cleanse other people’s condition with Null-field (Which is kittened strong if you knew how to make good Mesmer builds).

Your class is also the cancer that doesn’t allow AoE in sPvP to get nerfed considering AoE is usually the best counter-play vs. Mesmers. So stop playing the martyr and actually analyze why Mesmers are just as cancerous as Warriors.

Stop defending warriors! Warriors are in a far more OP state than mesmers are atm. OH! Mesmers actually have to activate a heal from time to time to stay alive!

Amir, you are basicly missing the discussion, as this is about warriors, not mesmers. If you want to compare Mesmers to Warrior, make plz an own thread for this topic and dont discuss this issue here.

Coming BTT.:

Maybe they should just nerv the Warriors damage? … Far more like they did.
Not because I think this is the best solution, however Warriors have so many reasons, why they have much sustain, so basicly nerving their damage to make them actually need this sustain in order to kill sb would be the easier way.

Still Mesmers arent the weakest class for sure..
They are pretty strong, there were other things that kept em out of teams..

You think that a Mesmer is squishy, have low cond removal and unforgiving?

Try out a Power Ranger and you will see what a truly unforgiving build is like..

The time you touch the zerker amulet with an Ranger you get instant 5000 dmg in every pvp match you joining

Sensotix.4106:

you cant compare mesmer to warrior..please read the op post again
mesmer lacks sustain, mobility, condition removal etc etc so you cant compare mesmer to warrior

I read the op and strongly disagree with mesmer lacking sustain, mobility or condition removal.

Anyway, I am not going to make you admit you’re wrong in any case, but I will put up the same list for the mesmer, as you did for the warrior and see if we can fit it all in one build:

Mesmer:
Condition immunity on one click – check – In fact, the mesmer has a number of options with shorter duration and shorter cool down

Damage immunity on one click – check – Multiple options yet again, this time the mesmer has more access with a way higher uptime on power damage immunity than even a warrior with defy pain on top of endure pain

Nice amount of hp – check – Meaningless point. Higher base HP comes as a trade off. Mesmers have medium amount of HP

Sustain in a teamfight – check – Another strange point. What does that even mean. Either way, mesmer has one of the best heals in the game, range option, defensive tools on their weapons and utilities to get them out of a bad situation be it through stealth or teleports

Possibility to CC enemies – check – Very much check. In fact the mesmer has a possibility to not only CC the enemies but kill them by interrupting them with their CC and at the same time remove boons like stability that actually prevent CCs in the first place

Mobility (25% movement speed increase) – check (might not be the best but still) – Yeah, definitely not the best. I don’t see mesmers running traveler runes either. Mesmer’s roaming around the map is among the best with all the blinks and the stealth and definitely superior to a meta hambow build of the warrior

Condition cleanse – check – Hell yeah. The amount of condi cleanse a mesmer can have currently is unrivaled. Understandably some of it is overkill, but a single 10 point investment over the meta build and the use of a utility will give the mesmer a potential 6 condition cleanses every 23ish seconds, with up to 12 condi cleanses back to back with an interval of ~3 seconds

Stability – check – check, but not really needed. Even when the mesmer is required to stomp, he has the tools to stomp every single class. No other class can stomp all classes on their first try.

Good in duels – check – check, beats the warrior and is way superior in taking out bunkers than the warrior due to boon removal and a lot of passive damage sources that can be avoided way less frequently than simple sets of attacks

Good in teamfights – check – check, not only does the mesmer offer damage, AoE and single and also control, it also offers team support with condi cleansing, stomp denial through stealth and stomp securing through boon removal + control

Condition pressure – check (Longbow burning, bleeding) – not so much in terms of damage. Mesmers in the current build or variations of it tend to deal limited amount of condi damage, but they do add a huge number of random passive conditions that are annoying. Ranging from blinds to immobilizes, confusion, cripple and what not

Looks quite good to me.

Amir.1570:

ahuba.6430:

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.

Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.

As far as phantasms dying, yeah, they absolutely can in certain team scenarios. But if they hit even once, they are already easily dealing more damage than whatever weapon skill another class would use for that cool down.

Blurred Frenzy – super high reward for almost no risk. 2.5s evade on a 10s CD

Distortion – up to 4 second immunity to condi, power and CC, which you can even have back to back for up to 8 seconds with a trait in a line that you invest 30 in anyway. This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.

How is that for risk vs. reward?

I’m sorry but if a mesmer killed you with phantasms then he sucks because he cant land shatters, and YOU suck harder for beeing hit by phantasms till dead against a shatter mesmer. You got two chances to see phantasm skills coming, the animation casted and the phantasm animation itself. A well landed 3 clones + player body shatter can hit for 8k+ damage. That is hardly “a very small portion”.

And blurred frenzy has risk, specially against a warrior. We have to get into melee range to use it properly. Mesmer is a glass canon, melee against a warrior is a risk. It’s much safer to use staff.
You can’t compare Distortion with warrior stances, it is not equivalent to anything. Distortion actually has a drawback, strips us of all our clones (we loose both defense and offense), unlike warriors, that just press zerker stance/endure pain and keep tunneling you down and rolling their face on their keyboards.
And let’s not mention how the difference in mechanical demands of each class…

Yeah but guess why distortion erasing clones isn’t as bad. Because you have that perma-vigor trait and you can’t really count a “good” Mesmer’s dodge. You also strip boons and cleanse other people’s condition with Null-field (Which is kittened strong if you knew how to make good Mesmer builds).

Your class is also the cancer that doesn’t allow AoE in sPvP to get nerfed considering AoE is usually the best counter-play vs. Mesmers. So stop playing the martyr and actually analyze why Mesmers are just as cancerous as Warriors.

xD Mesmer probably need the distortion because they got 18k hp and 1.9k armor on zerk while wari got 23k hp and 2.4k armor… Mesmer is beside ele the the easiest to kill class. after 4s disto and probably 1stealth/port they’re freefame. espically since most run gs/staff cuz you can jump into a teamfight due to aoe stuns/condis flying round randomly..

Dardamaniac.1295:

Still Mesmers arent the weakest class for sure..
They are pretty strong, there were other things that kept em out of teams..

You think that a Mesmer is squishy, have low cond removal and unforgiving?

Try out a Power Ranger and you will see what a truly unforgiving build is like..

The time you touch the zerker amulet with an Ranger you get instant 5000 dmg in every pvp match you joining

I dont think, finding 1 build which is weaker than a whole profession, makes this a valid argument.

warrior’s signet are bugged.

when i try to disengage to run away.

the signet’s passive ability is gone.

ahuba.6430:

I’m sorry but if a mesmer killed you with phantasms then he sucks because he cant land shatters, and YOU suck harder for beeing hit by phantasms till dead against a shatter mesmer. You got two chances to see phantasm skills coming, the animation casted and the phantasm animation itself. A well landed 3 clones + player body shatter can hit for 8k+ damage. That is hardly “a very small portion”.

If you were half as smart as you think, you’d know what I am saying is the truth.

8k is two phantasm hits in a shatter build, which occur roughly every 4 seconds and not only that, but it doesn’t matter whether I see the mesmer’s animation when he summons the first berserker, because it can not be dodged. You can dodge the cast all you like, the phantasm will still appear and the only way to stop that from happening would be a blind, which you will be out of range for.

Slim.3024:

…Blurred Frenzy – super high reward for almost no risk. 2.5s evade on a 10s CD

Distortion – up to 4 second immunity to condi, power and CC, which you can even have back to back for up to 8 seconds with a trait in a line that you invest 30 in anyway. This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way…

Um… What? BF roots you, just get out of the way, honestly. The once the animation ends, the mesmer has a small period of time where he/she is still rooted in place, and you can take advantage of that.

As for Distortion… Last time I checked, it doesn’t give condi immunity, and I’m pretty sure that you can’t get 8s of it in one go, either (even with Illusionary Persona). Furthermore, only Shatter Builds really get anything out of going 30 into Illusions anyways, and a lot of the time, the damage output lost from using Distortion is extremely significant. Also, like any Invuln, it has to be used very selectively, especially while on point.

wasting of time to start a discussion in this forum^^

Um… What? BF roots you, just get out of the way, honestly. The once the animation ends, the mesmer has a small period of time where he/she is still rooted in place, and you can take advantage of that.

So you disagree that a 2.5s evade on a 10s CD qualifies as high reward for almost no risk, because it roots you in place and you can get hit after it ended on top of it dealing a good amount of damage?

As for Distortion… Last time I checked, it doesn’t give condi immunity

It’s usually a bad idea to rely on wiki when you are trying to make an argument. Distortion grants invulnerability, it’s not an evade. Way back when Blurred Frenzy would give distortion and also make you invulnerable, which later on was first changed from “distortion” to “blur”, which still granted invulnerability and subsequently was changed from an invulnerability to an evade, thus the confusion and mess you see on wiki.

As a side node, distortion even saves you from terror damage ticks, if you activate it while being feared.

, and I’m pretty sure that you can’t get 8s of it in one go, either (even with Illusionary Persona).

Illusionary Invigoration. Look it up on wiki!

Romek.4201:

wasting of time to start a discussion in this forum^^

I agree with you here. When poeple start to show facts people quit the discussion.

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Romek.4201:

i agree with op and all this effects are just tooo much to can have them all in a build

warrior need some risk in his gamepaly too and when it is not possible to move this all to different traits so they cant have everything in one build than why not give them negative effects too?

i remember in wow there was a berserker thing where warrior made some seconds more dmg but get more dmg too

so why not something like this: lower warrior armor by 40% when is condi imun?

or fix for healing signet:
- reduce passive heal by 15-20% but give the active heal a FULL HP heal but damage bonus +20% and get 20% more damage for 7 sec?

would be high risk high reward and warrior would need some skill to play

edit: another sugeestion – what you guys think bout reducing armor with weakness? would give some intersting gameplays in teamfight vs this bunkerish classes with combofields

It will be great if they do that to all classes: Example. You use bluried frenzy (you evade all attacks) but after for the same duraction you take 40% more damage.
Same with other kind of invul.

so you basically take a lot of damage from retal when using blurred frenzy and then you take even more damage while being very squishy? i see your point but i think we would have to modify that for each class

When you use a stance (any of the warrior stances with the exception of the new healing one) you are imune to something but not to all things. Your problem is when a warrior uses all stances together. But that its not really a problem because good players can work around that and because the warrior have just used all utilities just for doing that. A mesmers can use the swords blurred frenzy every 10-12 seconds and still got utilities to use, even if they use the f4 skill they still dont use any of their utilities skills. Staff have a get of jail card every 8-10 seconds. Mesmers got the most imbalanced elites in the game and they can use stealth, ports.
Mesmer is considered by many the best 1v1 class. It only became less played with this condition meta but still is a very strong one and OP in some ways.
I would like to see your thought on mesmer when you have time.

Ok. Let’s get a cold hard fact down right here right now.

Impale is the most broken skill in the game.

It’s something I’ve noticed for a long time but only recently after the hambow nerf does it seem condi wars have noticed this and taken offhand sword for the purpose of instantly applying eternal, unremovable (as it’s applied in stages) torment with next to no cast time every 15 seconds.

silentnight warrior.2714:

A mesmers can use the swords blurred frenzy every 10-12 seconds and still got utilities to use, even if they use the f4 skill they still dont use any of their utilities skills.

I am no expert, but I don’t think sword is even the go to weapon for mesmers atm.
Besides, I thought this was suposed to be a discussion about warriors. :o

Hey Sensotix,

I think your initial post is great and I can agree with most of it.

I feel that what has happened with the warrior class over the year is that Anet simply started to apply guardian strengths to the warrior class. Looking back at last years description of each class it stated specifically that warrior wasn’t very good at condition removal and needed other classes to do this for them.

That their high hp pool was due to the fact that they were missing things like a powerful condition removal and the ability to sustain through long durations. Similar to how necros have high hp pools because they are expected to mitigate through death shroud and the fact that they have poor mobility.

Even on wiki it states guardian has low hp compared to warrior because they have better passive health regeneration. But this isn’t close to being true now. Anet has essentially nullified warriors class weakness but did not bother to offset their strengths to accomodate these changes.

If warrior had low tier hp or even mid tier. I don’t feel we’d have so many complaints about them as we do now.

Reesha.7901:

silentnight warrior.2714:

A mesmers can use the swords blurred frenzy every 10-12 seconds and still got utilities to use, even if they use the f4 skill they still dont use any of their utilities skills.

I am no expert, but I don’t think sword is even the go to weapon for mesmers atm.
Besides, I thought this was suposed to be a discussion about warriors. :o

Read the first post and you will see why it turn out this way.

Sword OH its not the weapon to go at the moment with warrior and still people want that nerfed.