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Posted by: cymerdown.4103

cymerdown.4103

Thief – initiative regen reduced to 0.8/second; build diversity requires a 1.1khp base increase at level 80

Initiative changes seem fine to me so far. Pretty early to be calling for changes, at the very least. Don’t give Thief more HP, they’re fine as they are now (16k HP on zerker with no points in vitality tree, with Practiced Tolerance and Divinity runes).

Skills

Cluster Bomb – damage reduced by 12.5%

Probably too big of a nerf, honestly. I think a slight nerf is in order, but cutting it by 1/8 is kinda harsh. I’d start smaller, it’s not like it’s destroying the game or anything.

Shelk Venom – recharge reduced to 40 seconds

Maybe, but honestly, I’m not sure venom share is the spec we should be trying the hardest to balance right now. It’s very easy for it + pet builds to become absurd. Let’s fix less risky things first.

Traits

Improvisation – changed description from bundle to possessing a stolen skill

Ok, w/e.

Sleight of Hand – Internal cool down of 30 seconds

Same opinion as Chaith, it’s fine as is.

Elementalist – base health increased by 2k at level 80 to increase build diversity

Nah, just fix their sustain. Their health is low, but they’re a caster class. If they can heal themselves up adequately, keep range on their ranged weapons, and give themselves boon support, it should be alright.

Skills

Ice Bow – Ice Storm – reduced damage by 8.5%

Meteor Shower – reduced area by 10%;

Meh, when people start actually using these things to good effect in high level PvP, I’ll worry about it. Leave for now.

Churning Earth – is now a chargeable skill – instant cast will yield 2 bleed stacks at 2.5 second duration, 1 cripple application at 1 second, and base damage of 650; max charge will yield 8 bleed stacks at duration of 8 seconds, 4 cripple applications at a duration of 1 second, and base damage of 1,050; total charge time for max charge is 3.25 seconds

Could be cool if the numbers are done right.

Traits

Lightning Strike – ICD increased to 5 seconds

Definitely, instant cast burst spam is bad for the game.

Diamond Skin – reduced condition reduction to 95%, down from immunity

Nah, I would change the trait to be something else. How about, “Incoming condition duration is reduced by 100% for 2 seconds when you switch to Earth attunement.”? And give it the same treatment as zerk stance and AR as above.

Ranger
Skills

Spirits – all non-elite spirit passive effect radii are decreased to 650; actives are decreased to 240 radii

Spirit of Nature – recharge increased to 200 seconds; passive heal tick reduced to 300hps

Sounds good, but you can leave the recharge on Spirit of Nature. Also, the condi wipe on SoN should go down to 3 condis, or something.

Sword – decrease of evasion frame durations during auto-attack by 25%

Not sure this change is needed.

Traits

Bark Skin – damage reduction reduced to 45%

I dunno why they buffed this trait; not as though Ranger can afford to lose the condi removal from EB, anyway.

Empathetic Bond – is now activated on pet swap; 3 conditions transferred to pet; recharge time of 12 seconds

Hmm, interesting idea. Keep in mind that part of the strength of Empathic Bond is the ability to swap right after the trait procs, reducing the damage done to the pet by a lot. Maybe you just lose the 3 condis when swapping pets (it isn’t transferred)? Otherwise, your new pet could die pretty fast and then the Ranger gets put in a pretty bad position. Overall, this is a pretty huge nerf to Ranger, and will accentuate their fairly bad condi removal options without other changes. I’d be really careful with this.

Nature’s Vengeance – spirit activated radii decreased to 100

Nah, leave it.

Runes

Lyssa – ICD of 60 seconds

I think going up to 90s would be fine; people would still use them.

Kensuda (Bunker Guardian)
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(edited by cymerdown.4103)

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Posted by: cymerdown.4103

cymerdown.4103

Renewed Focus – increased duration to 3 seconds

Reverting stealth nerfs is always fun. Personally, I think bunker guard is still fine as it is, but it could go back to 3s, I guess.

What stealth nerf? RF was never 3s, it was always 2s with a tooltip error that didn’t get fixed for very long. It’s only 3s if traited for Elite Focus.

I think the current behavior is fine.

My bad. It always seemed like a short 3 seconds, but I guess I never checked.

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Posted by: cymerdown.4103

cymerdown.4103

Lol I agree the warrior regen is over the top. But all the thief changes are a little to much imo. I mean I go from beating any team in this game on my thief (which is a given) to my warrior alt, then getting completely smashed on liquor and beating anyone on front page while playing a guardian(while pugging with friends). So what i need from you guys is to train a little harder, strive to be better, use your brain, do some pushups, and motivate each other to do a little better. After that you may find yourselves winning some games.

Wow, Toker just went ham. Happy holidays, buddy.

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Posted by: DoYourBestBear.6810

DoYourBestBear.6810

I’ll respond to Kensuda’s points at some point, but I would like to take this moment to address Olrun’s inability to set basic equations.

The Healing Signet rebalance makes the base passive tick 200hps with a healing power scaling coefficient of 0.175.

With 1000 healing power you get: 1000 × 0.175 = 175hps
Your total passive tick becomes 375hps
Figuring the passive tick is incredibly easy, please do not post inaccurate math. This stuff is actually pretty easy.

With 1200 healing power, you get: 1200 × 0.175 = 210hps; this brings the total passive tick to 410hps.

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Posted by: Slim.3024

Slim.3024

Last Stand – stability and swiftness provided are reduced to 8 seconds

To match Balanced Stance. Makes sense.

Another of those funny things. A huge list of changes, apparently meticulously put together and in reality the changes proposed are nothing more than arbitrary and subjective, which becomes apparent by just looking at Last Stand, which already gives 8 second stability and swiftness, yet evidently requires to be changed to the very same 8 seconds it currently gives, in order to be balanced.

I am not saying all the changes in this list are bad (I absolutely agree with some of the changes, though I do not make the mistake to believe that any of them would make the game significantly better), nor has the op done a worse job than so many before him, but realize that simple class balance is not the problem.

The notion that the game is poorly balanced is hurting the game much more than the state of balance itself. If anything needs to be changed, it is the fundamental issues with PvP itself:

- Combat
- Conquest
- Down state
- Damage
- Class Dependency and Synergy
- Instant abilities
- AI
- Dodging and unavoidable attacks

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Posted by: DuranArgith.1354

DuranArgith.1354

Umm, couldnt you put this post in another whine about warriors and healing signet thread, instead of making random adjustments to classes and hiding it among those so you could make yet another thread?
You want to nerf healing signet fine, suggest another form of sustain for a melee class instead. Youll only bring us back to the ice age.

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Posted by: mini.6018

mini.6018

I like how Op 1st post has zero likes

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Posted by: Heapheaus.5238

Heapheaus.5238

I like how Op 1st post has zero likes

Does it matter? Oh wait, it doesn’t.

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Posted by: Phaeton.9582

Phaeton.9582

Erm warrior suggestions arn’t great, in my unconstructive yet honest opinion.

Except for nefing HS; my middle finger could do with some action again.

Think I’ll leave that sentence as it is, as it’s Christmas.

To all the single guys on Christmas Eve, in no way should you feel bad about reading and/or commenting on balance changes right now. Good luck in the new year, and hopefully you’ll have something better to do for Xmas 2014


Phaatonn, London UK

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Posted by: OlrunTheBlade.1486

OlrunTheBlade.1486

I think what people are missing when he is talking about lowering the base hp/s on healing signet is the fact that it is just the base. If the scaling with healing power is good enough, it allows for as much if not more hp/s when speced for it.

Current: 392+0.05HP per sec
Proposed: 200+0.175HP per sec
392+0.05HP=200+0.175HP
192=0.120HP
1600 HP

So it breaks even with the old healing signet at 1600 healing power.

Cleric’s Amulet gives 923 healing power. You can get 300 from traits, 250 from Life sigils, and 165 from runes. If you go fully into healing power to an insane degree, then you barely cross that at 1638. Even on my bunker warrior I don’t go for that much healing power, plus it relies on those Life stacks to get that. The proposed change is a flat out nerf.

Also, it breaks even with 1130 Healing Power, not 1600. please revise your math before embarrassing yourself further.

Let’s see. With the new scaling, at 1130 healing power, it would be 200 + (0.175)(1130) health per second. That’s 200 + 197.75, or 398. The current base is 392. Now, does that even make sense? No. It actually breaks even at exactly 1536. I just didn’t carry over the 0.005 scaling factor for some reason.

Captain of Never Lucky [NL]
Competitive Warrior, Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Engineer, Thief

(edited by OlrunTheBlade.1486)

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Posted by: OlrunTheBlade.1486

OlrunTheBlade.1486

Current: 392+0.05HP per sec
Proposed: 200+0.175HP per sec
392+0.05HP=200+0.175HP
192=0.125HP
1536 HP

There’s the correct math. No need to be an kitten about a typo.

Captain of Never Lucky [NL]
Competitive Warrior, Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Engineer, Thief

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Posted by: Acandis.3250

Acandis.3250

In any case, the signet (as well as many other signets) need major revision.

I don’t think warriors should have the amount of regen that they currently have access to.

I would change the passive to 250 + (0.075) and the active to 4,250 + (0.7), while reducing the activation time to 0.75s.

That would make it so that at no healing power, this isn’t absurdly overpowered and it’s still worth it to use the active (though you’ll lose 3 ticks worth of healing—untraited, gain 1 if traited) if you’re in a pinch. And and high healing power, you get much more HP/s (still not as absurdly overpowered as it is now), with some dimishing returns.

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Posted by: Rarnark.5623

Rarnark.5623

Oh, and while we’re at it – balancing a game around the needs of the top 0.1% of the playerbase is an incredibly stupid way to run a business.

I disagree. A pvp game should be balanced around the highest levels of competitive play.

Spirit Bae
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Posted by: Qaelyn.7612

Qaelyn.7612

Oh, and while we’re at it – balancing a game around the needs of the top 0.1% of the playerbase is an incredibly stupid way to run a business.

I disagree. A pvp game should be balanced around the highest levels of competitive play.

Why?

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Posted by: Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046

I would suggets visiting the necro subforum before suggesting nerfs.
And considering high level players can influence anet more then an entire professions community.

I would rethink your suggestions.

54 infractions and counting because a moderator doesn’t understand a joke when he/she sees it.
E.A.D.

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Posted by: Empathetic Fighter.2065

Empathetic Fighter.2065

More or less I agree with everything. I like the consideration of fixing “hardcounters” like zerk-stance or diamond-skin and decrease damage. Also your notes would be a good start to finally eliminating all the passiveness in this game, which was the main reason for the failure of PvP.

Read It Backwards [BooN]

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Posted by: Empathetic Fighter.2065

Empathetic Fighter.2065

Oh, and while we’re at it – balancing a game around the needs of the top 0.1% of the playerbase is an incredibly stupid way to run a business.

I disagree. A pvp game should be balanced around the highest levels of competitive play.

Why?

As an example, GW1 was balanced around top-tier (development worked together with [rawr]) and it was a lot more successfull than its follower.
Top-tier players can achieve a level of experience, which a casual will never have. A top-tier player is able to push a class/the game to a maximum and can show the full potential of it.

Read It Backwards [BooN]

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Posted by: Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Oh, and while we’re at it – balancing a game around the needs of the top 0.1% of the playerbase is an incredibly stupid way to run a business.

I disagree. A pvp game should be balanced around the highest levels of competitive play.

Why?

As an example, GW1 was balanced around top-tier (development worked together with [rawr]) and it was a lot more successfull than its follower.
Top-tier players can achieve a level of experience, which a casual will never have. A top-tier player is able to push a class/the game to a maximum and can show the full potential of it.

times are different now.
guild wars 2 is a casual game. remember that.

the needs and wants of casual players must be taken care of first, above others.
the 10 december 2013 patch should have told you that, no?
25 skill points for a new heal skill.
gold rewards.
glory removed.
etc.

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Posted by: DoYourBestBear.6810

DoYourBestBear.6810

Current: 392+0.05HP per sec
Proposed: 200+0.175HP per sec
392+0.05HP=200+0.175HP
192=0.125HP
1536 HP

There’s the correct math. No need to be an kitten about a typo.

I’m going to need you to stop posting numbers in such a haphazard way, please.

Proposed
Healing Signet – Passive tick of 200 with a coefficient scale with healing power of 0.175
Passive tick = 200 + (0.175 x healing power)

Of course the active portion of the skill will need to be addressed to compensate, but the base active heal will be closer to 4000 with a healing power coefficient of 0.005

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Posted by: Empathetic Fighter.2065

Empathetic Fighter.2065

Oh, and while we’re at it – balancing a game around the needs of the top 0.1% of the playerbase is an incredibly stupid way to run a business.

I disagree. A pvp game should be balanced around the highest levels of competitive play.

Why?

As an example, GW1 was balanced around top-tier (development worked together with [rawr]) and it was a lot more successfull than its follower.
Top-tier players can achieve a level of experience, which a casual will never have. A top-tier player is able to push a class/the game to a maximum and can show the full potential of it.

times are different now.
guild wars 2 is a casual game. remember that.

the needs and wants of casual players must be taken care of first, above others.
the 10 december 2013 patch should have told you that, no?
25 skill points for a new heal skill.
gold rewards.
glory removed.
etc.

Rewards and balance are not the same. My post answeres in reference to balance, therefore read carefully next time. You talk about rewards in your answer, and totally missed my point.
Again: Balance should be made around top-tier, where rewards and all other things like game-modes etc. should be made for the bright masses.

Read It Backwards [BooN]

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Posted by: Qaelyn.7612

Qaelyn.7612

As an example, GW1 was balanced around top-tier (development worked together with [rawr]) and it was a lot more successfull than its follower.
Top-tier players can achieve a level of experience, which a casual will never have. A top-tier player is able to push a class/the game to a maximum and can show the full potential of it.

I don’t really care about GW1. Never played it, and it’s history. I also dispute your claim that it was “a lot more successful”.

Why should gameplay be oriented around the top 0.1% in this game?

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Posted by: Empathetic Fighter.2065

Empathetic Fighter.2065

As an example, GW1 was balanced around top-tier (development worked together with [rawr]) and it was a lot more successfull than its follower.
Top-tier players can achieve a level of experience, which a casual will never have. A top-tier player is able to push a class/the game to a maximum and can show the full potential of it.

I don’t really care about GW1. Never played it, and it’s history. I also dispute your claim that it was “a lot more successful”.

Why should gameplay be oriented around the top 0.1% in this game?

Balance NOT gameplay. Two totally different words. Dispute my claim is your right, however not really reliable, as you never played GW1.

Read It Backwards [BooN]

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Posted by: mini.6018

mini.6018

If signet gets nerfed hammer bow and mace nerfs should be reverted .No reason to have no healing no range no cc and no damage as a class.Also all mobility skill should get fixed and immobilize bug adressed because without hs warriors will rely on killig targets in under 30 seconds wich is impossible in the current weapon state compared to all other classes because of kiting and melee/cc dependence.

Warrior was less than useless before hs buff exactly for that being the only class in the game that has to actually sacrifice hp for getting into dps range (melee) and without protection sources.

Before that even in wvw a warrior had to constantly reset a fight using gs because lack of heal and hp needed to stay on target also paired with the huge problem that melee hits are barely20% as effective as ranged if the tarhet is not cced, immobilized unlike other classes that can spam telepirt attacks, from range, stealth or aoe.

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Posted by: Qaelyn.7612

Qaelyn.7612

Dispute my claim is your right, however not really reliable, as you never played GW1.

GW1 is irrelevant. Someone said GW2 should be balanced around the top levels of competition, and I’m still waiting for some rationale why.

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

Dispute my claim is your right, however not really reliable, as you never played GW1.

GW1 is irrelevant. Someone said GW2 should be balanced around the top levels of competition, and I’m still waiting for some rationale why.

Because in order to make the game self-sustainable, you need a competitive scene motivated to play the game no matters what happens.

You may say " well in that case you can motivate all players to play equally and then the game will eventually be sustainable".

Nope.

If you want a PvP game ( or the PvP part of the game) to succeed, you need hihg level competition, seasons, sponsors and viewership, otherwise you’ll fail.

Recent Mistleague departure shows it: without proper back up of the aforementioned things, you can’t afford to make custom leagues, because there will be no interest.

This is the major reason.

And the second major reason is that scrubs have no idea how to make a game good and enjoyable: scrubs will balance the game toward power creeping it as much as possible, then feeling superheroes for a couple of months before leaving the game to its disaster, migrating toward another game to ruin.

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Posted by: mini.6018

mini.6018

Dispute my claim is your right, however not really reliable, as you never played GW1.

GW1 is irrelevant. Someone said GW2 should be balanced around the top levels of competition, and I’m still waiting for some rationale why.

Because in order to make the game self-sustainable, you need a competitive scene motivated to play the game no matters what happens.

You may say " well in that case you can motivate all players to play equally and then the game will eventually be sustainable".

Nope.

If you want a PvP game ( or the PvP part of the game) to succeed, you need hihg level competition, seasons, sponsors and viewership, otherwise you’ll fail.

Recent Mistleague departure shows it: without proper back up of the aforementioned things, you can’t afford to make custom leagues, because there will be no interest.

This is the major reason.

And the second major reason is that scrubs have no idea how to make a game good and enjoyable: scrubs will balance the game toward power creeping it as much as possible, then feeling superheroes for a couple of months before leaving the game to its disaster, migrating toward another game to ruin.

Gw2 will never be a competitive game .They need to do everything in their power to keep the casual crowd though.

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Posted by: Empathetic Fighter.2065

Empathetic Fighter.2065

Dispute my claim is your right, however not really reliable, as you never played GW1.

GW1 is irrelevant. Someone said GW2 should be balanced around the top levels of competition, and I’m still waiting for some rationale why.

Mrbig gave you already an input. Also the example that A-Net is balancing the game around casuals is the proof it doesn’t work out, not in such a complex game.

I’ve never seen such easy-to-play-builds in any other game, which can be learnt in 1 day and can be played successfull on a high-level. I really don’t understand what’s so hard to understand.

Read It Backwards [BooN]

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Posted by: Qaelyn.7612

Qaelyn.7612

I understand the argument. I guess I just see an equally viable one, that what happens on the very high end affects only a tiny percentage of players and so it makes more sense from a business standpoint not to orient the game around them.

Especially a game like this one that is intended to be easy to pick up.

What you call “scrubs” Arenanet calls “paying customers”. The top 100 PvPers aren’t any more important to the bottom line than any other 100 players. I’m not saying their needs should be ignored, just not prioritized.

Specifically, making game balance decisions in a casual game that tick off 10,000+ players because of game balance issues that affect 100 players is bad management. Many of the proposed changes in this thread fall into that category.

Most GW2 players aren’t interested in PvP for reasons that have nothing to do with fine-tuning class balance at the highest levels.

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Posted by: cymerdown.4103

cymerdown.4103

Current: 392+0.05HP per sec
Proposed: 200+0.175HP per sec
392+0.05HP=200+0.175HP
192=0.125HP
1536 HP

There’s the correct math. No need to be an kitten about a typo.

I’m going to need you to stop posting numbers in such a haphazard way, please.

Proposed
Healing Signet – Passive tick of 200 with a coefficient scale with healing power of 0.175
Passive tick = 200 + (0.175 x healing power)

Of course the active portion of the skill will need to be addressed to compensate, but the base active heal will be closer to 4000 with a healing power coefficient of 0.005

Yo Bear, there’s nothing wrong with his post. What he’s doing is figuring out at what value of Healing Power do the two passives give you the same amount of healing. To do that, he just did the basic algebra thing of setting the two heals equal to each other and then he solved for Healing Power. To check his work, just plug his answer to both sides of the equation.

392 + 0.05(1536) =? 200 + 0.175(1536)
392 + 76.8 =? 200 + 268.8
468.8 = 468.8

So, at 1536 Healing Power, both passives will heal the player for 468.8 HP per second. Below that, the old passive will heal for more, and above that, the new one will.

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Posted by: mini.6018

mini.6018

Dispute my claim is your right, however not really reliable, as you never played GW1.

GW1 is irrelevant. Someone said GW2 should be balanced around the top levels of competition, and I’m still waiting for some rationale why.

Mrbig gave you already an input. Also the example that A-Net is balancing the game around casuals is the proof it doesn’t work out, not in such a complex game.

I’ve never seen such easy-to-play-builds in any other game, which can be learnt in 1 day and can be played successfull on a high-level. I really don’t understand what’s so hard to understand.

Other games have only 8 skills ? All gw2 is easy to play.

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Posted by: OlrunTheBlade.1486

OlrunTheBlade.1486

Current: 392+0.05HP per sec
Proposed: 200+0.175HP per sec
392+0.05HP=200+0.175HP
192=0.125HP
1536 HP

There’s the correct math. No need to be an kitten about a typo.

I’m going to need you to stop posting numbers in such a haphazard way, please.

Proposed
Healing Signet – Passive tick of 200 with a coefficient scale with healing power of 0.175
Passive tick = 200 + (0.175 x healing power)

Of course the active portion of the skill will need to be addressed to compensate, but the base active heal will be closer to 4000 with a healing power coefficient of 0.005

Current healing at 1536 healing power: 392 + (0.05)(1536) = 392 + 76.8 = 468.8
Proposed healing at 1536 healing power: 200 + (0.175)(1536) = 200 + 268.8 = 468.8

Captain of Never Lucky [NL]
Competitive Warrior, Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Engineer, Thief

(edited by OlrunTheBlade.1486)

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Posted by: Chaith.8256

Chaith.8256

I understand the argument. I guess I just see an equally viable one, that what happens on the very high end affects only a tiny percentage of players and so it makes more sense from a business standpoint not to orient the game around them.

Especially a game like this one that is intended to be easy to pick up.

What you call “scrubs” Arenanet calls “paying customers”. The top 100 PvPers aren’t any more important to the bottom line than any other 100 players. I’m not saying their needs should be ignored, just not prioritized.

Specifically, making game balance decisions in a casual game that tick off 10,000+ players because of game balance issues that affect 100 players is bad management. Many of the proposed changes in this thread fall into that category.

Most GW2 players aren’t interested in PvP for reasons that have nothing to do with fine-tuning class balance at the highest levels.

What makes you think that the BALANCE needs of casual players is different than the BALANCE needs of top players?

You keep going on about the ‘needs’ of the top 100 players and how they’re to blame for the negative experience of casual players, because the top players’ needs are being prioritized over the others.

What happens at the high end does not only affect a tiny percentage of players. All these assumptions you have about balance are more like you’re combining PvP modes, PvP rewards, PvP features AND PvP balance all together. Rewards, modes, and features CAN cater to ‘top players’ more than ‘casual players’ – so I see where you are drawing these conclusions from – but remember this is about skills & balance. They don’t cater to any crowd, unless Arenanet was ignoring the state of balance at various skill levels of PvP, which would be crazy to suggest. If you were paying attention, almost all of the builds that ‘top players’ are advocating be nerfed are the ones that are wreaking havoc on solo q & hotjoins. These builds are setups that turn a terrible player into a superhero. They probably create even more grief at a casual level – top players can almost always overcome the overpowered builds with enough tenacity. It’s the casual players that are encountering these mass produced OP builds and hitting a brick wall, and quitting the game.

So, I hope you see how in BALANCE, the needs and wants of top players and casual players are usually aligned pretty much perfectly.

This is a balance discussion .. Having a stable risk / reward ratio for as many builds as possible, and eliminating the threat of super safe, effective, and easy builds is in everyone’e best interest.

If you can actually provide a flaw in the suggestions where it would only balance the mechanic at a high skill level, but will leave it an unbalanced mess for casual players, then I’m sure the players in this thread will actually listen to you.

I hope you understand where I am coming from, and I hope you understand why you shouldn’t oppose good game balance at all skill levels just because a known PvPer is suggesting them.

Forum Lord Chaith
Twitch.tv/chaithh
New Twitter: @chaithhh

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Posted by: Empathetic Fighter.2065

Empathetic Fighter.2065

I understand the argument. I guess I just see an equally viable one, that what happens on the very high end affects only a tiny percentage of players and so it makes more sense from a business standpoint not to orient the game around them.

Especially a game like this one that is intended to be easy to pick up.

What you call “scrubs” Arenanet calls “paying customers”. The top 100 PvPers aren’t any more important to the bottom line than any other 100 players. I’m not saying their needs should be ignored, just not prioritized.

Specifically, making game balance decisions in a casual game that tick off 10,000+ players because of game balance issues that affect 100 players is bad management. Many of the proposed changes in this thread fall into that category.

The game can be easy to pick up, that’s not the problem when you balance around high-tier. But the skill-ceiling should be high enough to reward dedicated players. That’s what happens in LoL or Smite for example. Any Player can start and have fun, the basics are easy to understand. Play it for a week and you are able to perform well. But at the very high-end players can reach a high level of play, which casuals can’t reach.

This is not possible in GW2. Either you play an easy meta-build like the spirit-ranger or the hambow-warrior and reach the maximal potential of the class after 2-3 days, or you stay on your favorite class, which isn’t in the meta.
I see mesmers with experience of over a year of permanently playing PvP, loosing on-point to a warrior, which has played the class 1 week and is able to perform better than the mesmer. That’s the main problem of the not existing skill-ceiling. These easy-to-play-builds are more effective and worthier than any experience of a player. That’s what happening when you balance around casuals. They don’t have enough experience, but still wanna compete. They have not the knowledge of the skill-ceiling of the classes, which high-tier-players bring.

And that has nothing to do with elitism. This scheme is existing in every Sport. The rules are adapted to the best. In Soccer for example, the casuals (the majority) could say the goal is too small, because they are too bad to shoot precise enough. But the Sport wouldn’t be attractive and competitive anymore with a Goal, that is twice as big. I hope you get what I want to say.

Read It Backwards [BooN]

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Posted by: Chaith.8256

Chaith.8256

Also, it breaks even with 1130 Healing Power, not 1600. please revise your math before embarrassing yourself further.

Current healing at 1536 healing power: 392 + (0.05)(1536) = 392 + 76.8 = 468.8
Proposed healing at 1536 healing power: 200 + (0.175)(1536) = 200 + 268.8 = 468.8

Maybe you should learn to count before trying to correct my math.

Oh, you guys. So cute.

Bear and Acandis are simply calling the ‘break even’ point how much healing power it takes to get the results you previously got with NO healing power. What these guys calculated was the ‘recovery cost’ – how much healing power you need to have in your build to get back to what you had previously, for no requirements.

They should also look up what a ‘break even’ point is. And stop being so snarky.

Kensuda & Olrun, you guys are correct in finding the true ‘break even’ healing power point where both variations of the Healing Signet (actual, and suggested) are giving the same return for the same investment.

Forum Lord Chaith
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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

I understand the argument. I guess I just see an equally viable one, that what happens on the very high end affects only a tiny percentage of players and so it makes more sense from a business standpoint not to orient the game around them.

Especially a game like this one that is intended to be easy to pick up.

What you call “scrubs” Arenanet calls “paying customers”. The top 100 PvPers aren’t any more important to the bottom line than any other 100 players. I’m not saying their needs should be ignored, just not prioritized.

Specifically, making game balance decisions in a casual game that tick off 10,000+ players because of game balance issues that affect 100 players is bad management. Many of the proposed changes in this thread fall into that category.

Most GW2 players aren’t interested in PvP for reasons that have nothing to do with fine-tuning class balance at the highest levels.

Balance decisions could have been handled better, simply aNet made the most whack-a-mole/easy to do things in order to make casuals happy.

There was a time, for example, when D/D thieves were oneshotting everything. From a high end PvP standpoint, it was balanced since you would be never hit by the full combo if you were fast enough to react ( even with unnerfed haste) but it was obscenely Op at low levels.

aNet reaction has been to totally gut off hand dagger and Mug instead of rebalancing the whole combo, gutting quickness into uselessnes ( affecting multiple professions and, as a consequence, power damage efficacy) while buffing conditions and warrior resilience little by little till dumbfire patch ( meanwhile competitive scene already knew necros and wars were already there, they just needed FEW TWEAKS instead of orrendous buffs like they received).

Why did they do such things ? Because “scrubs” were complianing about being instagibbed.

Why did they do it ? Because increasing/deacreasing numbers and adding immunitites is easier than reabalancing a whole profession.

Basically current meta has been “created” by the very part of population you’re trying to defend.

If we’re in such balance hell, it’s due to their " requests", granted by aNet in the laziest/fastest way.

Regarding players not playing PvP, this is not wrong: a PvE player not interested in playing PvP should NEVER play PvP, because if he plays arenas for their rewards instead of playing it because he’s interested, he will simply use the fastest way to obtain them withoiut caring about other players ( skyhammer farming, afking in rated matches and all other obscene things we’ve seen in the recent past).

In a perfect world, PvP should be played by PvPers, just like PvE is played by PvErs.

Again, there was a time when this game had good PvP population: it’s been aNet attitude toward us ( no rewards, gamebreaking bugs kept for months, no FAST balance decisions when something was clearly broken like old S/D cleric ele or thieves hidden hastened HS while in stealth etc..) that drew us off.

Desiring PvE players in PvP is the symptom of how rotten this game’s pvp portion is, and hot difficult it will be for it to recover from past disaster.

Gw2 will never be a competitive game .They need to do everything in their power to keep the casual crowd though.

Doing this will simply derail the game even more.

In businesses, something that may be the best decision in the SHORT TIME may not be the best decision in the long run.

Keeping casuals as the main source of PvP economy surely is not the best decision anyway.

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Posted by: OlrunTheBlade.1486

OlrunTheBlade.1486

Anyway, the most guaranteed healing power you can have on a warrior is 300 from traits, 170 from the Banner of Tactics, 798 from the amulet, 125 from the jewel, and 165 from runes. That totals 1558. I didn’t include life stacks because those aren’t guaranteed. Basically this means you have to spec 100% into healing power to break even with what it was before the nerf. I don’t know a single warrior who uses healing power runes, and few enough use the Banner of Tactics.

It would definitely be a nerf, but then you have to ask whether or not that’s a good thing. Personally, I think that such a change would make it a bit too weak.

Captain of Never Lucky [NL]
Competitive Warrior, Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Engineer, Thief

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Posted by: Qaelyn.7612

Qaelyn.7612

What makes you think that the BALANCE needs of casual players is different than the BALANCE needs of top players?

This thread, in which proposals are being made that top PvP players say would be good for the high-end competitive matches but that more casual players say would be disastrous at lower levels.

You keep going on about the ‘needs’ of the top 100 players and how they’re to blame for the negative experience of casual players, because the top players’ needs are being prioritized over the others.

Didn’t say that.

If you can actually provide a flaw in the suggestions where it would only balance the mechanic at a high skill level, but will leave it an unbalanced mess for casual players, then I’m sure the players in this thread will actually listen to you.

I already did (as did others). To reiterate, off the top of my head, the proposed changes to GS for mesmer would be a disaster, as would the massive nerf to thief initiative regen without restoring the traits that were already nerfed before the base rate was increased.

I hope you understand where I am coming from, and I hope you understand why you shouldn’t oppose good game balance at all skill levels just because a known PvPer is suggesting them.

I don’t oppose them because a “known PVPer” is suggesting them. I oppose them because I think they are bad ideas. In response, I am being told these things are needed at the high levels of competition, which is why I believe there’s a difference.

If we’re in such balance hell, it’s due to their " requests", granted by aNet in the laziest/fastest way.

I certainly agree that some of the tweaks have been very poor, despite very specific feedback. But I also see a lot of disagreement among players about what balance changes would be best, so it’s pretty much ‘easier said than done’.

Regarding players not playing PvP, this is not wrong: a PvE player not interested in playing PvP should NEVER play PvP, because if he plays arenas for their rewards instead of playing it because he’s interested, he will simply use the fastest way to obtain them withoiut caring about other players ( skyhammer farming, afking in rated matches and all other obscene things we’ve seen in the recent past).

I agree. In particular, adding gold rewards and dailies without addressing the matchmaking problems was incredibly poor decision making.

In businesses, something that may be the best decision in the SHORT TIME may not be the best decision in the long run.

Keeping casuals as the main source of PvP economy surely is not the best decision anyway.

Right, but the problem is that this game doesn’t have a reputation as a serious PvP destination. Most players in GW2 don’t PvP because they want to play cooperatively, not competitively. And most of the people who do participate in PvP aren’t at the levels of some of the folks in this thread, and making balance changes that destroy their game experience just means the already tiny PvP population will dwindle further.

Arenanet is not a company of idiots. It’s just a lot easier to claim to have simple solutions to problems on a forum thread than it is to actually implement them.

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Posted by: mini.6018

mini.6018

Current: 392+0.05HP per sec
Proposed: 200+0.175HP per sec
392+0.05HP=200+0.175HP
192=0.125HP
1536 HP

There’s the correct math. No need to be an kitten about a typo.

I’m going to need you to stop posting numbers in such a haphazard way, please.

Proposed
Healing Signet – Passive tick of 200 with a coefficient scale with healing power of 0.175
Passive tick = 200 + (0.175 x healing power)

Of course the active portion of the skill will need to be addressed to compensate, but the base active heal will be closer to 4000 with a healing power coefficient of 0.005

Yo Bear, there’s nothing wrong with his post. What he’s doing is figuring out at what value of Healing Power do the two passives give you the same amount of healing. To do that, he just did the basic algebra thing of setting the two heals equal to each other and then he solved for Healing Power. To check his work, just plug his answer to both sides of the equation.

392 + 0.05(1536) =? 200 + 0.175(1536)
392 + 76.8 =? 200 + 268.8
468.8 = 468.8

So, at 1536 Healing Power, both passives will heal the player for 468.8 HP per second. Below that, the old passive will heal for more, and above that, the new one will.

Q: How much hps does a guardian and engie or ele have at 1536 healing power?As a healbot ?

(edited by mini.6018)

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Posted by: cymerdown.4103

cymerdown.4103

Anyway, the most guaranteed healing power you can have on a warrior is 300 from traits, 170 from the Banner of Tactics, 798 from the amulet, 125 from the jewel, and 165 from runes. That totals 1558. I didn’t include life stacks because those aren’t guaranteed. Basically this means you have to spec 100% into healing power to break even with what it was before the nerf. I don’t know a single warrior who uses healing power runes, and few enough use the Banner of Tactics.

It would definitely be a nerf, but then you have to ask whether or not that’s a good thing. Personally, I think that such a change would make it a bit too weak.

Agree, his nerf would make Healing Signet utterly unusable outside of a cleric bunker build, unless the active was drastically increased. 4k HP per 20 seconds is a pretty terrible rate.

Kensuda (Bunker Guardian)
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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

In businesses, something that may be the best decision in the SHORT TIME may not be the best decision in the long run.

Keeping casuals as the main source of PvP economy surely is not the best decision anyway.

Right, but the problem is that this game doesn’t have a reputation as a serious PvP destination. Most players in GW2 don’t PvP because they want to play cooperatively, not competitively. And most of the people who do participate in PvP aren’t at the levels of some of the folks in this thread, and making balance changes that destroy their game experience just means the already tiny PvP population will dwindle further.

Arenanet is not a company of idiots. It’s just a lot easier to claim to have simple solutions to problems on a forum thread than it is to actually implement them.

again, there was a time when this game was actually competitive and really had a chance to become an E-Sport, a game where landing an immo in order to land thief burst was actually a viable strategy.

If this game has no reputation as a good PvP game is due to those reasons i mentioned before ( slow balance handling, gamebreaking bug left untouched for months, no rewards, no way to estabilish serious competition), not because playerss want to play “cooperatively and not competitively”.

Give guys enough incentives, and they’ll rush their heads in order to preveal.

Soccer is a clear example: success, money, glory, international rewards are these incentives.

I see nothing of these ( and have not seen any of these from realease till now), not even in scale, in Gw2.

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Posted by: OlrunTheBlade.1486

OlrunTheBlade.1486

Bear in mind, mini, that warrior’s get more health per second than just healing signet. Adrenal Health gives (360 + (0.15)(1536))/3 = (360 + 230.4)/3 = 590.4/3 = 196.8 (with 3 bars of adrenaline). Then you can get regeneration from banners, resulting in an additional 130 + (0.125)(1536) = 130 + 192 = 322.

That’s a total of 987.6 healing per second at max.

Captain of Never Lucky [NL]
Competitive Warrior, Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Engineer, Thief

(edited by OlrunTheBlade.1486)

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Posted by: OlrunTheBlade.1486

OlrunTheBlade.1486

Also, a scaling factor of 0.005 is rubbish. That’s 7.68 bonus healing for 1536 healing power. Why even have it scale with healing power at that point…

Captain of Never Lucky [NL]
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Posted by: apt.9184

apt.9184

I agree healing signet needs nerf, but they should really make it so that rifle skills do not kitten cancel when at point blank range so I don’t have to back peddle like a noob with it. Thanks

Lil Apt
L2P deeez nutz

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Posted by: glaphen.5230

glaphen.5230

Hah look at these last 3 posts. These are the people that want to decide balance decisions. Adrenal Health is per 3 second regen so you only actually get 120 per second and every single class has better healing traits. Your rifle wont fire because you are not facing your enemy and if you stop moving it will auto aim for you in the direction of the enemy. If you are any good you could turn with your mouse and still fire at point blank range while moving.

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Posted by: Aeroxe.8140

Aeroxe.8140

Merry Christmas Everyone!

Thief (main), ele, guard
Past member of most teams NA. Retired proleague season 1+2.
http://www.twitch.tv/aeroxe

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Posted by: OlrunTheBlade.1486

OlrunTheBlade.1486

Hah look at these last 3 posts. These are the people that want to decide balance decisions. Adrenal Health is per 3 second regen so you only actually get 120 per second and every single class has better healing traits. Your rifle wont fire because you are not facing your enemy and if you stop moving it will auto aim for you in the direction of the enemy. If you are any good you could turn with your mouse and still fire at point blank range while moving.

Two things: First, you’re right. I’m watching The Hobbit with my brother while I type this up, so I do apologize for any mistakes, but I’m distracted. I just fixed it for you. I have it right in my bunker warrior guide, but just forgot to do that here. Second, I didn’t say anything about deciding balance changes.

Captain of Never Lucky [NL]
Competitive Warrior, Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Engineer, Thief

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Posted by: Qaelyn.7612

Qaelyn.7612

If this game has no reputation as a good PvP game is due to those reasons i mentioned before ( slow balance handling, gamebreaking bug left untouched for months, no rewards, no way to estabilish serious competition), not because playerss want to play “cooperatively and not competitively”.

And I disagree. Because when I have discussions with people outside the PvP community, I get a general negative response that has nothing to do with specifics of the PvP system.

Most people don’t like PvPing because it’s a much more difficult and aggressive form of gaming. And GW2 also has another option that vies for players who like inter-player combat in WvW, which is much more relaxed and has other benefits over PvP.

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

If this game has no reputation as a good PvP game is due to those reasons i mentioned before ( slow balance handling, gamebreaking bug left untouched for months, no rewards, no way to estabilish serious competition), not because playerss want to play “cooperatively and not competitively”.

And I disagree. Because when I have discussions with people outside the PvP community, I get a general negative response that has nothing to do with specifics of the PvP system.

Most people don’t like PvPing because it’s a much more difficult and aggressive form of gaming. And GW2 also has another option that vies for players who like inter-player combat in WvW, which is much more relaxed and has other benefits over PvP.

Again, you’re not getting my point.

This game already HAD, in the past, a good PvP community, without caring about WvWers and PvEers.

Gw2 players that don’t like PvP have no point in playing it, but if aNet had been able to keep old PvPers ( like 6months after release) and let the PvP community grow instead of letting it shrink, this game could have had the potentiality to attract lots of people interested in PvP OUTSIDE the Gw2 players crowd ( most likely from other games, or totally new customers).

Anet, with their decisions, cut this game’s PvP legs.

We don’t want PvErs and WvWers in PvP, they’re, with a good amount of certainty, the cancer which brought all those terrible balance decisions into the game.

I may sound elitist and most probably i am, but this is the truth.

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Posted by: cymerdown.4103

cymerdown.4103

Actually, I had another idea for Lyssa runes. Rather than putting an ICD, which is kinda awkward (I hate having to keep track of hidden cooldowns, especially for such an impactful ability), let’s just nerf the ability a little bit. How about: “You lose 3 conditions and gain 3 random boons (not including Stability) for 5 seconds when you use an elite skill.” If that would be too heavy of a nerf, you could buff the 4-set ability slightly by having it also remove 1 condition when you heal. If done this way, the rune set would be about as strong as it is now for Withdraw/Basi thieves, a sizeable nerf for Warrior with Healing Signet/Signet of Rage, and a small nerf to Mesmers with Ether Feast/Mass Invis.

Kensuda (Bunker Guardian)
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(edited by cymerdown.4103)

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Posted by: Acandis.3250

Acandis.3250

Actually, I had another idea for Lyssa runes. Rather than putting an ICD, which is kinda awkward (I hate having to keep track of hidden cooldowns, especially for such an impactful ability), let’s just nerf the ability a little bit. How about: “You lose 3 conditions and gain 3 random boons (not including Stability) for 5 seconds when you use an elite skill.” If that would be too heavy of a nerf, you could buff the 4-set ability slightly by having it also remove 1 condition when you heal.

I don’t think adding more RNG would benefit anyone. But I like your line of thinking, you’re almost there. I think if instead the (6) bonus was: convert all conditions into boons(max 5s duration) and the (4) bonus was convert a condition into a boon, that would be much more balanced.