Guild Wars 2

And here is why we need a public test server to test stuff out with the community. You guys always seem to put stuff out that is very weird and questionable in every patch and most of the time revert it back.

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.
snip

Thanks for the insight as always Devon. I’ve never seen a CM communicate as much with the players as you do and it is very much appreciated. I’m sure Anet will come up with a balance we all can feel better about.

/salute

brandon.6735:

And here is why we need a public test server to test stuff out with the community. You guys always seem to put stuff out that is very weird and questionable in every patch and most of the time revert it back.

+1000

Want to avoid this mess ANet? Give us some public test servers for kitten’s sake!

Jeez you guys really do moan for the sake of moaning. Most of you have been calling Anet out to respond to you and tell you why they made this change to them, when they do you still moan because it isn’t the insta nerf answer you want. You got your answer so either accept it and carry on playing and learning new tactics(rather than mindless zerging) or quitGW/leave WvW coz you didn’t get what you wanted by crying. Just stop posting about how it’s all so unfair on you, it’s the same for everyone and most of us have already learnt to adapt/never had the problem in the 1st place.

DevonCarver.5370:

To be a little clearer. The fixes to arrow carts will be coming quickly. We are already putting those in and testing them. Those should bring them more in line with what we expect them to be.

I feel like this alludes to reducing the damage and/or range arrow carts do to siege, but keeping the damage up on players. Perhaps not, and maybe I’m wrong.

Thanks for at least responding to us.

Please give us gvg (25v25). If the devs feel like wvw should be more siege wars, the pvp guilds need a place to fight

Devon, besides reducing damage to sieges, can you also reduce the base damage of arrowcart a bit? I understand it is intended to be used as anti-personal weapon, however the current iteration is way too good at this role that it overshadows real player actions.

brandon.6735:

And here is why we need a public test server to test stuff out with the community. You guys always seem to put stuff out that is very weird and questionable in every patch and most of the time revert it back.

+1

Ahka.6705:

Thanks for the insight as always Devon. I’ve never seen a CM communicate as much with the players as much as you do and it is very much appreciated.

Robert Hrouda would like to have a word with you.

You should have just kept in the ability to increase the AC’s through Wexp and not buffed them statically as well.

To do both is what messed everything up.

Secondly, AC’s should not be the one stop shop against rams and golems. Ram/golem resistance needs to increase against ACs, decrease against cannons, ballistas and trebuchets.

Damage = very strong but I can live with
Distance + Damage = OP

I recommend reducing range first and then maybe reducing damage to 25% vs. 80% and allow people to spend their WxP to increase damage up to 50% vs. 80%.

I love the idea that people can’t just muscle a door down with numbers and not use any siege. However, I don’t like that the range of an arrow cart can hit my catas at almost max distance. The improvement to AC’s will make zergs rethink and actually have to use strategy but the current range only leaves one real viable option of a treb to to assault a structure that contains a defensive force.

Bottom line: I love that defenders finally got a useful tool to defend with but I do think the range on AC’s is a little too much.

DevonCarver.5370:

To be a little clearer. The fixes to arrow carts will be coming quickly. We are already putting those in and testing them. Those should bring them more in line with what we expect them to be.

Thanks, a 33%-40% damage reduction would be appropriate in my opinion.
Obviously off topic, but: Also the Elementalist nerf is too extreme: The Ride the Lightning nerf to 40 seconds (double the recharge time!!!) would be more acceptable if the distance covered had not been reduced as well.

Just decrease the Arrow Cart damage and allow traits to take the place instead of having a very high base damage. It’s NOT in a good state. Especially with the increased range on arrow carts it’s a bit difficult to even build siege to counter the arrow carts stuck around corners or behind walls. You can’t ballista or catapult 90% of the good arrow cart spots because they abuse line of sight and the ability to shoot through walls. You seemed to have forgotten all of this when buffing Arrow Carts beyond reason.

So its official folks. According to the Dev, you cannot be standing in any of these areas

Ok nice we have reply at least.But I want to comment on something in theory using other siege is ok,but when ac outrange your catapults? what you can do. Or try to treb the walls while other have defensive trebs and now we cant block the treb shots?
Also if the ac is behind the gate or on a stairs behind the gate? you cant kill it with your ac or with balista. The ac buff was crazy. Right now Hills is untakable,if defended by 10 guys with ac. I am glad we finaly have fast response and they are looking on the things but why we needed whole wvw comunity to rage for something before Devs acknowledge their mistake?
I am ok with siege weapons being powerful but I want variety not only ac.Make it tactical to use trebs catapults ect to attack wall or gate for advantage not just spam 1-2-3 on your ac for the win.

I think we need a couple of days more to really get a sense of what the AC change means. Right now, it’s just

HOLY COW THE BALANCE OF POWER CHANGED.

Different is different, but whether it’s a good or bad difference will take time. We definitely need to start using skills to block AC damage. Speaking of which, what player utilities block AC damage?

One thing I do wish was that you wouldn’t get hit if you’re standing under a stone wall. Overhangs should protect

Kincaidia.3192:

I think we need a couple of days more to really get a sense of what the AC change means. Right now, it’s just

HOLY COW THE BALANCE OF POWER CHANGED.

Different is different, but whether it’s a good or bad difference will take time. We definitely need to start using skills to block AC damage. Speaking of which, what player utilities block AC damage?

One thing I do wish was that you wouldn’t get hit if you’re standing under a stone wall. Overhangs should protect

No skill blocks AC damage. Invulns work against the damage but not against the bleeds/poison.

Range of AC is way too OP

Dmg of AC is a little bit OP (will all the WvW buffs)

You can also increase the cooldowns for AC so it doesn’t feel like using a machine gun

Also increase the HP and resistance for rams, they are useless now if you have AC setup.

Maybe consider buffing AC only when you are outmanned

I am sick of waiting for treb shoot in the past 2 days, no fun at all.

DevonCarver.5370:

Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

I really need to ask how do you think you are getting there? In my opinion, game wise, we have moved backwards since release, not forwards. Right now nothing in WvW rewards skill. Kill tagging system for WXP is not reflective of skill at all. Zerging objectives down with 70+ people is not skill. Tactics used by even the more advanced zergs are still pretty basic as far as individual play goes, and outside of the occasional ‘flank’ there is nothing tactical about it at all. Stack, combo fields, blast, go go go.

While I appreciate that the trail blazers of siege placement were pretty ingenious, most commanders/players just use google to find where to place things and that will not change regardless of how you change the combat space.

Of all the games I have played GW2 requires the least amount of skill on the part of an individual player. Since you feel you are getting there, I would love to hear what your view of skill and tactics actually is.

Honestly, I really hope they leave arrowcarts the way they are.

The meta in WvW has improved vastly. It was getting really old watching stacks of 100 people walk through gates like they weren’t there without even using siege.

So in two days, its turned into:

Flash build an AC, and see if you can kill their ACs before they know where you built your AC. THEN ram.

SOR came up with a new fun tactic, throw down tons of ram build sites to hide which build site is the AC. Then flash build the right one.

AC Wars.

You should reverse the changes asap. I think waiting longer than a week is going to be bad. Its horrible already.

Yup, just reverse the changes for AC for now, then sit down, take your time, redesign the siege.

I don’t want to see you guys rush to a change, and not able to solve the problem. Jumping from nightmare to nightmare.

My fix to the AC change: buff engineer mortar so we can take out AC, give mortar the range and armor to do so.

I apprecate Devon coming in here and responding. The problem is that his response isn’t good…

ACs are being “flash built” for open field combat. Whoever builds the first one wins.

ACs are being used as offensive siege weapons.

ACs destroy other siege equipment in moments.

I can understand ACs having been meant to be more powerful, but unless you do something to stop the open-field fighting being all AC based now…it’s over. Same goes with the ACs ability to kill siege so fast.

Really, truly over.

Open field fighting was one of the most fun parts of the game before this patch. Now you just see people running and turtling inside structures or getting flat-out wiped by arrow carts. READ THIS: IT’S NOT FUN. WE PLAY THE GAME FOR FUN. NO FUN = NO PLAY.

Also, one person on an AC can ruin any siege push. While ACs can kill rams/golems/trebs so fast, all that siege has become nearly useless. They’re not an anti-personnel weapon at the moment so much as an “anti-everything” weapon.

You guys need to seriously look at the fun-factor before making changes like this. Your devs should have played the game before knee-jerk making game-breaking changes like these. It was an unwise change with no upside. Any amount of real testing would have proven that to you guys.

ACs were great before, and you should put them back. Many, many zerg rushes have been ruined by ACs. Not sure why you thought they needed to be buffed.

Reverse the changes. Don’t try to band-aid some fix, the fact that this change was made in the first place pretty much gives us zero confidence in any type of attempted fix to be remotely successful.

Reverse the changes ASAP. It does not sit well when something as ridiculous as spectator mode bug fixes gets priority over something as game changing as this. It’s only been 2 and 1/2 days and entire guilds have already quit over this.

Jee E free.5891:

DevonCarver.5370:

We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Months? This is a serious issue at the moment we speak and all you can come up with is that you will change it in the coming months. I am afraid Mr Carver that most people will be sick and tired of the WvW game you created before you ever get to change it.

Already sick and tired of it. Some of these other MMOs cant come quick enough.

Caedmon.6798:

Aytrix.4059:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aytrix.4059:

“World versus World (also known as WvW) is a Player versus Player game mode where players from three different servers, or worlds, battle in the Mists.”

Straight from the GW2 Wiki. Do you even play WvW?

“…In World versus World, players can besiege structures such as Keeps and Towers with siege weapons…”

Also from the GW2 Wiki. Oddly enough it’s part of the very same 3 line paragraph that you quoted. I’m not saying you tried to hide or omit valuable information; it’s perfectly legitimate to believe that you simply stopped reading once you saw something that supported only your side of the debate. Common mistake, we all forgive you.

I am not arguing that there should be no siege in WvW. The point was made by the other guy that WvW is NOT PvP. Did you even bother to read the posts?

EDIT: Its funny that in your sig you mention how peoples ignorance kitten es you off. Your own ignorance must make you absolutely furious.

Honestly,i think it would be wiser to ignore this guy all together for he may be the reason this thread will be locked up.he’s trying to force his opinion down our throats and not accepting what anyone else has to say.

Typical. “He’s making us look bad and we can’t prove him wrong; SHUN HIM!”

It’s sad when arrow carts have more range than catapults or so it seems. It makes it impossible to siege a keep without setting up trebs to clear siege which then can be countered from the significantly entrenched side.

Arkard.3970:

Reverse the changes. Don’t try to band-aid some fix, the fact that this change was made in the first place pretty much gives us zero confidence in any type of attempted fix to be remotely successful.

Reverse the changes ASAP. It does not sit well when something as ridiculous as spectator mode bug fixes gets priority over something as game changing as this. It’s only been 2 and 1/2 days and entire guilds have already quit over this.

The annoying thing is that this stuff was balanced. Really well balanced actually… Why mess with an excellent balance like that?

I would give a lot to find out what decision making process was followed when doing this, because it, frankly, doesn’t many any sense.

The AC change need to be completely reverted until all the siege changes are ready, tested, and verified to be balanced out with one another in line with your goals. LEaving it in is pretty kittening unacceptable.

Hickeroar.9734:

Arkard.3970:

Reverse the changes. Don’t try to band-aid some fix, the fact that this change was made in the first place pretty much gives us zero confidence in any type of attempted fix to be remotely successful.

Reverse the changes ASAP. It does not sit well when something as ridiculous as spectator mode bug fixes gets priority over something as game changing as this. It’s only been 2 and 1/2 days and entire guilds have already quit over this.

The annoying thing is that this stuff was balanced. Really well balanced actually… Why mess with an excellent balance like that?

I would give a lot to find out what decision making process was followed when doing this, because it, frankly, doesn’t many any sense.

Quite frankly, that’s why people have no confidence and are so angry. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding about WvW.

FractalChaos.6539:

Caedmon.6798:

Aytrix.4059:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aytrix.4059:

“World versus World (also known as WvW) is a Player versus Player game mode where players from three different servers, or worlds, battle in the Mists.”

Straight from the GW2 Wiki. Do you even play WvW?

“…In World versus World, players can besiege structures such as Keeps and Towers with siege weapons…”

Also from the GW2 Wiki. Oddly enough it’s part of the very same 3 line paragraph that you quoted. I’m not saying you tried to hide or omit valuable information; it’s perfectly legitimate to believe that you simply stopped reading once you saw something that supported only your side of the debate. Common mistake, we all forgive you.

I am not arguing that there should be no siege in WvW. The point was made by the other guy that WvW is NOT PvP. Did you even bother to read the posts?

EDIT: Its funny that in your sig you mention how peoples ignorance kitten es you off. Your own ignorance must make you absolutely furious.

Honestly,i think it would be wiser to ignore this guy all together for he may be the reason this thread will be locked up.he’s trying to force his opinion down our throats and not accepting what anyone else has to say.

Typical. “He’s making us look bad and we can’t prove him wrong; SHUN HIM!”

My dear, as opposed to attempting to turn this thread into “I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG” how about you start to ask yourself why people are saying no one should listen to you, mayhap its because you are doing what you accuse others of and that you signature is something that maybe you should be attempting to post by yourself. Attempting to denigrate others while making nonsensical arguments yourself really isn’t the right way to go in order to bring people to your side of an argument (and please be aware there isn’t just a “Right and Wrong” in this discussion there are a vast amount of sides that people are sat on currently).

Please note that until you stop the passive aggressive posts and return off cloud 9 and seem to be making an effort to understand the problem (because there obviously is one) then I will not be replying to you – hopefully your response to this is a welcome one.

I like the area control that AC gives now through damage, but this may be because I play on a server that is outmanned most of the time and it really helped us to be able to hold some ground.
Things to look at: the range is a bit too much after upgrades and the damage that it does to enemies siege should be lowered.

Hickeroar.9734:

Arkard.3970:

Reverse the changes. Don’t try to band-aid some fix, the fact that this change was made in the first place pretty much gives us zero confidence in any type of attempted fix to be remotely successful.

Reverse the changes ASAP. It does not sit well when something as ridiculous as spectator mode bug fixes gets priority over something as game changing as this. It’s only been 2 and 1/2 days and entire guilds have already quit over this.

The annoying thing is that this stuff was balanced. Really well balanced actually… Why mess with an excellent balance like that?

I would give a lot to find out what decision making process was followed when doing this, because it, frankly, doesn’t many any sense.

ACs were too weak, they really were. Rain hurt more than one of them. They should keep the anti-personnel aspects of them intact. Damage reduction against siege, I can see that.

Now… a trainable “Flaming Arrows” that does full damage against siege (and burns people)… this makes me tingly inside.

I bought this game called Guild Wars 2 back in August. I was really excited because it had character pvp in a gamestyle caled WvW. It reminded me of DAoC RvR.

What I have experienced over the last week would be a game called Siege Wars 2. Its a game where you level up siege abilities and sit and wait at an arrow cart trying to kill other arrow carts. Part of the game is to surf the interweb while waiting for something to happen because all other players playing Siege Wars 2 are bottled up in tower and keeps and don’t come out to fight.

The funny thing is NO ONE was complaining about AC pre-patch, I mean NO ONE.

So please, if it is working, DON’T try to “fix” it

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

Arkard.3970:

Reverse the changes. Don’t try to band-aid some fix, the fact that this change was made in the first place pretty much gives us zero confidence in any type of attempted fix to be remotely successful.

Reverse the changes ASAP. It does not sit well when something as ridiculous as spectator mode bug fixes gets priority over something as game changing as this. It’s only been 2 and 1/2 days and entire guilds have already quit over this.

The annoying thing is that this stuff was balanced. Really well balanced actually… Why mess with an excellent balance like that?

I would give a lot to find out what decision making process was followed when doing this, because it, frankly, doesn’t many any sense.

ACs were too weak, they really were. Rain hurt more than one of them. They should keep the anti-personnel aspects of them intact. Damage reduction against siege, I can see that.

Now… a trainable “Flaming Arrows” that does full damage against siege (and burns people)… this makes me tingly inside.

And you’re OK with the entire idea of open-field combat being destroyed by this single, idiotic change?

When I see people post stuff like this, I wonder how much WvW they actually play. It can’t be much…

Tearofsoul.9843:

The funny thing is NO ONE was complaining about AC pre-patch, I mean NO ONE.

So please, if it is working, DON’T try to “fix” it

If people from TC and FA agree on something, you know how abysmal this was.

Hickeroar.9734:

And you’re OK with the entire idea of open-field combat being destroyed by this single, idiotic change?

Given who you responded to, I am pretty certain that they would be ok with that…..

Arkard.3970:

Tearofsoul.9843:

The funny thing is NO ONE was complaining about AC pre-patch, I mean NO ONE.

So please, if it is working, DON’T try to “fix” it

If people from TC and FA agree on something, you know how abysmal this was.

OMG COMMON GROUND! <3 Maybe we SHOULD keep the buffed arrowcarts! xD

Hickeroar.9734:

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

Arkard.3970:

Reverse the changes. Don’t try to band-aid some fix, the fact that this change was made in the first place pretty much gives us zero confidence in any type of attempted fix to be remotely successful.

Reverse the changes ASAP. It does not sit well when something as ridiculous as spectator mode bug fixes gets priority over something as game changing as this. It’s only been 2 and 1/2 days and entire guilds have already quit over this.

The annoying thing is that this stuff was balanced. Really well balanced actually… Why mess with an excellent balance like that?

I would give a lot to find out what decision making process was followed when doing this, because it, frankly, doesn’t many any sense.

ACs were too weak, they really were. Rain hurt more than one of them. They should keep the anti-personnel aspects of them intact. Damage reduction against siege, I can see that.

Now… a trainable “Flaming Arrows” that does full damage against siege (and burns people)… this makes me tingly inside.

And you’re OK with the entire idea of open-field combat being destroyed by this single, idiotic change?

When I see people post stuff like this, I wonder how much WvW they actually play. It can’t be much…

Haven’t seen open field combat destroyed to be honest. I’ve seen tower defenses splatter invaders, but not open field stuff. Now, if someone dropping an AC in the open field is indeed “breaking” open field combat then all I can offer to do is slowly shake my head at the dead people that failed to realize there’s a minimum distance for ACs as well.

Thanks to ANet we can now play to AC war.

Devon, please do not destroy WvW by listening to the very vocal minority. WvW is the only place siege exist. I love using siege and it’s THE ONLY place we can. WvW is NOT the place for small GvG fighting. That is the main problem here. Specific guilds trying to change every aspect of the game to suit themselves. And, these individuals that believe they have skill because they press a number for a skill.

Make the population on sPvP maps larger to suit them. This way they can do their thing without spoiling WvW, please??

The current changes are great.

I’ve watched a bunch of people getting rolled by the new damage/abilities inside towers (like we used to do with Leg Specialist and Ballistas) except the best part about the videos of people getting rolled for 15m was that they had a treb firing at the walls to get them down and didn’t think to shift and clear siege too.

Thank you ANet, you are the masters of allowing us to exploit the minds of our opponents.

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

Arkard.3970:

Reverse the changes. Don’t try to band-aid some fix, the fact that this change was made in the first place pretty much gives us zero confidence in any type of attempted fix to be remotely successful.

Reverse the changes ASAP. It does not sit well when something as ridiculous as spectator mode bug fixes gets priority over something as game changing as this. It’s only been 2 and 1/2 days and entire guilds have already quit over this.

The annoying thing is that this stuff was balanced. Really well balanced actually… Why mess with an excellent balance like that?

I would give a lot to find out what decision making process was followed when doing this, because it, frankly, doesn’t many any sense.

ACs were too weak, they really were. Rain hurt more than one of them. They should keep the anti-personnel aspects of them intact. Damage reduction against siege, I can see that.

Now… a trainable “Flaming Arrows” that does full damage against siege (and burns people)… this makes me tingly inside.

And you’re OK with the entire idea of open-field combat being destroyed by this single, idiotic change?

When I see people post stuff like this, I wonder how much WvW they actually play. It can’t be much…

Haven’t seen open field combat destroyed to be honest. I’ve seen tower defenses splatter invaders, but not open field stuff. Now, if someone dropping an AC in the open field is indeed “breaking” open field combat then all I can offer to do is slowly shake my head at the dead people that failed to realize there’s a minimum distance for ACs as well.

That assumes one ac…. if you flash build multiple ones with a zerg, they can cover each other easily….

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

Arkard.3970:

Reverse the changes. Don’t try to band-aid some fix, the fact that this change was made in the first place pretty much gives us zero confidence in any type of attempted fix to be remotely successful.

Reverse the changes ASAP. It does not sit well when something as ridiculous as spectator mode bug fixes gets priority over something as game changing as this. It’s only been 2 and 1/2 days and entire guilds have already quit over this.

The annoying thing is that this stuff was balanced. Really well balanced actually… Why mess with an excellent balance like that?

I would give a lot to find out what decision making process was followed when doing this, because it, frankly, doesn’t many any sense.

ACs were too weak, they really were. Rain hurt more than one of them. They should keep the anti-personnel aspects of them intact. Damage reduction against siege, I can see that.

Now… a trainable “Flaming Arrows” that does full damage against siege (and burns people)… this makes me tingly inside.

And you’re OK with the entire idea of open-field combat being destroyed by this single, idiotic change?

When I see people post stuff like this, I wonder how much WvW they actually play. It can’t be much…

Haven’t seen open field combat destroyed to be honest. I’ve seen tower defenses splatter invaders, but not open field stuff. Now, if someone dropping an AC in the open field is indeed “breaking” open field combat then all I can offer to do is slowly shake my head at the dead people that failed to realize there’s a minimum distance for ACs as well.

Try running over 3500 range while crippled and in the middle of a fight. Not gonna happen. You’re gonna be dead LONG before you get out of range.

I’ve also seen tower defenses get splattered by ACs planted outside the walls.

You obviously either don’t play much WvW at all…or your experience is so silo-ed to one type of play that you haven’t experienced the devastating effects of this change.

DevonCarver.5370:

We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Arrow carts with the range of ballistas.

Hold me back, can’t wait!

DeWolfe.2174:

I love using siege and it’s THE ONLY place we can.

You can’t use siege really. It gets destroyed before you can build it by the arrow carts.

DeWolfe.2174:

Devon, please do not destroy WvW by listening to the very vocal minority. WvW is the only place siege exist. I love using siege and it’s THE ONLY place we can. WvW is NOT the place for small GvG fighting. That is the main problem here. Specific guilds trying to change every aspect of the game to suit themselves. And, these individuals that believe they have skill because they press a number for a skill.

Make the population on sPvP maps larger to suit them. This way they can do their thing without spoiling WvW, please

I’m sorry, the fact that you mention that siege can only be used in WvW shows a lack of knowledge. There’s siege in PvE. There’s seige in SPvP. Please don’t claim to be the majority when you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.

Re: Hickeroar’s post -

I think the siege design was pretty balanced pre-patch, but that Anet is trying to make up for players’/commanders’ bad decisions by tempting them with the candy of OP ACs.

By that I mean, pre-patch a keep with lots of well placed, pre-built siege, protected by scouts and with players who respond quickly to calls of incoming zergs had a very good chance of turning back massive attacks. But in a lot of cases people just were not taking advantage of the tools already at their disposal. Keeps with no siege and no scouts are common, even when they make it to full upgrad. So, Anet felt they had to give us a better tool to stop the zerg we know is coming but had refused to prepare for, hence the OP AC.

I’m fine with a modest buff to ACs if it sparks some people to realize, “hey, these things can help us not get our kitten flipped all the time – let’s build some!” But the current buff is way over the top.