Downed state in WvWvW should be removed
Am I the only one who doesn’t understand the complaint about downstate in WvW?
People will complain about anything.
Downstate is fine. It may need tweaking but the overall idea is a good one.
Overlord Of [NAKY]
SOS Spy Team Commander [SPY]
SOS Spy Team Commander [SPY]
I don’t believe that downstate benefits a larger force over a more skilled (but smaller) force.
A higher skilled, better coordinated group which is outnumbered should benefit more from downstate than an uncoordinated zerg would.
Since the more skilled, more coordinated group is better at focusing targets, supporting each other, and just generally playing the game, when a player is downed for the small force, they should rally very quickly as the group either rezzes them (which they are better at than the zerg) or kills off an opponent for the rally. The groups trying to win with sheer numbers won’t have the coordination to quickly kill off an enemy to force a rally, or to quickly rez their downed forces.
In general, if a “more skilled, but outnumbered” group is losing to a larger zerg with downstate, they would almost certainly have lost anyway (and in much shorter of a time period) if downstate were removed.
I don’t believe that downstate benefits a larger force over a more skilled (but smaller) force.
A higher skilled, better coordinated group which is outnumbered should benefit more from downstate than an uncoordinated zerg would.
Since the more skilled, more coordinated group is better at focusing targets, supporting each other, and just generally playing the game, when a player is downed for the small force, they should rally very quickly as the group either rezzes them (which they are better at than the zerg) or kills off an opponent for the rally. The groups trying to win with sheer numbers won’t have the coordination to quickly kill off an enemy to force a rally, or to quickly rez their downed forces.
In general, if a “more skilled, but outnumbered” group is losing to a larger zerg with downstate, they would almost certainly have lost anyway (and in much shorter of a time period) if downstate were removed.
All you’re really doing is stating that a coordinated group beats an uncoordinated one. There are plenty of coordinated zergs and plenty of uncoordinated small groups. Even within a zerg you can have coordinated 5-man groups assisting each other. So when all else is equal coordination wise, the larger group has numbers + better chances rallying allies… double bonus for them. Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.
I don’t believe that downstate benefits a larger force over a more skilled (but smaller) force.
A higher skilled, better coordinated group which is outnumbered should benefit more from downstate than an uncoordinated zerg would.
Since the more skilled, more coordinated group is better at focusing targets, supporting each other, and just generally playing the game, when a player is downed for the small force, they should rally very quickly as the group either rezzes them (which they are better at than the zerg) or kills off an opponent for the rally. The groups trying to win with sheer numbers won’t have the coordination to quickly kill off an enemy to force a rally, or to quickly rez their downed forces.
In general, if a “more skilled, but outnumbered” group is losing to a larger zerg with downstate, they would almost certainly have lost anyway (and in much shorter of a time period) if downstate were removed.
All you’re really doing is stating that a coordinated group beats an uncoordinated one. There are plenty of coordinated zergs and plenty of uncoordinated small groups. Even within a zerg you can have coordinated 5-man groups assisting each other. So when all else is equal coordination wise, the larger group has numbers + better chances rallying allies… double bonus for them. Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.
But that’s not a problem with the down state. That’s a problem with the fact that they simply have more people than you. Since they have more people than you, if coordination is equal, they’ll be better at anything than you. It’s simple math. If the down state was removed and coordination was equal, the larger group would beat the smaller group every time anyway. If you have some sort of problem with being disadvantaged because you have less people…I don’t know what to tell you, man, that’s the way everything works, both in games and real life.
No one says “I can’t keep conditions on a large group of people by myself, since there are more of them they can cleanse more easily, this is unfair”.
“Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.” – still haven’t seen an argument to support this that isn’t simply “they have more people”.
Removing the down state would make it even easier for burst thieves to take down entire groups by themselves, ever consider that?
(edited by lettucemode.3789)
I don’t believe that downstate benefits a larger force over a more skilled (but smaller) force.
A higher skilled, better coordinated group which is outnumbered should benefit more from downstate than an uncoordinated zerg would.
Since the more skilled, more coordinated group is better at focusing targets, supporting each other, and just generally playing the game, when a player is downed for the small force, they should rally very quickly as the group either rezzes them (which they are better at than the zerg) or kills off an opponent for the rally. The groups trying to win with sheer numbers won’t have the coordination to quickly kill off an enemy to force a rally, or to quickly rez their downed forces.
In general, if a “more skilled, but outnumbered” group is losing to a larger zerg with downstate, they would almost certainly have lost anyway (and in much shorter of a time period) if downstate were removed.
All you’re really doing is stating that a coordinated group beats an uncoordinated one. There are plenty of coordinated zergs and plenty of uncoordinated small groups. Even within a zerg you can have coordinated 5-man groups assisting each other. So when all else is equal coordination wise, the larger group has numbers + better chances rallying allies… double bonus for them. Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.
But that’s not a problem with the down state. That’s a problem with the fact that they simply have more people than you. Since they have more people than you, if coordination is equal, they’ll be better at anything than you. It’s simple math. If you have some sort of problem with being disadvantaged because you have less people…I don’t know what to tell you, man, that’s the way the everything works, both in games and real life.
“Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.” – still haven’t seen an argument to support this that isn’t simply “they have more people”.
Removing the down state would make it even easier for burst thieves to take down entire groups by themselves, ever consider that?
Burst thieves are one of the easiest builds to kill in this game. Really they are.
There is a difference between coordination and skill. Both groups can be coordinated and all things equal 15 will always beat 5 with equal levels of both. With the current downed state, all the coordination you need is “If someone goes down everyone rez them”. Maybe they stability rez, maybe they brute force rez, whatever. It’s just not hard to go near someone hit 1 utility skill or KB then hit F.
“Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.” – still haven’t seen an argument to support this that isn’t simply “they have more people”.
Exactly. People have repeated that statement so often that it seems to be just universally accepted as fact, but I’ve never seen or understood the logic behind the statement. All evidence I’ve seen points to the opposite, that downstate helps a smaller/coordinated group more than anyone else.
What are the reasons people believe downstate encourages “zerg” groups, and that it helps them more than other types of groups?
“Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.” – still haven’t seen an argument to support this that isn’t simply “they have more people”.
Exactly. People have repeated that statement so often that it seems to be just universally accepted as fact, but I’ve never seen or understood the logic behind the statement. All evidence I’ve seen points to the opposite, that downstate helps a smaller/coordinated group more than anyone else.
What are the reasons people believe downstate encourages “zerg” groups, and that it helps them more than other types of groups?
Because the rate at which one get resurrected from downed (and stomped) state scales with the number of people ressurrecting?
Burst thieves are one of the easiest builds to kill in this game. Really they are.
There is a difference between coordination and skill. Both groups can be coordinated and all things equal 15 will always beat 5 with equal levels of both. With the current downed state, all the coordination you need is “If someone goes down everyone rez them”. Maybe they stability rez, maybe they brute force rez, whatever. It’s just not hard to go near someone hit 1 utility skill or KB then hit F.
Stability rezzes have counters, brute force rezzes have counters. If a guardians uses Stand your Ground and 3 people start rezzing, well, unless you’ve got a necro with Well of Corruption, tough luck, that’s smart play. But you’ve forced him to use it, and it won’t be up the next time someone goes down. You play against it the same way you play against someone with Flash in League of Legends. Make them burn it and then get out. Use the time they’re not attacking to to back off, heal up a bit, or even apply pressure on them since they’re sitting there in a tight little clump doing nothing.
You act like rezzing is some impossible thing to counter. All you need is to plan for the situation ahead of time with your skill and trait choices.
(edited by lettucemode.3789)
“Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.” – still haven’t seen an argument to support this that isn’t simply “they have more people”.
Exactly. People have repeated that statement so often that it seems to be just universally accepted as fact, but I’ve never seen or understood the logic behind the statement. All evidence I’ve seen points to the opposite, that downstate helps a smaller/coordinated group more than anyone else.
What are the reasons people believe downstate encourages “zerg” groups, and that it helps them more than other types of groups?
Because the rate at which one get resurrected from downed (and stomped) state scales with the number of people ressurrecting?
A single AoE disable counters that. And that is still just “they have more people”.
If you implement diminishing returns, that still disadvantages small groups because now they have to allocate a higher percentage of their total force to rez someone, meanwhile the other force is beating on them.
“Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.” – still haven’t seen an argument to support this that isn’t simply “they have more people”.
Exactly. People have repeated that statement so often that it seems to be just universally accepted as fact, but I’ve never seen or understood the logic behind the statement. All evidence I’ve seen points to the opposite, that downstate helps a smaller/coordinated group more than anyone else.
What are the reasons people believe downstate encourages “zerg” groups, and that it helps them more than other types of groups?
Because the rate at which one get resurrected from downed (and stomped) state scales with the number of people ressurrecting?
Well, first you’re assuming that a larger force will necessarily do a good job at rezzing. Reality disagrees there as large zergs strongly encourage the idea that “someone else will rez.” Further on that point, the issue there isn’t downstate at all, but the rez cap and rate of healing. Finally, a larger force would also be able to raise players from a dead state at a rate which is sufficient to maintain their numbers as well. Unless you’re arguing for the removal of that resurrection method as well, downstate becomes irrelevant to that argument.
So they did the smart thing: they couldn’t counter your stomp directly because of mist form, so they chose to rez faster than you could stomp. That sounds like smart play to me, and the system is promoting skill. If your team was too tied up to get rid of the rezzers, then either (a) you were too outnumbered to do anything about it, or (b) no one else was paying attention or you weren’t communicating well, meaning that you guys didn’t manage the down state well enough, meaning that the stomp failed.
A larger force is always going to have an advantage over the smaller force, in anything ever, period. Of course a larger force is going to have an advantage when it comes to any mechanic, including down state. The discussion here is about whether or not the down state inherently favors numbers vs. skill, that is, by design. I think enough examples have been given to show that the down state works to the advantage of whatever side handles it better, regardless of size. And eventually, the force becomes so large that no amount of skill can overcome it. That’s just the way it is.
The down state is a core mechanic, a central feature of GW2. It’s not going away, and I don’t think there are any changes that could be made that would favor smaller groups but not larger groups.
First off, I want to make it clear that I’m not asking that the downed state be removed. I’m just asking that they make combat rezzing less effective by either making it slower, or making it interruptable by regular attacks.
Second, here’s the problem with your explanation of the larger group using “skill” when they decided to combat rez during a mist stomp…there is no counter. There is literally nothing I can do to prevent that rez.
After all, I have surely just used my burst to down the guy, so I can’t try to burst his rezzers down. Even if I have CC up, they will just get up and rez the dead guy again. I am basically screwed in this scenario. It makes it nigh impossible for a small group to kill a much larger group that are combat rezzers…even if they greatly beat them in the skill category.
Fast combat rezzing is a mechanic that favors large groups even more than they are already favored. I mean, they already have a big numbers advantage…do they really need more?
Magaera Enflanza (F Human D/D Ele)
[Envy], [Moon]
[Envy], [Moon]
If there were no downed state, everyone would run glass cannon builds and just burst people in WvW…
Oh, we wouldn’t want people to run Glass Cannon in PvP grin
No, we wouldn’t want everyone running glass cannon builds. As it is, there’s currently a good diversity of builds in WvW that actually work, glass cannon included (but not required).
Rallying off PvE mobs gives people a fighting chance when jumped. As fun as ganking is, this mechanic reduces the strength of it and that’s a good thing. It means fights might last a little longer instead of simply being a skill-spam fest where the first to get through their rotation wins.
What next, remove stability and stun breaks? No. The downed state and rallying were clearly defined as features of Guild Wars 2 and add depth to the game. They should remain in the game and in WvW.
“Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.” – still haven’t seen an argument to support this that isn’t simply “they have more people”.
Exactly. People have repeated that statement so often that it seems to be just universally accepted as fact, but I’ve never seen or understood the logic behind the statement. All evidence I’ve seen points to the opposite, that downstate helps a smaller/coordinated group more than anyone else.
What are the reasons people believe downstate encourages “zerg” groups, and that it helps them more than other types of groups?
Because the rate at which one get resurrected from downed (and stomped) state scales with the number of people ressurrecting?
Wow, I’m surprised this actually had to be spelled out. If you’re a 5-man coordinated group going up against say a 15 man group, you take 2 or 3 people down quick due to focus fire and coordination, but then you can’t stomp them fast enough before 5 people from the other group insta-rez them… so you’ve gained no ground. The smaller group doesn’t have the luxury. They can’t afford to have people trying to rally downed players or they put themselves at an even more serious disadvantage.
“Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.” – still haven’t seen an argument to support this that isn’t simply “they have more people”.
Exactly. People have repeated that statement so often that it seems to be just universally accepted as fact, but I’ve never seen or understood the logic behind the statement. All evidence I’ve seen points to the opposite, that downstate helps a smaller/coordinated group more than anyone else.
What are the reasons people believe downstate encourages “zerg” groups, and that it helps them more than other types of groups?
Because the rate at which one get resurrected from downed (and stomped) state scales with the number of people ressurrecting?
A single AoE daze counters that. And that is still just “they have more people”.
A single chaos storm can allow a group of 15 to rez a fully stomped person in it’s duration. Once the downed state happens the “minigame” is simply very low skillcap. It’s get to the spot and spam knockdowns, knockbacks, stability and hit F.
I personally can deal with downed state, I just want two tweaks. I want the PvP downed health amount in WvW and for people to fully rez a stomped player they should have to be out of combat. It should be happening after the battle only.
(edited by Stiv.1820)
“Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.” – still haven’t seen an argument to support this that isn’t simply “they have more people”.
Exactly. People have repeated that statement so often that it seems to be just universally accepted as fact, but I’ve never seen or understood the logic behind the statement. All evidence I’ve seen points to the opposite, that downstate helps a smaller/coordinated group more than anyone else.
What are the reasons people believe downstate encourages “zerg” groups, and that it helps them more than other types of groups?
Because the rate at which one get resurrected from downed (and stomped) state scales with the number of people ressurrecting?
A single AoE daze counters that. And that is still just “they have more people”.
Yeah and then after the daze wears off, they go right back to combat rezzing. Unless you have an insto-cast AoE daze available and stability to stop the downed guy from interrupting your stomp…they are probably just going to rez the downed guy anyway.
Another fix I would be in favor of would be to stop health regen from rezzers while a stomp is in progress…just something to prevent group combat rezzing from making it nigh impossible to kill a larger group that actually uses it.
Magaera Enflanza (F Human D/D Ele)
[Envy], [Moon]
[Envy], [Moon]
The only thing that needs altered is the rally system. It should provide a 1for1 switch, not a 1forEveryone.
For example, currently, 40 vs 40 fight. 10 go down on either side, on what is an even fight. Now, the team that gets the first ‘full down’, wins, as whoever gets it first, gets an insta 10 people up, changing it from a 30vs30, to a 40vs30, in an almost rng act.
It should work something along the lines of:
10 people down on either side, so it’s 30v30, red team get one guy fully down, and it rallies 1 guy. its now 31v29.
So they did the smart thing: they couldn’t counter your stomp directly because of mist form, so they chose to rez faster than you could stomp. That sounds like smart play to me, and the system is promoting skill. If your team was too tied up to get rid of the rezzers, then either (a) you were too outnumbered to do anything about it, or (b) no one else was paying attention or you weren’t communicating well, meaning that you guys didn’t manage the down state well enough, meaning that the stomp failed.
A larger force is always going to have an advantage over the smaller force, in anything ever, period. Of course a larger force is going to have an advantage when it comes to any mechanic, including down state. The discussion here is about whether or not the down state inherently favors numbers vs. skill, that is, by design. I think enough examples have been given to show that the down state works to the advantage of whatever side handles it better, regardless of size. And eventually, the force becomes so large that no amount of skill can overcome it. That’s just the way it is.
The down state is a core mechanic, a central feature of GW2. It’s not going away, and I don’t think there are any changes that could be made that would favor smaller groups but not larger groups.
First off, I want to make it clear that I’m not asking that the downed state be removed. I’m just asking that they make combat rezzing less effective by either making it slower, or making it interruptable by regular attacks.
Second, here’s the problem with your explanation of the larger group using “skill” when they decided to combat rez during a mist stomp…there is no counter. There is literally nothing I can do to prevent that rez.
After all, I have surely just used my burst to down the guy, so I can’t try to burst his rezzers down. Even if I have CC up, they will just get up and rez the dead guy again. I am basically screwed in this scenario. It makes it nigh impossible for a small group to kill a much larger group that are combat rezzers…even if they greatly beat them in the skill category.
Fast combat rezzing is a mechanic that favors large groups even more than they are already favored. I mean, they already have a big numbers advantage…do they really need more?
I noticed that your response is all “I”. Why aren’t other people from your small group coming over to help with their own AoE disables? If you are in a group, then play like you’re in a group and cover your teammate’s stomps and revives. It’s that simple.
“Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.” – still haven’t seen an argument to support this that isn’t simply “they have more people”.
Exactly. People have repeated that statement so often that it seems to be just universally accepted as fact, but I’ve never seen or understood the logic behind the statement. All evidence I’ve seen points to the opposite, that downstate helps a smaller/coordinated group more than anyone else.
What are the reasons people believe downstate encourages “zerg” groups, and that it helps them more than other types of groups?
Because the rate at which one get resurrected from downed (and stomped) state scales with the number of people ressurrecting?
A single AoE daze counters that. And that is still just “they have more people”.
Yeah and then after the daze wears off, they go right back to combat rezzing. Unless you have an insto-cast AoE daze available and stability to stop the downed guy from interrupting your stomp…they are probably just going to rez the downed guy anyway.
Another fix I would be in favor of would be to stop health regen from rezzers while a stomp is in progress…just something to prevent group combat rezzing from making it nigh impossible to kill a larger group that actually uses it.
Just responded to the other guy about this. We were talking about small groups, remember? Now all of a sudden you’ve constructed this specific situation in which you are the only person who can disable these rezzers. Coordinate with your team and get them to disable the rezzers, then you don’t have to stop your stomp at all and they have no time to start rezzing again.
(edited by lettucemode.3789)
So they did the smart thing: they couldn’t counter your stomp directly because of mist form, so they chose to rez faster than you could stomp. That sounds like smart play to me, and the system is promoting skill. If your team was too tied up to get rid of the rezzers, then either (a) you were too outnumbered to do anything about it, or (b) no one else was paying attention or you weren’t communicating well, meaning that you guys didn’t manage the down state well enough, meaning that the stomp failed.
A larger force is always going to have an advantage over the smaller force, in anything ever, period. Of course a larger force is going to have an advantage when it comes to any mechanic, including down state. The discussion here is about whether or not the down state inherently favors numbers vs. skill, that is, by design. I think enough examples have been given to show that the down state works to the advantage of whatever side handles it better, regardless of size. And eventually, the force becomes so large that no amount of skill can overcome it. That’s just the way it is.
The down state is a core mechanic, a central feature of GW2. It’s not going away, and I don’t think there are any changes that could be made that would favor smaller groups but not larger groups.
First off, I want to make it clear that I’m not asking that the downed state be removed. I’m just asking that they make combat rezzing less effective by either making it slower, or making it interruptable by regular attacks.
Second, here’s the problem with your explanation of the larger group using “skill” when they decided to combat rez during a mist stomp…there is no counter. There is literally nothing I can do to prevent that rez.
After all, I have surely just used my burst to down the guy, so I can’t try to burst his rezzers down. Even if I have CC up, they will just get up and rez the dead guy again. I am basically screwed in this scenario. It makes it nigh impossible for a small group to kill a much larger group that are combat rezzers…even if they greatly beat them in the skill category.
Fast combat rezzing is a mechanic that favors large groups even more than they are already favored. I mean, they already have a big numbers advantage…do they really need more?
I noticed that your response is all “I”. Why aren’t other people from your small group coming over to help with their own AoE disables? If you are in a group, then play like you’re in a group and cover your teammate’s stomps and revives. It’s that simple.
Because when you are 5 vs. 10 or 15, you can’t afford to have all of your group, or even some of your group, stop fighting and waste their CDs to try to stomp one dude. You obviously are not going to win the fight like that.
That’s just how it is…you can win against a larger group by exploiting the smaller group’s mobility so that they never get to use their zerg damage against you. Trying to stomp a player FORCES you to give up your mobility advantage and is very dangerous for a small group.
In fact, it’s usually a better idea to try to just damage the downed player to death…but combat rezzing makes that impossible as well.
Now, I have no problem with one guy doing this because usually the other 4 can keep enough of the zerg occupied…but if you’re asking for more than 1 to do this, it’s like a death sentence.
Magaera Enflanza (F Human D/D Ele)
[Envy], [Moon]
[Envy], [Moon]
So they did the smart thing: they couldn’t counter your stomp directly because of mist form, so they chose to rez faster than you could stomp. That sounds like smart play to me, and the system is promoting skill. If your team was too tied up to get rid of the rezzers, then either (a) you were too outnumbered to do anything about it, or (b) no one else was paying attention or you weren’t communicating well, meaning that you guys didn’t manage the down state well enough, meaning that the stomp failed.
A larger force is always going to have an advantage over the smaller force, in anything ever, period. Of course a larger force is going to have an advantage when it comes to any mechanic, including down state. The discussion here is about whether or not the down state inherently favors numbers vs. skill, that is, by design. I think enough examples have been given to show that the down state works to the advantage of whatever side handles it better, regardless of size. And eventually, the force becomes so large that no amount of skill can overcome it. That’s just the way it is.
The down state is a core mechanic, a central feature of GW2. It’s not going away, and I don’t think there are any changes that could be made that would favor smaller groups but not larger groups.
First off, I want to make it clear that I’m not asking that the downed state be removed. I’m just asking that they make combat rezzing less effective by either making it slower, or making it interruptable by regular attacks.
Second, here’s the problem with your explanation of the larger group using “skill” when they decided to combat rez during a mist stomp…there is no counter. There is literally nothing I can do to prevent that rez.
After all, I have surely just used my burst to down the guy, so I can’t try to burst his rezzers down. Even if I have CC up, they will just get up and rez the dead guy again. I am basically screwed in this scenario. It makes it nigh impossible for a small group to kill a much larger group that are combat rezzers…even if they greatly beat them in the skill category.
Fast combat rezzing is a mechanic that favors large groups even more than they are already favored. I mean, they already have a big numbers advantage…do they really need more?
I think people can certainly say that healing rate/rez cap needs some adjustment. I think it’s too easy to get players back up from downstate in WvW right now (PvE doesn’t need adjustment, sPvP has their own set of challenges). Frankly, the fact that someone can walk into my arrow cart fire, rez up their teammate, and carry on like nothing happened just seems wrong to me.
But downstate does not meaningfully affect outcomes right now. In fact, as I detailed earlier, it favors a smaller (but more coordinated) group more than a larger (uncoordinated) group. It also tends to extend fights, which allows smaller forces to gather reinforcements, or mobilize to a new strategy.
I don’t buy that, Creslin, what you’re saying contradicts my own experience. My guildies and I pull it off all the time, it is not as hard as you make it seem. It takes 1 second for a warrior fighting someone else to strafe 5 feet to the right and drop “Fear me.” It takes me 1 second on my necro to drop a fear mark if a teammate asks for it. We pay attention to where people got downed. It doesn’t require a complete disengagement from whoever you’re fighting.
The only thing that needs altered is the rally system. It should provide a 1for1 switch, not a 1forEveryone.
For example, currently, 40 vs 40 fight. 10 go down on either side, on what is an even fight. Now, the team that gets the first ‘full down’, wins, as whoever gets it first, gets an insta 10 people up, changing it from a 30vs30, to a 40vs30, in an almost rng act.
It should work something along the lines of:
10 people down on either side, so it’s 30v30, red team get one guy fully down, and it rallies 1 guy. its now 31v29.
I think there needs to be a cap, but not a 1 for 1 cap. Personally, I’d like to see a cap around 3 (maybe as high as 5, but that’s starting to push it).
Regardless of whether you like the downed state in general, the rallying off a mob death absolutely needs to go. It is unbelievably ridiculous that someone can rally just because one of the countless mobs in the wvw zone got taken low by one of the countless aoes on almost every class.
Out of Attunement – D/D Ele
Maguuma
Maguuma
But downstate does not meaningfully affect outcomes right now. In fact, as I detailed earlier, it favors a smaller (but more coordinated) group more than a larger (uncoordinated) group.
Downed state does indeed affect the outcome of battles. I’ll give you a perfect example. I once engaged in a 1v3 fight against players trying to take a supply camp. It was everything I could do to stay alive while focusing on one of the enemy to take them down. Every time I got one down, I couldn’t stomp them because I was having to move around too much to avoid attacks, and of course one of them would disengage and rally their downed teammate. Sure I’d interrupted them once or twice, but I couldn’t completely stop them from rallying without putting myself at too much risk. I eventually had to flee and let them have the camp. So yes, downed state most certainly kept me from winning that fight.
And again, you’re making the (faulty) assumption that the smaller group will be more coordinated. Downed state favors any group that’s coordinated whether they are small or larger, but the larger the group the more downed state gives them an advantage.
It also tends to extend fights, which allows smaller forces to gather reinforcements, or mobilize to a new strategy.
Yeah I just love those hour long keep defenses where you’re severely outnumbered but no matter how much skill and coordination you have there’s no chance of stopping the attackers because every time you drain someone’s health to zero they just get insta-rezed.
But downstate does not meaningfully affect outcomes right now. In fact, as I detailed earlier, it favors a smaller (but more coordinated) group more than a larger (uncoordinated) group.
Downed state does indeed affect the outcome of battles. I’ll give you a perfect example. I once engaged in a 1v3 fight against players trying to take a supply camp. It was everything I could do to stay alive while focusing on one of the enemy to take them down. Every time I got one down, I couldn’t stomp them because I was having to move around too much to avoid attacks, and of course one of them would disengage and rally their downed teammate. Sure I’d interrupted them once or twice, but I couldn’t completely stop them from rallying without putting myself at too much risk. I eventually had to flee and let them have the camp. So yes, downed state most certainly kept me from winning that fight.
And again, you’re making the (faulty) assumption that the smaller group will be more coordinated. Downed state favors any group that’s coordinated whether they are small or larger, but the larger the group the more downed state gives them an advantage.
So now you’re changing the story to the ultra-rare 1vX (where X is a very small number) situation. If it weren’t for downstate, you probably would have died before killing all three. As long as one of them still would have ended up living, the outcome is the same. Furthermore, the meaningless interaction at a supply camp where you obviously didn’t bother trying to call for help (which in a fight of the length you described would have easily allowed to reach you in time) which is only possible because of downstate.
But yet again, you’re making the (absurd) assumption that you “should have won that fight.” There’s no reason to think that other than your own ego. I’ve made absolutely no assumptions about groups being more or less coordinated. The only scenario that people have legitimately proposed that could be affected is the one where a smaller group with greater ability faces a larger group with lesser ability. In all other scenarios, the complaints about downstate are moot because a larger group with greater ability, an equal sized group with greater ability, or a larger group with equal ability are all going to result in the same thing, with or without downstate.
Although I will say that many of the people complaining about downed state aren’t the ones that are having their “superior skill” mitigated by it, they’re the people are are bad at manipulating the downed state. You can’t attempt to ignore an entire mechanic and then say “But really I’m skillful, this thing I’m bad at is just holding me back!”
Ding! Ding!
Actually if you have a fight where you are winning 15 against 35 and and are in the process of cleaning up, then one random person who was tagging along rallies them, it’s a crappy mechanic. Especially since they will start with half health, no conditions and their short cooldowns all refreshed.
Now, introduce a 20v20, guild versus guild system with a limited time format and I will change my opinion.
If you’re leaving so many downed enemies around that rally makes a difference then you’re being sloppy. When you down them, make sure you have at least someone to finish the job.
Meh. When you are fighting while that outnumbered you typically have no choice but to give up ground and leave behind people that you have downed. That’s okay with me (personally) as it’s the price you pay for being outnumbered.
What sucks is when you have to give up ground to a zerg and they revive the people that you have stomped.
As a reply to some of the other comments above, I definitely feel that downedstate health and revive rates are something to be looked at. I really don’t have strong feelings there one way or the other.
[Anonymous Defender] on Youtube
Solo & Roaming Group WvW Movies
Solo & Roaming Group WvW Movies
“Removing the downed state will actually give smaller/coordinated groups more of a chance to beat the larger group.” – still haven’t seen an argument to support this that isn’t simply “they have more people”.
Exactly. People have repeated that statement so often that it seems to be just universally accepted as fact, but I’ve never seen or understood the logic behind the statement. All evidence I’ve seen points to the opposite, that downstate helps a smaller/coordinated group more than anyone else.
What are the reasons people believe downstate encourages “zerg” groups, and that it helps them more than other types of groups?
Because the rate at which one get resurrected from downed (and stomped) state scales with the number of people ressurrecting?
True, true. Fortunately, zerglings don’t often take advantage of that. Now, if you run across a larger group of coordinated people they will take advantage of that. But, a large coordinated group beating a smaller coordinated group is the natural order of things.
[Anonymous Defender] on Youtube
Solo & Roaming Group WvW Movies
Solo & Roaming Group WvW Movies
The downed state and rallying were clearly defined as features of Guild Wars 2 and add depth to the game. They should remain in the game and in WvW.
No Downed removes depth from the game because DS fundamentally limits the effectiveness of small groups to deal with zergs. In GW2, you need a zerg to counter a zerg (or siege weapons), and this fact is a fundamental flaw of the game. In DAOC, mindless zerging could be countered by a small group of well-coordinated players, and was key to the creation of the DAOC 8man group-v-group scene which thrived for almost 10 years.
In my view, WVW is already becoming stale after a few months because the current design of GW2 overly rewards mindless zerging over skilful small group play.
Downed state makes death meaningless and rewards stupid play, 2 things that you should never find in a PVP game worth a damn. GW2 already has free instant teleportation and fast map travel, downed state is completely superfluous to the core game.
It’s fine for PVE but the longer it remains in PVP, the more the game suffers.
downed state is bad for PVP
So now you’re changing the story to the ultra-rare 1vX (where X is a very small number) situation. If it weren’t for downstate, you probably would have died before killing all three. As long as one of them still would have ended up living, the outcome is the same. Furthermore, the meaningless interaction at a supply camp where you obviously didn’t bother trying to call for help (which in a fight of the length you described would have easily allowed to reach you in time) which is only possible because of downstate.
I wasn’t “changing the story”, I was refuting your blanket statement that downed state doesn’t affect outcomes. It does. I’m not sure why you assume I would have died in that fight if it weren’t for downed state… if they weren’t able to rally the ones I downed I could have won through sheer attrition. It’s because of downed state that I had no chance whatsoever. Also, I did broadcast in map chat that the supply camp was being attacked, but nobody responded.
But yet again, you’re making the (absurd) assumption that you “should have won that fight.” There’s no reason to think that other than your own ego.
Yeah my ego and the fact that I was able to down an enemy player a few times and they didn’t down me. Nice personal attack though… typical.
No, res should stay. But the logical solution should be people who are ressing should take twice the damage because they’re essentially letting their guard down as the apply first aid. They’re literally weaponless and on their knees.
There should be checks and balances. A small group should not be able to stand under an AOE and res someone with complete disregard. If they want to res, there should be a down side to it and take some coordination to do it.
No, res should stay. But the logical solution should be people who are ressing should take twice the damage because they’re essentially letting their guard down as the apply first aid. They’re literally weaponless and on their knees.
There should be checks and balances. A small group should not be able to stand under an AOE and res someone with complete disregard. If they want to res, there should be a down side to it and take some coordination to do it.
Aaaaaand, after this fix, ppl start to not ressing anyone…
No, res should stay. But the logical solution should be people who are ressing should take twice the damage because they’re essentially letting their guard down as the apply first aid. They’re literally weaponless and on their knees.
There should be checks and balances. A small group should not be able to stand under an AOE and res someone with complete disregard. If they want to res, there should be a down side to it and take some coordination to do it.
Aaaaaand, after this fix, ppl start to not ressing anyone…
Well, that’s too bad, then. They’ll just get wiped.
Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
As usual it comes down to, some classes down state>other classes. I could care less if it was there or not tbh.
No, res should stay. But the logical solution should be people who are ressing should take twice the damage because they’re essentially letting their guard down as the apply first aid. They’re literally weaponless and on their knees.
There should be checks and balances. A small group should not be able to stand under an AOE and res someone with complete disregard. If they want to res, there should be a down side to it and take some coordination to do it.
Aaaaaand, after this fix, ppl start to not ressing anyone…
Well, that’s too bad, then. They’ll just get wiped.
Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Not only they, you will get wiped too since ppl won’t res you…
No, res should stay. But the logical solution should be people who are ressing should take twice the damage because they’re essentially letting their guard down as the apply first aid. They’re literally weaponless and on their knees.
There should be checks and balances. A small group should not be able to stand under an AOE and res someone with complete disregard. If they want to res, there should be a down side to it and take some coordination to do it.
Aaaaaand, after this fix, ppl start to not ressing anyone…
Well, that’s too bad, then. They’ll just get wiped.
Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Not only they, you will get wiped too since ppl won’t res you…
That’s working under the assumption that you can’t outplay the other side. The original argument is predicated on the fact that the current system favors the side with more numbers. The implicit argument is that a smaller group finds it hard if not impossible to “outplay” the zerg due to the res.
Doubling the damage of the people ressing is a means to address that. It gives the smaller side a way to outplay the other side.
As it stands right now if, nothing is changed, the smaller side will get wiped anyway because there’s no way to out kill the zerg faster than they can res, so I don’t see how your argument is of any concern.
No, res should stay. But the logical solution should be people who are ressing should take twice the damage because they’re essentially letting their guard down as the apply first aid. They’re literally weaponless and on their knees.
There should be checks and balances. A small group should not be able to stand under an AOE and res someone with complete disregard. If they want to res, there should be a down side to it and take some coordination to do it.
Reviving already does this to professions who have mobility based defense, implementing a statistical debuff would detriment those with stat based defense as well, but double down on the pain for those with mobility based defense.
Reviving already does this to professions who have mobility based defense, implementing a statistical debuff would detriment those with stat based defense as well, but double down on the pain for those with mobility based defense.
That’s the whole point. There should be a penalty so that numbers cannot simply overwhelm the other side so decisively…
And that’s what you have mesmers and guardians for.
Just a point about small group vs zergs…
The only time you can aford to stake people is with quickness, if there is a break in the action (they retreat a little), or if you get a critical mass downed.
We bomb zergs, a lot. Wasting 3-6 seconds with a giant “please someone come kill shot me” disco ball in your hand is going to get you wiped. You tag the downed people to keep them from healing and punish anyone that comes to rez. They bleed out eventually.
That being said, you tend to notice 10 downed people throwing rocks for 800 a pop. Or they tag a deer and half of them are back on their feet.
Which is why bads love the downed state.
OINK – Devona’s Rest
Mesmer-Thief
http://www.youtube.com/user/Axcelerion?feature=watch – Small group videos
Mesmer-Thief
http://www.youtube.com/user/Axcelerion?feature=watch – Small group videos
No, res should stay. But the logical solution should be people who are ressing should take twice the damage because they’re essentially letting their guard down as the apply first aid. They’re literally weaponless and on their knees.
There should be checks and balances. A small group should not be able to stand under an AOE and res someone with complete disregard. If they want to res, there should be a down side to it and take some coordination to do it.
Aaaaaand, after this fix, ppl start to not ressing anyone…
Well, that’s too bad, then. They’ll just get wiped.
Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Not only they, you will get wiped too since ppl won’t res you…
That’s working under the assumption that you can’t outplay the other side. The original argument is predicated on the fact that the current system favors the side with more numbers. The implicit argument is that a smaller group finds it hard if not impossible to “outplay” the zerg due to the res.
Doubling the damage of the people ressing is a means to address that. It gives the smaller side a way to outplay the other side.
As it stands right now if, nothing is changed, the smaller side will get wiped anyway because there’s no way to out kill the zerg faster than they can res, so I don’t see how your argument is of any concern.
How will the smaller group res themselves if you make such a penalty? It will be harder for them…
Maybe, the outmanned server gets some buff, so they can res easier, but what you suggested is problematic.
(edited by Avalon.4809)
Woah there pony!
Am I missing something, or is it not the same rules for everyone? WTH are people moaning about for goodness sake?
If you don’t like the game, play something else, no???
[MM]Jessopia – Soft and Very Squishy – Part of Gunnars Hold Community
www.gunnars-hold.eu
www.gunnars-hold.eu
Woah there pony!
Am I missing something, or is it not the same rules for everyone? WTH are people moaning about for goodness sake?
If you don’t like the game, play something else, no???
Well, can’t you make more usefull comment?
So many positive or negative comments. There’s no Voting system unfortunately. There’s definitely some people out there who doesn’t want to comment but either agree or disagree with the discussion as well… I wish we could’ve put up a poll and see what percentage wants downed state to be gone in wvw- I’m betting you, it will be over 50%
Onurx – Elementalist – Affinity [BADS]
Sea of Sorrows
Sea of Sorrows
Second, here’s the problem with your explanation of the larger group using “skill” when they decided to combat rez during a mist stomp…there is no counter. There is literally nothing I can do to prevent that rez.
If you had a friend willing to spend 3/4 of a second to throw poison on him, though…
To me, “coordinated” group means more than just “1-2-3-spike.”
Nemain The Eyeless · [JOY] · Tarnished Coast · http://tcwvw.com
im all for removeing down state
But downstate does not meaningfully affect outcomes right now. In fact, as I detailed earlier, it favors a smaller (but more coordinated) group more than a larger (uncoordinated) group.
Downed state does indeed affect the outcome of battles. I’ll give you a perfect example. I once engaged in a 1v3 fight against players trying to take a supply camp. It was everything I could do to stay alive while focusing on one of the enemy to take them down. Every time I got one down, I couldn’t stomp them because I was having to move around too much to avoid attacks, and of course one of them would disengage and rally their downed teammate. Sure I’d interrupted them once or twice, but I couldn’t completely stop them from rallying without putting myself at too much risk. I eventually had to flee and let them have the camp. So yes, downed state most certainly kept me from winning that fight.
And again, you’re making the (faulty) assumption that the smaller group will be more coordinated. Downed state favors any group that’s coordinated whether they are small or larger, but the larger the group the more downed state gives them an advantage.
So now you’re changing the story to the ultra-rare 1vX (where X is a very small number) situation. If it weren’t for downstate, you probably would have died before killing all three. As long as one of them still would have ended up living, the outcome is the same. Furthermore, the meaningless interaction at a supply camp where you obviously didn’t bother trying to call for help (which in a fight of the length you described would have easily allowed to reach you in time) which is only possible because of downstate.
But yet again, you’re making the (absurd) assumption that you “should have won that fight.” There’s no reason to think that other than your own ego. I’ve made absolutely no assumptions about groups being more or less coordinated. The only scenario that people have legitimately proposed that could be affected is the one where a smaller group with greater ability faces a larger group with lesser ability. In all other scenarios, the complaints about downstate are moot because a larger group with greater ability, an equal sized group with greater ability, or a larger group with equal ability are all going to result in the same thing, with or without downstate.
I assure you, as someone who runs solo looking for 1v1’s and 1vX in World vs World, it is not rare..and the down state has screwed me more times then I can count.
I’ve taken groups of 3 on, I’ve downed them, but couldn’t finish the kill..why? Because I have to avoid getting destroyed by 2 other people….Sometimes I can get close, but then I’ll get CCed (because I have 1 stability available to me, and it’s an elite) or I won’t get it off in time because one person will res.
If you’ve soloed at all you’ve experienced this in PvP…It’s insanely frustrating to have a 10 minute fight against 3 people only to never be able to fully take them down..Because the Down state is bloody moronic.
Sure if you hump zergs like a baddie, Down state is probably the greatest thing in the world to you, You probably think instant ressing an massive group of people because someone killed a rabbit off to the side is the most amazing skillful thing in the world…However for us vets of games like DAOC and Warhammer, We find it incredibly unskillful, and frankly the worst mechanic we’ve seen in an MMO to date.
It rewards being a zerg humping baddie, or playing a certain class.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Xsorus/videos?view=0
Natures Ninja and Pain Inverter – Ranger PvP movies
http://www.twitch.tv/xsorovos
Natures Ninja and Pain Inverter – Ranger PvP movies
http://www.twitch.tv/xsorovos
Downed state is fine imo, but smaller groups can easily beat larger groups if they are organized. We had about a 20 man guild group going and we knocked out an 50-60 IoJ zerg that we ran into. Bigger is not always better.
| Maguuma | [KEK] | GvG Relic & Historian |
Notorious Nevermore – Guardian
Notorious Nevermore – Guardian
To the people who say downed doesnt give any advantage to a smaller group versus a larger group:
I was in a group of 10, we killed 15-20 from one server, then 15-20 from the 2nd opposing server. We used Rally between the groups in the 5-10 second window where 1 group wiped, and the 2nd group came.
Downed state should stay in WvW.
Commander Silvannas
“Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack.” Sun Tzu
“Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack.” Sun Tzu
I notice a lot of these people that oppose downed state use 1vMany scenarios. Of course the larger group will use it better then you in those situation. Downed state doesn’t become useful until you have an ally.
And what meaningful task are you performing alone? Killing sentries and dolyaks? Sure there’s scouting, but getting ganked is an occupational hazard for a scout.
Leave your green tunic and master sword at the door, because in WvW, you’re not the hero, you’re a soldier.
Registered Altaholic
Part-time Kittenposter
Part-time Kittenposter
I assure you, as someone who runs solo looking for 1v1’s and 1vX in World vs World, it is not rare..and the down state has screwed me more times then I can count.
If you run around alone all the time, of course you’re not going to see the upside of a team-focused mechanic.
~
Downed state story time!
I’m in a 2v4. I get downed. Two of them rush over to try to stomp me, but I manage to stall them. Meanwhile, my ally downs and stomps another enemy. I rally, we fight back and win.
Seems to be working as intended.
~
I’m in a 1v1 against a ranger. There’s a friendly tower nearby, so I’m trying to lead him towards it so the NPCs can save my butt. He downs me. I figure I can get a scout or guard NPC to save me if I port, but I’ve gotta drag it out a bit so I that my #3 skill (the stealth; stops a finisher if you time it right) comes off of cooldown. So we’re doing the usual 1-2-3-port thing I’ve practiced a million times by now. Except he surprises me with quickness.
Honestly, that’s also totally working as intended. He beat me with superior play.
~
I chase and down a guardian in the river near the borderlands south camp. He pops his knockback bubble thing. His big area attack ends up aggroing some critters. They begin nibbling on him while I stand there and laugh.
Also totally working as intended.
Nemain The Eyeless · [JOY] · Tarnished Coast · http://tcwvw.com
(edited by ASP.8093)