Guild Wars 2

can you reduce Steal CD and make it have a decent role in thief rotations ? Or give it more usefulness aside a 90% bad stolen item ?
you know, like a serious class defining mechanic.
what uses can steal have healing 2k when it’s on a 45 secs cd ?
edit: @mods
This is related to pvp and PVP ONLY, I want the discussion focused on PVP ASPECTS and I would be happy if PVP devs could answer to my question.
please do not move the thread where nobody will care about it.
thanks.

serious class defining mechanic is Steal + Initiative, not just Steal

MaXi.3642:

serious class defining mechanic is Steal + Initiative, not just Steal

What’s the point ?

Pre-mug nerf having a free, istant, 5k damage could have been gamebreaking.

Now that mug won’t crit, so will never deal more than 3 k damage ( with might stacking, bloodlust and all stars aligned), Steal is really TERRIBLE and has absolutely no reason to be at 45 secs CD.

even more since in order to get its CD reduced we need to go with a traitline ( trickery) that offers bad traits, bad stats and bad sinergy, and is used in other builds simply for Preparedness.

90% of the steals are bad? Stop doing drugs..

Mesmer: All boons, very strong
Warrior: Plain better than the warriors own version of it(axe 5)
Ranger: Very good if you combine it with soem blast finishers¨
Thief: Free stealth without having to use initative/utility/heal and it blinds
Necro: Better fear than any of the necros own fear and it also goes through some/all blocks(bug maybe?)
Engineer: Maybe not super strong but it’s pretty strong if you can immob a target inside of it, or use blast finisher to get chaos armor
Elementalist: Also not stupidly strong but it’s a fantastic snare
Guardian: Good free daze

point is that you cry that Steal isnt worth to be a class defining mechanic, i told you its not class defining mechanic itself so there is a reason why its not better…

as they said, they want to tone down thiefs burst and increase his survivability… you have got 2k heal for that crit ability for one skill, thats solid, be happy they didnt only nerf it like they did with ele

MaXi.3642:

point is that you cry that Steal isnt worth to be a class defining mechanic, i told you its not class defining mechanic itself so there is a reason why its not better…

as they said, they want to tone down thiefs burst and increase his survivability… you have got 2k heal for that crit ability for one skill, thats solid, be happy they didnt only nerf it like they did with ele

It’s not solid. It’s a 2k heal every 45 secs.

Thief survivability was terrible before, it’s not going to become suddenly uber strong thanks to a LOL 2K HEAL EVERY 45 SECS.

On the other side, thief burst will be nerfed badly.

Can we please focus this discussion on the fact that the thief is bottom tier in PvP and the proff needs help, please ?

There’s a reason why thief is bottom tier, and it’s due to their absolutely crappy versatility and survivability and horrible capabilities in weapon sets/utilities aside burst.

Steal being on a 45 secs, being a single skill instead of multiple ones and its horrible effects aside ranger/necro ones are one of the main, MANY reason.

Thief gets 2k heal… mehhh survivability still sucks, makes no difference
Thief loses about 2k damage in burst…. omg the world is ending burst builds are trash now!!!!!!11!!1!!1! (whatever do you do when mug doesn’t crit now?)

:D

I would not mind seeing some of the steal items reworked, particularly engineer. No one ever stands in that. Maybe warrior’s too, as a thief can’t really stand up in melee in a team fight where that sort of aoe shines. It’s strong if you can pull it off though. Guardian and ele are decent, if the ele item was ranged it would be great. The others are fine.

I would not be opposed to knocking down the CD a little bit, but I’d be surprised if they did it.

MaXi.3642:

they want to tone down thiefs burst and increase his survivability… you have got 2k heal for that crit ability for one skill, thats solid, be happy they didnt only nerf it like they did with ele

2k heal on a class running 90% glass cannon with no armor, 13k hp, no protection buffs, and no heals outside 6 (And they all sux at healing too)

…for sure 2k every 45 secs for a class that can go down in like 2 secs flat if focused for just a moment would bring so much survivability…yeah…sure…we’re not talking about eles here, thieves don’t have 2k+++ heals all over their skillbar (+ dodges and stuff) + protection+vigor+regen+everything else and a crapton of stunbreakers and when all of this it’s not enough they can still go invulnerable….you have your 6, after that you are dead or you must go stealth…and if you go stealth ppl just start putting aoes here and there…and you’re dead anyway.

Archaon.6245:

MaXi.3642:

they want to tone down thiefs burst and increase his survivability… you have got 2k heal for that crit ability for one skill, thats solid, be happy they didnt only nerf it like they did with ele

2k heal on a class running 90% glass cannon with no armor, 13k hp, no protection buffs, and no heals outside 6 (And they all sux at healing too)

…for sure 2k every 45 secs for a class that can go down in like 2 secs flat if focused for just a moment would bring so much survivability…yeah…sure…we’re not talking about eles here, thieves don’t have 2k+++ heals all over their skillbar (+ dodges and stuff) + protection+vigor+regen+everything else and a crapton of stunbreakers and when all of this it’s not enough they can still go invulnerable….you have your 6, after that you are dead or you must go stealth…and if you go stealth ppl just start putting aoes here and there…and you’re dead anyway.

But hey, everything will be fine. Now steal heals for 2 k !!!

New bunker thief meta, with its OP 2k heal every 45 secs.

Mrbig.8019:

Archaon.6245:

MaXi.3642:

they want to tone down thiefs burst and increase his survivability… you have got 2k heal for that crit ability for one skill, thats solid, be happy they didnt only nerf it like they did with ele

2k heal on a class running 90% glass cannon with no armor, 13k hp, no protection buffs, and no heals outside 6 (And they all sux at healing too)

…for sure 2k every 45 secs for a class that can go down in like 2 secs flat if focused for just a moment would bring so much survivability…yeah…sure…we’re not talking about eles here, thieves don’t have 2k+++ heals all over their skillbar (+ dodges and stuff) + protection+vigor+regen+everything else and a crapton of stunbreakers and when all of this it’s not enough they can still go invulnerable….you have your 6, after that you are dead or you must go stealth…and if you go stealth ppl just start putting aoes here and there…and you’re dead anyway.

But hey, everything will be fine. Now steal heals for 2 k !!!

New bunker thief meta, with its OP 2k heal every 45 secs.

Thief midpoint king motherkitteners!!

lol…but not so much…

Mug dealing dmg? = Fine no prob.
Mug dealing dmg + self healing? = Bad.

Seriously?!

Volrath.1473:

Mug dealing dmg? = Fine no prob.
Mug dealing dmg + self healing? = Bad.

Seriously?!

Problem is that thieves are meant to deal burst dmg, and noone gives a crap about a stupid 2k self healing for a class that dies with a sneeze, all you need is dmg and putting all that dmg out in a short time…so mug nerf it’s stupid, they’re taking away dmg (Almost the only thing thief is made for) for a stupid and totally worthless 2k heal that won’t save you from nothing, what’s the point of 2k heal if a glass cannon’s autoattack deals like 1k+ to a glass thief?

Volrath.1473:

Mug dealing dmg? = Fine no prob.
Mug dealing dmg + self healing? = Bad.

Seriously?!

All the damage on Mug comes from crits and traiting + gear to get the crit multiplier up ~110%

Without crits Mug will never do more than ~2.5k of damage and a 2k heal every 45s. On a skill that is often used as a gap closer + opener the heal is effectively useless. Steal didn’t need a heal and it definitely didn’t need its damage cut in half.

Errant Venture.9371:

Steal didn’t need a heal and it definitely didn’t need its damage cut in half.

Except that Mug is overpowered at its current state.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Errant Venture.9371:

Steal didn’t need a heal and it definitely didn’t need its damage cut in half.

Except that Mug is overpowered at its current state.

Except that it’s not considering that it’s on a 45s rehcarge and can be blocked (noticed the aegis + invuln spam that’s on EVERY bunker in the meta right now?)

Vuh.1328:

90% of the steals are bad? Stop doing drugs..

Mesmer: All boons, very strong
Warrior: Plain better than the warriors own version of it(axe 5)
Ranger: Very good if you combine it with soem blast finishers¨
Thief: Free stealth without having to use initative/utility/heal and it blinds
Necro: Better fear than any of the necros own fear and it also goes through some/all blocks(bug maybe?)
Engineer: Maybe not super strong but it’s pretty strong if you can immob a target inside of it, or use blast finisher to get chaos armor
Elementalist: Also not stupidly strong but it’s a fantastic snare
Guardian: Good free daze

Mesmer: I agree. I love the boons!
Warrior: I hate this one. It makes me a sitting duck.
Ranger: I like this one and enjoy the heals. It being a combo field is very nice.
Thief: A solid ability. I only wish it was instant cast like Blinding Powder but I can live with it the way it is.
Necro: A solid fear/CC that can hit multiple people.
Engineer: It’s ok. If you aren’t taking advantage of the combo field than it’s pretty worthless. Field size could be bigger.
Elementalist: A solid snare but also difficult to land. It’s also hard to use against Eles since it can be cleared off so quick when they are looking to heal/getaway.
Guardian: At 4 seconds it is a powerful daze. Only downside is it’s hard to land which is probably a good tradeoff.

Errant Venture.9371:

Except that it’s not considering that it’s on a 45s rehcarge and can be blocked (noticed the aegis + invuln spam that’s on EVERY bunker in the meta right now?)

Mug is overpowered as an adept trait. You’ll rarely find an adept trait this strong for other professions.

Honestly, this is just a big nerf for Thieves, because burst is all we have right now.

I don’t understand the reasoning behind the heal, however. It seems very minimal and a waste if it’s instant when you initiate with Steal, which is the sole purpose of the skill in my eyes. Gap closer > the ability you steal.

I do agree, Mug was overpowered, especially considering the trait investment was so minimal.

All in all, it will make the best thief build weaker and perhaps allow SD to be viable, but I still feel that weaponset is gimmicky.
Spamming to clear boons sounds just as boring as spamming to apply boons, imo Eles…

I liked the high risk / high reward playstyle of Thief and don’t agree we need another class with sustained damage and survivability… which can always be achieved by taking more conservative runes/amulet combinations.

Though, I am excited for the increased mobility, I was confused about why they weren’t more specific about it.

this fix is just dumb … a good fix would be that u cant use a skill + steal at the same time and land both hits.

I think you guys are ignoring the new good thing about what they are gonna do to thieves this patch… Flanking strike is going to be a spammable boon stealer… that is going to help survivability big time.

^Not sure if srs.

ensoriki.5789:

^Not sure if srs.

Somewhat… It’s not going to make thieves much more survivable than they are… But S/D+bountiful theft is going to help you guys deal with bunkers easier than before… a d/d ele without boons is just a soft class with marginal toughness low health and bad damage guardians without boons are slow no damage somewhat survivable tanks thanks to the armor… Plus don’t you love running sword builds? What I got from SOTG flanking strike is going to rip multiple boons and give them to you… And if they really are going to fix the pathing on this skill then ho hum…

There wasn’t any indication that it’s any more boon removal than FS does already.
The problem with taking bountiful is that S/ and D/ have nothing to build off of trickeries condition damage. So for traiting to get it, you do lose damage simply because neither of the two weapons are supported well by the line nor is there any traits in the line outside of Caltrops dodge that even work off the stat it gives to make it more meaningful.
More often then not it’s not worth it by itself.

jportell.2197:

a d/d ele without boons is just a soft class with marginal toughness low health and bad damage guardians without boons are slow no damage somewhat survivable tanks thanks to the armor…

this and dont forget to take a warrior with signet of might with you to finish that almost dead guardian using blockheal gg “bunkers”

Gz on the “kit refinement treatment”

http://youtu.be/ZkiSYmn74os

ensoriki.5789:

There wasn’t any indication that it’s any more boon removal than FS does already.
The problem with taking bountiful is that S/ and D/ have nothing to build off of trickeries condition damage. So for traiting to get it, you do lose damage simply because neither of the two weapons are supported well by the line nor is there any traits in the line outside of Caltrops dodge that even work off the stat it gives to make it more meaningful.
More often then not it’s not worth it by itself.

Larcenists Strike-steal boons upon activation after flanking strike. They didn’t say how many but they didn’t say stealing one boon only… (watching SOTG now to be sure) So I imagine it being three boons. gotta wait to see… But it is going to give the thief the some defensive boons.

Thieves will just be useless now. I really don’t understand the point of this nerf. The class that was supposed to be strongest of all in 1v1 combat, will become the weakest.

srsly, this is the same state as with Quickness, thiefs cryied that they are crap, useless, lowest tier… didnt noticed it ingame… you just lost 2k dmg at max every 45sec, thats not end of the world, thats one more autoattack…

Errant Venture.9371:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Errant Venture.9371:

Steal didn’t need a heal and it definitely didn’t need its damage cut in half.

Except that Mug is overpowered at its current state.

Except that it’s not considering that it’s on a 45s rehcarge and can be blocked (noticed the aegis + invuln spam that’s on EVERY bunker in the meta right now?)

True but bunkers are getting a big hit and you can now make bunker buster builds.

MaXi.3642:

srsly, this is the same state as with Quickness, thiefs cryied that they are crap, useless, lowest tier… didnt noticed it ingame… you just lost 2k dmg at max every 45sec, thats not end of the world, thats one more autoattack…

It’s a long list of nerfs that continue to constrain the thief into fewer builds which is the problem. Dancing Daggers, Assassin’s Signet, stealth reveal debuff increase, Heartseeker threshold nerf, Mug. All pretty heavy DPS nerfs (stealth reveal harms conditions as well as direct DPS).

And I expect there will be a nerf to precasting CnD, nerf to Heartseeker leap distance, D/P nerf to prevent black powder/HS stealth etc.

The problem with the class is that it is a noob harvester. Skilled players find thieves food… unskilled are on the menu.

Personally I like playing multiple builds on any class I play and the thief is running out of viable ones each patch. We’ll probably see more heavy heal thieves after the patch (I sometimes run apothecary in WvW and shaman in SPVP) and they will be complained about bevause they just don’t die. They also don’t cap points nor kill anyone… but the simple act of being alive will be too much for most people.

problem is that thief have too much burst, i agree with ANet, he needs lower burst and increased survivability, so he can really fight and not just burst kill or die… thats cheesy for both noob enemies who die too quickly and skilled thiefs who are not rewarded enough

i, as a ex WoW player, remember rogue and his playstyle, if he would be able to do the same what is thief able to do here, all players would stomp blizzard into the ground insta kills from stealth, repeated stealth, no movement slow in stealth, no spec required to get shadowstep (=steal) etc only thing rogue has better is stunlock imo

Faeyd.5094:

MaXi.3642:

srsly, this is the same state as with Quickness, thiefs cryied that they are crap, useless, lowest tier… didnt noticed it ingame… you just lost 2k dmg at max every 45sec, thats not end of the world, thats one more autoattack…

It’s a long list of nerfs that continue to constrain the thief into fewer builds which is the problem. Dancing Daggers, Assassin’s Signet, stealth reveal debuff increase, Heartseeker threshold nerf, Mug. All pretty heavy DPS nerfs (stealth reveal harms conditions as well as direct DPS).

And I expect there will be a nerf to precasting CnD, nerf to Heartseeker leap distance, D/P nerf to prevent black powder/HS stealth etc.

The problem with the class is that it is a noob harvester. Skilled players find thieves food… unskilled are on the menu.

Personally I like playing multiple builds on any class I play and the thief is running out of viable ones each patch. We’ll probably see more heavy heal thieves after the patch (I sometimes run apothecary in WvW and shaman in SPVP) and they will be complained about bevause they just don’t die. They also don’t cap points nor kill anyone… but the simple act of being alive will be too much for most people.

This is happening across several classes… Not just thief… Consider for instance why you don’t see many condition mesmers in PvP… Because confusion isn’t very punishing there and that is really the only condition we don’t have random but consistent access too… They are now reducing confusion in WvW to PvP levels… hence limiting builds for us in wvw… What I find annoying is the 4s revealed debuff is staying in place for sPvP when it was intended to really affect WvW because of culling….

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Errant Venture.9371:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Errant Venture.9371:

Steal didn’t need a heal and it definitely didn’t need its damage cut in half.

Except that Mug is overpowered at its current state.

Except that it’s not considering that it’s on a 45s rehcarge and can be blocked (noticed the aegis + invuln spam that’s on EVERY bunker in the meta right now?)

True but bunkers are getting a big hit and you can now make bunker buster builds.

what big hit ? boon hate ?
maybe warriors will now be stronger against bunkers, but wars have WAY MORE sustained damage than thieves ( omg CHOP).

S/D has effectively no ways to deal with bunkers, due to lack of damage compared to D/X builds (most mostly because of bad traits synergy, low base damage and absolutely 0 traits for the sword ), lack of survivability (no BP, access to stealth reliant on melee attacks which can be blocked/dodged etc etc) and high vulnerability to burst, ESPECIALLY D/P thieves that will eat S/D thieves for breakfast ( a simple bp is enough to completely shut down such a slow and clunky set).

even after the nerf, D/P will still be our strongest set, with the only difference that now thives will rely even more on their allies in order to bring our opponents down to 50% health for us, because our burst won’t be enough anymore otherwise (ROFLMAO when backstab back stab doesn’t crit).

very good reason to start l2p D/D ele dps with double arcane, way superior (S/D dps has aleays been superior but rtl nerf actually hits them too much).

-> jportell

thats another story, they need to buff unused skill and traits along with nerfing the ones which are OP…

just look at ele, all he have is one OP cantrip D/D build, everything else is crap (maybe except the aurashare to be honest)… and the patch? nerfs, nerfs, nerfs… none use fire traits, none use earth traits, air traits just a little, still nothing is done except nerfs

and confusion is another story too, they nerfed it too much considering the number of its sources it is unviable now imo

Some people are not aware of how strong boons are in this game. Boons make or break bunker guardians, make or break bunker eles, and are an extremely powerful tool for some other builds (might for hgh engineer, might for scepter ele, etc).

Being able to steal boons at anytime you need, for several times in a row, will surely drain your adrenaline fast, but you’ll reap 10-25 stacks of might from some professions, you’re rip protection, stability and high stacks of regeneration, vigor or fury from others. Don’t understimate the power of eating massive might + fury + something else from gcs, or vigor + regeneration + protection from bunkers. It’s not only your thief that is going to get much stronger long-term damage or gain massive survivability – it’s also your opponent that is going to no longer be able to burst you down, or fend itself against you.

MaXi.3642:

srsly, this is the same state as with Quickness, thiefs cryied that they are crap, useless, lowest tier… didnt noticed it ingame… you just lost 2k dmg at max every 45sec, thats not end of the world, thats one more autoattack…

I am not saying that the burst should have remained untouched, but anyone believing that this simply translates to 2k damage every 45 seconds is simply ignorant of current gameplay.

What at first glance looks like nothing more than a up to 55% reduced damage on steal is actually translating to much more

When a thief was using D/P, they’d either initiate with BP and proceed to Steal into a Heartseeker for Backstab or they would steal into a Backstab out of stealth. So let’s take a look at the old numbers and compare them to the new ones (I am going to assume the 3rd utility used will be the assassin’s signet):

BP ~1k damage critical on <1.9k armor
Steal ~5.5k damage critical on <1.9k armor, if target has any condition
Heartseeker ~3.75k damage critical on <1.9k armor, if target has any condition and more than 50% health; 6.6k on critical, if target is below 50% health
Backstab ~8.5k damage critical on <1.9k armor, if target has any condition and more than 50% health: 10.2k damage critical, if target is below 50% health
Lightning Strike ~1.5k damage on <1.9k armor, if target has any condition and more than 50% health; 1.8, if target is below 50% health

As you can see I listed the full burst capabilities of the most obvious thief opening burst (takes 1.5 seconds in total to perform and only, if you are positioned behind your target when you engage). I didn’t include figures for Steal and BP below 50% for obvious reasons (1k damage BP, even if you get a lightning proc can not take anybody below 50% from full health).

Feel free to check these numbers in game and you will find that they are as accurate as it gets.

If you analyze the numbers above, you will understand how critical (pun intended) it is to drop your target below 50% before the heartseeker and the backstab land. The total damage can amount to 25k, if everything crits and the target has less than ~16k health and ~2k armor.

Now using above numbers to determine the possible damage reduction for a burst post patch, we’ll get this:

BP ~1k damage critical on <1.9k armor
Steal ~2.6k damage on <1.9k armor, if target has any condition – You can not proc Lightning Strike off this, basically halving your chance to add 1.5k damage before Heartseeker, as the chance for a proc now rests entirely on your Black Powder
Heartseeker ~3.75k damage critical on <1.9k armor, if target has any condition and more than 50% health; [6.6k on critical, if target is below 50% health] – It is now virtually impossible for Heartseeker to hit a target below 50%, as you will only deal about 3.6k with BP + Steal
Backstab ~8.5k damage critical on <1.9k armor, if target has any condition and more than 50% health: [10.2k damage critical, if target is below 50% health] – unlikely for backstab to hit under 50% post patch, as BP + Steal + Heartseeker will deal around 7k most of the time, though if you get a lightning strike proc, you may still get the benefit against other thieves with little over 14k health total
Lightning Strike ~1.5k damage on <1.9k armor, if target has any condition and more than 50% health; 1.8, if target is below 50% health

Let’s sum this up for a TLDR:

Currently you can deal up to 25k damage to somebody with less than 1.9k armor and 16k health by using the most obvious opening burst, which takes 1.5s to perform if you initiate it from the back.

Post-Mug nerf your maximum damage with the same opener (remember assassin’s signet is used for all of this as well) on the same target will be 15.85k damage (up to backstab), unless you proc a Lightning Strike off Heartseeker or Blinding Powder. If you do, your maximum damage goes up to ~19k against said target.

PS: I can provide numbers for the StealStab in another post, if people are interested.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Some people are not aware of how strong boons are in this game. Boons make or break bunker guardians, make or break bunker eles, and are an extremely powerful tool for some other builds (might for hgh engineer, might for scepter ele, etc).

Being able to steal boons at anytime you need, for several times in a row, will surely drain your adrenaline fast, but you’ll reap 10-25 stacks of might from some professions, you’re rip protection, stability and high stacks of regeneration, vigor or fury from others. Don’t understimate the power of eating massive might + fury + something else from gcs, or vigor + regeneration + protection from bunkers. It’s not only your thief that is going to get much stronger long-term damage or gain massive survivability – it’s also your opponent that is going to no longer be able to burst you down, or fend itself against you.

eles are the only ones relying on boons.

bunker guards relies on BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK, then invu, then again BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK ( that’s the main reason why engies melt them )

Mrbig.8019:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Some people are not aware of how strong boons are in this game. Boons make or break bunker guardians, make or break bunker eles, and are an extremely powerful tool for some other builds (might for hgh engineer, might for scepter ele, etc).

Being able to steal boons at anytime you need, for several times in a row, will surely drain your adrenaline fast, but you’ll reap 10-25 stacks of might from some professions, you’re rip protection, stability and high stacks of regeneration, vigor or fury from others. Don’t understimate the power of eating massive might + fury + something else from gcs, or vigor + regeneration + protection from bunkers. It’s not only your thief that is going to get much stronger long-term damage or gain massive survivability – it’s also your opponent that is going to no longer be able to burst you down, or fend itself against you.

eles are the only ones relying on boons.

bunker guards relies on BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK, then invu, then again BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK ( that’s the main reason why engies melt them )

So a shout bunker guardian uses absolutely no boons? Or the traits where conditions are converted to boons on shouts has nothing to do with boons? A good bunker guardian relies HEAVILY on boons not (block block block) you can have a guardian play style for that but the meta tPvP bunker guard is going to run Hammer+Mace/Shield… and why? High up time on protection and regen (BOONS). Normally guardians that are not bunker built go down quite quickly when up against condition heavy classes…. And HGH engis melt guardians because they have the most reliable access to very harsh conditions out of anyone in game… Essentially the guardians condition removal cannot keep up with their condition application. And a large part of guardians condition removal depends on shouts which in turn give BOONS! The only invuln they have access too is on a very long CD.

jportell.2197:

Mrbig.8019:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Some people are not aware of how strong boons are in this game. Boons make or break bunker guardians, make or break bunker eles, and are an extremely powerful tool for some other builds (might for hgh engineer, might for scepter ele, etc).

Being able to steal boons at anytime you need, for several times in a row, will surely drain your adrenaline fast, but you’ll reap 10-25 stacks of might from some professions, you’re rip protection, stability and high stacks of regeneration, vigor or fury from others. Don’t understimate the power of eating massive might + fury + something else from gcs, or vigor + regeneration + protection from bunkers. It’s not only your thief that is going to get much stronger long-term damage or gain massive survivability – it’s also your opponent that is going to no longer be able to burst you down, or fend itself against you.

eles are the only ones relying on boons.

bunker guards relies on BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK, then invu, then again BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK ( that’s the main reason why engies melt them )

So a shout bunker guardian uses absolutely no boons? Or the traits where conditions are converted to boons on shouts has nothing to do with boons? A good bunker guardian relies HEAVILY on boons not (block block block) you can have a guardian play style for that but the meta tPvP bunker guard is going to run Hammer+Mace/Shield… and why? High up time on protection and regen (BOONS). Normally guardians that are not bunker built go down quite quickly when up against condition heavy classes…. And HGH engis melt guardians because they have the most reliable access to very harsh conditions out of anyone in game… Essentially the guardians condition removal cannot keep up with their condition application. And a large part of guardians condition removal depends on shouts which in turn give BOONS! The only invuln they have access too is on a very long CD.

loool

guardian blocks are thier heal, costant aegis reapplication via traits and with their weapons.

they usually run with sword/focus instead of hammer ( hammer is not for bunkering) for its projectile reflection+ BLOCK and condi removal.

shouts are used SOLELY for stability and condi removal, nothing else: they don’t rely on boons gained via shouts, they rely on shouts condi removal.

I mean, it seems we’re playing a whole different meta game, where bunker thieves rule supreme with their OP steal heal, where guards depend EXCLUSIVELY on boons and where thieves are top tier.

cmon

The Boon-Uptime from Shouts is relatively short(Around 7 Seconds).
Guess the plan with the upcoming S/D-Change is to rip/steal boons from Eles and Engis. Especially those Might-Stacks.
Sadly D/P will still be more valuable for a thief. Why steal their boons if you can simply burst them down?

Med.6150:

Currently you can deal up to 25k damage to somebody with less than 1.9k armor and 16k health by using the most obvious opening burst, which takes 1.5s to perform if you initiate it from the back.

Post-Mug nerf your maximum damage with the same opener (remember assassin’s signet is used for all of this as well) on the same target will be 15.85k damage (up to backstab), unless you proc a Lightning Strike off Heartseeker or Blinding Powder. If you do, your maximum damage goes up to ~19k against said target.

dont take it personally, but you really think that 25k dmg in 1,5sec is OK and try to defend it? you must be joking, you only proved that this nerf was neccessary 15k is still high enough to kill your target if he doesnt dodge and heal fast enough… i dont think thief is supposed to instagib people on his own… and as ANet stated, they dont think it too

Mrbig.8019:

jportell.2197:

Mrbig.8019:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Some people are not aware of how strong boons are in this game. Boons make or break bunker guardians, make or break bunker eles, and are an extremely powerful tool for some other builds (might for hgh engineer, might for scepter ele, etc).

Being able to steal boons at anytime you need, for several times in a row, will surely drain your adrenaline fast, but you’ll reap 10-25 stacks of might from some professions, you’re rip protection, stability and high stacks of regeneration, vigor or fury from others. Don’t understimate the power of eating massive might + fury + something else from gcs, or vigor + regeneration + protection from bunkers. It’s not only your thief that is going to get much stronger long-term damage or gain massive survivability – it’s also your opponent that is going to no longer be able to burst you down, or fend itself against you.

eles are the only ones relying on boons.

bunker guards relies on BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK, then invu, then again BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK ( that’s the main reason why engies melt them )

So a shout bunker guardian uses absolutely no boons? Or the traits where conditions are converted to boons on shouts has nothing to do with boons? A good bunker guardian relies HEAVILY on boons not (block block block) you can have a guardian play style for that but the meta tPvP bunker guard is going to run Hammer+Mace/Shield… and why? High up time on protection and regen (BOONS). Normally guardians that are not bunker built go down quite quickly when up against condition heavy classes…. And HGH engis melt guardians because they have the most reliable access to very harsh conditions out of anyone in game… Essentially the guardians condition removal cannot keep up with their condition application. And a large part of guardians condition removal depends on shouts which in turn give BOONS! The only invuln they have access too is on a very long CD.

loool

guardian blocks are thier heal, costant aegis reapplication via traits and with their weapons.

they usually run with sword/focus instead of hammer ( hammer is not for bunkering) for its projectile reflection+ BLOCK and condi removal.

shouts are used SOLELY for stability and condi removal, nothing else: they don’t rely on boons gained via shouts, they rely on shouts condi removal.

I mean, it seems we’re playing a whole different meta game, where bunker thieves rule supreme with their OP steal heal, where guards depend EXCLUSIVELY on boons and where thieves are top tier.

cmon

What? Sword/focus is very offensive hence why bunker builds dont use it. Hammer offers amazing point control plus protection which is more important than might when bunkering. Mace/shield has amazing point control as well plus two heals a block and protection. A good bunker build will take signet of resolve over sanctuary because of the passive Condi removal and use virtue of resolve to heal themselves plus using shouts…. When I bunker I hardly ever use my heal skill because the build allows for so much healing through other sources…. You truly know jack about bunker guard builds if you think sword focus is better for bunkering over mace shield…. I mean cmon… Look where the traits for these weapons are sowrd focus traits are all in power or precision lines hammer and mace/shield are in toughness lines…

MaXi.3642:

Med.6150:

Currently you can deal up to 25k damage to somebody with less than 1.9k armor and 16k health by using the most obvious opening burst, which takes 1.5s to perform if you initiate it from the back.

Post-Mug nerf your maximum damage with the same opener (remember assassin’s signet is used for all of this as well) on the same target will be 15.85k damage (up to backstab), unless you proc a Lightning Strike off Heartseeker or Blinding Powder. If you do, your maximum damage goes up to ~19k against said target.

dont take it personally, but you really think that 25k dmg in 1,5sec is OK and try to defend it? you must be joking, you only proved that this nerf was neccessary 15k is still high enough to kill your target if he doesnt dodge and heal fast enough… i dont think thief is supposed to instagib people on his own… and as ANet stated, they dont think it too

I am losing faith in humanity. No matter how explicit and concise you state something, there’s always somebody who simply can’t read. Here we go:

1. My opening statement:

I am not saying that the burst should have remained untouched, but anyone believing that this simply translates to 2k damage every 45 seconds is simply ignorant of current gameplay.

2. These are theoretical numbers that compare the absolute maximum damage under very specific conditions. Saying “a thief deals 25k in 1.5s is inaccurate”. A thief can not deal 25k in 1.5s to a target that has 25k HPs for instance. A thief can currently deal 25k damage to a target with less than 1.9k armor and less than 16k HPs. Have you ever taken 25k, when you only had 16k? It happens very, very rarely, because probability can not be discarded entirely, except for when you are presenting a theoretical argument

3. I’ll state again that the burst is currently too strong. Not because it’s too strong compared to another class, but because it’s bad for the game. Just like excessive survivability is bad for the game. I am merely stating that when people claim the thief only loses 2k damage every 45 seconds, they are not grasping the extent of this upcoming nerf.

4. Reality will see thief bursting glass cannons for no more than 10k post patch, probably less. You draw your own conclusions regarding burst thieves based on that prediction, if you will.

jportell.2197:

Mrbig.8019:

jportell.2197:

Mrbig.8019:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Some people are not aware of how strong boons are in this game. Boons make or break bunker guardians, make or break bunker eles, and are an extremely powerful tool for some other builds (might for hgh engineer, might for scepter ele, etc).

Being able to steal boons at anytime you need, for several times in a row, will surely drain your adrenaline fast, but you’ll reap 10-25 stacks of might from some professions, you’re rip protection, stability and high stacks of regeneration, vigor or fury from others. Don’t understimate the power of eating massive might + fury + something else from gcs, or vigor + regeneration + protection from bunkers. It’s not only your thief that is going to get much stronger long-term damage or gain massive survivability – it’s also your opponent that is going to no longer be able to burst you down, or fend itself against you.

eles are the only ones relying on boons.

bunker guards relies on BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK, then invu, then again BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK ( that’s the main reason why engies melt them )

So a shout bunker guardian uses absolutely no boons? Or the traits where conditions are converted to boons on shouts has nothing to do with boons? A good bunker guardian relies HEAVILY on boons not (block block block) you can have a guardian play style for that but the meta tPvP bunker guard is going to run Hammer+Mace/Shield… and why? High up time on protection and regen (BOONS). Normally guardians that are not bunker built go down quite quickly when up against condition heavy classes…. And HGH engis melt guardians because they have the most reliable access to very harsh conditions out of anyone in game… Essentially the guardians condition removal cannot keep up with their condition application. And a large part of guardians condition removal depends on shouts which in turn give BOONS! The only invuln they have access too is on a very long CD.

loool

guardian blocks are thier heal, costant aegis reapplication via traits and with their weapons.

they usually run with sword/focus instead of hammer ( hammer is not for bunkering) for its projectile reflection+ BLOCK and condi removal.

shouts are used SOLELY for stability and condi removal, nothing else: they don’t rely on boons gained via shouts, they rely on shouts condi removal.

I mean, it seems we’re playing a whole different meta game, where bunker thieves rule supreme with their OP steal heal, where guards depend EXCLUSIVELY on boons and where thieves are top tier.

cmon

What? Sword/focus is very offensive hence why bunker builds dont use it. Hammer offers amazing point control plus protection which is more important than might when bunkering. Mace/shield has amazing point control as well plus two heals a block and protection. A good bunker build will take signet of resolve over sanctuary because of the passive Condi removal and use virtue of resolve to heal themselves plus using shouts…. When I bunker I hardly ever use my heal skill because the build allows for so much healing through other sources…. You truly know jack about bunker guard builds if you think sword focus is better for bunkering over mace shield…. I mean cmon… Look where the traits for these weapons are sowrd focus traits are all in power or precision lines hammer and mace/shield are in toughness lines…

danto

wot r u doin

danto

pls

danto

STAHP

@Med

Please stop, sense is not allowed in this thread.

So you give an example of one? Good for you… when it comes to team support and point control hammer and mace/shield are better… Hammer for skill 5 which is area denial… Hammer skill 4 is also point denial with its blow out. Mace for the healing and shield for team protection point denial and healing… Sword focus is individual focused… not team… Hence why mace/shield will always be better for bunkers.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Errant Venture.9371:

Except that it’s not considering that it’s on a 45s rehcarge and can be blocked (noticed the aegis + invuln spam that’s on EVERY bunker in the meta right now?)

Mug is overpowered as an adept trait. You’ll rarely find an adept trait this strong for other professions.

Should have moved the trait not gimmped it.
The point is to make more builds viable not trash one in exchange for another.

Anyways.
Mug is instant, if someone blocks your mug you kittened up or got terribly unlucky.

jportell.2197:

So you give an example of one? Good for you… when it comes to team support and point control hammer and mace/shield are better… Hammer for skill 5 which is area denial… Hammer skill 4 is also point denial with its blow out. Mace for the healing and shield for team protection point denial and healing… Sword focus is individual focused… not team… Hence why mace/shield will always be better for bunkers.

lol infact he runs mace/focus and sword/shield.

bring sword and focus ( in whatever set you want) instead of the hammer offers:

1: projectile absorption
2: instant teleport if you’re slammered out of the point.
3: condi removal+ blind+regen
4: anti-burst ( it can be activated while stunned) shield, if not it’s still a 5 hit block

Hammer offers good point control, but infact it’s for point control, not for bunkering.

you can run with hammer if you want, but you will be MELTED by necros/rangers/engies in less than 30 secs even if running a triple shout build without a good projectile absorption.

Not only that, but even a GS mesmer traited for boon stripping ( lol who doesn’t) could kitten on your stability and knock you out of the point.

Even scepter is a better bunkering weapon, due to ethereal chains.

Remove 2k heal on Steal and add 10-15% dmg reduction for 3-5 sec after using Steal. Fits the hit&run style.

Mrbig.8019:

jportell.2197:

So you give an example of one? Good for you… when it comes to team support and point control hammer and mace/shield are better… Hammer for skill 5 which is area denial… Hammer skill 4 is also point denial with its blow out. Mace for the healing and shield for team protection point denial and healing… Sword focus is individual focused… not team… Hence why mace/shield will always be better for bunkers.

lol infact he runs mace/focus and sword/shield.

bring sword and focus ( in whatever set you want) instead of the hammer offers:

1: projectile absorption
2: instant teleport if you’re slammered out of the point.
3: condi removal+ blind+regen
4: anti-burst ( it can be activated while stunned) shield, if not it’s still a 5 hit block

Hammer offers good point control, but infact it’s for point control, not for bunkering.

you can run with hammer if you want, but you will be MELTED by necros/rangers/engies in less than 30 secs even if running a triple shout build without a good projectile absorption.

Not only that, but even a GS mesmer traited for boon stripping ( lol who doesn’t) could kitten on your stability and knock you out of the point.

Even scepter is a better bunkering weapon, due to ethereal chains.

The ONLY build that has melted me is an HGH engi… I laugh at rangers necros (shatter mes with boon strip is meant to be the anti bunker). But my guard build can handle two consecutive corrupt boons/wells of corruption no problem… it is the anti condition build. I will stick with hammer because of the point control. Bunkering and point control go hand in hand…..

I personally can’t wait for this change to mug. It’s gonna be great. Currently, I sit back at high health level and wait to vulture a kill with my mug/bs combo burst. But the one thing that I always felt I lacked was a solid overheal. Nothing is more rewarding than seeing a heal that was unnecessary because you already had full health. Further, I currently find that when I vulture a combo on someone that is at 50% health..they almost always die. Now, with the reduction to mug, I’ll finally have a bit of gamble thrown in. Maybe they won’t die to the combo… maybe I will. This is what makes the game intense and super fun.

Looking forward to patch!