Riviére, Select Start, Cmnd Ctrl, Uninteresting Event @ Three Steps Ahead [Oz]
The Bear Document
Hybrid guardian is best guardian.
Discuss.
Hybrid guardian is best guardian.
Discuss.
30/30/0/0/0
Leave 10 out because you are a man.
I prefer my condi guardian, surprises everyone (well, in hot join and solo q anyway). That’s hardcore baby!
Your Offense > Defense bit made me think a bit about how you could run a Bunker Warrior more effectively than this Banner stuff.
Here’s a shout build that might be interesting to try:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-sB0t;1NKVP0Y4JLVQ0;9;6TT9;418918B3;0UJk6;2ZF18ZF183NV
Hammer and Mace would be effective CC. The group condi cleanse would be pretty nuts, and the weakness would be strong enough to prevent quick ganks. You’d have dodge spam, knockbacks for Kyhlo and point capping.
Lol… That 0/0/30/30/10 warrior….
FYI fast hands is the best trait in the game
Also banners are better because you can go from running no stability to running tons, so shouts would require you to build a comp with others granting the stab, further raising the skill floor.
It’s still not as OP as guard though, and that’s fine.
Fast Hands isn’t really required for a Bunker Warrior. I don’t see the point of giving up Last Stand or Merciless Hammer for faster weapon swaps that don’t proc your sigils. Nobody else has 5s weapon swaps, but no sigils proc with that either.. makes them clunky as hell.
I think if a Shout Warrior and Shout Guardian are on the same team, with the former being more aggressive in build than the Guardian, then you’d have a kitten good team fighting setup. Fury, Prot, Stab, Might all over the place? Yummy.
I prefer my condi guardian, surprises everyone (well, in hot join and solo q anyway). That’s hardcore baby!
Yea, you kill people with that one DoT condition you have access to.
p.s. Don’t forget to cover it with blind/immob/vulnerability.
Oh, and while we’re at it – balancing a game around the needs of the top 0.1% of the playerbase is an incredibly stupid way to run a business.
I disagree. A pvp game should be balanced around the highest levels of competitive play.
Why?
Because we are only interested in nash equilibrium, or something closest to it.
Bear,
Your math will mean absolutely nothing if its fueled by an overly biased stance. I’m curious why you passively insist in not showing your “maths”. Just because someone was able to create a linear equation doesn’t mean that it is any more viable than another joe-blow who posts his “feelings”. At the very least, post the math and give us reasoning behind why you chose certain calculations.
I have very little patience for people who propose actual balance changes in this game, since so many people (and I would suspect you too) have no conceptual understanding on dynamic equilibriums – the law of unintended consequences seems to escape so many people. It’s the very reason why I don’t post such things. For most people who do choose to post such threads, I give little attention.
(edited by Chicago Jack.5647)
I prefer my condi guardian, surprises everyone (well, in hot join and solo q anyway). That’s hardcore baby!
Yea, you kill people with that one DoT condition you have access to.
p.s. Don’t forget to cover it with blind/immob/vulnerability.
No need to cover, I can reapply it as fast as you can clear it. Not saying its meta or anything, just that its fun and challanging
Oh, and while we’re at it – balancing a game around the needs of the top 0.1% of the playerbase is an incredibly stupid way to run a business.
I disagree. A pvp game should be balanced around the highest levels of competitive play.
Why?
I have very little patience for people who propose actual balance changes in this game, since so many people (and I would suspect you too) have no conceptual understanding on dynamic equilibriums – the law of unintended consequences seems to escape so many people. It’s the very reason why I don’t post such things. For most people who do choose to post such threads, I give little attention.
I am familiar with the equilibrium(s); the issue you run into is with power creep being so prevalent.
Before I even consider an equilibrium (because of power creep your best decision could be null from the start of an encounter), I consider manifest and latent functions of a decision – which is why my suggestions are 1) specific, 2) marginal, and/or 3) do not matter because some of the suggestions may change things that still won’t ever be considered in a decision making process.
So, the manifest function is clearly an attempt to bring into line those specific entities that are mathematically superior to nearly every option for respective cost(s) and, therein, reduce the extent of power creep, open up build diversity and viability, and, hopefully, potential balance.
The latent function requires looking past the manifest functions, in some regards, because while the initial change may have an intended effect, the unintended effect (after mass player base exploration) could further unbalance the game and create power creep in a different scope.
To limit the potentialities of latent functions, an overwhelming majority of the suggestions are negative rebalances. The decreasing the relative power of entities, only, in a patch – rather than decreasing some and increasing others – the limits the possibilities and potentialities of latent functions and additional power creep or power creep swaps (which we have also seen happen).
To summarize what you attempted to say – decisions should be meaningful and impactful. Making an incorrect or ill-advised decision should have consequences. Unfortunately, due to the extent and nature of power creep in this game, some players are afforded an unusually large number of incorrect decisions before a negative effect is seen. This should not happen.
I like most of the changes to guardian but the making of banish into an instant cast makes me a little wary. I think a charge up before the swing and after you release it takes .5s for the skill to hit would add the same counter play banish has but allow for the new mechanic. You could make a fancy light grow bigger as you charge to indicate to the opponent the amount charged ( you see a giant orb of light around the hammer and you know to GTFO)
The aegis change is needed and a little more health would help guardians not melt to condition builds unless they run a ton on condi removal.
Another thing I did not see covered with necromancers was making the marks easier to read when on the ground. Ideas to fix it could be have each mark have its own color or make them easier to read like symbols which are easy enough to distinguish from one another.
I would love to also see more skills like the idea of the charged banish or just more skills like guardian staff 2, guardian shield 5, and engi shield 4 and 5. These skills add complexity to play.
Light combo fields need their leap and blast finishers moved to condition removal rather than an almost worthless 3s of retal (when compared to other fields).
AI builds should be weakened so they are like guardian spirit weapon builds. Unviable in tournies but usable at a low level in hot joins. Allow them to be the nooby spec that is not as effective as the higher level specs but allow a new player to get into the game and learn a little bit before they have a play the harder specs.
One last thing, the 5 trait in the vitality tree for guardian and the 5 trait in the precision tree for mesmer need to be nerfed. perma vigor should not be rewarded for 5 trait points.
Curie is my smooth Australian sensei.
power creep
[…]
which is why my suggestions are 1) specific, 2) marginal, and/or 3) do not matter because some of the suggestions may change things that still won’t ever be considered in a decision making process.
[…]
those specific entities that are mathematically superior to nearly every option for respective cost(s)
[…]
To limit the potentialities of latent functions, an overwhelming majority of the suggestions are negative rebalances.
[…]
due to the extent and nature of power creep in this game, some players are afforded an unusually large number of incorrect decisions before a negative effect is seen. This should not happen.
Yes there is an underlying, subtle belief that power creep exists – I agree. However, how we deal with it is still very much up in the air. As an example, you ask anyone in the top spots what should be done with S/D thief and you will get vastly varying answers from: Make d offhand better to introduce better initiative managment, require that you must hit with flanking strike to trigger larcenous strike, the infamous reduce the number of dodges an S/D thief has, reduce the tracking ability of flanking strike so it isn’t so much of a gap closer, and I’m sure there are others out there. Anet has decided to go with a cast time on sword 2 mixed with initiative reduction and boon stripping reduction. Jumper has expressed his distaste with the change to sword 2 as it significantly reduces some of the more advanced plays you can make with S/D, however people like Helseth are overjoyed with the change because they want to see S/D die in a fire. Is there a better solution out there? I don’t know, and I suspect most people don’t.
Just because you’re perspective changes are 1, 2, and 3, doesn’t mean they will not have significant negative impacts on the game.
Just because certain builds/team compositions are dominant solutions does not mean that they need to be nerfed; D/P trickery + home defender is one of the best sources, and a great example, of solid teamwork in this game – something that should be encouraged. In GW1, Warrior, Ranger, Mesmer, Monk, and Ele were all considered very strong classes/team compositions, but they needed no changes to them. Do I think certain builds/team compositions need to be touched on in GW2? Certainly, but how we address these changes is a whole other matter and its simply not a case where you can just say, “well these builds are superior, so we need to reduce their impact in the game.”
Just because they are negative rebalances does not mean that it will reduce the impact of unintended consequences. That’s silly pants.
The biggest problem in this game is the significant lack of teamwork needed to pull off a win. There are some major exceptions to this rule, but the core locus of the problem is the lack of teamwork needed to win. In other words, “cheese mode” is prevalent. But again, how we introduce more of this important playstyle is still very much up in the air, and I’m sorry but I don’t think your suggestions should be taken very seriously.
Cheese mode is indicative of power creep – heads up.
Balancing in a singular direction – i.e. overall nerfs, rather than buffs and nerfs – can, and will, reduce the frequency with which power creep rears its encroachment and reduce the frequency with which large swaths of relative power ebb and flow.
One of the first things listed was eliminating immobilize stacking. This was one of the functions added to the game in recent patches that not only eliminated an element of team work, but made some classes relatively stronger as a result – power creep.
Additionally, to get you back on track – this post and thread was for specific suggestions on balance, not necessarily global perspectives. If you have anything specific to mention, I’d be more than likely to engage in that conversation.
Power creep… it’s such a popular term to throw around on forums. Let’s really unpack the term and make sure we know what we’re talking about.
If there really is overall power creep in the game, that means that today’s top of the line, most powerful builds in the game are overall more powerful than the best specs in the game used to be.
Are we really saying that today’s Spirit Ranger and Healing Signet Warrior are more powerful than block bug Guardian and Haste D/D instagib Thief? Dhuumfire condi Necro more powerful than the old Time Warp Lich Form power Necro? Confounding Suggestions Mesmer better than 25 Might instakill shatter? Because that’s what you mean when you say power creep. IMO, the best specs are overall lower in power than before (dying in less than 1 second is very rare now when it was sort of commonplace in the old 100% quickness days), but other specs that were unplayable before are being pushed up to meet this level. Power is being added, but only in places that sorely need it. That’s not power creep, that’s trying to reach an equilibrium.
Ken,
I’m going to open my notebook shortly and respond to your post.
Ken,
I’m going to open my notebook shortly and respond to your post.
kitten just got real.
Ken,
I’m going to open my notebook shortly and respond to your post.
kitten just got real.
Player name “Countless” http://www.youtube.com/BringYourFriends
http://www.Twitch.tv/BringYourFriends
http://www.Twitch.tv/BringYourFriends
Sure, if you can convince me that today’s top builds wouldn’t get stomped by the builds possible at this time last year, I’m all ears. If you wanna read off a bunch of buffs to various things and gloss over the nerfs to the actual bugs/OP stuff, I’m not sure you’d be proving a relevant point.
^
Again there is GOOD power-creep and BAD power-creep. Good power creep is when you increase the skill cap and maintain the skill floor.
A good example of what a good power creep would have been would be Warrior having three weapon swaps instead of Signet or Berserker stance.
Bad power-creep on the other hand is… as I’ve said “nine-lives time-out” mechanics such as Berserker Stance, Signet. Or in other words, the easy way out because “I’m not innovative at balancing this game” type of balancing from the devs.
ANET has to resort to bad power-creep because “it takes too much time” to program something that would spice things up and make things more interesting instead of making things anti-fun or annoying to deal with.
I mean look at how dumb this game is right now, everyone’s just building tanky so they can play for a “time-out” win instead of actually killing people.
Don’t even get me started on how ANET’s power creep killed MANY power builds. With the sad exception of Power Warrior, which is the only class that can deal with Weakness or Blind spams to secure burst, borderline the dumbest class in the game when the Warrior’s team mates get rid of stability or protection for him.
Even when Warrior was UP, the power meta was the most fun meta because if a player was BAD, he had to push.
Yeah, I’m not saying that balancing has been perfect, either. There have been specs that have been over-balanced lately (dhuumfire Necro, spirit Ranger, Healing Signet Warrior). But, that’s just over-balanced relative to the other builds that are good right now. In future patches, that will be toned down, and other stuff that’s currently poopy will be tweaked up. Repeatedly buffing the bad stuff and nerfing the good stuff will hopefully end us up in a place where a lot of builds are roughly equal in strength (we are already sort of getting there IMO), and then maybe we can all relax, hug each other, and enjoy the esports. :P
Ken,
I’m going to open my notebook shortly and respond to your post.
kitten just got real.
LOL
Phaatonn, London UK
Additionally, to get you back on track – this post and thread was for specific suggestions on balance, not necessarily global perspectives. If you have anything specific to mention, I’d be more than likely to engage in that conversation.
The problem, bear, is that balance inherently involves “global perspectives”. Neglecting this is the very reason why we see such B.S. get played, or even certain classes simply unplayable. Leave the balancing to anet, and (more importantly) to the alpha testers.
I don’t know who the alpha testers are, but from what I’ve heard from people like Super, the pool is relatively low-skilled. I’d much rather have a better representative testing the proposed new changes over anyone on the forums writing a 1 full page “manifesto” balance thread.
In my mind, the best forum-goers can do to contribute constructively to balance is say stuff like “There is too much spam, do something about that.” Anything specific devolves into a cloudy mess.
(edited by Chicago Jack.5647)
This is not a manifesto nor do I ignore the global perspective.
Yeah, I’m not saying that balancing has been perfect, either. There have been specs that have been over-balanced lately (dhuumfire Necro, spirit Ranger, Healing Signet Warrior). But, that’s just over-balanced relative to the other builds that are good right now. In future patches, that will be toned down, and other stuff that’s currently poopy will be tweaked up. Repeatedly buffing the bad stuff and nerfing the good stuff will hopefully end us up in a place where a lot of builds are roughly equal in strength (we are already sort of getting there IMO), and then maybe we can all relax, hug each other, and enjoy the esports. :P
Doubt. I do agree with you in most of what you said but the ratio in which OP stuff gets toned down and UP stuff gets slightly toned up is quite slow. Plus without an actual and proper balance and not just adding “small power creeps” this game will be and quite honestly is already not fun enough to be played nor WATCHED. Therefore it’ll never make it to competitive ewspawrts.
The way they’re balancing is something like: “ok Healing signet is strong… we tone this a little bit down and add healing signets to all classes” sort-of-balance is just really adding passive “small” power creeps… which are completely lame and unfun to play really.
Riviére, Select Start, Cmnd Ctrl, Uninteresting Event @ Three Steps Ahead [Oz]
I’d like to see the numbers with the suggested changes. As far as i’m concerned,(Guardian perspective) the only change I see worth looking at would be the Renewed Focus duration increase. I love ya bear but the rest honestly don’t make much sense to me.
I like a lot of OP’s changes. It would be nice to have one solid patch focused on real nerfs and then return to the counter-balancing principle that predominated patches throughout 2013.
Regarding Signet of Spite, 50% duration nerf seems harsh. Instead: 20% duration nerf, increase cast time by 0.25s. Increased cast time = more counterplay = reward skilled opponents = punish less skilled opponents
Cyyrix | Marypoppins Deathsquad [mds] | Team Riot [RIOT] | Blackgate
We need to start with a few overviews here on account of some confusion during some of the discussions that have taken place.
Power creep is the slow, and often missed, unbalancing of a game. Elements of power creep can be seen when huge shifts in relative power occur and, specific to Guild Wars 2, is most noticeable when specific classes are near-unplayable in a particular meta. Moreover, huge shifts in power usually occur in two ways: incrementally as results of various rebalances (i.e. nerf versus buff) or when larger changes to mechanical functions occur.
Skill and trait balance requires that no combination is overpowered relative to other combinations in such a fashion that they become a mainstay, necessary, and unstoppable (or near unstoppable) as a view of counterplay options. Balance requires that there be advantages sought in particular builds but also disadvantages that provide for both build variability, viability, and counterplay options as evidenced by both relative skill floors and ceilings.
Additionally, incomparables are those skills and traits that are so vastly different from each other that a comparison between the two amounts to a comparison between apples and oranges – in this case it’s more like a comparison of Fear Me and Shadow Step. The relative power of the skills depends on the scenario in which they are employed, how they are utilized, and the skill of the player. Balancing incomparables does employ math but also needs to be accompanied with an analysis of the relating game mechanic that makes it incomparable to other skills.
As a further investigation of what constitutes an incomparable, I mentioned both Fear Me and Shadow Step. Fear Me involves two game mechanics: Fear as a control effect (that is also a condition) and that it is unblockable. Shadow Step also involves two game mechanics: teleportation and the breaking of control effects.
So, there are a few components that go into both the perception of potential power creep, but also judging whether or not it exists.
Power creep is the interaction between the natural evolution of the tools available versus whether or not previous tool are obsolete or remain viable versus the creation and/or maintenance of choice opportunities that still matter with regards to judging incomparables and how those incomparables can increase skill caps. When power creep begins to appear a couple of things accompany it: stale and predictable meta-builds and rock/paper/scissor-style match ups that favor build versus build rather than skill versus skill – relatively speaking.
Our first example of power creep is the warrior, unsurprisingly. The build under examination is the longbow/hammer/healing signet/fear me/berserker stance/balanced stance and involves, at least, 20 trait points in defense and 30 trait points in discipline.
Let’s examine the updates:
17 September 2012
Smoldering Arrow: This skill’s casting time has been reduced.
December 14, 2012
Hammer Shock: This skill can now be used while moving.
Increased the velocity of arrows fired from Longbow skills by 30%.
February 26, 2013
Smoldering Arrow: This ability is now a full projectile finisher.
Healing Signet: Reduced low-level healing for this signet without changing healing at higher levels. This signet now heals for 12 points at level 2 instead of 25 and then scales up to heal for 200 points at level 80
April 30, 2013
Added new Adept major trait, Defense (II): Dogged March—Incoming immobilize, chill, and cripple conditions are reduced by 33%. Gain 3 seconds of regeneration when you are crippled, chilled, or immobilized. This effect can trigger only once every 10 seconds. This trait replaces Turtle’s Defense.
Added new Grandmaster major trait, Discipline (XII): Destruction of the Empowered—Damage is increased by 3% per unique boon on the warrior’s target.
Quick Bursts and Adrenal Reserves traits: Combined into one trait, Burst Mastery (XI).
June 25th, 2013
Skull Crack: Increased the stun duration from 1, 1.5, 2 to 1, 2, 3. Increased the damage by 50%
Endure Pain: Reduced the recharge from 90 seconds to 60 seconds.
Dolyak Signet: This is now an instant stun breaker.
Berserker’s Stance: Increased the recharge to 60 seconds. Reduced the duration to 4 seconds. This stance now reduces incoming condition duration by 100%, so only modified conditions can get through.
Balanced Stance: This now also applies swiftness.
Hammer Shock: Reduced the aftercast by .4 seconds.
Staggering Blow: Reduced the aftercast by .25 seconds.
Backbreaker: Reduced the aftercast by .25 seconds.
Crushing Blow: Reduced the aftercast by .2 seconds.
“Fear Me!”: Reduced the recharge to 60 seconds.
Adrenal Health: This trait now scales with healing power:
Cleansing Ire: New Master tier trait with the following effects: Gain adrenaline when hit. Remove a condition for every bar of adrenaline spent
July 9th , 2013
Berserker Stance: The duration of this skill has been increased from 4 to 8 seconds.
July 23rd, 2013
Healing Signet (Passive): Reworked the formula that this passive heal uses. At level 80, this skill goes from 392 healing per 3 seconds to 467 healing per 3 seconds with 1500 healing power.
October 15, 2013
Staggering Blow: This skill can now be used while moving. Reduced the cast time to 0.5 seconds.
December 10, 2013
Combustive Shot: Increased the pulse duration to 3 seconds. Increased the burn duration per pulse to 3 seconds.
I did not have the notation of when Destruction of the Empowered was lowered to master tier, but that was also a relative buff in power. Overall, there is an inherent increase in both relative survivability and damage potential. Additionally, the increases in relative power of the build occurred in several aspects of game mechanics – control effects, conditions, resistance to control effects, resistance to conditions, and mathematical increases measured damage per second potentials.
The ability to measure the progression of each class and each class relative to the notion of power creep is not only incredibly possible, but necessary to track in order to balance the game.
When you map out the progression of other classes with regards to balance, there is a clear track to where we are now in the game, in terms of balance, and where balance potential existed in previous patches – as a whole and with individual classes.
As rough examples of class progression we have the following:
Elementalist – overall net decrease in survivability/highest volume of stealth nerfs
Thief – complete reliance on the critical strikes trait line for tournament-viable builds
Guardian – pigeon-holed role in terms of tournament viability (despite unnecessary buffs to DPS guard structures)
Ranger – complete reliance on the Wilderness Survival trait line for tournament viable builds/survivability
Warrior – overall net increase in both survivability and damage potential
Necromancer – convergence of several different build variations resulting in one true condition build
Mesmer – requires Deceptive Evasion for viability
Engineer – I’m really tired right now.
“Necromancer – convergence of several different build variations resulting in one true condition build”
Question.. what other builds? what variety? imho the Dhuumb condi build is way to zerky to be considered necromancy or in line with anet’s vision of the profession.
I think the necro hardly had powercreep and basicly is used like a ping pong ball by dev’s as an afterthought. “crap guys we forgot the necro again” lets add a mad condition trait to pigeon hole the condi build.
What most necromancers what is well functioning traits, mechanics, tooltips and smooth workings of our skills/lockout.
A logical function of skills:
-Reworking axe #3 to have a blast finisher (feels natural and sounds logic)
-Having leech in DS actually leech hp.
-WoC to convert more then one boon upon cast/entry then one per pulse.
-WoB to convert more then one condition upon cast/entry then one per pulse.
-No lockout of utilities when leaving transform.
-Sustain trough DS/overflow of damage to be maxed to a certain amount of HP. (tooltip)
-A clear overview of conditions, hp, UI on transform.
-Corrupt boon to convert all boons on an enemy (not this happy go lucky stuff)
-Make retaliation something that actually works for necros, we have many ways to get retal trough traits yet all are pretty useless since retal was gutted.
-Make blind reapply faster when inside a well when they are blasted.
-Stop transforms from being a totally different combat state/stance and have traits buff’s/ conditions/ signets synergize with these transforms.
-A logical order of cleanse and condition application.
-Fear to interrupt.
-Working combat log / or solve the mystery of full hp full ds instagibs.
These suggestions/wants are pretty logic when you play necromancer for a long time.
There are many mechanics and traits that need a workover for necro as does the whole profession imo.
PS: I like the clear outline of powercreep and enjoy your posts immensly. ^^
happy newyear!
54 infractions and counting because a moderator doesn’t understand a joke when he/she sees it.
E.A.D.
E.A.D.
Previous to the introduction of Dhuumfire, condi builds going into the spite line where usually only for Spinal Shivers – freeing up anywhere from 10 to 30 trait points.
Ok, so Warrior got a bunch of buffs to things that people didn’t use until recently. In fact, people basically didn’t use the Warrior at all in PvP until after June 25th. Sounds like a class that needed buffs got them. Too many, granted, but it will continue to get toned down.
Power creep is when you keep buffing all specs so that an overall higher level of power is achieved. This could happen if you keep buffing things to the level of the currently most powerful build. For example, it would be power creep if we now gave the Necro more access to Stability to counter the Warrior, and then gave Mesmer additional boon strip to counter the Necro’s extra Stability, and then gave Guardian a way to be immune to boon stripping to counter the extra boon strip that Mesmer just got. Etcetera.
(edited by cymerdown.4103)
It’s a bit further than that in terms of power creep. There is a distinct type of r/p/s right now in terms of build versus build with very few builds being relegated to skill versus skill without an uneven match up or inherent build strengths.
Anytime a game devolves into r/p/s that is power creep. The only outlier in r/p/s is player skill but the discrepancy needs to be huge in order to account of the uphill battle either way.
Our first example of power creep is the warrior, unsurprisingly. The build under examination is the longbow/hammer/healing signet/fear me/berserker stance/balanced stance and involves, at least, 20 trait points in defense and 30 trait points in discipline.
Let’s examine the updates:
17 September 2012
Smoldering Arrow: This skill’s casting time has been reduced.
December 14, 2012
Hammer Shock: This skill can now be used while moving.Increased the velocity of arrows fired from Longbow skills by 30%.
February 26, 2013
Smoldering Arrow: This ability is now a full projectile finisher.
Healing Signet: Reduced low-level healing for this signet without changing healing at higher levels. This signet now heals for 12 points at level 2 instead of 25 and then scales up to heal for 200 points at level 80
April 30, 2013
Added new Adept major trait, Defense (II): Dogged March—Incoming immobilize, chill, and cripple conditions are reduced by 33%. Gain 3 seconds of regeneration when you are crippled, chilled, or immobilized. This effect can trigger only once every 10 seconds. This trait replaces Turtle’s Defense.
Added new Grandmaster major trait, Discipline (XII): Destruction of the Empowered—Damage is increased by 3% per unique boon on the warrior’s target.
Quick Bursts and Adrenal Reserves traits: Combined into one trait, Burst Mastery (XI).
June 25th, 2013
Skull Crack: Increased the stun duration from 1, 1.5, 2 to 1, 2, 3. Increased the damage by 50%
Endure Pain: Reduced the recharge from 90 seconds to 60 seconds.
Dolyak Signet: This is now an instant stun breaker.
Berserker’s Stance: Increased the recharge to 60 seconds. Reduced the duration to 4 seconds. This stance now reduces incoming condition duration by 100%, so only modified conditions can get through.
Balanced Stance: This now also applies swiftness.
Hammer Shock: Reduced the aftercast by .4 seconds.
Staggering Blow: Reduced the aftercast by .25 seconds.
Backbreaker: Reduced the aftercast by .25 seconds.
Crushing Blow: Reduced the aftercast by .2 seconds.
“Fear Me!”: Reduced the recharge to 60 seconds.
Adrenal Health: This trait now scales with healing power:
Cleansing Ire: New Master tier trait with the following effects: Gain adrenaline when hit. Remove a condition for every bar of adrenaline spentJuly 9th , 2013
Berserker Stance: The duration of this skill has been increased from 4 to 8 seconds.July 23rd, 2013
Healing Signet (Passive): Reworked the formula that this passive heal uses. At level 80, this skill goes from 392 healing per 3 seconds to 467 healing per 3 seconds with 1500 healing power.October 15, 2013
Staggering Blow: This skill can now be used while moving. Reduced the cast time to 0.5 seconds.
December 10, 2013
Combustive Shot: Increased the pulse duration to 3 seconds. Increased the burn duration per pulse to 3 seconds.I did not have the notation of when Destruction of the Empowered was lowered to master tier, but that was also a relative buff in power. Overall, there is an inherent increase in both relative survivability and damage potential. Additionally, the increases in relative power of the build occurred in several aspects of game mechanics – control effects, conditions, resistance to control effects, resistance to conditions, and mathematical increases measured damage per second potentials.
The ability to measure the progression of each class and each class relative to the notion of power creep is not only incredibly possible, but necessary to track in order to balance the game.
When you map out the progression of other classes with regards to balance, there is a clear track to where we are now in the game, in terms of balance, and where balance potential existed in previous patches – as a whole and with individual classes.
As rough examples of class progression we have the following:
Elementalist – overall net decrease in survivability/highest volume of stealth nerfs
Thief – complete reliance on the critical strikes trait line for tournament-viable builds
Guardian – pigeon-holed role in terms of tournament viability (despite unnecessary buffs to DPS guard structures)
Ranger – complete reliance on the Wilderness Survival trait line for tournament viable builds/survivability
Warrior – overall net increase in both survivability and damage potential
Necromancer – convergence of several different build variations resulting in one true condition build
Mesmer – requires Deceptive Evasion for viability
Engineer – I’m really tired right now.
Warrior – complete dependency on cleansing ire to be viable. And warrior damage has been nerfed in the last patches. You should post that too.
Anytime a game devolves into r/p/s that is power creep.
Uh, no. I have no idea why people feel the need to redefine concepts with perfectly well-understood meanings.
Cymerdown’s explanation is correct.
It’s a bit further than that in terms of power creep. There is a distinct type of r/p/s right now in terms of build versus build with very few builds being relegated to skill versus skill without an uneven match up or inherent build strengths.
Anytime a game devolves into r/p/s that is power creep. The only outlier in r/p/s is player skill but the discrepancy needs to be huge in order to account of the uphill battle either way.
Well, rock paper scissors balancing doesn’t necessarily have anything to do its power creep. For example, has rock, paper, or scissors ever increased in power in the actual game of rock paper scissors? No, they’re all equally powerful, and always have been. The issue you’re talking about is designing hard counters versus soft counters. That, I do agree, is an unhealthy trend lately, and should be stopped. Imagine shoutcasting a 1v1 between a Diamond Skin Ele vs. Condi Necro… BLU would have a blast with that one. But this issue has no relation to power creep.
Ok, so Warrior got a bunch of buffs to things that people didn’t use until recently. In fact, people basically didn’t use the Warrior at all in PvP until after June 25th. Sounds like a class that needed buffs got them. Too many, granted, but it will continue to get toned down.
There is a mistake in your line of thinking. If you look back warriors could already be used in competitive play previously June 25th. Is just that they went ahead with the HS change that completely made it clear as white the most kittened and easy spec to use it, then you combine it with everything else and you have a highly dumb looking arena net.
EDIT:
A r/p/s balance is kitten and it does indeed bring power creeps seeing that ONE build from a certain class will counter ANOTHER build, which is idiotic.. there will always have ONE of those builds that counter another meta build AND can do other stuff better then the others due class mechanic.
Riviére, Select Start, Cmnd Ctrl, Uninteresting Event @ Three Steps Ahead [Oz]
(edited by Deep Star.6541)
It does because nothing should be “aw kitten, they brought x, y can you reroll as z.” And, currently, that is what we have. The hard and soft counter argument is relevant, I agree, but to a much lesser extent. In earlier patches, the creep was not as evident and meaningful as it is now. You have a two to three builds that, at the moment, currently push a couple of classes completely out of the game – previously, this was not the case.
When you bring up previous iterations of the game, with regards to balance patches, we were closer to balance around April.
Additionally, power creep is a generalized unbalancing of the game, not specific to just increases in power. Using the warrior as a prime example is only one example. Choosing to ignore the other changes is just being facetious.
@ Qaelyn – when we had previous patches that had a rough balancing, which could be seen from every class being displayed and utilized in competitive gameplay, to a point where those classes are pushed out because of build versus build issues – that is indeed a characterization of power creep.
@ Qaelyn – when we had previous patches that had a rough balancing, which could be seen from every class being displayed and utilized in competitive gameplay, to a point where those classes are pushed out because of build versus build issues – that is indeed a characterization of power creep.
No. It’s not. Full stop.
You can say it’s a problem, you can say you don’t like it, you can say it has similar results to power creep. But it is not power creep, which has a very specific meaning, referring to a situation where new content is released that is more powerful than old content, leading to both player power and environmental danger increasing on a regular basis.
Power creep… this term does not mean what you think it means, Bear. :P
Honestly, though, we’re just talking in circles at this point. throws a dictionary at you
For a fact check, people brought Eles and almost never Warriors. They brought Engis and almost never Necros. The two classes did need a little work, it just went too far.
(edited by cymerdown.4103)
Haha,
Yea, I know Ken. When looking at the full definition, my focus is on the “progressive unbalancing of the game.” Whenever we talk about it in tpvp, this is what we mean. Also, balance patches constitute new content, to an extent, and, with regards to warrior, this is a true definition. When looking at other changes that were unbalanced, the first clause certainly holds.
Its because grammar > actual discussion…
Riviére, Select Start, Cmnd Ctrl, Uninteresting Event @ Three Steps Ahead [Oz]