Guild Wars 2

I just had a bad bad experience against a duo mesmer + ranger, his skill counted but mine was left in another world. there was nothing i could do to prevent getting stomped. He pulled me with the wall, immobilize, not even the time to change to the staff to cast number 4 that he feared me with the wolf, knockback, illusion explode and dead. Worst experience ever. This all in about 5 seconds. Is there a counter to these situation for my beloved necro?

On the topic of Vigor. All classes except Necromancer have atleast 1 source of Vigor and other ways to restore endurance.

Engineer – Adrenaline Pump-Gain 10% of your endurance when using a tool belt skill.Elixir R – Remove conditions and refill endurance. Adrenal Implant – Endurance regenerates 50% faster.Elixir H – Change to gain Vigor. Invigorating Speed – When you gain swiftness, gain 5 seconds of Vigor. Engineers can have perma Swiftness + Vigor.

Warrior – Building Momentum – Burst skills restore endurance. Furious Reaction – Gain Vigor (10 seconds) when taking more than 10% of your health in a single hit. Vigorous Focus – Gain Vigor when using a stance. Call to Arms – 10 seconds of Vigor 20 second CD, can be reduced by 20%. Signet of Stamina – Gain faster endurance regen.

Guardian – Save yourselves – Gain lots of boons including Vigor. Vigorous Precision – Gain Vigor for 5 seconds when you crit. 5 second cd.

Thief – Signet of Agility – Refill endurance and cure condis. *Wild Strike – Strike your foe gain 10% endurance. Felines Grace – Dodging returns some endurance. Bountiful Theft – Stealing grants Vigor for 15 seconds. Vigorous Recovery – Gain Vigor when using a heal.

Mesmer – Critical Infusion – 5 seconds of Vigor on crit. Vigorous Revelation – Shattering illusions grants Vigor to allies. Sirens Call – Chance to apply Vigor.

Elementalist – Arcane Energy – Arcane and signet skills restore 25% endurance when used. Soothing Disruption – Cantrips grant Regen and Vigor. Renewing Stamina – Gain Vigor on crit. Heat Wave – Burns and grants Vigor. Phoenix – Removes conditions and grants Vigor. Zephyrs Focus – Endurance regenerates 100% faster while channeling. Vigorous Scepter – Endurance regenerates faster while wielding a scepter.

Ranger – Nautral Vigor – Increases endurance regen by 50%. Lightning Reflexes – Evade and gain Vigor. Primal Reflexes – Gain Vigor when struck by a critical hit. Vigorous Renewal – Gain Vigor when using a heal. Vigorous Training – Moa, Birds, and Jellys grant Vigor to allies when summoned.

Necromancer – * Cough * …* crickets * .. Nothing!!!!!

Edit. I had no idea how bad we really had it until I typed this up. Elementalist has 7 ways to gain Vigor or regain Endurance, we have 0. What am I missing here? How did this go un noticed?

I’d also like to add that Necros and Guardians are the only classes that don’t have a trait that give us Swiftness. NONE of Necro weapon skills give AOE Swiftness. ALL of Guardian weapon skills give AOE Swiftness. I don’t even want to get into Stability.

Copenhagen.7015:

On the topic of Vigor. All classes except Necromancer have atleast 1 source of Vigor and other ways to restore endurance.

Engineer – Adrenaline Pump-Gain 10% of your endurance when using a tool belt skill.Elixir R – Remove conditions and refill endurance. Adrenal Implant – Endurance regenerates 50% faster.Elixir H – Change to gain Vigor. Invigorating Speed – When you gain swiftness, gain 5 seconds of Vigor. Engineers can have perma Swiftness + Vigor.

Warrior – Building Momentum – Burst skills restore endurance. Furious Reaction – Gain Vigor (10 seconds) when taking more than 10% of your health in a single hit. Vigorous Focus – Gain Vigor when using a stance. Call to Arms – 10 seconds of Vigor 20 second CD, can be reduced by 20%. Signet of Stamina – Gain faster endurance regen.

Guardian – Save yourselves – Gain lots of boons including Vigor. Vigorous Precision – Gain Vigor for 5 seconds when you crit. 5 second cd.

Thief – Signet of Agility – Refill endurance and cure condis. *Wild Strike – Strike your foe gain 10% endurance. Felines Grace – Dodging returns some endurance. Bountiful Theft – Stealing grants Vigor for 15 seconds. Vigorous Recovery – Gain Vigor when using a heal.

Mesmer – Critical Infusion – 5 seconds of Vigor on crit. Vigorous Revelation – Shattering illusions grants Vigor to allies. Sirens Call – Chance to apply Vigor.

Elementalist – Arcane Energy – Arcane and signet skills restore 25% endurance when used. Soothing Disruption – Cantrips grant Regen and Vigor. Renewing Stamina – Gain Vigor on crit. Heat Wave – Burns and grants Vigor. Phoenix – Removes conditions and grants Vigor. Zephyrs Focus – Endurance regenerates 100% faster while channeling. Vigorous Scepter – Endurance regenerates faster while wielding a scepter.

Ranger – Nautral Vigor – Increases endurance regen by 50%. Lightning Reflexes – Evade and gain Vigor. Primal Reflexes – Gain Vigor when struck by a critical hit. Vigorous Renewal – Gain Vigor when using a heal. Vigorous Training – Moa, Birds, and Jellys grant Vigor to allies when summoned.

Necromancer – * Cough * …* crickets * .. Nothing!!!!!

Edit. I had no idea how bad we really had it until I typed this up. Elementalist has 7 ways to gain Vigor or regain Endurance, we have 0. What am I missing here? How did this go un noticed?

Without vigor I would not be able to play my beloved ele burst build as a single hit from any profession can literally eat 70-80% of my HP, furthermore….

1)Arcane energy= Nobody use it as you’d have to give up EA, elemental attunement or renewing stamina for it, on top of having to equip signets or arcana..not gonna happen ever…
2)Vigorous scepter= bugged or the actual recharge bonus is close to maybe 10%, again a trait that never get used, same story as arcane energy
3) Zephyr’s focus= same story as above

That leave only 4 effective ways for the ele to obtain vigor…just wanted to clarify it, don’t want devs to think there is an ele player out there using any of those 3 garbage traits

Xehanort.4589:

I just had a bad bad experience against a duo mesmer + ranger, his skill counted but mine was left in another world. there was nothing i could do to prevent getting stomped. He pulled me with the wall, immobilize, not even the time to change to the staff to cast number 4 that he feared me with the wolf, knockback, illusion explode and dead. Worst experience ever. This all in about 5 seconds. Is there a counter to these situation for my beloved necro?

Either preemptively dodge that with a fear mark already placed under your feet or fall back to plague + runes of lyssa.

Btw necros have a lot of good builds (for real) that are simply overlooked.
0 30 20 20 0 for instance is the best side holder build i found so far (was, since now thieves can larcenous strike spam my protection to oblivion).

And most of you will probably laugh at my 30 10 0 0 30 but the combination of spectral walk and flash wurm make it perfectly viable.
(this last build still needs appropriate tpvp testing though)

It’ s not about what a necro can’ t do, it’ s about what you want your necro to miss in order to play the same overused build over and over.

Gryph.8237:

Just cant get over the feeling that the devs dislike this class so much that they nerfed it into the ground. I have not seen this class one time be OP since launch

I call supreme bs, i also happen to be playing since launch and i perfectly remember deathsrhoud lasting twice as much, granting permanent stability, removing all conditions upon activation and soaking up a full un-nerfed mug+c&d+backstab combo.

I’m perfectly fine if they don’t want to give us vigor. It’s just like Engies, they don’t have signets. But if they won’t give us that, then we need to get a huge improve on DS.
Because if the attrition profession is missing vigor, stability and absolute damage ignoring something is wrong, which is the case: we only have a low damage sponge to overcome the damage we receive.

Xehanort.4589:

I just had a bad bad experience against a duo mesmer + ranger, his skill counted but mine was left in another world. there was nothing i could do to prevent getting stomped. He pulled me with the wall, immobilize, not even the time to change to the staff to cast number 4 that he feared me with the wolf, knockback, illusion explode and dead. Worst experience ever. This all in about 5 seconds. Is there a counter to these situation for my beloved necro?

As soon as I see the Temporal Curtain on the ground I immediately switch to staff. Staff 4 is very precious and can be used for too many things. Unfortunately dagger 4 is too slow with too long of a cast time to get you out of the immobilize in time. You can also pop Spectral Walk and run away from the Curtain. Or try to out range it in general. I specifically watch for the Illusionary Leap. It’s very fast, but it can be dodged. The problem with Mesmers is there are too many things to dodge, and we can’t dodge very much. Illusionary Leap + Blurred Frenzy + shatter is a big problem for us if we get caught in it. We can’t fear the Mesmer because of Blurred Frenzy, we can only blind, go plague form, go DS, or clear the immobilize. No Blocks, No Immune, stun break doesn’t work on immobilize, but it should because its too powerful IMO. There is also no shame in burning your Consume Conditions if it gets you out of the immobilize. Because if you get caught in that combo you’ll have less than half health.

The speed at which a mesmer can recreate their burst is troubling for Nerco’s, well for anyone. When you compare it to say how long we have to wait between well bombs… huge difference.

Well cooldowns are completely ridiculous. Even when traited, I would still consider most well cooldowns too long.

Im sure its been said here already….. but why are cast times so slow for Necros? Its a fast paced game if we are focus fired we cant even fight back and must go full run mode.

They should give us atleast the time to react though. a normal person perception and reaction time is about 1,2 seconds. If a mesmer bombs me and get me downed in say 4 seconds it takes 1,2s to understand what’s happening and what to do; 0.5 sec to change weapon; about 1,2 sec to cast the mark (0.75s cast time + 0.5s ground targeting) and the time i get out of wtf whats happening I’m about dead. I call that OP also because immobilize its a death sentence for my hp pool or my DS pool (if i have it).

Iceflame.5024:

I would like to point out that Necro’s way of damage mitigation is facetanking and it’s kind of a really difficult tanking mechanic to balance since it is “relative” as in its effectiveness is relative to the number of damage sources that are attacking you:

Some examples of what I mean:
If the facetanking capability is enough for 1v1 then it begins to drastically suffer the more sources are attacking you so it becomes unreliable and ineffective in these situations. If the facetanking capability is effective enough to be reliable in a situation against multiple attackers(let’s say for example 4), then it becomes OP in the situation with less attackers. So as a result the facetanking capability(LF pool, LF generation as well as DS CD) ideally needs to be a dynamic variable that changes depending on the number of attackers if you want it to be equally effective in all situations. We are in a situation where our facetanking capability is not OP in 1v1 and so it’s in the state where its efficiency drastically drops with 2 or more sources attacking you. Facetanking does not prevent you from being CCed in our case either.
….

So you can see that facetanking efficiency is a relative thing. If we talk about blocks, invulnerabilities, evades and other stuff, they are absolute. They ignore all the damage and effects that are flying towards you in a short time and they do not care about the number of damage sources. And we have a game where a lot of classes have these mechanics that are absolute at mitigating damage.

All in all I think that if you want Necro to be in a somewhat ideal spot, the only way to achieve it would be a huge freaking redesign.

I had the exact same thought. I don’t think there needs to be a “huge freaking redesign”, but the new DS5 skill could introduce a mechanic that allows exactly that:
LF generation, relative to the amount of opponents you have to deal with.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/DS5-focus-should-not-be-a-new-condition/

Sorry but it will be a new condition. According to ANET the game needs it. And the condition will not give life force regen because it will be available to other classes since we cant have nice things. Wouldnt say more life force is an amazing change either..we already have a life force drain on our DS. I’d go for something that procs on applications of bleeding, which is obviously good for condi necros but also gives power necros more reason to go into the crit traits (as well as being useful on many other classes and boosting the relative weakness of bleeding). This aint the thread for that though. DS5 shouldnt be the one true skill to bring us up to par anyway. Survivability should come from more prot/stability/lifestealing.

I know there is going to be a new condition.
Clearly you didn’t read the suggestion in the link I posted.
It says the focus shouldn’t be the new condition. And nowhere did I say that the condition itself would generate lifeforce.

Survivability through lifestealing… no. That’s exactly the point that Iceflame made as well. If we can steal enough life from a group of people to stay alive, then we will be immensely overpowered in 1v1s.

flow.6043:

I had the exact same thought. I don’t think there needs to be a “huge freaking redesign”, but the new DS5 skill could introduce a mechanic that allows exactly that:
LF generation, relative to the amount of opponents you have to deal with.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/..../necromancer/DS5-focus-should-not-be-a-….

stop the spam on your thread. Its a bad idea anyway

I think the problem is we dont have enough conditions. And it is a serious problem as this meta develops. They need to give us access to burning and confusion and other conditions.

The problem is the most common builds emerging are:

1, BM ranger – immune to a condition necro – as in they will beat you with 100% health because they cure 4 condis every 10 seconds without even having to think about it. It isnt possible for us to cover our bleed stack so it doesnt get removed and 10 seconds isnt enough time to really do much damage with our current conditions (espicially when they can perma dodge).

2, Sword thieves – again an impossible class for us to touch as a condition necro. We are literally just auto kills for the sword thief which again has an insane amount of dodges and condition removal. This build is probably the least fun build to play against that I have seen in this game

3, Ele – actually a class we can hurt due to corrupt boon and their condition removal. Still they have alot of it.

4, Engi – a class we are 50:50 against – although their self res and elite gives them a clear 1v1 advantage that pretty much cant be overcome (if they have these skills up).

5, Guardian – Converts your conditions to boons and removes them ON EVERYONE with shouts. Thus making it very hard for your bleed stacks to stay on a target.

6, Warriors – we can hurt these at least

7, Mesmer – again we can hurt these

As the current meta develops I am finding it hard to see a role for the necro. At all. I am tempted to run my warrior again tbh. Maybe it is time to role a power build.

Lordrosicky.5813:

I think the problem is we dont have enough conditions. And it is a serious problem as this meta develops. They need to give us access to burning and confusion and other conditions.

The problem is the most common builds emerging are:

1, BM ranger – immune to a condition necro – as in they will beat you with 100% health because they cure 4 condis every 10 seconds without even having to think about it. It isnt possible for us to cover our bleed stack so it doesnt get removed and 10 seconds isnt enough time to really do much damage with our current conditions (espicially when they can perma dodge).

2, Sword thieves – again an impossible class for us to touch as a condition necro. We are literally just auto kills for the sword thief which again has an insane amount of dodges and condition removal. This build is probably the least fun build to play against that I have seen in this game

3, Ele – actually a class we can hurt due to corrupt boon and their condition removal. Still they have alot of it.

4, Engi – a class we are 50:50 against – although their self res and elite gives them a clear 1v1 advantage that pretty much cant be overcome (if they have these skills up).

5, Guardian – Converts your conditions to boons and removes them ON EVERYONE with shouts. Thus making it very hard for your bleed stacks to stay on a target.

6, Warriors – we can hurt these at least

7, Mesmer – again we can hurt these

As the current meta develops I am finding it hard to see a role for the necro. At all. I am tempted to run my warrior again tbh. Maybe it is time to role a power build.

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flow.6043:

Survivability through lifestealing… no. That’s exactly the point that Iceflame made as well. If we can steal enough life from a group of people to stay alive, then we will be immensely overpowered in 1v1s.

Lifesteal is something quite unique to the necromancer, leaving it in its petty state is a an affront to the entire necro class. You and that flame guy i havent heard or care about think they should just give up on it? There can be more things changed about lifesteal than you guys managed to think about, trust me. And yeah, lets not ruin the amazing 1v1 balance, just leave those traits crap kk.

Btw the link is ‘why ds5 shouldnt be a condition’. We all know its going to be a condition anyway. So /care.

flow.6043:

Survivability through lifestealing… no. That’s exactly the point that Iceflame made as well. If we can steal enough life from a group of people to stay alive, then we will be immensely overpowered in 1v1s.

I didn’t really put any thought into lifestealing, was just thinking about LF.

GankSinatra.2653:

Lifesteal is something quite unique to the necromancer, leaving it in its petty state is a an affront to the entire necro class. You and that flame guy i havent heard or care about think they should just give up on it? There can be more things changed about lifesteal than you guys managed to think about, trust me. And yeah, lets not ruin the amazing 1v1 balance, just leave those traits crap kk.

Btw the link is ‘why ds5 shouldnt be a condition’. We all know its going to be a condition anyway. So /care.

Aw, come on man. I actually agree with your point that it is quite sad that necro has a whole trait line with a lifesteal theme to it and it’s crap, heh. Our dark field wells actually also give lifesteal through projectile finishers but you know…. only 20% chance on our staff……

So yeah, I just pointed out the facetanking thing thinking solely about DS and LF. Lifestealing might be something similar though.

JonathanSharp.7094:

This month will be focused on bug fixes, with balance coming in later patches!

Necromancer
Well of Corruption skill: Updated damage skill fact to indicate the correct number of attacks.
Well of Suffering skill:
Updated damage skill fact to indicate the correct number of attacks.
Updated the number of attacks to be consistent when affected by Focused Rituals.
Spinal Shivers skill: Updated damage facts to indicate damage dealt based on boons removed.
Signet of Spite skill: Updated the skill facts to indicate the passive effect of this skill. Increased the passive power boost by 100%.
Corrupt Boon skill: No longer causes odd interactions with Aegis. Now unblockable.
Epidemic skill: Now unblockable.
Flesh Wurm minion: Increased health by 25%.
Flesh Golem minion: Increased health by 25% and toughness by 10%.
Lich Form skill: The Grim Specter skill now strips boons from enemies and conditions from allies when it reaches its target point instead of only when the missile hits a target.

we already had bug fixing last month, and it was awful (80% just text fixing)
other classes got balance (nerfs and buffs), thief got new skill, ranger better stats on pets, etc.

it’s obvious you dont put too much effort on necro as you put on other classes. If we get “bug fixes” when others get balance, we should get balance (buff in this case) when other classes get bug fixing.

I’m asking for too much, maybe?

vicious.5683:

JonathanSharp.7094:

This month will be focused on bug fixes, with balance coming in later patches!

Necromancer
Well of Corruption skill: Updated damage skill fact to indicate the correct number of attacks.
Well of Suffering skill:
Updated damage skill fact to indicate the correct number of attacks.
Updated the number of attacks to be consistent when affected by Focused Rituals.
Spinal Shivers skill: Updated damage facts to indicate damage dealt based on boons removed.
Signet of Spite skill: Updated the skill facts to indicate the passive effect of this skill. Increased the passive power boost by 100%.
Corrupt Boon skill: No longer causes odd interactions with Aegis. Now unblockable.
Epidemic skill: Now unblockable.
Flesh Wurm minion: Increased health by 25%.
Flesh Golem minion: Increased health by 25% and toughness by 10%.
Lich Form skill: The Grim Specter skill now strips boons from enemies and conditions from allies when it reaches its target point instead of only when the missile hits a target.

we already had bug fixing last month, and it was awful (80% just text fixing)
other classes got balance (nerfs and buffs), thief got new skill, ranger better stats on pets, etc.

it’s obvious you dont put too much effort on necro as you put on other classes. If we get “bug fixes” when others get balance, we should get balance (buff in this case) when other classes get bug fixing.

I’m asking for too much, maybe?

It might be that our class is such a mess that changing something is agonizing for the coders and they tremble in fear and cold sweat in hope that they don’t ever need to touch the necromancer class. Or they realize that the design of the class is so bad that it needs a whole overhaul and cannot publicly acknowledge it so they need to keep these kind of posts and “patch changes” up. I doubt that a class that had a huge redesign and then had a huge pack of nerfs(both of these were probably made under the pressure of deadlines so they have most likely been rushed) can ever be in a good place without huge and well thought through changes. I came here form WOW after hearing that this is supposed to be a PVP focused game, prioritizing sPVP. In WOW they are limited to the changes they can make to a class since they have to take into account both the PVP and PVE aspect of the game and they prioritize PVE which sometimes leads to completely senseless changes. Seems the problem exists for this game too which is saddening.

What if the new condition was like an Unstable Affliction from WoW. A condition thats just used to cover your other conditions and has a negative effect if it is removed, like maybe a fear or daze. That would mix things up a bit. Make other classes think twice about speccing into passive condition clears which have become standard in most builds. It would make guardians and eles think twice before spamming condition clears on their teammates during a teamfight.

Of course this would need a pretty decent cooldown because Condi removal is a big part of this game.

GankSinatra.2653:

Lifesteal is something quite unique to the necromancer, leaving it in its petty state is a an affront to the entire necro class. You and that flame guy i havent heard or care about think they should just give up on it? There can be more things changed about lifesteal than you guys managed to think about, trust me. And yeah, lets not ruin the amazing 1v1 balance, just leave those traits crap kk.

Btw the link is ‘why ds5 shouldnt be a condition’. We all know its going to be a condition anyway. So /care.

Actually the link says “DS5 focus should not…”, but whatever.

I never said that life siphoning is good as it is… because it isn’t, you’re absolutely right about that.
My point was, that lifestealing alone can only increase survivablitly in 1 vs many at the cost of completely overpowering us in 1v1s.
And the fact that you havn’t heard or care about someone doesn’t discedit their argument.

Lordrosicky.5813:

1, BM ranger – immune to a condition necro
2, Sword thieves – again an impossible class for us to touch as a condition necro.
3, Ele – actually a class we can hurt due to corrupt boon and their condition removal.
4, Engi – a class we are 50:50 against
5, Guardian –
6, Warriors – we can hurt these at least
7, Mesmer – again we can hurt these

You are giving way to little credit to mesmers.
BM-Rangers and Sword-Thieves, there are so many different condition builds for the necro, I asure you some of them can handle those builds rather easily.
Also, the build diversity of all classes inevitably creates a rock-paper-scissor system to some extent.

Lordrosicky.5813:

I think the problem is we dont have enough conditions. And it is a serious problem as this meta develops. They need to give us access to burning and confusion and other conditions.

The problem is the most common builds emerging are:

1, BM ranger – immune to a condition necro – as in they will beat you with 100% health because they cure 4 condis every 10 seconds without even having to think about it. It isnt possible for us to cover our bleed stack so it doesnt get removed and 10 seconds isnt enough time to really do much damage with our current conditions (espicially when they can perma dodge).

2, Sword thieves – again an impossible class for us to touch as a condition necro. We are literally just auto kills for the sword thief which again has an insane amount of dodges and condition removal. This build is probably the least fun build to play against that I have seen in this game

3, Ele – actually a class we can hurt due to corrupt boon and their condition removal. Still they have alot of it.

4, Engi – a class we are 50:50 against – although their self res and elite gives them a clear 1v1 advantage that pretty much cant be overcome (if they have these skills up).

5, Guardian – Converts your conditions to boons and removes them ON EVERYONE with shouts. Thus making it very hard for your bleed stacks to stay on a target.

6, Warriors – we can hurt these at least

7, Mesmer – again we can hurt these

As the current meta develops I am finding it hard to see a role for the necro. At all. I am tempted to run my warrior again tbh. Maybe it is time to role a power build.

Warrior is even worse.

I think that the new condition can help us but, at the same time, it won’t do it so much since it won’t be necromancer specific U.U

So, to sum it up:
1- Let’s see how things changes after the new condition comes out.

2-Then, take a serious look at our trait lines (you will need to do this anyway because of the new condition) and clean that mess a bit PLEASE.

3- If after doing those things we are still subpar, we can start to figure out how to improve DS to become more than a low damage sponge.

Anet are in to their incremental balance tweaks.

In game lifesteal is useless in bust meta.

Lets see some incremental buffs to lifesteal until it gains a minimum viability atleast.

This would ofc have to be separated from pve scalings.

This would atleast be a start of something.

JonathanSharp.7094:

This month will be focused on bug fixes, with balance coming in later patches!

I’ve always wondered why bug fixing wasn’t the main focus from the start? How can you balance anything when there’s a metric ton of bugs across professions unadressed.
When you do the bug fixing after balancing , it’s going to affect the balance again.
I just don’t get it.

Necro: 25 point power trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Siphoned_Power
Thief: 25 point power trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exposed_Weakness

Can Devs even see this imbalance???

I don’t play with a necro, but that siphoned power trait seems pretty bad. Granted, necros aren’t the only ones to get really bad traits, even at higher tiers.

vicious.5683:

Necro: 25 point power trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Siphoned_Power
Thief: 25 point power trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exposed_Weakness

Can Devs even see this imbalance???

Even if they do they won’t fix it with the upcoming patch as the patch will primarily fix bugs. I also don’t think they still do.

vicious.5683:

Necro: 25 point power trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Siphoned_Power
Thief: 25 point power trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exposed_Weakness

Can Devs even see this imbalance???

Oh yeah, the imbalance is ridiculous.

Oblivion.8307:

Oh yeah, the imbalance is ridiculous.

Look at the traitline
Jeez! It is on the Condition Damage traitline!

Look at the effect
My god! You need 5 different conditions on your target to have the same damage bonus the Thief has with any condition!

sorrow.2364:

Oblivion.8307:

Oh yeah, the imbalance is ridiculous.

Look at the traitline
Jeez! It is on the Condition Damage traitline!

Look at the effect
My god! You need 5 different conditions on your target to have the same damage bonus the Thief has with any condition!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack_of_Opportunity – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Rage – Power Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Power – Healing/Vit Line (boon related but w/e)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Radiant_Power – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_of_the_Virtuous – Boon Duration line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Target_the_Maimed – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Energy_Conversion_Matrix Vit/Boon Duration line

Stop acting like you’re the victim, each class has their own boon/condition % damage increase except mesmer/ranger.

Oblivion.8307:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack_of_Opportunity – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Rage – Power Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Power – Healing/Vit Line (boon related but w/e)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Radiant_Power – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_of_the_Virtuous – Boon Duration line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Target_the_Maimed – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Energy_Conversion_Matrix Vit/Boon Duration line

Stop acting like you’re the victim, each class has their own boon/condition % damage increase except mesmer/ranger.

I think you are evidencing even more here that we are right:

1 – Warrior trait increase its damage on 10% only with having bleed on target, which almost always proc if you have invested 25 points on that trait line.

2 – Elementalist trait increase its damage on 5% only with having burning on target, which its perfect because you have invested 25 points on the Fire trait line.

3 – The second elementalist trait is even more good, because you go deep on a trait line for being a harder guy and you still get damage.

4 – The guardian one of radiant, the Jewel of the Crown, 10% flat increase damage on any condition…. I think I don’t need to explain why this is really good.

5 – The second guardian’s one (virtues line) is, again, like the water elementalist’s one: it increases your damage for having boons, which on guardian is really easy to have at least 2+ boons all the time and guess what, that trait is placed on virtues CDR and BDI… nuff said.

6 – Engineer’s firearm trait: again a flat damage increase for only having one condition: +5% on enemies with bleed (if devs wanted to change our trait and make something like this, I would sign it really fast).

7 – Engineer’s alchemy trait: the same as above, it gives you damage when you are going into tanking line, and evenmore, minor traits on this line gives you Elixir B on 75% HP and a chance (very little but still counts) of converting incoming conditions into boons, with the result of having more damage for each one.

I think this highlights that we need a serious look on our traits, maybe Target the weak is not that bad if they take a look on our other traits and reorganise them, but we still need a look.

PS.: I think almost every necromancer out there thinks that Siphoned Power, Reanimator and Dark Armor sucks

Iceflame.5024:

Aw, come on man. I actually agree with your point thakitten is quite sad that necro has a whole trait line with a lifesteal theme to it and it’s crap, heh. Our dark field wells actually also give lifesteal through projectile finishers but you know…. only 20% chance on our staff……

So yeah, I just pointed out the facetanking thing thinking solely about DS and LF. Lifestealing might be something similar though.

My apologies if i came on strong, i just see a lot of ‘but BIG NAME GUY totally agrees with me!’ on the necro forums. I think i actually remember a really good thread you made about lifesteal.

Oblivion.8307:

sorrow.2364:

Oblivion.8307:

Oh yeah, the imbalance is ridiculous.

Look at the traitline
Jeez! It is on the Condition Damage traitline!

Look at the effect
My god! You need 5 different conditions on your target to have the same damage bonus the Thief has with any condition!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack_of_Opportunity – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Rage – Power Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Power – Healing/Vit Line (boon related but w/e)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Radiant_Power – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_of_the_Virtuous – Boon Duration line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Target_the_Maimed – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Energy_Conversion_Matrix Vit/Boon Duration line

Stop acting like you’re the victim, each class has their own boon/condition % damage increase except mesmer/ranger.

Have you read what you linked?
What do you exactly want to prove here? Because after I read the description of the traits you have linked to me, I think you want to support my argument.

sorrow.2364:

Oblivion.8307:

sorrow.2364:

Oblivion.8307:

Oh yeah, the imbalance is ridiculous.

Look at the traitline
Jeez! It is on the Condition Damage traitline!

Look at the effect
My god! You need 5 different conditions on your target to have the same damage bonus the Thief has with any condition!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack_of_Opportunity – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Rage – Power Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Power – Healing/Vit Line (boon related but w/e)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Radiant_Power – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_of_the_Virtuous – Boon Duration line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Target_the_Maimed – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Energy_Conversion_Matrix Vit/Boon Duration line

Stop acting like you’re the victim, each class has their own boon/condition % damage increase except mesmer/ranger.

Have you read what you linked?
What do you exactly want to prove here? Because after I read the description of the traits you have linked to me, I think you want to support my argument.

‘Oh i need 5 conditions to do as much damage, however have the potential for it to be increased by 22%’

The fact is other classes are in similar positions and have this trait located in condition based lines.

Oblivion.8307:

‘Oh i need 5 conditions to do as much damage, however have the potential for it to be increased by 22%’

The fact is other classes are in similar positions and have this trait located in condition based lines.

You might want to spectate a condition necro…then come back here and report how often this “22% potential” is realized.

Warning…you may need to spectate a necro for 8 hours and use a stop watch that calculates 10ths of a second just to find 1 total minute of +22% damage.

Next…spectate a thief and watch how often his 10% from just a 25 pt trait is realized.

To me…it seems pretty obvious that either the Thief trait is overbudget or the necro trait is underbudget.

Unless of course, you’re the type of person who would exchange a guaranteed $100/day for the rest of your life for a lottery ticket instead.

I understand the thief trait is more consistent and offers a lot more sustained damage, overall it’s better, yeah. However to say necromancer’s the only class with this issue of this one minor trait is fairly ignorant. In a group setting with an engineer, 5 conditions shouldn’t really be much of a problem. I’ve even stated before I’d wish they’d swap the 25 pt minors for spite/curses. However to just compare it with the thief and not other classes is just plain ignorant. Such as comparing the ranger minor trait that gives 50% endurance regen with the engineer grandmaster major with the exact same. This isn’t the core problem of the necromancer, it’s a minor issue but it’s not a core issue. I’d rather focus on things that will buff the necromancer into viability instead of childish squabbling of ‘this class has xxx, whinewhinewhine’.

You might want to spectate a condition necro…then come back here and report how often this “22% potential” is realized.

and you might want to realise who you are talking to like that xD
And just saying, when i play necro i have pretty much perma bleed, perma poison, perma weakness and perma chill up, thats 4 conditions from me already, so 8%.
And the necro has much more pressure from his conditions than thief so ofcourse the +% dmg trait is different….

Blackmoa.3186:

You might want to spectate a condition necro…then come back here and report how often this “22% potential” is realized.

and you might want to realise who you are talking to like that xD
And just saying, when i play necro i have pretty much perma bleed, perma poison, perma weakness and perma chill up, thats 4 conditions from me already, so 8%.
And the necro has much more pressure from his conditions than thief so ofcourse the +% dmg trait is different….

I think what he is saying is that the minor trait is misplaced. It is a power trait which benefits from power/direct damage being higher. And yet it lies deep within the condition trait line. It doesn’t really make sense. There are quite a few traits like this on all classes but necro its particularly badly designed imo.

I would like to see this minor trait swapped with the 25 trait in the power tree (which can then be reworked to: Gain 3 stacks of might at 50% health).

I agree with those saying it is a minor issue though. And I agree with those saying that comparing classes in such a like for like manner is futile because balance still needs variety for the game to remain fun.

Lordrosicky.5813:

I agree with those saying it is a minor issue though. And I agree with those saying that comparing classes in such a like for like manner is futile because balance still needs variety for the game to remain fun.

What he said.

There are far more important things to debate than this. The Necro traits in general could use some change pretty much in every line, so why focus on this one that is actually better than some (3 IMO, but you could argue thakitten is the best of the GM minors) of the other Grand Master minors already?

Most of what can/should be done is already in this thread at this point. Unless there are items that we get more specific on to help the dev team there isn’t much more to be said.

In that vein I’d like to address a few weapon issues specifically (again)

Focus #5 – Great skill effect, horrendous cast time for no apparent reason. There are far better skills, with shorter CD, and shorter casts. It could be 1/4s cast and still not be completely out of line. At least shorten it down to 3/4s if you want to make slow plodding tweaks.

Axe #1 – Why must it be SOOOOOO abysmal? Speed up the attack and make it a chain with higher DPS. At 600 range a 3/4s cast in incongruous with anything useful in the game. Alternatively make it a 900 range. Either would probably make it remotely useful.

Warhorn #5 – Should be swapped with #4 and given a shorter CD. You sacrifice a lot to take a WH as a necro, and the long CD’s make it even harder to justify. In condition builds OH dagger is pretty much required with the Scepter, and both condition and power necros pretty much have to take staff. If you shorten that CD to have a reasonable uptime on swiftness (75% +/-10 % traited) it would be a good start. As it stands if you want swiftness with any reasonable uptime then a utility is the only way to do it. Then you are burning your stun break for swiftness which is really a tough spot to put someone in in conquest.

Staff#1 – Could we perhaps make this not stupid easy to dodge? Make it a beam or increase the projectile speed. If you insist thakitten has to move at a snail’s pace, then make it a 1/2s instead of 3/4s.

The absence of finishers on necro weapons is also a fairly major deficiency that is usually overlooked. A whirl or blast on Axe #3 would be reasonable. A projectile on anything (Staff#1 does not count, b/c it does not hit) wouldn’t be asking a whole lot. Ever since the blast on Mark of Evasion was taken out there really is no way to be efficient with finishing all the fields that get laid out. Every other class can do this with weapons.

Dagger #2- Might be a good candidate for a gap closer. Put a teleport to target on last hit. Doesn’t seem too terribly OP, and would actually give a reason to use #2 much more often instead of spamming autos.

I still feel that a good start to vastly improving the necromancer begins with a drastic reduction in cooldowns and cast times as well as a major overhaul of projectile speeds. From a condition build perspective I can see the synergy that anet was aiming for with the class but they killed it by making our skills have way to much downtime. I really think they intended for our personal damage to be a bit lower than everyone else but in exchange we got a lot of skills that would allow us to take on incoming damage and transfer it back to out target. I’m fine with that to an extent but with the ridiculous cooldown on things like signets and our spectral skills in its current state its too kitten to work effectively. This is not to mention skills like scepter#4, corrupt boon, or focus #4 and #5 which all either cast to slow, have a ungodly slow projectile speed, or become obstructed by a blade of grass often going on long cd with no effect and leaving us loaded with conditions against a fully buffed up target with our main class mechanics gone by the wayside.

Increasing our fears from 1 second to 2 second can go a long way. They would actually be good CC tools. As it stands now, fear is the most countered CC in the game since stun breaks, stability, and condition removal all counter it.

It doesn’t help that condition necros have to use fear to kill their target or prevent the stomp/rez where say an Engineer can use burning to kill and other skills to interrupt stomp/rez.

Lordrosicky.5813:

I think what he is saying is that the minor trait is misplaced. It is a power trait which benefits from power/direct damage being higher. And yet it lies deep within the condition trait line.
…
I would like to see this minor trait swapped with the 25 trait in the power tree (which can then be reworked to: Gain 3 stacks of might at 50% health).

I like the idea for Siphoned Power (which is almost as horrible as Reanimator atm).
Absolutely disagree on swapping it with Target the Weak though.
Many say that this trait is misplaced, but if it was in the Spite line I bet at least as many would argue: why is it in the power-line when you need conditions for it?

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Warhorn #5 – Should be swapped with #4 and given a shorter CD.

What do you mean by “swap with #4”?

Tenderly.7019:

Increasing our fears from 1 second to 2 second can go a long way. They would actually be good CC tools. As it stands now, fear is the most countered CC in the game since stun breaks, stability, and condition removal all counter it.

It doesn’t help that condition necros have to use fear to kill their target or prevent the stomp/rez where say an Engineer can use burning to kill and other skills to interrupt stomp/rez.

2 second, untraited fears would be a bit too far, but if traited fears got an extra 1s without further investment, then I don’t think that would be too bad. I have to say though that Fear should be either a condition OR stun, and not both. Re-working it to fit this description would be tricky given the trait involvement, but allowing both condition cleanse and stun break to break fear is silly considering it already has short duration (unless of course it is Warrior or Thief fear). Stability falls in the same thought process. Either it is a condition and stability has no bearing on it, or it is a stun, and you cannot cleanse it as a condition (just change the DoT from terror to an instant, white damage number and reformulate the math appropriately).

flow.6043:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Warhorn #5 – Should be swapped with #4 and given a shorter CD.

What do you mean by “swap with #4”?

I mean make WH #5 the skill in the WH#4 slot and vice-versa, then shorten the CD on Locust Swarm. The skill being in the 5th slot seems to be the only reason that the CD has to be as long as the CD on Wail of Doom. The duration of daze on Wail can be completely awesome, so I see the need for 30s CD there, but is there a reason that swiftness uptime can’t be better than 33% without HUGE investment? I don’t see a good one. It is a minor thing to “swap” the skills. The reduced CD is the meaningful part.

Tenderly.7019:

Increasing our fears from 1 second to 2 second can go a long way.

With that change a terror build would have a standard 3-4 second fear on every fear skill. That’s like ~5k damage for fear alone.

Tenderly.7019:

As it stands now, fear is the most countered CC in the game since stun breaks, stability, and condition removal all counter it.

Stability, stun breaks: yes, but that’s the same for every control effect.
Condi removal: since you’re disabled while feared only an ally could remove it this way.
And most countered… I don’t know, as you said it yourself, the duration isn’t that long. I bet most people just let it tick away rather than wasting a stun break on it.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

flow.6043:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Warhorn #5 – Should be swapped with #4 and given a shorter CD.

What do you mean by “swap with #4”?

I mean make WH #5 the skill in the WH#4 slot and vice-versa, then shorten the CD on Locust Swarm. The skill being in the 5th slot seems to be the only reason that the CD has to be as long as the CD on Wail of Doom. The duration of daze on Wail can be completely awesome, so I see the need for 30s CD there, but is there a reason that swiftness uptime can’t be better than 33% without HUGE investment? I don’t see a good one. It is a minor thing to “swap” the skills. The reduced CD is the meaningful part.

Oh, so you mean just shorten the CD, regardless of which slot it is in.
I guess longer swiftness would be nice too… though the base duration of it coincides with the swarm that surrounds you. And that deals damage, cripples and generates life force.
So would you like both increased or just swiftness?

blood magic need total revamp its useless tree nowadays