Guild Wars 2

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

ah u mean ether renewal

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Renewal

it has a 15 seconds recharge time.
3.5 seconds activation time, can be interrupted.

surely one can reduce an elementalist’s health from 100% to 89% within 15 seconds?

yes, sorry i meant ether renewal. i’m not saying that it’s unbeatable, but that resetting the threshold will be a big part of the trait’s gameplay. earth gives great stability options, so renewal won’t necessarily be interrupted all that often.

Oh god, you mean Ill actually have to use my brain and do damage before I start spamming condis on the point???

This thread is very funny. Many of the users against DS are the very same users that back in the day created daily topics about the ele OPness. They asked anet to nerf eles every patch (nerfs were never enough) and in the end we got an unplayable class.

Ele hasn’t been playable in competitive PvP for many months now, and when it’s finally receiving some buffs the same users complain. One more time.

To this guys: there is a counter to diamond skin. Just deal 1-1.5k damage and the immunity is over. This trait, while passive, is good because it stops the mindless condi spam many classes are used to. I’m looking at you necros.

@op.Anet should definetly go with this and preferrably make it an adept trait.Necros stop qq i have a tip for you.Your pets do 5k damage in one autoattack.Diamond skin would be funny on warriors though.A 30 k hp war is still just 3k damage you need to do.What you need to hit an ele with the insane ammount of ………
1000 DAMAGE to get them at 90% ? Hard to do i know with eles insane inate armor and necros highly telegraphed and obvious weapon skills.

Just 1 q.If you can, t do 10% damage on an ele how exactly are you dealing with engineers?

mini.6018:

@op.Anet should definetly go with this and preferrably make it an adept trait.Necros stop qq i have a tip for you.Your pets do 5k damage in one autoattack.Diamond skin would be funny on warriors though.A 30 k hp war is still just 3k damage you need to do.What you need to hit an ele with the insane ammount of ………
1000 DAMAGE to get them at 90% ? Hard to do i know with eles insane inate armor and necros highly telegraphed and obvious weapon skills.

Just 1 q.If you can, t do 10% damage on an ele how exactly are you dealing with engineers?

The question is: Can you deal 10% damage to an ele without acccidentally killing him?

What’s this? Synergy in an elementalist traitline? Unthinkable!

On a more serious note, this is like the early bunker meta all over again. Many eles at the time were unable to deal with all the damage and built 0/x/x/30/30 just to be able to survive. It will be the same with condis and diamond skin, at least for me. I’ve had enough of having nearly every condition in the game easily applied to me by multiple classes. I’ll take this trait if Anet doesn’t take any hints from one of the condi discussion threads in these forums and do something about the spam.

Wintel.4873:

Holy knee-jerk reaction…clueless about Ele traits/builds much?

Diamond Skin is a 30-point Earth trait. EARTH. The condition damage tree. If you see an Ele with Diamond skin, they have already put themselves at a huge disadvantage against almost every meta build.

Currently there are NO decent builds involving 30 Earth because “condi ele” is something that barely exists. Necro and Engineer have superior condi application in every way. So you will still see most Ele’s going 30 Arcana + Air/Fire (burst) or Water (defensive).

What is wrong with people lol…

That is exactly what i was telling people when they introduced damage on boons trait on warriors but everybody has this ideea of 30/30/30/30/30 builds for all classes and they scream op op op op kitten(funny the screamers were mostly eles), even if in fact picking these traits actually means nerfing yourself.Just lol.I do hope however that they will qq as much about eles as they did about warriors.AGAIN and they will , the ammount of bad in players these days is “trough the roof”.

mini.6018:

@op.Anet should definetly go with this and preferrably make it an adept trait.Necros stop qq i have a tip for you.Your pets do 5k damage in one autoattack.Diamond skin would be funny on warriors though.A 30 k hp war is still just 3k damage you need to do.What you need to hit an ele with the insane ammount of ………
1000 DAMAGE to get them at 90% ? Hard to do i know with eles insane inate armor and necros highly telegraphed and obvious weapon skills.

Just 1 q.If you can, t do 10% damage on an ele how exactly are you dealing with engineers?

No, if you run a condition build you cant do 1k direct damage. It simply wont be possible. I cant kill an AR engi sitting there on 100 health an regen. Regen alone > my direct damage. And hybrid necro is horribly bad because scepter doesnt scale at all well with power stats outsies of scepter 3 which only does really when they have condis on them – which they wont.

So ye, you cant deal 10% damage. Rabid engis will be the same tbh.

And AR is not nearly as bad as this trait. At least with ar engis every build in the game has some chance of killing them but condi bombing them at 30% health. There will literally be no way a rabid build can even interract with such an ele. And tbh, same even for a carrion build on necro. They still wont be able to hurt the ele.

Like I said, the evidence is in this thread. A while back there was a thread about anet listening to the wrong players. It is time to see if that is truely still the case. You have experienced players lining up and saying this is a very very bad change to the game. And you have inexperienced players defending it for illogical reasons. This is such a simple thing for anet to see. I hope they dont kitten it up with this trait, which only effects pvp and not pve.

Lordrosicky.5813:

mini.6018:

@op.Anet should definetly go with this and preferrably make it an adept trait.Necros stop qq i have a tip for you.Your pets do 5k damage in one autoattack.Diamond skin would be funny on warriors though.A 30 k hp war is still just 3k damage you need to do.What you need to hit an ele with the insane ammount of ………
1000 DAMAGE to get them at 90% ? Hard to do i know with eles insane inate armor and necros highly telegraphed and obvious weapon skills.

Just 1 q.If you can, t do 10% damage on an ele how exactly are you dealing with engineers?

No, if you run a condition build you cant do 1k direct damage. It simply wont be possible. I cant kill an AR engi sitting there on 100 health an regen. Regen alone > my direct damage. And hybrid necro is horribly bad because scepter doesnt scale at all well with power stats outsies of scepter 3 which only does really when they have condis on them – which they wont.

So ye, you cant deal 10% damage. Rabid engis will be the same tbh.

And AR is not nearly as bad as this trait. At least with ar engis every build in the game has some chance of killing them but condi bombing them at 30% health. There will literally be no way a rabid build can even interract with such an ele. And tbh, same even for a carrion build on necro. They still wont be able to hurt the ele.

Like I said, the evidence is in this thread. A while back there was a thread about anet listening to the wrong players. It is time to see if that is truely still the case. You have experienced players lining up and saying this is a very very bad change to the game. And you have inexperienced players defending it for illogical reasons. This is such a simple thing for anet to see. I hope they dont kitten it up with this trait, which only effects pvp and not pve.

Sorry but a build that can’t deal 1k damage without condis is pure mindless spam and shouldn’t be playable in a serious game. Stop this nonsense thread.

mini.6018:

Wintel.4873:

Holy knee-jerk reaction…clueless about Ele traits/builds much?

Diamond Skin is a 30-point Earth trait. EARTH. The condition damage tree. If you see an Ele with Diamond skin, they have already put themselves at a huge disadvantage against almost every meta build.

Currently there are NO decent builds involving 30 Earth because “condi ele” is something that barely exists. Necro and Engineer have superior condi application in every way. So you will still see most Ele’s going 30 Arcana + Air/Fire (burst) or Water (defensive).

What is wrong with people lol…

That is exactly what i was telling people when they introduced damage on boons trait on warriors but everybody has this ideea of 30/30/30/30/30 builds for all classes and they scream op op op op kitten(funny the screamers were mostly eles), even if in fact picking these traits actually means nerfing yourself.Just lol.I do hope however that they will qq as much about eles as they did about warriors.AGAIN and they will , the ammount of bad in players these days is “trough the roof”.

What are you on about dude. Yeh I am so bad. I couldnt find you on the leaderboards for team q but solo q you are 514th with a 59% win % over around 100 games. So you dont team q and have 100 games at a low level of solo q. Honestly, if you are so inexperienced/bad then why even post in balance threads? You cant have any understanding of the game. I dont go on fractals threads and tell them that a fractal boss is op cos I dont have a clue about it.

Lordrosicky.5813:

mini.6018:

Wintel.4873:

Holy knee-jerk reaction…clueless about Ele traits/builds much?

Diamond Skin is a 30-point Earth trait. EARTH. The condition damage tree. If you see an Ele with Diamond skin, they have already put themselves at a huge disadvantage against almost every meta build.

Currently there are NO decent builds involving 30 Earth because “condi ele” is something that barely exists. Necro and Engineer have superior condi application in every way. So you will still see most Ele’s going 30 Arcana + Air/Fire (burst) or Water (defensive).

What is wrong with people lol…

That is exactly what i was telling people when they introduced damage on boons trait on warriors but everybody has this ideea of 30/30/30/30/30 builds for all classes and they scream op op op op kitten(funny the screamers were mostly eles), even if in fact picking these traits actually means nerfing yourself.Just lol.I do hope however that they will qq as much about eles as they did about warriors.AGAIN and they will , the ammount of bad in players these days is “trough the roof”.

What are you on about dude. Yeh I am so bad. I couldnt find you on the leaderboards for team q but solo q you are 514th with a 59% win % over around 100 games. So you dont team q and have 100 games at a low level of solo q. Honestly, if you are so inexperienced/bad then why even post in balance threads? You cant have any understanding of the game. I dont go on fractals threads and tell them that a fractal boss is op cos I dont have a clue about it.

LOL. Teamq leaderboard position doesn’t mean anything. If you play 2 weeks an op class you can be top 100 even if you are the worst.

Marcos.3690:

Lordrosicky.5813:

mini.6018:

@op.Anet should definetly go with this and preferrably make it an adept trait.Necros stop qq i have a tip for you.Your pets do 5k damage in one autoattack.Diamond skin would be funny on warriors though.A 30 k hp war is still just 3k damage you need to do.What you need to hit an ele with the insane ammount of ………
1000 DAMAGE to get them at 90% ? Hard to do i know with eles insane inate armor and necros highly telegraphed and obvious weapon skills.

Just 1 q.If you can, t do 10% damage on an ele how exactly are you dealing with engineers?

No, if you run a condition build you cant do 1k direct damage. It simply wont be possible. I cant kill an AR engi sitting there on 100 health an regen. Regen alone > my direct damage. And hybrid necro is horribly bad because scepter doesnt scale at all well with power stats outsies of scepter 3 which only does really when they have condis on them – which they wont.

So ye, you cant deal 10% damage. Rabid engis will be the same tbh.

And AR is not nearly as bad as this trait. At least with ar engis every build in the game has some chance of killing them but condi bombing them at 30% health. There will literally be no way a rabid build can even interract with such an ele. And tbh, same even for a carrion build on necro. They still wont be able to hurt the ele.

Like I said, the evidence is in this thread. A while back there was a thread about anet listening to the wrong players. It is time to see if that is truely still the case. You have experienced players lining up and saying this is a very very bad change to the game. And you have inexperienced players defending it for illogical reasons. This is such a simple thing for anet to see. I hope they dont kitten it up with this trait, which only effects pvp and not pve.

Sorry but a build that can’t deal 1k damage without condis is pure mindless spam and shouldn’t be playable in a serious game. Stop this nonsense thread.

Why is that the definition of mindless spam? That literally makes no sense whatsoever.

Im not saying that necro shouldnt be nerfed. It should be nerfed along with everything else. In fact atm it is probably 5th most powerful class in the game, as whilst it puts out big damage (in the right hands espicially) – it also actually dies and is really weak to the most powerful builds in the game.

A Necro with Rabid Amulet and 916 Power using a Scepter hits over 1000 direct damage during the second chain of Scepter auto-attack.

Average non-critical hits ~ 149 + 149 + 227.
Average critical hits ~ 273 + 273 + 454.

Average damage after 1 chain = 811
Average damage after two chains = 1585

You’ll be fine, but we know you’ll still whine.

Entitlement kids these days, playing the most mindless condition spam class in the game that has been buffed multiple times over the last year to be given 2 extra damage conditions, a buff to Weakness which significantly impacts any Power build they face both burst and bunker. Yet still they whine about how hard it is to play Necro.

The threads of this forum are hilarious really.

Conditions are fine! ~Signed Necro, Engineer, Spirit Ranger.
There’s too much condition removal! ~Signed Necro, Engineer, Spirit Ranger.
Diamond Skin will be OP! ~Signed Necro, Engineer, Spirit Ranger.
Berserker Stance is OP! ~Signed Necro, Engineer, Spirit Ranger.
Engineer Automated Response is OP! ~Signed Lordrosicky.5813 Necro.
Necro is hard to play and completely balanced with passive condi procs ~Signed Necro.
We aren’t in a condition meta! ~Signed Necro, Engineer, Spirit Ranger.

Ezrael.6859:

A Necro with Rabid Amulet and 916 Power using a Scepter hits over 1000 direct damage during the second chain of Scepter auto-attack.

Average non-critical hits ~ 149 + 149 + 227.
Average critical hits ~ 273 + 273 + 454.

Average damage after 1 chain = 811
Average damage after two chains = 1585

You’ll be fine, but we know you’ll still whine.

Entitlement kids these days, playing the most mindless condition spam class in the most that has been buffed multiple times over the last year to be given 2 extra damage conditions, a buff to Weakness which significantly impacts any Power build they face both burst and bunker. Yet still they whine about how hard it is to play Necro.

The threads of this forum are hilarious really.

Conditions are fine! ~Signed Necro, Engineer, Spirit Ranger.
There’s too much condition removal! ~Signed Necro, Engineer, Spirit Ranger.
Diamond Skin will be OP! ~Signed Necro, Engineer, Spirit Ranger.
Berserker Stance is OP! ~Signed Necro, Engineer, Spirit Ranger.
Engineer Automated Response is OP! ~Signed Lordrosicky.5813 Necro.
Necro is hard to play and completely balanced with passive condi procs ~Signed Necro.
We aren’t in a condition meta! ~Signed Necro, Engineer, Spirit Ranger.

On my Engi as “full condi build” my very first round of grenades already does at least 1k direct damage. Even Pistol auto-attack can do that.
As soon as the Ele hits 89% health it’s game over because they will be loaded with conditions…assuming they aren’t already getting owned by direct-damage. Thanks to investing 30 points into Earth, they are either lacking cleanse (no water), or damage (no air), or taken a huge hit to overall survivability/utility (no arcana). The cost will never be worth it.

Imagine if you had an amazingly powerful gun, but it only works after you shoot yourself in the foot with it. That’s what Diamond Skin is post-Dec10.

Wintel.4873:

Thanks to investing 30 points into Earth, they are either lacking cleanse (no water), or damage (no air), or taken a huge hit to overall survivability/utility (no arcana).

That is opportunity cost that should exist in every profession. The upcoming hammer nerf is an example of Anet striving for this. They still need to do a lot of damage nerfs and rebalancing across the board to achieve that goal.

There have been posts made in the past about the old warrior being the point of balance for all classes. Then there was one made about the current ele. Instead, what we got was buff, buff, and then buff some more with a hint of nerf. Except eles.

Adastra.9821:

Wintel.4873:

Thanks to investing 30 points into Earth, they are either lacking cleanse (no water), or damage (no air), or taken a huge hit to overall survivability/utility (no arcana).

That is opportunity cost that should exist in every profession. The upcoming hammer nerf is an example of Anet striving for this. They still need to do a lot of damage nerfs and rebalancing across the board to achieve that goal.

There have been posts made in the past about the old warrior being the point of balance for all classes. Then there was one made about the current ele. Instead, what we got was buff, buff, and then buff some more with a hint of nerf. Except eles.

Hammer nerfs wont achieve what anet want. Anet are about 2 months behind the times tbh. Even if hambow wasnt viable warriors wud still be insanely op due to signet. There is a mace/sword and longbow carrion build which is (imo) better than hambow build anyway. It is so kittening broken, especially on a point. They wont nerf it because they dont know about it

You made a massive whine thread all about how you believe you will never be able to inflict 1000 direct damage as a Necro on an Elementalist.

And you ask us if we know how to PvP?

You’re a childish entitlement whiner that wants his profession and pure condition spec to have no counter at all in the game, you want an i-win button. Are you 13 years old?

Let us suggest that you need to grow a pair and learn to play.

Ezrael.6859:

You made a massive whine thread all about how you believe you will never be able to inflict 1000 direct damage as a Necro on an Elementalist.

And you ask us if we know how to PvP?

You’re a childish entitlement whiner that wants his profession and pure condition spec to have no counter at all in the game, you want an i-win button. Are you 13 years old?

Let us suggest that you need to grow a pair and learn to play.

Actually that isn’t what I want. I just think passive no skill immunity traits which decide combat IRRESPECTIVE of player skill is bad for the game. I mean why even bother playing the game when the results are predetermined by passive traits

The results are only pre-determined when you pigeonhole yourself into a pure condition build (conditions being the mechanic that is based most heavily upon passive stats and procs).

A Condi Necro has ways to do direct damage and push past this trait if it comes into the game. You need to adapt.

But you don’t want to do thinking, you want your spammy condi stacking build to be king. Where you can overpower a player with conditions stacks far more than they could possibly dodge, avoid and remove them.

Your threads are all about how there’s too much condi removal and too many anti-condi traits and passives.

But look at condition mechanics, they are more passive than anything.

Conditions build up in small stacks, there are no key long cooldown high damage skills with clear animations to dodge – unlike Power builds with obvious high damage skills.
Conditions need just 1-2 stats for effective damage, unlike a Power build that needs 3.
Conditions are damage over time, you spam your ranged skills then dodge combat while your damage ticks for you.
Your damage is ranged, positioning during combat barely factors for you in comparison to what a melee payer must do, Scepter auto has 0 travel time.
Conditions are unaffected by Toughness and Armour.
Conditions are unaffected by Protection.
Conditions are unaffected by Weakness.

There are far less options for players looking to avoid the damage and deal with conditions than to deal with direct damage.

The mechanics of this game completely favour you and your spammy ranged auto proc condition overload play style, yet you whine and complain and want more.
Even at the top of the meta, you still want life made easier for you and nerfs made to the rest.

It’s pathetic.

Power necro is 100x more scarey than condition specced anyway, dem 6k piercing lifeblasts.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Actually that isn’t what I want. I just think passive no skill immunity traits which decide combat IRRESPECTIVE of player skill is bad for the game. I mean why even bother playing the game when the results are predetermined by passive traits

Diamond Skin is not a passive trait. At least, not in the way you think it is.

An elementalist must build its playstyle around it, as the trait demands a lot of dodging and healing in order to be maintained.

A “passive trait” in the negative sense of the word, is any trait that mindlessly makes you stronger without you even trying. Something like Dhuumfire, for example, which can proc at any time, without warning nor without any skill involved. In contrast, Diamond Skin requires a lot of skill to make the most use of it, and can be easily counterplayed. And that’s because it is tied to HP, which is a very dynamic and interactive value.

You could say that traits like Elemental Attunement are passive too (automatic boon procs on attunement swap!) but they require a lot of skill to be used at their fullest, which is to support the party at the right time, or to proc the protection right before a burst, etc. An average player can sometimes even forget about its existence in the middle of a very pressuring fight, nor swap effectively enough to have the right boon at the right time. It’s a very complex playstyle.

I expect DS to be an interesting trait to play with, and to play against.

How 2 counter diamond skin:

Deal a little bit of direct damage to ele first.

Ta-daaa!!!

Another example that the development / balance-team still didn’t realize we don’t want more passive play. There were hundreds of threads about reducing passive-play and A-Net still delivers us with this epic trait.
What a poor development Team. The GW1 Team built up everything and you ruin everything. What a waste . . .

How about Diamond Skin would activate for 2 seconds whenever you switched to Earth, and gave 75-90% condition reduction? It provides active play and doesn’t act as a hard counter to condition builds.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Another example that the development / balance-team still didn’t realize we don’t want more passive play. There were hundreds of threads about reducing passive-play and A-Net still delivers us with this epic trait.
What a poor development Team. The GW1 Team built up everything and you ruin everything. What a waste . . .

Quite the contrary, I’d say Diamond Skin is the proof that Anet is learning with their mistakes.

All traits in GW2 are passive, one way or another. That’s just what traits are. You can’t remove everything that is passive in this game without removing the entire trait system.

Ultimately, it’s all about either those passive effects demand skill, create unique playstyles and can be counter-played (good), or if they’re just mindless additions to already existing builds (bad). And Diamond Skin seems to be in the former category. It demands to have a skillful playstyle build around it, because it’s very easy to counter-play it.

Feel free to disagree.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Another example that the development / balance-team still didn’t realize we don’t want more passive play. There were hundreds of threads about reducing passive-play and A-Net still delivers us with this epic trait.
What a poor development Team. The GW1 Team built up everything and you ruin everything. What a waste . . .

Quite the contrary, I’d say Diamond Skin is the proof that Anet is learning with their mistakes.

All traits in GW2 are passive, one way or another. That’s just what traits are. You can’t remove everything that is passive in this game without removing the entire trait system.

Ultimately, it’s all about either those passive effects demand skill, create unique playstyles and can be counter-played (good), or if they’re just mindless additions to already existing builds (bad). And Diamond Skin seems to be in the former category. It demands to have a skillful playstyle build around it, because it’s very easy to counter-play it.

Feel free to disagree.

I disagree. Sure all traits are kinda passive. However some of them require awareness and some are just there forever. You don’t need to think about them actively. To completely negate a whole source of damage is a pretty bad and lazy design. Read the example of Oblivion, in my eyes this trait would be 10 times better than what A-Net designs.

Oblivion.8307:

How about Diamond Skin would activate for 2 seconds whenever you switched to Earth, and gave 75-90% condition reduction? It provides active play and doesn’t act as a hard counter to condition builds.

I like the idea, but I have two problems with it.

First, in theory, I believe your version would be much stronger than Anet’s proposal. This is because it could be used on-demand, every 10 seconds, and the elementalist wouldn’t have to worry about their health. That could make necro’s marks almost useless every 10 seconds, or prevent massive condition spam every 10 seconds. and it raises the question: does swapping to earth involve more active play than keeping the health high? It certainly does if no one is targetting you, but an elementalist can’t passively keep their health high, can they?

Second, it’s more of a design issue. I like on-swap traits like the one you suggested, but there should exist a limit to how many are available at a given time. Else, a 30 earth, 20 arcana elementalist would be able to gain 6-7 seconds of aoe protection, 2+ seconds of aoe stability and 2 seconds of massive condition duration decrease by just pressing a single button to swap to earth. That’s, like, a single button for massive protection-versus-everything every 11 seconds or less.

I’d like to see more interesting defensive on swap traits, but i’d say they should be spread through other traitlines. Earth already has Rock Solid, arcana has Elemental Attunement, water has Cleansing Wave, air has (the rather underwhelming) One with Air. Personally, I would only add one more to fire and be done with it, to prevent massive stacking.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Oblivion.8307:

How about Diamond Skin would activate for 2 seconds whenever you switched to Earth, and gave 75-90% condition reduction? It provides active play and doesn’t act as a hard counter to condition builds.

I like the idea, but I have two problems with it.

First, in theory, I believe your version would be much stronger than Anet’s proposal. This is because it could be used on-demand, every 10 seconds, and the elementalist wouldn’t have to worry about their health. That could make necro’s marks almost useless every 10 seconds, or prevent massive condition spam every 10 seconds. and it raises the question: does swapping to earth involve more active play than keeping the health high? It certainly does if no one is targetting you, but an elementalist can’t passively keep their health high, can they?

Second, it’s more of a design issue. I like on-swap traits like the one you suggested, but there should exist a limit to how many are available at a given time. Else, a 30 earth, 20 arcana elementalist would be able to gain 6-7 seconds of aoe protection, 2+ seconds of aoe stability and 2 seconds of massive condition duration decrease by just pressing a single button to swap to earth. That’s, like, a single button for massive protection-versus-everything every 11 seconds or less.

I’d like to see more interesting defensive on swap traits, but i’d say they should be spread through other traitlines. Earth already has Rock Solid, arcana has Elemental Attunement, water has Cleansing Wave, air has (the rather underwhelming) One with Air. Personally, I would only add one more to fire and be done with it, to prevent massive stacking.

It was a quick example to show of the core-idea of what players mean and what A-Net could do.

You, I and a lot of people here can play, make mistakes and correct those – get better and better. But think about people who can barely dodge, they get crushed
No, I’m not protecting them, and I can tell you that ANet is listening to the wrong players aka those who can’t practice and get better

Fighting games. Check KOF, Street Fighter, Skullgirls, KI. I’ve played those a lot, can’t say I’m an awesome fighter, but I tryed
I read some forums and a lot of people complain about not being able to even attack, the enemy just close the gap and starts a infinite combo
I’ve also watched videos of great players and that’s true: get hit once and you probably just lost the round

But the companies that produce fighting games doesn’t make X or Y more or less strong because people complain. They study things first. I mean, why would you listen to a new player complaining about balance? Makes no sense

GW2 “casual” (casual doesn’t mean bad, but I can’t come up with another word) community is really big, and if they can’t have fun not playing well, they will just stop playing. “Losing 1 good player is better than 100 bad ones”

However some of them require awareness and some are just there forever. You don’t need to think about them actively. To completely negate a whole source of damage is a pretty bad and lazy design.

But DS won’t be there “forever”, an elementalist can’t keep its health that high passively, and a single tick of damage can simply disable the entire trait down. An opponent will have so many opportunity to counter-play that trait, that an elementalist player will either have to try hard to take advantage of DS, or DS will simply not work. An elementalist will need to think about it actively.

DiogoSilva.7089:

However some of them require awareness and some are just there forever. You don’t need to think about them actively. To completely negate a whole source of damage is a pretty bad and lazy design.

But DS won’t be there “forever”, an elementalist can’t keep its health that high passively, and a single tick of damage can simply disable the entire trait down. An opponent will have so many opportunity to counter-play that trait, that an elementalist player will either have to try hard to take advantage of DS, or DS will simply not work. An elementalist will need to think about it actively.

As you clearly don’t get the idea what players complaing about in this thread, there is no reason for me to discuss this any further with you. Have a nice day.

This isn’t the thread to be discussing suggestions for Diamond Skin because it all ties in with the greater issue of bringing Ele’s up to par with other classes.

There are far bigger concerns with Dec10 Ele changes than DS.

DiogoSilva.7089:

However some of them require awareness and some are just there forever. You don’t need to think about them actively. To completely negate a whole source of damage is a pretty bad and lazy design.

But DS won’t be there “forever”, an elementalist can’t keep its health that high passively, and a single tick of damage can simply disable the entire trait down. An opponent will have so many opportunity to counter-play that trait, that an elementalist player will either have to try hard to take advantage of DS, or DS will simply not work. An elementalist will need to think about it actively.

Right right. Our definition of “Passive” seems a little strange. Getting something automatically when doing X is active, but getting something automatically under condition Y is passive?

IMO, a better definition of passive/low skill floor abilities would be warrior stances. They’re very 1:1, straightfoward stuff. If you’re getting conditions on you, press zerker stance (or longbow F1 or signet of rage). If you’re getting cc’d, press balanced stance. Sure, you have to “press a button” to get the effect, but that doesn’t necessarily make it easier or harder to use than a trait like DS.

i will accept this change! take it away! but! necros cant have dhumfire anymore

Caffynated.5713:

I haven’t talked with one competent ele who thinks this trait is anything but broken.

The sad thing is, the devs seem to love it and bad players even think 90% is weak or even worthless.

Please rethink this trait.

I hope nobody takes offense to this, but statistically speaking, it is likely that most devs are, in fact, bad players. And this can be reflected in many of the previous balance changes they’ve implemented and their general inability to predict the effects of their changes on the high level competitive meta, as well as their tendency to favor passive, easy to play builds over those with a high skill ceiling.

Its about time they swallowed their pride and started getting input from high level competitive teams on balance changes by letting them test them out in preview servers before releasing them into the wild.

Before this game strays too far from what a competitive game should play like.

From one of my previous posts:

Kaon.7192:

I really don’t think ANet’s internal testers can play at the same level as top-tier competitive teams do in the external meta.

Traditionally, testers are hired based on their professional skills in terms of testing experience, efficiency, and attention to detail, and not solely on their GW2 gameplay ability. Statistically speaking, the number of people who possess both the necessary professional skills as well as the ability to play GW2 at a high level will be relatively few. And to be honest it’s not reasonable to replace testers simply because they’re not top tier players when they can perform their real work flawlessly.

This gap in skill and experience level between internal and external teams can be evident from the last few patches where several changes have had detrimental effects to the competitive meta that ANet was not able to foresee. The fact that passive builds like Healing Signet Warrior, Spirit Ranger, etc have been favored in balance changes over builds with a high skill ceiling is likely also a direct effect of this gap. This gap will only widen, and its effect amplified, as time goes on, because the large majority of competitve players have much more time to play and master the game than internal testers do.

Bottom line is: ANet needs to start consulting top competitive teams and players when making balance changes, and give them access to playable preview builds to get their feedback before release. This is standard practice in game development for ESport worthy games, and it’s about time ANet started as well.

Well one of the devs did claim they could do amazing things as Staff Ele (which loses 1v1 to absolutely everything) but at what level and against what kind of players, one can only guess.

Kaon.7192:

Caffynated.5713:

I haven’t talked with one competent ele who thinks this trait is anything but broken.

The sad thing is, the devs seem to love it and bad players even think 90% is weak or even worthless.

Please rethink this trait.

I hope nobody takes offense to this, but statistically speaking, it is likely that most devs are, in fact, bad players. And this can be reflected in many of the previous balance changes they’ve implemented and their general inability to predict the effects of their changes on the high level competitive meta, as well as their tendency to favor passive, easy to play builds over those with a high skill ceiling.

Its about time they swallowed their pride and started getting input from high level competitive teams on balance changes by letting them test them out in preview servers before releasing them into the wild.

Before this game strays too far from what a competitive game should play like.

From one of my previous posts:

Kaon.7192:

I really don’t think ANet’s internal testers can play at the same level as top-tier competitive teams do in the external meta.

Traditionally, testers are hired based on their professional skills in terms of testing experience, efficiency, and attention to detail, and not solely on their GW2 gameplay ability. Statistically speaking, the number of people who possess both the necessary professional skills as well as the ability to play GW2 at a high level will be relatively few. And to be honest it’s not reasonable to replace testers simply because they’re not top tier players when they can perform their real work flawlessly.

This gap in skill and experience level between internal and external teams can be evident from the last few patches where several changes have had detrimental effects to the competitive meta that ANet was not able to foresee. The fact that passive builds like Healing Signet Warrior, Spirit Ranger, etc have been favored in balance changes over builds with a high skill ceiling is likely also a direct effect of this gap. This gap will only widen, and its effect amplified, as time goes on, because the large majority of competitve players have much more time to play and master the game than internal testers do.

Bottom line is: ANet needs to start consulting top competitive teams and players when making balance changes, and give them access to playable preview builds to get their feedback before release. This is standard practice in game development for ESport worthy games, and it’s about time ANet started as well.

Powerr and Grouch are indeed good players.

Dunno about other devs.

Fact is this trait sucks balls and should be never implemented.

They should remove AR too.

They’re buffing bunkers to a ridicolous degree, nerfing damage increasing defenses, this game has become so slow and boring, based on condi-spam and bunkering.

as things stand now, 10th december patch will do nothing if not aggravating our balance issues.

Mrbig.8019:

Powerr are indeed good players.

From the last few comments I’ve heard from him, and from what I’ve heard of other players, yeah not really. No offense to Powerr, but they don’t seem to be on page with any other Necromancer. And that’s a problem I seem to get from at least a few of the profession communities – ANet as a whole doesn’t seem to understand where we’re coming from. On certain issues they are really on point, on others they say something that just makes you think “are we talking about the same game?”.

There is just a disconnect from the community, and while the recent from Peters (and whoever else helped out there as well) definitely was a big step forward, it’d be nice if that was more common than once a year. It’d help solve issues like this, where it seems like even the people who want eles buffed don’t seem to care much about the trait itself, only that it’ll be a buff to eles (who need it).

Ezrael.6859:

You made a massive whine thread all about how you believe you will never be able to inflict 1000 direct damage as a Necro on an Elementalist.

And you ask us if we know how to PvP?

You’re a childish entitlement whiner that wants his profession and pure condition spec to have no counter at all in the game, you want an i-win button. Are you 13 years old?

Let us suggest that you need to grow a pair and learn to play.

I agree, they are already complaing about nothing and it isn’t even out yet. If you can’t get an ele below 90% please uninstall. Using the “it takes no skill” arguement against DS is dumb since it also takes zero skill to spam conditions on a Necro, maybe ANET should remove that class then?

Bhawb.7408:

Mrbig.8019:

Powerr are indeed good players.

From the last few comments I’ve heard from him, and from what I’ve heard of other players, yeah not really. No offense to Powerr, but they don’t seem to be on page with any other Necromancer. And that’s a problem I seem to get from at least a few of the profession communities – ANet as a whole doesn’t seem to understand where we’re coming from. On certain issues they are really on point, on others they say something that just makes you think “are we talking about the same game?”.

There is just a disconnect from the community, and while the recent from Peters (and whoever else helped out there as well) definitely was a big step forward, it’d be nice if that was more common than once a year. It’d help solve issues like this, where it seems like even the people who want eles buffed don’t seem to care much about the trait itself, only that it’ll be a buff to eles (who need it).

When was the last time you played with/against Powerr? You might want not want to make that judgment based on the “last few comments” you’ve heard about him.

I’ll again reiterate that this change is exactly in line with what the community has been asking for over the last 4-5 months. Big change, forces build/playstyle changes, hurts condition builds. That sounds pretty much like exactly what people have been asking for. I’m not saying I think it’s a great trait idea, but charging that the devs are “disconnected from the community” seems pretty odd to me. The evidence seems to point to the devs being connected to the community nearly to a fault.

clint.5681:

Ezrael.6859:

You made a massive whine thread all about how you believe you will never be able to inflict 1000 direct damage as a Necro on an Elementalist.

And you ask us if we know how to PvP?

You’re a childish entitlement whiner that wants his profession and pure condition spec to have no counter at all in the game, you want an i-win button. Are you 13 years old?

Let us suggest that you need to grow a pair and learn to play.

I agree, they are already complaing about nothing and it isn’t even out yet. If you can’t get an ele below 90% please uninstall. Using the “it takes no skill” arguement against DS is dumb since it also takes zero skill to spam conditions on a Necro, maybe ANET should remove that class then?

It gets boring aruging the point in these threads because the discussion tends to go downhill very quickly.

But here is the difference. A necro CAN beat a warrior. A mesmer CAN beat a s/d thief. An ele CAN beat a necro. I am not saying it is a fair fight in any of these cases. BUT, given a high enough skill gap, each of these things CAN happen. A condition build CAN beat a class with mass condition removal. Again, it isnt a fair fight. I COULD beat cantrips eles on my necro back in early 2013.

This change is bad because it means a condition build (rabid necro) simply will lose to an ele who will always have near 100% health. There is no “can” here. You will lose like you lose to buffed “invulnerable” lord in WvW. You will lose irrespective of the skill gap. It really is that simple. And THAT is the difference. And THAT is what all the people in this thread who say “lol condi spamer wants it nerfed lolz!1!!!” are missing. And it is also what the anet devs are missing.

It is fine to disagree. But not to actually understand the argument is frustrating.

I understand the argument but that argument would only be true if those necros had 0 power, which isnt the case. Their attacks still deal physical damage, Eles are still squishy and have a low HP pool meaning it wont take much to get and keep them under 90%.

But if you think its an unwinnable battle then simply have your teammate fight them instead using strategy and communication.

NevirSayDie.6235:

When was the last time you played with/against Powerr? You might want not want to make that judgment based on the “last few comments” you’ve heard about him.

I’ll again reiterate that this change is exactly in line with what the community has been asking for over the last 4-5 months. Big change, forces build/playstyle changes, hurts condition builds. That sounds pretty much like exactly what people have been asking for. I’m not saying I think it’s a great trait idea, but charging that the devs are “disconnected from the community” seems pretty odd to me. The evidence seems to point to the devs being connected to the community nearly to a fault.

I don’t play high tier PvP (except on the rare occasion that I play with a team of better players), so I haven’t played against him in a very long time. But I do know a lot of high tier PvPers who do, and I have never heard someone say that he’s a great player.

Realize that this is the person who told us that Putrid mark was intended to go on full CD when interrupted (no skill in the game, to my knowledge, goes on full CD when interrupted unless it takes some immediate effect while casting) because its “one of the strongest skills in the game”, four months after a stealth nerf that destroyed half its functionality – a change that was never mentioned to Necromancers.

The devs have also recently said (I’ll stick to Necros because I don’t know the other classes well) that Blood Magic necromancers are starting to feel good; an opinion not shared by anyone I have ever talked to in the Necro community. It is universally accepted that the only reason people go into Blood Magic is for MMs, or people who really love life siphoning, even though they all agree it is far too weak, and they do it anyway.

There are some times when they are totally on point, like I’ve said (for better or worse), but there are times they say things that aren’t just blatantly ignorant, but so out of touch with everyone else that you cannot possibly think that they even attempt to keep in touch with that group.

Ok so alot if not all of you have been exagerating to the point of hurting this thread’s integrity. Since your all too lazy I’ll do it for you. (and to once and for all shut a few people up)

Basic engi build: 30/0/0/30/10 rabid amulet.
Grenades ( our hardest hitting skill, as pistol 1 is equal to 1 grenade not 3…)

Medium armor golem 270 per with 430 on critical. Keep in mind rabid is 35 crit chance.
IF all 3 grenades hit thats 900~ damage. WITH shrapnel grenade. The 5s cd harder hitting skill.

With normal spammable auto attack grenades its 150 normal hit 250 on crit. Thats 550~ per.

Now assume /guesstimate eles have 16-20k hp. 1.8k damage and you say ok thats only 2 nade hits or 1 full grenade barrage. Heres the issue:

Regen boon
regen from water attune
aoe team healing
water attune heal skills
ether renewal
grenades arent auto hits
Necros are far worse off than engis or power damage. (inb4 elite minion its easy to kill/kite)
dodges/invulns/blocks/kiting/blinds. (last I checked s/f or s/d burst ele can fight from a distance making greandes not reliable)
not standing still
reflect/block projectiles
MY FAVORITE THE HEAL ON SKILL USE SIGNET> passively healing the ele far more than my nades could possibly hurt them for.
Now cool even if you want to argue all day that this isn’t strong enough or isn’t an issue…
COUNTERS are bad gameplay. Its kittened, shouldn’t exist. Yet they are adding MORE.

Necro down state/engis defensives (fear/blind) are now completely countered by a full hp ele.
WITH 0 SKILL REQUIRMENT.

Now if they were to use diamon skill for reduced condition duration/ or minus -1 or 2 ticks off every condition, would be better as it doesnt counter anything.

Discuss/stop defending this stupid idea for a trait.

ps (edit):

This is with grenades and 30 points into power line. With shaman ammy/not 30 into power line hitting this damage would straight up b impossible.

Want to know why build diversity is so limited? Defending traits like this is why. You are hurting the game by defending this type of trait. Forcing engis/necros to take SPECIFIC skills/utilities to counter something else…

Lets fix the counters by bringing more counters. What a way to cause issues in a game.

Powerr is the reason I made a cc warrior build.

Diamond Skin change sounds in line with everything else in game. What you should be asking is for anet to add powerful passive skills to every class.

honestly its not that serious, you’ll only need to deal around 2k damage (for the average health pool) to drop them below 90%, thats what? a couple of hits?

all condition skills deal damage so all this trait really boils down to is “the first couple of condition skills used against you fail”

JinDaVikk.7291:

Ok so alot if not all of you have been exagerating to the point of hurting this thread’s integrity. Since your all too lazy I’ll do it for you. (and to once and for all shut a few people up)

Basic engi build: 30/0/0/30/10 rabid amulet.
Grenades ( our hardest hitting skill, as pistol 1 is equal to 1 grenade not 3…)

Medium armor golem 270 per with 430 on critical. Keep in mind rabid is 35 crit chance.
IF all 3 grenades hit thats 900~ damage. WITH shrapnel grenade. The 5s cd harder hitting skill.

With normal spammable auto attack grenades its 150 normal hit 250 on crit. Thats 550~ per.

Now assume /guesstimate eles have 16-20k hp. 1.8k damage and you say ok thats only 2 nade hits or 1 full grenade barrage. Heres the issue:

Regen boon
regen from water attune
aoe team healing
water attune heal skills
ether renewal
grenades arent auto hits
Necros are far worse off than engis or power damage. (inb4 elite minion its easy to kill/kite)
dodges/invulns/blocks/kiting/blinds. (last I checked s/f or s/d burst ele can fight from a distance making greandes not reliable)
not standing still
reflect/block projectiles
MY FAVORITE THE HEAL ON SKILL USE SIGNET> passively healing the ele far more than my nades could possibly hurt them for.
Now cool even if you want to argue all day that this isn’t strong enough or isn’t an issue…
COUNTERS are bad gameplay. Its kittened, shouldn’t exist. Yet they are adding MORE.

Necro down state/engis defensives (fear/blind) are now completely countered by a full hp ele.
WITH 0 SKILL REQUIRMENT.

Now if they were to use diamon skill for reduced condition duration/ or minus -1 or 2 ticks off every condition, would be better as it doesnt counter anything.

Discuss/stop defending this stupid idea for a trait.

ps (edit):

This is with grenades and 30 points into power line. With shaman ammy/not 30 into power line hitting this damage would straight up b impossible.

Want to know why build diversity is so limited? Defending traits like this is why. You are hurting the game by defending this type of trait. Forcing engis/necros to take SPECIFIC skills/utilities to counter something else…

Lets fix the counters by bringing more counters. What a way to cause issues in a game.

solution: carrion or maybe rampagers!

of course u loose your toughness and then u need more skill to survive. what is imho healthy to this game..

i think diamond skin is a bad trait but the pure existence of it will shift ppl away from rabid/ settler condition bunker meta what is imho good. so u has 2 choices
1. call for help if u are a condition bunker
2. develop a new build more offensive and not only reliant on conditions.

Lordrosicky.5813:

mini.6018:

Wintel.4873:

Holy knee-jerk reaction…clueless about Ele traits/builds much?

Diamond Skin is a 30-point Earth trait. EARTH. The condition damage tree. If you see an Ele with Diamond skin, they have already put themselves at a huge disadvantage against almost every meta build.

Currently there are NO decent builds involving 30 Earth because “condi ele” is something that barely exists. Necro and Engineer have superior condi application in every way. So you will still see most Ele’s going 30 Arcana + Air/Fire (burst) or Water (defensive).

What is wrong with people lol…

That is exactly what i was telling people when they introduced damage on boons trait on warriors but everybody has this ideea of 30/30/30/30/30 builds for all classes and they scream op op op op kitten(funny the screamers were mostly eles), even if in fact picking these traits actually means nerfing yourself.Just lol.I do hope however that they will qq as much about eles as they did about warriors.AGAIN and they will , the ammount of bad in players these days is “trough the roof”.

What are you on about dude. Yeh I am so bad. I couldnt find you on the leaderboards for team q but solo q you are 514th with a 59% win % over around 100 games. So you dont team q and have 100 games at a low level of solo q. Honestly, if you are so inexperienced/bad then why even post in balance threads? You cant have any understanding of the game. I dont go on fractals threads and tell them that a fractal boss is op cos I dont have a clue about it.

I loled .With an extra rofl.Not sure if serious whining about “can’t do 1k damage Anet omg” or “i’m a pro cuz i levderbvoards and stuff and you don’t”.