Guild Wars 2

So i was wondering why do we have this aoe limit ? for example if 3 brave people trying to hold on against 30 ppl zerg whats wrong if they nuke many dumb people that just standing at the gate and auto attacking and not being aware or thinking at all (some may be even afk) ? those 3 people are already outnumbered + down state + 5 target limit ( that can be mesmer with 3 clones + ranger pet) what kind of philosophy is this, already we have a crappy down state mechanic that favor team with higher number of players.

Only thing that makes fun for me is killing a skilled player or killing many noobs. Arena net is promoting zerging and not small tactical battles, where small, well, prepared, organized group can wipe entire zerg. Maybe you will say it is possible to wipe zerg with small group, but aoe limit and down state is making this extremely hard and game mechanics should favor small organized group and not zerg.

But i guess Anet will not remove down state, but please consider removing aoe limit at least.
Please share your thoughts and suggestions.

Only skills have an AoE limit of 5. While there should be a cap, 5 is definitely too small of one. 10 is more sufficient.

Heijincks.9267:

Only skills have an AoE limit of 5. While there should be a cap, 5 is definitely too small of one. 10 is more sufficient.

I know. It sux to build siege and beg for supply, i like to be mobile and fast, often people don’t help to build siege or don’t have supply. Especially when small group are defending against massive zerg.

I run a very particular longbow Warrior build and it just got buffed significantly this patch. If there weren’t an AoE cap I could most likely solo entire zergs on my own with proper positioning in choke points. And for that reason, I reluctantly support the AoE cap.

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

Do you want to reply to a very prominent problem? ie: Arrowcarts.

Also, how does siege have a limit of 50 people when there are “technical limitations” that stop players from having an aoe limit of 50? I call kitten

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

If this is the case, then why can certain siege weapons have a limit of up to 50?

I bet the limit has something to do with conditions. More conditions on more people = more lag.

Aneu.1748:

Also, how does siege have a limit of 50 people when there are “technical limitations” that stop players from having an aoe limit of 50?

Well, the trigger/handle on the siege is just bigger than the one on your personal weapon. So there.

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

Surely this is something the team can look at for a future update, with the changes to skills, because its slowly making WvW a ZvZ

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

Is that like the technical limitation that you said prevented NA and EU from having different reset times?

Frankly, I really hate the AoE cap. I always thought its just to protect the zerg sheep herd.
Would my client lag more if 30 players get hit by AoE-skills of 5 players?

Chaba.5410:

I bet the limit has something to do with conditions. More conditions on more people = more lag.

Yet the new ac ability will put poison on 50 people.

Niim.9260:

Is that like the technical limitation that you said prevented NA and EU from having different reset times?

Probably. And like that technical reason it can be fixed. The question is: how high of a priority is that as opposed to, say, adding more sign-repairing quests?

;P

Oh goodie, another thread where people make overly simplistic assumptions about technical problems. Subscribed!

If you dont like zerging and the crap of 20-40 guys running around using the #1 button and killing everything, come down to T8, small man tier. 5mans run around every night. Consider it man. Bring your guild. We fight REAL player vs player….none of this player vs door crap and “who can get the most points”…its about pvp down here.

Niim.9260:

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

Is that like the technical limitation that you said prevented NA and EU from having different reset times?

He didn’t say it was unresolvable (as you are insinuating); he simply stated the reason. Hard to understand, I know.

saiyr.3071:

Oh goodie, another thread where people make overly simplistic assumptions about technical problems. Subscribed!

Well how about actually explaining the technical limitations, then people wouldn’t speculate.

morrolan.9608:

Well how about actually explaining the technical limitations, then people wouldn’t speculate.

Openly talking about technical infrastructure and such for a game is quite stupid

I believe conditions are actually the reason for the extreme skill lags in WvW and Boss events. They have to calculate different conditions on every player with up to 25 stacks.

Suggestion – redesign conditions:

Cut condition stacks with new max of 10 or even 5. Up the damage and / or duration, have the buildup slower for balancing. win / win.

easy enough?

If you need anymore input, feel free to hire me.

lordkrall.7241:

morrolan.9608:

Well how about actually explaining the technical limitations, then people wouldn’t speculate.

Because openly talking about technical infrastructure and such for a game is quite stupid?

Well then there is going to be speculation.

I feel a higher AoE cap (10 or 15) would be good. The issue is that in cases of 50 vs. 5 with no AoE cap, those 5 could conceivably wipe the 50 assuming they were in a choke point (like the SMC lord’s room or hills) and had enough damage in their builds. No AoE cap means warriors would be able to stun 20+ people with a single Earthshaker. Now multiply that by at least 5, which is the normal minimum number my guild runs with. It would become very OP very quickly. Imagine a thief being able to skull fear an entire 80 man zerg from stealth over a cliff. Imagine that same thief stealthing 80 people for 12 seconds with Shadow Refuge.

At the moment it’s too easy for enough players to negate AoE through sheer numbers, but there is a tightrope of balance in that a small group should not be able to outright destroy a larger group.

Another modification to the cap: could we have it so that neutral targets (non-red) don’t count towards the AoE cap? In other words, siege, gates, white animals and yellow targets (until they turn red) should not take up that precious spot, as each one negates 20% of your AoE for that pulse.

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

Are you considering expanding aoe limit in the future ? is it technically possible ?

morrolan.9608:

Well then there is going to be speculation.

Of course. Because people are silly.
Even if they told us exactly every single thing in detail people would still speculate.

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

Would it be possible to increase specs or something and bump the cap? Even doubling it would be a significant counter to zergs. If it was up to 15 or 20, most tiers would be satisfied.

I’m also curious how there is a technical limitation there, but mesmers can throw up a bunch of Feedback bubbles, and completely reflect ALL related damage. Wouldn’t that run into the same limitation?

Not that I’m arguing for a nerf, rather that maybe the limitations are not as set in stone as your systems/designer guys may have told you.

There were technical limitations on splitting up the reset times for EU and NA servers.. but those limitation were surpassed. Get on it guys!

Aneu.1748:

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

Do you want to reply to a very prominent problem? ie: Arrowcarts.

Also, how does siege have a limit of 50 people when there are “technical limitations” that stop players from having an aoe limit of 50? I call kitten

I was wondering the same thing for quite long now.

Maybe remove all sieges so we can play our characters?

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

Can you confirm whether this limitation could be overcome like say, culling?

And if so, whether you guys will work towards bumping up the AOE cap?

Or was the arrow cart buff the direct response to that because there is no way AOE cap will be increased for the individual player?

Raising the AoE cap or indeed removing it will discourage stacking, but won’t have a great deal of effect on the initial formation of a zerg. There will always be safety and efficiency in numbers, so it’s only normal that large groups form.

It would be op compared to single target damage. Everybody would roll a strong AE class. Or groups would focus on zerging with retaliation, which would also be op and it would encourage zerging even more. They have to implement a diminishing returns solution where damage scales with the number of targets affected, like WoW (bad word, I know) does.

How playing without an AoE cap would go: A necro casts one well on a blob and then the server crashes due to how they handle condition stacks on the network.

If you remove the AoEcap, people will zerg even more.

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

That’s actually good to know. If things just can’t be done, they can’t be done. No use for us to complain about it further.

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

I totally believe that. The same kind of “technical limitations” that prevented you from separating NA/EU reset times I guess. Oh wait a second…

It would be really cool if people stopped comparing removing the AoE cap with changing reset times to something more reasonable like getting rid of skill lag

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

There used to be no limit to AOE healing, and you guys changed that to stop a particular play style. Why if healing skills can affect more then 5, can we not have Damage AOEs hit say 10 or 15? If its an issue of lag, can’t we compromise and lift the limit to say 15?

I would like to see no limit on the amount of targets but reduced damage the further away you are from the casting point/original target.

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

Is there a way to navigate around this? Or is the current arrow cart set up the answer to having more AoE? Either way I don’t mind, I actually like the new arrow carts.

I would actually prefer the players being able to deal limitless AoE, rather than having it done via arrow carts.

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

Then your “technical limitations” are technically bad for the game and WvW in general and you technically should have thought of that earlier. Now you get to technically fix it.

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

This is dev speak for it’ll be fixed next month, right? Like the siege BP being soul bound and the reset times in NA and EU locked together?

http://www.wowwiki.com/Area_damage_caps
This is the way to fix it (3.3 mechanics). WoW can do it, why can’t you. Simply removing or increasing the cap would be ridiculous and hardly balanced compared to single target damage skills, but a DR solution would actually be sophisticated.

/e: forget that "why can’t you" part, it was just rethorical. Considering the confusion "fix" they "worked out", they’ll just change a single number, which is the cap, instead of really fixing it. Primrose path ftw.

Technical limitations don’t mean that it “can’t” be done, it just means that there’s stuff to work around. We run into technical limitations at my software company all the time, they make brains hurt.

If it’s a resources thing, put it in perspective by thinking about the skill lag in a 50v50v50 battle in the lords room at SM. Those 150 people firing off AoE’s hitting 5 players each are taxing the servers so badly that you, the invader, can walk all the way through the lords room pounding on ‘0’ and never get your elite skill to fire. Often you walk out the other side having taken little to no damage either because you either never rendered at any of those points or some other problem prevented you from ever being included in damage calculations. 20 arrow carts and balistas spamming their multi target hits at the same time is also probably a large culprit.

Now take each of those 150 people hitting up to 5 targets and ask the server to calculate 45 more targets for every skill that does register. In this scenario, want to defend SM? Queue up EBG, have everyone sit in the middle of SM and auto cast AoE’s and go AFK. Guaranteed, no one could ever take it because no attacker’s skills would ever fire.

Probably not as simple as upgrading the server to a faster processor I am guessing or we’d be done by now. Most likely there’s load balancing issues that have to be worked out? I dunno… not my infrastructure, but I can see why it’s not a flick of a switch type fix.

DevonCarver.5370:

The AoE limit is due to technical limitations.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Arrowcarts/page/12#post1936750

you are needed in that topic sir.
this topic has like 20 replies, that one almost hit 1,000.

So siege can hit 50 people but normal skills have a technical limit of 5? Both siege and skills lag when skill lag becomes active so….. Yeah…… Fix your broken skill lag…. Hire less artists and maybe some people a little more useful?

Instead of capping # of players affected by a skill/AoE…
Cap max incoming effects/dps affecting a player in a given timeframe.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Solution-to-Blob-AoE-paradox/first#post1959364

This way AoE can better serve its purpose of “area control via dps” without insta-gibbing or powerbuffing players.

I’m not a game developer, but I do have education as an engineer to code simulations of real-world models, so although what I’m about to say is probably wrong in some specifics, I think it’s a reasonable guess, and should hopefully explain why “technical limitations” isn’t a cheap excuse, if you have the patience to read.

Say you drop an AoE attack on a location. As far as the game is concerned, the AoE attack has almost nothing to do with you, it is now an entity of it’s own. It will have qualities, such as “I orginated from person X who has power Y and trait Z”, but if you, person X, were to suddenly disappear from the game, this AoE is going to keep going along, because it isn’t tied to you.

Every time the server “ticks over”, something it presumably does several times a second, it will run down a list of objects and events and do them each in turn. Eventually it will get to our AoE. Our AoE says “I am here, at this location, and I am going to do my damage to everyone I can!”. So the server draws up a list of players it can do damage to. But, it can’t do it’s damage to everyone on that list at once, because computers don’t work like that. It has to move down the list in sequence, doing damage to first person, then second person, then third etc.

Each time AoE says “now I’m going to do damage to this person”, the server has to do a load of calculations about what gear, stats, traits, boons, buffs the creator of the AoE had, and the gear, stats, traits, boons, buffs of the target. Quite a long list of calculations. And that’s just to do it’s damage to 1 person. It isn’t a simple calculation, there are dozens and dozens of factors to take into consideration, just to work out what number needs to be flashed up on screen and deducted from the targets HP bar.

Just for that one target. 100s of calculations.

The server can’t move on and process the next object/event until it’s finished with our AoE. Now you see the problem; if it goes down the entire list, then we run the risk of the server not being in time for the next “tick”, and some objects/events being left unfinished or delayed.

Skill lag.

The compromise is to say to Mr. AoE: “you can have the first 5 people on the list, after that we’ve got to move on”, and thus, hopefully, skill lag is avoided.

Now, whether or not it’s easy to change that magic number “5” to a different number, I don’t know. It might be simple, it might involve re-designing so much other stuff that they’d basically have to re-make the whole game.

The result will be the same though, more targets for AoE = more skill lag. Which no-one wants, it’s already borderline unbearable, and there are other, better options for dealing with zergs.

Tacked on pvp is tacked on. Oh well, soon it’ll just be pve and spvp with wvw there as an obstacle for legendaries.

Ragnar.4257:

[…]

/bow

Thanks a lot Sir !

So basically, it could be doable to have arrowcart’s AoE making cheap damages to first 10 targets on the list, then reasonable damages to next 10 and finally insane damages to the last 30 ?

No skill or ability in any MMORPG should affect an unlimited number of players in Player versus Player (PvP) even in a small area. There should always be a limit to the number of players that any single cast can affect. Whether it be a crowd control spell, knockback, knockdown, Area of Effect (AoE) damage over time or AoE direct damage cast, all of them should have a limit. If there is no limit, the cast is over powered.

Worldwide.5324:

No skill or ability in any MMORPG should affect an unlimited number of players in Player versus Player (PvP) even in a small area. There should always be a limit to the number of players that any single cast can affect. Whether it be a crowd control spell, knockback, knockdown, Area of Effect (AoE) damage over time or AoE direct damage cast, all of them should have a limit. If there is no limit, the cast is over powered.

Thank you for these divine words.