Guild Wars 2

jportell.2197:

yes we have… But if you notice I am not saying they are a problem that needs nerfed nerfed nerfed or anything like that… I just know that I personally have a tough time with them…

… you got me
Same here actually, even if I know what is coming.

Jax.5261:

IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE BURST, LEARN TO DODGE.
If you don’t know how to dodge properly you deserve to have a hard time. If there was no dodging in this game it would be completely different, but there is, so it isn’t.

Whoa there partner. Thieves are the only class which can spam their highest dps attacks more than once every so often. There are only 2 dodges. You’re angry post has a problem of economy here do you see it?

As for me, either Anet will fix this problem, or pvp will die on the vine in this game. There are simply 2 classes which dominate the landscape (yes hotjoin, what the majority of people are playing…dont act all elitist as tournament games are ghost towns moreso than hotjoin).

People can defend decisions till their blue in the face, it wont change the fact that mesmers and thieves are horribly balanced vis a vis other classes in pvp.

SmoothHussler.6387:

Jax.5261:

IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE BURST, LEARN TO DODGE.
If you don’t know how to dodge properly you deserve to have a hard time. If there was no dodging in this game it would be completely different, but there is, so it isn’t.

Whoa there partner. Thieves are the only class which can spam their highest dps attacks more than once every so often. There are only 2 dodges. You’re angry post has a problem of economy here do you see it?

As for me, either Anet will fix this problem, or pvp will die on the vine in this game. There are simply 2 classes which dominate the landscape (yes hotjoin, what the majority of people are playing…dont act all elitist as tournament games are ghost towns moreso than hotjoin).

People can defend decisions till their blue in the face, it wont change the fact that mesmers and thieves are horribly balanced vis a vis other classes in pvp.

This problem appears only because hotjoin is a broken-mode which provides an overload of these classes. It’s still easy to handle them there due to the lower skill-level of players.

For credibility sake,please post proof of more than 200 tournaments wins at least before telling others to “learn to play” 200 is not a big number anyways,maybe for hotjoin fanboys it is too much :X

SmoothHussler.6387:

Jax.5261:

IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE BURST, LEARN TO DODGE.
If you don’t know how to dodge properly you deserve to have a hard time. If there was no dodging in this game it would be completely different, but there is, so it isn’t.

Whoa there partner. Thieves are the only class which can spam their highest dps attacks more than once every so often. There are only 2 dodges. You’re angry post has a problem of economy here do you see it?

As for me, either Anet will fix this problem, or pvp will die on the vine in this game. There are simply 2 classes which dominate the landscape (yes hotjoin, what the majority of people are playing…dont act all elitist as tournament games are ghost towns moreso than hotjoin).

People can defend decisions till their blue in the face, it wont change the fact that mesmers and thieves are horribly balanced vis a vis other classes in pvp.

No they are not. My god some top teams (the few that are left) dont even run thiefs. And mesmers while more common and useful are hardly OP , ESPECIALLY 1on1. Most mesmers spec with illllusion of life, portal and timewarp for tournies, so 3 out of the 4 utilities are for group fights making them average at 1on1 at best. (assuming vs equally skilled player).
If the mesmer speced more for 1on1 his overall contribution would drop enough that youd be better off bringing a ranger or something else.

Im sorry you have trouble with these classes, but dont speak for all of us ( i main engy).
I wonder, do you do alot of tournies or mostly hotjoin?

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

For credibility sake,please post proof of more than 200 tournaments wins at least before telling others to “learn to play” 200 is not a big number anyways,maybe for hotjoin fanboys it is too much :X

200 tourny wins is when you START to stop being a noob. Not when you become good.
So this as a minimun threshold yes.

daydream.2938:

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

For credibility sake,please post proof of more than 200 tournaments wins at least before telling others to “learn to play” 200 is not a big number anyways,maybe for hotjoin fanboys it is too much :X

200 tourny wins is when you START to stop being a noob. Not when you become good.
So this as a minimun threshold yes.

glad u agree on the minimum criteria,i didn’t want to set it too high or most wannabe guru posters will be forced to keep quiet since the good players spend more time in spvp rather than arguing in forums

daydream.2938:

No they are not. My god some top teams (the few that are left) dont even run thiefs.

U discarb that easily Jumper and other thieves that left of the lack or ladder etc , from ur usa servers ? :P

Killthehealersffs.8940:

daydream.2938:

No they are not. My god some top teams (the few that are left) dont even run thiefs.

U discarb that easily Jumper and other thieves that left of the lack or ladder etc , from ur usa servers ? :P

Point is, its not like ele, where close to 100% of top teams ran one. Im not claiming thiefs are weak, they arent. Im saying they are not OP.

Saital.4819:

Xsorus.2507:

The difference between a Thief Burst and a Warriors burst is simple..

Warrior Burst is insanely easy to dodge, and the warrior can’t do it again 4 seconds later or escape the fight if he screws up.

Saying you need stealth because you die to 100b Warriors also cracks me up, Everyone can die to a 100b Warrior….Some of us don’t have stealth to save us from it, even though bout the only time it happens is if they AJ you, or if you’re frankly blind and smashing your head against the keyboard.

Just curious, who are you comparing warrior burst to that has a 4 sec CD on their combo? These are the numbers I come up with:

“Brainless” Warrior Combo:

Bull’s Charge (40s CD) -> Frenzy (60s CD) -> Hundred Blades (8s/6s traited CD) -(optional)> Eviscerate (10s/8s traited CD + endurance)

Longest CD = 60 sec downtime

“Brainless” Thief Combo:

Basilisk Venom (45s/36s traited CD) -> Cloak and Dagger (6 ini) -> Mug (45s/38s traited CD) -> Backstab (0 ini, requires stealth)

Longest CD = 45 sec downtime, 38 sec if traited

Granted, in every scenario a thief burst is indeed up faster, but the only place I could see you pulling “4 seconds” from is if you are only considering Cloak and Dagger+Backstab, which in itself is far from a lethal burst on any target except for a glass cannon elementalist.

Considering CnD+BS on its own is more akin to something like leg specialist bladetrail+100b. There is still a difference, but both classes can pull these off multiple times in a teamfight.

You don’t need Basilisk Venom nor Mug to burst with a thief, Mug does help but you can easily do CND/BS/Heart Seeker Spam.

You need Bulls Charge for a 100b Warrior, otherwise you’re not landing 100b

Xsorus.2507:

You need Bulls Charge for a 100b Warrior, otherwise you’re not landing 100b

No.
Sword F1 into weaponswap into HB
Mace stun into weaponswap into HB
Longbow 5 into w.swap into HB
Hammer F1 into swap into HB

There are other ways.

@jportell: Please, next time avoid those wall of text and try to be as concise as you can.

1. Your experience isn’t a valid proof as my experience isn’t. So avoid to claim data about popularity based on someone’s experience, unless you have something reliable to back them up.

2. Stealth > anything. Stealth is by far the best for of defense. It has easy access and, if the thief has at least half a neuron, he won’t stand still in the same spot he stealthed. So, trying to hit a thief while stealthed is pure speculation, I won’t call it “vulnerability”.

3. Elementalists does not have the best DPS and burst damage in the game. All their damage output comes from might stacks and fury. They also need multiple skill casts to dish out some worthy damage and, stripping their boons, means in most the cases kill their damage.

4. True, other classes have teleports, but most of them are offensive and lower in number compared to thieves’ and mesmers’.

5. Don’t try to do theorycrafting about typical mesmer bursts without taking in consideration traits. I-Leap is on a 16 cooldown. You are hampering nothing by using it.

6. I said without traiting to be effective into. Like, 20→16 seconds cooldown makes such a difference. You can be still effective with clone/phantasms without any trait, that’s the point I’m trying to make. Thieves have worty stealth also without any point spent in Shadow Arts. You ignored the fact that at least 1 skill per weapon set is capable to summon clones/illusions at low cooldown untraited. A mesmer can shatter them to get distortion. A mesmer has also 3 utility slots. A sword mesmer has 2 seconds of invulnerability every 10 seconds. Do I have to say more?

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

If actually experienced players and not hotjoin/WvW kids would answer, this thread would be so smaller. Why? Because ppl would agree that in tPvP (and this is the mode where A-Net is balancing the classes) a thief is one of the most difficult classes to play, also good players know how to dodge the dmg of a mesmer easily. As a mesmer you face most of the time eles. Telling me you don’t need any skill for these both classes is just lack of experience in real competition.

I like those random tPvP elitists.
They are that sad to the point they make myself feeling better.

daydream.2938:

No they are not. My god some top teams (the few that are left) dont even run thiefs. And mesmers while more common and useful are hardly OP , ESPECIALLY 1on1. Most mesmers spec with illllusion of life, portal and timewarp for tournies, so 3 out of the 4 utilities are for group fights making them average at 1on1 at best. (assuming vs equally skilled player).
If the mesmer speced more for 1on1 his overall contribution would drop enough that youd be better off bringing a ranger or something else.

Im sorry you have trouble with these classes, but dont speak for all of us ( i main engy).
I wonder, do you do alot of tournies or mostly hotjoin?

My god really some of the top teams leave out thieves?! Holy smokes that’s crazy!

But seriously…

The fact is you can see the tumbleweed rolling around in the heart of the mists and I betcha one of the reasons for this is the mechanics of thieves and mesmers. Give it alittle longer and no one will play pvp at all but you tourney elitists. I hope it’ll be worth it to you in the end when this game mode dies completely (its almost there).

But…L2P and all that good stuff. Funny how 90% of the people espousing that sentiment in here roll mesmers or thieves, while the other 10% are our resident tournament grandmasters (who incidentally I’m sure have something to say about Eles…l2p bro, l2p).

daydream.2938:

If you look at people complaining about thief/mesmer. you will find the vast majority of them are hotjoin players. And very few, if any are top players.

I’d say that hotjoin, or casual players, outnumbers “top players” by a factor of 1000:1 or more, so yeah, Anet would be wise to listen in on these discussions if they want to appeal to the big masses. If not, then by all means keep balancing the game based on what’s going on in the very small group of “top players”.

sorrow.2364:

@jportell: Please, next time avoid those wall of text and try to be as concise as you can.

1. Your experience isn’t a valid proof as my experience isn’t. So avoid to claim data about popularity based on someone’s experience, unless you have something reliable to back them up.

2. Stealth > anything. Stealth is by far the best for of defense. It has easy access and, if the thief has at least half a neuron, he won’t stand still in the same spot he stealthed. So, trying to hit a thief while stealthed is pure speculation, I won’t call it “vulnerability”.

3. Elementalists does not have the best DPS and burst damage in the game. All their damage output comes from might stacks and fury. They also need multiple skill casts to dish out some worthy damage and, stripping their boons, means in most the cases kill their damage.

4. True, other classes have teleports, but most of them are offensive and lower in number compared to thieves’ and mesmers’.

5. Don’t try to do theorycrafting about typical mesmer bursts without taking in consideration traits. I-Leap is on a 16 cooldown. You are hampering nothing by using it.

6. I said without traiting to be effective into. Like, 20->16 seconds cooldown makes such a difference. You can be still effective with clone/phantasms without any trait, that’s the point I’m trying to make. Thieves have worty stealth also without any point spent in Shadow Arts. You ignored the fact that at least 1 skill per weapon set is capable to summon clones/illusions at low cooldown untraited. A mesmer can shatter them to get distortion. A mesmer has also 3 utility slots. A sword mesmer has 2 seconds of invulnerability every 10 seconds. Do I have to say more?

As far as the without traiting to be effective you need to say a lot more… Without traits mesmers get no boons except for from staff (randomly) and GS on the #2 skill… There is no more shattered strength and no more vigor. And a low cool down? Okay Hold that thought I’ll brb.
Phantasmal Berserker: 20 Sec
Warlock: 18 Seconds
Swordsman: 20 Seconds
Warden: 25 Seconds
Duelist: 20 Seconds
Mage: 30 Seconds

Clone skills:
Mirror Blade: 8
Phase Retreat: 10 seconds
Illusionary Counter:12 seconds (only if an attack lands)
Illusionary Leap: 12 seconds
Illusionary Riposte: 15 seconds (only if an attack lands)

Only one phantasm is under 20 seconds and it doesn’t hit hard unless you have conditions on you… And the iMage is just sad

Tell me that in any team/1v1 fight those cooldowns are good enough to help your team out… or to survive against any other class… People gripe about how easily mesmers make clones but they also forget how easily they are killed. And being effective without any traits spen using phantasms will make people laugh off the damage of most of them. And the greatsword phantasm is missing 3 out of its 4 attacks. It has even gotten to the point now where people don’t even waste a dodge on the GS phantasm because they know it won’t even hurt… and the GS is our most reliable way to catch runners which is now next to impossible.

Stealth maybe a good defense but in return thieves get no blocks… They still have a very high amount of evades built in to their weapons but stealth=/=invulnerable… OH also warriors get blocks, rangers have evades on 3 of their 5 skills in the s/d combo and evades into short bow and GS auto attack.

Guardians get an offensive teleport ( mesmers have staff, iLeap [which works maybe 7/10 times]) Not going to include blink because the range is laughable Thieves by far get the most teleports not gonna argue with you there. And in exchange for mesmers blurred frenzy we have the worst in combat mobility and maybe we will have one block (if the mesmer is using OH sword or scepter.)

So once again, I beg you go do a hot join/duel/tourney or even open world pve (max level) with no trait points spent on a mesmer and tell me how well you do… And I never said the trait points thieves needed to spend to be effective I was talking about mesmers… I know from the painful experience of leveling one (and doing my first match forgetting about points) to know just how bad a mesmer with no traits is… Our illusions die before a shatter can be made and we have no boons. And the theory crafting about mesmer bursts without traits? Genius… Mesmers have no burst without traits. No mental torment, no precise wrack, no iPersona… SO you have no proof (like you claim is soooo necessary for my claims) of mesmer’s effectiveness without spending trait points.

Edit: And as stated my experience in these matches were ele’s had the best burst… Doing tourney’s last night it was warriors

Gallrvaghn.4921:

jportell.2197:

As far as the without traiting to be effective you need to say a lot more… Without traits mesmers get no boons except for from staff (randomly) and GS on the #2 skill… There is no more shattered strength and no more vigor. And a low cool down? Okay Hold that thought I’ll brb.
Phantasmal Berserker: 20 Sec
Warlock: 18 Seconds
Swordsman: 20 Seconds
Warden: 25 Seconds
Duelist: 20 Seconds
Mage: 30 Seconds

Clone skills:
Mirror Blade: 8
Phase Retreat: 10 seconds
Illusionary Counter:12 seconds (only if an attack lands)
Illusionary Leap: 12 seconds
Illusionary Riposte: 15 seconds (only if an attack lands)

Only one phantasm is under 20 seconds and it doesn’t hit hard unless you have conditions on you… And the iMage is just sad

Until you factor in traits that reduce CD. And they stack.

My iWarlock hits hard even when I’m specced Condition. I love it

Yeah we have traits that stack… But this guy sorrow is saying that he can make Mesmer amazing in pvp without using ANY trait points. I challenge anyone to try and pull that off and be good/viable and good for their team.

jportell.2197:

Yeah we have traits that stack… But this guy sorrow is saying that he can make Mesmer amazing in pvp without using ANY trait points. I challenge anyone to try and pull that off and be good/viable and good for their team.

No, I did not said you can be amazing in PvP without using ANY trait point. Read the post I made. I said that Mesmer & Thief do not need to put trait points into defensive traitlines to be effective (not amazing, effective =/= amazing) in their respective defensive mechanic, which is way different. Try to run a Necromancer without Death Magic or Soul Reaping or an Elementalist without Water Magic (for instance).

So, yes, you are arguing about a misunderstanding.

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

For credibility sake,please post proof of more than 200 tournaments wins at least before telling others to “learn to play” 200 is not a big number anyways,maybe for hotjoin fanboys it is too much :X

I’m sorry, but tournament wins prove very little when there is no real matchmaking in place, you could have 200 tourney wins playing in premades team on voice comms against pugs, which as we all know is no indication of skill at all.

Archaon.6245:

shaolin.9716:

The problem with thieves and mesmers is their damage is way too high for professions which are built on escape mechanisms. These professions have the greatest strength in game while not having the greatest weaknesses. It’s actually pretty ridiculous logic. When you play these professions, if you wanna know if your skilled, you cannot judge your skill by your ability to kill anything other than another thief or mesmer. And when you play something else, never take it as you lacking skill when these profession kill you, it doesn’t reflect poorly on you, but on the balance of this game.

Well for a medium and light armored class you also want to give them no dmg? Then what? Make thieves perma-chilled and mesmer perma-dazed? wtf….

Engineers say hi.

(Hyperbolic: yes. Sadly close to the truth: also yes. Yea, there are one or two niche builds that can do decent burst or sustained, but they’re not fun to play at all)

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

Yeah we have traits that stack… But this guy sorrow is saying that he can make Mesmer amazing in pvp without using ANY trait points. I challenge anyone to try and pull that off and be good/viable and good for their team.

No, I did not said you can be amazing in PvP without using ANY trait point. Read the post I made. I said that Mesmer & Thief do not need to put trait points into defensive traitlines to be effective (not amazing, effective =/= amazing) in their respective defensive mechanic, which is way different. Try to run a Necromancer without Death Magic or Soul Reaping or an Elementalist without Water Magic (for instance).

So, yes, you are arguing about a misunderstanding.

Those mesmers usually run some form of toughness in their amulets… The ones that don’t aren’t as effective as you would think. A full GC Mesmer in a tournament is a dead Mesmer to anything that is either faster or has a moniker of toughness…. If I run the 20/20/0/0/30 build you but your hind parts I am running soldiers amulet or zerker with a jewel that has toughness. And in tourney end play… A gc thief is good at one thing being completely alone because if anyone so much as looks at them… they dead.

jportell.2197:

Those mesmers usually run some form of toughness in their amulets… The ones that don’t aren’t as effective as you would think. A full GC Mesmer in a tournament is a dead Mesmer to anything that is either faster or has a moniker of toughness…. If I run the 20/20/0/0/30 build you but your hind parts I am running soldiers amulet or zerker with a jewel that has toughness.

GC thieves and mesmurs die easily when caught offguard, well what GC prof doesn’t? But apparently thieves and mesmurs have an array of innate defensive mechanics that are difficult or infuriating to cope up with- stealth, clones, and a plethora of evasive and defensive skills on their weapon sets.

jportell.2197:

A gc thief is good at one thing being completely alone because if anyone so much as looks at them… they dead.

Problem is that, I can hardly look at thieves who pop stealth every 3 seconds or so, let alone re-target them constantly.. Yeah, I know.. L2P

Gallrvaghn.4921:

jportell.2197:

Those mesmers usually run some form of toughness in their amulets… The ones that don’t aren’t as effective as you would think. A full GC Mesmer in a tournament is a dead Mesmer to anything that is either faster or has a moniker of toughness…. If I run the 20/20/0/0/30 build you but your hind parts I am running soldiers amulet or zerker with a jewel that has toughness.

GC thieves and mesmurs die easily when caught offguard, well what GC prof doesn’t? But apparently thieves and mesmurs have an array of innate defensive mechanics that are difficult or infuriating to cope up with- stealth, clones, and a plethora of evasive and defensive skills on their weapon sets.

jportell.2197:

A gc thief is good at one thing being completely alone because if anyone so much as looks at them… they dead.

Problem is that, I can hardly look at thieves who pop stealth every 3 seconds or so, let alone re-target them constantly.. Yeah, I know.. L2P

I’m going to list the defensive abilities that a Mesmer has on their weapons sets (thieves get an evade/movement in ever weapon set).

For straight damage mitigation (not interrupts or cc)

Mesmers have Blurred frenzy which is a 10s CD
Phase RetreatWhich is also 10s

THAT IS IT… We do have 2 blocks but they only block one attack and don’t hold for a period of time… For completely mitigating damage we have those 2… And they get kittened about quite enough… Mesmers usually will only have ONE stealth ability that lasts 3 seconds and is on a 30+sec cooldown. And for our distortion shatter to be effective we need illusions… And it is on a very long cooldown as well.

jportell.2197:

I’m going to list the defensive abilities that a Mesmer has on their weapons sets (thieves get an evade/movement in ever weapon set).

For straight damage mitigation (not interrupts or cc)

Mesmers have Blurred frenzy which is a 10s CD
Phase RetreatWhich is also 10s

THAT IS IT… We do have 2 blocks but they only block one attack and don’t hold for a period of time… For completely mitigating damage we have those 2… And they get kittened about quite enough… Mesmers usually will only have ONE stealth ability that lasts 3 seconds and is on a 30+sec cooldown. And for our distortion shatter to be effective we need illusions… And it is on a very long cooldown as well.

Like having invulnerability for 2 seconds every 10s plus a bunch of effimeral things which looks like the the Mesmer and act like the Mesmer isn’t enough survivability.
Oh, and you also have some incredibly high cooldown (40s) clone-summoning stealth oh-kitten/panic-button utility! Oh, yup, you were talking about The Prestige, but I wasn’t

If everything miss, just press F4 to save your kitten

Poor Mesmers, they definitely need a buff.

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

I’m going to list the defensive abilities that a Mesmer has on their weapons sets (thieves get an evade/movement in ever weapon set).

For straight damage mitigation (not interrupts or cc)

Mesmers have Blurred frenzy which is a 10s CD
Phase RetreatWhich is also 10s

THAT IS IT… We do have 2 blocks but they only block one attack and don’t hold for a period of time… For completely mitigating damage we have those 2… And they get kittened about quite enough… Mesmers usually will only have ONE stealth ability that lasts 3 seconds and is on a 30+sec cooldown. And for our distortion shatter to be effective we need illusions… And it is on a very long cooldown as well.

Like having invulnerability for 2 seconds every 10s plus a bunch of effimeral things which looks like the the Mesmer and act like the Mesmer isn’t enough survivability.
Oh, and you also have some incredibly high cooldown (40s) clone-summoning stealth oh-kitten/panic-button utility! Oh, yup, you were talking about The Prestige, but I wasn’t

If everything miss, just press F4 to save your kitten

Poor Mesmers, they definitely need a buff.

And then it is now on a 45 sec cooldown IF traited… You aren’t going to convince me that blurred frenzy is OP you know why? Because we don’t get anything else… We get no in weapon evades like thieves, warriors, and rangers. Non. not a single one… Engi’s even get something good with the knockback on their rifle… the staff skill is not an evasion it is a teleport.. That they have barely come around to fixing the bugs on… No more being stuck in walls! And that is a very high cooldown for that utilty skill (decoy)… And the torch is still a joke in pvp, but the buff to prestige was nice at least now if I wanna use the torch Im not just standing there for 3seconds while in stealth unable to dodge even.

Edit: And if you are ever at all confused by the clones… Then that is YOUR problem not the Mesmer… They don’t “Act” like us because they attack SLOWER than us. They don’t look like us (if we are using a dual weapon set) because they DONT HAVE THE OFF HAND WEAPON…. They don’t have buffs, sigils, titles, or boosts under their name…

jportell.2197:

And then it is now on a 45 sec cooldown IF traited… You aren’t going to convince me that blurred frenzy is OP you know why? Because we don’t get anything else… We get no in weapon evades like thieves, warriors, and rangers. Non. not a single one… Engi’s even get something good with the knockback on their rifle… the staff skill is not an evasion it is a teleport.. That they have barely come around to fixing the bugs on… No more being stuck in walls! And that is a very high cooldown for that utilty skill (decoy)… And the torch is still a joke in pvp, but the buff to prestige was nice at least now if I wanna use the torch Im not just standing there for 3seconds while in stealth unable to dodge even.

Edit: And if you are ever at all confused by the clones… Then that is YOUR problem not the Mesmer… They don’t “Act” like us because they attack SLOWER than us. They don’t look like us (if we are using a dual weapon set) because they DONT HAVE THE OFF HAND WEAPON…. They don’t have buffs, sigils, titles, or boosts under their name…

Sure. 2 seconds invulnerability every 10 second is not OP because you have nothing else. The incoherency here is incredible.
Keeping the Thieves apart, where exacly are the Warrior evades? Also, Ranger evades lasts only half a second and (without considering the unreliable GS AA evade) most of them ranges from the same to higher cooldown compared to blurried frenzy.
Blurried Frenzy tecnically means you are capable to stay invulnerable 1/5 of the time. Not OP, you say.

Now add to blurried frenzy the visual confusion coming from clones, stealth and some teleports here and there. So, you have nothing beside blurried frenzy? Stop kidding, please.

About the clones, if I’m confused about the clones it isn’t my problem, it is what the profession is supposed to be, sadly.
Not every fight are 1on1, you have to think a lot of other things during the fight, you have no time to check the attack speed of an entity or offhand weapons (mostly on Asuras) that is going to be shattered in a matter of seconds and then spawned again. The whole picture of the mesmer is broken, it is fine they have visual confusion, but having really A LOT of visual confusion is just too much. Clones, stealth, teleports… Just those thing make the mesmer hard to target, but, like it wasn’t enough, they have also incredibly high damage and invulnerability for 2s every 10s.

Targeting in this game is not that good and seeing a bunch of entities looking the same bouncing all around the screen surely doesn’t help.

Really, I think you are seeing the whole situation with a sort of pink-blurred glasses.

its NEVER a problem telling the real mesmer from the clones ONCE he appears…
Still it ALWAYS takes time thanks to the borked target system which profits only mesmers n thieves.
When will mesmer get that… its a HARD TARGET RESET every few seconds… so every few seconds youre forced to either click or tab the mesmer again… that takes time, practically stuns yourself and even then its a big guess game WHERE the mesmer will be visible again to even be able to target him.
The pure fact u can drop targets every few seconds makes it plain broken with this crappy target system… its a disengage thats almost spammable.
Like thief stealth…
Ppl always say this is a team game… well… target a mesmer who disappears in a team fight… maybe with a minion nec in there… plain kitten

and well… i think its kinda weird that
the 2 most nerfed classes,
the 2 classes widely considered OP for many reasosn,
the 2 classes with the most OP/practical downed states,
the 2 classes who rely a lot on NPCs in a pvp eviroment [ /facepalm ],
the 2 classes with the strongest burst,
are also the ones who have the biggest innate defensive maneuvers,
be it stealth, blurred frenzy, death blossom spamm or plain target resets…
are on coincidence also the only two classes who can reliably stealth stomp every enemy… stealth stomping is such a stupid mechanic for something that can be used so frequently… ppl who pop stability for a stomp or mist form, are at least wasting long defensive CDs in the process…

sorrow.2364:

About the clones, if I’m confused about the clones it isn’t my problem, it is what the profession is supposed to be, sadly.
Not every fight are 1on1, you have to think a lot of other things during the fight, you have no time to check the attack speed of an entity or offhand weapons (mostly on Asuras) that is going to be shattered in a matter of seconds and then spawned again. The whole picture of the mesmer is broken, it is fine they have visual confusion, but having really A LOT of visual confusion is just too much. Clones, stealth, teleports… Just those thing make the mesmer hard to target, but, like it wasn’t enough, they have also incredibly high damage and invulnerability for 2s every 10s.

Targeting in this game is not that good and seeing a bunch of entities looking the same bouncing all around the screen surely doesn’t help.

Really, I think you are seeing the whole situation with a sort of pink-blurred glasses.

And it sounds like you have gotten beat by one too many mesmers in a hot join match…The 10 second invuln doesn’t compare to a rangers evades or an ele’s mobility or a guardians defense. Necro’s get an entire extra life pool and they can have more minions up (for targeting sake) then mesmers can illusions. Now before you get all “NO NECRO WOULD EVER USE MINIONS IN TOURNEY” They have and they do… do you know why? Because they are a bunch of meat shields for the necro and his team. The incoherence in your arguments is just as incredible what should blurred frenzy and PR be on 40 seconds cooldowns and mesmers just stand in one spot and wave and say “hey im right here go ahead and wail on me” any AOE conditions will melt through the clones faster than they can be produced and also do a ton of damage to the Mesmer… Well who is really good at conditions? Nearly every class… Thieves, necros, eles, rangers, engis (omg do engis have good conditions most of which are AOE) and guardians have a bunch as well… All of which are great counters to the Mesmer clones… And a ranger can have evades on 3 of 5 skills using sword/dagger shortest being on a 15 second cooldown… But guess what while that cooldown is going he still has two more evades! And then he can swap to short bow and pew pew pew… Gues what? Short bow also has an evade! Crazy! The two seconds of invulnerability is good but nowhere near OP. And thieves can spam their evades one of which is an AOE bleed can you say bye bye clones? Oh and that skill also evades shatters… Warriors whirl wind attack as given me the “evaded” message before which is why I say they have them in weapon skills as well… But warriors still have the highest health and highest armor in game.. And they still have better condi removal then mesmers… So you know what no you won’t convince me that anything to do with our damage mitigation is OP because other classes are so much better off in areas where the Mesmer is lacking.

And to the Genius Above Me:
Mesmer distortion (that invuln your talking bout) is a 45 second cd if its traited. We can stealth once every 30+ seconds in pvp because no team would let a Mesmer use mass invis and veil is on too long of a cooldown for the stealth to be useful and portal is a must. Our innate defensive maneuvers as you call them are really our ONLY defensive maneuvers… We are out shined by other classes in soo many areas like condition damage (engineers can make confusion last longer and stack more than us WTF?!) and condition removal…. The only way we can get it is through a 2 traits or utility skills… Every other class gets SOME condition removal in their heals or weapon skills… WADUPWIT DAT? (/sarcasm)

jportell.2197:

And it sounds like you have gotten beat by one too many mesmers in a hot join match…The 10 second invuln doesn’t compare to a rangers evades or an ele’s mobility or a guardians defense. Necro’s get an entire extra life pool and they can have more minions up (for targeting sake) then mesmers can illusions. Now before you get all “NO NECRO WOULD EVER USE MINIONS IN TOURNEY” They have and they do… do you know why? Because they are a bunch of meat shields for the necro and his team. The incoherence in your arguments is just as incredible what should blurred frenzy and PR be on 40 seconds cooldowns and mesmers just stand in one spot and wave and say “hey im right here go ahead and wail on me” any AOE conditions will melt through the clones faster than they can be produced and also do a ton of damage to the Mesmer… Well who is really good at conditions? Nearly every class… Thieves, necros, eles, rangers, engis (omg do engis have good conditions most of which are AOE) and guardians have a bunch as well… All of which are great counters to the Mesmer clones… And a ranger can have evades on 3 of 5 skills using sword/dagger shortest being on a 15 second cooldown… But guess what while that cooldown is going he still has two more evades! And then he can swap to short bow and pew pew pew… Gues what? Short bow also has an evade! Crazy! The two seconds of invulnerability is good but nowhere near OP. And thieves can spam their evades one of which is an AOE bleed can you say bye bye clones? Oh and that skill also evades shatters… Warriors whirl wind attack as given me the “evaded” message before which is why I say they have them in weapon skills as well… But warriors still have the highest health and highest armor in game.. And they still have better condi removal then mesmers… So you know what no you won’t convince me that anything to do with our damage mitigation is OP because other classes are so much better off in areas where the Mesmer is lacking.

Sounds like you are grasping at straws.

1. You completely ignored the fact that Ranger evades lasts half a second or less. They are useful only to avoid one hit. 2s is actually 4x the average evade time of Rangers, that means you need 4 skills to get to the same amount damage mitigation of Blurried Frenzy. Do some math and get to your conclusions. You also ignored the fact that, other than those evades, Rangers haven’t any defensive mechanic left.

2. You forgot to mention that Minions have high cooldowns and that those cooldowns start counting after the minion dies. This means, just in case you don’t get it, that once minions are killed, they won’t be summoned again for a good while. You also forgot to mention that as opposed to mesmer’s illusions, Necromancer’s minions are flawed with many targeting acquiring and attacking problem (they often don’t attack at all). You forgot also to mention that minion doesn’t actually looks like the Necromancer.
You also forgot to mention that Death Shroud isn’t properly an extra life pool (you would have known that if you actually played a Necromancer).

3. You didn’t read the part where I said to keep thieves apart. Justifying an imbalance because another profession is imbalanced is plain stupid.

4. Warrior have high health pool, high armor, but almost no condition removal and no defensive mechanic at all. Saying that mesmers have poor condition removal when they have skills like Null Field, Arcane Thievery and traits like Cleansing Conflagration sounds pretty funny.

its kinda pointless arguing about mesmer/thief balance with mesmer fanboys or players anyway.

Imply less, read more
I wasnt only talking about distortion [ blurred frenzy, 2sec invuln+dmg every 10/8sec traited VS. endure pain 4sec invulnerable 90sec CD … and again, distortion 3/4/5sec invulnerable 45sec CD VS. endure pain… nuff said ]
Obviously the stealth stomp spamm argument is more directed at the thieves than mesmers… still…
stealth stomping every 30sec … since youre one of only two classes who are even able to… is also overkill since you have the stability stomp option too, which is the ONLY option for most classes.
And the condi dmg/removal part… youre one of the strongest and most easy to use/land burster in the game [ with the biggest possible error margin ]… get over the lack of condi dmg, if there even is one, which i doubt.
And QQing about your bad condi removal [ 2 traits and 2 utilities = 4 ways ]to me, a warrior, is kind of pathetic.

And since you avoided to reply to any other of my points i listed in regards to thief/mesmer at the end… ^^

its just useless to try n have an objective discussion with ppl attached to the class whose oppinion is surely subjective. Not saying im totaly objective… i try to be… yet my view is surely influenced by the class i play, my warrior.

GanJoe.5374:

its kinda pointless arguing about mesmer/thief balance with mesmer fanboys or players anyway.

But its amazing that youre able to tell me what i am actually talking about… i’d be lost without you… maybe imply less, read more ?
I wasnt only talking about distortion [ blurred frenzy, 2sec invuln+dmg every 10/8sec traited VS. endure pain 4sec invulnerable 90sec CD … and again, distortion 3/4/5sec invulnerable okittensec CD VS. endure pain… nuff said ]
Obviously the stealth stomp spamm argument is more directed at the thieves than mesmers… still…
stealth stomping every 30sec … since youre one of only two classes who are even able to… i rly feel for ya.
And the condi dmg/removal part… youre one of the strongest and most easy to use/land burster in the game [ with the biggest possible error margin ]… get over the lack of condi dmg, if there even is one, which i doubt.
And QQing about your bad condi removal [ 2 traits and 2 utilities = 4 ways ]to me, a warrior, is kind of pathetic.

And since you avoided to reply to any other of my points i listed in regards to thief/mesmer at the end… ^^

One of your other points? Warrior still is able to remove a condition with a heal… I don’t care what you say they get 2 conditions in a heal before even touching traits or other utilites… Mesmers don’t right there warriors are better off then mesmers with regards to conditions. And also in the current meta teams would require mesmers to bring portal and maybe illusion of life (depending on what other classes are on the team) So that means that a Mesmer might have either one condition removal skill or none. If he is bringing a condi removal I know it won’t be arcane thievery the range sucks and it is buggy as hell… Mantra of resolve maybe but null field is most likely.. And in any team most Mesmer’s won’t have a reduced cd on the glamour skills so it will be at least 45 seconds before they are able to remove conditions again… and null field (like other glamour skills) is bugged out and only lasts half of its stated duration. So yeah I am gonna say it mesmers have the WORST CONDTION REMOVAL IN THIS GAME. And while I forgot to mention that necro minions don’t look like the necro he still has more of them than mesmers have of clones and minion AI is just as bad as clone AI (let me stand in one spot follow you and auto attack you. Also the minions have much higher health than any Mesmer illusion and can apply more conditions than any Mesmer illusion… And death shroud still builds gives them extra health while their heal skill may be on CD

GanJoe.5374:

its kinda pointless arguing about mesmer/thief balance with mesmer fanboys or players anyway.

Imply less, read more
I wasnt only talking about distortion [ blurred frenzy, 2sec invuln+dmg every 10/8sec traited VS. endure pain 4sec invulnerable 90sec CD … and again, distortion 3/4/5sec invulnerable 45sec CD VS. endure pain… nuff said ]
Obviously the stealth stomp spamm argument is more directed at the thieves than mesmers… still…
stealth stomping every 30sec … since youre one of only two classes who are even able to… is also overkill since you have the stability stomp option too, which is the ONLY option for most classes.
And the condi dmg/removal part… youre one of the strongest and most easy to use/land burster in the game [ with the biggest possible error margin ]… get over the lack of condi dmg, if there even is one, which i doubt.
And QQing about your bad condi removal [ 2 traits and 2 utilities = 4 ways ]to me, a warrior, is kind of pathetic.

And since you avoided to reply to any other of my points i listed in regards to thief/mesmer at the end… ^^

its just useless to try n have an objective discussion with ppl attached to the class whose oppinion is surely subjective. Not saying im totaly objective… i try to be… yet my view is surely influenced by the class i play, my warrior.

The best way to resolve the subjectivity of an argument is to find evidence of how the class performs. The higher the level of play you go the more you will see thiefs/mesmers drop off. Now timewarp is amazing dont get me wrong. But double mesmer groups/double thiefs groups basically dont exist at high level of play , you would get punished for it. And thiefs have to be really good to not die because high level players know how to deal with backstab-not saying thiefs are weak, but they are not OP.

Most players from top teams (the few ones left./ones that are gone) cconsider elementlist/ranger, gaurdian to be the top classes.

Thiefs/mesmers are just not OP. I dont have trouble dealing with stealth regen thiefs, they do too little damage. Good backstab thiefs are threatening but exciting to fight, they make 1 mistake i got them, i make 1 i die.

Since they dont give me much trouble and im good-not elite- i imagine all but the best theifs arent scary to elite players. So this really factually is a skill curve issue, not a balance issue. .
HOWEVER-it is true that thiefs/mesmers have a steep learning curve to fight against, and i think that might be very frustrating for new players. So i’m glad the devs are talking about reworking stealth a little.

jportell.2197:

One of your other points? Warrior still is able to remove a condition with a heal… I don’t care what you say they get 2 conditions in a heal before even touching traits or other utilites… Mesmers don’t right there warriors are better off then mesmers with regards to conditions. And also in the current meta teams would require mesmers to bring portal and maybe illusion of life (depending on what other classes are on the team) So that means that a Mesmer might have either one condition removal skill or none. If he is bringing a condi removal I know it won’t be arcane thievery the range sucks and it is buggy as hell… Mantra of resolve maybe but null field is most likely.. And in any team most Mesmer’s won’t have a reduced cd on the glamour skills so it will be at least 45 seconds before they are able to remove conditions again… and null field (like other glamour skills) is bugged out and only lasts half of its stated duration. So yeah I am gonna say it mesmers have the WORST CONDTION REMOVAL IN THIS GAME. And while I forgot to mention that necro minions don’t look like the necro he still has more of them than mesmers have of clones and minion AI is just as bad as clone AI (let me stand in one spot follow you and auto attack you. Also the minions have much higher health than any Mesmer illusion and can apply more conditions than any Mesmer illusion… And death shroud still builds gives them extra health while their heal skill may be on CD

1. Null field lasts 5 seconds, according to Wiki, which isn’t actually half 7s.

2. Mesmer does not have the worst condition removal in this game. Cleansing Conflagration and Null Field are far more than the condition removal skills that Warrior has.

3. Minion AI isn’t just as bad as Clone AI. Clones just attack the target they are summoned to and they do their job fine. Minions have to constantly change target and this is where they fail.

4. Minions can apply more conditions than any mesmer illusion? The only two minions that apply conditions are Bone Fiend (2s cripple every 10s, AMAZING!) and Flesh Golem (1s cripple, MORE AMAZING!). There is also Jagged Horror which lands about 2 hits in his whole life to apply 2 bleeds for 5s.
Now, take a look at Illusions.
- Phase Retreat (Winds of Chaos means 1s burning, 7s bleeding or 5s vulnerability plus bounce and boons)
- Phantasmal Mage (3s of confusion) plus retaliation
- Sharper Images (5s of bleeding on crit)
- Phantasmal Berserker (2s cripple per whirl hit)
Which is, in fact, more. Consider also that all those skills are weapon skills. Necromancer’s skills are utility.

5. Life Force has to be built and it is drained of 3% per second, which is quite a lot (about 7-8 stacks of bleed with quite high condition damage). Necromancer have no access to any of his skills while in Death Shroud, also. He has no access to stunbreaker and defensive skills too. He can’t see his conditions and his boons. So I wouldn’t call it a second life pool. Keep in mind also that more HP =/= more survivability. Look at Thieves or Elementalists.

6. You accurately ignored the recharge point I made. Mesmer’s clones and illusions can be spammed. Minions can’t.

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

One of your other points? Warrior still is able to remove a condition with a heal… I don’t care what you say they get 2 conditions in a heal before even touching traits or other utilites… Mesmers don’t right there warriors are better off then mesmers with regards to conditions. And also in the current meta teams would require mesmers to bring portal and maybe illusion of life (depending on what other classes are on the team) So that means that a Mesmer might have either one condition removal skill or none. If he is bringing a condi removal I know it won’t be arcane thievery the range sucks and it is buggy as hell… Mantra of resolve maybe but null field is most likely.. And in any team most Mesmer’s won’t have a reduced cd on the glamour skills so it will be at least 45 seconds before they are able to remove conditions again… and null field (like other glamour skills) is bugged out and only lasts half of its stated duration. So yeah I am gonna say it mesmers have the WORST CONDTION REMOVAL IN THIS GAME. And while I forgot to mention that necro minions don’t look like the necro he still has more of them than mesmers have of clones and minion AI is just as bad as clone AI (let me stand in one spot follow you and auto attack you. Also the minions have much higher health than any Mesmer illusion and can apply more conditions than any Mesmer illusion… And death shroud still builds gives them extra health while their heal skill may be on CD

1. Null field lasts 5 seconds, according to Wiki, which isn’t actually half 7s.

2. Mesmer does not have the worst condition removal in this game. Cleansing Conflagration and Null Field are far more than the condition removal skills that Warrior has.

3. Minion AI isn’t just as bad as Clone AI. Clones just attack the target they are summoned to and they do their job fine. Minions have to constantly change target and this is where they fail.

4. Minions can apply more conditions than any mesmer illusion? The only two minions that apply conditions are Bone Fiend (2s cripple every 10s, AMAZING!) and Flesh Golem (1s cripple, MORE AMAZING!). There is also Jagged Horror which lands about 2 hits in his whole life to apply 2 bleeds for 5s.
Now, take a look at Illusions.
- Phase Retreat (Winds of Chaos means 1s burning, 7s bleeding or 5s vulnerability plus bounce and boons)
- Phantasmal Mage (3s of confusion) plus retaliation
- Sharper Images (5s of bleeding on crit)
- Phantasmal Berserker (2s cripple per whirl hit)
Which is, in fact, more. Consider also that all those skills are weapon skills. Necromancer’s skills are utility.

5. Life Force has to be built and it is drained of 3% per second, which is quite a lot (about 7-8 stacks of bleed with quite high condition damage). Necromancer have no access to any of his skills while in Death Shroud, also. He has no access to stunbreaker and defensive skills too. He can’t see his conditions and his boons. So I wouldn’t call it a second life pool. Keep in mind also that more HP =/= more survivability. Look at Thieves or Elementalists.

6. You accurately ignored the recharge point I made. Mesmer’s clones and illusions can be spammed. Minions can’t.

Mesmer clones are meant to be spammed.. Phantasms can’t all phantasms have a cooldown whether they are killed out right or not its there… And I just made a necro did some hot join.. Guess what? Absolutely destroyed Mesmers extremely fast… Necro is scary good in PvP and death shroud needs some work sure but it isn’t as bad as you make it out to be and no warriors still have better condi removal then mesmers hands down no matter what you say. I know Mesmer is worse because I have seen warriors cleanse my conditions quite quick. And warriors have a signet that removes all conditions from them and that is on a 45s cooldown but guess what? IT REMOVES ALL CONDITIONS! Null field only removes one per pulse and arcane thievery IF it lands sends three to an enemy. So yes MESMERS HAVE WORST CONDITION REMOVAL IN THIS GAME… No passive like ele’s, rangers, or guardians get. No using them to your advantage like necros (necro’s can also send all their conditions to an enemy not just three.) I’d say after mesmers engis might have the worst but they have a trait where all elixirs remove conditions!

^ amazing. You killed people in hot join. Insanity.

ensoriki.5789:

^ amazing. You killed people in hot join. Insanity.

Not going to do tourneys on a class I am still getting used to… Guess what did duels too.. Once again. It was pretty good…

Masternewbz.4953:

tic.7425:

I’ve actually semi-retired my mesmer. For the most part its not really challenging at all.

The hardest class for me is a necro, because of my (really) limited condition removal. Other than that, a lot of it is just (too) easy, not all mind you, but a lot of it.. I’m no elite PvPer by any stretch, but mesmers sure do make it pretty easy. A lot of times, when i see a 2 on 1, i feel like im going to get a really good challenge.

Been playing MMOs for a long time, the only thing to me more discouraging than playing an "underpowered " class, is playing the fotm “overpowered” one. Hard to believe, but when you see certain classes representation dominating the PvP landscape, there maybe a reason why..

/shrug

Are you serious? Lol.

Get on a mesmer and I will beat you with any profession.

Beating Rank 15 with 0 QP aint a challenge bro.

As I said, i am no elite PvPer, such as yourself being as you can beat me with any class i suppose. All i said, is with the mesmer class, it becomes a easier than with most others. I also mentioned against some classes i don’t even mind a 2 on 1. Maybe they are just poor players, not everyone is as awesome at video games as the reknowned Masternewbz, sir…

ummm…

Serious. Lol. bro.
(?)

jportell.2197:

Mesmer clones are meant to be spammed.. Phantasms can’t all phantasms have a cooldown whether they are killed out right or not its there… And I just made a necro did some hot join.. Guess what? Absolutely destroyed Mesmers extremely fast… Necro is scary good in PvP and death shroud needs some work sure but it isn’t as bad as you make it out to be and no warriors still have better condi removal then mesmers hands down no matter what you say. I know Mesmer is worse because I have seen warriors cleanse my conditions quite quick. And warriors have a signet that removes all conditions from them and that is on a 45s cooldown but guess what? IT REMOVES ALL CONDITIONS! Null field only removes one per pulse and arcane thievery IF it lands sends three to an enemy. So yes MESMERS HAVE WORST CONDITION REMOVAL IN THIS GAME… No passive like ele’s, rangers, or guardians get. No using them to your advantage like necros (necro’s can also send all their conditions to an enemy not just three.) I’d say after mesmers engis might have the worst but they have a trait where all elixirs remove conditions!

We fell back into the “my experience is a proof” argument.
Really, we should keep experiences (me and yours) away from this argument. They aren’t worth mentioning and they really don’t matter for the sake of discussion.

I never mentioned my experience, so you should.

Null Field is on the same recharge time as the signet. That skill also strips ALL boons on enemies every tick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_584011&feature=iv&src_vid=SnGmjNB24RU&v=SnGmjNB24RU#t=7m47s). I don’t know if it strips all conditions also, but it ticks 5 times, so I think that also if it cured only one condition, it would be enough considering the torch trait. Running Torch with Null Field grants you all the condition removal you need.

I did not wanted to make Death Shroud look bad, I just wanted to point out that Death Shroud isn’t properly a “second life pool” as you said.

Spammable visual confusion is a big deal in terms of defensive capability. It tricks the eyes, exploits the targeting system and plays on the PC performance (more entities, less fps).

If people are having issues with FPS in PVP then they need a new machine. I have lag issues but when I have them everyone does so that is a server issue… And in that video the boons were going down right when null field was cast but hey lemme double check this. But in terms of raw damage even if it does remove the conditions we have to stay right in the middle of it which again (pretty big clue as to where we are) and if the Mesmer has this up he isn’t Spamming clones as much as you say because that means he doesn’t have either mirror images or decoy.

Edit: tested how null field worked on my buddy that is a shout guardian… Had him immediately use all shouts at once popped nullfield… it did not strip all boons at once… it did 1-2 per pulse… So I there for stand by that the targets and the mesmers have to stay inside the field for it to work and even then it may not remove all boons/conditions. SOOO I say again yes warriors have better condition removal because that signet is guaranteed condition removal null field is dependant on several other things (5target limit, stationary ground target, and not all at once, and the targets staying inside the bright pink circle)

And if I was able to record it for mr. Empirical up there it wouldn’t be based off my experience but just proof… However I don’t so yes this is my evidence like it or not.

I don’t know why everyone is talking about shatter mesmers. It’s the phantasm mesmers that need to be nerfed.

jportell.2197:

If people are having issues with FPS in PVP then they need a new machine. I have lag issues but when I have them everyone does so that is a server issue… And in that video the boons were going down right when null field was cast but hey lemme double check this. But in terms of raw damage even if it does remove the conditions we have to stay right in the middle of it which again (pretty big clue as to where we are) and if the Mesmer has this up he isn’t Spamming clones as much as you say because that means he doesn’t have either mirror images or decoy.

Edit: tested how null field worked on my buddy that is a shout guardian… Had him immediately use all shouts at once popped nullfield… it did not strip all boons at once… it did 1-2 per pulse… So I there for stand by that the targets and the mesmers have to stay inside the field for it to work and even then it may not remove all boons/conditions. SOOO I say again yes warriors have better condition removal because that signet is guaranteed condition removal null field is dependant on several other things (5target limit, stationary ground target, and not all at once, and the targets staying inside the bright pink circle)

And if I was able to record it for mr. Empirical up there it wouldn’t be based off my experience but just proof… However I don’t so yes this is my evidence like it or not.

I can’t argue with those conditions. Saying that you tested the skill on BOONS without checking the condition removal and just saying that it strips only 1-2 boons is pretty weak compare to the video proof I linked to you.

I can’t believe a random guy I met on the forum, expecially when I’ve seen that video that proves otherwise, and I probably won’t believe also a friend of mine if he just says something and I think that that thing is not true.

Who cares if you have to stay inside Null Field? Man, you completely ignored the fact that it’s AoE! AoE condition cleansing and boon stripping and you dare to say that it is unreliable? Seriously. You can’t be more biased.

Did someone ever told you that Mesmer have access to 3 utility skills?

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

If people are having issues with FPS in PVP then they need a new machine. I have lag issues but when I have them everyone does so that is a server issue… And in that video the boons were going down right when null field was cast but hey lemme double check this. But in terms of raw damage even if it does remove the conditions we have to stay right in the middle of it which again (pretty big clue as to where we are) and if the Mesmer has this up he isn’t Spamming clones as much as you say because that means he doesn’t have either mirror images or decoy.

Edit: tested how null field worked on my buddy that is a shout guardian… Had him immediately use all shouts at once popped nullfield… it did not strip all boons at once… it did 1-2 per pulse… So I there for stand by that the targets and the mesmers have to stay inside the field for it to work and even then it may not remove all boons/conditions. SOOO I say again yes warriors have better condition removal because that signet is guaranteed condition removal null field is dependant on several other things (5target limit, stationary ground target, and not all at once, and the targets staying inside the bright pink circle)

And if I was able to record it for mr. Empirical up there it wouldn’t be based off my experience but just proof… However I don’t so yes this is my evidence like it or not.

I can’t argue with those conditions. Saying that you tested the skill on BOONS without checking the condition removal and just saying that it strips only 1-2 boons is pretty weak compare to the video proof I linked to you.

I can’t believe a random guy I met on the forum, expecially when I’ve seen that video that proves otherwise, and I probably won’t believe also a friend of mine if he just says something and I think that that thing is not true.

Who cares if you have to stay inside Null Field? Man, you completely ignored the fact that it’s AoE! AoE condition cleansing and boon stripping and you dare to say that it is unreliable? Seriously. You can’t be more biased.

Did someone ever told you that Mesmer have access to 3 utility skills?

Yeah and guess what in tourneys the team REQUIRES them to bring portal. So there is 2 utility skills and some teams require illusion of life… And the video you showed me was of boons that were already wearing off I set there and watched boons slowly disappear and I mean ALL boons (shout guardian remember) so no it is not instant and it works the same with conditions as well. So there again yes mesmers have the worst condition removal in game. And the fact that its stationary ground targeted AOE is what makes it a joke. If you throw it down in a pinch and you are still getting conditions applied then all you are doing is losing them as fast as you get them. Teams don’t make requirements for what a warrior brings the way they do for mesmers… Same goes for any other class… Except maybe signet of undeath if the team has a necro… Bunker Guards, Bunker D/d Ele’s, Warriors, rangers can all bring what they want as long as they do the job they intend to do on the team. Mesmers get requirements set for them on utilities and some teams require them to bring certain weapons as well because of the group utility of those weapons… So you are just as biased if not worse. Took my d/d ele into tournies (first time ever) I was able to sit there and dance around on a point while a thief a bunker guard and a warrior were all trying to get me off…. Please… I only wish that a Mesmer had a prayer of condition removal that good… All I had to do was use my healing skill and every 15 seconds poof all conditions gone… And that was IF I even needed my healing skill.

I agree with OP. It’s not a matter of balance, it’s a matter of skill.

I as an engineer (rank 12, first char). Can beat most lvl 30 Mesmer’s. Why?: Because I have a lvl 40 Mesmer mate I train with; I duel with.

I beat him 1/3 duels we do. And trust me, he’s some of the best I’ve seen.

I wouldn’t say a matter of skill, but a matter of knowing your opponent skills perfectly, reacting to them, and knowing your own character to perfection.

Luck is there too, otherwise it wouldn’t be that fun.

P.S: I’m not a holder; I’m DPS.

jportell.2197:

Yeah and guess what in tourneys the team REQUIRES them to bring portal. So there is 2 utility skills and some teams require illusion of life… And the video you showed me was of boons that were already wearing off I set there and watched boons slowly disappear and I mean ALL boons (shout guardian remember) so no it is not instant and it works the same with conditions as well. So there again yes mesmers have the worst condition removal in game. And the fact that its stationary ground targeted AOE is what makes it a joke. If you throw it down in a pinch and you are still getting conditions applied then all you are doing is losing them as fast as you get them. Teams don’t make requirements for what a warrior brings the way they do for mesmers… Same goes for any other class… Except maybe signet of undeath if the team has a necro… Bunker Guards, Bunker D/d Ele’s, Warriors, rangers can all bring what they want as long as they do the job they intend to do on the team. Mesmers get requirements set for them on utilities and some teams require them to bring certain weapons as well because of the group utility of those weapons… So you are just as biased if not worse. Took my d/d ele into tournies (first time ever) I was able to sit there and dance around on a point while a thief a bunker guard and a warrior were all trying to get me off…. Please… I only wish that a Mesmer had a prayer of condition removal that good… All I had to do was use my healing skill and every 15 seconds poof all conditions gone… And that was IF I even needed my healing skill.

The fact that every team needs a Mesmer with Portal or Illusion of Life is another clear sign of imbalance, just saying. You want to play tPvP? You NEED a Mesmer in your team. This is stupid and, for sure, not balanced in a game like this.

This game is a complete mess when talking about PvP. Mesmer and Thieves are are the peak of the iceberg, but everything is flawed. Just look at how you are arguing. You are justifying a flaw listing other flaws. This makes no sense. All flaws need to be adjusted and Mesmers ARE NOT FINE just like Elementalists, Warriors, Thieves and so on. They need to be completely reworked, some builds are insanely stupid and powerful, some other are worthless, some mechanic just does not make sense.

Stop pretending Mesmer is weak or is not OP. Mesmer is imbalanced, most professions are imbalanced, but Mesmers are by far, with Thieves, the most hurting because they are extremely easy to play and to exploit.

Good fights can be lost and remain good fights. Today I was killed in a literal two seconds by a thief. He appeared and killed me. I have 1750 toughness. I had no time to teleport, stealth or do anything other than die.

That was not a good fight. I want to be able to fight back. I’m cool with loosing and will return and fight the person for as long as they can stand me so I can learn to time myself better, but two/three second kills? No.

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

Yeah and guess what in tourneys the team REQUIRES them to bring portal. So there is 2 utility skills and some teams require illusion of life… And the video you showed me was of boons that were already wearing off I set there and watched boons slowly disappear and I mean ALL boons (shout guardian remember) so no it is not instant and it works the same with conditions as well. So there again yes mesmers have the worst condition removal in game. And the fact that its stationary ground targeted AOE is what makes it a joke. If you throw it down in a pinch and you are still getting conditions applied then all you are doing is losing them as fast as you get them. Teams don’t make requirements for what a warrior brings the way they do for mesmers… Same goes for any other class… Except maybe signet of undeath if the team has a necro… Bunker Guards, Bunker D/d Ele’s, Warriors, rangers can all bring what they want as long as they do the job they intend to do on the team. Mesmers get requirements set for them on utilities and some teams require them to bring certain weapons as well because of the group utility of those weapons… So you are just as biased if not worse. Took my d/d ele into tournies (first time ever) I was able to sit there and dance around on a point while a thief a bunker guard and a warrior were all trying to get me off…. Please… I only wish that a Mesmer had a prayer of condition removal that good… All I had to do was use my healing skill and every 15 seconds poof all conditions gone… And that was IF I even needed my healing skill.

The fact that every team needs a Mesmer with Portal or Illusion of Life is another clear sign of imbalance, just saying. You want to play tPvP? You NEED a Mesmer in your team. This is stupid and, for sure, not balanced in a game like this.

This game is a complete mess when talking about PvP. Mesmer and Thieves are are the peak of the iceberg, but everything is flawed. Just look at how you are arguing. You are justifying a flaw listing other flaws. This makes no sense. All flaws need to be adjusted and Mesmers ARE NOT FINE just like Elementalists, Warriors, Thieves and so on. They need to be completely reworked, some builds are insanely stupid and powerful, some other are worthless, some mechanic just does not make sense.

Stop pretending Mesmer is weak or is not OP. Mesmer is imbalanced, most professions are imbalanced, but Mesmers are by far, with Thieves, the most hurting because they are extremely easy to play and to exploit.

Well here we are again this is going to be based off of MY experience because that is all I have to go on here… Thief yeah easy to play I’ll give you that….Mesmer not so… You are managing 3 separate entities while trying to manage yourself… It is by far the most active type of class I have played. More decisions are made in a fight than with any other class. Mesmer relies on a very active play style… And the only bad thing about what they demand for mesmers (GUESS WHAT PORTAL IS GETTING SHARED WITH ANOHTER CLASS HAS ALREADY BEEN STATED) is that it limits mesmers… And as far as illusion of life goes? A necromancer could easily bring signet of undeath and guess what that FULLY revives a player… Oh and they still have condition removal in their heal skill (very strong). Warriors can bring battle standard which still FULLY REVIVES teammates oh and they still have condition removal in their heal skill… In the current demand for mesmers we are left with no options to have condition removal… Us and engineers have none in our heal skill (unless the engi brings turret which I doubt they will) Every other class has it in their healing skill. And with kit refinement (if your team has an engi they are running this) cures two conditions upon equipping of certain kits and Med kit weapon skills have condition removal as well… So there again Mesmer has the worst… All a warrior has to do is use his healing skill and it clears two… And then they still have a signet if there are any left over… I know the designers have intended for mesmers to have a tough time with conditions because they have stated it. When mesmers say their weakness is conditions EVERYONE JUST IGNORES IT AND CONTINUES WITH THE OP BS. If warriors got better condition removal in their heal skill lets say All conditions with mending. Guess how much more OP they would become… They already have the hardest hitting skill in the game (and before you say oh use a stun break or dodge out of it just L2P) guess what that is the same excuse thieves use for their combos and mesmers as well… In order for null field to be truly awesome a Mesmer would have to trait for it in ways that would severely weaken them and he would do nothing else for his team.

jportell.2197:

Well here we are again this is going to be based off of MY experience because that is all I have to go on here… Thief yeah easy to play I’ll give you that….Mesmer not so… You are managing 3 separate entities while trying to manage yourself… It is by far the most active type of class I have played. More decisions are made in a fight than with any other class. Mesmer relies on a very active play style… And the only bad thing about what they demand for mesmers (GUESS WHAT PORTAL IS GETTING SHARED WITH ANOHTER CLASS HAS ALREADY BEEN STATED) is that it limits mesmers… And as far as illusion of life goes? A necromancer could easily bring signet of undeath and guess what that FULLY revives a player… Oh and they still have condition removal in their heal skill (very strong). Warriors can bring battle standard which still FULLY REVIVES teammates oh and they still have condition removal in their heal skill… In the current demand for mesmers we are left with no options to have condition removal… Us and engineers have none in our heal skill (unless the engi brings turret which I doubt they will) Every other class has it in their healing skill. And with kit refinement (if your team has an engi they are running this) cures two conditions upon equipping of certain kits and Med kit weapon skills have condition removal as well… So there again Mesmer has the worst… All a warrior has to do is use his healing skill and it clears two… And then they still have a signet if there are any left over… I know the designers have intended for mesmers to have a tough time with conditions because they have stated it. When mesmers say their weakness is conditions EVERYONE JUST IGNORES IT AND CONTINUES WITH THE OP BS. If warriors got better condition removal in their heal skill lets say All conditions with mending. Guess how much more OP they would become… They already have the hardest hitting skill in the game (and before you say oh use a stun break or dodge out of it just L2P) guess what that is the same excuse thieves use for their combos and mesmers as well… In order for null field to be truly awesome a Mesmer would have to trait for it in ways that would severely weaken them and he would do nothing else for his team.

Mesmers are easy to play.
You do not have to manage your illusions as you would do with your ranger to manage your pet, illusions are stupid are unmanagable, they spawn and hit their target till he is dead or they die. Don’t pretend you have to do a lot of mico-management which is not true. Illusions are casted and can be easily forgotten until you have to shatter them.

The fact that a Mesmer is mandatory in every tPvP team screams “IMBALANCE”. The fact that other professions have ress skills while not everyone have them says again “IMBALANCE”. It makes no sense to justify an imbalance with another imbalance.

Null field IS truly awesome. Just consider it has almost the effect of 2 Necromancer wells with less cooldown. The fact that you don’t use it or that you don’t use the torch with the condition removal trait, doesn’t mean that Mesmers are weak at removing condition or that they have no options to do so. There are some professions who are specifically designed to manage conditions and some other who have good condition removal, but this doesn’t mean that Mesmers have no tool to remove conditions and, to be honest, considering all the defensive capabilities mesmer have, it actually need some rework to be considered balanced.
For instance, Blurried Frenzy seriously need to be looked at. Shatter mechanic needs some tweaking too. Of course there are some builds which can use a buff, but don’t use it as an excuse to justify the builds which are clearly overperforming over the average.
Mesmers need their defensive capability to be reworked and, probably, to be more related to their trait to be truly effective.

Just to say, if you run a completely glass cannon Mesmer, you are less likely to die compared to (for instance) a glass cannon Necromancer, just because the Necromancer will just stay there in place taking all the damage because he has no tool to avoid them. This is the whole point.

sorrow.2364:

Mesmers are easy to play.
You do not have to manage your illusions as you would do with your ranger to manage your pet, illusions are stupid are unmanagable, they spawn and hit their target till he is dead or they die. Don’t pretend you have to do a lot of mico-management which is not true. Illusions are casted and can be easily forgotten until you have to shatter them.

The fact that a Mesmer is mandatory in every tPvP team screams “IMBALANCE”. The fact that other professions have ress skills while not everyone have them says again “IMBALANCE”. It makes no sense to justify an imbalance with another imbalance.

Null field IS truly awesome. Just consider it has almost the effect of 2 Necromancer wells with less cooldown. The fact that you don’t use it or that you don’t use the torch with the condition removal trait, doesn’t mean that Mesmers are weak at removing condition or that they have no options to do so. There are some professions who are specifically designed to manage conditions and some other who have good condition removal, but this doesn’t mean that Mesmers have no tool to remove conditions and, to be honest, considering all the defensive capabilities mesmer have, it actually need some rework to be considered balanced.
For instance, Blurried Frenzy seriously need to be looked at. Shatter mechanic needs some tweaking too. Of course there are some builds which can use a buff, but don’t use it as an excuse to justify the builds which are clearly overperforming over the average.
Mesmers need their defensive capability to be reworked and, probably, to be more related to their trait to be truly effective.

Just to say, if you run a completely glass cannon Mesmer, you are less likely to die compared to (for instance) a glass cannon Necromancer, just because the Necromancer will just stay there in place taking all the damage because he has no tool to avoid them. This is the whole point.

And necros are getting some buffs (most likely getting portal!) And other movement buffs as well! And the reason some classes can do certain things that other classes can’t is the entire point of team play! And I tell you right now ele and guardian are way more required to have on a team then a Mesmer… And yes it really does rely on managing clones… because if you dodge roll or do something that destroys a clone without shattering it then you just wasted that illusion and have hurt yourself… Blurred frenzy is a great skill don’t get me wrong… But other classes get things that are similar (AS I HAVE SHOWN AND YOU IGNORED!) Pistol whip thieves and Sword/dagger + Shortbow rangers 4 evades in two weapon sets and by the time a ranger uses all those evades his first one is back off of C/D (and they are buffing GS for rangers too look at that!) Mesmers reliable damage mitigation (the block from scepter/sword just block one attack and still leave us in melee therefore=/=reliable) is from blurred frenzy/Phase retreat/and distortion which is reliant on illusion management for max potential. And rangers are lucky their pets health bar is in plain view… Ours… We have no clue how close it is to dying or not. And for the love of god we have already had a nerf in the area of no summon on blind/invuln there is one nerf for you kitten. And in the current team set ups a necro is still going to be harder to kill than most mesmers (and a lot of necro’s run bunker builds) which makes them even harder to kill. And once again because of the lack of survivability in a team fight of a Mesmer bunker build (yes they exist) mesmers are pigeon holed into this build that everybody hates for tournies.

And Mesmer nullfield DOES NOT have the effect of the necromancer wells. The wells are WAY MORE POWERFUL because instead of just removing they convert… So instead of nullifying all a guardians boons bam they are all conditions and that guardian=dead.

jportell.2197:

And necros are getting some buffs (most likely getting portal!) And other movement buffs as well! And the reason some classes can do certain things that other classes can’t is the entire point of team play! And I tell you right now ele and guardian are way more required to have on a team then a Mesmer… And yes it really does rely on managing clones… because if you dodge roll or do something that destroys a clone without shattering it then you just wasted that illusion and have hurt yourself… Blurred frenzy is a great skill don’t get me wrong… But other classes get things that are similar (AS I HAVE SHOWN AND YOU IGNORED!) Pistol whip thieves and Sword/dagger + Shortbow rangers 4 evades in two weapon sets and by the time a ranger uses all those evades his first one is back off of C/D (and they are buffing GS for rangers too look at that!) Mesmers reliable damage mitigation (the block from scepter/sword just block one attack and still leave us in melee therefore=/=reliable) is from blurred frenzy/Phase retreat/and distortion which is reliant on illusion management for max potential. And rangers are lucky their pets health bar is in plain view… Ours… We have no clue how close it is to dying or not. And for the love of god we have already had a nerf in the area of no summon on blind/invuln there is one nerf for you kitten. And in the current team set ups a necro is still going to be harder to kill than most mesmers (and a lot of necro’s run bunker builds) which makes them even harder to kill. And once again because of the lack of survivability in a team fight of a Mesmer bunker build (yes they exist) mesmers are pigeon holed into this build that everybody hates for tournies.

And Mesmer nullfield DOES NOT have the effect of the necromancer wells. The wells are WAY MORE POWERFUL because instead of just removing they convert… So instead of nullifying all a guardians boons bam they are all conditions and that guardian=dead.

No, the fact that every team require a Mesmer due to portal isn’t teamplay, it is just imbalance. Teamplay is when a profession plays a role that almost every profession can play, at least in Guild Wars 2, or it would be pointless to remove the holy trinity if now you need Mesmers instead of Monks in every team to have some chances.

Your illusions are, in the worse case, at 20s cooldown. Destroying an illusion thanks to a dodge roll isn’t that horrible if you can cast that illusion again in a matter of seconds.

No, you have shown that Rangers have evades, but, as I’ve pointed out and YOU IGNORED, Ranger evades lasts at best 1/2 a second. This means that to get the 2s invulnerability Mesmers have, they have to cast 4 of their skills. Now, sum all the cooldowns of those skills and look how Blurried Frenzy is imbalanced.

You still ignore the fact that you can summon a certain illusion every kittening 20s. Don’t act like you don’t know that. Who cares you can’t see the life bar of an entity which can be respawned few seconds later?

Mesmer Null Field has actually better effects. It removes multiple boons and multiple conditions per pulse, while the wells convert just one condition/boon and needs a trait to be casted from range, plus they have higher recharge.
This means that in the best case, 1-2 boons get converted, then the target will be most likely out of the well while, with Null Field, at worse case, you strip 3 boons (as I showed you in the video) and on a lower cooldown.
Null Field is 2 wells packed in one with less cooldown, which can be casted from range (1200 VS 900 of wells when traited) which removes multiple boons/conditions per pulse with the only downside that he does not convert them. Also, I think you should take a look at the boon converting tables in the wiki, because they aren’t exactly directedly converted.

The fact that Mesmers are pideholed in that build means again “imbalance”.
This can mean two things:

1. That build is too powerful compared to the others making the other ones not worth to be played.
2. Other builds are too weak to be played.

I think the first one is the case, feel free to believe the second one but, in both cases, the Mesmer is imbalanced.

Don’t know why people are still arguing over this. Mesmer is so easy to deal with in pvp. Most go a shatter build, just dodge roll the shatters and now they are stuck on cool downs, kill them off there. Also I think people miss the fact of how easy it is to kill the illusions even with illusion buffs when traited. I think the main complainers are people who are either trolling, or were just beaten in pvp against one because they can’t roll. I rarely see Mesmer’s use portal or illusion of life In hot joins. My solution, bring back the old Mesmer mechanics of denial and interrupts and hexes! O3O Seriously though Mesmer’s are to kitten easy to kill and you don’t need them in tournaments, my team doesn’t use one and we do just fine, although I play as the bunker Ele and can just sit there and watch someone try and kill me and lololololol at them because they can’t bring my health bar down. All classes have serious problems, for one theres very few builds. Most Mesmer’s are stuck with shatter builds because of how fast phantasms die, and Ele’s are stuck with the kitten bunker build. Seriously though, have anyone here who is complaining about the Mesmer ever try leveling one? It’s the slowest kitten thing in the game till level 40. So herding Mesmer in PvP nerfs it in PvE and you just make the class worse and worse.