Guild Wars 2

Taym.8326:

There is a lot of chest thumping in this thread which is highly unnecessary, those who play the game and still somewhat shine are just leftovers. There is no pride to take in that, just calm down and try to enjoy the game for what you can get out of it. If your enjoyment stems from how high your ranking is on the NA ladder then you should probably just stop right now because you are embarrassing yourself.

Now to topic, I don’t agree with many of the original ratings that were given in the thread. However if I analyze it in an off-node 1v1 situation more of them start to make sense however Thief, Mesmer and Guardian are still far too low in their comparative ratings. I think independent ratings should be given for each role such as off-node, de-cap, team fight, survivability, and support(stomp/rez/buffs). I just think that there is much that your assessments leave out, I do believe warrior is in a bad place at the moment but definitely not a 3/10.

On a sidenote, why the fascination with entangling roots. Every class has MANY ways to get out of this ability, if it hits in the first place any teleport, condition removal, block, invuln or dodge will instantly negate its effect. It is one of the easiest countered elites in the game and as such you will have to wait until the entire group wastes their abilities to have it work to its full effect, however this will never happen so you camp one target instead bypassing the entire aoe effect. The only side-bonus is this ability can deal with any summoned pets rather well only because the AI is so bad or they would get themselves out

my facination with entangle is i belieave its the strongest 1v1 elite and strongest teamfight elite so if i compare that to the others its the best elite. you have to blow break stuns to get out of it but usually take dmg by then and thats hoping u have a break stun for it.

now i do give independent scores for each of the major 3 things. lets just say for example 2.5 for each of the 3 posible points then .75 for 1v1 and .75 for team fight then .5 for mobility and .5 for misc. (thats not my exact numbers i used but similar) then i take those numbers and compare each class in them the best class gets a 2.5 then i give less and less for each class that does it worse. so basically its a grading curve.

so after all the independent scores are given thats what leads to the main score.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

The Class-Ratings are well made. Comes really near to my opinion. Well a 3 for warrior is a bit hard, though he has Battle-Standard, is the best class against downed ppl (100b, whirlwind = nearly impossible to get a person up) and brings generally some great dmg input to teamfights. The things is timing and know when to retreat. Also a warrior can’t be left allone, but as roam support it can work out pretty good.

Ranger 9/10 in the aspect of a 1v1 or 2v2 he’s pretty effective, also roots are destroying. If it comes to bigger teamfights like 4v4 mid-fights then he looses against other classes its value due to nearly no dmg and bleeding remove through different classes (e.g. guardian; ele). Prolly would set him to an 8/10.

guza.6170:

Oh my another thread turns from balance discussion into ego wars, too bad.

Well, what balance discussion are we going to have when no one’s left playing the game? The tpvp community is, what, 10 players right now?

I think the final straw was when I’m reading kitten on reddit, and there are some PvE speedrun kitten going “Oh, the amount of effort devs put into spvp compared to their playerbase is way too much”. Well, yeah, if you put in next to no work and everyone leaves then the piddly amount of work you did goes to waste.

Davinci thinks he’s hot kitten now that everyone’s left and he’s defaulted onto a team with good players? Why not! Live it up. Not like anyone’s going to call him on being carried while team hopping, and still getting stomped 500-100 by us for months because all those players have left, too!

Might as well grab some of that fading glory so you have a story to tell your kids later.

As for the balance discussion, it might be significantly different if thieves, warriors and mesmers still had a playerbase. Warriors require an enabling comp and do best on legacy and temple, neither of which have been in rotation for a while. Thieves all have a signature style of play that varies significantly in effectiveness between maps, but we’re being balanced according to how people do in hotjoins according to the last SotG, so who cares about that? Mesmers, well, there’s no notable mesmer playing anymore besides Sataar, as half of them quit after rangers started holding back points. So basically mesmer balance is basically just Sataar’s viability.

Maybe kitten’s different on EU, but all of the EU streams I’ve watched felt like they were 2 months behind in meta shifts compared to NA.

Binding roots is a mediocre teamfight ability, but it shines because of how unviable thieves and warriors currently are. Very few rangers are good with res pet positioning and timing, and binding roots is super easy to use in comparison, so you’ll see it used pretty commonly. Roots also combos very well with timewarp, and since Sataar plays a mesmer, he sees its effectiveness from a team that’s reliant on warp to create advantages, hence why I think he overvalues it. Also, running illusion of life makes having res pet somewhat redundant, so alternatives seem less worthwhile. In a comp without a mesmer, or against a warrior/thief, roots underperforms.

Edit: In retrospect, this post looks pretty mean. Davinci’s been a pretty cool dude in game and on voip. I’m not going to delete it, but maybe I’ve been a bit too harsh, given how flammable people are online.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Oh good, quality drama before bed!

Davinci, I’ll have you recall that the last time we played, I ran a clinic on your team with a pug, carrying mine to a solid 500-1X0 victory and then your half your group quit GW and migrated over to playing smite. Sataar was in the game. Hman was as well. I neutered both of them, and mace skull cracked you three times for three downs leading to three won midfights.

Ah hee hee hee. Too bad it wasn’t recorded. I’da highlight reeled half my plays that game.
——-

Okay, okay. Enough bravado. Back to the topic:

So to go back to the game above. Yes, its possible to dictate the flow of a match as a thief. I played a nearly perfect game in terms of timing, positioning and skill use, but it still felt like, as a thief, I was only capitalizing on the mistakes that others had made wrt to their approach to me, because despite setting the pace, I knew exactly what could be done to flip the tables. In order to counter that counter, I need a team set up to make my class work, which is absurd.

While I think thief is a solid 5/10, that doesn’t mean they can’t be played, it just means they need to get a bit more creative with their play. If my positioning is even a bit off, I’m done. If I misspend any initiative that I need to escape, I die. This isn’t really an issue, but the pay-off for success isn’t that high relative to the risk.

Team comps can cover up the issues with a weaker class,. War + Ele, for instance. Thief requires reliable cc for peeling and spike setups. Mesmers a safe midline and a few allies who can capitalize on timewarp (non-lich necro, for instance? bad at timewarps T_T).

I think that the effectiveness of classes was never really measured in a vaccuum, but most exploitative comps haven’t exploited synergies. They’ve just taken multiple copies of the class with the best matchups and set them loose around the map to force rotations and gain map control.

Will a change in balancing philosophy to focus on issues that class synergies create solve the problems in GW2? Maybe, but only in the future where those synergies are the driving force behind team composition. Because matches are so atomized outside of the big mid team-fight, its impossible to rely on synergies to make an individual’s build work.

Accordingly, if the only element that everyone needs to work together for is a team fight mid, then it explains why all of Sataar’s criteria point towards the ability to bomb the kitten out of a point with aoe, or conversely survive that assault (sidepoint shenanigans are an issue because of them forcing people to rotate off the clusterkitten mid). Even spirit and temple’s mechanics turn into pseudo points (with the exception of the orb run itself, which again, is dominated by eles), so the same set of criteria reproduce themselves.

Re: Jax’s post

I think a lot of what was said there is correct. Lots of people just toss the classes they play together with a group of people they play with, and run with whatever. Many builds and setups aren’t really selected in order to have cross-class synergy (see above for why I think that is)

I wouldn’t argue that mesmers are better than necros. Mesmers might have a better trick in offensive portals and timewar kitten olid but overall their damage on point is predictable to dodge or blind and difficult to set up. Necros provide substantial damage in aoe + cc. Signet res is also more stronger than illusion of life if its precasted or stability goes up for some insurance.

Re: Taym.

Binding roots kittens on a few classes to the point where it feels like they’ve just been removed from the fight. Necros, rangers, mesmers, engineers without nades up etc. end up very vulnerable. Eles who have blown their combo and end up in an attunement like water, similarly, get stuck. Warriors end up being a solid counter to binding roots, as are thieves and offensive guardians, as each can clear multiple roots off your team nearly instantly.

Since the above vulnerable groups are the dangerous classes, people use roots. Res pet, by contrast, does very well against spiky teams, as a warrior/thief can down someone, then their target gets up and the warrior/thief has no juice left and 1/3rd of his hp.

I don’t think warrior is quite at a 3/10 in theory, but in practice, frost and shocking aura are absurdly strong anti-warrior tools in team fights, and they’re not even brought to deal with warriors specifically.

Lol this post is long. Time to go to sleep.

great reply

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

my facination with entangle is i belieave its the strongest 1v1 elite and strongest teamfight elite so if i compare that to the others its the best elite. you have to blow break stuns to get out of it but usually take dmg by then and thats hoping u have a break stun for it.

You can condi cleanse the immobilize and then immediately dodge roll out of entangle. It’s never felt all that game changing in team fights to me personally, but I suppose it is underrated because the pbAoE is quite large.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Wow, so the player you stomped will have 15 sec respawn + time to get to middle. So about 30 secs you have a 3v2 advantage. Gl when third is coming and they stomp you with timewarp…cuz obviously you wasted it before. I don’t get this tactic, you should try it without timwarp mabye

Well the point of my strategy is to show advantage of having mesmer/guardian/ele in team, or should I say its even necessity. You saying your mesmer coming to mid and using time warp is just further proving my point about these 3.
All our discussion was actually countering ele on far node + having guardian on mid. And seems like both of us want mesmer with time warp in part of solution.

Zinwrath.2049:

TBH, its a bit soon to really rank professions in a game that has no tournaments,
no system to tell whos better or worst than the next,
maps with 2nd objectives (and future 2nd objectives) that could create new roles
is still under going reform,
and finally…is a game few people play comparitivly to already succesful competitive games. (more people play dominion for league of legends than this games spvp…and that game mode doesnt even make up 1-100th of its internet traffic)

I’ll start wrapping my mind around what profession is stronger in a team when it actually matters…seemingly no earlier than end of this year. Which i imagine there will be a LOT of random changes between now and then.

i feel this is one of the most important factors in reasons why ppl left the game. balance is very important from day 1. when people play so well and still lose because of balance then that is unacceptable.

Duncanmix.5238:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Duncanmix.5238:

I don’t have team, this was just my thinking and my experience. But first yes I wanna discuss more. You said you will slow down my ele? How do you plan to do that. Lets imagine we play forest map, it is almost impossible to stop me from reaching your node on time. Unless you put people on me, which will lose you middle. Every person you place to take care of my ele is equaling to having extra less person on middle. Another thing is that you used ele on our far node, which pretty much means we agree ele is must. Now another point is, do you have guardian on middle. If you don’t have guardian on middle, its highly chance my team will take it eventually.
This leaves only discussion about is your ranger faster to deal with my ele, or my mesmer can deal faster with your ele. This is debatable, and also depend on builds + will you sent one from mid to help out etc. If you have guardian you can afford to sent one guy to deal with ele. And then I feel that my team have upper hand because mesmer ulti + for example thief, and good bye to your ele.

so we like to send 4 ppl out the beach door. i start with magic bullet stun through ur ride the lightning then beserker to cripple u and put u in combat. that is all it takes and if we land it the rest my team is already running to mid without entering combat. if we nne dextra slow on u a second person can help. guardian for example with immobaloze. plus the ranger has traps set down so he will always get the cap. now the ele on our team ignored all that and went straight to your point and you called 4 our crossing because you seen 4 us beach door so most likely 2-3 will stay at your home point but we are going to mid. we have 3 ppl beating on your guard and can have him dead in 20 seconds reguardless of what he does. the second guy will be trickling into mid and maybe the 3rd guy if your mesmer says he can take our ele but they cant so now we have ur guard down and he didnt hurt any of us we have a engi and a guard in mid so whatever 2 you have is going to have a hard time killing us 3. at that point ranger will tell me how much time he has left either he is about to die or has to break off let it get neatralized to stay alive. i would be first rotater on my mesmer and would evaluate the time it takes me to get to him on when i have to break off. but if you left 2 ppl to stay home against our ele after we kill guard i immediatley rotate back home point scare you off our ranger and let our 2 at mid 2v1 your 1 person left. plus our ele doesnt kite your 2 close back to mid hes by you base so yes you have it capped by hes toying with 2 ppl leaving us outnumbering your team.

and this whole game came down to you leaving a mesmer and us leaving a ranger at home point. just the difference in score i give classes really does make a huge difference in a actual game.

now you can put a thief or warrior in my spot and they can be as useful as me but lets say i stop playing mesmer and pick up necro or ranger and we run a top 5 class comp then our strats are amplified just because of how much better the class is.

Well obviously you are making strategy all the time that is trying perfectly to counter what my strategy is doing. But that’s because you read what I said. Also 80% of your strategy is focused on countering my ele which leaves you with early advantage.
Now that I know whats your plan I’m changing my strategy too. I’m sending 4 beach too including mesmer. But I have time warp, all my people will focus one of your guys that is most squishy chain cc on him. In the mean time my ele will run through and stop your ranger from capping, same as your ele will stop ours.
Now situation is:
- my ranger vs your ele
- your ranger vs my ele
- 3v2 on mid cause I had time warp

nice your thinking on a pro lvl. so now we engage in a 3v3 on mid fight you have a mesmer a guard and a what? because a team with a necro a guard and engi will win the 3v3. also the time warp on beach is very bad idea very easy to get out of

ohh and i pre think of every posibility ppl can do and we call out movements compared to what the other team does.

Battosai.5620:

why are you people only considering trap rangers? it’s just not as good, it’s subpar and get’s easily countered.
furthermore a ranger shouldn’t lose a 1v1 against a dps guard – but then again keep playing trap ranger till you figure out how to abuse the only 2 really viable trait lines ranger has.
oh and on a sidenote – nobody is playing any class to it’s full potential (yet), there’s just no reason to, people might have done the theory crafting for it but why bother trying hard, when the current state of the game really doesn’t take much “skill” to be on top.
but keep the arguments coming, they’re at least fun to read.

i am only using the best builds now with my numbers because they are the best builds. there is no point for to take into account a worse build because when you get to high lvl play there is no reason not to give yourself every advantage.

i honestly do feel i am using mesmer to the full potential it has. every new role i want to make it i have different builds but for the optimal play from the mesmer it really falls short. i belieave im the best mesmer in the game but to be humble i will just say top 3. but i go 100% hard every game rather its against pugs or premades it dont matter to me.

but that goes to my saying karl needs to somehow get the top 3 of each class and test numbers in a full potential environment so we can correctly balance this game.

NA ego so OP.

guza.6170:

NA ego so OP.

EU ain’t got nuttin’ on dis.

Duncanmix.5238:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Wow, so the player you stomped will have 15 sec respawn + time to get to middle. So about 30 secs you have a 3v2 advantage. Gl when third is coming and they stomp you with timewarp…cuz obviously you wasted it before. I don’t get this tactic, you should try it without timwarp mabye

Well the point of my strategy is to show advantage of having mesmer/guardian/ele in team, or should I say its even necessity. You saying your mesmer coming to mid and using time warp is just further proving my point about these 3.
All our discussion was actually countering ele on far node + having guardian on mid. And seems like both of us want mesmer with time warp in part of solution.

no i would prefare any of the top 5 scores over a mesmer. time warp doesnot make up for the rest of the team fight the top 5 classes bring to the team fight or 3v3. your compareing 10 seconds every 4 min to 3 min and 50 seconds of a better class. and thats saying you are in a 3v3 against kitten that dont just jump off the timewarp like most ppl do

ur original reason for having mesmer was to put him at home node and portal play that. that was an aweful reason for a mesmer. but now it changed into take a mesmer for time warp and i feel that is a awful reason as well. i cant justify bringing a mesmer over any of the top 5 scored classes because there is no comparison.

I would love to copy the engineer builds , that offers knockback + aoe danage + condi clears+ survivability +heals +stomp and res without getting destroyed but not super fast

That why they nerfed the <<kit ref >> !
kitten u Enginners in the paid pvp scene !

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Duncanmix.5238:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Wow, so the player you stomped will have 15 sec respawn + time to get to middle. So about 30 secs you have a 3v2 advantage. Gl when third is coming and they stomp you with timewarp…cuz obviously you wasted it before. I don’t get this tactic, you should try it without timwarp mabye

Well the point of my strategy is to show advantage of having mesmer/guardian/ele in team, or should I say its even necessity. You saying your mesmer coming to mid and using time warp is just further proving my point about these 3.
All our discussion was actually countering ele on far node + having guardian on mid. And seems like both of us want mesmer with time warp in part of solution.

no i would prefare any of the top 5 scores over a mesmer. time warp doesnot make up for the rest of the team fight the top 5 classes bring to the team fight or 3v3. your compareing 10 seconds every 4 min to 3 min and 50 seconds of a better class. and thats saying you are in a 3v3 against kitten that dont just jump off the timewarp like most ppl do

ur original reason for having mesmer was to put him at home node and portal play that. that was an aweful reason for a mesmer. but now it changed into take a mesmer for time warp and i feel that is a awful reason as well. i cant justify bringing a mesmer over any of the top 5 scored classes because there is no comparison.

It is worth bringing a mesmer if that mesmer is ellen ary.

Masternewbz.4953:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Duncanmix.5238:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Wow, so the player you stomped will have 15 sec respawn + time to get to middle. So about 30 secs you have a 3v2 advantage. Gl when third is coming and they stomp you with timewarp…cuz obviously you wasted it before. I don’t get this tactic, you should try it without timwarp mabye

Well the point of my strategy is to show advantage of having mesmer/guardian/ele in team, or should I say its even necessity. You saying your mesmer coming to mid and using time warp is just further proving my point about these 3.
All our discussion was actually countering ele on far node + having guardian on mid. And seems like both of us want mesmer with time warp in part of solution.

no i would prefare any of the top 5 scores over a mesmer. time warp doesnot make up for the rest of the team fight the top 5 classes bring to the team fight or 3v3. your compareing 10 seconds every 4 min to 3 min and 50 seconds of a better class. and thats saying you are in a 3v3 against kitten that dont just jump off the timewarp like most ppl do

ur original reason for having mesmer was to put him at home node and portal play that. that was an aweful reason for a mesmer. but now it changed into take a mesmer for time warp and i feel that is a awful reason as well. i cant justify bringing a mesmer over any of the top 5 scored classes because there is no comparison.

It is worth bringing a mesmer if that mesmer is ellen ary.

please no jokes lets keep this conversation serious.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Masternewbz.4953:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Duncanmix.5238:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Wow, so the player you stomped will have 15 sec respawn + time to get to middle. So about 30 secs you have a 3v2 advantage. Gl when third is coming and they stomp you with timewarp…cuz obviously you wasted it before. I don’t get this tactic, you should try it without timwarp mabye

Well the point of my strategy is to show advantage of having mesmer/guardian/ele in team, or should I say its even necessity. You saying your mesmer coming to mid and using time warp is just further proving my point about these 3.
All our discussion was actually countering ele on far node + having guardian on mid. And seems like both of us want mesmer with time warp in part of solution.

no i would prefare any of the top 5 scores over a mesmer. time warp doesnot make up for the rest of the team fight the top 5 classes bring to the team fight or 3v3. your compareing 10 seconds every 4 min to 3 min and 50 seconds of a better class. and thats saying you are in a 3v3 against kitten that dont just jump off the timewarp like most ppl do

ur original reason for having mesmer was to put him at home node and portal play that. that was an aweful reason for a mesmer. but now it changed into take a mesmer for time warp and i feel that is a awful reason as well. i cant justify bringing a mesmer over any of the top 5 scored classes because there is no comparison.

It is worth bringing a mesmer if that mesmer is ellen ary.

please no jokes lets keep this conversation serious.

its not a joke. ellen ary kitten every1

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Battosai.5620:

why are you people only considering trap rangers? it’s just not as good, it’s subpar and get’s easily countered.
furthermore a ranger shouldn’t lose a 1v1 against a dps guard – but then again keep playing trap ranger till you figure out how to abuse the only 2 really viable trait lines ranger has.
oh and on a sidenote – nobody is playing any class to it’s full potential (yet), there’s just no reason to, people might have done the theory crafting for it but why bother trying hard, when the current state of the game really doesn’t take much “skill” to be on top.
but keep the arguments coming, they’re at least fun to read.

i am only using the best builds now with my numbers because they are the best builds. there is no point for to take into account a worse build because when you get to high lvl play there is no reason not to give yourself every advantage.

i honestly do feel i am using mesmer to the full potential it has. every new role i want to make it i have different builds but for the optimal play from the mesmer it really falls short. i belieave im the best mesmer in the game but to be humble i will just say top 3. but i go 100% hard every game rather its against pugs or premades it dont matter to me.

but that goes to my saying karl needs to somehow get the top 3 of each class and test numbers in a full potential environment so we can correctly balance this game.

trap ranger is not the best build. do you seriously believe that?

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Duncanmix.5238:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Wow, so the player you stomped will have 15 sec respawn + time to get to middle. So about 30 secs you have a 3v2 advantage. Gl when third is coming and they stomp you with timewarp…cuz obviously you wasted it before. I don’t get this tactic, you should try it without timwarp mabye

Well the point of my strategy is to show advantage of having mesmer/guardian/ele in team, or should I say its even necessity. You saying your mesmer coming to mid and using time warp is just further proving my point about these 3.
All our discussion was actually countering ele on far node + having guardian on mid. And seems like both of us want mesmer with time warp in part of solution.

no i would prefare any of the top 5 scores over a mesmer. time warp doesnot make up for the rest of the team fight the top 5 classes bring to the team fight or 3v3. your compareing 10 seconds every 4 min to 3 min and 50 seconds of a better class. and thats saying you are in a 3v3 against kitten that dont just jump off the timewarp like most ppl do

ur original reason for having mesmer was to put him at home node and portal play that. that was an aweful reason for a mesmer. but now it changed into take a mesmer for time warp and i feel that is a awful reason as well. i cant justify bringing a mesmer over any of the top 5 scored classes because there is no comparison.

Obviously I’m trying to counter your strategy with mesmer in team. That’s why I put mesmer on beach now. Also mesmer strength is not only in portal but other skills as well including illusion rev.
There is one point where we simply don’t agree: you say that guardian + necro + engi will beat guardian + ranger + mesmer. I do not believe in this.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Re: Taym.

Binding roots kittens on a few classes to the point where it feels like they’ve just been removed from the fight. Necros, rangers, mesmers, engineers without nades up etc. end up very vulnerable. Eles who have blown their combo and end up in an attunement like water, similarly, get stuck. Warriors end up being a solid counter to binding roots, as are thieves and offensive guardians, as each can clear multiple roots off your team nearly instantly.

Necros – Plague signet, Dark Path, Consume Conditions, Well of Power
Rangers – sword 2, sword 3, dagger 4, shortbow 3, Emapth Bond, Signet of Renewal
Mesmer – distortion, blurred frenzy, phase retreat, illusionary leap w/ swap, null field, blink, mantra of resolve (no one uses this but 2 condis up to 3 times).
Engineers – Damage, elixir S, Gear Shield, Overcharged shot, rocket boots (lesser used)
Elementalists only get caught if all of their defensives are down as well. Look at the list, this is what you said is weak to the ability. The lowest amount of counters a given class has is 2 at a time. meaning if you do hit with the ability (that is very obvious seeing as its one of the few abilities that has you jump in the air) that these abilities will get you out of it. It also at max can affect 5 people which is choses based on proximity (meaning any pets closer to the casting ranger take priority). I also bolded the important part of you saying the remaining classes counter the ability by just being around at the time it is cast.

Empiren.6401:

Entangling roots is one if not THE best elite in the game for offense.

Not only does it entangle, it bleeds. For a LOT. its around 20k if condition build, the highest in the game.(also at a shorter duration than other high bleeds, necromancer’s cry).

It also has a relatively high hp if you used up your condition removal. Meaning condition builds and non-melee will have a harder time getting out by force.
—————————————————-
2minute cooldown and you have to consider: Not everyone is playing you 1v1 and this skill is aoe, you are deffinitely going to get some hits in on TOP of those bleeds.
—————————————-

But most other ultimates aren’t really that offensive(at least the ones used). And stability can always be stripped for the tranformation type. Its a great elite, but then again, ranger is primarily offensive in nature so its only natural.

Entangle is base 150s cooldown going to 120s with survival training. It is also the only elite/heal that rangers get that can have the CD lowered. My point is that if the player allows themselves to get hit by all 14 stacks of the bleeds it will do decent damage, however if you get above 2 stacks from the elite the other team has done very poorly. Sidenote: The ability does 1 bleed 8s bleed every 1.5 seconds for a total of 14 bleeds, the tooltip is completely incorrect. meaning in order to accomplish to 20k you speak of in condition damage it would need to tick for 178.57 damage per tick, which is around the ballpark of 2700 condition damage.
The list of counters AFTER being hit for the “vulnerable classes” is listed up above.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

my facination with entangle is i belieave its the strongest 1v1 elite and strongest teamfight elite so if i compare that to the others its the best elite. you have to blow break stuns to get out of it but usually take dmg by then and thats hoping u have a break stun for it.

It does not stun, it immobilizes and adds a bleed. and mesmers themselves have 3 abilities on weapons alone to bypass its effectiveness and one shatter. I do agree though if other players were not allowed to do anything inside of it as if it was a stun it would be the best ability in the game, however it is not and allows for quite a bit of counterplay which I think is completely healthy. Its a low cooldown because every single class in the game has a few counters for it, its not like the counterplay of some other abilities like Rampage as One in a 1v1 fight where the counterplay is to leave for 20 seconds, or timewarp in a teamfight.

Also I did not mean to come across as harsh or anything, just trying to show that the ability itself is not as strong as you believe. The strength of it is similar to the strength of the Spirit elite where as long as your opponent does not properly know how to deal with it, it is powerful. But as we all know the spirit elite rez is a 2 second ability (which cannot be cancelled) and can be interupted or just hold dps for a short time.

Taym.8326:

Archer Henchman.2534:

Re: Taym.

Binding roots kittens on a few classes to the point where it feels like they’ve just been removed from the fight. Necros, rangers, mesmers, engineers without nades up etc. end up very vulnerable. Eles who have blown their combo and end up in an attunement like water, similarly, get stuck. Warriors end up being a solid counter to binding roots, as are thieves and offensive guardians, as each can clear multiple roots off your team nearly instantly.

Necros – Plague signet, Dark Path, Consume Conditions, Well of Power
Rangers – sword 2, sword 3, dagger 4, shortbow 3, Emapth Bond, Signet of Renewal
Mesmer – distortion, blurred frenzy, phase retreat, illusionary leap w/ swap, null field, blink, mantra of resolve (no one uses this but 2 condis up to 3 times).
Engineers – Damage, elixir S, Gear Shield, Overcharged shot, rocket boots (lesser used)
Elementalists only get caught if all of their defensives are down as well. Look at the list, this is what you said is weak to the ability. The lowest amount of counters a given class has is 2 at a time. meaning if you do hit with the ability (that is very obvious seeing as its one of the few abilities that has you jump in the air) that these abilities will get you out of it. It also at max can affect 5 people which is choses based on proximity (meaning any pets closer to the casting ranger take priority). I also bolded the important part of you saying the remaining classes counter the ability by just being around at the time it is cast.

Empiren.6401:

Entangling roots is one if not THE best elite in the game for offense.

Not only does it entangle, it bleeds. For a LOT. its around 20k if condition build, the highest in the game.(also at a shorter duration than other high bleeds, necromancer’s cry).

It also has a relatively high hp if you used up your condition removal. Meaning condition builds and non-melee will have a harder time getting out by force.
—————————————————-
2minute cooldown and you have to consider: Not everyone is playing you 1v1 and this skill is aoe, you are deffinitely going to get some hits in on TOP of those bleeds.
—————————————-

But most other ultimates aren’t really that offensive(at least the ones used). And stability can always be stripped for the tranformation type. Its a great elite, but then again, ranger is primarily offensive in nature so its only natural.

Entangle is base 150s cooldown going to 120s with survival training. It is also the only elite/heal that rangers get that can have the CD lowered. My point is that if the player allows themselves to get hit by all 14 stacks of the bleeds it will do decent damage, however if you get above 2 stacks from the elite the other team has done very poorly. Sidenote: The ability does 1 bleed 8s bleed every 1.5 seconds for a total of 14 bleeds, the tooltip is completely incorrect. The list of counters AFTER being hit is listed up above.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

my facination with entangle is i belieave its the strongest 1v1 elite and strongest teamfight elite so if i compare that to the others its the best elite. you have to blow break stuns to get out of it but usually take dmg by then and thats hoping u have a break stun for it.

It does not stun, it immobilizes and adds a bleed. and mesmers themselves have 3 abilities on weapons alone to bypass its effectiveness and one shatter. I do agree though if other players were not allowed to do anything inside of it as if it was a stun it would be the best ability in the game, however it is not and allows for quite a bit of counterplay which I think is completely healthy. Its a low cooldown because every single class in the game has a few counters for it, its not like the counterplay of some other abilities like Rampage as One in a 1v1 fight where the counterplay is to leave for 20 seconds, or timewarp in a teamfight.

I agree with your examination, but classes who have their evasive skills on cooldown get demolished while inside of it, while thieves and warriors have enough upfront damage to just clear multiple roots off themselves and their allies. Teams won’t don’t clear the roots also leave their backlines with severely reduced mobility, as the roots will actually re-grab you if you approach them again. Being forced to drop a 45s cooldown evasive ability is a pretty heavy penalty to play if you’re also playing around an incoming timewarp and crate, in comparison with clearing the entire ult with a whirlwind and an auto.

My statement was more that roots are MORE effective on those classes because they forced a team-wide set of evasives to be burned. That’s incredibly powerful for an ability that’s going to be up for most team fights. Its less spectacular when its burning a clusterbomb and nothing else.

Archer Henchman.2534:

I agree with your examination, but classes who have their evasive skills on cooldown get demolished while inside of it, while thieves and warriors have enough upfront damage to just clear multiple roots off themselves and their allies. Teams won’t don’t clear the roots also leave their backlines with severely reduced mobility, as the roots will actually re-grab you if you approach them again. Being forced to drop a 45s cooldown evasive ability is a pretty heavy penalty to play if you’re also playing around an incoming timewarp and crate, in comparison with clearing the entire ult with a whirlwind and an auto.

My statement was more that roots are MORE effective on those classes because they forced a team-wide set of evasives to be burned. That’s incredibly powerful for an ability that’s going to be up for most team fights. Its less spectacular when its burning a clusterbomb and nothing else.

I do agree that it can case a drop of DPS for one team to get out of the roots, however many classes can take this in stride such as a mesmer who can still do either entire combo from the roots. Rangers should be out on the first immobilize tick, as should all of them as there is too much access to counters. Many of those evasives are on cooldowns as low as 6 seconds and go up to 15. The only class that really has to pay attention of those ones to “not waste a cooldown” is the necro with its deathshroud teleport as that is a longer cooldown. I think its only fair to say that necro is the only class truely punished by the ability.

All I am really trying to point out is an ELITE ability that cannot be used against 3/8 classes in the game because they hard counter it, and for the remaining classes it has to be used after they use their defensive abilities is in no way an overly powerful elite (timewarp).

Taym.8326:

Archer Henchman.2534:

I agree with your examination, but classes who have their evasive skills on cooldown get demolished while inside of it, while thieves and warriors have enough upfront damage to just clear multiple roots off themselves and their allies. Teams won’t don’t clear the roots also leave their backlines with severely reduced mobility, as the roots will actually re-grab you if you approach them again. Being forced to drop a 45s cooldown evasive ability is a pretty heavy penalty to play if you’re also playing around an incoming timewarp and crate, in comparison with clearing the entire ult with a whirlwind and an auto.

My statement was more that roots are MORE effective on those classes because they forced a team-wide set of evasives to be burned. That’s incredibly powerful for an ability that’s going to be up for most team fights. Its less spectacular when its burning a clusterbomb and nothing else.

I do agree that it can case a drop of DPS for one team to get out of the roots, however many classes can take this in stride such as a mesmer who can still do either entire combo from the roots. Rangers should be out on the first immobilize tick, as should all of them as there is too much access to counters. Many of those evasives are on cooldowns as low as 6 seconds and go up to 15. The only class that really has to pay attention of those ones to “not waste a cooldown” is the necro with its deathshroud teleport as that is a longer cooldown. I think its only fair to say that necro is the only class truely punished by the ability.

All I am really trying to point out is an ELITE ability that cannot be used against 3/8 classes in the game because they hard counter it, and for the remaining classes it has to be used after they use their defensive abilities is in no way an overly powerful elite (timewarp).

I dont really think that’s the case. We’re looking at situations in which a class has their outs readily available, but roots is dropped mid fight once a team starts to burn their skills to get out of other things. If a mesmer’s just used his ileap combo and gets rooted out of position, for instance, his only option is to distortion. Similarly, engineers have to spend far more expensive skills, cooldown wise, to get out.

Looking at the skill with a microscope and not examining everything else that a comp is doing to set up a strong roots obviously leads to people seeing outs; the game is designed with a bunch of get-out-of-jail-free cards. For instance, for a ranger to use his sword abilities to get out of roots, he is forced to switch to sword in a fight where he can’t stay in melee range (and if he felt comfortable meleeing a guardian during a team fight, maybe your team wasn’t in a position to be tossing roots, let alone team fighting) Essentially, the ranger’s doing very little until his weapon swap comes back up, besides throwing out his offhand and utility skills. Similarly, dropping a blurred frenzy on roots or ileap onto a guardian just to panic get out of roots (recall, we’re saying you need to be out within a second) shuts down a mesmer’s standard burst combo for 6-10 seconds. Multiply that downtime by three or four and I’d gladly make that trade for a 2 minute cooldown.

Thief and warrior turn that downtime trade into ult for 3 initiative or ult for whirlwind. That’s a horrendous trade.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Guardian 7/10: Guards are great at neuting and holding points for a long time. If your 4v4 away from them goes on forever and ur guard is left 1v1, then he may die. Guards are real dependent on team fights and that’s where they thrive; they have great cc, great reses, great stomps, great heals and condi clears, but very little dmg, unless u count the staff adding dmg then that is good also. Also, not great mobility. Relatively easy to stomp, if he goes down

If bunker spec’d guard is considered in this information than a majority of it is true. A bunker guard, however, still has one of the highest base damage numbers in the game – not even counting what happens when modifiers are added (either incidentally in the course of building a bunker or spec’ing for offensive/balanced). The guardian has multiple avenues for swiftness and movement skills – access to mobility is based on the skill and build of the player, not the class as a whole.

If you run timers and damage calculations with zero modifiers and similar armor/amulet set ups, you will see that the damage a guardian is capable of – even in bunker spec – is quite high regardless.

Moreover, using the staff as a means to increase your damage output is certainly a viable option (either with offensive guardian using the AA for aoe crits/et cetera or a bunker guardian using the empower for team encounters/et cetera). However, with respect to the guardian and the voluminous options available for might stacking, the staff is not on par with other options for might stacks.

The balance in this game cannot be accurately gauged for a number of reasons and to simply list out some particulars of each class is not enough to identify these issues. Yes, the game is a conquest PvP game-type. There are inherent issues to game health and the meta-game development surrounding this particular game type when compared to any other options. However, there are still some core mechanical issues in the game (initiative, thief damage multipliers, the inherent issues with low HP base classes, et cetera), inaccurate or poorly illustrated tool tips, and a trait matrix that is catawampus (and with traits in places that do not match their cost versus reward on either end of the spectrum) and in possession of traits that will never get used.

So, you have some core issues that need resolving, you need to be able to look at a tool tip and know if it is working properly or accurately, and the traits and trait matrix needs to be revisited. Before one can make the assessments you have, some things need to be addressed first.

Battosai.5620:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Battosai.5620:

why are you people only considering trap rangers? it’s just not as good, it’s subpar and get’s easily countered.
furthermore a ranger shouldn’t lose a 1v1 against a dps guard – but then again keep playing trap ranger till you figure out how to abuse the only 2 really viable trait lines ranger has.
oh and on a sidenote – nobody is playing any class to it’s full potential (yet), there’s just no reason to, people might have done the theory crafting for it but why bother trying hard, when the current state of the game really doesn’t take much “skill” to be on top.
but keep the arguments coming, they’re at least fun to read.

i am only using the best builds now with my numbers because they are the best builds. there is no point for to take into account a worse build because when you get to high lvl play there is no reason not to give yourself every advantage.

i honestly do feel i am using mesmer to the full potential it has. every new role i want to make it i have different builds but for the optimal play from the mesmer it really falls short. i belieave im the best mesmer in the game but to be humble i will just say top 3. but i go 100% hard every game rather its against pugs or premades it dont matter to me.

but that goes to my saying karl needs to somehow get the top 3 of each class and test numbers in a full potential environment so we can correctly balance this game.

trap ranger is not the best build. do you seriously believe that?

yes i believe facts. vinhungry ran a awesome bunkery build were he could come to pressure home point and do crazy dmg with pet and not taking dmg. that build is good but doesnt bring the time efficency with taking points nuetralizing or dmg per second that the vyndetta type trap ranger brings. but all the other ranger builds dont compare.

Duncanmix.5238:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Duncanmix.5238:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Wow, so the player you stomped will have 15 sec respawn + time to get to middle. So about 30 secs you have a 3v2 advantage. Gl when third is coming and they stomp you with timewarp…cuz obviously you wasted it before. I don’t get this tactic, you should try it without timwarp mabye

Well the point of my strategy is to show advantage of having mesmer/guardian/ele in team, or should I say its even necessity. You saying your mesmer coming to mid and using time warp is just further proving my point about these 3.
All our discussion was actually countering ele on far node + having guardian on mid. And seems like both of us want mesmer with time warp in part of solution.

no i would prefare any of the top 5 scores over a mesmer. time warp doesnot make up for the rest of the team fight the top 5 classes bring to the team fight or 3v3. your compareing 10 seconds every 4 min to 3 min and 50 seconds of a better class. and thats saying you are in a 3v3 against kitten that dont just jump off the timewarp like most ppl do

ur original reason for having mesmer was to put him at home node and portal play that. that was an aweful reason for a mesmer. but now it changed into take a mesmer for time warp and i feel that is a awful reason as well. i cant justify bringing a mesmer over any of the top 5 scored classes because there is no comparison.

Obviously I’m trying to counter your strategy with mesmer in team. That’s why I put mesmer on beach now. Also mesmer strength is not only in portal but other skills as well including illusion rev.
There is one point where we simply don’t agree: you say that guardian + necro + engi will beat guardian + ranger + mesmer. I do not believe in this.

if your taking a class for the revive then i would pick necro over the mesmer because they dont drop back down after time its a full revive. i am just saying everything else brings more then a mesmer i am not saying dont bring a mesmer just that the 5 clases i scored higher can do what it does but better.

if you think there is some things the mesmer can do better then any of the top 5 let me know so i can check what i tested and then i can tell you how and why the other classes do it better

This was a pretty good analysis of the current situation SAtaarcoeny. Some would argue different spots for classes, but I think its a good overall estimate of whats going on. Warrior is in definite need of a buff there is no doubt about that, but that has more to do with their passive condition removal and defensive options than anything about their damage. They suffer worse especially now that everyone is running in pugs where “carrying” a class so they can perform their role is much harder. Also toning down some of their most significant competition(ranger,ele) would do them a benefit overall.

Thieves were strong, if not dominantly strong, within the roamer role for many months. Its just that the meta eventually shifted more towards sturdier/self-sufficient characters with the glassier builds were eventually weeded out by thief making their ability to shift battles with a gib significantly harder to pull off. Shortbow is still a godly weapon that nearly packs everything in one package, its just that none of the other weapon sets with the possible exception of D/P are nearly as well-rounded or integral to the role.

I am more optimistic after the last SoTG where they seemed to be finally admitting the lackluster design of the class as it is(mug does kitten damage, lack of sustain, etc.), and seem to be pushing the class away from their current all or nothing setup towards something less stealth reliant and more well rounded. Pushing boon hate/stripping is I think far more effective for thief being able to perform its “intended” role of taking down bunkers with spike, because right now they punish squishier builds far more than bunkers. Their ability to disengage so easily, blow people up from stealth with mug+backstab or put huge pressure on points with trick shot/choking gas if anything has pushed the meta where it is now(Besides tankele being dumb too). They still should be able to do high sustained damage, but not the amount of spike they do now.

Mesmers I think have suffered a similar situation in the meta shift but have made out far better with the team utility combined with damage they bring. The talk on SoTG of bringing down shatter damage for more boon hate should be good for the class overall.

As for eles, they just need to balance the tankele. Move around defensive options in higher tiers like Earth’s embrace, reduce protection/stability up-time(main source of their survival), and curb high end healing with diminishing returns and you’ve probably effectively balanced them. DPS ele is stronger that people give it credit for, but has been suffering nerfs alongside the tankele nerfs. What the class needs is the removal of arcana attunement cooldown reduction traiting bonus for a flat reduction of 9-11 seconds. Right now as an ele you can’t afford to not put points in Arcana(20 at least imo) because of how integral attunement swapping is to survival. They spoke briefly on this in the SoTG so I think they have the right idea.

They are moving the game in the right direction its just gonna take time because of how small their team is right now. Most fun recent MMO PvP+slow development time/no support=maximum frustration.

I cant believe people still respond to this guys postings. All he is some dude who never runs in anything but a full premade of rank 45+ people and has a guild name that is border insulting to your average player. We need to get past the idea that this type of players input is somehow more valubable then your average player that pugs or occassionally runs in groups its not.

Kwll.1468:

I cant believe people still respond to this guys postings. All he is some dude who never runs in anything but a full premade of rank 45+ people and has a guild name that is border insulting to your average player. We need to get past the idea that this type of players input is somehow more valubable then your average player that pugs or occassionally runs in groups its not.

i have pugged more games then most ppl have played and when i say i legit mean map chat randoms that i never heard of and i dont mean just 1 to fill a 4 man team i have but i take 2-3.

im sorry if the last 2 weeks i havnt pugged much but 2 weeks compared to release of this game isnt much.

but me being better and smarter and having a lot more experience with this game is why i post correct views of this game. go play all the classes and like most ppl will agree with this post.

you need to remember im basing this off of a conquest game type and am judgeing classes compared to eachother on important factors to win a game. it might be to complicated for you to do or understand but if you can do please be my guest go make a post and i will see if you are right and if i feel you are wrong i will disprove it not just make a random comment and tell ppl not to listen to you because you dont lose.

Kwll.1468:

I cant believe people still respond to this guys postings. All he is some dude who never runs in anything but a full premade of rank 45+ people and has a guild name that is border insulting to your average player. We need to get past the idea that this type of players input is somehow more valubable then your average player that pugs or occassionally runs in groups its not.

Sorry..but it’s always the same 5 cats who answer to these type of threads, like the 0.5% of the GW2 community…no need to get involved really

Archer Henchman.2534:

I’m probably the only thief who shortbows as much as I do, but thieves put out the highest consistent ranged damage in the game. Poison is the most important condition for pressuring an opposing team, and cluster/trickshot hit multiple targets.

This I agree with 100% and it’s wrong, so wrong….

I don’t think Thieves are exactly in the right place at the moment, why should they put out so much ranged damage and still have the ability to step in finish and stealth out.

They are not a ranged class so why should they be able to out damage a ranged class?

Speaking from experience I believe there needs to be some trait fixes or tweaks to non bunker Engi’s survivability, or fix toughness as it seems useless!

fishybill.6908:

Archer Henchman.2534:

I’m probably the only thief who shortbows as much as I do, but thieves put out the highest consistent ranged damage in the game. Poison is the most important condition for pressuring an opposing team, and cluster/trickshot hit multiple targets.

This I agree with 100% and it’s wrong, so wrong….

I don’t think Thieves are exactly in the right place at the moment, why should they put out so much ranged damage and still have the ability to step in finish and stealth out.

They are not a ranged class so why should they be able to out damage a ranged class?

What are the ranged classes now.

ensoriki.5789:

fishybill.6908:

Archer Henchman.2534:

I’m probably the only thief who shortbows as much as I do, but thieves put out the highest consistent ranged damage in the game. Poison is the most important condition for pressuring an opposing team, and cluster/trickshot hit multiple targets.

This I agree with 100% and it’s wrong, so wrong….

I don’t think Thieves are exactly in the right place at the moment, why should they put out so much ranged damage and still have the ability to step in finish and stealth out.

They are not a ranged class so why should they be able to out damage a ranged class?

What are the ranged classes now.

Well according to the last SOTG, ranger is the “long ranged skirmisher”.

lol.

waka.9826:

Well according to the last SOTG, ranger is the “long ranged skirmisher”.

lol.

I guess that’s why they made their poison application put on a 2s poison per arrow that hits on poison volley so they can stay at range and do amazing damage. Must also be why the increased damage (and bleeds) is on flanking because it is really simple to do at long distances.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Duncanmix.5238:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Duncanmix.5238:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Wow, so the player you stomped will have 15 sec respawn + time to get to middle. So about 30 secs you have a 3v2 advantage. Gl when third is coming and they stomp you with timewarp…cuz obviously you wasted it before. I don’t get this tactic, you should try it without timwarp mabye

Well the point of my strategy is to show advantage of having mesmer/guardian/ele in team, or should I say its even necessity. You saying your mesmer coming to mid and using time warp is just further proving my point about these 3.
All our discussion was actually countering ele on far node + having guardian on mid. And seems like both of us want mesmer with time warp in part of solution.

no i would prefare any of the top 5 scores over a mesmer. time warp doesnot make up for the rest of the team fight the top 5 classes bring to the team fight or 3v3. your compareing 10 seconds every 4 min to 3 min and 50 seconds of a better class. and thats saying you are in a 3v3 against kitten that dont just jump off the timewarp like most ppl do

ur original reason for having mesmer was to put him at home node and portal play that. that was an aweful reason for a mesmer. but now it changed into take a mesmer for time warp and i feel that is a awful reason as well. i cant justify bringing a mesmer over any of the top 5 scored classes because there is no comparison.

Obviously I’m trying to counter your strategy with mesmer in team. That’s why I put mesmer on beach now. Also mesmer strength is not only in portal but other skills as well including illusion rev.
There is one point where we simply don’t agree: you say that guardian + necro + engi will beat guardian + ranger + mesmer. I do not believe in this.

if your taking a class for the revive then i would pick necro over the mesmer because they dont drop back down after time its a full revive. i am just saying everything else brings more then a mesmer i am not saying dont bring a mesmer just that the 5 clases i scored higher can do what it does but better.

if you think there is some things the mesmer can do better then any of the top 5 let me know so i can check what i tested and then i can tell you how and why the other classes do it better

No I’m not picking mesmer just to revive. You need to look at full picture here. Why would I pick mesmer as top 3:
- portal – gives u flexible moving between 2 nodes created extra player
- time warp – best team ulti
- illusion rev – cheap revive
- great 1v1 ability
- high survivability
- extremely good boon removal

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

i feel this is one of the most important factors in reasons why ppl left the game. balance is very important from day 1. when people play so well and still lose because of balance then that is unacceptable.

Exactly.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Battosai.5620:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Battosai.5620:

why are you people only considering trap rangers? it’s just not as good, it’s subpar and get’s easily countered.
furthermore a ranger shouldn’t lose a 1v1 against a dps guard – but then again keep playing trap ranger till you figure out how to abuse the only 2 really viable trait lines ranger has.
oh and on a sidenote – nobody is playing any class to it’s full potential (yet), there’s just no reason to, people might have done the theory crafting for it but why bother trying hard, when the current state of the game really doesn’t take much “skill” to be on top.
but keep the arguments coming, they’re at least fun to read.

i am only using the best builds now with my numbers because they are the best builds. there is no point for to take into account a worse build because when you get to high lvl play there is no reason not to give yourself every advantage.

i honestly do feel i am using mesmer to the full potential it has. every new role i want to make it i have different builds but for the optimal play from the mesmer it really falls short. i belieave im the best mesmer in the game but to be humble i will just say top 3. but i go 100% hard every game rather its against pugs or premades it dont matter to me.

but that goes to my saying karl needs to somehow get the top 3 of each class and test numbers in a full potential environment so we can correctly balance this game.

trap ranger is not the best build. do you seriously believe that?

yes i believe facts. vinhungry ran a awesome bunkery build were he could come to pressure home point and do crazy dmg with pet and not taking dmg. that build is good but doesnt bring the time efficency with taking points nuetralizing or dmg per second that the vyndetta type trap ranger brings. but all the other ranger builds dont compare.

You can’t compare NA with EU. There are different playstyles etc.
As I see the effectiveness of the BM ranger and compare it to a trap ranger, the trap ranger isn’t that flexible. Also more squishier and easier to get. In EU you won’t see trap-rangers becuase there not viable enough to play. But that’s just MY opinion.

Korea is OP.
More Soju pls.

Yours truly,

Vain

DevilsGlare.7658:

Korea is OP.
More Soju pls.

Yours truly,

Vain

A wild vain appears! ….kitten out of pokeballs

I’ve found out they’re mass hoarding the poke balls in Korea.

Duncanmix.5238:

no i would prefare any of the top 5 scores over a mesmer. time warp doesnot make up for the rest of the team fight the top 5 classes bring to the team fight or 3v3. your compareing 10 seconds every 4 min to 3 min and 50 seconds of a better class. and thats saying you are in a 3v3 against kitten that dont just jump off the timewarp like most ppl do

ur original reason for having mesmer was to put him at home node and portal play that. that was an aweful reason for a mesmer. but now it changed into take a mesmer for time warp and i feel that is a awful reason as well. i cant justify bringing a mesmer over any of the top 5 scored classes because there is no comparison.

Obviously I’m trying to counter your strategy with mesmer in team. That’s why I put mesmer on beach now. Also mesmer strength is not only in portal but other skills as well including illusion rev.
There is one point where we simply don’t agree: you say that guardian + necro + engi will beat guardian + ranger + mesmer. I do not believe in this.

[/quote]

if your taking a class for the revive then i would pick necro over the mesmer because they dont drop back down after time its a full revive. i am just saying everything else brings more then a mesmer i am not saying dont bring a mesmer just that the 5 clases i scored higher can do what it does but better.

if you think there is some things the mesmer can do better then any of the top 5 let me know so i can check what i tested and then i can tell you how and why the other classes do it better[/quote]

No I’m not picking mesmer just to revive. You need to look at full picture here. Why would I pick mesmer as top 3:
- portal – gives u flexible moving between 2 nodes created extra player
- time warp – best team ulti
- illusion rev – cheap revive
- great 1v1 ability
- high survivability
- extremely good boon removal

[/quote]

the thing is i do look at the full picture.

yes a portal might let u move from mid to home but is easily countered by any of the classes i scored higher. it is countered in 2 ways. the first way it is countered is all those classes can beat the mesmer in a 1v1 and can do it pretty fast, if you stay on point even faster. now the secend counter is pretty good also and done mostly if you are a staff mesmer and that is called portal pop play. it is what we used to do to neru when he was staff. just pop his portal and take him out the fight for 90 seconds. both ways = waste of a class.

time warp. is not the best team utility it is actually one of the worst when you play actual teams. you can not use it in 1v1 cause a mesmer using it on himself is a joke, and in team fights against a team they all get out of it. good luck killing any people i play with with a timewarp. your best bet is to use it how i do as a definsive messure to scare the other team back and rez your teammates. but then ranger is better for that shorter cooldown on speed reses.

illusion would never be a reason i would take a mesmer. i would take the necro over that any day because the res is permanent plus the necro elite plauge form is way more useful in a team fight and the dmg per second a necro can dish out in a full fight is way more then a mesmer even while being focused down.

1v1 ability ? against who and in what scenario? against a warrior yes we can beat them every time. against a thief? 50/50 or maybe we can beat them 60% but against the others nope? unless they leave a guard unatended but then the other classes can beat it faster.

high survivability? 4 second invuln if u do it perfect with 4 clones once every 90 seconds unless u spec into it then it recharges at 50% health once every 90 seconds. and blured frenzy is 2 second invuln every 16 seconds unless u stay on that weapon set and spam 1 waiting for it to recharge. but then the main problem comes into affect during all that time the condis are killing you while you can do nothing about it. i think a high survivability would be being able to kill the person not just stay alivefor 20 seconds. because at the en d of the fight you die they win so there survivability is higher right?

extremly good boon removal? you just wasted all your clones on distortion so you cant remove boons plus you cant dmg cause you had to shatter your phantasms.

a mesmer is in the same boat as a warrior and a thief. yes you can take them but they are not self sufficiant, they need to play the part of a roamer and they need backup soon. everything you said they are ok at the other classes are better.

Balance is cool but still FEATURES>BALANCE anytime.

This game lacks so heavily on feature side that balance dont really matter.

Even with perfect balance noone would play this crap

Nilvio.7941:

Balance is cool but still FEATURES>BALANCE anytime.

This game lacks so heavily on feature side that balance dont really matter.

Even with perfect balance noone would play this crap

but thats the thing this game is not crap… it has so much potential (yes it keeps being said) if your hot girlfriend had a baby and 6 months later still had the fat would you just leave her? no cause you know she was hot and you should give her at least a year IMO

See I honestly think people in general and in this thread are thinking way to much about mechanics of the game without including other factors. The balance in this game is not as bad as people make it out to be. Classes are meant to do certain things and anet has done a good job at making that obvious with certain classes.

I keep seeing that this class and this class has shouldn’t be able to beat this comp or class based on what is written down on paper. That is the dumbest bs I ever heard or seen in my life and a typical excuse people use. I’m not calling a anyone out but so what if a class is supposed to perform better at certain aspects of the game(on paper). So what if the other teams comp (on paper) ikittenv5 or 3v3 is better. It doesn’t mean you cannot win. It comes down to the players and team play of both sides. If everyone constantly has that mentality you will never be able to compete at a top level in anything you do including sports, work, etc…..

All these posts about balance balance balance because a class cannot do this. Well classes are meant to do certain things which is why you have a team. You can play anything you want in this game if you wanted and any comp. All it takes is an adjustment to strategy. Some classes did needed to be toned down but sent he already done a good enough job with that.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

but thats the thing this game is not crap… it has so much potential (yes it keeps being said) if your hot girlfriend had a baby and 6 months later still had the fat would you just leave her? no cause you know she was hot and you should give her at least a year IMO

yes, i understand you and i can see potential.

But im still saying that balance wont sell this game. sPvP infrastructure is so horrible that people would have left anyway, even with perfect balance.

lilz shorty.1879:

See I honestly think people in general and in this thread are thinking way to much about mechanics of the game without including other factors. The balance in this game is not as bad as people make it out to be. Classes are meant to do certain things and anet has done a good job at making that obvious with certain classes.

I keep seeing that this class and this class has shouldn’t be able to beat this comp or class based on what is written down on paper. That is the dumbest bs I ever heard or seen in my life and a typical excuse people use. I’m not calling a anyone out but so what if a class is supposed to perform better at certain aspects of the game(on paper). So what if the other teams comp (on paper) ikittenv5 or 3v3 is better. It doesn’t mean you cannot win. It comes down to the players and team play of both sides. If everyone constantly has that mentality you will never be able to compete at a top level in anything you do including sports, work, etc…..

All these posts about balance balance balance because a class cannot do this. Well classes are meant to do certain things which is why you have a team. You can play anything you want in this game if you wanted and any comp. All it takes is an adjustment to strategy. Some classes did needed to be toned down but sent he already done a good enough job with that.

aww so that is the last thing that some might say should be factored in (SKILL) but it cant be factored in because if you take the most skilled ppl. for example the best ranger and the best warrior then it leads back to the class.

hman and nnight wont beat vyndetta or be anywere as useful its just that simple. doesnt matter how good they are.

so yes skill factors in but the classes should be balanced on paper then let skill win matches not classes.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

See I honestly think people in general and in this thread are thinking way to much about mechanics of the game without including other factors. The balance in this game is not as bad as people make it out to be. Classes are meant to do certain things and anet has done a good job at making that obvious with certain classes.

I keep seeing that this class and this class has shouldn’t be able to beat this comp or class based on what is written down on paper. That is the dumbest bs I ever heard or seen in my life and a typical excuse people use. I’m not calling a anyone out but so what if a class is supposed to perform better at certain aspects of the game(on paper). So what if the other teams comp (on paper) ikittenv5 or 3v3 is better. It doesn’t mean you cannot win. It comes down to the players and team play of both sides. If everyone constantly has that mentality you will never be able to compete at a top level in anything you do including sports, work, etc…..

All these posts about balance balance balance because a class cannot do this. Well classes are meant to do certain things which is why you have a team. You can play anything you want in this game if you wanted and any comp. All it takes is an adjustment to strategy. Some classes did needed to be toned down but sent he already done a good enough job with that.

aww so that is the last thing that some might say should be factored in (SKILL) but it cant be factored in because if you take the most skilled ppl. for example the best ranger and the best warrior then it leads back to the class.

hman and nnight wont beat vyndetta or be anywere as useful its just that simple. doesnt matter how good they are.

so yes skill factors in but the classes should be balanced on paper then let skill win matches not classes.

Yes but the best warrior can beat the best ranger lol. Skill is not the only thing lol being skillful but completely outplaying someone or another class is different. Vyndetta has lost to nnight in a 1v1 and I have beaten Vyn 1v1 as a guard a couple of times. But that’s not what I’m even getting at. Classes are meant to be better at certain aspects and your teams comp and strategy should account for that. The classes IMO are balanced for most part. I’d say roughly 85% of there. Just like a thief has to know his play style if he’s on a team. In anything you do, doesn’t matter if you are on the same level in terms of skill or knowledge, outplaying them is always a possilbity.

And speaking of nnight, he’s never lost to. A ranger 1v1 on his warrior either lol.

lilz shorty.1879:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

See I honestly think people in general and in this thread are thinking way to much about mechanics of the game without including other factors. The balance in this game is not as bad as people make it out to be. Classes are meant to do certain things and anet has done a good job at making that obvious with certain classes.

I keep seeing that this class and this class has shouldn’t be able to beat this comp or class based on what is written down on paper. That is the dumbest bs I ever heard or seen in my life and a typical excuse people use. I’m not calling a anyone out but so what if a class is supposed to perform better at certain aspects of the game(on paper). So what if the other teams comp (on paper) ikittenv5 or 3v3 is better. It doesn’t mean you cannot win. It comes down to the players and team play of both sides. If everyone constantly has that mentality you will never be able to compete at a top level in anything you do including sports, work, etc…..

All these posts about balance balance balance because a class cannot do this. Well classes are meant to do certain things which is why you have a team. You can play anything you want in this game if you wanted and any comp. All it takes is an adjustment to strategy. Some classes did needed to be toned down but sent he already done a good enough job with that.

aww so that is the last thing that some might say should be factored in (SKILL) but it cant be factored in because if you take the most skilled ppl. for example the best ranger and the best warrior then it leads back to the class.

hman and nnight wont beat vyndetta or be anywere as useful its just that simple. doesnt matter how good they are.

so yes skill factors in but the classes should be balanced on paper then let skill win matches not classes.

Yes but the best warrior can beat the best ranger lol. Skill is not the only thing lol being skillful but completely outplaying someone or another class is different. Vyndetta has lost to nnight in a 1v1 and I have beaten Vyn 1v1 as a guard a couple of times. But that’s not what I’m even getting at. Classes are meant to be better at certain aspects and your teams comp and strategy should account for that. The classes IMO are balanced for most part. I’d say roughly 85% of there. Just like a thief has to know his play style if he’s on a team. In anything you do, doesn’t matter if you are on the same level in terms of skill or knowledge, outplaying them is always a possilbity.

And speaking of nnight, he’s never lost to. A ranger 1v1 on his warrior either lol.

+100

lilz shorty.1879:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

See I honestly think people in general and in this thread are thinking way to much about mechanics of the game without including other factors. The balance in this game is not as bad as people make it out to be. Classes are meant to do certain things and anet has done a good job at making that obvious with certain classes.

I keep seeing that this class and this class has shouldn’t be able to beat this comp or class based on what is written down on paper. That is the dumbest bs I ever heard or seen in my life and a typical excuse people use. I’m not calling a anyone out but so what if a class is supposed to perform better at certain aspects of the game(on paper). So what if the other teams comp (on paper) ikittenv5 or 3v3 is better. It doesn’t mean you cannot win. It comes down to the players and team play of both sides. If everyone constantly has that mentality you will never be able to compete at a top level in anything you do including sports, work, etc…..

All these posts about balance balance balance because a class cannot do this. Well classes are meant to do certain things which is why you have a team. You can play anything you want in this game if you wanted and any comp. All it takes is an adjustment to strategy. Some classes did needed to be toned down but sent he already done a good enough job with that.

aww so that is the last thing that some might say should be factored in (SKILL) but it cant be factored in because if you take the most skilled ppl. for example the best ranger and the best warrior then it leads back to the class.

hman and nnight wont beat vyndetta or be anywere as useful its just that simple. doesnt matter how good they are.

so yes skill factors in but the classes should be balanced on paper then let skill win matches not classes.

Yes but the best warrior can beat the best ranger lol. Skill is not the only thing lol being skillful but completely outplaying someone or another class is different. Vyndetta has lost to nnight in a 1v1 and I have beaten Vyn 1v1 as a guard a couple of times. But that’s not what I’m even getting at. Classes are meant to be better at certain aspects and your teams comp and strategy should account for that. The classes IMO are balanced for most part. I’d say roughly 85% of there. Just like a thief has to know his play style if he’s on a team. In anything you do, doesn’t matter if you are on the same level in terms of skill or knowledge, outplaying them is always a possilbity.

And speaking of nnight, he’s never lost to. A ranger 1v1 on his warrior either lol.

IMO the 1 week you guys won made you act different i never played you that week when you guys did win so i dont know if you guys did get super good like you make it seem. but from all the times we did play and from talking with wale wale well after every game and hiim asking me how you guys can get better it always came down to your comps. and after nnight got off warrior and you guys started playing with a cheese ele is when you started winning.

i dont know if i actually understand the point your trying to make here on this thread.

my point is skill should not be a factored in creating a class. class balance should be factored in reguarding how you win the game. then after the game is balanced skill then determines who wins the game.

Elemantlist, Engineer, Guardian are top 3 class in this game.Thief, Mesmer and Warrior are still far too low in their comparative ratings.

Nilvio.7941:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

but thats the thing this game is not crap… it has so much potential (yes it keeps being said) if your hot girlfriend had a baby and 6 months later still had the fat would you just leave her? no cause you know she was hot and you should give her at least a year IMO

yes, i understand you and i can see potential.

But im still saying that balance wont sell this game. sPvP infrastructure is so horrible that people would have left anyway, even with perfect balance.

Just to add to this:

Players at the competitive level who are looking to make their mark have multiple options. If guild wars doesn’t look like its going to take off, then their practice time in guild wars is wasted. You can get good enough to hit 2400 rating in league in less than 4 months if you practice properly. If you’re reasonably smart, you can support yourself financially playing poker online within 2 months of playing. In DotA 2, there are 3-4 streamed tournaments running per day for you to spectate and learn off of and the prize pools are pretty substantial, with highlight reels and commentated games released daily. WoW, Runescape, Counterstrike and SC2 both keep viewer levels above 10k consistently. Top SC players from the non-korean scene flooded into dota when tournament funds dried up. Others made millions shifting into poker. I’ve personally played with Testie, Orb and a number of other notables from SC and SC2 as they moved away from scenes with no money. CS players shifted versions depending on which one had the most tournament activity. LoL, HoN and DotA2 have all had playerbase shifts in near direct proportion to the value of the tournaments that they’ve had (and, just a note, the tournament valuations and playerbase changes indicate that DotA2 is going to get huge). People from the upper echelons of RTS games that weren’t starcraft bled off towards SC while ICCUP was offering them a competitive ladder with recognition when their game’s tournament activity died down. See: Rise of Legends’s community nearly vaporizing the moment their 100k tournament finished, the playerbase stats for C&C3 and RA3, CoH1, followed identical patterns. In particular, the amount of players after patches generally increased, then tapered off for games that were in the midst of sunsetting.

Guild wars isn’t any different.

Communities that shrink go through a death spiral, wherein the paucity of player created content becomes more and more of an issue over time. GW2 used to have HUGE amounts of community content production. Forum activity at guru, for instance, has nearly vanished in the pvp sections, and PvP topics on reddit have stopped popping up. Esports subreddits have been abandoned. IRC channels are empty. Guides for classes aren’t updated. Videos and stream recordings become obsolete.

It isn’t enough for guild wars to be good. It has to be better than its competition. Not only is it not there yet, but its competition is getting better FAR FASTER than it is. I feel bad for Sharp, though. He seems like an awesome guy who just wasn’t given enough resources to do his job properly. I’ve interacted with a lot of developers and a lot of community reps in the past, and he’s downright impressive in comparison to most.