Guild Wars 2

Timpsu.9324:

How I see this update is that encourages PvD.

What’s the easiest way to counter modern AC? The way when no one is using it. U will make feint attacks somewhere and meanwhile cap something else. So the superiority of a server doesn’t come from server vs. server confrontations, it comes from the skill of avoiding combat. Some people might call my scenario strategy, I call it PvD. It certainly doesn’t encourage people to have actual epic scale PvP confrontations.

So true.

So you would prefer a roaming zergball flipping points over and over for easy WXP with absolutely no risk, that’s all you had to say.

Aneu.1748:

How does it make a zerg split up? When it takes LESS people to defend than it does to attack how do you really think smaller groups will be able to cap anything? I mean really…

I don’t think he meant to split up and attack different objectives. Getting a tower (and especially a keep) should be a coordinated and group activity. Zerg could split into few groups and attack from different directions. Once one wall is down, each group would wait for other teams to knock down more walls, and only then simultaneously overwhelm defenders (as opposed to current “huzzah, wall down, rush to the lord” behaviour*).

• Going through a single choke point (which defenders are focusing on) SHOULD end in a disaster. As shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE7UcSZuUQY

But that requires planing, organisation, and time. Previous WvW was SO easy (chu chu, karma train on the way). Well, times change and so will Commanders adapt. They will have to plan in advance, identify objectives, and assign roles (as opposed to current “build treb on me”, “push now”).

A lot of people complain about having nothing to do for small teams. Small team shouldn’t be able to capture defended towers (unless they use surprise or defenders are bad). I’d envision small teams to focus on capturing depots (why you need 30+ people to flip a depot? waste of manpower), securing them, disturbing enemy dolyaks, or just roaming (disturbing enemy activity). Once the main team starts bleeding a tower / keep dry enemies will leave their keeps and towers. They will know they need depots and dolyak routes running, otherwise they will lose this fortification. With this system, the successful capture is dependant on such small teams doing their job. You get small scale fight while helping taking a larger objective. Win-win for me.

Gab Superstar.4059:

Caliban.3176:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Silver.9084:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Silver.9084:

What people don’t understand is that it is BORING trebbing/dealing with counter trebs for 5 hours to TRY and find a fight inside a keep or something.. people want to fight CHARACTERS not siege all the time..

People obviously don’t feel this way.

That’s why this thread has almost 700 replies in half a day

700 replies totally agreeing with the complains made in this thread. Hell, if I knew my posts would count as some kind of support for these complaints, I don’t think I would be posting here right now. Face it, the people who frequent forums are a drop in the ocean, and mean next to nothing in terms of what people would actually like to see in the game.

Caliban.3176:

You don’t have to tell me what to do, I’ll stop posting when I feel like it. It’s the only thing I can do now since the patch has made everything I worked for in the game useless. I do have real arguments, you just choose to ignore that, that is your choice.

I do not understand what you are doing in this thread, guilds that actually tried to make this game competitive are now asking for a fix. You are just here to ruin stuff.

If you consider 5v100 a valid argument, I don’t know what. Personally I would consider that mad ramblings. If you feel you need to quit this game, then by all means go ahead and do it. I see absolutely nothing from anyone who replied to me that is worth even a second of consideration from my part.

Oh, and this game is competitive. Maybe blobbing 30 people up and spamming your autoattack while abusing every game mechanic conceivable has something to do with your lack of fun. That is what you guys do in the upper tiers right?

Before this patch 10vs80 was not hard to do for hills or garrison. Not in the least. You didn’t even have to be on voicecomms for it. Of course this is going to make 5vs 100 doable.

P.S. we are in T7

Those 80 would have to be extremely bad, and would have to never adapt at all.

P.S. that was not always the case

that would be untrue, i remember one time back in maguuma, it was around like 2am or so on reset night, we defended our BL garrison for 4+hours after 3 NW walls and gates already went down with just 15players against 80, they werent bad players, we just knew every good counter siege spot, and with a t3 garrison, yea, autoattacks wouldve took them another 4hours at least. They tried every angle, hell they even tried to hit watergate with golems a couple of times, but yeah, didnt work out, eventually we succumbed to our exhaustion, and we logged off.

also hills is probably the easiest to defend keep of them all because of only 2 gates, and one wall which is easily seen and countered if server has it sieged up properly.

Dovgan.8605:

So you would prefer a roaming zergball flipping points over and over for easy WXP with absolutely no risk, that’s all you had to say.

I would prefer 30 man groups and specific guild groups running around fighting one another as opposed to people turtling inside of a keep or avoiding fights as much as possible. The most fun in this game comes out of characters fighting other characters not manning siege for hours and hours or going at a gate door with 12 arrowcarts on the other side raining hell down on you. I have in no way advocated zergs or blobs but these changes will encourage it even more while lowering the amount of smaller groups running around due to a single or double arrowcart being able to turn anything that isnt the entire map on a tower/keep.

Ravak.8912:

Aneu.1748:

How does it make a zerg split up? When it takes LESS people to defend than it does to attack how do you really think smaller groups will be able to cap anything? I mean really…

I don’t think he meant to split up and attack different objectives. Getting a tower (and especially a keep) should be a coordinated and group activity. Zerg could split into few groups and attack from different directions. Once one wall is down, each group would wait for other teams to knock down more walls, and only then simultaneously overwhelm defenders (as opposed to current “huzzah, wall down, rush to the lord” behaviour*).

• Going through a single choke point (which defenders are focusing on) SHOULD end in a disaster. As shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE7UcSZuUQY

But that requires planing, organisation, and time. Previous WvW was SO easy (chu chu, karma train on the way). Well, times change and so will Commanders adapt. They will have to plan in advance, identify objectives, and assign roles (as opposed to current “build treb on me”, “push now”).

A lot of people complain about having nothing to do for small teams. Small team shouldn’t be able to capture anything (unless they use surprise). Small teams should focus on capturing depots (why you need 30+ people to flip a depot? waste of manpower), securing them, disturbing enemy dolyaks, or just roaming (disturbing enemy activity). Once you start bleeding a tower / keep dry enemies will leave their keeps and towers. They will know they need depots and dolyak routes running, otherwise they will get killed. With this system, the successful capture is dependant on such small teams doing their job. You get small scale fight while helping taking a larger objective. Win-win for me.

This guy gets it.

Those supporting this change are only looking at it from a defensive point of view. Yes, it’s great that it now requires less people to defend a tower/keep from an oversized zerg through the use of powerful arrow carts. However, how is a small sized guild/squad meant to have any success in attacking a tower/keep? 2 or 3 people will be able to hold off a group of 10-20 with no problem whatsoever with the new upgrades. This will in turn force people to increase the size of their group, so once again encouraging people to run in a ridiculously sized zerg.

I notice the only ones complaining are people in the top 2 tiers or from them, they obviously haven’t learnt how to play the game and have always relied on overwhelming numbers to do anything.
All i can say is learn how to play the game as it was meant to be, not how you’ve chosen to do it for the last 9months which clearly has left you all floundering around without a clue.

Dovgan.8605:

Ravak.8912:

Aneu.1748:

How does it make a zerg split up? When it takes LESS people to defend than it does to attack how do you really think smaller groups will be able to cap anything? I mean really…

I don’t think he meant to split up and attack different objectives. Getting a tower (and especially a keep) should be a coordinated and group activity. Zerg could split into few groups and attack from different directions. Once one wall is down, each group would wait for other teams to knock down more walls, and only then simultaneously overwhelm defenders (as opposed to current “huzzah, wall down, rush to the lord” behaviour*).

• Going through a single choke point (which defenders are focusing on) SHOULD end in a disaster. As shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE7UcSZuUQY

But that requires planing, organisation, and time. Previous WvW was SO easy (chu chu, karma train on the way). Well, times change and so will Commanders adapt. They will have to plan in advance, identify objectives, and assign roles (as opposed to current “build treb on me”, “push now”).

A lot of people complain about having nothing to do for small teams. Small team shouldn’t be able to capture anything (unless they use surprise). Small teams should focus on capturing depots (why you need 30+ people to flip a depot? waste of manpower), securing them, disturbing enemy dolyaks, or just roaming (disturbing enemy activity). Once you start bleeding a tower / keep dry enemies will leave their keeps and towers. They will know they need depots and dolyak routes running, otherwise they will get killed. With this system, the successful capture is dependant on such small teams doing their job. You get small scale fight while helping taking a larger objective. Win-win for me.

This guy gets it.

Gets what? Seriously… are people this naive?

You have 100 people that split into groups of 4, lets say these 100 are attacking Garrison… 25 on seperate gates… So what exactly will happen here? With arrowcarts on each gate it will take them a while and then what stops the enemy from blobbing into a group of 50+ and going out killing those 25 people then going back in and doing the same to all the 25 man groups… what exactly stops this? People are so focused on just siege defending and missing so many angles in this argument…

Saint Scarlet.2906:

I notice the only ones complaining are people in the top 2 tiers or from them, they obviously haven’t learnt how to play the game and have always relied on overwhelming numbers to do anything.
All i can say is learn how to play the game as it was meant to be, not how you’ve chosen to do it for the last 9months which clearly has left you all floundering around without a clue.

My mind = blown.

I think you need to learn to play the game honestly. I genuinely dont think you have the first clue about wvw.

All I see in this thread, are a bunch of nobodies from random guilds saying ambiguous statements like “this is how its meant to be played” without substantiating anything they have to say about anything.

But please, share us with more insight, I am sure you have much to add.

Aneu.1748:

Dovgan.8605:

Ravak.8912:

Aneu.1748:

How does it make a zerg split up? When it takes LESS people to defend than it does to attack how do you really think smaller groups will be able to cap anything? I mean really…

I don’t think he meant to split up and attack different objectives. Getting a tower (and especially a keep) should be a coordinated and group activity. Zerg could split into few groups and attack from different directions. Once one wall is down, each group would wait for other teams to knock down more walls, and only then simultaneously overwhelm defenders (as opposed to current “huzzah, wall down, rush to the lord” behaviour*).

• Going through a single choke point (which defenders are focusing on) SHOULD end in a disaster. As shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE7UcSZuUQY

But that requires planing, organisation, and time. Previous WvW was SO easy (chu chu, karma train on the way). Well, times change and so will Commanders adapt. They will have to plan in advance, identify objectives, and assign roles (as opposed to current “build treb on me”, “push now”).

A lot of people complain about having nothing to do for small teams. Small team shouldn’t be able to capture anything (unless they use surprise). Small teams should focus on capturing depots (why you need 30+ people to flip a depot? waste of manpower), securing them, disturbing enemy dolyaks, or just roaming (disturbing enemy activity). Once you start bleeding a tower / keep dry enemies will leave their keeps and towers. They will know they need depots and dolyak routes running, otherwise they will get killed. With this system, the successful capture is dependant on such small teams doing their job. You get small scale fight while helping taking a larger objective. Win-win for me.

This guy gets it.

Gets what? Seriously… are people this naive?

You have 100 people that split into groups of 4, lets say these 100 are attacking Garrison… 25 on seperate gates… So what exactly will happen here? With arrowcarts on each gate it will take them a while and then what stops the enemy from blobbing into a group of 50+ and going out killing those 25 people then going back in and doing the same to all the 25 man groups… what exactly stops this? People are so focused on just siege defending and missing so many angles in this argument…

^yup

say its 25v50, the larger group is attacking and they split up into another 25man group attack another gate in that keep, those 25 would probably just rush those 25 left behind (possibly portal bomb) and just wipe them, and go and wipe the other group as well, because they already have siege advantage and numbers are the same. (this is speaking that both parties are of equal skills)

Saint Scarlet.2906:

I notice the only ones complaining are people in the top 2 tiers or from them, they obviously haven’t learnt how to play the game and have always relied on overwhelming numbers to do anything.
All i can say is learn how to play the game as it was meant to be, not how you’ve chosen to do it for the last 9months which clearly has left you all floundering around without a clue.

So people fromt the top tiers don’t know how to play the game?

Also consider that these are mostly people from the top guilds in the game. They probably know what they are talking about. A small and far from complete list of those guilds: (warning, biased for EU) VcY, Riot, sIN, RG, VoTF, IRON, …

Ravak.8912:

Aneu.1748:

How does it make a zerg split up? When it takes LESS people to defend than it does to attack how do you really think smaller groups will be able to cap anything? I mean really…

I don’t think he meant to split up and attack different objectives. Getting a tower (and especially a keep) should be a coordinated and group activity. Zerg could split into few groups and attack from different directions. Once one wall is down, each group would wait for other teams to knock down more walls, and only then simultaneously overwhelm defenders (as opposed to current “huzzah, wall down, rush to the lord” behaviour*).

• Going through a single choke point (which defenders are focusing on) SHOULD end in a disaster. As shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE7UcSZuUQY

But that requires planing, organisation, and time. Previous WvW was SO easy (chu chu, karma train on the way). Well, times change and so will Commanders adapt. They will have to plan in advance, identify objectives, and assign roles (as opposed to current “build treb on me”, “push now”).

A lot of people complain about having nothing to do for small teams. Small team shouldn’t be able to capture defended towers (unless they use surprise or defenders are bad). I’d envision small teams to focus on capturing depots (why you need 30+ people to flip a depot? waste of manpower), securing them, disturbing enemy dolyaks, or just roaming (disturbing enemy activity). Once the main team starts bleeding a tower / keep dry enemies will leave their keeps and towers. They will know they need depots and dolyak routes running, otherwise they will lose this fortification. With this system, the successful capture is dependant on such small teams doing their job. You get small scale fight while helping taking a larger objective. Win-win for me.

from what i can gather, this is what we all want:
- no more zerging
- more tactics
- still have fun

in a perfect world he is right

BUT:
there are timeconstraints. How long till a fully reinforced Garrison is empty? what when servers play on different times?
how to motivate the people to tag along 24/7? this doesn’t give as much WXP as the old meta of destroy everything and take it back.

Aneu.1748:

Dovgan.8605:

Ravak.8912:

Aneu.1748:

How does it make a zerg split up? When it takes LESS people to defend than it does to attack how do you really think smaller groups will be able to cap anything? I mean really…

I don’t think he meant to split up and attack different objectives. Getting a tower (and especially a keep) should be a coordinated and group activity. Zerg could split into few groups and attack from different directions. Once one wall is down, each group would wait for other teams to knock down more walls, and only then simultaneously overwhelm defenders (as opposed to current “huzzah, wall down, rush to the lord” behaviour*).

• Going through a single choke point (which defenders are focusing on) SHOULD end in a disaster. As shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE7UcSZuUQY

But that requires planing, organisation, and time. Previous WvW was SO easy (chu chu, karma train on the way). Well, times change and so will Commanders adapt. They will have to plan in advance, identify objectives, and assign roles (as opposed to current “build treb on me”, “push now”).

A lot of people complain about having nothing to do for small teams. Small team shouldn’t be able to capture anything (unless they use surprise). Small teams should focus on capturing depots (why you need 30+ people to flip a depot? waste of manpower), securing them, disturbing enemy dolyaks, or just roaming (disturbing enemy activity). Once you start bleeding a tower / keep dry enemies will leave their keeps and towers. They will know they need depots and dolyak routes running, otherwise they will get killed. With this system, the successful capture is dependant on such small teams doing their job. You get small scale fight while helping taking a larger objective. Win-win for me.

This guy gets it.

Gets what? Seriously… are people this naive?

You have 100 people that split into groups of 4, lets say these 100 are attacking Garrison… 25 on seperate gates… So what exactly will happen here? With arrowcarts on each gate it will take them a while and then what stops the enemy from blobbing into a group of 50+ and going out killing those 25 people then going back in and doing the same to all the 25 man groups… what exactly stops this? People are so focused on just siege defending and missing so many angles in this argument…

So you have 50 people defending a fortified structure, plus players manning arrow carts and holding off 4 different points. You shouldn’t be able to capture that unless you are using superior tactics. Why is that hard to grasp? If you attack an enemy of near equal number in a defensible location you should still win? Sure.

One of my major complaints is that even if you destroy all of the arrow carts in a tower or garrison and begin a long treb war now with the 30 seconds of garrisons not being automatically contested allows for defenders to easily run supply back. Making it next to impossible to starve them of supply so they will continue to repair and build more siege.

scanz.4536:

Those supporting this change are only looking at it from a defensive point of view. Yes, it’s great that it now requires less people to defend a tower/keep from an oversized zerg through the use of powerful arrow carts. However, how is a small sized guild/squad meant to have any success in attacking a tower/keep? 2 or 3 people will be able to hold off a group of 10-20 with no problem whatsoever with the new upgrades. This will in turn force people to increase the size of their group, so once again encouraging people to run in a ridiculously sized zerg.

^^ most true thing said here.

If you can defend it with 5players against 50, whats to stop them from defending you with 5 players as well. They will still have a number advantage if they had that on you already, but it just forces both parties into a defensive position or an multiple golem rushes where the enemy can’t even react fast enough.

Saint Scarlet.2906:

I notice the only ones complaining are people in the top 2 tiers or from them, they obviously haven’t learnt how to play the game and have always relied on overwhelming numbers to do anything.
All i can say is learn how to play the game as it was meant to be, not how you’ve chosen to do it for the last 9months which clearly has left you all floundering around without a clue.

Actually, EU T1 just got more unbalanced because of this. The number one server is the only one going with a zerg. Allow me to explain.

Yes, the AC buff is good for a small group of defenders repelling a bigger zerg, a very effective counter. But what if there’s a zerg defending the keep? In T1, n:o 1 server has supreme coverage, they can run supreme most of the day, capture kitten and just sit at their towers and keeps when there’s activity on opposing servers. This makes capturing anything quite hard, actually holding anything impossibru. Effectively, ANet has given defenders quite some tools, and made zerging only harder on the offensive side, not at the defensive side. Of course, this has also something to do with coverage. Now, I don’t know what’s happening at lower tiers, but if my own tier gets more unbalanced by this, I think I have a right to make it known. We are all only looking at things from our own perspectives, so I can’t possibly see how the situation turns our on every other existing tier.

Saint Scarlet.2906:

I notice the only ones complaining are people in the top 2 tiers or from them, they obviously haven’t learnt how to play the game and have always relied on overwhelming numbers to do anything.
All i can say is learn how to play the game as it was meant to be, not how you’ve chosen to do it for the last 9months which clearly has left you all floundering around without a clue.

Strangely I am surprised at how some people are over looking a very important aspect regarding this change.

Now that towers and Keeps can be more easily defended, this also should in effect make it easier on the commanders to defend. Players should overall spend less on siege and upgrades if towers and keeps flip less often and scouts will have a viable way to get some kills and contribute to defending claimed land without dying from boredom and/or frustration.

There are other ways to look at this glass. Half full, half empty, empty, full, and perhaps shattered.

Give it a few weeks people before you hit the panic button. Knee jerk reactions to change are not the best way to judge the long term effects. Only time will show how this will impact the game and by how much.

All I know is that this change in the meta is making things boring. I’ve been here at my server’s hills for 3 hours, and 0 action. Nobody’s attempting anything. It could just be because it’s early morning, but none of our keeps or towers have been hit AT ALL. I don’t know if the arrowcarts are proving to be that much of a deterrent or what.

You’re complaining that it only takes a few to man siege to stop a zerg, then complaining that zerg can only cap everything. It’s either one or the other. I’ve played most of the so called top guilds and i can say with ease yes in open field most are pretty good, but when it comes to sieging stuff they have never got past the stack on door/wall mentality. So of course these guilds are the ones complaining, it’s because now they have to learn something and aren’t as good as their ego’s have lead them to believe.

OK.Damage to players is damage.Utterly insane 20 k per second 1 shot damge.

But , WHAT THE KITTEN .Can an Anet employee explain to mw what is the purpoise of rams and golems now? They have ridiculosly low hp .The ly get distroyed befor even making two hits on the gates.WHAT THE KITTEN really? This is beyound stupid.Does any dev have any clue at all ? Even funcom has more clue about pvp and that is saying everything.pls check how alive their games still are after mindlesly ignoring any playerbase feedbavk whatsoever.
Time to move on.Hf pvdoorin, or better saying pvwalling now.

Saint Scarlet.2906:

I notice the only ones complaining are people in the top 2 tiers or from them

As Timpsu says:

Actually, EU T1 just got more unbalanced because of this. The number one server is the only one going with a zerg. Allow me to explain.

Yes, the AC buff is good for a small group of defenders repelling a bigger zerg, a very effective counter. But what if there’s a zerg defending the keep?

Try play for a week with Vizuna (or similar playstyle servers: sorry to name you french mates but you’re the closest example i have), then try tell me again how AC overbuff is good.

I’ve played all EU servers apart from Deso and Viz. Yes there are several servers(most these days it seems) that rely on zerg behaviour to do anything but they can be beaten if you apply some common sense and decent tactics. The nature of war is constantly changing as people learn new things and try new things, maybe if all these people complaing did this they might learn more than 1 style of play.

Bones.5762:

scanz.4536:

Those supporting this change are only looking at it from a defensive point of view. Yes, it’s great that it now requires less people to defend a tower/keep from an oversized zerg through the use of powerful arrow carts. However, how is a small sized guild/squad meant to have any success in attacking a tower/keep? 2 or 3 people will be able to hold off a group of 10-20 with no problem whatsoever with the new upgrades. This will in turn force people to increase the size of their group, so once again encouraging people to run in a ridiculously sized zerg.

If I am understanding you here, the argument is; “This change hurts you more than it helps you because now the ENEMY can defend better too!”

I say again; good.

ACs aren’t overpowered, they’re now as powerful as they were meant to be. That’s all. These claims that 3 people can hold off 25 and that 5 people can hold off 50…that’s just fear mongering and a lot of hyperventilation.

On our BL yesterday, SoR was fighting JQ over Bay at the south gate. We had arrow carts, we had AC operators (15-20?). JQ had more people (40 or so I guess?) and they won. They breached the wall in two spots while also attacking the gate, and created 3 ways in. It took longer, yes; but in the end, they won. You can’t build 5 arrow carts in every single place the enemy can possibly breach; that means the enemy can get in.

Simple logic.

A significant numerical advantage will still win you the fights and the PPT; you’re just going to have to work for it now instead of letting 10 people zerg the door down while the other 20 all /dance and /sleep.

FractalChaos.6539:

Bones.5762:

scanz.4536:

Those supporting this change are only looking at it from a defensive point of view. Yes, it’s great that it now requires less people to defend a tower/keep from an oversized zerg through the use of powerful arrow carts. However, how is a small sized guild/squad meant to have any success in attacking a tower/keep? 2 or 3 people will be able to hold off a group of 10-20 with no problem whatsoever with the new upgrades. This will in turn force people to increase the size of their group, so once again encouraging people to run in a ridiculously sized zerg.

If I am understanding you here, the argument is; “This change hurts you more than it helps you because now the ENEMY can defend better too!”

I say again; good.

ACs aren’t overpowered, they’re now as powerful as they were meant to be. That’s all. These claims that 3 people can hold off 25 and that 5 people can hold off 50…that’s just fear mongering and a lot of hyperventilation.

On our BL yesterday, SoR was fighting JQ over Bay at the south gate. We had arrow carts, we had AC operators (15-20?). JQ had more people (40 or so I guess?) and they won. They breached the wall in two spots while also attacking the gate, and created 3 ways in. It took longer, yes; but in the end, they won. You can’t build 5 arrow carts in every single place the enemy can possibly breach; that means the enemy can get in.

Simple logic.

A significant numerical advantage will still win you the fights and the PPT; you’re just going to have to work for it now instead of letting 10 people zerg the door down while the other 20 all /dance and /sleep.

Oh no, that can’t be right. Using a tactical approach to get past the GOD carts and a well thought out strategy worked? And in the end they all worked together to achieve a common goal? And they probably felt like they actually accomplished something? Ridiculous.

Or the defence was just exceptionally bad…

I cannot believe for the life of me there are people that actually defend this change. Come on wake up smell the coffee.

FractalChaos.6539:

A significant numerical advantage will still win you the fights….

Like I said at the end of my post, “This will in turn force people to increase the size of their group, so once again encouraging people to run in a ridiculously sized zerg.”

Sounds fun, doesn’t it?

FractalChaos.6539:

Bones.5762:

scanz.4536:

Those supporting this change are only looking at it from a defensive point of view. Yes, it’s great that it now requires less people to defend a tower/keep from an oversized zerg through the use of powerful arrow carts. However, how is a small sized guild/squad meant to have any success in attacking a tower/keep? 2 or 3 people will be able to hold off a group of 10-20 with no problem whatsoever with the new upgrades. This will in turn force people to increase the size of their group, so once again encouraging people to run in a ridiculously sized zerg.

If I am understanding you here, the argument is; “This change hurts you more than it helps you because now the ENEMY can defend better too!”

I say again; good.

ACs aren’t overpowered, they’re now as powerful as they were meant to be. That’s all. These claims that 3 people can hold off 25 and that 5 people can hold off 50…that’s just fear mongering and a lot of hyperventilation.

On our BL yesterday, SoR was fighting JQ over Bay at the south gate. We had arrow carts, we had AC operators (15-20?). JQ had more people (40 or so I guess?) and they won. They breached the wall in two spots while also attacking the gate, and created 3 ways in. It took longer, yes; but in the end, they won. You can’t build 5 arrow carts in every single place the enemy can possibly breach; that means the enemy can get in.

Simple logic.

A significant numerical advantage will still win you the fights and the PPT; you’re just going to have to work for it now instead of letting 10 people zerg the door down while the other 20 all /dance and /sleep.

its not fear mongering, i did it before the buff, with a coordinated group, whats to stop uncoordinated groups from doing the same now. I’ve defended hills and garrison with a ratio of 1:4 before (15v70+).

People say change tactics but lets be real, what else is there to do if you can’t ram a keep? treb it? well any keep can safely counter treb from inside their walls exception being garrison to bay keep. Catapults arent going to do you any good considering AC has around the same range now too. So basically you just have to walk away and try again when the enemy has their pants down.

it’s also about the players as well, you might have been able to defend it with superior AC in the back room of the lords, with maybe around 7AC and a couple balistas, while the rest just stall the lord from going down, eventually they’ll dwindle down. (not saying it will work 100% of the time, just saying its one scenario that couldve went well.) It’s true you cant defend every breach, but you can CREATE or find a choke point, which wouldve been the lords room.

Also not sure what you quoted from me as it’s not showing up for me.

YES but now rams and golems are usess or beyound.The get destroyed before ven getting 1 or 2 shots.So why are gates still in this game since only 2 superior acs can take out an infinite ammount of rams golems even before they ddoany damage or get built.

Consider a zerg of 4 0 ppl carry 400 suply wich means 10 rams.They are lucky do bring a paper gate down to 90% agains 2 superior acs and that they are extremely well coordinated at b uilding it instantly wi h still makes them lose sply making the nr of rams availabe even less.
Not to mention 400 suply is ahuge ammount considering you can only have 100 per camp every 5 min only if nobody usesthe suply in the camp anyway before the cap.

Current game mechanics make it imppossible o use rams or golems.Gates have no purpoise whatsoever in this game as it stands.Literally.Everyone claiming the oposite is just living in the clouds.

Aneu.1748:

Or the defence was just exceptionally bad…

Some people’s constitutional inability to admit they’re wrong…it’s just baffling.

The funniest thing about all this they make changes to AC’s (totally not needed whatsoever), when they could be dipping the tip into sorting out skill delay.

Cyril.1486:

I cannot believe for the life of me there are people that actually defend this change. Come on wake up smell the coffee.

No you dont understand. You need to use advanced tactics. L2play.

Cyril.1486:

I cannot believe for the life of me there are people that actually defend this change. Come on wake up smell the coffee, I wanna zerg up some easy WXP.

fixed

Did they remove the siege cap, trebuchets, catapults, and balistas? If not, why are arrow carts such big issue? Because “Everybody Stack!” “Build!” isn’t working for you. This hurts mindless gameplay, why would I defend that?

Jackie.1829:

Cyril.1486:

I cannot believe for the life of me there are people that actually defend this change. Come on wake up smell the coffee.

No you dont understand. You need to use advanced tactics. L2play.

Not advanced, just some.

Dovgan.8605:

This hurts mindless gameplay, why would I defend that?

The problem is not what it hurts.

The problem is what it encourage and buffs over the top.

Anyway, the problem to me it’s just the numbers or the fact that there are no nerfs/buffs elsewhere to balance it out.
Like in siege bunker perk, or Rams/Golems hp/features.

The way I look at it, they’re trying to give smaller numbers of people a chance to fight off large groups. With these new additions, it will force zergs to implement a little more strategy.

The damage increase and range on the arrow carts are going to force more strategy than just zerg balling. Its a fantastic addition, one that I welcome.

As far as on the offensive against these new changes. This may sound strange, but those carts do not have an unlimited range. Rams are not the only way to get into a Keep. Honestly, the only people this is going to hurt, are the people who aren’t very familiar with WvW, or the commanders that gather 60 pugs and run around all day mindlessly taking towers and keeps.

If you’ve got a group of extremely coordinated people, this is a very welcomed upgrade. Yes, coordinated. You might actually have to implement strategy now.

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

Or the defence was just exceptionally bad…

Some people’s constitutional inability to admit they’re wrong…it’s just baffling.

This word…I do not think it means what you think it means.

Dovgan.8605:

Cyril.1486:

I cannot believe for the life of me there are people that actually defend this change. Come on wake up smell the coffee, I wanna zerg up some easy WXP.

fixed

Did they remove the siege cap, trebuchets, catapults, and balistas? If not, why are arrow carts such big issue? Because “Everybody Stack!” “Build!” isn’t working for you. This hurts mindless gameplay, why would I defend that?

LOL You just called RG wxp zergers.

You just took away all value from your posts.

Bones.5762:

its not fear mongering, i did it before the buff, with a coordinated group, whats to stop uncoordinated groups from doing the same now. I’ve defended hills and garrison with a ratio of 1:4 before (15v70+).

I don’t like to play this card, but…seriously, if you held off 70 people with 15…you were playing against upleveled, poorly geared, exceptionally inept players. I don’t mean bad; I mean “Pac-Mac is unbeatable!” bad. Sorry; that’s the only explanation.

People say change tactics but lets be real, what else is there to do if you can’t ram a keep?

I just told you in the previous post; attack from more than one direction at once. It’s blindingly simple.

How would your 15 have protected Garrison from 20 enemies trebbing the wall from Cliffside while at the exact same time another 20 enemies attack the Watergate and another 20 attack the SW gate? The answer is; you would have failed. They’d get in, and there wouldn’t be a kitten thing you could do to stop it…and I even left out 10 of those 70 players you mentioned.

The problem here is all these pseudo commanders. SoR has their fair share too, including some real whoppers who happen to have fan clubs supporting their every inept move, but I digress. These commanders wouldn’t know the difference between tactics and strategy if you clubbed them over the head with it.

Bllade.1029:

The way I look at it, they’re trying to give smaller numbers of people a chance to fight off large groups. With these new additions, it will force zergs to implement a little more strategy.

The damage increase and range on the arrow carts are going to force more strategy than just zerg balling. Its a fantastic addition, one that I welcome.

You’re right about it giving small groups the chance to defend against large groups. The issue is that it gives large groups the ability to defend against anything and everything their opponent could conceivably throw at them.

If all anet wanted to do was buff outmanned defenders, the 80% dmg increase should have been added to the outmanned buff.

Bllade.1029:

The way I look at it, they’re trying to give smaller numbers of people a chance to fight off large groups. With these new additions, it will force zergs to implement a little more strategy.

The damage increase and range on the arrow carts are going to force more strategy than just zerg balling. Its a fantastic addition, one that I welcome.

thing i dont get is, why dont people see the reverse of this? if it helps the smaller number of players, it would also help the superior numbers of players as well by 80%!!

you’ll never be able to capture anything if they cant capture it either because they can apply same tactics you use, and defend it easier because they still have numbers to spare.

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

Or the defence was just exceptionally bad…

Some people’s constitutional inability to admit they’re wrong…it’s just baffling.

This word…I do not think it means what you think it means.

CONSTITUTIONAL (con·sti·tu·tion·al)

1- Of or pertaining to the constitution of a state, organization, etc.

2- Subject to the provisions of such a constitution: a constitutional monarchy.

3- Provided by, in accordance with, or not prohibited by, such a constitution: the constitutional powers of the president; a constitutional law.

4- belonging to or inherent in the character or makeup of a person’s body or mind: a constitutional weakness for sweets.

Okay well, in light of the recent changes and the upcoming meta game changes… Which a surprising amount of people seem to vouch for, I have made a little map explaining what areas to avoid if you want a skirmish fight in the open field.

So this map explains the areas arrowcarts can reach, and tick for 3k+, and being within inaccessible areas of towers. (aka this doesn’t include hard to get to positions etc, but only within the tower and keep walls)

So here, avoid the red areas if you don’t want to be faceraped by arrowcarts, bear in mind map doesn’t calculate for terrain elevation.

http://i.imgur.com/SDR3yB6.jpg

Have fun finding a good fight without arrowcarts.

FractalChaos.6539:

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

Or the defence was just exceptionally bad…

Some people’s constitutional inability to admit they’re wrong…it’s just baffling.

This word…I do not think it means what you think it means.

CONSTITUTIONAL (con·sti·tu·tion·al)

1- Of or pertaining to the constitution of a state, organization, etc.

2- Subject to the provisions of such a constitution: a constitutional monarchy.

3- Provided by, in accordance with, or not prohibited by, such a constitution: the constitutional powers of the president; a constitutional law.

4- belonging to or inherent in the character or makeup of a person’s body or mind: a constitutional weakness for sweets.

Nah you didn’t get it. Why would he admit that he’s wrong when he’s right?
A “constitutional inability” would imply that it’s some sort of character flaw and he’s unwilling to recognize an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary of his opinion. Seems to apply more to those defending the change in this case…

Caliban.3176:

Dovgan.8605:

Cyril.1486:

I cannot believe for the life of me there are people that actually defend this change. Come on wake up smell the coffee, I wanna zerg up some easy WXP.

fixed

Did they remove the siege cap, trebuchets, catapults, and balistas? If not, why are arrow carts such big issue? Because “Everybody Stack!” “Build!” isn’t working for you. This hurts mindless gameplay, why would I defend that?

LOL You just called RG wxp zergers.

You just took away all value from your posts.

Maybe we aren’t watching the same videos. Not sure how that would get past someone with such a keen grasp on things. RG is a great open field guild, they aren’t touting about their siege prowess. They, as I am sure most are, know point caps is the fastest way to accrue WXP, maybe you missed the memo. Not sure where I lost you. Maybe I can type slower.

Kebab.4013:

So here, avoid the red areas if you don’t want to be faceraped by arrowcarts, bear in mind map doesn’t calculate for terrain elevation.

http://i.imgur.com/SDR3yB6.jpg

Have fun finding a good fight without arrowcarts.

Dahahah, well played.

FractalChaos.6539:

Bones.5762:

its not fear mongering, i did it before the buff, with a coordinated group, whats to stop uncoordinated groups from doing the same now. I’ve defended hills and garrison with a ratio of 1:4 before (15v70+).

I don’t like to play this card, but…seriously, if you held off 70 people with 15…you were playing against upleveled, poorly geared, exceptionally inept players. I don’t mean bad; I mean “Pac-Mac is unbeatable!” bad. Sorry; that’s the only explanation.

People say change tactics but lets be real, what else is there to do if you can’t ram a keep?

I just told you in the previous post; attack from more than one direction at once. It’s blindingly simple.

How would your 15 have protected Garrison from 20 enemies trebbing the wall from Cliffside while at the exact same time another 20 enemies attack the Watergate and another 20 attack the SW gate? The answer is; you would have failed. They’d get in, and there wouldn’t be a kitten thing you could do to stop it…and I even left out 10 of those 70 players you mentioned.

The problem here is all these pseudo commanders. SoR has their fair share too, including some real whoppers who happen to have fan clubs supporting their every inept move, but I digress. These commanders wouldn’t know the difference between tactics and strategy if you clubbed them over the head with it.

first off, let cliffside take the NW wall down (or if its the NE i dont remember), because you can DEFEND EVERYTHING from the inner, and watergate is easy to defend with 4players and siege in the right places. You can counter almost all siege with a counter treb from the vista in garrison (please remember this was when SW was still working.)

Also note that we have EVERY gate/wall sieged up to hell, we hit our siege limit, so we would first focus one group, then move to another, then another, it only takes like 1-2mins to wipe a group because when you have superior balista that can demolish the hell out of people, yeah its that easy, but i guess we could be more like you, running around like a chicken with our heads chopped off.

No!! It’s time to nut up or shut up!

Also why is it so hard to believe we played better than them, and its easier to blieve that there were 70+ players running around like idiots? yes, im sure that there were like 15-20 upleveled, but its hard to believe 60players were upleveld toons. My in game experience was all walls on the NW gate were down, the SW gate also broken, but they couldnt break into our garrison either. I have to give credit to Bony Charks from Magumma way back then, because he showed me alot of new counter spots that i didn’t know about.

Also, im sure that there are more stories like mine, but i guess a majority of players are extremely inept like you have so clearly stated.

Dovgan.8605:

Caliban.3176:

Dovgan.8605:

Cyril.1486:

I cannot believe for the life of me there are people that actually defend this change. Come on wake up smell the coffee, I wanna zerg up some easy WXP.

fixed

Did they remove the siege cap, trebuchets, catapults, and balistas? If not, why are arrow carts such big issue? Because “Everybody Stack!” “Build!” isn’t working for you. This hurts mindless gameplay, why would I defend that?

LOL You just called RG wxp zergers.

You just took away all value from your posts.

Maybe we aren’t watching the same videos. Not sure how that would get past someone with such a keen grasp on things. RG is a great open field guild, they aren’t touting about their siege prowess. They, as I am sure most are, know point caps is the fastest way to accrue WXP, maybe you missed the memo. Not sure where I lost you. Maybe I can type slower.

Pretty sure I know RG a bit better than you do and they might not be bragging about their siege capabilities as they do about their open field prowess (no offence) but they are really good in both things. It is impossible for a good open field guild or skirmish guild to be bad at siege. We needed siege to get people out to fight.

Show me 5 Arrow car and a wall, i can face 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 army.